House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 15th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

I sincerely wish it were possible to carry this Bill over into the next Session, because there is no doubt whatever that it has overwhelming support in this House in all parties and, I guess, even among the hereditary Peers—but it is not within the power of the House to do that. The Companion to the Standing Orders is quite clear. I reassure my noble friend that if I should be unfortunate enough, despite having been first in the ballot, not to get my Bill on to the statute book this year, despite the wonderful support that it has had, I shall bring in exactly the same Bill in the next Session of Parliament. I know it will succeed some time. It is just a matter of persistence, and I can be extremely persistent if required.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, it might be for the benefit of the House if I speak to my Amendments 58, 59 and 60, which my noble friend Lord Strathclyde mentioned in his speech. I am glad I am now following the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. I do not have my name down to 53 amendments, as he claimed. That was a very misleading statement. He also derided the amendment relating to female hereditary Peers. There is a slightly deeper reason for that. My name is not to that amendment, but I think my noble friend Lord Trefgarne, who will doubtless speak for himself on this matter, has introduced a Bill to change the rules regarding succession to hereditary peerages. I believe that it should be the eldest child. If the eldest child of the monarch should succeed, so should the eldest child of a Peer succeed. I would support any Bill in that direction.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

There will be people outside watching this debate. Will Members declare an interest at the beginning of their contribution if they are hereditary Peers so that people understand exactly where people are coming from in this debate?

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, that is not a declarable interest, but I think all those who are interested enough to listen to this debate will know that I am a hereditary Peer, and it does not take much looking up on Google to decipher whether a Peer is a hereditary.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, also said that he did not want me to speak. It was not until, I think, the 42nd minute that I was allowed to get to my feet, so I have not been delaying the Bill.

The noble Lord also mentioned patronage, which is of great interest to my noble friend Lord Cormack. I am sorry that he has changed sides. He will recall that, on 10 November 1999, in the other place he said:

“I believe without equivocation … that the House of Lords will be better for the 92”.


He raised another point a little earlier in his speech:

“We are witnessing a crude exercise of patronage”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/11/1999; col. 1200.]


That was the patronage of the then Prime Minister Mr Blair, and I wonder what my noble friend thought of the patronage of Mr David Cameron in his Dissolution list when he ceased to be Prime Minister. That is why my noble friend Lord Strathclyde had one of his many eureka moments—this time it was in the bath yesterday morning, but he has had a number of them—and it is also why I tabled Amendment 58, which requires the setting up of a statutory appointments commission. I go into more detail than my noble friend Lord Strathclyde—I set out exactly what I want.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Does my noble friend not see the irony of a hereditary Peer arguing against patronage, given that all hereditary Peers are here as a result of patronage given some generations ago? As to the image of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde in his bath, does he not think that this matter requires rather longer consideration than the time he might have spent in his bath?

[The Earl of Caithness]

We are giving it consideration. It was that eureka moment in the bath that has prompted this debate. My noble friend Lord Forsyth knows full well my position on hereditary Peers. I do not think that they should be here, and I also think that this ought to be an elected House. However, in 1999 there was a binding-in-honour agreement that the hereditary Peers would stay here until stage 2 of House of Lords reform. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, never refers to that and I can quite understand why, but to us it was a fundamental part of the agreement. If I am being criticised for standing up for a binding agreement and principle, so be it, and I am very sad that other noble Lords do not take the same principled view on the matter.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Far from it being a noble quest back in 1999, those of us who were in the other place at the time seem to recollect that it was a rather squalid agreement to preserve the neck of the Conservative Party.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, that is the noble Lord’s interpretation of the agreement. I was not party to it, but it was introduced by the then Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, and it was binding in Privy Council terms on all of us who took part in that debate. That was a binding commitment. I have tabled an amendment that we shall come to later to try to help the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, get to the same position that I want to get to, which is to get rid of the hereditary Peers in this House.

Perhaps I may return to my amendments. I set out in quite considerable detail how the House of Lords statutory appointments commission should work. It will come as no surprise to my noble friend Lord Young on the Front Bench because he will recognise the details. They come from Schedules 5 and 6 to the 2012 Bill, which, sadly, failed in another place. I would have supported it had it come to this House. His name was on that Bill, as indeed was Danny Alexander’s, so I presume that the Liberal party still supports a statutory appointments commission, and I look forward to getting the support of its Members for this.

I do something slightly different from my noble friend. I set out that there should be a House of Lords appointments commission, and, equally and importantly, that there should be a Speakers’ committee comprising 13 members, as designed in 2012, to oversee the statutory appointments commission. It was drafted by a government draftsman, so I will not go into any detail, but I hope that the House will give this consideration. As my noble friend Lord Strathclyde said, there would be a lacuna. When the hereditary Peers go, it would be a much better arrangement if there were a totally independent committee to look at all appointments. My amendment covers all that. Proposed new subsection (4) in Amendment 58 says that it should come into operation,

“on a statutory basis, with the role of screening, selecting and recommending all persons for appointment to the House of Lords”.

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

Does the noble Earl recall that he advanced this argument at length in Committee on 23 November 2018? Does he also recall that the Companion says at paragraph 8.138:

“Arguments fully deployed either in Committee of the whole House or in Grand Committee should not be repeated at length on report”?


What does he have to say to that?

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I raised this amendment in Committee and, as with many amendments tabled in Committee, I have brought it forward again on Report. Where I disagree with the noble Lord is in him saying that I raised it at length; it was a very short speech.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[The Earl of Caithness]

Yes, I read it too, and I remember saying it, so it is no good pointing and waving papers at me. My noble friend Lord Strathclyde has raised other points that were not mentioned in Committee and are worthy of debate and, on that basis, I support his amendment.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I will speak for only a few moments. I support the amendment and very much hope that it will become part of this Bill if it reaches the statute book, which, naturally, I hope it will not. Just a few moments ago, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, appeared to deploy what I believe he considers to be—

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[Lord Rennard (LD)]

My Lords, I shall be brief, as I believe all other noble Lords should be at this stage of consideration of the Bill. It is the fifth day in this Session of consideration of the Bill, and anyone looking at it will be quite amazed that this talented group of people has spent five days considering a one-page Bill consisting of just 231 words, which takes less than two minutes to read. It is of course a Bill that has the overwhelming support of Members of this House, which has been tested a number of times in its earlier stages. Overwhelming support has been demonstrated by this House for the principle of the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott.

The Bill is also entirely consistent with, and complementary to, the proposals of the Burns report. Indeed, without this Bill making further progress and being enacted, the report might undermine the principles of this House because it would see a reduction in Members and a consequent increase in the proportion of hereditary Members, unless we do something to halt these ridiculous by-elections.

Over three days in Committee we looked at nine pages of amendments to this one-page Bill. A week ago, 11 pages of amendments were tabled, and now, thanks largely to the efforts of a very small number of hereditary Peers, we are looking at 23 pages of amendments to a one-page Bill. Amendment 59 on its own is a seven-page amendment to a one-page Bill. Therefore, to avoid repetition, I suggest that in each grouping we consider the dictionary definition of the word “amendment”:

“A minor change or addition designed to improve a text, piece of legislation, etc”.


Most of the amendments on the Marshalled List are not anywhere near what might be described as being either minor or intended to improve the legislation. They are intended to wreck it, filibuster and prevent it making progress. They are certainly not minor and they do not improve the text.

I think it brings the House into disrepute that, once again, a small number of Members are preventing the overwhelming majority of the House allowing the Bill to be expedited and preventing the important next Bill, on cohabitation rights, being considered properly. The purpose behind most of the amendments is clearly to delay discussion, filibuster the debate and prevent progress on this issue. I believe we should complete Report today and, as soon as possible, allow the House of Commons to democratically consider the Bill. We are debating issues that are barely relevant to many of the amendments simply to prevent Members of the House of Commons being able to consider the Bill.

We should no longer waste time. We should seek to conclude this stage today and take the next steps to allow the House of Commons to consider this very important and worthy Bill.

[The Earl of Caithness]

Before the noble Lord sits down, will he say anything about the amendment that we are discussing? The question is: does he support, as his party did in coalition, a statutory appointments commission?

[Lord Rennard]

The noble Earl is well aware of our position in support of having a properly constituted appointments commission on a statutory basis, but that is not the purpose of the Bill. The purpose of the amendment seeking to put forward that idea, which we have long supported, is simply to prevent proper consideration of the abolition of hereditary Peers’ by-elections, which continue to bring the House into disrepute. Such interventions seeking to delay progress are further bringing the House into disrepute.

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[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, this amendment is largely self-explanatory but I believe it deals with some of the concerns that have been expressed. Any political party that does not wish to take part in the process of electing hereditary Peers would not have to do so if the amendment were agreed. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I rise to support my noble friend’s amendment and to speak to Amendment 6, which is similar to that of my noble friend. My noble friend’s amendment asks that vacancies be spread to other parties. I do not believe that that should necessarily be the case and that, if it helps reduce the numbers in the House, a party need not take up a vacancy. When the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, asked us to declare an interest, I hoped that I might be able to misquote Shakespeare. Some are born with peerages; some have peerages thrust upon them, and some achieve peerages. The great advantage of being a hereditary Peer is that everybody knows why I got my peerage. The other two categories are still open to debate.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend said that he wanted to speak to Amendment 6. That has been ungrouped and is in the next selection.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My noble friend is absolutely right, but I was trying for the convenience of the House to speed things up a bit. If we talked to both amendments now, as I have done, it might be helpful.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, perhaps I may now be allowed to join this debate. I said in my opening remarks that I had not spoken in this debate at all; I had tabled one small amendment on which I was about to reply. If my noble friend Lord Cormack thinks that what he did was a clever little ploy, he has another think coming. As a result of that, I shall now speak on every single amendment that I can. It was outrageous for those who support this Bill to deny me, as the mover of the previous amendment, an opportunity to reply, particularly when the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, had electrified the debate on the purposes of the Bill and, frankly, had shot the fox of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, in explaining exactly what its motivation was. That is why I am deeply shocked that so many Peers voted against that amendment, which would have provided for a statutory appointments commission.

I would like to calm things down while we go through the rest of the amendments. When the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, asked Peers to declare whether they were hereditary Peers, I rather cheered that he could not tell the difference. That is the point. I know exactly why I am here. I am here as a result of legislation passed at the end of the last century and by election. I am an elected hereditary Peer under law. More than 200 hereditary Peers voted for me, and in that list I came second.

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[Lord Young of Cookham]

I remind my noble friend of the instructions on page 130 of the Companion. They state very clearly:

“On report no member may speak more than once”,


except in some very constrained circumstances. I think that my noble friend does not fit into one of those exclusions.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, prompted me to rise when I was not going to speak on this amendment. He quoted again the odds of becoming a Member of the House of Lords and said that the balance is tilted in favour of the hereditary Peers. Does he agree that once hereditary Peers are removed, the quickest and easiest way to get into this House is to become an MP? A third of the House are ex-MPs and that proportion will go up. Does he agree that that is an equally unjust way to fill the House of Lords, and that the right way is to hold elections?

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood]

My Lords, I suggest that a feature of this group of amendments—indeed, of all the others too with the single exception of Amendment 2A, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde—is the destruction of the Bill’s essential purpose: to abolish hereditary Peers for the future but keep our present invaluable 90, or 92. The original proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was at least consistent with the Bill in the sense that he was prepared, as he said, to accept the abolition of future elections provided that we introduce a statutory HOLAC but that is not true of the rest of these amendments.

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[Lord Grocott]

I do not see the direct relevance of that to what I am saying. I have expressed my views on the 17 and a half million people ad nauseam in this House; to be absolutely clear, I am very much on their side.

What has happened is not just an abuse of the House, a waste of its time and, to a degree, a waste of taxpayers’ money. To be personal about it, it is also a waste of precious Private Members’ time. We rarely get the opportunity to introduce a Private Members’ Bill. It is bad for the House to appear threatening to any future Member who wants to introduce a Private Members’ Bill.

We are closing the debate at 1.30 pm, when I will conclude. But this is a Bill that will not go away; I want to make that quite plain. They all know they are playing King Canute. This Bill will pass. I say that with absolute confidence, although I occasionally wonder whether it will be in my lifetime. The House needs to look very carefully at its procedures to ensure that the farce that we have endured today is not repeated. I hope that the Procedure Committee will see whether there are ways of dealing with this. Otherwise, the risk of further disrepute being brought on our House will only grow.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, once again mentioned my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and myself. I did put my name to a small number of amendments, but the noble Lord cannot accuse either my noble friend or me of filibustering by talking for far too long. We have talked very little, to make a short point. When the noble Lord accepted my amendment in Committee, I sat down immediately, as he will recall. I think he has forgotten one person who has prolonged the proceedings today, and that is the noble Lord, Lord Cormack.

[Lord Northbrook]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for all their contributions to the debate on my amendment. I feel that it will need a bit of fine-tuning before Third Reading to account for the fact that by-elections will die if and when the Burns report is enacted. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 7th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. I would like to add a few words in support of my noble friend Lord Trefgarne’s amendment. I believe the Government should grasp this nettle. I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, on this; to many others, this is not a minor matter. There was a solemn and binding commitment in 1999 that we entered into. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, that you cannot bind the next Government, but this was a hugely important matter for this House. We were requested by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, on honour, to vote in that election. When I have discussed this with people both within the House and outside it, I am quite surprised by the reactions. In this House I have been told, “It doesn’t really matter in politics; there is no such thing as binding honour”.

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Earl of Caithness]

May I just finish what I am saying, please? It is a very House of Commons attitude to keep on interrupting when someone is developing a theme.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[The Earl of Caithness]

It is perfectly true. This never used to happen; I have been here for a day or two.

Outside the House, people who think I am wrong in the position that I take on this Bill agree with me that there is a huge point of principle and I am absolutely justified in the position that I am taking. The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett—

[Lord Tyler]

I just want to correct the history that is being advanced this morning. The author of this provision, Lord Weatherill, referred to it as temporary. On 11 May 1999, the Lord Chancellor himself said, using strong words, that this would last only through the transitional House and that the transitional House would be brought to an end in the next Parliament. How does the noble Earl therefore justify his comments?

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[The Earl of Caithness]

Because the transitional House was not brought to an end—I am just coming to that point. The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, said that phase 2 will be the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Burns. That is quite an acceptable point of view, and I hope that the noble Lord will support my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me in our amendments to relate the Bill to the Burns report: that is one of our constructive amendments. Let me make my position clear: if Burns is agreed and implemented, I have no objection to by-elections stopping, because that fulfils the commitment of 1992.

[Lord Elton]

Does my noble friend agree that it is important to grasp the point, which has not already been made, that there is a difference between the two Houses? The House of Commons is transitory between elections; this House continues. We may be in a different Parliament, but it is the same House of Lords and an undertaking given in this House presumably continues.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Elton and totally agree with what he said.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I do not think we have covered ourselves in glory over the past 45 minutes. The Commons is not sitting today, so if there is any parliamentary coverage, it will presumably focus on us and this debate. I hope that one or two contributions do not receive a wider audience, because essentially what is happening now is a filibuster on a Bill which had overwhelming support at Second Reading. It is an identical Bill to one that I introduced in the previous Parliament which, likewise, had overwhelming support on Second Reading and was filibustered out of existence in Committee. The principal supporters—organisers, indeed—of this filibuster know that there is a small minority of people opposed to the Bill in this House. That is what the world outside, if it is interested, needs to know. The Bill is simply ending by-elections. I make no apology for repeating that in one of the most recent ones, there was an electorate of three but seven candidates. There is no by-election in the world as absurd as that and yet, amazingly, a number of speakers today want us to continue that system in perpetuity. Let us make no bones about that whatsoever.

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[Lord Grocott]

I cannot speak for my noble friend, who has spent so much of his life with the Liberal Democrats. I am not sure whether he was a recommendation of the Liberal Democrats or of the Labour Party, but in my case it was on the basis of 60 years’ membership of the Labour Party, of which I am very proud and for which I will continue to do the job here.

I must deal briefly with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, because it needs addressing, which is that somehow we must wait until the Burns report is implemented before we act. I make the very obvious point that the cardinal argument within the Burns report is that we must reduce the size of the House, and the mechanism for doing it would be two out, one in. Since our first debate in Committee, there have been two further by-elections for hereditary Peers. Those two hereditary Peers should have been replaced by one, according to the Burns report, but no, lo and behold, there are two more here. It is essential for anyone who is sincere about wanting to implement the Burns report that we get on and pass my Bill, because it would enable us to reduce the number of hereditary Peers, not precisely arithmetically but in line with the recommendation of the Burns report.

The only consequence of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, is not to enlighten anyone; it is simply to delay further progress on the Bill. The two principal—I will not call them culprits, because I am sure they are proud of it—Peers who have relentlessly tried to filibuster the Bill are the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. This time, 55 of the amendments are in their names. We had a similar debate to this before our previous Committee sitting, when there was a long debate on whether to put the Bill into Committee. We are doing that again now, and presumably we will do it again whenever it is next considered in Committee. It is clearly their objective to talk the Bill out.

I simply say this to the two of them: I know that the overwhelming majority of people in this House want the Bill to pass. The exchange of views up to now does not at all proportionately reflect the view in the House because—I am grateful to them for this—the numerous colleagues on all sides of the House who I know support the Bill have not wanted to contribute to the filibuster. A tiny minority is thwarting the clearly expressed view of these Benches, the Liberal Democrat Benches, a large number on the Conservative Benches and the Cross Benches and, in my judgment, a majority of hereditary Peers, any number of whom have come up to me to say that they wish that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, would desist from what they are doing.

They should know better. Between the two of them, they have had about 100 years’ membership of this House. I repeat that because I could barely believe it when I looked it up: 100 years between them. They ought to be getting the hang of the rules by now, one of which is surely that you know when it is time to call a halt. They should call a halt on this and allow the Bill to proceed, because the only effect of what they are doing at the moment is not to improve the Bill or to stop it—they know they cannot do that, they do not remotely have the numbers; every time we have had a vote on the Bill there has been a majority of about 100. They should desist. I fear we now have only two and a half hours, but we had three and a half hours when we began the discussion. I will gladly give way to the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, because every time he speaks he gives me greater confidence of my position.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I resent the fact that I have been classed as a filibusterer whose sole intention is to stop this Bill. If your Lordships add up the amount of time I have spoken for, it is comparatively little. I have put forward amendments to improve the Bill and to link it to the Burns report. We put forward amendments to widen the franchise for the by-elections, which the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has just said we did not want to do. We have tried to improve the Bill.

[Lord Grocott]

He has tried to improve the Bill, my Lords? All I can say is: it is the way he tells them. I hope the House will come to a conclusion on this now. If there is a Division I hope that all noble Lords who want progress will vote against it.

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[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I query the terms of the amendment. What is behind it? Every time we debate this piece of legislation, the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, appear, like woolly mammoths from the permafrost, with a series of amendments. As I understand this amendment, the noble Lord wants any excepted hereditary Peer to be younger than the average age of Members of the House of Lords. He will correct me if I have got that wrong.

The noble Lord set a fine example himself. As my noble friend Lord Grocott indicated, the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, has spent no fewer than 56 years as a Member in your Lordships’ House. As I understand it, he took his place in the House on his 21st birthday. I hope he does not think me rude if I say that, by the look of him, that was some time ago. It was, in fact, in June 1962 and he has been here ever since. In that year, as I am sure some of my noble friends well remember, the Beatles and the Rolling Stones cut their first records and Harold Macmillan was Prime Minister. In 1962, I was a humble lance-corporal in the Royal Engineers, yet at that time the noble Lord was studying the wine list in the Members’ Dining Room. He is thoroughly institutionalised.

Although the motives for the amendment are creditable, the Committee deserves a fuller explanation of the thinking behind it. After all, he set a fine example himself, being scarcely out of his teens. Indeed, following the untimely death of his father, had the rules of your Lordships’ House been different in 1962, he would have taken his seat even earlier; he had to wait until his 21st birthday to do so. We are due some clarification from him about the terms and the meaning of this amendment, otherwise—perish the thought—we might think that this is just yet another attempt to delay this piece of legislation.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I cannot speak for my noble friend Lord Trefgarne, but I say to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, that the reason for tabling this amendment is that we are concerned about the average age of the House, which has gone up. One great advantage of having hereditary Peers here is the youth that is involved. If the noble Lord looks at the average age of life Peer appointments, he will see that, of the last 15 appointed, one was in their 80s, two were in their 70s, with most in their 60s. This eventually will shove the average age of the House up. I see the purpose of the amendment as to try to keep a balance and to keep the average age of the House as low as practicably possible.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench is being provoked beyond endurance. We have just seen a most appalling waste of time. The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, moved his amendment, as he was entirely entitled to do, but he did not put in Tellers. There is no way of recording the enormous majority that displayed itself in the Not-Content Lobby. Had that vote come to a proper conclusion, I doubt whether he and his colleagues would have reached double figures. They certainly would not have got much beyond that. This is a disgraceful abuse of not just your Lordships’ House but the institution of Parliament. If my noble friend on the Front Bench is not provoked beyond endurance, I am.

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[Lord Northbrook]

As I understand it, she has lived in Worcestershire for quite a long time—so I would have to check the figures from the House of Lords Library on that.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I think the answer to my noble friend Lord Cormack is that the noble Countess is a Peer of Scotland.

[Lord Northbrook]

I will give a brief historical background to support my argument. The Act of Union between the UK and Ireland in 1800 provided that the Peers of Ireland should elect 28 of their number, to be called Irish representative Peers, to sit for life on the part of Ireland in the House of Lords of the new United Kingdom. The fourth article of this Act of Union provides that,

“such act as shall be passed in the parliament of Ireland previous to the union, ‘to regulate the mode by which the’”,

representative Peers should be chosen,

“shall be incorporated in the acts of the respective parliaments”,

by which it was to be rectified.

The Irish Parliament passed such an Act, laying down in great detail how the original representative Peers and their successors were to be chosen. It laid down that the Irish temporal Peers were to meet at a stated time and place to elect 28 of their number, and each of the temporal Lords so chosen,

“shall be entitled to sit in the House of Lords during his life”.

Clearly a similar role is set out for a Peer chosen to fill a vacancy. This procedure continued unchanged until almost 100 years ago, when the Irish Free State was established. Crucially, the legislation that created this abolished the offices of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland and the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, who was responsible under the Act of Union for carrying out important duties in connection with the election of Irish representative Peers.

In 1925, the UK Government were advised by their Attorney-General that this abolition demonstrated an intention to terminate the rights of Irish Peers to elect Irish representative Peers to fill vacancies as they arose. Expert legal opinion was obtained from two leading members of the UK Bar—namely, the future Lord Chancellor and the future Master of the Rolls—that the right of Irish Peers to elect representative Peers had survived and was unassailable. But the matter was not insisted on or carried through by the Irish Peers. Those already elected carried on serving for life, but no effort was made to replace those who died. While in 1925 the Attorney-General’s opinion could be justified for the south, it left Northern Ireland out in the cold.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

32: Clause 1, page 1, line 11, leave out “not to be filled by further exception” and insert “to be filled by the holding of a by-election, in which all members of the House of Lords are entitled to vote, with further provision to be made by Standing Orders”

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I was not going to move the amendment but I was provoked to do so by what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said earlier. I want to make the point that the noble Lord has spoken at length about the iniquities of the current by-election voting system. He said that we want to preserve it in perpetuity; in an earlier debate, I said that I do not want that. This is one example of our wanting to improve the by-election system by asking all Members of the House to vote when there is a by-election. In that way, I believe that the House will be more fully involved in by-elections.

It is worth noting that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, talked about the proportion of people voting in by-elections. In the last Conservative by-election, 91.5% of those eligible to vote, voted. Clearly, there is a lot of interest as to who should be a successor.

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[Lord Trefgarne]

It is not in my hands at my age, I am afraid.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the point has been made about daughters inheriting titles. I would be in total support of my noble friend Lord Trefgarne’s Bill. I would be very happy if eldest daughters were entitled to inherit. In fact, I supported the Bill at an earlier stage. It is that mischief that needs to be corrected, not the mischief that there are only males, except for one, on the waiting list to stand for a by-election.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said that if there were elections of the whole House only a small percentage of Peers would vote. If I remember rightly the figures that my noble friend Lord Trenchard gave earlier, I did a quick bit of maths and 50% of the House voted on the whole-House election. If that is considered to be a total waste of time because it is a small percentage, it is worth bearing in mind that the highest percentage of people who voted in the UK at a European parliamentary election is only 38%. Perhaps that is a very good reason why elections to that Parliament should be stopped. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but I will bring it back at a later stage.

Amendment 32 withdrawn.

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[Lord Grocott]

Perhaps I could clear this up with a couple of facts. On the question of the party strengths in the House of Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord True, need worry too much about a Conservative leader ensuring that their party strength in the House of Lords remains strong. By way of illustration, the Labour Party was elected with a huge majority of 157 in 1997, at which time there was a colossal majority of some 200 or 300 Conservative Peers in the House of Lords. Many of them—90% of them—went in the 1999 Act and we have only the cream left: the 10% who were elected, the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, among them. However, it was in 2006, nine years after the Labour Government were elected, that Labour became the biggest party, although obviously not the majority party. So the Tories were the biggest party for the first nine years of a Labour Government with a majority of 157 in the House of Commons. The noble Lord need not worry: the Tories are much better at making sure that they have friends in this House. Does he know how long it was after the 2010 election before normal service was resumed and the Tories were the biggest party again? It was just two years: by 2012 the Tories were the biggest party. So if the noble Lord, Lord True, is having sleepless nights about Tory leaders not appointing enough Tory Peers, I think that he can sleep well.

On the other crucial fact, with respect, talk about making a mountain out of a molehill over the disproportionate effect of my Bill on the future composition of parties in the House of Lords! I have been doing calculations on a sheet of paper while the noble Lord has been talking and just for the record, since the 1999 Act there have been, I make it, 34 hereditary Peer by-elections, roughly one third of the total. Of those, nine were Conservatives. So over a period of 19 years, although he used the phrase “striking heavily” about the effect on party representation in the House of Lords, the Conservative membership would be down nine if my Bill had been in operation. Just for the record, the Labour Party would have been down two, so the net benefit to the Labour Party in opposition over the Government would have been seven Peers over 19 years. Once again, I suggest to the noble Lord that he can sleep well still, even with that anxiety hanging over him about the future.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the reason for the figures that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, mentioned is that when the elections took place in 1999, it was by and large the younger and most active hereditaries who were elected. It is not surprising that the gathering-in rate of Conservative hereditary Peers has not been as great as it is about to become. We are all getting older and my noble friend Lord True has raised an important point.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said nothing about protecting the Cross Benches. He waxed lyrical about how a Conservative Prime Minister would be keen to protect these Benches but with the possible implementation of the Burns report ahead of us, we are talking about a size limit on the House along with the importance of keeping the Cross Benches. Perhaps he could tell us how the Cross Benches are going to keep their numbers up to those required.

[Lord Judge (CB)]

Before the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, answers that question, while I am not speaking on behalf of the Cross Benches—because nobody speaks on behalf of us—can the Cross-Benchers be left to look after themselves, please?

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Friday 23rd March 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
“Overview
This Act amends section 2 of the House of Lords Act 1999 to end the process of by-elections for hereditary peers, thereby making the House of Lords a wholly appointed Second Chamber.”

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 1 and in doing so I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and his praetorian guard for appointing four tellers for the Division. I and a number of my noble friends did not take part in that Division because we would have been very happy to see the amendment withdrawn and not to waste 10 minutes going through a Division Lobby.

Amendment 1, standing in my name, is what is termed an overview clause. It aims to spell out what the consequence of the Bill is. Before I come to the amendment, I want to say very briefly where I stand on the Bill because I have been referred to—I will not use the personal abuse that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, used, but I think it is right that I set out exactly where I stand. I believe in the principle. I am very glad to see the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, in his place. He said on this matter in this House on 30 March 1999,

“this Bill is about principle”.—[Official Report, 30/3/1999; col. 206.]


My opposition to the removal of the provision for the succession of hereditary Peers is also a matter of principle.

What was agreed in 1999 was that there would be hereditary Peers and successors pending further reform. I hope that we will get that reform through the Burns report. It is not the reform that I would like—I would prefer a smaller, elected House—but I will be very happy to support the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, when the Burns report is fully on its way to being implemented. I am also happy that the number of hereditary Peers should be reduced to the proportion that it is now, because as the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, rightly points out, if the House comes down to 600, the proportion of hereditary Peers goes up. If it goes up a few per cent, I would be very happy that the number of hereditary Peers comes down from 92 to 82 when the Burns report comes in, because that would bring us back to the status quo.

My opposition is not to what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is arguing for, but to the principle of doing it now, because it disconnects what we all agreed to in 1999, which was binding on our honour. The noble and learned Lord the former Lord Chancellor, who is here, was very firm and made it perfectly clear that, if we did not agree to the compromise that had been negotiated on Privy Council terms, the Government would renege and use the Parliament Act. He spelled it out very clearly, saying:

“I wish no one to be left in any doubt”.—[Official Report, 30/03/1999; col. 208.]

[Lord Grocott]

The noble Earl said he did not want to waste time and that is why he did not take part in the Division. May I help him by saying that I am happy to accept his amendment? It does not do anything, but it seems to me that it does not do any harm either, so in order that we can move on to the next group of amendments he can rest assured that I accept his amendment. Therefore, I suggest that he concludes his remarks.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, that comes as a wonderful surprise and I welcome what the noble Lord has said. There are further amendments that are also designed to improve the Bill, but I will reserve what I was going to say about the difficulties of an unelected House for a later stage. Meanwhile, I am very happy just to move my amendment.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Caithness is right to propose this amendment because it clarifies the intent and effect of the Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott—

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[The Earl of Erroll]

I am a hereditary Peer. It makes no difference, actually, because I am not about trying to preserve things. I know that I will not be thrown out. Lots of people seem to think that it is a bribe to us that we will not be thrown out. If the noble Lord reads it, Amendment 59 shows the intention of the Bill, which is very simple—to change this into an appointed House over the long term without having to go to a vote of both Houses of Parliament. The point about this Bill is that this is a backdoor way of ending up with an appointed House. It might as well declare that intention on the front of the Bill. I know that it is not about throwing us out.

The one thing that I would like to say to the noble Lord is that it is totally irrelevant whether I am hereditary or not, because I have no interest in this. It is for the future. The only interest that I have is for my grandchildren to be able to elect the people who pass legislation, and if you put this on the front of the Bill it is non-destructive but it points out the intention of the whole thing.

I shall raise a quick point of interest, and then I shall sit down. The hereditary principle, I am told, was originally invented to stop the King being able to pack this place with cronies. So you established the great families as de facto people in very powerful positions. That is why we have the Earl Marshall and people like that. That is how the hereditary principle started; whether it works is another matter, and I heartily like the fact that we have an independent Appointments Commission bringing people into this House that is not through the political system. That is what worries me, and it is the reason why we should have proper reform, with most of the House elected, before we go down this route—otherwise we are not going to do it.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I would also like to speak to Amendment 59, which is in my name and grouped with this, because what the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, has said is absolutely right, and it is an important point that we will come to.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the noble Earl declare an interest?

[The Earl of Caithness]

In deference to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, I am not giving way to him but I declare my interest as a hereditary Peer and declare my interest that I know why I am here. Some people in this House are, I guess, still wondering why they are here.

What the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, has said is absolutely right. I want to pick up three brief points on what has been said. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, talked about 15-minute speeches in Committee. I hope that he will pass the Standing Orders on to his noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith, who spoke for 40 minutes at 10 o’clock at night in moving an amendment, and various others who have prevaricated in that Bill.

I totally agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, on what she said on one Parliament not binding another, but actually, what her noble and learned friend Lord Irvine of Lairg proposed was personal on each of us who came to vote. It was not one Parliament binding another; it was for each of us who turned up to vote. Therefore, it is up to us to decide whether that is a principle that should be maintained, as I do, or that it is not a principle worth supporting anymore.

On the point about succession, I would be only too happy to support a Bill that gave the first child the right of succession to a hereditary peerage. That would be an extremely good move but, unfortunately, that is not the Bill that we are discussing. I have supported that before, and I would support it again.

[Lord True]

My Lords, perhaps I could briefly intervene and declare an interest as not being a hereditary Peer. I doubt that I would ever catch the eye of the selectors, even if there were such a provision.

The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, referred to the late Ivor Richard. Having been present at those times, I add my appreciation to the great service that Lord Richard did to his country, his party and this House. It was an honour to deal with him, albeit briefly. The misunderstanding in what the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, said was that the late noble Lord did not support an all-appointed House, which this Bill would produce. I heard many times in those days and since that Lord Richard supported the principle of a two-thirds elected House—believing that the public should be entitled to elect their politicians to both Chambers of this Parliament—and a one-third appointed House. That was his provision, and he was summarily dismissed in 1998 and further and different arrangements were made. My view on the future of this House, to follow on from the noble Earl who spoke, is rather akin to that of the late Lord Richard. I do not see in the longer term why the public should not elect the politicians to both Chambers of this House.

Apart from the point of honour, which is a personal point, and which, having been involved, I do hold, I accept that that will not count for other Peers, and I respect that and do not expect to bind them to that—but that is something that moves me in this respect, as well as my feeling that it is an objective fact and truth, however much we may protest otherwise, that the longer-term effect of this Bill would be to create an all-appointed House by stealth, bit by bit and stage by stage. That is the inevitable result of your Lordships agreeing to this legislation and, if it went down there, the other place agreeing to it.

I personally believe that such a proposition of the creation of an all-appointed Chamber permanently as part of our legislature in the 21st century should be brought before Parliament in a serious and major Bill by a Government in future. Yes, if the Labour Party or the Liberal Democrats or even our party succeeds in winning an election, and it is our view that we wish to present a Bill for the abolition of the hereditary peerage and creation of an all-appointed Chamber, that is the proper way in which to proceed in a democracy: to secure a mandate from the public before the election for such a great proposition, and to go forward. In my submission, we should not, in a hole-in-the-wall piece of legislation, move bit by bit towards that end. I detect a certain eagerness, exemplified on the Benches on my side, to push this Bill forward. It has not escaped my notice that some of the most eager are those who wish to create an all-appointed House in the longer term.

I have sympathy with those hereditary Peers who have spoken. I do not believe that we should start challenging the right by which one sits here. As has been said, that would be a difficult and uncomfortable place for some of us to go to. While we are all here, we are all equal. We are all Peers and should be allowed to be heard. I would not follow my noble friend Lord Hamilton entirely, but having sat through many hours on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, the minority sometimes feels it has to hear a lot from the majority. I do not particularly care for majorities ganging up on minorities. I support Amendment 59, and if it is pressed I will vote for it.

I will make some other brief points. As my noble friend Lord Caithness said, the argument about gender within the peerage is strong and valid, but that matter needs to be addressed by wider legislation on the peerage. If the noble Baroness wishes to attempt that, she can bring legislation forward.

So far as binding the Parliament’s successor is concerned, the original deal had two parts. The first was that, until the end of that Parliament, hereditary Peers who departed—the proper English word is died—would be replaced by ones on the list of those who had been put forward at the election. It was not conceived at the time that this arrangement would continue, but provision was made by Parliament for it to continue in successive Parliaments. That is the process we have now, which came into effect after the 2001 election. So provision was made specifically for this to last until such time as your Lordships’ House is finally reformed.

The noble Lord, Lord Steel, who is no longer in his place, referred to his Bill. A serious mistake was made in that Bill—which I did not support—requiring that a hereditary Peer who retires should be replaced. Under the original arrangements, when there was no retirement system, a hereditary Peer who took leave of absence would not be replaced. In the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, it was your Lordships, in your wisdom, who made the deliberate decision to extend to retired Peers the privilege of being replaced.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trefgarne]

I beg to move.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I shall speak to this group of amendments. I also resent the accusation that I have been using delaying tactics. After the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, intervened to accept my Amendment 1, I immediately sat down so that progress could be made.

The noble Lord has presented his arguments under two headings. The first is that he has this prejudice against hereditary Peers and their succession. This is part of Labour policy, I fully understand that, and I fear that there is also probably resentment at being out-argued by my noble friends Lord Cranborne and Lord Strathclyde in 1999. The Prime Minister at the time is not the first person to have been out-argued by a Cecil, and doubtless will not be the last. That is well known in history.

The second flank of the noble Lord’s argument is about the by-elections. He has made some very witty speeches and written witty articles on this subject. These amendments deal with the by-elections. I wish to address in particular Amendment 10 in this group. The noble Lord has pointed out, at Second Reading last year and before that, that some circumstances in which certain by-elections are conducted are not entirely compatible with modern thinking on how they should take place. He has a point. However, the point of these amendments is to retain the by-elections but give the noble Lord what he wants: namely, a change in how they are constituted.

[Lord Grocott]

The noble Earl really must acknowledge what he is doing. It is not a question of amending the by-elections; the clue is in the Title of the Bill, which includes the words, “Abolition of By-Elections”, so all the amendments in this group are clearly trying to reverse or block the fundamental purpose of the Bill. They are all about changing bits and pieces in the mechanism by which the by-elections take place. These by-elections are unimprovable, and the noble Earl ought to acknowledge that this whole group of amendments would wreck the Bill. I hope that he will draw his comments to a conclusion.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, if that is the noble Lord’s sole argument he should not have said what he did at Second Reading and he should not have used those arguments in his recent articles. He argued very firmly that the present basis of election was unfair in some aspects and rather stupid in others. We are seeking to correct that. If the noble Lord is going to absolutely set his mind against that, he should not have said what he did at Second Reading or written what he did; that is the equivalent of claptrap, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the fundamental point.

I support my argument with a few quotes from when this issue was debated in another place. I refer particularly to the comments of the then Sir Patrick Cormack, now my noble friend Lord Cormack, who said:

“I believe without equivocation … that the House of Lords will be better for the 92”.


I understand that he has changed his mind but I think he ought to explain that to the House.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I did that as the party’s Front-Bench constitutional affairs spokesman in another place, welcoming what was happening at that time. As has been made very plain by the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition in this House, no Parliament can bind its successor. We are now almost 20 years on. I would therefore ask my noble friend to reflect on what he has said.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I have reflected and I have stated exactly what I did. My noble friend also went on to say that we should,

“recognise that the interim House, as it is called by some, which will assemble next week, could exist for some considerable time”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/11/99; cols. 1200-01.]

So my noble friend knew exactly what the situation was, and what he said was repeated by John MacGregor, now the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I think I am right in saying that the noble Earl is the 20th Earl of Caithness and his title goes back many centuries. Instead of speaking here, would it not be better if he went back up to Caithness, got down on his knees and thanked the Lord that he lives in the United Kingdom and not in France, where they had a rather more ruthless way of getting rid of their aristocracy?

[The Earl of Caithness]

Well, some survived that too and doubtless some of us will survive this onslaught against us. My noble friend Lord Deben, the then Mr Gummer, also said what a good thing it was to have some hereditaries here because:

“A society is better run when, even if it is not entirely rational, power is spread a bit, with the opportunity for different people to make different comments about different things.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/11/99; col. 1173.]


All I am asking is that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, consider that we amend the way by-elections take place at the moment to make them for the whole House rather than just individual parties, and that we revisit this when, as I said earlier, there is greater implementation of the report of the noble Lord, Lord Burns.

[Lord Trefgarne]

In this short intervention I support the proposition to which I referred earlier that the by-elections should be conducted on an all-House basis.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

10: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
“(2) In section 2, after subsection (4) insert—“(4A) Standing Orders must provide that any vacancy must be open to any hereditary peer, and that the method used for the by-election to fill that vacancy, including the electors eligible to vote, must not be based on any party political affiliation.””

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I would like to move Amendment 10, and I am emboldened to do so by what my noble friend Lord Shinkwin just said. It is worth reminding the House that at the moment, there are 214 ex-politicians in this House. Add to that—

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I remember distinctly, because it was only 20 minutes or so ago, that when we began discussing this group, the lead amendment of which is Amendment 6, the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, devoted most of his speech to Amendment 10, which is in this group. He has been in this House for 40 years or something of that nature, though not as long as the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, so he knows we have dealt with this group of amendments. Of course he may want to speak to his point at a later stage of the consideration of the Bill, but he has already addressed the specific point of this amendment within the group that we have now disposed of. I respectfully suggest to him that we should move on to the next group, which begins with Amendment 11.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I do not think the noble Lord is right. Although the amendments are grouped for the convenience of the House, you can still speak to an amendment individually whether or not it has been in a group. I am speaking to Amendment 10. I just wanted to add a few words because I wish to test the opinion of the House on this, as I think it is important. There are at the moment 214 ex-politicians in this House, added to which there are another 101 ex-councillors, and I have excluded councillors who became politicians in later life. That is about 40% of the House. If one removes the hereditaries, the balance of the House shifts yet further. It is for that reason that I think we ought to have an electoral system that is different from the one that we have at the moment, and I beg to move.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 8th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I regret the introduction of the Bill, but not as much as I regret the fact that we have not had a further Bill, after the 1999 Bill, to reform this House. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and I are on the same sheet of paper when we think what the future of the House should be. We hope that something will happen fairly soon, and it will considerably improve the House.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords—

[The Earl of Caithness]

No, I listened to the noble Lord for 12 minutes and I only have five.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, intervened on the Farriers (Registration) Bill on 26 April this year, and your Lordships can find what he said in cols. 1392-93. That was a Bill that I had taken forward, and he was basically asking whether I would afford the same courtesy to this Bill of his, which was due to come forward, as the House was affording to mine by not putting down an amendment. As a result of that intervention I got a number of emails from people asking: “Is this really how the House of Lords works? Is it, ‘You scratch my back and I’ll scratch your back and we’ll get the legislation through’?”. My response was very firm in saying, “No, that is not the way I operate”, and I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, that I will be putting down amendments.

I commend the noble Lord for his consistency in bringing forward this Bill and I hope he will commend me too for my consistency, along with that of my noble friend Lord Trefgarne. Whether it be the Steel Bill, the Hayman Bill or the Grocott Bill, we have been utterly consistent in our opposition to this particular proposal. The reason is that the agreement back in 1999 was hugely important. It resulted in a compromise that many people did not like but, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, the then Lord Chancellor—whom I am delighted to see in his place again today—said, compromises are not necessarily totally acceptable but they are the practical way forward.

The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, said in his speech that the agreement was binding for all time. That is absolute rubbish; that was not the compromise at all. The compromise was that it was binding in honour for those who voted for it until such time as there was further reform. I believe that the longer the by-elections take place, the more impetus there will be for a major reform of this House. It might take longer than 20 or even 25 years, but if the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, succeeds, we will turn ourselves into a totally appointed Chamber, very keen to defend that position. I think that that is quite wrong for the British constitution in this day and age.

The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, whom I also call a friend, said that it was principle. I say to her that it was not; it was a commitment binding in honour, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine, said so twice in two separate paragraphs. That is the reason for my objection to the Bill and I will continue, as I have done in the past, to oppose it.