Scotch whisky: US tariffs

Douglas Ross Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2020 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Douglas Ross)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Buck.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) on securing this important debate. I also thank him for his unstinting commitment to the Scotch whisky industry, as a constituency MP and in his roles in the Scotland Office as a Minister and, latterly, Secretary of State for Scotland. This industry, which means so much to everyone who has contributed to the debate, could have had no greater champion in Whitehall and Westminster than my right hon. Friend during his time in office.

I am delighted to respond to the debate on behalf of the Scotland Office. The issue clearly covers several different Departments, such as the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—with an interest in the GREAT campaign, which I will come on to—and the Department for International Trade. The Minister of State, Department for International Trade, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns), was keen to be present to respond to this debate but had other commitments, given the “Global Britain” debate in the main Chamber. I have spoken a lot with him over the past few weeks, and the Scotch Whisky Association met the Secretary of State for International Trade about this issue earlier in the week.

As well as being the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, I am the Member of Parliament with more Scotch whisky distilleries in my constituency than anyone else. The great, iconic Moray and Speyside industry benefits the whole of Scotland and the United Kingdom. Unlike my right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, however, I do not go to sleep memorising figures, but I will reiterate some of his.

Global exports reached £4.7 billion in 2018, so we can all recognise what a successful and important industry Scotch whisky production is for Scotland and the whole of the United Kingdom. Growing markets stretch from South America to the far east, and Scotch whisky is a key British product recognised for its quality. It is a global success story, our biggest export, our most cherished product and our national drink. Whisky is part of what makes Scotland.

For all the continued success, this is a time of considerable anxiety for the industry, as we have heard today and in the months since the tariffs were applied. The US makes up a significant share of the market—more than £1 billion by value in 2018, of which some 33% was single malt Scotch whisky—so it is particularly disappointing that Scotch whisky has been targeted in this dispute, alongside other important sectors. The trade war is over an industry and area unconnected with the other affected sectors. The other affected industries in Scotland include cashmere. My right hon. Friend mentioned the efforts of my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont), who raised this issue at business questions last week and has been doing work in his local community. UK biscuits are also affected by the 25% tariff, a large proportion of which is Scottish shortbread. Moray is home to Walkers Shortbread, as it is to Johnstons cashmere woollen mills.

I have been fully aware of the problems faced not just by the Scottish whisky industry but by many others since the tariffs were applied at the end of last year. I do not underestimate the effects that those tariffs have, and will continue to have, on the industry, particularly, as others have said, on small and medium-sized businesses. Those include some craft distilleries, which have done so well to break into the market in recent years. I am determined not to allow the tariffs to threaten the jobs, communities and businesses across Scotland that rely on the whisky industry. The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) made the point that many of us are fortunate to have distilleries in our constituencies—some more than others—but that the industry affects all our constituencies in Scotland and many more across the whole of the United Kingdom, because of the supply chain.

The UK Government are clear that the tariffs are not in the interests of the UK, the EU or US. We are working hard to support a negotiated settlement. Departments are working together. When the Secretary of State took office, one of his first jobs was to write to the US ambassador on this topic. I will say more about DEFRA and the Department for International Trade a little later. The issue has been raised at the highest level in the UK and the US Administrations. The President and the Prime Minister have discussed the issue on a number of occasions; many hon. Members have reiterated the Prime Minister’s comments about dealing with the tariffs. I want to continue to do everything I can to facilitate a conclusion. I am confident that the strong relationship between the Scotch whisky industry and the United States will continue to prosper, as it has done for many years.

The hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) was quite right to mention the work of the Scotch Whisky Association alongside the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States. At the reception I hosted at Dover House on Tuesday, there was a strong message: two industries on each side of the Atlantic are working together with a common aim. They have been to the US, Brussels and London on visits. It was a powerful message to show those two organisations working hand in hand. It was said that a light could not be put between the two of them on this issue, and they make a compelling case.

I want to pick up on a few points made by hon. Members. The hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill) made a strong, passionate speech. I am delighted that visits to Moray are ingrained in his memory; his story of his visit to Grant’s was important to set the historical context of the debate. As well as mentioning the importance of the Scotch whisky industry to the whole of the United Kingdom, the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) came up with a new parliamentary term: his “hon. non-Friends.” I hope we can agree on many things and be friendly in our discussions about this issue.

I commend the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) for her maiden Westminster Hall speech; it was excellent. I like to claim—correctly—that I have the most Scotch whisky distilleries of any constituency in Scotland, with four. She is a long way behind me, but having the spiritual home of Scotch whisky is a claim I am not able to make. She made that point very well. Her work with Diageo before coming to this place is extremely useful to this debate. I am sure she will continue to contribute with that same passion and expertise.

The hon. Member for Glenrothes was right about the industry’s fear that the tariffs could not only increase on single malt Scotch whisky but go on to blended Scotch whisky. We are acutely aware of that and are doing everything possible to ensure that the Scotch Whisky Association’s message on that is heard loud and clear. My hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) made a strong pitch for the distilleries in his area, as he always does. He has made commendable efforts—as have others—to promote Scotch whisky since he came to this place in 2017.

As a Government, we are particularly disappointed that the US has chosen to use the WTO compliance panel report released just before Christmas as a basis potentially to increase tariffs. Our view is that the panel has made a number of errors in its assessment of UK and EU compliance, and an appeal has been lodged on that basis. We are clear in all our engagement that tariffs do not benefit any parties, and that the best outcome is through negotiation of specific issues within the Airbus-Boeing dispute. We continue to raise those at the highest levels in the US Administration. It is very helpful that the Scotch Whisky Association is making its case so strongly and is working with industry partners in the US to demonstrate that the tariffs are counterproductive on both sides of the Atlantic.

We recognise the vital generation of jobs that the Scotch whisky industry provides: some 42,000 jobs across both Scotland and the United Kingdom. They are often located in more rural areas of Scotland, enabling those places to thrive through direct employment in distilleries and through ancillary industries such as packaging and haulage, and the wider attraction of tourism right across Scotland. Understandably, tourism has not come up a lot in the debate, but distillery visitor centres have a great impact on local economies. A report last year showed the huge impact that those visitor centres make in communities that host distilleries. That should not be underestimated.

I am aware that Scotch whisky industry representatives have proposed a range of measures to address the potential impact of the tariffs. It is important to note that any such action would have to be within the WTO legal framework. I will continue to work with colleagues across Government to consider all the options.

I see that the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) is typing away; we are all very busy. She might want to type in the Scottish Conservatives’ and the Conservative manifesto for the recent general election. She asked me if I considered reforming the taxation system for Scotch whisky. Not only have I considered it, but the Prime Minister has considered it and it was in our 2019 general election manifesto. I know that not only because the Prime Minister announced it, but he did so at the Roseisle distillery in Moray on one of the first days of the general election campaign, in early December.

I say nothing about the hon. Lady missing a key point in the Scottish Conservatives’ manifesto—I cannot honestly tell her that I remember every detail of the SNP manifesto—but it was the No. 1 key ask by the Scotch Whisky Association of all political parties. I hope I can reassure her that in November, the Prime Minister came up to Scotland to make that commitment. The Chancellor will work with his Treasury colleagues to ensure that the commitment to review alcohol duty more broadly will be taken forward. There will be further announcements about the review in due course.

As my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine rightly mentioned, for the past two years, duty on Scotch whisky has been frozen, largely down to the efforts of Scottish Conservative MPs in dialogue with Treasury colleagues, ensuring that our iconic Scotch whisky industry did not suffer any increase in duty, along with other spirits in the same two Budgets.

The hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) mentioned geographical indications; because Scotch whisky is a vital sector of the UK economy, we have supported and will continue to support it in a variety of ways—in particular the designation as a geographical indication, which affords protection against fraud and any undermining of its renowned quality standards. As part of the withdrawal agreement, the UK committed to protecting all EU GIs unless and until a subsequent agreement superseding it entered into force. That includes third-country GIs recognised in the EU following direct application to the EU. That will help to ensure a smooth transition to the future relationship with the EU. Existing UK GIs, which include Scotch whisky, will continue to be protected in the EU along with other fine Scottish products, such as Scottish farmed salmon and Scotch beef.

I mentioned that this debate over Scotch whisky includes DEFRA. The Government have played their part in promoting our whisky worldwide. The Food is GREAT campaign led by DEFRA, in partnership with the Department for International Trade and VisitBritain, is part of the UK Government’s GREAT Britain campaign. The Food is GREAT campaign aims to demonstrate the quality, craft, heritage and innovation of key UK food and drink products to consumers, trade and media worldwide, to help build demand for UK food and drink exports. This is Scotland’s No. 1 industry for international exports, so it is vital that the UK Government use their extensive international reach to support the sector’s export growth.

I am delighted to say that demand for Scotch whisky is growing around the world. Between 2017 and 2018, demand increased by 10% in Singapore, by 18.5% in Mexico and by 34% in India. Those are just some of the countries in which we have seen significant increases in recent years, and I am sure we all welcome that. We will work closely with the industry across the UK to refresh the UK food and drink international action plan, looking well into this decade and beyond at opportunities to continue to expand our markets and further increase our export ambitions as we negotiate a series of free trade agreements in the years ahead, as several Members mentioned.

The UK and the US are strong partners and allies, and the US-UK economic relationship is crucial. That is acknowledged by the US Administration. Indeed, we have already ensured trade continuity in the whisky industry by signing the agreement on distilled spirits and spirit drinks with the US. Among other things, that protects Scotch whisky’s status in the United States as only

“products of Scotland, produced in compliance with applicable…laws and regulations”.

Both countries are committed to mutually beneficial economic arrangements that benefit UK consumers and companies. In pursuing a future trade agreement with the US, there is the opportunity to deepen that relationship and set a global benchmark for how two leading, open and mature economies trade with each other.

We shall also, of course, negotiate an ambitious free trade agreement with the EU and work with global partners to transition existing EU FTAs and other sectoral agreements to ensure that the Scotch whisky industry continues to benefit from such arrangements.

It is clear from the debate that there are many great opportunities for growth for the Scotch whisky industry. The message coming through to us is that the spirits sector—as we heard, this is not just about Scotch whisky; gin and other spirits are booming—and the Scotch whisky industry in particular stand ready to take those opportunities. I am very grateful for that, and I have no doubt that the Scotch whisky industry will continue to flourish both at home and across the globe, but we need to do our part as well. There is no doubt that the tariffs that have been applied are already having a severe effect. If they continue, their projected effects are stark; it has been said that they may cost up to £100 million a year.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale did an outstanding job of presenting the case on behalf of the Scotch Whisky Association and the industry. Perhaps the most telling figure he used, notwithstanding that the debate may finish slightly early, was that during a 90-minute debate, 5,400 bottles of Scotch malt whisky will leave the UK to go to the US. Each and every one of them will be subject to a 25% tariff, which the producer has to pay to the US Treasury. That is what happens in just 90 minutes, which shows the cumulative impact that the industry has faced in the 90 days or so that have elapsed since the tariffs were applied.

The Government are determined to do everything we can to support the industry. I believe our efforts have been aided not only by the strong message put forward by my right hon. Friend, but by the generally consensual nature of the contributions by Members of all parties. We must continue to highlight this issue and work on both sides of the Atlantic to remove these tariffs, so that not only Scotch whisky but other products, such as cashmere and shortbread, can continue to be iconic, sector-leading Scottish brands that are sold around the world, rather than being punished for being exported to the United States. We must nurture and continue to work with those markets, which have so many benefits, and I want to see Scottish products continue to lead the way. If we can remove these tariffs, we will be able to do that.

On that note, I thank you, Ms Buck, for your chairmanship of the debate, and I thank my right hon. Friend for securing it.

Claim of Right for Scotland

Douglas Ross Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Douglas Ross)]

It is always a pleasure to debate issues of importance to Scotland, and it is a huge privilege for me to do so from the Dispatch Box. While I acknowledge the efforts of the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) to secure the debate, the claim of right for Scotland did not come up much during the recent general election campaign that I fought in Moray. It was not the first issue out of people’s lips when they were seeking to elect their representatives to this place. They did not say that they wanted to have a debate on constitutional matters led yet again by the SNP.

[David Linden]

Will the Minister give way?

[Douglas Ross]

I will allow the hon. Gentleman to intervene in a moment.

When I spoke to people in Moray on doorsteps, in hustings and at street stalls during the election campaign, they were interested in the fact that the Scottish economy is growing slower than the UK economy. They were interested in the fact that Scotland’s national health service has been underfunded and understaffed by the SNP Scottish Government—a Government who increased spending in the NHS in Scotland by 13.1% between 2012-13 and 2017-18, compared with increased spending of 17% in England by the UK Conservative Government. That shows the difference being made in Scotland when the SNP does not prioritise services that local people rely on. [Interruption.] The SNP has been clear just recently about how Parliament should respect all Members. Indeed, one of its MSPs said over the weekend that heckling and shouting was a form of discrimination. I hope that those on the SNP Benches consider those words when trying to shout down a Minister who is trying to respond to the debate.

[John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way during his excellent response. I wonder whether he is aware of a quite shocking tweet over the weekend from Paul Wheelhouse, the SNP Scottish Government Minister, in response to my tweet about a Burns supper, in which he questioned my Scottishness because I do not share his nationalist agenda. Does the Minister agree that that type of bullying and intimidation, which we see all too often from SNP Members, is not acceptable in this society? Does he also agree that it is perfectly possible to be a proud Scot and also a very proud Brit?

[Douglas Ross]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. I have to say that SNP Members’ mask is slipping at the moment. They do not like it when their comments and tweets are thrown back at them, but it was rather disgraceful, discourteous and, I believe, unbefitting a Scottish Government SNP Minister to tweet that a Scottish MP—someone who is as proud a Scot and as proud a Brit as I am—is any less Scottish because he does not support their plans for separation and the SNP’s plans for independence.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Douglas Ross]

I will give way to the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) because he tried to come in first.

[David Linden]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, and he knows that he and I get on fairly well. I want to come back not on the back-fighting between the SNP and the Conservatives, but on his point about the claim of right for Scotland, which he said was not contentious during the course of the election in Moray, where of course his vote fell quite significantly. On the claim of right, he was not one of the Members in this House who opposed it—in fact, if I recall correctly, and I took part in the debate that night, no Member opposed that—so if it was not a contentious issue then, why is it a contentious issue for the Minister tonight?

[Douglas Ross]

I think if the hon. Gentleman reads the Official Report of this debate he will see that I did not say it was not contentious; I said it was not the pertinent issue. [Interruption.] Perhaps it was across Scotland, but certainly in Moray it was not the top issue that people were campaigning on and urging their politicians to raise if they were elected to this place. I think it is only right that we look at the key issues that people were discussing at the general election, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman would agree that, even in his own seat in Glasgow, the claim of right was not the issue that people were queueing up to discuss.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Douglas Ross]

I will give way to the hon. Lady who secured the debate.

[Patricia Gibson]

May I just say to the Minister that, if Scotland’s right to choose is not something that people were exercised about when he was out campaigning, why were all the Tory party leaflets in Scotland about “Vote Tory to stop #indyref2”? May I also ask him this? He has spent a lot of time tonight—for reasons I am not quite clear about, because the debate is on the claim of right for Scotland—talking about devolved issues. May I say to the three Scottish Members of the Tory party that if they wanted to discuss devolved issues, perhaps they should have stayed in the Scottish Parliament?

[Douglas Ross]

I am sorry that the hon. Lady thinks that healthcare in Scotland is not important enough for her and I am sorry that she thinks that the education system in Scotland is not important enough for her. However, we are elected as representatives of our constituencies, and Scotland is blessed to have two Governments, so when one Government are failing and letting it down, I think it is incumbent on all politicians to raise issues that affect our constituents day in, day out.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Douglas Ross]

I give way to the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone), who has been trying to get in.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I think I am right in saying that I am the only Member of this place today whose name is actually on the claim of right. That is something I am very proud of indeed. The claim of right to which I put my name was about the Scots having control over their own destiny and over their own services, as it were. Surely, therefore, the standard of service delivery we see is what the Scottish Government will be judged against. Right now, we see—we all know: all of us and all of those in the Scottish National party know—that on the health front the Scottish Government are failing, and we know that on transport they are failing. [Hon. Members: “No!”] Oh, yes we do, and on that the Scottish Government will be judged. If indyref2 ever comes to it, they will be judged accordingly, and I say to the Scottish National party, “Be careful what you wish for.”

[Douglas Ross]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. It has been quite telling, sitting on the Government Front Bench, to look at the face of the leader of the Scottish National party Members, who has been very considered in his reactions during this debate compared with some of the reactions of other SNP Members. Something that the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) is very accustomed to saying in this place is that the people of Scotland are watching. I think if people back in Scotland are watching tonight, they are seeing an SNP parliamentary group who are obsessed with the constitution and simply want to speak about separation, but do not want to discuss the relevant issues for constituencies across Scotland.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Douglas Ross]

I have given way—[Interruption.] I am sorry that SNP Members continue to shout me down. I listened to the speech from the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran with, I believe, consideration, and I have taken on board a number of her points. If I may, I will come on to the points made by the hon. Lady. [Interruption.] She is shouting across, “What about the leaflets?” That is one of the things I want to pick up on. Independence and separation never featured on an SNP leaflet; they did not want to tell people that the election was about that. Interestingly, a number of SNP MPs who were returned here—and I am looking particularly at the hon. Member for Angus (Dave Doogan), because his letter was put out in the public domain—were writing to Labour supporters to say, “Vote for me this time; you may be a traditional Labour supporter and a strong Unionist, but vote for me on this occasion not to support separation and independence, but just to stop the Tories getting in.”

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Douglas Ross]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman who wrote that letter to Labour supporters.

[Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)]

I thank the Minister for giving way, particularly as he brings me into this debate. Yes indeed, we did write to non-SNP supporting members of the Angus electorate, and I am sure we did that elsewhere in Scotland. It was to invite them, notwithstanding their views on the constitution, to take a view on a more progressive way forward for the country of Scotland, and that is exactly the view that they took and I am pleased that we did that.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), who secured the debate, said very clearly in her excellent speech that not everybody in Scotland is persuaded of the case for independence, and there is not a single SNP MP on these Benches who is not on that page. However, we will not be swayed from our priority to ensure that the case for independence is aired as clearly and manifestly as possible. My hon. Friend made the case that devolution is not an event, it is a process. What will the Minister and his Government do when they run out of concessions to make—because it will be independence?

[Douglas Ross]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman confirming in the House of Commons, so that it will be on the official record, that the SNP garnered votes at this most recent election on the pretence that it was nothing about independence—it was not supporting independence—but less than a month later we are here discussing constitutional issues, because it is all the SNP can bring forward.

I want to pick up on a number of points that the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran made during her speech. She spoke about the absent Secretary of State for Scotland; I am just scanning around and I cannot see the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland anywhere in the Chamber either. The hon. Lady said that the people of Scotland have made their choice, and I agree; as the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber said at Prime Minister’s questions last week, the people of Scotland said no—the people of Scotland said no in 2014.

The hon. Lady said that that 2014 referendum on independence was won on the back of lies and mistruths. I wonder whether the lies and mistruths she is speaking about were in the White Paper that the SNP put forward—the White Paper that promised us oil at $100 a barrel and said that oil was going to pay for absolutely everything in Scotland. [Interruption.] Well, we are really getting animated now, but I will just try to finish my remarks—[Interruption.] We were told that the Scottish economy would be based on oil at $100 a barrel, and we were told that the referendum was a once-in-a-generation event. That is not rhetorical flourish, as some in the SNP would now like to say; that is written in black and white in the White Paper they put forward for independence. That was their model for separation and therefore—

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

On what page?

[Douglas Ross]

The hon. Gentleman is shouting from a sedentary position to ask what page that was on, but I can do better than that; it was in the sixth paragraph of their document to take Scotland out of the United Kingdom. They said very clearly it was a once-in-a-generation event.

The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran also said that successive election results have proved that the SNP has support across the country, and she reeled off a number of elections in which the SNP has been successful. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) says, “Every single one,” but not in recent council by-elections. The final council by-election of the decade in Scotland was in my Moray seat, and I am delighted that the Keith and Cullen ward returned a Conservative councillor. Indeed, only last week, in the first council by-election of the decade, a Scottish Conservative was elected, and do you know what the percentage of the vote was for the Scottish Conservatives in that by-election, Mr Speaker? That Scottish Conservative councillor was elected with 62% of the vote, so it is no surprise at all that the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran refused even to comment on those successes of the Scottish Conservative party. [Interruption.] I think that winning 62% of the vote is the big picture.

As I said at the beginning of my speech, there are many things that we should be focusing on in this Parliament, and indeed at Holyrood, that the public in all our constituencies can relate to and be assured that their politicians are dealing with. We should be focusing on issues such as the fact that the Royal Hospital for Children and Young People remains unopened by the SNP, because it has failed in its hospital building. Nor should we be dismissing concerns about the state of our Scottish police stations, which have been shown to be flooding, with water coming through the roofs. These are the issues that the people of Scotland expect our politicians to be dealing with, not constitutional wrangling, which we always get from the SNP. I think SNP Members should focus on that.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Douglas Ross Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2019 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

The first thing, as I have outlined in virtually every answer today, is to get the political debate in Scotland off the constitution and on to the issues that really matter to ordinary families. The idea of bringing forward a new independence referendum Bill in the Scottish Parliament, which would take up time when the Scottish Parliament could focus on issues such as this, is the problem right now.

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

13. What assessment he has made of the findings of the Scotch Whisky Association’s “Scotch Whisky Economic Impact Report 2018”, published on 30 April 2019.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

I am very pleased to see how this important sector is thriving. The UK Government are supporting the Scotch whisky success story by freezing duty on spirits again this year. That demonstrates clearly how the UK Government are taking the right decisions on taxes and delivering for the businesses and people of Scotland.

[Douglas Ross]

The report highlighted that the Scotch whisky industry’s contribution to the UK economy has increased by 10% to £5.5 billion. Due to the UK Government’s welcome announcements, the industry has reinvested £500 million over the past five years in production, distribution and tourism. Does the Secretary of State agree, however, that we can do more to ensure a fairer taxation system for the Scotch whisky industry?

[David Mundell]

My hon. Friend represents the constituency with the most distilleries in the United Kingdom and is a very powerful advocate for the industry. We consider it to be of very great importance, and we will look at any proposals it cares to bring forward in that regard.

Claim of Right for Scotland

Douglas Ross Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)]

I beg to move,

That this House endorses the principles of the Claim of Right for Scotland, agreed by the Scottish Constitutional Convention in 1989 and by the Scottish Parliament in 2012, and therefore acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs.

Before I begin, I am sure the whole House will join me in congratulating the former Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire and former Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament, George Reid, who is celebrating his golden wedding anniversary today with his wife, Daphne.

“The principle of unlimited sovereignty of parliament is a distinctly English principle and has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional law”—

those words are not mine. They are the words of the Lord President of the Court of Session in 1953 during the case of MacCormick v. Lord Advocate. This Parliament, I accept, has a great deal of power, and rightly all of us who are democrats should respect the will of the people, but if we are to accept and respect that will in this place, why not in Scotland?

Why do the Tory Government think they can do whatever they want to Scotland and get away with it? Many people in Scotland are outraged that the Conservative Government have argued that times are not normal and that that allows them to change the devolution settlement in the teeth of the opposition of the Scottish Parliament. Put simply, the Conservatives have no mandate for their power grab on the Scottish Parliament. The case is this: in Scotland, it is the Scottish people who are sovereign.

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. He has spoken about a power grab. If there is a power grab, why did his leader in Scotland, the First Minister, have to increase her Cabinet from 16 to 26 because of all the extra powers coming to Holyrood, according to Nicola Sturgeon?

[Ian Blackford]

My goodness. We are talking about the sovereignty of the Scottish people and that is what we get. I am not even going to dignify that with a—[Interruption.] It is early in the debate. People will be watching, and it might be an idea—

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Blackford]

I really, really hope that people in Scotland are watching this. A Conservative Member from south of the border who failed to be elected in Scotland says, “All heart.” This has nothing to do with heart—this is about the rights of the people of Scotland who voted for devolution and are finding that the UK Parliament is taking away their rights in the teeth of opposition from the Scottish Parliament and every single party there, with the exception of the Scottish Tories.

When will the Scottish Tories begin to listen to the people of Scotland? This is not about the SNP. This is about the Scottish Parliament. This is about the people of Scotland. Let us not forget that the Conservatives have lost every single election in Scotland since 1955. They have been defeated—[Interruption.] Yes, you can see—look at the 13 who have been elected. There are 35 of us here from the Scottish National party, which won the election for Scotland. That is the reality. The Conservatives are in a minority Administration in Parliament. They would love to have the majority of MPs that we have from Scotland, but it is not likely to happen.

We have defended the sentiment time and again, and we are here to do so again. “Why today?” some in the Chamber might ask. Well, the fact of the matter is that, over the past few weeks, we have seen the biggest power grab by this Government since devolution.

[Douglas Ross]

rose—

[Ian Blackford]

Sit down. We have seen the Tory Government disrespect the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish Government and the Scottish people. The interests and the democratic choices of the people of Scotland have been shoved aside by the UK Government. Devolution has been downgraded and the authority of our Parliament has been diminished. While the Tory Government in London seek to destroy our constitutional settlement and undermine the sovereignty of the Scottish people, we in the SNP will not let the Scottish people be ignored.

--- Later in debate ---

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. If I can use the word “you”, I will say that it is great to see you in the Chair for this important debate about Scotland.

I have to say that I love this place; I love the Chamber—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) says that I love the Nou Camp. Yes, I do. It was a great honour and privilege for me, as someone from Moray who started on football pitches at Forres Academy, to reach the Nou Camp.

[David Linden]

rose—

[Douglas Ross]

I will come to the hon. Gentleman in a minute.

I was very grateful for the support that I received in Moray from people who were not impressed by the antics of the SNP, which forced me to give up a lifetime ambition. That has happened, and I accept it—I am delighted to be here tonight to speak—but to make such petty remarks is really following in the footsteps of the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford), and I hope that, as I give way to the hon. Gentleman, he will consider his tone in this debate.

[David Linden]

The point is that on the night when the hon. Gentleman was at the Nou Camp, he was not here scrutinising the Government on universal credit.

[Douglas Ross]

That debate on universal credit was one in which I was never intending to speak, and that night’s vote was very interesting, because no one voted against the motion on universal credit. The debate was called for by SNP Members, and they then manufactured a vote. We will all be looking very closely at manufactured votes if there is consensus in the Chamber tonight on what we are debating.

I agreed wholeheartedly with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr). I started off by saying that I love this place. I love this Chamber and I love these Benches, but tonight, for the first time, I have not enjoyed it. I like the cut and thrust of debate as much as anyone else, but I do not agree with the personal attacks on the Secretary of State for Scotland that we saw from the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber. Hon. Members can disagree with the office and with what the Secretary of State is doing, but to get so personal—to play the man rather than the ball—does not serve the right hon. Gentleman well and does not serve his party well. When I tried to intervene on the right hon. Gentleman, he was throwing his arm at me disrespectfully and he had to be called out by Mr Speaker for his actions. I hope that after this Opposition day debate he will reflect on the way in which he performs in this Chamber, because Scotland is watching and Scotland wants to see its politicians in both Parliaments working together where they can, and constructively disagreeing when that has to happen, but not doing so in such a personal way. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman’s current silence means that he is reflecting on what he said and, more importantly, how he said it.

[Ian Blackford]

I want to reiterate that my opposition to the Conservatives and the Secretary of State is entirely political; I have said nothing personal. I ask the hon. Gentleman to reflect on this: it is a matter of record that two weeks ago, I was asked to commit suicide by a Conservative Member of Parliament. I will also say to the hon. Gentleman something that I have not yet raised in this House. Last night, while sitting on these Benches—this was witnessed by other people—I was told what to do in very explicit terms involving a four-letter word beginning with F that has previously been used by the Foreign Secretary, so I am not going to take any lectures from Government Members about how to behave. I am the one who is being abused by the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues by being told to commit suicide and being told to “F off”, so I am not going to take any lectures from him. [Applause.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Let me just make it clear: no clapping; just shouts of “Hear, hear.” It is fine to support, but no clapping.

[Douglas Ross]

The point that I was trying to get at is that the mask is slipping with the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber and the SNP. He mentions actions that took place last night. I hope that his own Members reflect on what an hon. Lady—she is not here, so I will not name her—did at the conclusion of last night’s debate with her actions towards my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling. I know that that will have been noted by SNP Members, and that behaviour also cannot be allowed to continue in this House.

Twenty-four hours is a long time in politics. Yesterday, a debate about the economy of Scotland—about the amount of money that Scotland gets from Westminster to spend in the devolved Administration—could only attract two SNP MPs. Yet a debate about the constitution and the SNP’s obsession with independence can attract far more. However, I was really surprised that only 16 SNP Members were present at the start of the speech by the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber tonight. Half the parliamentary party could not even be bothered to be here for the start of the SNP’s Opposition day debate. I wonder whether that is because, like many of us, they disagree with the subject that is being taken forward tonight.

[Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Douglas Ross]

I will give way in a moment.

I wonder whether many of the SNP Members wish that we were discussing other things. Today of all days, when the UK Government have launched their White Paper on fisheries, we could have been discussing fisheries. This would have been a great opportunity for the SNP to talk about fisheries, because the subject is very topical today. But SNP Members did not want to do that because of their policy on fisheries. The SNP lost Moray and 20 other seats around Scotland because of its policy on fisheries, which says, “We don’t want these powers going to Westminster. We want to give them straight back to Europe.”

We could have been speaking about education, because SNP Members quite often say in this place, “This is what we will do in Scotland, so UK Government Ministers should replicate it in the UK.” [Interruption.] I am happy to give way to any of the ladies who are trying to have a conversation at the moment, but otherwise I will continue my speech.

I mention education particularly because SNP spokespeople and Back Benchers quite often stand up in the Chamber to ask the Government to do exactly what is being done in Scotland. Well, I hope that they never do that again with education, because in Scotland the SNP has had to withdraw its flagship Bill on education—its No. 1 priority, about which the First Minister and leader of the SNP said, “This will get all our attention.” That is how big a priority education is for the SNP. What about higher education? The First Minister of Scotland nominated someone who had deplorable views on transgender people, on black people and on Jews. That is also why SNP Members cannot discuss education in their Opposition day debate.

[Patricia Gibson]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It appears that the gentleman who is speaking is not paying any attention to the motion before the House. Could I have your guidance on whether his rambling remarks are actually in order?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I understand the point that the hon. Lady is making; several of her colleagues have been gesticulating to similar effect. I have been paying careful attention to what the hon. Gentleman is saying, and I have every confidence that having introduced various other topics about which this debate is not, he is now going to come to the motion before us and the substance of the debate, which is the claim of right.

[Douglas Ross]

I am very grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am coming to that, but it is important that the Secretary of State for Scotland and the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland discussed the key issues that we should be debating today.

Before I move on, I will refer to a comment made by the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber. He said that Conservative Members should be praising the NHS. Well, I would have liked to have a debate about the NHS today, because I am quite happy to praise—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) expresses great displeasure about that, but can she understand my anger today as the Member of Parliament for Moray who got a phone call from NHS Grampian to be told that for the next 12 to 18 months, because of the way that the SNP has overseen the NHS in Scotland, pregnant women will have to travel to Aberdeen or Inverness to give birth? [Interruption.] That is an important issue, and whether we are in this place or in Holyrood, we should not try to talk—[Interruption.] The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) should not try to talk me down, for I am standing up for pregnant women who are faced with these concerns.

[Joanna Cherry]

The hon. Gentleman has just been busy telling us how much he loves this place, but if he wants to debate the state of the Scottish NHS, he should be in the Scottish Parliament. Does he not understand the difference between reserved and devolved powers?

[Douglas Ross]

Again, this is the reaction we get from the SNP. If we disagree with SNP Members or say something they do not like, we are told that we do not understand things—so I am too thick to understand what is reserved and what is devolved. What I do understand is that I am a representative of my constituency, and when my constituents come to me raising these concerns, I should be able to shout—and loudly shout—about them in this Chamber, as colleagues could in Holyrood.

I will come to what we are debating: the claim of right—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber took 55 minutes to make his speech on this matter and I have eight minutes to make mine. It is important that we consider the motion. The claim of right is very clear and we all support it. It says that the Scottish people are sovereign and can choose the Parliament that best suits their needs. We gave them that opportunity in 2014, when the right hon. Gentleman, the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West and all the other SNP Members campaigned and voted for Scotland to be separated from the rest of the United Kingdom, and I, other Conservative Members, and people across Scotland and the UK, campaigned and voted for Scotland to remain an integral part of the United Kingdom. That decision has been taken. I went into the polling station in Moray and went to the count, knowing, I thought, that it was a once-in-a-generation event, because that was what we were promised by the former leader of the SNP and by its current leader.

But that is not good enough for SNP Members, because they are obsessed by independence. They will only speak about independence. They will not speak about healthcare, about education—about important issues for my Moray constituents and for Scotland. They are talking Scotland down by obsessing about independence rather than standing up for their constituents.

--- Later in debate ---

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

Earlier in this debate, I intervened on the Secretary of State for Scotland to ask him whether he supported the principle of self-determination in article 1 of the charter of the United Nations, and I was very pleased that he said that he did. For those who need reminding, this is what article 1 says:

“All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”

We have this motion today because of what has occurred since the people of Scotland last voted in relation to their self-determination, which was in 2014, because the implications of Brexit for Scotland’s economic, social and cultural development are enormous. That is why we wish to reassert today the right of the Scottish people to self-determination.

It has been very pleasing that there have been a number of significant concessions from other parties during this debate. The hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) said that he accepts the sovereignty of the Scottish people. I am sure that that may come as a surprise to some of his colleagues from English constituencies who are not here this evening and who so often tell us that it is this Parliament and this Parliament alone that is sovereign, but he has made that concession so that is one concession from the Government Benches.

[Douglas Ross]

Will the hon. and learned Lady give way?

[Joanna Cherry]

I will take an intervention in a moment.

The hon. Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) has said that he will vote for this motion tonight. I was delighted to hear that and I very much hope that all his colleagues will go through the Lobby to vote for the motion. The support for this principle will become very important when the First Minister of Scotland once again approaches the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom looking for a section 30 order.

The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Lesley Laird), who speaks for the official Opposition, also made an important concession, if I heard her correctly. I think that she said that if there was a mandate for another independence referendum in Scotland, she would support it. Well, that is very good. In fact, it is music to my ears because there is already a mandate for another independence referendum in Scotland. It comes from the democratically elected Scottish Parliament in which, in the light of the Brexit vote, the SNP and the Greens together voted to give the First Minister of Scotland a mandate—[Interruption.] Let me finish my point. The SNP and the Greens voted to give the First Minister of Scotland a mandate to request from this Government a section 30 order to hold another independence referendum. If Government Members and Labour Members have not twigged already, let me spell it out for them: that is what this motion is about tonight. It is about protecting the right of the Scottish people to take necessary steps to protect themselves from the consequences of Brexit because, unlike the people’s vote, the vote for a second independence referendum in Scotland already has a mandate. That is a distinction that the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) and the Lib Dems, who are no longer in their place, do not seem to understand.

Before I go any further, I want to take this opportunity to defend our group leader, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford). There has been a concerted attempt by Conservative Members this evening to assassinate his character by putting into Hansard allegations about him that cannot be upheld. Madam Deputy Speaker, I note that neither you, nor anyone else in the Chair this evening, has ruled his conduct disorderly. In speaking up passionately for the viewpoint of the Scottish National party, he is simply exercising his mandate and doing his job. In so doing, he has our support, the support of his constituents and the support of the Scottish National party.

[Douglas Ross]

The hon. and learned Lady mentioned what Conservative Members had said and put into Hansard. Will she accept that what I said about the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber was that he made it all far too personal—that he was playing the man, rather than the ball—and that if SNP Members really want to have a constitutional debate in which they engage people from all sides, they have to stop these petty attacks on individuals?

[Joanna Cherry]

Yes, I did hear the hon. Gentleman say that, but I do not accept that he was right. I suggest that he gets a mirror and looks in it more often, because it is he and his colleagues from Scotland who have been playing the man, not the ball.

This debate—as well as the debate around Brexit and Scottish independence—is really about what it means to be an independent nation in the modern world. People often ask why the Scottish National party wants to leave the United Kingdom but stay in the European Union. The answer is very simple. We do not have to look very far to see an example of what it is to be a partner in the European Union, as opposed to what it is to be a member nation in the UK. Just look across the Irish sea to Ireland, and see the treatment that the Republic of Ireland has received from the European Union. Ireland’s economic and social considerations are put at the heart of the negotiations by the EU27. Contrast that with the economic and social concerns of Scotland and, indeed, Northern Ireland, which both voted to remain but whose concerns are utterly sidelined. In Scotland’s case, we were given a total of 19 minutes to debate amendments to the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, accompanied by much sneering and condescension from the Government Benches when SNP MPs dared to protest. I would say to Conservative Members that their sneering and condescension is not a good look.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stuart Andrew]

No, the right hon. Gentleman spoke for far too long at the beginning of the debate. In fact, I will come on to a point he made right at the very beginning of his speech. He let the cat out of the bag in the very first few sentences of his contribution when he almost lost his temper. It was clear that this is all about pushing for another Scottish independence referendum. He said that there was a majority for independence in the Scottish Parliament, but the point is that there was a majority of the people of Scotland who voted no in the independence referendum.

The right hon. Gentleman said that we ripped up the Sewel convention. I really do not understand how he can say that. It does seem that the Scottish Government and some right hon. and hon. Members, when taking part in this debate, appear to have read “not normally”, which is written in the convention, to mean not at all, never, in no circumstances whatsoever. Some Members may wish to change the terms of the convention, but this is the convention that we have.

The right hon. Gentleman talked about this Government wanting to attack the poor. I find that a really quite disgraceful comment. We have done an enormous amount to turn the economy around. [Interruption.] He can continue to heckle, but I will come on to his behaviour in this debate in a moment. We have record employment. We have lowered taxes. We have taken the poorest out of tax altogether, and our national living wage has given the poorest people in this country the biggest increase in their wage for a long time.

The right hon. Gentleman said that we were all about a power grab and that the Secretary of State could not name a single power that would be going to the Scottish Parliament. I really do not understand that. In a previous debate, my hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Paul Masterton) spent about half his speech listing all the powers that will be going to Holyrood. In fact, due to the time limit on his speech, he did not have time to list them all.

[Douglas Ross]

Does the Minister also accept that, in a debate last week, not a single SNP MP could tell us any powers the Scottish Parliament was losing? Today, every time I tried to intervene on the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) about the power grab, he would not accept it because he knows Scotland is getting a huge number of powers from this Westminster Government as a result of Brexit.

[Stuart Andrew]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is part of the process the SNP is trying to use. It is trying to create an image that the Government are trying to take powers away from Scotland when the fact is that, when those powers come from Brussels, when we leave the EU, we will transfer those powers to the Scottish Parliament. That is why Nicola Sturgeon herself has had to increase the size of her Cabinet: because it has more responsibility. Those are not my words, but her words in answer to why we were increasing—

Glasgow School of Art

Douglas Ross Excerpts

Tuesday 19th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman’s last point: press speculation on the cause of the fire is very unhelpful. We need to let those people who are carrying out the professional investigation get on with it. I also agree that it is important that all levels of government—the city council, the Scottish Government and the UK Government—work together, and whatever our other differences, I absolutely commit to do that. The issue of sprinklers has been debated extensively in the House in recent times. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that a sprinkler system was in the process of being installed in the building, but sadly that process had not been completed.

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

Glasgow School of Art has a base in Moray; I spoke to people at the Altyre campus this morning, and they asked me to express their sympathies and thoughts for everyone involved in Glasgow. What can our constituents throughout Scotland do to support the efforts to restore Glasgow School of Art?

[David Mundell]

When I visited the School of Art on 1 June, I met some of my hon. Friend’s constituents from Moray who had raised very considerable sums of money for the first restoration. Although those fundraisers will be as devastated as the rest of us, I am sure that, given the vigour and passion that I witnessed, they will stand ready in Moray and throughout Scotland to start the process again.

Sewel Convention

Douglas Ross Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Ian Blackford]

If I may, I would like to make some progress. I will allow interventions again later.

If the UK Government have a free hand to bend the rules, and to state when a situation is normal and when it is not, in order to undermine the Sewel convention, we can never, ever protect the powers of our Parliament. Westminster can do as it pleases, and we have to take it. Our Parliament in Scotland, which is supposed to be permanent, can see its powers being changed on a whim by Westminster, which defines these times as not normal. Can the Secretary of State for Scotland not see what is wrong with that? He is here to defend Scotland’s interests, yet he is able to put his hands up and state that the times are not normal, at which point powers over fishing, agriculture, the environment and many other areas defined in the Scotland Act 1998 as being devolved are taken back by Westminster.

The UK Government have got this wrong. Last week, Scotland recognised that a power grab was taking place against our Parliament, at a time when Scottish Members of the UK Parliament were not even allowed to debate the matter here. The devolution settlement was being ripped up with no debate. Where is the democracy in Scotland’s Parliament having its powers stripped and Scotland’s MPs not being given the chance to speak?

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman says that Conservative Members opposed devolution in 1997, but will he take this opportunity to confirm that his own party also opposed it at the time, because its only aim was the separation of Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom? Also, he speaks about a power grab, but can he tell me how many powers the Scottish Parliament currently has, and how many it will have after this Government have enacted the legislation? He knows that it will be considerably more—[Interruption.]

[Hon. Members]

No answer!

--- Later in debate ---

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

“All this crowd are interested in doing is performing stunts and disrupting Parliament.”

Those are not my words, but the words of the SNP’s Deputy First Minister in Scotland, John Swinney, when an Opposition party in Holyrood performed the same theatrics that we saw from SNP Members last week. Their own Deputy First Minister thinks that they should be in Parliament standing up for their constituents and listening to the debate, rather than walking out. I agree with John Swinney, and I hope, in the cold light of day, that SNP Members will reflect on what they did last week and also agree with their Deputy First Minister.

I want to move on to the points I put to the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford). In my intervention, I made two specific points, neither of which were answered. I asked, first, how many powers the Scottish Parliament currently has and how many it will have after the implementation of the legislation in this Parliament, because if it is a power grab, there must be fewer powers afterwards. I am giving an open invitation to all SNP MPs in the Chamber to stand up and intervene on me to tell me how many powers the Scottish Parliament currently has and how many it will have after the legislation has gone through the Westminster Parliament. How many fewer powers will there be? Come on! Nobody? Nobody, because they cannot answer. They cannot defend their claim of a power grab because it does not exist. Their leader could not answer the question in my intervention, and now the entire parliamentary party cannot intervene to tell me the answer, because it is not happening and will not happen. They are not losing any powers; they are gaining powers as a result of this Government.

The second question I put to the right hon. Gentleman was: what was his party’s position in the 1997 general election? He stood up and said that the Conservatives opposed devolution in 1997, but the SNP opposed devolution in the 1997 general election. I have read its manifesto for the 1997 election, because the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) was so perplexed at my point, and it said:

“The SNP are proposing a fully-costed manifesto for an independent Scotland”.

Devolution was never mentioned: in those 37 pages, it was never once mentioned. Why? Because it is all about separation for the SNP. Every year, every month, every day, every hour—it is about separation for the SNP. It opposed devolution in the 1997 general election, and they are working against it now because it is not in the interests of separation.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Several of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues have referred to the deal struck by the Government of my country with the UK Government. However, during a session of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee of the National Assembly, Professor Tim Lang was asked what he thought the consequences would be for Welsh agricultural interests, and he said that Welsh interests would now be “steamrollable” following the Welsh Government’s capitulation. Is that what the hon. Gentleman wants for Scotland?

[Douglas Ross]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention because I am about to speak about Wales and about other people.

The right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber said that the people of Scotland are watching. They are watching, but does the SNP know what they are saying? They can see the grievance politics of the SNP. They will come to their own conclusions about why the SNP Scottish Government have ignored the Scottish Parliament’s Presiding Officer, who has said that its continuity Bill was outwith the remit of the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish public will have to wonder why the SNP does not accept the concessions from the UK Government that have met with the approval of the Welsh Assembly and of Welsh Labour. The SNP told us that it was hand in glove with the Welsh Government in these negotiations, but all of a sudden, with concessions from the UK Government, we have agreement in unionist Wales, but not in separatist Scotland.

The people of Scotland have to ask why Labour and Liberal Democrat peers are wrong when they say that the devolution settlement will be respected. Many of those peers are the architects of devolution itself, yet they can agree with what the UK Government are putting forward. The public in Scotland will also have to ask why the SNP thinks that Lord Sewel is wrong. The man who gave his name to the convention we are discussing today says that he backs the UK Government position. Lord Sewel has said today that he backs what the UK Government are doing, which is respecting the devolution settlement of our country.

Yes, the people of Scotland are watching, and they see the SNP working in the nationalist interest rather than in the national interest. I want more for Scotland: I want Scotland to get more powers from this UK Government, and that is what is happening. People will have to ask: why does the SNP not want these powers, and why does it want to give these powers straight back to Europe? As my hon. Friend the Member for Angus (Kirstene Hair) said, it wants to do so for fishing. That is hugely important in my constituency of Moray, yet the SNP does not want fisheries powers to come from Westminster to Holyrood; it wants them to go back to Europe.

My final message to SNP Members today is: if they do not want these powers, Scottish Conservatives do, and after the next election in Scotland, Ruth Davidson will use these powers as First Minister of Scotland. The public can see that those who do not want and cannot use these powers need to be replaced, and the Scottish Conservatives are ready to do so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Douglas Ross Excerpts

Wednesday 24th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

I understood that they had been made available to MSPs. If that is not the case, I will ensure that it is.

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

This week, Moray Council discussed the projects that will be included in the ambitious Moray growth deal. The Secretary of State knows of my strong support for the bid, so will he join me in Moray to meet the people involved in the Moray growth deal bid, to show the UK Government’s commitment to take these from proposals to projects delivered?

[David Mundell]

These growth deals and city deals across Scotland are very important to the economy as we prepare to leave the EU. I am excited by the proposals that have been brought forward by stakeholders in Moray and I would be delighted to visit with my hon. Friend.

Referendum on Scottish Independence

Douglas Ross Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Martyn Day]

I agree with my hon. Friend and I could not make that point better myself. We had universal suffrage for the first time in this country in 1928, but we did not stop the ball at the 1929 election; we continued to have democratic elections on a regular basis.

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

Were Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon wrong to say that the referendum was a once in a generation event—a once in a lifetime event? The posters for the yes campaign said, “One opportunity”. Were they wrong to do that?

[Martyn Day]

I cannot give an opinion on someone else’s personal opinion.

[Douglas Ross]

It is your party’s opinion!

--- Later in debate ---

[Martyn Day]

There is clearly an attempt to rewrite history: the word “democratic” has been erased and replaced with “divisive”. It was democratic and it was empowering. That is the message that we have to take forward, and that is what any future referendum has to be as well.

I have no doubt that that was achieved as a result of the consensus that stemmed from the Edinburgh agreement and the securing of the section 30 order: a democratic and consensual approach to politics between Scotland’s two Governments. In that, a clear route map has been established for how a referendum can be best carried out in future.

The reasons for independence are important. Much of what I have spoken about has been on process, but I hope that, as the debate continues with other speakers, we will get on to “why?” Let me give my own tuppence-worth. It will be no surprise to people that I often wear a “yes” badge—I am proud about my involvement in that—but the reasons are more important than just about being in or out of Europe, although that is important at the moment. I hope that Scotland can become a fairer and more equal society. That requires us to have the full levers of power to make Scotland a more successful country. Now, 70% of tax and 85% of welfare powers remain in the control of Westminster; the Scottish Parliament has no say over immigration, and it is powerless to prevent the Trident weapons of mass destruction sitting a few miles from our largest city. We need an alternative to the economics of austerity, where our Scottish Government are not restricted to merely mitigating some of the worst aspects of Westminster.

Independence—this is worth saying again from a democratic point of view and as a lifelong SNP member—is about more than the SNP. Scotland now has a multiplicity of pro-independence groups, with a broad home-rule movement pushing the case for independence. No amount of huffing or puffing in Westminster will decide whether Scotland is to become independent or not. Indeed, it will not even be decided by who shouts the loudest back in Scotland. It will be decided by the Scottish people, and at a time of their choosing.

[Douglas Ross]

On a point of order, Mr Bailey. I ask you to reflect on the earlier point of order, along with parliamentary authorities and indeed the Petitions Committee—

[Mr Adrian Bailey (in the Chair)]

Order. If the hon. Gentleman remembers, I said that that was not a point of order. He cannot make a point of order about something that was not a point of order.

[Douglas Ross]

We are now looking at the entire 26-minute speech by the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day). I wonder—

[Mr Adrian Bailey (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is making a point of debate.

Before I call the next speaker, may I first say how good it is to see such an enormous level of interest here, as reflected in the attendance on a Monday afternoon? This presents some difficulties in management, because effectively we have only two hours of general debate. I need to caution Members that they will have roughly five minutes each. If Members go on after five minutes, I might start to get very agitated and indeed see fit to impose a time limit. I ask all Members to respect the right of others to make their contributions in the debate and confine their remarks to five minutes. I call Douglas Ross.

[Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con)]

Thank you very much, Mr Bailey. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I say not as a point of order but perhaps to put it on the record that I am extremely disappointed that in 26 minutes the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day), speaking on behalf of the Petitions Committee and looking at two petitions, spent most of that time on the petition for a second independence referendum, which was supported by 38,000 people, and almost ignored the 221,000 people who supported the petition against a second independence referendum. I hope that after the debate the Petitions Committee will reflect on who it nominates to speak in such debates to ensure that petitions discussed together get equal merit.

In Moray in 2014, as in many parts of Scotland, people were engaged and encouraged to get involved in the independence referendum, but they did so in the clear knowledge that it was a once-in-a-generation event—a once-in-a-lifetime event. Indeed, as I said in my intervention, both the current leader and previous leader of the Scottish National party said there would be one opportunity—one opportunity for people to say whether they supported independence or opposed the separation plans of the SNP. In Moray, there was a 58% vote saying “No, thanks” to independence. I was proud to be part of the campaign, but I was immediately disappointed by the SNP’s continued campaigning, and its continuing with the separation narrative despite the conclusive result of the 2014 referendum.

Because of that, the party that apparently governed Scotland was so obsessed with separation and independence that it took its eye off the ball in doing the day job. The SNP has had a continued central belt bias in the Scottish Parliament, moving towards centralising a number of issues. For example, Police Scotland is currently without a chief constable. The Scottish Police Authority has been without a chairman since June, and now they want to integrate the British Transport Police into Police Scotland. Already the organisation of Police Scotland is under significant strain, yet the SNP wants to centralise further.

[Brendan O'Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)]

Could the hon. Gentleman expand on the idea of central belt bias? Argyll and Bute takes in everything from Campbeltown to Tiree, and we have an SNP MP, and an SNP MSP. If there is such central belt bias, why does rural Scotland vote SNP in the west?

[Douglas Ross]

It certainly does not vote SNP in the north-east, where I overturned an SNP majority of more than 9,000 to gain a Scottish Conservative majority of 4,000.

[Jamie Stone]

The hon. Gentleman will agree with me that it is no surprise that, for that matter, electors do not vote SNP in one of the remotest and largest constituencies in rural Scotland—my own.

[Douglas Ross]

Absolutely—the hon. Gentleman makes a point that I hope to expand for the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara). Policing is an example of centralisation, and so are the health services. The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) and all other non-SNP politicians are campaigning against the centralisation of health services in their remote part of Scotland. The point that I am trying to put across is that the SNP Government are obsessed with separation at the expense of the local issues that we need to focus on and concentrate on. [Interruption.]

[Mr Adrian Bailey (in the Chair)]

Order. I am trying to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to speak. If I feel that anyone is making unofficial contributions from the Back Benches while another Member is speaking, I may change my mind and decide that they have already had their five minutes.

[Douglas Ross]

Thank you, Mr Bailey. I could go on to mention the failures of the SNP Government over the common agricultural policy, and rural communities that have been let down because the SNP takes its eye off the ball and focuses on independence and separation rather than the issues it should deal with.

We must also consider why such a large number of petition signatories have continued to tell the SNP Government that they do not want a second independence referendum: they know the benefits of our Union. In that Union we trade four times as much with the rest of the United Kingdom as with the rest of the European Union. The Union also delivers with respect to the Defence estate, in constituencies such as mine. There are two major military bases in Moray—the Kinloss Army barracks and the RAF base at Lossiemouth. [Interruption.] I am sorry, but I will not listen to ridiculous comments. The RAF base has had record investment by the UK Government, and it will be one of the main bases for fast jets anywhere in the United Kingdom. That is possible only because Scotland voted in 2014 to remain in the UK, rather than separating from it.

Many hon. Members will contribute to the debate, and will want to say why our constituents voted no in 2014 and remain no-voting constituencies in 2017 and beyond. The SNP may say that it has a majority of seats, but at the most recent general election, SNP Members lost 21 colleagues. I hope that they will reflect—and surely they will—on going from 56 seats to 35. [Interruption.] We certainly did not lose 21 seats. The SNP must listen, instead of lecturing. I hope that it accepts that we said no in 2014 and we meant it.

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[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

It will come as no surprise to the hon. Members gathered here today that I have no intention of supporting the notion of a second independence referendum for Scotland. I want to share an experience I had during the referendum period. It will be no surprise to the SNP Members here that I was involved in the Better Together campaign. I was at the top of a ladder, up a lamp-post in the town of Alness in Easter Ross, putting up a “No, thank you” poster. Around me there gathered a crowd of people who were not of my persuasion. I was called a traitor and told, “Get off that ladder and go back,” and all the rest of it. At that precise moment, while I was at the top of the ladder, my mobile rang. It was my wife. That was the point when Scotland’s future hung by a thread, and my wife said, “Darling, will you be sure to remember the milk and the cat food?” That brought me back to reality.

I want to talk about what other hon. Members have already referred to: the divisions. More than anything now, we have to put everything else behind us and heal those divisions. As other hon. Members have said, it got very, very bad indeed. I do not want ever to see that again in Scotland, because it did not reflect on us as a country in any good way whatsoever.

[Douglas Ross]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that, while the petition against a second independence referendum speaks in its preamble only of Scotland’s suffering because of the SNP leader’s obsession with independence, the petition in favour of a second independence referendum mentions that those who support one are “not bigoted” and “not racist”, thereby implying that those who do not potentially are bigots and racists?

[Jamie Stone]

We have to move away from that language. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s sentiments, and I also thank him for his comments about the problems we have experienced with the health service in my constituency. It is not for today, but there is a problem in that the SNP, or any governing party of whatever colour, must be seen to serve the outlying different areas of Scotland in ways that do not disadvantage them.

That is for another day. Let us think about the positive things around which I think all of us across this Chamber today can unite. Scotland, for many hundreds of years, has been an outward-looking nation. Why do we have these words in our Scottish dialect? Why do we talk about a hashet for the plate on which we carve a gigot of lamb? Why do we talk about a swarree? That is the French influence. Why do we have Dutch tiles in Fife? Why did Wick, in my constituency, export enormous amounts of herring to the Baltic? It was because Scotland was traditionally outward-looking and dealt with nations right across the world. That is something we should be proud of, and that is what we should concentrate on in the future. Whatever side we were on in Brexit, Scotland has a role in the world, and it is a positive one.

We can unite on that, but to do so we must put the divisions behind us. I am repeating myself, but they were bad, ugly, and they brought friend against friend and brother against brother. That is unfortunate, and I think we could agree on that. In closing, I must say well done to the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) for taking so many interventions in such a cordial and well-mannered way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

Sir Roger, you had the misfortune not to witness, although you will have heard about it, the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) complain at the start of our debate that the mover of the debate from the Petitions Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day), was subject to bias and seemed to favour one of the petitions over the other. Since then, two and a half hours have elapsed and, by my count, we have had two speeches in favour of one of the petitions, assuming we put the mover of the debate in that camp, and 15 in favour of the other. It is good to see such a balanced debate.

[Douglas Ross]

On a point of order, Sir Roger, could you clarify whether you have been unable to call a number of Scottish National party Members who hoped to contribute? Or is it the fact that we had only those two speeches because only two SNP Members put in to speak?

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Due to the self-denying ordinance of all hon. Members, all those who indicated that they wished to speak, on both sides of the House, have been called.