Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (Second sitting)

Deirdre Costigan Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 11th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Ms Billington]

Q By how much?

Barnaby Lenon: I cannot answer that. We do not know, but I am quite confident that plenty of parents will have found it too difficult.

Simon Nathan: If you look at the number of pupils in independent schools over the last 10 years according to Department for Education data, on the face of it you could say, “Well, there’s 12,000 more,” but that is during a period when the overall school population went up by 800,000. The proportion of pupils educated in independent schools went down from 7% to 6.5%. There has been a proportionate decrease.

[Deirdre Costigan (Ealing Southall) (Lab)]

Q Thank you very much for your evidence. I am a former chair of the governing body of a state school, so this is a really interesting conversation. Mr Woodgate, you mentioned that private schools might need to look at redundancies to absorb the impact of the measure. I understand that the student-teacher ratio in private schools is double that in state schools. It is something like 8.5:1 versus 18:1 in state schools, so there are significantly more teaching staff in private schools. If there were to be redundancies, have you made any assessment of whether the impact would be similar to the impact on state schools?

David Woodgate: Pupil-teacher ratios are increasing anyway. Many schools are much beyond that. That is not a typical pupil-teacher ratio in one of our schools. Many are going up towards 20—the same kind of number that you are talking about in the state sector. Inevitably, if there are redundancies, there will be fewer teachers to go around and they will be teaching more pupils.

[Deirdre Costigan]

Q I was specifically asking for a comparison with the state sector. Do you think that redundancies will have a similar impact, a worse impact, or less of an impact in the private sector than in the state sector?

David Woodgate: Inevitably, if pupil-teacher numbers change, that will have a negative impact.

[Mr Sewards]

Q I understand that the Minister wanted to move on from this, but on your comments about aspirational parents, the simple fact is that all state school parents are aspirational, and in many cases they will never be in a financial position to send their kids to private school. I wanted to give you an opportunity to clarify that. Secondly, given that over 1,000 private schools closed between 2010 and 2024 without much media attention, how many private schools do you estimate will close as a result of the Bill?

David Woodgate: On your second point, we estimate that somewhere between 200 and 250 of our 1,300 schools are vulnerable to closure. They may look at mergers or other options—some might academise, for instance—but that is the kind of figure that we are looking at. I take your point about aspirational parents. We have to ensure that this does not impact on the bursary funding that is available for people from more disadvantaged backgrounds to get a place at one of our schools if they wish to go there. We have to ensure that, as far as possible, given these threats to our income, the funds available for bursaries are maintained.

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[Patrick Spencer (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

Q The premise of this policy change, as I understand it, is to rebalance fairness back towards local, community-based properties and businesses, which I am in favour of. But can you speak to the impact that the Bill will have on your institutional investors that invest in large warehouse space? What is the importance of that for the UK economy, in terms of supporting our distribution networks and the many businesses that provide goods to our doorstep? What impact will the change of policy have on those businesses?

Rachel Kelly: Our whole economy is interconnected. Those large logistics and distribution warehouses that you talk about will be servicing parts of our retail sector as well. I am sure there will be loads of impacts of this measure that are impossible to predict at this point, but ultimately, increasing the tax rate further makes investment in property harder, and it will make the occupation of property more expensive. Other than that, it is good that the whole economy is shouldering the burden of the higher tax rate, and we would not want that to be intensified further so that individual sectors are solely bearing that burden; I do not think that would be right or sustainable. Ultimately, the higher tax rate will make the tax system less competitive and the occupation of property more expensive.

[Deirdre Costigan]

Q You said at the outset, Rachel, that you wanted the tax system to be more responsive. Would you not agree that rebalancing the tax system in this way is being responsive to those empty shops on the high street, and to the feeling among small businesses and hospitality that it is the online distributors that are not playing on a level playing field and are getting away with being able to undercut them because the tax system currently does not work? The legislation will give us the responsiveness we need to level that up.

Rachel Kelly: Yes and no. Ultimately, if you take a step back, business rates are a tax on the occupation of property, and they are levied on the basis of the value of that property. If you occupy a more valuable property, you will pay more tax. The business rate system is working as the policy intended in that respect.

In terms of making it fairer, the best thing you can do is value property more frequently. Retail rents have been falling for the last 10 or 15 years. In the decade from 2010 to 2020, rents came down 30%, but business rates did not for that sector. Rents are negotiable—rents do respond—but it is business rates that do not. If valuations had kept up with rents, retail would have been paying much less, much earlier, and other sectors that had been growing would have been paying more much more quickly. To my mind, the best way to introduce fairness into the system is to value properties more frequently.

[The Chair]

That is the end of this session.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We have eight minutes left, five people still to speak, and a vote is due any second now.

[Deirdre Costigan]

Q Thank you, Minister. I know you are a former local government leader. I want to ask about local councils and what support there will be to ensure that they can administer the Bill and help to support rebalancing the high street in a way that I know all local authorities want.

Jim McMahon: Again, there is a wider context. It is about ending the cap-in-hand bidding process, through which the previous Government aligned councils, one by one, getting them to compete with each other for a very restricted pot of money to support local high street improvements. In the end, we must provide a fairer way of funding local councils, which has to be based on need. I will be careful again not to get ahead of next week’s provisional settlement, but measures will be very clear in there about the intent and the direction of travel. In the end, it is about making sure that councils have the resources they need to ensure that wherever a council is—outside of the bidding war that we saw previously—they have the resources to intervene on the high street.

Resource is part of that, but the powers are also important. The community right to buy, the asset register and having a proper period to be able to self-organise are part of that. The measure is about making sure that when businesses are open and they are operating, they are sustainable businesses because their tax burden from business rates is fair and equitable.