Northern Ireland Veterans: Prosecution

David Smith Excerpts

Monday 14th July 2025 Westminster Hall

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I share the dismay shown by the hon. and gallant Member for North East Derbyshire (Louise Jones) and others, when decrying the fact that the legacy legislation gave—I use her own words—“immunity to terrorists”. What nobody has yet spelled out is why it gave immunity to terrorists. There is a simple answer to that: it could not give immunity to our armed forces without giving immunity to terrorists as well.

Unless hon. and right hon. Members can come up with some brand new alternative—one that defeated the scrutiny and the inventiveness of successive Governments in trying to grapple with that problem—the question they have to ask themselves is, if the price of giving immunity to our veterans is that we have to give theoretical immunity to terrorists, most of whom have had practical immunity from prosecution for many years, and hardly any of whom are ever likely to be prosecuted, is that price worth paying? We cannot have it both ways.

Something that was rightly said earlier in the debate is that people should be trying to work across party lines to come to a solution on this, and I think that I can honestly claim to have been trying to do that for rather a long time. In 2017, the Defence Committee, which I was then chairing, published a report entitled “Investigations into Fatalities in Northern Ireland involving British Military Personnel”—HC 1064, if anyone is interested. The purpose of that report was to examine in great detail what the legal options were to enable the Government of the day to protect our veterans.

That report was published in April 2017 but, prior to that, on 7 March, we had a hearing—of which I have made the Secretary of State and the Veterans Minister aware—in which no fewer than four top professors of law took part, with a variety of views, preferences and personal attitudes towards what had happened in Northern Ireland and so forth. We were not asking them whether they approved of amnesties; we were asking them what was and was not legally possible. What they told us was this, and I am quite disappointed that no one has uttered these words, as far as I can tell, in the entire debate: it is possible to bring in a statute of limitation, and the requirement by law that something being investigated need not lead to somebody being prosecuted. Professor Philippe Sands, someone not unknown to the Government, stated in that hearing:

“The obligation to investigate is not an obligation to prosecute. It is not an obligation to take any particular steps. It is simply an obligation to find out the facts of what has happened, and ascertain.”

What was made clear in that discussion with the four professors of law was that if a Government were not to find themselves guilty of behaving with impunity, a statute of limitation had to apply to everyone. That is where people get upset, because the people who support our armed forces do not want it to apply to the terrorists, and the people from the republican movement do not want it to apply to our armed forces. But the fact is that if we are to protect anyone from prosecution in these circumstances, we have to protect everyone. Someone who just focuses on the group of which they disapprove being protected is ducking the hard choice that we have to face.

Someone mentioned trying to follow the model of Nelson Mandela. That is a very good point, and it is precisely what the legislation was intended to do. We satisfied ourselves that a truth recovery process, coupled with a statute of limitation—in other words, immunity—for people who gave their evidence to the truth recovery process, similar to what Mandela did in South Africa, was a way in which this problem could be laid to rest. When the Government say that they plan to give our soldiers every support, it sounds to me that they accept the fact that cases are going to be brought, and they are going to try and support the soldiers. But the punishment is the process. It is true that probably hardly anyone will end up going through the process to the end.

Let me insert something else that I referred to in an earlier intervention: people on both sides of the debate say we must not equate this and that, and I certainly do not equate soldiers with terrorists morally, but in applying the law, the law has to be equal for everybody. In fact, that has already been recognised in the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998, which limits the time that anybody can serve in jail, even for the most heinous murders, to two years. That is the only time someone can serve in jail. There may be people who have had relatives murdered who will derive great satisfaction from the fact that, after all this time, the murderer will go to jail for such a short period. But the reality is that the punishment does not fit the crime, and at first some of us thought that this was just a free pass for the IRA. I will not name the Minister concerned, but I and someone from the Labour Benches with a strong service background, who is now a Minister, went to meet the Sinn Féin MPs in Parliament—because they do have a presence here, even though they do not come to the Chamber. They said that they believed that the two-year limit applied to the soldiers as well as to their own allies. We looked into it and checked it with Ministers, and that was found to be correct. The fact is that we are already compromising. We are already treating both groups the same.

[David Smith (North Northumberland) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Member give way?

[Sir Julian Lewis]

I was about to finish, but I will give way.

[David Smith]

I have to declare, having set up another peacemaking programme in Northern Ireland myself and done a master’s degree in reconciliation studies, that the legacy Act was very much not a South African-style truth and reconciliation commission. The right hon. Member is talking about the equating of terrorists on one hand and our armed forces on the other; I simply ask, what would he say to victims on how they could pursue justice under the legacy Act as was?

[Sir Julian Lewis]

When we are talking about victims of terrorists, I would ask, first of all, how likely is it that terrorists who have not been prosecuted all these years are going to be prosecuted in the future? Secondly, how do people think the victims felt in South Africa when a line was drawn for the sake of enabling the society to move forward?

What the legacy Act did was the least worst option. As we have heard, the reality is that there is no obligation to act on the finding of incompatibility with the ECHR. The Joint Committee on Human Rights published a report entitled “Proposal for a Draft Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 (Remedial) Order 2024”, which states in paragraph 20:

“It is a discretionary remedy, meaning the courts do not have to issue such a declaration”—

of incompatibility with the ECHR—

“when they find a provision to be incompatible with Convention rights. A declaration of incompatibility has no legal effect and does not affect the ongoing validity of the incompatible legislation. It is merely a tool by which the courts can draw attention to an incompatibility; it is then for the Government and Parliament to decide what action, if any, to take.”

Indeed, section 4 of the Human Rights Act 1998 states that a declaration of incompatibility

“does not affect the validity, continuing operation or enforcement of the provision in respect of which it is given; and…is not binding on the parties to the proceedings in which it is made.”

I accept that there are other legal problems, but the impression that I get from the Secretary of State, whom I have known for many years and much admire, is that he has set his face against this route of a statute of limitation, coupled with a truth recovery process, and is not really listening. That is why we are not fighting to keep in place the one thing that could give protection to our Northern Ireland military veterans.

European Remembrance Day for Victims of Terrorism

David Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 11th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Robinson]

I am very grateful for the intervention from the hon. Lady. I think she is right that we cannot squander the opportunity, but for too long now I have heard voices within the Government say that the one thing the parties of Northern Ireland can agree on is their opposition to the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023, but for very different reasons. Very often, we do not get the opportunity to fully explore those very different reasons, and for our part, we will never stand in the way of justice and we will always support innocent victims.

[David Smith (North Northumberland) (Lab)]

I thank the right hon. Member for securing this important debate on such a moving subject. I, too, was very honoured to go with him and other members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee to visit SEFF in Fermanagh last week, and it was profoundly moving. Does he agree with me that, as part of dealing with this legacy, truth, justice and reconciliation must be intentional parts of the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery going forward?

[Gavin Robinson]

It was interesting to hear the reflections of some who said, “Why do I need to reconcile? I’ve been blown up. I’ve been shot. I’ve lost my father, my mother, my sister, my brother. Why is the onus on me to reconcile? I should be honoured for the sacrifice that I’ve made or been forced to go through, but where is somebody coming along to say, ‘I’m sorry. You did not deserve what occurred to you or your family member, you didn’t need to live through the pain and you don’t deserve the scars that you bear.’?” So I agree with the hon. Member entirely that much more focus is required on reconciliation.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Claire Hanna (Belfast South and Mid Down) (SDLP)]

4. What progress his Department has made on reforming the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery.

[David Smith (North Northumberland) (Lab)]

11. What discussions he has had with stakeholder groups on Northern Ireland's legacy.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

As I set out on 4 December, the Government have now begun the process of repealing and replacing the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 through a proposed remedial order, and we will bring forward primary legislation, including to reform the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery. In preparing for that, I will continue to talk to all interested parties.

[Hilary Benn]

I have met both the Brown family and Alan Black, the sole survivor of the Kingsmill massacre. The trauma they have been through is hard for anyone else to appreciate. We all look forward to the publication of the ombudsman’s report on the Kingsmill massacre. I want to see a full investigation into the murder of Sean Brown, but there is an appeal on wider matters and I cannot comment further. I am committed to fundamental reform of the independent commission.

[David Smith]

My first full-time job in the early 2000s was setting up and running a peacemaking programme for young people in Northern Ireland, so I am pleased that the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery was salvaged from the remains of the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023. However, I am concerned that in the discussions around legacy the goal of cross-community reconciliation is being treated as secondary to information recovery for individuals, important as that is. How will my right hon. Friend ensure that ICRIR works with key stakeholders to foster cross-community reconciliation in Northern Ireland?

[Hilary Benn]

My hon. Friend raises a really important point. Enabling families who have suffered for so long and who have not found answers to what happened is a fundamental part of facilitating the process of reconciliation in Northern Ireland. The truth is that we have to work on both aspects.

Northern Ireland: Legacy of the Troubles

David Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 4th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

I hope that it might be possible to reach agreement with the Irish Government about how we take this forward. Whether they withdraw the interstate case is, of course, entirely a matter for them, but only yesterday I had discussions with Micheál Martin, the Justice Minister Helen McEntee and the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, in which we discussed these matters. I regard that dialogue as very important to building confidence.

In answer to the hon. Gentleman’s second question on when the legislation will be forthcoming, I can only repeat myself: when parliamentary time allows. On his third question on keeping open the prospect of abolishing ICRIR, I simply say that one could do that—there are those who would argue for it. That would bring to a halt the cases that have already started, and to each of those families who have taken the decision to approach ICRIR, that case really matters. We would be saying to them, “Right. Forget that” and we would waste all the money that has been put into establishing ICRIR so that it has the capacity to do its work, and waste another year or two. As I have said, nobody is getting any younger.

In the end, in most of the discussions that I have had, I have asked people, “Do you think we need an information recovery function?” They have said yes. I have asked, “Do you think that we need a means of continuing investigation?” They have said yes. That is what was contained in the Stormont House agreement, and I am not yet persuaded that scrapping that, to recreate something that ends up looking not dissimilar from what we have at the moment, is a terribly sensible or pragmatic approach to take. However, I am open to conversations in the way that I set out about what more we can do on ICRIR to increase the public’s confidence in it.

[David Smith (North Northumberland) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. I was in Belfast this week with other members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, and it was clear that all sections of Northern Ireland society were opposed to the legacy Act as it was constituted. Will the Secretary of State work with all stakeholders going forward, including the Irish Government, as he plans a new way forward on legacy and as he considers how to have full co-operation from the Irish Government in relation to information they may hold on legacy cases?

[Hilary Benn]

I am very happy to give my hon. Friend that assurance. I have had a lot of meetings and discussions already, and to quote that phrase, I shall have further such meetings over the next few months, because I am determined to work as hard as I can to try, as I indicated a moment ago, to find a way forward. The discussions that we have had thus far with the Irish Government, who were resolutely opposed to the legislation that the previous Government put on the statute book, along with everybody else, and the fact that we have demonstrated our willingness to be open to a debate about changes that can be made, has been a real step forward.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

Advice is being provided about the general product safety regulation. Many companies already meet its terms, because they are exporting from the UK to the European Union. There are steps that some businesses will have to take, but I hope the impact will be very small, because there is a way to get through it.

[David Smith (North Northumberland) (Lab)]

8. What discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Executive on tackling violence against women and girls.

[Alistair Strathern (Hitchin) (Lab)]

10. What discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Executive on tackling violence against women and girls.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We want to get to PMQs, but we will not achieve it at this rate.

[David Smith]

According to Women’s Aid, a fifth of all crime in Northern Ireland is domestic abuse. We know that paramilitary organisations make reporting, confronting or escaping such abuse even more difficult. How are the Government working with the Northern Ireland Executive to break down those coercive barriers to support for women and girls?

[Fleur Anderson]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising that question. Alongside the alarming femicide statistics, there are other factors that add to the complexity of gender-based violence in Northern Ireland, and it is important to recognise and take action to prevent these factors—paramilitarism is one of them. We need to tackle the grip of paramilitaries to end this abuse.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Deirdre Costigan (Ealing Southall) (Lab)]

7. Whether he has had discussions with the Northern Ireland Executive on the budget sustainability plan.

[David Smith (North Northumberland) (Lab)]

10. Whether he has had discussions with the Northern Ireland Executive on the budget sustainability plan.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

Where were we, Mr Speaker?

I welcome the publication of the Northern Ireland Executive’s budget sustainability plan—a positive and necessary step towards sustainable public finances—and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has agreed with the Northern Ireland Finance Minister that discussions over a long-term fiscal framework for Northern Ireland can now begin.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hilary Benn]

Given that the European convention on human rights is one of the foundations of the Good Friday agreement, I am frankly astonished that anyone who aspires to lead His Majesty’s Opposition should suggest that our country should leave the ECHR. It would be utterly irresponsible.

[David Smith]

I commend all those who worked to re-establish devolved government earlier this year at Stormont. It is now vital that the Northern Ireland Executive ensure that they have sustainable finances. Does the Secretary of State agree that revenue raising by the Northern Ireland Executive has an important part to play in delivering financial sustainability and stability to Northern Ireland?

[Hilary Benn]

I do. Indeed, raising £113 million was part of the deal that the last Government put in place as part of the £3.3 billion package that led to the restoration—well, that followed the restoration of the Executive. That includes delivering a balanced budget in the current year, and I am very encouraged by the statements of the Northern Ireland Finance Minister in that regard.