Court of Justice of the European Union

David Nuttall Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

It is true that every time the competence of the European institutions is enlarged through treaty amendments, the potential case load of the European Court of Justice is also enlarged. However, as I shall come to demonstrate, the reason for these particular reforms is largely to do with an increase in the case load as a result of litigation by private parties, particularly on single market matters. The case load that the reforms are intended to address certainly does not arise out of the negotiation of the fiscal compact by 25 member states last year.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Lidington]

I will give way to my hon. Friend, and then I shall make progress.

[Mr Nuttall]

My right hon. Friend makes a good point in saying that the ECJ’s increasing work load is often owing to disputes between private organisations. In the past, those disputes would often have been resolved here in London, as a result of contracts providing for the determination to be under English law. Therefore is not the work of European judges replacing the work of British judges?

[Mr Lidington]

Under successive Governments, the United Kingdom has supported the principle that we should be part of a single European market with a set of common regulations and legal provisions, because Conservative and Labour Governments alike, and now the coalition Government, have taken the view, backed by British industry for the overwhelming part, that that is to the economic advantage of British businesses—both manufacturers and service providers—the United Kingdom economy and the prosperity of our people.

Let us look at the justification for the package of measures before us. The House of Lords European Union Committee set out in its report of March 2011 how the work load of the Court had increased substantially in recent years. Between 2007 and 2011, new cases at the European Court of Justice increased by 18%. In paragraph 44 of its report, the Committee noted that

“We believe that the expansion of the CJ’s jurisdiction into the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice introduced by the Lisbon Treaty, coupled with the increase of EU membership to 27 States, will have an impact on the CJ’s ability to manage its workload. We predict another crisis of workload soon.”

What has also happened is that the number of cases going to the ECJ on appeal has increased significantly in recent years. For example, in 2008 just seven cases relating to competition law went on appeal to the ECJ; in 2011, the total had risen to 52 such cases. Given the Court’s key role as the arbiter of the single market and the advantage that the United Kingdom’s business community derives from the single market, dealing with the problem of delays and the overload of the Court is in the United Kingdom’s national interest.

European Council

David Nuttall Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Andrea Leadsom]

Yes, I agree. The key issue is that if these countries are to have sovereign risk, they must completely guarantee and underwrite each other’s debt and obligations. That is very unlikely ever to be achieved in the EU, which just makes the problem of not having a lender of last resort even more existential for the eurozone. I therefore have genuine concerns about whether the proposals actually offer a solution.

Here we are on the eve of a very important summit, which is designed, on the face of it at least, to put the market’s fears to bed once and for all. The Prime Minister has a strong hand, because the German Chancellor and the French President need a treaty at the 27 member state level, for two practical reasons. First, if they started again, with just the 17 eurozone members trying to create a treaty between themselves, they simply could not do that in the time frame that the markets would permit them. That is a very practical issue, which they need to consider. Under the Lisbon treaty, however, treaty changes can be fast-tracked. Secondly, as was pointed out earlier, the 17, as a group, could not simply annex the EU institutions and use them for themselves; they would require the permission of the 27 EU members. For both those reasons, a treaty is needed at the 27 member state level, and that makes the Prime Minister’s hand very strong.

Like other Members, I am pleased that the Prime Minister is absolutely determined to protect Britain’s interests. What does that mean? First and foremost for every EU member, regardless of whether it is in or out of the euro, that must be about stopping the crisis—there is no doubt about that. If the euro descends into a disorderly collapse, that will easily cost 6% or 7% of British GDP, and it would probably push us into a worse recession than the one after the financial crisis of 2008. There is therefore no doubt that our top priority should be to solve the eurozone crisis.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

As my hon. Friend will be aware, this is not the first time European leaders have met to try to resolve the crisis in the eurozone. Why does she think that eurozone leaders and, indeed, the leaders of the whole EU will be any more successful this time than they were on any of the previous occasions when they met to try to come up with a grand solution to save the euro?

[Andrea Leadsom]

I thank my hon. Friend for those remarks. There is a desire to come up with a solution; but as I said, I do not think that it will work, for reasons of economics and the markets’ actions. I hear what my hon. Friend says.

Britain is clearly struggling to recover. The eurozone crisis is testing us and is close to pushing us back into a no-growth, or even a recessionary, period. We therefore need to look after Britain’s interests by not only protecting the eurozone, but ensuring that we create safeguards for our most important industry, and I want to put in a plea for financial services.

There has been a lot of talk about holding a referendum, changing the common agricultural policy or simply repatriating powers, but what do all those things mean? If we hold a referendum, what would the question be? How quickly and easily could people understand enough about the implications of a question such as whether we should allow the 17 fiscally to unite? That is an extraordinarily complicated question, and referendum questions really need to be along simple lines, such as whether Britain should be in or out of the EU. At a time when these things are in flux, that is almost impossible to answer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrea Leadsom]

That is an important point, because the Prime Minister will not be just having a chat and getting general agreement; he will want to get a firm assurance and put a marker in the sand saying, “We feel your pain and share your goal and will want to protect Britain’s specific national interest by including our own requirement in the treaty.” There cannot be simply a gentleman’s handshake, so that what is agreed can be watered down later. There must be a firm commitment on all sides that Britain’s national interest will be protected.

[Mr Nuttall]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the problem with marks in the sand is that, when the tide comes in, they get washed away?

[Andrea Leadsom]

That is a good observation and I have noticed that, but it was not what I meant, and my hon. Friend knows it. What I have outlined is down to the Prime Minister to achieve. He has committed to do it. We must have confidence in his determination to follow it through.

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin Horwood]

The hon. Gentleman makes a rather interesting point about regulation of the smallest businesses, because we have a rather good case study. The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), has been active in going to other European Ministers, in particular those with a similar outlook on economic policy, and taking a collaborative, positive and co-operative approach to reach agreement that we should lift onerous accounting rules from the smallest businesses, not only in this country but throughout Europe. [Interruption.] It might be a small concession, but it was progress through a collaborative process that has lifted some of the burden of European regulation from businesses in the UK. There will be other examples of what Members may call repatriation, if they want. In fisheries policy, we are likely to see the movement of powers over fisheries from the European level to national and regional levels in future. So it is possible to achieve change without a confrontational attitude and, as in both those cases, without treaty change.

As I have said, to defend Britain’s interests during the whole process is important. One of the ways to do so is to prevent marginalisation, which is a real danger. To an extent, I share some of the anxieties expressed by Conservative Members—it could happen that we might be excluded from the core of decision making in Europe—and I would not be happy with the Labour party’s approach that we should be observers to the process. I want us to be participants. We must ensure that Britain plays a central role in whatever new structures emerge from the crisis, and we need to be able to discuss and debate with the members of the eurozone how their economies move forward. As EU members, we will always have more say in the process than we would do if we committed the ultimate act of economic suicide and left the European Union, as some hon. Members might want. The risk, however, is that some marginalisation is possible, although we increase the risk of that if we roll up at European Councils with a list of unrealistic demands and throw a spanner in the work of resolving possibly the biggest crisis to have faced continental Europe for decades. That does not do us much good.

[Mr Nuttall]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Martin Horwood]

I will give one example. The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) mentioned clearing house regulations. Since that dealt with transactions governing euros, how would we have influenced that legislation had we been outside the European Union? We might have found that by leaving the European Union we had excluded ourselves from such decision making and enabled the EU to take precisely that kind of decision, to the immediate detriment of the British economy and the status of the City of London, which is a European asset as well as a British asset.

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin Horwood]

That is a lovely rhetorical line, but that accusation has been levelled at the Liberal Democrats on many fronts, and yet we find ourselves in government and sticking to the letter and the spirit of our manifesto on a whole range of issues. [Interruption.] I opposed the increase in tuition fees and think that we ought to have stuck to that policy, too. We have, however, certainly delivered on the pupil premium and a whole range of things, such as taking many of the lowest paid out of taxation altogether or developing the green economy, and we will stick to our pledge on the European Union as well, which is to act responsibly and to propose referendums when it is appropriate, which will involve a wholesale examination of the relationship of nation states to the European Union. That is not happening at the moment, because we are looking at an economic crisis in which the eurozone countries face a fundamental question about control of fiscal discipline. Germany, quite reasonably, is saying that, in return for any shift towards, for instance, the European Central Bank acting as a lender of last resort, some process of fiscal discipline that is rather stronger than the one that has operated inside the eurozone until now must be enforced. The other member countries, however, retain the choice whether to submit to that fiscal discipline or to plan some different future for themselves.

[Mr Nuttall]

On a specific point about the proposals that the Franco-German axis has come up with, is it not the case that if the eurozone had stuck to the rules that already govern it, it would not be in the mess that it is in today? It is in a mess, because no one was enforcing the rules.

[Martin Horwood]

I surprise myself again by finding myself in agreement with that statement. I completely agree with it. That was one of the weaknesses of the euro’s establishment and the stability mechanism surrounding it. It is precisely the sort of weakness that the eurozone countries must now address, and I think they clearly understand that, too. I suspect that some member Governments—Greece may be one—deeply regret having entered such a relaxed arrangement without the sort of fiscal discipline that was needed to make it work. That is probably common ground among people of all parties in many different countries.

The important message for Ministers going to the European Council and for the Prime Minister is that British national interests are at stake in the process, but that we can serve them best by acting positively and collaboratively and by taking an approach based on co-operation, not confrontation. As I have said, it is not always necessary to confront people to achieve shifts in responsibility to national level—we have seen that with regard to small businesses, and we may see it with regard to fisheries—and we must develop that sort of grown-up approach to EU politics, not a constant obsessive, confrontational attitude.

When it comes to talking about the Prime Minister’s position being comparable with that of Neville Chamberlain, and therefore implying that in some way our European partners are comparable to the Nazis—[Interruption.] I am sorry, but if the Prime Minister is Neville Chamberlain, who is he getting the piece of paper from? Such language in this debate has been deeply offensive. It is unworthy of this Parliament; it is unworthy of the Conservative party; it is profoundly insulting to the Prime Minister; and it is exactly the sort of xenophobic rhetoric that risks discrediting this country and deeply damaging our national interests.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Thank you, Mrs Main, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) on securing this debate this afternoon. I must say, as others have already said, that I find it incredible that, at a time when—as we all know—there is very little Government business going through the House of Commons, time could not be found for this debate to take place in the main Chamber. But we are where we are and we need to deal with the issue of what the Prime Minister should seek to do at this week’s European Council meeting.

At one level, European Union affairs are incredibly complex, with treaties, directives, regulations, protocols, opt-ins and opt-outs. It is all very confusing and legalistic. To be fair, it is very difficult for me, as a Member of the House of Commons with an interest in European matters, to follow the twists and turns of affairs in the European Union, so how much more difficult must it be for voters outside this House in their day-to-day lives? I say that without wanting to sound patronising. Politically, however, the issue is very simple: do we, as a country, want to continue with our present relationship with the European Union? Personally, I say, “No, we don’t,” and I believe that the overwhelming majority of the British people would also answer, “No,” to that question. This weekend’s European Council meeting presents a tremendous opportunity to start to rebalance the competences and powers between the European Union and this country.

Mention has been made of the danger of Europe developing into two groups, but we already have two groups. There are the countries in the eurozone and the ones that have not adopted the euro. We already have, if you like, a two-speed Europe, but I do not like to use that term, because it implies that countries that are going more slowly will sooner or later finish up in the same place as the ones going somewhat faster. It is right, however, to think of a two-tier Europe, with one Europe that is the eurozone, tied up in red tape and regulation, and looking only inwards, at how it can grasp ever more power. That is what we are seeing from the eurozone countries this weekend, and it is what we have already seen in the pre-meeting between France and Germany. They do not see the way forward as having less regulation, less bureaucracy and more freedom for nation states; they want to move faster towards the European Union’s declared aim of ever closer union. They see this as a great means of speeding up the project and bringing everyone together more quickly, so that Brussels will have yet more control over the member states in the eurozone.

We must be honest with our European neighbours. The whole structure of the European Union is being looked at, so there is no better time for us to sit down with our European neighbours and say, “Right. Great. No problem. If you want to get on with ever closer union, that’s fine. You crack on with it but, frankly, we don’t want to go there. We prefer another path, from where we can look to the rest of the world. We want our companies to be able to compete in a global marketplace, not just arguing within Europe and trying to get by with all the rules and regulations that are enforced by Brussels.” There is no better time than now to put our cards on the table and say what we want back. We could all have our own ideas, perhaps a shopping list of individual opt-outs, or the excellent idea presented in his opening speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex that what we need, and what I think the vast majority of the British people would expect, to be brought back from this European Council meeting is an opt-out, to the extent that in the future this country ought to be able to say, “Thanks very much for this but, frankly, it’s not suitable for the UK.” That should be retrospective as well as prospective. We should be given back the right to look through the European legislation that has already been enforced and determine what is not suitable for this country.

One would think that this would be quite a simple idea, but because Germany and France are wedded to the ideal of ever closer union enshrined in the founding treaty, the very idea that a member state could start repatriating powers is anathema to those who believe in the European Union project and in ever closer union. It is more than an economic union to them; they want not just a single currency but an economic and political union, with the development of what will become, effectively, the united states of Europe. I believe that the vast majority of the British people do not want that. I entirely respect the honourable position that has been adopted for many years, particularly by our friends in the Liberal Democrat party. That may well be why the party gets only 10% of the vote in opinion polls—I do not know—but it is nevertheless an honourable position. It is a small minority of the British people who think in that way, but it is an honourable position, and that is fine. It is great in a democracy that we have that other position, but I think that the vast majority of the British people want a much looser arrangement of our position within the European Union, and what better time to start than now? This weekend is the time to start renegotiating our position.

I know that other speakers want to get in, but in my final couple of minutes let me deal with the question of a referendum. My hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), who is not in her place, said that she thought that the Prime Minister had a strong hand. I agree that he does, because if others wanted us to not use our veto he could say, “Well, okay, I won’t use the veto provided I can have this, this, this and this.” However, how much stronger a hand would our Prime Minister have if this country had held a referendum of the sort we discussed on 24 October? If such a referendum had already been held, the Prime Minister of this country could have gone to Europe and said, “Look, I have the backing of the British people in a referendum.”

There has been much talk this afternoon about whether in view of the fact that we have the European Union Act 2011 it is right that there should be a referendum. I draw Members’ attention to paragraph 48 of the explanatory notes to what was then the European Union Bill:

“a referendum would be required before the UK can approve the extension of any competence of the EU relating to: (i) the coordination of economic and employment policies; or (ii) the EU’s common foreign and security policy.”

If what is suggested by Merkel and Sarkozy is not the co-ordination of economic policy, I do not know what is. So surely that Government explanatory note gives us our right to demand a referendum on the outcome of the negotiations.

Judiciary and Fundamental Rights

David Nuttall Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Although I appreciate that as usual with these matters the accession of Croatia is essentially a done deal, I want to raise one or two concerns about the accession process and the consequences that agreeing to Croatia joining the European Union will have on the United Kingdom.

It is anticipated that the formal accession agreement will be signed at the European Council meeting scheduled for 9 December, but it appears that EU leaders are effectively taking it on trust that Croatia will complete the necessary preparations before it is formally allowed to join on 1 July 2013. As my right hon. Friend the Minister said, however, Croatia needs to do a lot more. Paragraph 7 of the explanatory memorandum, which quotes the Commission’s own assessment, spells out that further efforts are needed from Croatia in order to improve the independence, impartiality, efficiency and professionalism of its judiciary, and that only if the commitments made by Croatia are met will that country be ready.

As the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) spelled out in his clear speech, it is obvious that whatever processes were in place when Bulgaria and Romania were allowed to become members of the EU, the checking mechanism in advance did not work. Now, years later, there are still problems with those countries. It is to be hoped that the checking mechanism between now and July 2013 will be slightly more rigorous than it was for Bulgaria and Romania.

In principle, I have nothing against any country wishing to join the EU, if that is what the country and its people wish, but I have concerns if the admission of a new member state will adversely affect the interests of the United Kingdom. So far, I have seen nothing about how much Croatia might contribute to the EU budget. Indeed, some might be forgiven for thinking that Croatia’s accession will just mean the equivalent of yet another hungry mouth to feed. The European Commission has recently proposed the expenditure of an additional €13.1 million to deal with Croatian accession, to be spent on such things as Croatian translations and, of course, opening a new office in Croatia.

The accession of Croatia will mean that there will be over 4 million more citizens within the borders of the European Union. As we know only too well, following the accession of other eastern European countries to the European Union, a citizen of a member state has the right to take up employment in any other member state. Once in employment, he or she has the right to reside in that member state and is also entitled to certain welfare provision.

[Mr Hollobone]

Does my hon. Friend recall the difficulty that Her Majesty’s Government are currently facing with European nationals coming to this country who are not seeking employment, but who declare themselves to be self-employed and, through that mechanism, access benefits that Her Majesty’s Government give out? With 4 million new EU nationals effectively created by this new accession, that is bound to add to the problem.

[Mr Nuttall]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. He raises a problem that will only be exacerbated by the accession of Croatia. I would be grateful to know what specific transitional arrangements are being put in place in respect of Croatian nationals wishing to come to the United Kingdom and, in particular, for how long such controls will be in place.

Furthermore, I am concerned that yet another treaty will be required to provide for the accession of a new entrant to the European Union, for which we, the United Kingdom, appear to be getting absolutely nothing back in return—and needless to say, without consulting the British people.

[Martin Horwood]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept, however, that British exports to Croatia currently amount to some £283 million a year? In general, the experience with other acceding countries has been expanded trade with those countries, which has helped British jobs, prosperity and economic prospects.

[Mr Nuttall]

That may well be the case, but I see no reason why we could not have negotiated a free trade deal with Croatia many years ago. Indeed, the question could have been asked of the previous Labour Government: if Croatia has so much trade with this country, why did we not negotiate a free trade deal with it a long time ago?

Let me quote what the Prime Minister said about getting something back from accession treaties. In a speech helpfully entitled “A Europe policy that people can believe in”, which he made a little over two years ago, on 4 November 2009, when he was the Leader of the Opposition, he said that

“we will want to negotiate the return of Britain’s opt-out from social and employment legislation in those areas which have proved most damaging to our economy and public service…We will want a complete opt-out from the Charter of Fundamental Rights.”

He added that an agreement would be negotiated

“limiting the European Court of Justice’s jurisdiction over criminal law to its pre-Lisbon level, and ensuring that only British authorities can initiate criminal investigations in Britain.”

Crucially, he made it clear that

“we will propose that these British guarantees are added as protocols to a future accession treaty,”

which is exactly what we are discussing this evening. I know that our negotiating team will have been well aware of those crystal-clear commitments.

In closing, may I ask my right hon. Friend the Minister to confirm that those guarantees were proposed and to say what the response was? If they were not proposed, why not? If they were proposed and the response was—let me say—not entirely positive, did we indicate that we would withhold our veto if our polite proposals were not granted? After all, article 49 of the Lisbon treaty—which was the reason why that speech was given in the first place—which deals with accession treaties, specifically states that accession treaties deal with

“conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties on which the Union is founded which such admission entails.”

It should be argued therefore that the granting of these British guarantees is something that the admission of Croatia entails: without them, the accession could not take place, because Britain would use its veto.

National Referendum on the European Union

David Nuttall Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House calls upon the Government to introduce a Bill in the next session of Parliament to provide for the holding of a national referendum on whether the United Kingdom should

(a) remain a member of the European Union on the current terms;

(b) leave the European Union; or

(c) re-negotiate the terms of its membership in order to create a new relationship based on trade and co-operation.

The motion stands in my name and those of many other right hon. and hon. Members.

I must start by thanking the Backbench Business Committee for providing time for today’s debate. It is an historic debate, and the amount of interest generated in advance of it has surely put beyond any doubt the fact that the public are concerned about this matter. It fully vindicates the establishment of the Committee, and its decision to facilitate the debate. I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), for Christchurch (Mr Chope), for Clacton (Mr Carswell), for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) and for Wycombe (Steve Baker), along with many others, for their tireless work and support from the very outset. With the leave of the House, my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) will briefly wind up the debate.

The motion reflects the wishes of the hundreds of thousands of people who have signed petitions calling for a referendum on the United Kingdom’s future relationship with the European Union. Opinion polls clearly show that millions of others agree with them: in fact, the vast majority of the British people want a vote in a referendum. The arguments for and against the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union can wait until a future referendum campaign. The motion that is before us today simply paves the way for a referendum to be held on some future, as yet unspecified, date. Therefore, any argument that now is not the right time for a referendum to be held is, quite frankly, irrelevant. Even if the motion is passed today, a referendum is likely to be years away.

One reason for people’s increasing concern about our membership of the European Union is the growing sense that this country, indeed this Parliament, is becoming ever more impotent as more and more decisions are taken in Brussels and then passed down to the United Kingdom to implement, whether we like it or not.

I want to mention one very important example of that from my constituency of Bury North. Before the last general election, the Conservatives pledged that if we won the election we would keep open the children’s department, including the maternity ward and special care baby unit, at Fairfield hospital in Bury, which was scheduled to close under Labour’s plans. Sadly, despite that pledge, and despite massive local opposition to the closure plans, these vital services are still destined to close, and one of the driving forces behind the closure plans is the effect of the European working time directive. Thousands of my constituents feel completely let down, and even at this late stage I urge the Government to keep that pre-election pledge and to ensure these services are retained at Fairfield hospital.

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

Two weeks ago at the Inverclyde Royal hospital, 23-year-old doctor Lauren Connelly died in a car crash. All her colleagues believe that that was a result of her having worked exhaustingly long hours. We should not mock the working time directive. Although it is sometimes improperly applied in the UK, it is also saving the lives of doctors and patients.

[Mr Nuttall]

I believe it is for this Parliament to decide what rules and regulations should be taken up.

The voters know that the tentacles of the European Union intrude into ever more areas of our national life. Understandably, they are saddened—and, indeed, disillusioned—at being fobbed off, as they see it, by the political elite, who always seem to find a reason to stop them having their say.

More than a decade ago, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary coined the phrase, “We want to be in Europe, but not run by Europe.” The sad fact is that since then we have increasingly become run by Europe. I and millions of others in this country want to be in Britain, and run by Britain.

More than 36 years have passed since anyone had the chance to have their say on this crucial matter, and in that time not a single power has ever been repatriated. I suspect that for some in this House there will never be a right time for a referendum on this issue, but I think that, by anybody’s standards, nearly four decades is quite long enough to wait.

Moreover, almost two thirds of the people of the United Kingdom have never had the opportunity to vote on this issue. Indeed, figures supplied by the House of Commons Library show that approximately 8 million of the people who voted yes to continuing our membership of the Common Market back in 1975 are still alive today. That is just 16% of the current voting age population, leaving a staggering 84% who have never voted in favour of Britain’s continued membership of the European Economic Community.

[Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)]

Back in 1975, I was engaged in political work but I was also too young to have a vote, so I am very glad that my hon. Friend has raised this important point so early in the debate. The people of South Derbyshire sent me here so that we can have votes on issues such as the one before us.

[Mr Nuttall]

I thank my hon. Friend. I will now press on.

A staggering 84% of the current voting age population have never voted in favour of Britain’s continued membership of the EEC, never mind the European Union. Furthermore, if I were a betting man, I would wager that some of those who voted yes back in 1975 may well have since changed their minds. The Common Market has fundamentally changed in size and powers as it has been transformed into the European Union, and without the British people ever being consulted, of course.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Why does the hon. Gentleman think that the Prime Minister has not stayed to listen to his speech?

[Mr Nuttall]

I am sure that the Prime Minister has many important duties to attend to.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. The key point is that what this country joined was, in essence, a free trade area, and that since that time we have seen the continual salami-slicing of our sovereignty and the British people have still not yet been consulted on that change. The Government may talk about referendum locks, but that is tilting at windmills, given that no treaty is on the horizon and that key competences and powers are being transferred in the meantime. It is time to consult the people.

[Mr Nuttall]

The European Union Act 2011 deals with the future, but this motion deals with where we are today. People already feel that too many powers have been passed on. At a time when people pick up their phones and spend their own money voting week in, week out to keep their favourite contestants on programmes such as “Strictly Come Dancing” and “The X Factor”, many will be baffled as to why the Government and all those who oppose this motion seem keen to prevent them from having their chance to vote on Britain’s future relationship with the European Union.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. Does he agree that people will be even more baffled to understand the position of the Liberal Democrats? They stood on an election manifesto to have an in/out referendum and actually marched out of this House in the previous Parliament because they were denied one, so does he not agree that people will be particularly baffled as to why none of those charlatans over there will be voting for this motion?

[Mr Nuttall]

I am sure that millions of Liberal Democrat voters would appreciate having the chance to have their say.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

The hon. Gentleman will know, as I am sure he read the Liberal Democrat manifesto very carefully, that we committed to an in/out referendum at the time of a fundamental shift. That is why we supported an in/out referendum and proposed one in this Chamber at the time of the Lisbon treaty. Perhaps he can explain why every one of his then Conservative colleagues voted against that motion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Nuttall]

The fact is that all the opinion polls show that approximately two thirds of the people want a referendum now.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Here it is in black and white—it was in orange. This is exactly what the Liberal Democrats wanted to give the people and I am surprised that they are not honouring it today.

[Mr Nuttall]

The situation we find ourselves in is rather like that of someone who has boarded a slow train going in one direction and finds, just as they are settling in, that the train starts to career off at high speed in a completely different direction, with carriages being added on left, right and centre, and they are locked in and have no way of getting off. Worse still, the longer people are on the train, the more the fare goes up, but there is absolutely nothing they can do about it because any negotiation with the guards or the driver is almost impossible. This motion would simply allow the train to stop for a while so that the passengers can decide whether they want to continue the journey or even disembark.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

A lot of changes are happening throughout Europe. Does my hon. Friend accept that we need to add some junctions to the track in order to identify whether alternative routes are available? Does he agree that we should not wait for a referendum before doing that?

[Mr Nuttall]

I believe that now is the time to start—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I appeal to the House to settle down? A large number of noisy private conservations are taking place, which add nothing to, but subtract much from, the debate. Let us hear Mr David Nuttall.

[Mr Nuttall]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I believe that it is now time to start the process of consulting the British people once more. I say “start” because that is all that this motion seeks to do.

[Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend also acknowledge that not only is he moving this motion, but more than 100,000 people have signed an e-petition to 10 Downing street calling for him to do just this?

[Mr Nuttall]

If one added together all the petitions, one would find that many hundreds of thousands of people have called for us to debate this issue.

I am conscious that this is one of the most, if not the most, heavily subscribed Back-Bench debates ever. In conclusion, with the three largest parties in the House all apparently instructing their MPs to vote against the motion despite what those MPs might individually believe to be the best course of action for our country, the result tonight may not be in very much doubt. Members can vote either to give their constituents a choice on Britain’s ongoing relationship with the European Union or to deny them that opportunity. It is as simple as that. If my fellow MPs join me in voting to give the British people a choice in a referendum, they can do so with a clear conscience, knowing that they will have a very large majority of the British people on their side.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I want to hear the hon. Gentleman’s response.

[Mr Nuttall]

We always have to be careful about whether we are listening to the vocal minority or the silent majority. I believe that on this issue we should listen to the majority of the British people, who clearly want a referendum.

Some 40 million people of voting age alive today in this country have not voted in favour of Britain’s membership of the European Union, and this motion would start to put that right. Those who oppose it may well be smiling today, but winning votes in the House using strong-arm tactics does nothing to help to rebuild trust in politicians or to persuade the public that the majority inside the House are reflecting their views. Those who oppose the motion may well win this battle, but they most certainly will not win the war. We should remember the saying that he who laughs last laughs longest. I commend the motion to the House.

Human Rights on the Indian Subcontinent

David Nuttall Excerpts

Thursday 15th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Let me start by congratulating my hon. Friends the Members for Wycombe (Steve Baker) and for Ilford North (Mr Scott) on securing this debate. I also want to thank the Backbench Business Committee for allocating some of the precious time at its disposal for this afternoon’s debate.

I want to restrict my remarks to the situation in Jammu and Kashmir. Having previously represented Bury North, my hon. Friend the Minister will be aware that thousands of my constituents have a personal concern about the human rights abuses taking place in Jammu and Kashmir. Many have personal knowledge of the problems in that part of the world, while many have families still living there who regularly witness the human rights abuses that are taking place. However, it is not possible in the brief time available to do more than highlight the main points of what we all know is a long-running issue.

The seeds of the current conflict were sown more than half a century ago in 1947, when the partition of India took place. The princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, which had a Hindu ruler but a predominately Muslim population, was divided between Pakistan and India. The people of the state of Kashmir were denied any say in whether they would join Pakistan or India. They wanted what those in so many areas of the world still want today: to determine their future themselves, in a vote of all Kashmiri people. The United Nations passed resolutions to that effect in 1948, but to this day the situation continues. Kashmir remains divided by the line of control, with thousands of troops ranged against each other on both sides of that line.

From time to time over the past 64 years the conflict has flared up and hit the world’s headlines. There have been several attempts to negotiate a peaceful settlement, but for the majority of the time the conflict has simmered away beyond the public’s gaze and attention. Sadly for the people of Kashmir, the killings and torture continue. The latest figures supplied by the Jammu Kashmir Self-Determination Movement show that there have been more than 93,000 killings since January 1989, resulting in some 22,000 women left widowed and 107,000 children orphaned. I commend the work of the Jammu Kashmir Self-Determination Movement, under its chairman Raja Najabat Hussain, for ensuring that the problems of that troubled territory are not allowed to be completely forgotten.

As we have heard this afternoon, many of the current human rights abuses are taking place under the provisions of the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act of 1978. Sam Zarifi, Amnesty International’s Asia-Pacific director, has said of that Act:

“The Jammu and Kashmir authorities are using PSA detentions as a revolving door to keep people they can’t or won’t convict through proper legal channels locked up and out of the way. Hundreds of people are being held each year on spurious grounds, with many exposed to higher risk of torture and other forms of ill-treatment.”

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has also expressed concerns about human rights abuses on both sides of the line of control in its human rights report, issued in May this year.

The people of Jammu and Kashmir are long suffering and patient. It seems that there is always another problem in the world that takes precedence over theirs. All they want is to be given the right to determine their future by themselves. Everyone appreciates the huge challenges facing the Foreign Office, particularly in the middle east and Afghanistan. However, I know that my hon. Friend the Minister will use every opportunity to advance the cause of peace in the troubled region of Jammu and Kashmir. We are fortunate to have a Minister who understands the issue, has tremendous knowledge of it and has a general personal interest in the plight of the Kashmiri people. I know that he will do all he can to ensure that one of the longest-running conflicts in the world is resolved.

European Union (UK Permanent Representative)

David Nuttall Excerpts

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair)]

The hon. Gentlemen may speak if they have had the permission of the hon. Member for Clacton (Mr Carswell).

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

I am conscious of your comment, Mr Leigh, and will leave the Minister time to make a full contribution. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Mr Carswell) on securing this debate. It is absolutely right that the United Kingdom permanent representative to the European Union should be subject to a confirmation hearing before either the Foreign Affairs Committee, as was suggested, or some other appropriate Committee of the House. There are many arguments for holding such a hearing and for having a confirmation process, but no convincing arguments against the idea. I pray in aid none other than the Prime Minister.

My hon. Friend the Member for Clacton mentioned that the Prime Minister supported such an idea when Leader of the Opposition, in an article for The Guardian, published on 25 May 2009:

“I believe the central objective of the new politics we need should be a massive, sweeping, radical redistribution of power: from the state to citizens; from the government to parliament; from Whitehall to communities; from the EU to Britain; from judges to the people; from bureaucracy to democracy. Through decentralisation, transparency and accountability we must take power from the elite and hand it to the man and woman in the street.”

Politicians and the senior civil servants and advisers who work for them instinctively hoard power, because they think that that is the way to get things done. We have to kill that instinct, and I know how hard that will be, requiring a serious culture change among Ministers and Whitehall officials, and beyond.

The then Leader of the Opposition went further in his speech on fixing broken politics two years ago, in which he specifically addressed the issue raised today:

“We should also limit the use of the Royal Prerogative, so Parliament is properly involved in all big national decisions—and expand the use of confirmation hearings for major public appointments.”

We have heard that the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs is to hold a confirmation hearing for the boss of the Welsh TV channel. If that post in Wales warrants a confirmation hearing, the post of the UK permanent representative to the EU does as well. We have the perfect opportunity to put the Prime Minister’s idea into action. I look forward to hearing the Minister agree with what the Prime Minister said two years ago.

European Union (Amendment) Act 2008

David Nuttall Excerpts

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

As I hope to demonstrate to my hon. Friend’s satisfaction later in my speech, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister secured an extremely good bargain for this country when he took part in the negotiations that produced this amendment. First, however, I wish to deal with the points raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) and for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin).

This kind of motion has not been debated in this place before and should the European Union Bill, which this House agreed without Division on Third Reading last week, become law, we will not have this particular procedure here in the future. I want to give a firm assurance to the House that, in particular because of the provisions in that Bill, this evening is only the first opportunity for the House to have its say on the proposed treaty change; a second opportunity will be provided through the process of ratification.

I have to say to the House that the previous Government left this country with a system of both popular and parliamentary control over treaty change that was grossly inadequate. Under the inherited arrangements, this motion would have been all that was required by way of parliamentary approval, at least in terms of an affirmative resolution. If the European Union Bill were not to become law, a motion of this type leading to the adoption of a proposal for treaty change would, on ratification, still have to come back to Parliament and be laid before both Houses, but it would then be for Parliament to pray against the provision which had been laid before the House. Obviously the usual problems are involved in terms of what amounts to a negative resolution procedure in giving effect to an understandable desire for full and effective parliamentary scrutiny. However, as I have said, the Government, through the new legislation that we are taking through Parliament at the moment, want to provide a much stronger assurance for the future that this particular proposal and any others that might conceivably come forward will be given much greater and more rigorous parliamentary scrutiny.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Let us be clear about what will change if that Bill becomes an Act, as I am sure it will in due course. Is it the case that the sort of debate we are able to have tonight will not be possible in future because we will have post-decision debates, in that decisions will have already been taken before that Act, as it will be then, kicks in?

[Mr Lidington]

I hope that I can give my hon. Friend the reassurance he seeks. First, I will make a bit of progress and describe how the provisions in the European Union Bill will bite on this measure and any future measures that are modelled on it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

That is no secret. It is a matter of public record that we would have preferred a complete freeze on the 2011 budget, and we voted for that in the Council of Ministers. I regret that we were one country short of achieving the blocking minority. [Interruption.] That kind of protest from the shadow Minister is rank double standards. The Labour Government not only conceded increases in the annual budget that went way ahead of anything like 2.91% but, even more significantly, negotiated an agreement on the current multi-annual financial framework in which they agreed to give up a significant slice of this country’s hard-won rebate from the EU budget in return for no more than a half-promise of a review of agricultural policy, and they did not even manage to get that at the end of the day. We know that they were dysfunctional. According to the memoirs of the then Prime Minister’s chief of staff, the Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer could so little stand the sight of one another that they refused even to share the figures that they were using in parallel negotiations about an EU budget, the settlement of which was absolutely central to the interests of the United Kingdom. Having let down this country so badly in the past, it ill behoves the Labour spokesman to come and lecture us this evening.

Should this House not approve the motion unamended, I have to say to my hon. Friends that the consequences could be serious and damaging for Britain. The Prime Minster would not be able to signal support for the draft decision in March, and since the decision cannot be adopted without unanimity, it would fall. That would mean, for example, that this country would remain, for the indefinite future, indirectly liable for eurozone bail-outs through the EFSM since there would be no ESM to replace it.

[Mr Nuttall]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Lidington]

I will give way for a last time before completing my remarks so that other hon. Members can make their speeches.

[Mr Nuttall]

Have we not missed an opportunity to include a specific provision to exclude the EFSM under article 122 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union to prevent it from being misused, as it was previously? The article specifies providing financial assistance in the case of “natural disasters” or “exceptional occurrences”. We should have spelt it out—it was our opportunity to do that.

[Mr Lidington]

Article 122(2) was interpreted by the then Governments of all 27 member states as capable of being used as a proper legal basis for the EFSM and we inherited that binding measure.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Nuttall Excerpts

Tuesday 1st February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Bellingham]

I agree with my hon. Friend that this is a totemic issue for all Africa. It is essential that Laurent Gbagbo must not be allowed to defy the will of the people, and it is very important that his funding is cut off, so I am very pleased that the west African central bank—Banque Centrale des Etats de l’Afrique de l’Ouest—has now cut off the Ivorian national reserves and I am confident that this will apply real pressure.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

6. What future plans he has for the UK diplomatic network; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

Our global diplomatic network is essential to protect and promote our interests worldwide. That is why we must concentrate our resources where they are needed most, especially in the emerging powers, to increase our influence, promote our values and seize opportunities for prosperity. I will be taking and announcing decisions soon on what that will mean in practice.

[Mr Nuttall]

I thank the Foreign Secretary for that answer. Last week, in the European Union Bill Committee, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) recalled that when he was the Minister for Europe, in the previous Government, his German counterpart told him that

“he expected to close possibly half of all German embassies and consular services around the world over the next five years.”

The hon. Gentleman added:

“Other member states may well do the same.”—[Official Report, 25 January 2011; Vol. 522, c. 196.]

Will my right hon. Friend please reassure me that we will not be closing any UK embassies and consular services?

[Mr Hague]

The statement about Germany closing half its embassies might be an exaggeration. Far be it from the hon. Member for Rhondda to exaggerate on any issue, but I think that will turn out to be an exaggeration. Certainly, the UK will not be doing that. We will not, overall, be reducing the size of our diplomatic network. I think it would be absolutely wrong to do so, as it is part of the essential infrastructure of our economic recovery as well as of our influence in the world. I will be announcing decisions about this in the next couple of months, but that will not involve an overall reduction in our network.

European Union Bill

David Nuttall Excerpts

Tuesday 25th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

My right hon. Friend makes his point firmly, as I expect him to, but as I said earlier we will have the opportunity to debate justice and home affairs opt-ins in more detail during debates on the clauses that are set down for tomorrow. I look forward to hearing the concerns that he and other Members express on that occasion.

A number of amendments in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry seek to add a limited number of further JHA articles to either clause 6 or schedule 1, and I say to him and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) that I am well aware of and understand the Committee’s concerns about justice and home affairs matters. I share their view that they are matters of political, often of legal and sometimes of constitutional, significance, so I look forward with interest to the arguments that my hon. Friend might put forward later today.

On those amendments, which will be the subject of debate later today, I signal now that I am confident that I can make a compelling case why those particular articles should not be listed in clause 6 but be left, where they are appropriately dealt with, in clause 9. I shall explain briefly today and, I expect, at greater length tomorrow how that fits into wider JHA issues, as I set out in my written ministerial statement last week.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for the courteous and generous way he is piloting the Bill through the House and through its long period in Committee. He will be well aware that I warmly welcome the general principle of the Bill and, indeed, supported it on Second Reading. He will also be aware, however, that I have to be honest and say that it is not the Bill I would have preferred to discuss today. I make no secret of the fact that I think we should be discussing a Bill to give the people of the United Kingdom a referendum on our continued membership of the European Union, but we are where we are.

I supported the Bill on Second Reading on the basis that I would use every opportunity to try to strengthen and improve it as it progressed through its remaining stages, and I am heartened by the announcements that the Minister has already made this afternoon. He has demonstrated that he feels the Bill is capable of improvement by virtue of his bringing forward the Government’s own amendments to it.

My amendment 54 and consequential amendment 55, as with so many amendments tabled for discussion in Committee, seek to strengthen the Bill by improving the scrutiny that would have to take place should any future transfer of competence occur.

Under clause 7(2)(a), a Minister may not confirm the approval by the United Kingdom of

“a decision under the provision of Article 25 of TFEU that permits the adoption of provisions to strengthen or add to the rights listed in Article 20(2) of that Treaty”

unless

“the decision is approved by Act of Parliament.”

Amendment 54 would require such a decision to be approved not only by an Act of Parliament, but by the people of the United Kingdom in a referendum. It proposes a new subsection (2A) to clause 6, rather than including the decision in the list of decisions in clause 6(4), because the procedure for the ratification of decisions under article 25 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union is essentially the same as that for decisions under article 42 of the treaty on the European Union, which relates to a common European Union defence policy.

Under the European Union treaties, all citizens of member states are also citizens of the European Union. As the Committee will be aware, the list in article 20(2) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union is separate from and additional to the list of rights in the European Union’s charter of fundamental rights, which was given the status of treaty law by the Lisbon treaty. I will list briefly the European Union citizenship rights set out in article 20(2). The first is the freedom of movement and residence within the European Union. The second is

“the right to vote and to stand as candidates in elections to the European Parliament”

and in local government elections in the member state of residence

“under the same conditions as nationals of that State”.

The third is the right to

“the protection of the diplomatic and consular authorities of any Member State on the same conditions as the nationals of that State”

when the EU citizen’s member state is not represented in a non-EU country. The fourth is

“the right to petition the European Parliament, to apply to the European Ombudsman, and to address the institutions and advisory bodies of the Union in any of the Treaty languages and to obtain a reply in the same language.”

A decision to strengthen or add to the rights set out in article 20(2) could be of great importance, and could be wide-ranging. Article 25 of the same treaty appears to place no limit on the sort of rights that may be added. For example, there appears to be nothing to prevent the adoption of provisions that give European Union citizens the right to vote in national elections in member states other than the state of which they are a citizen. Such a new basic right would constitute such a major transfer of power that such moves should be approved by all the people of the United Kingdom in a referendum. By definition, new or extended rights for European Union citizens transfer power from the United Kingdom—the power over whether it accords such rights to the citizens of other European Union member states. The UK would be required to respect those rights for all EU citizens as a matter of treaty obligation, and they would ultimately be enforced by the European Court of Justice, whose rulings are binding and are backed by its power to levy unlimited fines on member states. The new or augmented rights would be enshrined in the EU treaties and could be reversed only by a new, full-blown amending treaty. That would be, for all practical purposes, an irreversible transfer of power of constitutional magnitude, as it would deal with our citizens’ rights.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman referred earlier to consular protection, which, as he knows, has been enjoyed by all citizens of each EU member state for some considerable time. If we have no representation in a particular country, British citizens can go to a French, German or Spanish embassy and receive the same consular protection that they would expect from the UK. Does he really think that that should require a referendum?

[Mr Nuttall]

As I understand it, that is already provided for in article 20(2), so there is no need to introduce it again. Amendment 54 would apply only to future extensions of that article.

[Chris Bryant]

But following the creation of the European External Action Service, there is provision for some extension of that right. That is for obvious reasons, namely that many of the smaller countries in the EU have no diplomatic service or representation in quite a lot of countries. Just as we use the services of the Australians in some cases, for instances in Laos, and the French diplomatic services in other cases, surely it would be wrong to put the need to have a referendum in the way of an extension of that provision for British citizens or any other EU citizens.

[Mr Nuttall]

I hear the hon. Gentleman’s point, but the difficulty is that article 20(2) covers much more than just that matter. As I said, it covers the likelihood of citizens of other EU states being allowed to vote in our national elections. There is real concern about that, and there would be a drive and desire for citizens of the UK to have their say if the EU ever sought to allow it.

[Chris Bryant]

When I was Minister for Europe, I probably had more correspondence with British people living in Spain than with those living in any other country in Europe. The best part of 1 million British people now live in Spain, and many of them feel that they need greater protection by the EU—for instance, if their houses are being pulled down because of the changes to housing and coastal laws. They would like to be able to vote in Spanish general elections, so that they can have a voice in Spanish society. Does the hon. Gentleman think it is wrong that they should be allowed that?

[Mr Nuttall]

I believe it should be up to the Spanish to decide who should vote in Spanish elections, not the EU, just as I do not want the EU telling our country whether citizens of another EU country should have the right to vote in our national elections.

I might be reading too much into this, but I wonder whether the reason the current article refers only to European parliamentary elections and local elections is that people in the world of the EU would like national elections done away with. In their world, there would be only regions within the great European Union. Is that why no mention of national elections was made in that article?

[Emma Reynolds]

Is the hon. Gentleman really suggesting that hard-headed, pragmatic pro-Europeans say that we should do away with general elections in member states?

[Mr Nuttall]

I have no idea what each individual thinks—that is up to them. All I am saying is that those who promote the EU project, which states the need for ever-closer union—[Interruption.] Those who promote the EU project would very much like there to be simply EU elections and local, regional elections, effectively bypassing Members of Parliament. The thrust of the legislation means that that is where we are headed, and it is one of many reasons why I tabled amendments 54 and 55, and I commend them to the Committee.

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

My treat, which I can never find the resources or time to put into effect, is to send the comments that hon. Members on both sides of the House make to our fellow European politicians. I should like President Sarkozy, Chancellor Merkel, Prime Minister Tusk or the representatives of any one of the nine Nordic and Baltic states that were hosted by the Prime Minister at Downing street last week, to read that someone stood up in the Chamber of the House of Commons and said that we are about to abolish national elections. They would realise what a wonderful world the House of Commons can become. To paraphrase Karl Marx on history in the famous opening lines of “The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte”, the House of Commons, when it debates the EU, starts as muddle and descends quickly into farce. We are already firmly into those two categories today.

Clause 6 refers—

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

I do. It is unfortunate that the Leader of the House has adopted the approach of insisting that pre-Council debates have to be provided for by the Backbench Business Committee from its allocation. Those debates are about the Government’s mandate, and they should be in Government time. I hope that at some point the Leader of the House will change his position on that. We may well not need a full day’s debate—two and a half hours might be sufficient. Having participated in nearly every one of them since 2001, along with my hon. Friend and neighbour from the south Wales valleys, I can fairly safely predict who will take part in them. I can pretty much guess exactly what they will say, as quite a few of us have single transferrable speeches.

I wish to refer specifically to some of the amendments in this group, and my points will be made against the background of my belief that the whole of clause 6 is nonsense. It will harm the power of the British Government to negotiate on behalf of the British people and advance the British interest. It will make Parliament look like a body that is not genuinely interested in significant economic or trade advances. To Indian, Chinese, Russian, Brazilian and Mexican potential counterparts, we will look like the country that is standing in the way of the means of enhancing trade with their economies. I believe that that is a mistake.

The hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) tabled amendment 54 and referred to it earlier. As he knows, it would ensure that there could be no extension of the rights afforded to members of the EU by virtue of article 25 of the TFEU, which is related to article 20(2). I say to him that in the middle of the general election campaign earlier this year, as Europe Minister, I had to go to a meeting—I cannot remember whether it was in Brussels or Luxembourg—to agree to the paper on the founding of the European External Action Service that Baroness Ashton had brought forward as High Representative. Many member states were keen for the paper to contain specific provision for consular services, because as I said earlier, many of the smaller countries in the EU have no representation in many of the 190 or so countries in the world. They frequently use the consular services of other EU member states, and most of the larger member states, such as France, Germany, Italy, Spain and ourselves, are perfectly happy to extend the hand of friendship in that way. Sometimes it is paid for by the country concerned and sometimes it is not, but there is give and take between different member states, so we are perfectly happy for that arrangement to exist.

[Mr Nuttall]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that such a give-and-take arrangement would be perfectly possible even without the existence of the EU? It would also be possible for countries outside the EU to make such an arrangement.

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, of course. I referred earlier to the fact that we have no representation in Laos. The Australians use our old embassy and residence—I am not sure whether they have bought them now—and provide consular support to Brits who get into trouble in Laos. Indeed, last year I had to visit Vientiane to try to sign a prisoner transfer agreement with Laos. We were eventually successful, and a couple of people have come back to the UK and are now serving their sentences in British jails.

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that we would not have to invent the EU for that, but there are different expectations of consular services in each member state. When we had the ash cloud during the general election campaign, British newspapers were just about the only ones in the world to campaign for the Government to intervene. They wanted the Government to bring British nationals back to the UK, but French newspapers, for example, thought that getting French nationals back was entirely the responsibility of the French people and their airlines, travel agents and insurers. As more people across the EU exercise their right to the freedom of travel within it, citizens’ expectation of their consular rights will change.

I remember talking to my German counterpart. He said that he expected to close possibly half of all German embassies and consular services around the world over the next five years. Other member states may well do the same. There might come a point when there is an enhanced desire for a shared EU consular service around the world, but I was keen in the negotiations with him to ensure that Britain did not sign up to something that had not gone through a full process of consultation in each member state.

I was also keen to say that the main actions of the EAS should be far more concerned with extending our influence with the Brazil, Russia, India and China economies, ensuring that we had a shared attitude to the middle east and Russia, and ensuring that we enhanced our action in the Balkans to protect our security, rather than with matters such as consular services, which could involve significant additional costs. Obviously, if the EU acts to introduce its own consular services, the danger is that a significant amount of the cost will be borne by the UK.

I think the Minister would be happy with the agreement that I eventually signed at that time. He is studiously ignoring me and not listening, but I think he, too, would have been happy to sign up to that agreement, notwithstanding the fact that the Conservatives did not originally want the EAS to come into existence because they were opposed to the Lisbon treaty—[Interruption.] I think the Minister is nodding—certainly with his eyes if not his whole head—but without being contradicted, I will assume that he would have been happy.

Under amendment 54 tabled by the hon. Member for Bury North, that agreement would have required a referendum, but that would have been a mistake. It was perfectly possible to achieve the outcome that the UK wanted—namely, that the EU should not be extended to provide consular services, except in the way that is already laid down in unanimously endorsed treaties—and consequently, amendment 54 would have limited the Government’s power to negotiate.

King Canute was trying to prove to his consiliare that he could not hold back the waters, but the Bill is like the King Canute of myth—the one who actually tried to hold back the waters. However, in seeking to create a bulwark, there is a danger that the Government have so limited Ministers in what they can give away that they will be unable to achieve anything on behalf of the British interest in other matters. In the long term, and indeed quite possibly in the short term, that will lead to significant dangers for us.

In particular, amendment 13 is misguided because it applies to the whole of enhanced co-operation, which would mean that Britain would never be able to sign up to an existing area of enhanced co-operation or initiate a new area of enhanced co-operation. Enhanced co-operation is an entirely voluntary process, so I cannot see how it could possibly be in the British interest to put such a dramatic brake on the power of the British Government to enhance their co-operation in a particular area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Gilbert]

I share the approach that the hon. Gentleman outlines. It is the fishing communities who understand sustainability and the importance of ensuring that we have viable stocks for the future, and they will respond to those needs. It is right that responsibility for fishing policy should be reduced to the region, if not further to local areas.

Amendment 54, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), is a little bizarre, because it promotes the notion that being given extra rights would require a referendum. The rights of EU citizens come under article 20 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union and, as far as I can tell, they number four at the moment. They are the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the member states; the right to vote and stand as candidates in elections to the European Parliament and in municipal elections in the state of residence, under the same conditions as nationals of that state; the right to petition the European Parliament, to apply to the European ombudsman, and to address the institutions and advisory bodies of the European Union; and the right to enjoy, in the territory of a third country in which the member state of which they are nationals is not represented, the protection of diplomatic and consular authorities—a point about which the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) spoke at some length. My contention is that adding to the rights of citizens cannot be seen as a transfer of power or competence from the EU to the UK.

[Mr Nuttall]

Does my hon. Friend agree that, by definition, if citizens of another European Union member state are given rights by the European Union to do things in this country, the rights of our own citizens are diluted and power is therefore transferred to the rest of the European Union?

[Stephen Gilbert]

I simply do not agree. If rights are transferred to the EU level, every European citizen will benefit from those rights, including the many hundreds of thousands of British citizens who live and work in the other European Union member states.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Gilbert]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. The European Human Rights Act gave rights to people in this country that they did not enjoy previously. Those rights are now in statute. Of course, hon. Members can make the argument that the House could have conferred those rights—but then this House is exactly the body that did confer them, first through the 1972 treaty, and secondly under the previous Government through bringing the European human rights treaty into British statute, as I understand it.

[Mr Nuttall]

My hon. Friend is touching on one of the fundamental differences between how the European Union sees rights, and how this sovereign Parliament sees them. Parliament does not think that citizens need to be given any human rights because they are free to do anything under the law, whereas the European Union thinks that it has those rights to hand out to citizens of its European superstate as part of some great, grandiose gesture. That is the difference.

[Stephen Gilbert]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As a loyal subject of the Crown, I am equally pleased to be a citizen of the EU.

I will finish with some brief comments on amendments 8 and 79, which deal with the notion of a referendum lock on giving further financial aid to countries other than Ireland—an issue on which the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) and I have just engaged. If the amendments are passed, they would damage diplomatic relations, delay the EU in helping struggling economies and potentially deny to the UK the same kind of benefits that Ireland has had in the past.

I want to make it clear that the Liberal Democrats support the Bill: it is about reconnecting the British people with the European issue; about saying that over the next five years, there will be no further transfer of powers and competences; about putting that commitment in law; and about raising the benchmark significantly higher than it has been to date.

--- Later in debate ---

Overseas territories other than Gibraltar are not members of the European Union, but all apart from Bermuda and the sovereign base areas have a special relationship or association with the European Union. That association is enshrined in European legislation, most recently in the Council’s 2001 overseas association decision, under which qualifying territories are eligible for European development fund finance. Neither the Crown dependencies nor the overseas territories are looking for closer political integration with the EU, and through official-level engagement with colleagues in the Crown dependencies, we have not received any representations to consider their inclusion in the franchise for any referendum conducted in accordance with this legislation.

[Mr Nuttall]

The explanatory notes on clause 11—perhaps we ought to refer to them as the first edition of the explanatory notes—state:

“A person who is entitled to vote in a parliamentary election in the UK must be a British citizen, Commonwealth citizen, a citizen of the Republic of Ireland or a British citizen who qualifies as an overseas elector.”

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is rather strange that all those classes of people will be entitled to vote under the Bill, but not necessarily, from what he has said, people from British overseas territories?

[Mr Lidington]

Our position is that people who are resident in the United Kingdom and who are enfranchised for general elections will count legally as UK nationals for European purposes. That is the electorate, with the addition of peers, that we envisage for any referendum that is required under the terms of the Bill. The distinction that I tried to make earlier—I apologise to my hon. Friend if I did not explain myself with sufficient clarity—was between Gibraltarians living in Gibraltar, who would be entitled to vote if the subject matter of the referendum affected Gibraltar, and citizens of Crown dependencies or British overseas territories living in those places. An analogy might be made between those people and citizens of Gibraltar, but as I have tried to explain, the relationship of the Crown dependencies and other British overseas territories with the EU is very different from that enjoyed by Gibraltar.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Nuttall]

I can quite easily see how it would be a significant saving to the public purse to have more than one referendum held on the same day, and I have no doubt that our fellow citizens are more than capable of determining two complex questions at the same time and on the same day. Does my hon. Friend agree that, for ease of counting if for nothing else, it would be preferable if the two questions put before the electorate were on separate ballot papers, possibly even of differently coloured paper? That would make it far easier for the returning officers to sort the ballot papers and determine the outcome of the ballot.

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend makes a sensible suggestion, and I am sure that the Government of the day and the Electoral Commission would wish to take it into account in framing the rules for any particular referendum or combination of referendums.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

That is one of the very good reasons for not trying to cover all the ground in this Bill. That kind of detail will be a matter for the application of the 2000 Act or its successor statute, and for the Government of the day to authorise a referendum or combination of referendums. That might depend, for example, on whether one lead campaign organisation could be said fairly to represent the views of the yes or no camp on more than one referendum, or whether separate lead organisations were needed. It is reasonable for my hon. Friend to ask those questions, but answers to them can be provided only when we come to consider a specific case in due course.

[Mr Nuttall]

Does that not lead us to the interesting question of whether there is a practical maximum number of referendums that could be held on the same day? I can understand how we could deal with two, but it gets rather complicated if there are more than two. We could have three different organisations with three separate streams of funding from the Electoral Commission, and soon the whole thing would begin to look rather unwieldy.

[Mr Lidington]

Although one can never guarantee against the utterly implausible happening, the scenario that my hon. Friend describes would require a commitment of political energy on the part of every EU member state, because the decisions subject to a referendum require unanimity among member state Governments. Furthermore, he assumes that the UK Government of the time would be prepared to accept and recommend to the people three different treaty changes, or the implementation of three different passerelle clauses, or some combination of those on a single occasion. That is unlikely in the extreme.

A more plausible scenario—although I do not think, from talking to my colleagues on the Council of Ministers, that people have any appetite for this at the moment—if European countries wanted an ambitious treaty change covering a number of different competences, would be to seek treaty amendment through the ordinary revision procedure. That is the instrument available to the EU for an ambitious, wide-ranging treaty change along the pattern of Lisbon, Nice, Amsterdam and Maastricht. In those circumstances, the total proposal for a treaty amendment—regardless of which city it was named after—would be the subject of a single referendum question. It is most unlikely, therefore, that there would be a multiplicity of narrowly focused referendum questions, given the availability of that instrument.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

If my hon. Friend will allow me, I want to make a bit of progress. In particular, I want to deliver a bit of good news to the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), to whom I am always pleased to give good news. Advice has reached me that confirms the point that I made to him somewhat tentatively when I responded to his intervention. The law does indeed make it clear that when it comes to the interpretation of statutes, the singular can be interpreted to mean the plural. Under the language that we have used in the clause, it will be possible to have either one ballot paper with multiple questions or several different ballot papers, depending on the circumstances at the time. That would obviously be a detailed decision that the Government of the day would have to make, taking, I would very much hope, the advice of the Electoral Commission into account.

It should be noted that neither clause 12 nor any other clause in the Bill sets any other explicit parameters on the framing of the question. However, it is a condition separately in clauses 2, 3 and 6 that, for a proposal in a referendum to be passed, the majority of those voting should be in favour of the ratification of the treaty or approval of the decision, whichever it may be. That condition would logically require that the question be framed as a simple choice between two options, rather than a menu of options to which the responses would be much more difficult to interpret. In other words, it is implicit in the Bill that the question would be a binary one. It is the Government’s clear view that this should be the case for all and any referendums held under the provisions of the Bill.

[Mr Nuttall]

On the binary question, and whether we should have no/yes or yes/no, does the Minister agree that it is rather unusual that whereas individuals standing in an election are listed on the ballot paper in alphabetical order based on their surnames, when it comes to a referendum, for some reason the yes comes before the no? That is rather odd. I think that the no should be first and that the yes should come second.

[Mr Lidington]

I am sure that my hon. Friend means well, but I would urge him to have more confidence in our fellow citizens. In particular, I would point him to the referendum on the proposed assembly for the north-east of England. A yes vote was strongly supported by the then Labour Government, as well as enjoying the support of quite a number of public organisations in the north-east of England, but the proposition was resoundingly rejected by the public when it came to the ballot in that region. It is a good old Tory principle to trust the people, and I think that we should be content with that.

[Mr Nuttall]

I want to make it absolutely clear that I entirely agree with the principle of trusting the people. I have no doubt whatever that the people of this country are more than capable of working out which is which. I just thought it was rather odd that the yes should appear above the no, and I wondered whether there was any reason why that should be so.

[Mr Lidington]

As far as I am aware, there is no particular reason for it. However, the Electoral Commission will have a duty to comment on the question that the Government of the day have chosen, and I am sure that, if the Commission felt that placing yes above no gave an unfair advantage in some way, it would so opine and the Government would take account of that. It is quite difficult to envisage a ballot paper that did not have either yes or no at the top of the paper. At the end of the day, it comes down to a choice by the people: they have two options available to them, and I think that they will know which side they are on when it comes to the vote.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

What happened in Ireland was that the Irish Government went back to their EU partners and received various assurances, which were incorporated into a protocol to the treaties. We can debate whether the Irish Government were right or wrong to be satisfied by those assurances, but I actually think that it is a matter for the Irish people, not for me, to decide. In such slightly far-fetched, hypothetical circumstances, were a British Government to do as the hon. Gentleman suggests, they would have to bring the protocol back here and go through the entire process again, including the assessment of the ministerial declaration and the Act of Parliament. There would then have to be a new referendum. I just think that any Government who tried to do that would be punished so severely by the people every time they got the opportunity to go to the ballot box that it would be the last thing on any Minister’s mind.

[Mr Nuttall]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

Before I give way to my hon. Friend, may I just say that I am very conscious that we have another important clause to consider, if we can, before the 10 o’clock deadline?

[Mr Nuttall]

I, too, am conscious of that. The Minister says that the Irish situation was a rare occurrence, but he will be aware that it also occurred in Denmark and France. It is therefore not all that unusual in the European Union for second referendums to be held on the same or a very similar question.

[Mr Lidington]

I go back to what I said earlier: I trust the people. If a Government wanted to ask people to vote again, they would have to go through the entire procedure again—assuming that a new protocol or slightly revised treaty wording were involved—as well as having to persuade a pretty sceptical electorate that they should change their mind. I think that my hon. Friend is at risk of exaggerating the likelihood of those circumstances arising. While I do not think that the loss of a referendum vote on a European treaty amendment should determine whether a Government should fall, it would undoubtedly be a very severe political blow to that Government.

Once this Bill becomes law, I think the pressure will be the reverse of what my hon. Friend fears, as the pressure will be on any British incumbent Government to be very confident that they can carry support among the electorate for a treaty reform transferring new powers or competences to the European Union before they agree to it at the European Council. The arrangements we are putting in place thus provide safeguards against what my hon. Friend fears.

In any event, the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 requires the Electoral Commission to consider the wording of any referendum question when a Bill to provide for the holding of a poll is introduced in Parliament. In the case of a draft instrument, the Secretary of State is required to consult the Electoral Commission on the wording of the referendum question before any such draft is laid before Parliament for approval, and he or she is then required to lay before each House a report stating any views as to the intelligibility of that question which the Commission has expressed in response to the consultation. We have not sought to disapply that requirement, as we think the Electoral Commission plays an important role in ensuring both the neutrality of the question and that it is correctly and easily understood by voters.

Under PPERA, the Electoral Commission is required to consider the wording of the referendum questions for UK, national and regional referendums and for some local government referendums. Having done so, it is required to publish the statement of its views as soon as practicable and in such a manner as it may determine. Helpfully, the commission has developed guidelines to aid the drafting of intelligible referendum questions. In these, it says that a referendum question should present the options clearly, simply and neutrally so that it is easy to understand, to the point and unambiguous; and should avoid—I hope this helps my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North—encouraging voters to consider one response more favourably than another, and avoid misleading voters. In reaching its conclusions, the Electoral Commission adopts a systematic and thorough approach, which now has the advantage of some considerable experience behind it. It is also important that it publishes a report of methodology to enhance transparency and its credibility.

Clause 12 is thus a proportionate and sustainable provision to ensure that the voice of the British people can be heard on each question asked of the people. That, in turn, will help us with our commitment to rebuild the trust between Government, Parliament and the people, and to reconnect our people with decisions taken in their name on our continuing relationship with the European Union. For those reasons, the clause should stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

The Electoral Commission was rightly established as an independent body. I think it important for the Government not to issue instructions to it, and to be seen not to do so. Given that the commission’s value to our political process is by virtue of its being a completely independent statutory body, I consider it right for us to give it these new powers without laying down rules requiring it to use them in a particular way. It is for the commission to make its own judgments. How it chooses to promote awareness is rightly a matter for it, but we are giving it a statutory duty to promote awareness before any referendum held under the provisions of the Bill.

[Mr Nuttall]

Perhaps I can help the Minister. Clause 13(a) says that the commission

“must take whatever steps they think appropriate to promote public awareness”

of the existence of the referendum, but

“may take whatever steps they think appropriate to promote public awareness of the subject-matter of the referendum.”

I suggest to the Minister that that may mean giving appropriate amounts of money to the yes campaign and to the no campaign.

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend’s helpful intervention will probably have given some reassurance to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David).

We are seeking to encourage greater participation, and providing clarity so that the people know what they would be voting for regardless of which way they choose to vote. We are following the practice adopted for the North East assembly referendum in 2004, and the approach taken in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.

If I may, I refer the hon. Member for Caerphilly to the 2003 enabling Act for the north-east regional assemblies referendum. It included clause 8, supplementary to PPERA, on “encouraging voting”, and that—

European Union Bill

David Nuttall Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke]

Thank you, Mr Gale. You have saved me from having to get myself out of that one.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

My hon. Friend made a point about the explanatory notes. Is not the real problem with clause 18 enunciated in paragraph 109 of those notes? It states:

“This clause does not alter the existing relationship between EU law and UK domestic law; in particular, the principle of the primacy of EU law.”

That is what upsets the British people, and it is for that reason that we ought to put the matter of sovereignty and of our continued membership of the EU to the British people in a referendum.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Personally, I believe that it is wrong to see EU law as having primacy. I underline again that the UK Parliament is sovereign, and has decided to be part of the EU and allow its laws into our national life through the medium of the European Communities Act 1972. Equally, it is abundantly clear that the UK Parliament could change that position. To my mind, clause 18 amounts to a codification of that principle, which is clear from the Factortame case and from the metric martyrs, Thoburn case. In the latter case, as Members will recall and as paragraph 107 of the explanatory notes explains, it was argued that EU law

“includes the entrenchment of its own supremacy as an autonomous legal order”.

That argument was rejected. It is an important principle to understand: there is no autonomous legal entrenchment from the European Union. It is taken into account and part of our law only because we have made it so.

I can do no better than quote Lord Justice Laws, who hit the nail on the head. He said:

“Parliament cannot bind its successors by stipulating against repeal, wholly or partly, of the European Communities Act.”

When I was a law student, studying my books, I always viewed Professor Dicey’s principle as giving voice to the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty. It is quite simple—I always thought of it as: the last Act to hit the statute book takes precedence. If it says anything different from a previous Act, the latter is discarded to that extent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Nuttall]

I am conscious of the fact that this has been a long debate and that there are many points for the Minister to respond to so I shall keep my remarks short. Much of what I would have said has been admirably covered by my colleagues on this side of the Committee.

It is a sad indictment of how much power has drained away from the House that we have to debate a sovereignty clause. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd), who is no longer in his place, said that when he came to the House in 1979, such a debate would have been unthinkable. We must ask why we are in this position now. Obviously, it is because of the European Communities Act 1972, which was the start of the problem. As a result of that Act, the House handed over to Brussels—in those days it was not the European Union but the European Economic Community—the power to take decisions on behalf of the British people on matters of commerce. Over the years, that power has expanded to include many different areas.

I know from my constituents that time and again they are infuriated by the amount of legislation affecting their everyday lives that emanates not from Parliament but from the European Union. I congratulate the coalition Government on trying to do something about this problem, but, sadly, I fear it is too late—like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. The problem is that the powers have already gone and we are just putting a sticking plaster over what is sadly now a gaping hole.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) for attempting to stiffen and improve clause 18 on the House’s sovereignty. We should not have to say that this House is sovereign—as Lord Tebbit said in an article a few weeks ago, it is rather like the drunk in the bar saying he is sober. The House is sovereign and we should not have to keep saying so. The clause seems to do no more than state what we already know to be the position. It does not try to amend the law at all. It was sensible of the European Scrutiny Committee, as soon as it saw the Bill and this clause, to embark on a detailed examination of what they meant, sensibly calling witnesses before it. The House sets up Select Committees, so it makes sense to heed what they say. The Committee and its Chairman have tabled the amendments to the Bill and for that reason, among others, I will support their amendments.

There are doubts about why it is necessary to include clause 18 in the Bill. The amendments seek to clarify the position, and to make it easier for judges to examine the reasons why the clause has been included, should they ever be in the position of determining where sovereignty lies, as they will see that the House wants to ensure that it lies here with the House. We derive our power from the will of the British people, who give us power. I believe that that power should stay with us in the House, and not be passed to Brussels, but those are arguments for another day. Today is about how we make best use of the work that has been done by the European Scrutiny Committee to strengthen clause 18, and for that reason I support the amendments.

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I am grateful to all right hon. and hon. Members who have taken part in today’s debate: my hon. Friends the Members for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) and for Dover (Charlie Elphicke); my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael); and equally the hon. Members for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), for Caerphilly (Mr David), for North Durham (Mr Jones), for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), and for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty).

The debate has moved between passion and intense thoughtfulness, and both those qualities were demonstrated in the opening speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash). Although he and I have our differences this evening, I want to place on the record my respect not just for the contribution that he has made to tonight’s debate but for the commitment that he has shown in his chairmanship of the European Scrutiny Committee. He is a gentleman with whom I may disagree from time to time, but I happily salute him as a patriot and a champion of the rights and privileges of the British Parliament. We differ over which form of words and which draft of amendment will best accomplish the objectives that we seek. As today’s debate covers both the question of approving clause 18 and the amendments and new clauses that have been tabled, I want to structure my comments first by making clear the Government’s purpose in introducing the clause and then going on to address the individual amendments and new clauses.

Clause 18 addresses the concern that the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, as it relates to European Union law, might in future be eroded by decisions of the United Kingdom’s domestic courts. It would provide authority that could be relied on to counter arguments that European law could become an integral and autonomous part of the UK’s legal system independent of statute. It responds to concerns that the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty as it relates to EU law may not be unassailably absolute, and may be qualified. The concern is that the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty is part of common law—a point illustrated by the report by the European Scrutiny Committee and the evidence it took, and clearly a matter that is subject to intense academic debate and contention.

The risk is that British courts might, in future, be attracted to the argument that European law no longer takes effect in this country by virtue of an Act of Parliament but has become entrenched in our legal system, enjoying an autonomous status—in the jargon, it has become a basic “grundnorm” underlying the UK legal system, to be applied by our courts and against which ultimately UK legislation falls to be measured.

There are three main sources for that concern. The first stems, yes, from the arguments run by the counsel for the prosecution in the so-called “metric martyrs” case of Thoburn v. Sunderland City Council. It is worth saying a little about that case because the issues raised were of great significance. The prosecution argued that the European treaties’ effect in domestic law did not depend—merely, at least—on the terms of their incorporation by the European Communities Act 1972 but, to a decisive extent, on the principles of European law itself.

The argument was that European law had been entrenched rather than merely incorporated, by virtue not of any principle of domestic constitutional law but of principles of Community law already established in cases such as Van Gend en Loos v. Nederlandse Administratie der Belastingen and Costa v. Enel, to which hon. Members have referred in this debate.

If that argument had prevailed and if it were to prevail in the future, we would need to think about what the practical effect might be. For example, let me take the prohibition on discrimination on grounds of nationality set out in article 18 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union. Our courts have recognised that the provision has direct effect in the United Kingdom. Under the prosecution’s principle in the “metric martyrs” case, the courts would interpret that prohibition and seek to enforce it as part of UK law, even if Parliament were to remove the statutory mechanism by which it had been given effect in the UK, by either repealing or amending the European Communities Act 1972.

But if we pass clause 18 and enshrine in statute the principle that the authority of European law derives solely from Acts of Parliament, then the courts could not do that because article 18 could have direct effect in the UK only because Parliament had provided a statutory mechanism to allow that. If that statutory mechanism were to be repealed without replacement, there would be no basis on which it could be given direct effect in this country. Although those arguments were rejected by Lord Justice Laws, they could well be made again in future cases.