European Union Bill

David Lidington Excerpts

Tuesday 25th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I beg to move amendment 57, page 4, line 36, at end insert—

‘(2A) A Minister of the Crown may not give a notification, under Article 4 of Protocol (No. 21) on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to TEU and TFEU, which relates to participation by the United Kingdom in a European Public Prosecutor’s Office or an extension of the powers of that Office unless—

(a) the notification has been approved by Act of Parliament, and

(b) the referendum condition is met.’.

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 54, page 4, line 36, at end insert—

‘(2A) A Minister of the Crown may not confirm the approval by the United Kingdom of a decision under the provision of Article 25 of TFEU that permits the adoption of provisions to strengthen or add to the rights listed in Article 20(2) of that Treaty (Rights of citizens of the European Union) unless—

(a) the decision is approved by Act of Parliament, and

(b) the referendum condition is met.’.

Government amendment 58.

Amendment 81, page 4, line 42, at end insert—

‘(aa) a decision under Article 43 of TFEU which would result in the removal of the existing powers of the United Kingdom in relation to nautical limits;’.

Amendment 36, page 5, line 5, at end insert—

‘(ba) a decision under the provision of Article 81(3) of TFEU (family law) that permits the application of the ordinary legislative procedure in place of a special legislative procedure;’.

Amendment 37, page 5, line 5, at end insert—

‘(bb) a decision under the provision of Article 82(2)(d) of TFEU (minimum rules on criminal procedure) that permits the identification of further specific aspects of criminal procedure to which directives adopted under the ordinary legislative procedure may relate;’.

Amendment 38, page 5, line 5, at end insert—

‘(bc) a decision under the provision of Article 83(1) of TFEU that permits the identification of further areas of crime to which directives adopted under the ordinary legislative procedure may relate;’.

Amendment 100, page 5, line 27, after ‘(enhanced co-operation)’, insert ‘except in the field of EU patents’.

Amendment 13, page 5, line 33, at end insert—

‘(ja) a decision which results in the participation of the United Kingdom in any enhanced co-operation procedure.’.

Amendment 8, page 5, line 35, at end insert—

‘(l) a decision to extend the use of the European Financial Stability Mechanism to member states other than the Republic of Ireland.’.

Amendment 79, page 5, line 35, at end insert—

‘(4A) In subsection (1) “decision” includes a further implementation of the decision under Article 122 of TFEU to extend the use of the European Financial Stability Mechanism to any member state other than the Republic of Ireland.’.

Amendment 40, page 14, line 9 [Schedule 1], at end insert— ‘Article 81(3) (family law).’.

Amendment 55, in clause 7, page 5, leave out lines 44 to 46.

[Mr Lidington]

We turn now to decisions on which a referendum would always be required. Decisions taken in accordance with the treaty provisions listed in clause 6 would always require approval by Act of Parliament and a referendum. One group of decisions covered by clause 6 are the one-way, irreversible decisions that would transfer competence from the United Kingdom to the European Union, including a decision that the UK would participate in a European public prosecutor’s office, which can be set up to combat crimes affecting the EU’s financial interests. Should the UK ever take part in the European public prosecutor following such a referendum, the decision that this country should take part in any expansion of the powers of that prosecutor is also listed in clause 6 and would therefore also be subject to primary legislation and a referendum.

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

With regard to Government amendment 57, will the Minister make it clear to the Committee why the Government have singled out the European public prosecutor’s office in their opt-in to justice and home affairs and why they are not including other measures in that area on which they have a decision to opt in? The amendment is slightly untidy, so will he clarify that it will amend clause 6(2), as the European public prosecutor’s office is mentioned in clause 6(4)(c)?

[Mr Lidington]

The wider issue of justice and home affairs opt-ins is the subject of a number of amendments and new clauses that have been selected for debate tomorrow. If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I think that that will be the appropriate time to deal with it. We have decided to single out the European public prosecutor because that was a clear and explicit commitment in the coalition agreement and the coalition programme. The agreement stated:

“Britain will not participate in the establishment of any European Public Prosecutor.”

In accordance with that policy, we are putting a referendum lock on a decision by any future British Government to join the European public prosecutor and a further lock on the UK taking part in any expansion of that prosecutor’s powers.

I am grateful to my hon. Friends the Members for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), for Wycombe (Steve Baker), for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers), for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for Crawley (Henry Smith) for noticing a potential gap in the drafting of the Bill. As drafted, clause 6(4)(c) and (d) might not automatically trigger a referendum in the event that the UK chose to participate in the European public prosecutor after it had already been established. That is because the measure under the United Kingdom’s protocol on the area of freedom, security and justice, which would be used to allow us to take part in the European public prosecutor’s office or in an expansion of the office’s powers in those circumstances, does not have to cite the legal base of article 86 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union.

Government amendments 57 and 58 respond to the concerns identified and expressed by my hon. Friends in their amendment in order to close that potential loophole. We did not intend to leave any doubt about the matter and, being keen to make that correction, I therefore urge the Committee to approve those Government amendments. These would ensure that a referendum would be required in all cases before the United Kingdom could join the European public prosecutor’s office or an extension of its powers, whether the decision was taken before or after the prosecutor had been set up, or before or after the powers had been extended.

[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

I am very grateful for that concession, which improves the Bill. Now that the Minister is in this spirit of concession, does he not understand that most people think that criminal justice is central to their sovereignty in Parliament, and that the same provision should apply to all opt-ins under the criminal justice provisions? Why will he not concede that?

[Mr Lidington]

My right hon. Friend makes his point firmly, as I expect him to, but as I said earlier we will have the opportunity to debate justice and home affairs opt-ins in more detail during debates on the clauses that are set down for tomorrow. I look forward to hearing the concerns that he and other Members express on that occasion.

A number of amendments in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry seek to add a limited number of further JHA articles to either clause 6 or schedule 1, and I say to him and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) that I am well aware of and understand the Committee’s concerns about justice and home affairs matters. I share their view that they are matters of political, often of legal and sometimes of constitutional, significance, so I look forward with interest to the arguments that my hon. Friend might put forward later today.

On those amendments, which will be the subject of debate later today, I signal now that I am confident that I can make a compelling case why those particular articles should not be listed in clause 6 but be left, where they are appropriately dealt with, in clause 9. I shall explain briefly today and, I expect, at greater length tomorrow how that fits into wider JHA issues, as I set out in my written ministerial statement last week.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for the courteous and generous way he is piloting the Bill through the House and through its long period in Committee. He will be well aware that I warmly welcome the general principle of the Bill and, indeed, supported it on Second Reading. He will also be aware, however, that I have to be honest and say that it is not the Bill I would have preferred to discuss today. I make no secret of the fact that I think we should be discussing a Bill to give the people of the United Kingdom a referendum on our continued membership of the European Union, but we are where we are.

I supported the Bill on Second Reading on the basis that I would use every opportunity to try to strengthen and improve it as it progressed through its remaining stages, and I am heartened by the announcements that the Minister has already made this afternoon. He has demonstrated that he feels the Bill is capable of improvement by virtue of his bringing forward the Government’s own amendments to it.

My amendment 54 and consequential amendment 55, as with so many amendments tabled for discussion in Committee, seek to strengthen the Bill by improving the scrutiny that would have to take place should any future transfer of competence occur.

Under clause 7(2)(a), a Minister may not confirm the approval by the United Kingdom of

“a decision under the provision of Article 25 of TFEU that permits the adoption of provisions to strengthen or add to the rights listed in Article 20(2) of that Treaty”

unless

“the decision is approved by Act of Parliament.”

Amendment 54 would require such a decision to be approved not only by an Act of Parliament, but by the people of the United Kingdom in a referendum. It proposes a new subsection (2A) to clause 6, rather than including the decision in the list of decisions in clause 6(4), because the procedure for the ratification of decisions under article 25 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union is essentially the same as that for decisions under article 42 of the treaty on the European Union, which relates to a common European Union defence policy.

Under the European Union treaties, all citizens of member states are also citizens of the European Union. As the Committee will be aware, the list in article 20(2) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union is separate from and additional to the list of rights in the European Union’s charter of fundamental rights, which was given the status of treaty law by the Lisbon treaty. I will list briefly the European Union citizenship rights set out in article 20(2). The first is the freedom of movement and residence within the European Union. The second is

“the right to vote and to stand as candidates in elections to the European Parliament”

and in local government elections in the member state of residence

“under the same conditions as nationals of that State”.

The third is the right to

“the protection of the diplomatic and consular authorities of any Member State on the same conditions as the nationals of that State”

when the EU citizen’s member state is not represented in a non-EU country. The fourth is

“the right to petition the European Parliament, to apply to the European Ombudsman, and to address the institutions and advisory bodies of the Union in any of the Treaty languages and to obtain a reply in the same language.”

A decision to strengthen or add to the rights set out in article 20(2) could be of great importance, and could be wide-ranging. Article 25 of the same treaty appears to place no limit on the sort of rights that may be added. For example, there appears to be nothing to prevent the adoption of provisions that give European Union citizens the right to vote in national elections in member states other than the state of which they are a citizen. Such a new basic right would constitute such a major transfer of power that such moves should be approved by all the people of the United Kingdom in a referendum. By definition, new or extended rights for European Union citizens transfer power from the United Kingdom—the power over whether it accords such rights to the citizens of other European Union member states. The UK would be required to respect those rights for all EU citizens as a matter of treaty obligation, and they would ultimately be enforced by the European Court of Justice, whose rulings are binding and are backed by its power to levy unlimited fines on member states. The new or augmented rights would be enshrined in the EU treaties and could be reversed only by a new, full-blown amending treaty. That would be, for all practical purposes, an irreversible transfer of power of constitutional magnitude, as it would deal with our citizens’ rights.

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[Emma Reynolds]

I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman, who makes the point well. There are elements of agreement regarding last week’s written ministerial statement with which we can work. The Opposition favour any greater parliamentary scrutiny of the opt-in decisions that the Government make in this area. So, yes, there is quite a lot of agreement between us.

The Conservative party has come on a long, tortuous and at times destructive journey regarding the European Union. A Conservative Prime Minister took us into the then European Community and subsequent Conservative Prime Ministers signed up to the Single European Act and the Maastricht treaty—the biggest transfers of power from Westminster to Brussels in our history. There were no referendums on those issues. The Foreign Secretary has been part of that long and tortuous journey. He was not so keen on referendums in the early 1990s, when he and the hon. Member for Stone were on different sides of the argument during the long and heated debate on the Maastricht treaty that went through the night. The Foreign Secretary opposed a referendum on the treaty and the hon. Member for Stone consistently argued for one.

[Mr Lidington]

Does the hon. Lady acknowledge that there is an important distinction to be made here? With the UK’s accession under Edward Heath and with the treaties she has mentioned that were agreed to by Conservative Governments, those policies were made clear in the Conservatives’ manifesto when they sought the people’s confidence at a general election. The difference with the Lisbon treaty is that, for the first time, referendums had been promised but were not given by the party that won office at the general election.

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[Ben Gummer]

I am sorry, but if the hon. Lady does not mind, I am going to wrap up now.

What the Opposition do not understand—and what I think many on the Government Benches do—is the entirely radical nature of this Bill. It will fundamentally change the relationship between the people of this country—our constituents—and the European Union, and in so doing will change the functioning of the European Union. It is without doubt one of the more exciting Bills to be put before the House by the coalition Government, and I support it wholeheartedly.

[Mr Lidington]

Clause 6 lists those decisions that would always require approval by an Act of Parliament and a referendum. Most of the amendments that we have been considering today seek to add new provisions to clause 6. I want to try to do justice to each amendment and to the various topics that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have raised in this debate.

Let me turn first to the issue of citizenship, which is the subject of amendment 54, as well as the consequential amendment 55, both tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall). The amendments would mean that if a decision under article 25 of the TFEU were to add to or strengthen the list of rights for citizens of member states in the European Union contained in article 20(2) of that treaty, there would have to be a referendum before the United Kingdom could agree to it. I understand my hon. Friend’s concerns, and he is right to say that the question of citizenship is important and sensitive. However, where I took issue with him was when he suggested that there was no limit to the ability of the European Union to confer new rights upon European citizens. There are a number of such limits specified in the treaties. Article 20(1) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union states:

“Every person holding the nationality of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to and not replace national citizenship.”

Article 20 also states that “rights”—that is, rights that people possess in their capacity as European Union citizens—shall be

“exercised in accordance with the conditions and limits defined by the Treaties”.

Article 25 is not a new article, but it does concern a sensitive issue, and that is why the Bill proposes to strengthen parliamentary scrutiny of this important ratchet clause and to require that an Act of Parliament be passed before a Minister could notify approval by this country of a Council decision extending the rights attaching to EU citizenship.

That is also the reason—I hope that this will give my hon. Friend some assurance—why the Bill puts a referendum lock on any proposal that the United Kingdom give up its veto over article 25. We have also put a referendum lock on any proposal that the UK should give up other vetoes in the treaty chapter on citizenship of the Union, such as its veto over the arrangements for allowing EU citizens to vote in local elections or the arrangements for allowing people to stand and vote in European parliamentary elections. However, we do not believe that we need a referendum before agreeing to legislation to strengthen or to add to the rights of citizens of member states under article 25, because such legislation can be made only within existing competence. If there were any proposal to change the treaty to extend those areas of competence on which the rights of EU citizens could be based, such a treaty change proposal would be caught automatically by clause 4 and its requirement for a referendum before any extension of or addition to European Union competence.

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[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

rose—

[Mr Lidington]

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, given the time allowed, I must first try to do justice to the points raised in the debate.

What we are pressing for will mean member states taking more responsibility for management decisions, and working together regionally to agree appropriate measures. It will also mean giving member states the tools to apply conservation measures, and holding them to account for implementing these, regardless of which nations fish in their waters. A draft proposal for reform of the CFP is due to be published in May or June this year, but so far there is no indication, in any of the many discussions that have taken place on the subject, that the Commission will propose changes to the powers of member states in relation to nautical limits. I can assure my hon. Friends and the hon. Member for Great Grimsby that the Government would vigorously oppose any such move on the part of the Commission.

However, in respect of amendment 81, I should say to my hon. Friend the Member for Witham that, for better or worse, the European Union has had competence over fisheries matters for more than 30 years, so there is no transfer of competence from the UK to the EU involved here. Changes to the CFP are agreed by qualified majority voting and co-decision with the European Parliament. Amendment 81 could therefore result in a referendum being held on a decision that this country could not subsequently block.

[Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend feel that if amendment 81 were accepted and there were a vote, and if nothing could then be done as a result of such a referendum, it would undermine the confidence of the British people in a fantastic Bill?

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is therefore important that we focus the referendum lock on those decisions that are of real significance to the people we represent. I understand why my hon. Friend the Member for Witham has tabled amendment 81, which has provided us with a good opportunity to debate a subject about which she cares passionately, but it would not achieve the objective that she and other Members who want reform of the CFP are seeking.

Amendments 36, 37 and 38 would add any decision by the United Kingdom to vote in favour of, or otherwise support, measures brought forward under the justice and home affairs ratchet clauses contained in articles 81(3), 82(2)(d) and 83(1) of the TFEU to the list of measures subject to the safeguard requirements contained in clause 6 of the Bill. Amendment 40 would have a similar effect to amendment 36, but seeks to achieve it by adding article 81(3) to the list of treaty provisions in schedule 1. What those amendments seek is a referendum, rather than such provisions being made under the Bill.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), speaking in support of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), broadened the debate into matters of justice and home affairs more generally. I hope that we will get the opportunity to debate those matters tomorrow, but I will respond briefly to the important points that he made. I know that his concerns are shared by many other Members.

On justice and home affairs opt-ins, we are talking about something that, like it or not, is a matter of existing European Union competence. However, where we have a choice, we cannot be compelled to take part in a particular measure. Furthermore—this affects how we deal with our systems for requiring scrutiny and accountability—where there is a three-month time limit, during which the United Kingdom has to decide whether to take part in the final negotiations on the shape of the legislative measure, that will impose a practical limit on what we can do while still keeping open the option on whether to join in.

I would say to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere that the policy of the coalition is to consider on a case-by-case basis whether we should opt in to a measure or not, and to judge each decision on its merits. There will be occasions when it will be in the national interest of the United Kingdom for us to take part. I would use the example of passenger name records to illustrate that. The United Kingdom Government are pressing the Commission and other member states to introduce measures on that, because we, along with the Government of the United States and a number of European partners, believe that such a measure would help all European countries and the international community generally to strengthen our counter-terrorist policies and provide a means of giving greater assurance of safety to our citizens when they travel by air. So we need to look at these measures on a case-by-case basis.

On scrutiny, as I said in my written ministerial statement of last Thursday, we are proposing not to reduce or limit existing scrutiny powers but to add to them. The minimum that the Government would offer is a written ministerial statement on each decision and, for more important measures, an oral statement. When there was an especially strong parliamentary interest, the Government would commit to setting aside their time for a debate in both Houses on a motion supporting the Government’s approach. Such a motion would, of course, be amendable.

I believe that it would generally be right for such debates to be called when it was proposed to opt in to a measure that would have a substantial impact on this country’s civil or criminal law, on our national security or on our immigration policy. I can say to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere that it is certainly our view that, under the policy that I announced last week, the European investigation order would indeed have been referred for a debate of that kind. As he knows, the Commons Scrutiny Committee had not been fully constituted when that decision had to be taken within the three-month time limit. I know that the Government were uneasy about the fact that the non-existence of the Committee meant that we could not go through the appropriate scrutiny procedures.

In sorting out the details of these matters and putting flesh on the policy that I outlined last week, there will be a need for the Government to talk to Parliament, and to the scrutiny Committees in particular, about exactly how we translate this policy into practical action. There will also be a need to deal with matters such as recess periods and periods of Dissolution. On the question of override, there will, I am afraid, occasionally be cases in which an early opt-in decision is required. There has been one such case this year, in which it was in our interests to opt in to the EU-US agreement on the terrorist finance tracking programme, and we had to do that before the completion of scrutiny. We do not ever take those decisions lightly, and we always seek to keep Parliament informed when the risk of an override exists. To that end, we need to establish how these new arrangements will be managed, especially during periods of recess.

I shall now respond in more detail to the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry. In practical terms, although the UK could block any attempt to move article 81(3) to QMV using either treaty revision procedure, we could not block the result being achieved through the use of the specific ratchet clause in article 81(3). We would simply be ejected from the measure under article 3(2) of the area of freedom, security and justice protocol, and the other member states would continue without the UK. So, in the unlikely event of the UK seeking to use either revision procedure to move article 81(3) to QMV, we could veto that and block the treaty change, but all that would happen, assuming that other member states wanted to go ahead, is that the EU would use the ratchet clause to change the legislative procedure without UK participation. On that basis, it does not seem sensible to put a referendum lock on the use of either of the treaty revision procedures to move the article 81(3) legal base to QMV, because it would not have the desired effect of stopping a move to QMV for individual measures of family law.

Article 82(2)(d) enables the Council to add to the list of issues that can be made subject to EU legislation on criminal law procedures, and article 83(1) allows for additions to the list of criminal offences where the EU can set minimum standards. The exercise of those two articles is already foreseen; they are known entities. They add to what can be done within existing areas of EU competence, rather than creating new competences, and we expect them to be used in relatively obscure areas. For example, on the criminal side, there is a possibility that a proposal will be introduced to use the ratchet to add the crime of female genital mutilation to the list of serious crimes, where the EU can set minimum standards under article 83(1) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union. We will have the choice whether to opt in or not, in line with Government policy. If we wished to opt in, each House would have to agree that it could do so within the three-month period and, before the UK could finally sign up to such a proposal, there would have to be an Act of Parliament. Should we decide not to opt into the negotiations but later decide to opt into the final decision, there would then need to be an Act of Parliament before we could do so. We believe that that is the correct level of control for such decisions, and a considerable increase on the present amount of control provided for under the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008, under which the Lisbon treaty was approved.

I turn now to enhanced co-operation. I might want to write to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere at greater length on this, given the limited time available to me now. I can tell him, however, that we have provided that, if the UK is participating in an area of enhanced co-operation that touches on one or more of the treaty provisions listed in schedule 1 and there is a proposal to use the ratchet to allow a move from unanimity to QMV, an Act of Parliament would need to be passed and the proposed move supported in a referendum before the UK could agree to that proposal.

My hon. Friend’s amendment 13 would mean that, if the UK wanted to join in legislation agreed under an enhanced co-operation arrangement after that legislation had already been agreed by others, a referendum would be required if the smaller group had already decided to move to QMV on an article listed in schedule 1. The reason for the different approach that we are proposing in those circumstances is that the UK would be deciding whether to participate in enhanced co-operation on a specific piece of legislation, rather than on a whole area of policy, and we would be taking that decision in the full knowledge of what had already been agreed. We would be deciding freely whether to take part—we could not be forced to take part—and we would take that decision in the knowledge that any future negotiation to amend that legislation would also have to be done on the basis of QMV.

That is different from taking a decision to move to QMV in the middle of a negotiation on a piece of legislation being agreed under enhanced co-operation to which we were already committed to taking part. That could lead to us being outvoted on the final piece of legislation, having gone into the process under different circumstances altogether. Any such decision, I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere, would be subject to parliamentary scrutiny in the customary way. I am certainly prepared, in the context of the broader reform of scrutiny that I announced last week, to look at the particular point that he raised.

The official Opposition’s amendment 100 is simply unnecessary. The policy on the patent is already subject to qualified majority voting, apart from two areas that are subject to unanimity. We propose that those should require an Act of Parliament, not a referendum.

To my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), I say that we are not happy with the position on the European financial stability mechanism; it is one that we inherited from the previous Government. Our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister fought hard—and successfully—at the European Council to make sure that article 122 was extinguished for the future as a source of bail-outs for other countries. I ask my hon. Friend to recognise, in turn, that the stability of the eurozone, and the eurozone’s success in solving its serious problems, are in our interests, too.

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[Mr Lidington]

It would be helpful if, by way of introduction, I gave a brief explanation of our approach to how the referendum provisions in the Bill would work—the referendum mechanics, in other words. I stress that provision for the conduct of UK referendums on all issues, including those in the Bill, is set out in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. That statute covers the overall regulatory framework applying to referendums and sets conditions in relation to the referendum period, the date of the poll, the wording of questions, the role of the Electoral Commission in commenting on the intelligibility of those questions to ensure that questions are “clear, simple and neutral”, and the conditions to be set in relation to the registration of campaign organisations and for financial and other assistance to be given to designated individuals or organisations. For this purpose, the Act allows the Electoral Commission to designate one individual or organisation for each possible outcome of a particular referendum, which could include political parties, and to award them a public grant of up to £600,000 and other benefits.

In addition, the provisions of the PPERA impose financial controls on the expenditure and income of campaigning individuals or organisations that are not political parties. They place controls on referendum publications by Government and others, and make provision for enabling secondary legislation to be made for the conduct of referendum polls. Those provisions in the PPERA would apply to any referendum conducted under the terms of the Bill and, as the Committee knows, the referendum proposed in the Bill on the parliamentary voting system. Similarly, any amendment to, or replacement of, the PPERA in the future would correspondingly apply to any referendums held under the Bill.

The PPERA, however, does not cover matters that are inherently specific to a particular referendum. Those include the precise wording of the question, the date of the referendum, its franchise, or the precise length of what is termed the referendum period, which is that period during which campaign expenditure is regulated. The Act does not cover how challenges to the referendum result are to be handled, the payment of counting officers, or the conduct of the referendum—for example, decisions on locations, opening hours of polling stations, permitted size of posters and any electoral offences related to the holding of a referendum.

When considering how many of these specific issues to address in the Bill and how many to leave for a specific Bill at the time of a particular referendum, the Government took account of our commitment in the coalition agreement that there would be no further transfer of competence or power from the United Kingdom to the EU over the course of this Parliament. Logically, therefore, there will be no referendums about the transfer of competence or power until 2015 at the earliest, as there would be no such transfers on which the British people should be asked to opine. But as I made clear in earlier debates on the Bill, any proposed treaty change even during this Parliament would none the less be subject to the rigours of this legislation—a statement would have to be laid before Parliament setting out the Government’s analysis on competence and whether any transfers of power would result, and that treaty change would still require Parliament’s clear approval through primary legislation.

[Mr David]

May I take the Minister back to what he was saying about the Electoral Commission and possible financial support to those putting forward a case for or against an issue under consideration? A referendum is due to take place in Wales on 3 March and, because there is no recognised body advocating a no vote, no finances are being given in that direction, but that means that no finances have been given to those who support a yes vote. Could a similar thing happen to any referendums that the Minister is outlining?

[Mr Lidington]

We would certainly want to avoid that and would look at the experience that the hon. Gentleman describes. It is important to recall that the principle of grants being made available for lead campaign organisations was recommended by the independent Committee on Standards in Public Life and approved by Parliament in legislation passed under the previous Labour Government in 2000. I hope that he agrees that it would not be in the public interest for one side in a referendum campaign to be able to outspend the other hugely. A grant ensures that both lead campaign organisations can campaign effectively and that helps the public make an informed choice.

I emphasise that the Bill is not intended to serve as a vehicle for providing for all the detailed referendum rules required to supplement the provisions already contained in the PPERA. That is because we cannot anticipate exactly what referendums might be required in the future, when they would be held or, indeed, what the relevant electoral and referendum law would look like at that time. I do not want to write on tablets of stone arrangements that could prove to be at odds with a subsequent change in general electoral legislation. Therefore, we cannot provide everything on the convening of those specific referendums in the Bill. Rather, it sets out the circumstances in which those referendums would have to be held.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

On the issue of who can vote in referendums, I notice that specific mention is made of the right of the people of Gibraltar to have a say in a referendum. It seems to me that they would like to be part of the United Kingdom for many purposes when it comes to European matters. Would it not be right to allow them more of a chance to have a say?

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Of course, we must look at the question of whether the franchise for a particular referendum should include the people of Gibraltar in the context of whether it would affect Gibraltar. As he will appreciate, although Gibraltar is in most respects treated as part of the EU, some parts of the treaties do not apply to it. It is therefore right that the Bill specifies that the electorate in a referendum should include the people of Gibraltar when the subject matter of that referendum also applies to them. To provide further reassurance, I call tell him that I have consulted the Chief Minister of Gibraltar formally and discussed the matter with him face to face, and he has assured me that he is content with the arrangements for Gibraltar as set out in the Bill.

[Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)]

This is not the time to talk about changes to the Representation of the People Act 2000, although it is probably the place, but the Minister will be aware of the great concern here and in the country about extending the right to vote to prisoners. My understanding from the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights is that that applies only to general and European Parliament elections, so is it not possible to include in the Bill a specific disfranchisement of prisoners, who otherwise would have an opportunity to vote on constitutional matters?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

As my hon. Friend knows, the Government are considering how to comply with the Court’s decision. Article 3 of the first protocol of the European convention on human rights sets out the right to vote in elections. Importantly, that right extends to elections to legislatures, within the meaning of article 3, so we are not under an obligation to enfranchise prisoners for local elections or referendums, and the policy is that we will not do so. The Government accept the need, as did our predecessor, to change the law to give some prisoners the vote in the light of the Court’s judgment. The right to vote will be restricted to UK Westminster parliamentary and European Parliament elections only.

[Charlie Elphicke]

The European Court of Human Rights ruled on prisoner voting in, I believe, Hirst v. the United Kingdom. Despite what my right hon. Friend says, and given that case, how can we be confident that an element of judicial activism will not enable prisoners to vote on a referendum question?

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend is perfectly right to be alert to any sign of judicial activism, but I assure him that one thing that will be very much on the mind of our right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Justice is to devise a policy that takes us forward in compliance with the judgment while keeping to the minimum the risks that my hon. Friend fears.

We recognise the need to ensure that Parliament and the British people have a degree of clarity now about any referendums that will take place under this Bill in future. We want to provide as much clarity as we can from the outset in order to reduce any scope for wriggle-room, and we therefore propose specific measures in this Bill to ensure that any referendums held under it are to some extent standardised. Clauses 11 to 13 include three mechanical provisions for every referendum to be held in future.

Clause 11 concerns the franchise for any future referendum held under the terms of the Bill. The most appropriate franchise for future referendums on questions of transfers of competence or powers from this country to the EU is one based on that for elections to this House, rather than on that for either local government elections or European parliamentary elections, for example. If we were to adopt an alternative franchise, we would allow for voting by citizens of other European Union countries resident in the UK, and that would sit rather oddly with the principle of having the British people decide on whether they wish to pursue further transfers of power from their country to Brussels.

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

Will the franchise for voting in a referendum under this legislation be extended to peers, whether or not they are Members of the House of Lords?

[Mr Lidington]

I do not know whether this delights my hon. Friend, but peers would be able to vote in a referendum; it might well delight Members of the other place. The purpose of the referendum would be to obtain views about the transfer of competence or power from the UK to the European Union, and the Government do not consider there to be a strong, principled reason for excluding peers from expressing their views as part of such an exercise. We therefore propose the same franchise as that used for the European Economic Community referendum in 1975 and that which will be used for the referendum on the voting system for UK parliamentary elections, namely the parliamentary franchise plus peers.

[Charlie Elphicke]

One concern that I have about using the referendum mechanism is that it does not contain thresholds. Recently we had before this House a Bill, which has become jammed in another place, where thresholds were discussed. Does the Minister not think that, in the case under discussion, thresholds might surely be worth considering?

[The Temporary Chair (Mr Brady)]

Order. That is outside the scope of the clause, which is about people who are entitled to vote.

[Mr Lidington]

I shall bear your guidance very firmly in mind, Mr Brady, and simply say that the Government do not propose to specify in this legislation any further thresholds on the turnout.

In response to my hon. Friend, I mentioned the Government’s reasons why the franchise should be extended, where relevant, to Gibraltar, but it is worth me explaining, because there has been some concern in the House, why people from the Crown dependencies and British overseas territories will not be included in the franchise. Very little EU law applies to the Crown dependencies, mainly because of the provisions of our Act of accession to the then EEC in 1972, and also because of the current provisions of the European Union treaties. By virtue of article 355(5)(c) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, the European Union treaties apply to the Crown dependencies, but only to the extent described in protocol 3, which provides that EU rules on customs matters and quantitative restrictions apply to the Crown dependencies

“under the same conditions as they apply to the United Kingdom”,

that the Crown dependencies are inside the EU customs territory and that certain aspects of the common agricultural policy are applicable to allow the free movement of agricultural products.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Nuttall]

The explanatory notes on clause 11—perhaps we ought to refer to them as the first edition of the explanatory notes—state:

“A person who is entitled to vote in a parliamentary election in the UK must be a British citizen, Commonwealth citizen, a citizen of the Republic of Ireland or a British citizen who qualifies as an overseas elector.”

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is rather strange that all those classes of people will be entitled to vote under the Bill, but not necessarily, from what he has said, people from British overseas territories?

[Mr Lidington]

Our position is that people who are resident in the United Kingdom and who are enfranchised for general elections will count legally as UK nationals for European purposes. That is the electorate, with the addition of peers, that we envisage for any referendum that is required under the terms of the Bill. The distinction that I tried to make earlier—I apologise to my hon. Friend if I did not explain myself with sufficient clarity—was between Gibraltarians living in Gibraltar, who would be entitled to vote if the subject matter of the referendum affected Gibraltar, and citizens of Crown dependencies or British overseas territories living in those places. An analogy might be made between those people and citizens of Gibraltar, but as I have tried to explain, the relationship of the Crown dependencies and other British overseas territories with the EU is very different from that enjoyed by Gibraltar.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I hate to press the cause of the people of Gibraltar, but I understand that for the purposes of elections to the European Parliament, the people of Gibraltar are able to vote for Members of the European Parliament for the south-west region. Given that they can vote in elections for that Parliament for all purposes in the European arena, surely they should be able to vote on referendum questions for all purposes.

[Mr Lidington]

No, I think that we have drawn a fair distinction by saying that it is right to confine the electorate for a referendum that does not affect Gibraltar to people in the UK who are entitled to vote in UK elections, and to say that Gibraltar should be allowed to vote when the issue in question affects it. I repeat to my hon. Friend that the Chief Minister of Gibraltar has assured me that he is perfectly content with what we are proposing.

The franchise proposed in clause 11 is also referred to elsewhere in the Bill, namely in clauses 2 and 3. I believe that what we propose is proportionate and justified to ensure that citizens in both the UK and Gibraltar who would be affected by a treaty change, or by a decision that would transfer power or competence from this country to the EU, could express their view in a referendum.

[Emma Reynolds]

I have just two questions of clarification for the Minister and to ask him whether he can confirm that the Government will not repeat the recent mistakes on the alternative vote referendum. First, will they commit to consulting the devolved Administrations regarding the timing of any referendum triggered by the Bill? Secondly, will he make a commitment today that any such referendum would not take place on the same day as the devolved Assemblies elections?

[Mr Lidington]

We will not give a commitment about specific dates for referendums that are not going to be held before 2015 at the earliest. There are advantages and disadvantages to holding referendums on the same days as other elections, and it is certainly considerably less expensive to the taxpayer if a referendum can be combined with a ballot for other purposes.

[Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con)]

In the United States, where much more use is made of local referendums in states such as California, do not such votes almost always take place on the same day as gubernatorial, mayoral or House of Representatives elections? What America understands, which we somehow fail to understand, is that people are perfectly capable of distinguishing between different questions and quite like being asked to go to the polls only once.

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I suspect that a number of Members of all parties can recall occasions when both a general election and a local government election of some kind have been held on the same day in the same place. We have found that our electors have been perfectly capable of deciding to split the ticket if that is what they wish to do.

[Mr Dodds]

As far as Northern Ireland is concerned—I cannot speak for Scotland or Wales—the objection has always been to the idea of a general election for Westminster and for the Northern Ireland Assembly on the same date. There has not really been the same objection to holding a referendum or a local government election on the same date as the Northern Ireland Assembly election. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) about people not having to go out to vote over and over again, and we have certainly had plenty of experience of that in Northern Ireland over the years.

[Mr Lidington]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his comments.

The other point that a future Government would have to bear in mind in determining a referendum date would be whether there was any particular urgency to a treaty or passerelle proposal that required a referendum. In normal circumstances the various national ratification procedures take quite a bit of time, and if there were a proposal under the ordinary revision proposal, it is probable that more than one member state would have to have a referendum. There would therefore be quite a long period between agreement at European Council level and ratification by all 27 member states, or more by then, I hope. However, it is conceivable that there may be a particular need for urgency, and the Government of the day would have to bear that in mind.

The other point that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) made was about the relationship with the devolved Administrations. The Government take that seriously, and we have regular formal meetings with them about Europe through the joint ministerial committee on Europe. I am also in contact with Ministers in each of the devolved Administrations. I can assure her and the Committee that they never hesitate to bring their concerns to me. We would certainly want to continue that process of consultation, bearing their interests in mind.

[Mr David]

I welcome the Minister’s partial reassurance, but may I press him on it? The important thing is for this Government proactively to lead consultation with the devolved Administrations. He should not simply wait for them to make representations to him.

[Mr Lidington]

We try to do both. We in the Government can pride ourselves on enjoying a rather better relationship with the devolved Administrations than the previous Government were usually able to manage.

[Mr Dodds]

It is key not only that Ministers from the devolved regions make representations and that the Minister proactively instigates consultation, but that when representations are made, they are listened to and taken seriously, and that the respect agenda is followed.

[Mr Lidington]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly fair point. He will know that the Prime Minister personally takes the respect agenda very seriously and that he is determined that his Government pursue it. I hope that the Committee agrees to clause 11.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 11 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 12

Separate questions

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Lidington]

Clause 12 provides that separate questions should be set out on a referendum ballot paper in specified circumstances. You will not need reminding, Mr Hoyle, that it is this Government’s clear commitment not to agree to any treaty change or decision to transfer power or competence during this Parliament, but if and when the time comes to hold a referendum under the Bill, nothing in the legislation prevents more than one referendum from being held on separate but coincident treaties or decisions on the same day, or the combination of a referendum with another poll.

As the Committee is aware, a combined poll is the Government’s intention when it comes to the referendum on the parliamentary voting system. As I explained in relation to a previous clause, the rules that govern whether such a combination could take place for referendums under the Bill are provided for in the overarching legislation—the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000—and we recognise that the Electoral Commission would have an opinion on what combinations would be feasible.

There are considerable savings to be made in terms of money, disruption and people’s time if polls are combined, but in addition, as my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) pointed out, the electorate often wish to combine different voting opportunities on a single day. People do not really relish the task of having to traipse to the polling station more frequently than they regard as necessary.

The Electoral Commission has previously said that it would consider on a case-by-case basis proposals to combine different ballots on the same day. The Government believe that that is a sensible approach. We therefore do not seek to make any specific provision in the Bill, particularly as we do not know at this stage when any future referendums will be proposed.

Clause 12 would ensure—should more than one referendum be proposed for the same day—that it is not possible to set a single combined question on all of the issues to be decided upon that day. People have a right to the utmost clarity and choice, and the clause sets a standard that we intend will provide that.

To give an example, if a future Government ever took the step of proposing that the United Kingdom should join the single currency, and separately took the decision to give up our border controls, and if those two referendums were to be held on the same day for reasons of efficiency, the question on joining the euro would be separate from the question on giving up our border controls. There would be two separate questions on the ballot paper and two separate results, because obviously, some people might wish to support one proposition but to oppose the other.

[Mr Nuttall]

I can quite easily see how it would be a significant saving to the public purse to have more than one referendum held on the same day, and I have no doubt that our fellow citizens are more than capable of determining two complex questions at the same time and on the same day. Does my hon. Friend agree that, for ease of counting if for nothing else, it would be preferable if the two questions put before the electorate were on separate ballot papers, possibly even of differently coloured paper? That would make it far easier for the returning officers to sort the ballot papers and determine the outcome of the ballot.

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend makes a sensible suggestion, and I am sure that the Government of the day and the Electoral Commission would wish to take it into account in framing the rules for any particular referendum or combination of referendums.

[Mr Dodds]

I agree with the point made by the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), and the Minister has said that it will be taken into account, but the clause states that

“a separate question must be included on the ballot paper”—

singular. If this clause is passed in its current form, we will not have the flexibility or freedom to have a separate arrangement. Having separate ballots is a good idea, given the experience in Scotland at the last Assembly and parliamentary elections, when the fact that there were different elections on the same ballot paper was the problem.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

There is a principle in the interpretation of the law that the singular can include the plural. If the wording proved to be an obstacle to what the Government of the day and the Electoral Commission considered to be the best way to operate a referendum, it would certainly be open for a change to be made in the Bill authorising the referendum. I am prepared to have a look at that question between now and Report. I am reasonably confident that we would not run into the problems that the right hon. Gentleman described, but I am prepared to seek detailed advice and come back to it on Report.

[Christopher Pincher]

I suspect that the number of occasions on which multiple referendum questions are on the ballot paper will be quite rare, but on those occasions will the Government agree to spend more money to publicise the referendum and allow campaigning organisations more money to spend campaigning for or against the questions? The more questions on the ballot paper, the more complex the issues are and the more money needs to be spent to explain them.

[Mr Lidington]

That is one of the very good reasons for not trying to cover all the ground in this Bill. That kind of detail will be a matter for the application of the 2000 Act or its successor statute, and for the Government of the day to authorise a referendum or combination of referendums. That might depend, for example, on whether one lead campaign organisation could be said fairly to represent the views of the yes or no camp on more than one referendum, or whether separate lead organisations were needed. It is reasonable for my hon. Friend to ask those questions, but answers to them can be provided only when we come to consider a specific case in due course.

[Mr Nuttall]

Does that not lead us to the interesting question of whether there is a practical maximum number of referendums that could be held on the same day? I can understand how we could deal with two, but it gets rather complicated if there are more than two. We could have three different organisations with three separate streams of funding from the Electoral Commission, and soon the whole thing would begin to look rather unwieldy.

[Mr Lidington]

Although one can never guarantee against the utterly implausible happening, the scenario that my hon. Friend describes would require a commitment of political energy on the part of every EU member state, because the decisions subject to a referendum require unanimity among member state Governments. Furthermore, he assumes that the UK Government of the time would be prepared to accept and recommend to the people three different treaty changes, or the implementation of three different passerelle clauses, or some combination of those on a single occasion. That is unlikely in the extreme.

A more plausible scenario—although I do not think, from talking to my colleagues on the Council of Ministers, that people have any appetite for this at the moment—if European countries wanted an ambitious treaty change covering a number of different competences, would be to seek treaty amendment through the ordinary revision procedure. That is the instrument available to the EU for an ambitious, wide-ranging treaty change along the pattern of Lisbon, Nice, Amsterdam and Maastricht. In those circumstances, the total proposal for a treaty amendment—regardless of which city it was named after—would be the subject of a single referendum question. It is most unlikely, therefore, that there would be a multiplicity of narrowly focused referendum questions, given the availability of that instrument.

[Nick Boles]

On a related point, it is dangerous ever to underestimate the deviousness of those who wish to build the grand European project—of course, they are entirely honourable in this, because they believe that their aims are honourable. However, would it not be conceivable that a Government—a future Labour Government, probably—who wanted, for example to set up a set of common European defence forces to replace our national defence forces, might agree a treaty in which they also agreed to repeal the common fisheries policy, which Conservative Members would strongly support? Would we then have a single vote on a single treaty that combined some elements that this country would strongly support and other elements that it would find very difficult? Or would the Government still be able to separate the different elements of the treaty and ask separate questions?

[Mr Lidington]

No, in the circumstances that my hon. Friend describes, in which an omnibus treaty amendment is delivered under the ordinary revision procedure, there would be a single question. It would be ridiculous for the Government to present that to the people as a number of different questions, because the Government, on behalf of the United Kingdom, would have to ratify the entire package en bloc, or refuse to ratify it en bloc. The negotiation would have resulted in a compromise among member states on something to which they all felt able to give their assent, and they would all have to be accountable to their respective electorates for that overall decision.

[Charlie Elphicke]

On this matter of referendums being held on the same day, will the Minister explain the revenue implications of separate referendums on separate days?

[Mr Lidington]

As I said in response to an earlier intervention, if different decisions about treaty amendments were being taken at roughly the same time—I imagine that they would be either passerelle clause decisions or simplified revision procedure decisions—it might well be sensible to combine the referendums on those measures on the same day. The public would get pretty impatient with Parliament if we suggested that should they pop down to the polling station every other Thursday to put their cross in the box for yet another referendum proposal. They would quite rightly be asking why we were requiring their local authorities, as the electoral registration authorities—and ultimately them as taxpayers—to go to such expense and bother on so many different occasions. I would suggest to my hon. Friend that common sense would prevail, regardless of which party was in office.

[Charlie Elphicke]

rose—

[Mr Lidington]

If my hon. Friend will allow me, I want to make a bit of progress. In particular, I want to deliver a bit of good news to the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), to whom I am always pleased to give good news. Advice has reached me that confirms the point that I made to him somewhat tentatively when I responded to his intervention. The law does indeed make it clear that when it comes to the interpretation of statutes, the singular can be interpreted to mean the plural. Under the language that we have used in the clause, it will be possible to have either one ballot paper with multiple questions or several different ballot papers, depending on the circumstances at the time. That would obviously be a detailed decision that the Government of the day would have to make, taking, I would very much hope, the advice of the Electoral Commission into account.

It should be noted that neither clause 12 nor any other clause in the Bill sets any other explicit parameters on the framing of the question. However, it is a condition separately in clauses 2, 3 and 6 that, for a proposal in a referendum to be passed, the majority of those voting should be in favour of the ratification of the treaty or approval of the decision, whichever it may be. That condition would logically require that the question be framed as a simple choice between two options, rather than a menu of options to which the responses would be much more difficult to interpret. In other words, it is implicit in the Bill that the question would be a binary one. It is the Government’s clear view that this should be the case for all and any referendums held under the provisions of the Bill.

[Mr Nuttall]

On the binary question, and whether we should have no/yes or yes/no, does the Minister agree that it is rather unusual that whereas individuals standing in an election are listed on the ballot paper in alphabetical order based on their surnames, when it comes to a referendum, for some reason the yes comes before the no? That is rather odd. I think that the no should be first and that the yes should come second.

[Mr Lidington]

I am sure that my hon. Friend means well, but I would urge him to have more confidence in our fellow citizens. In particular, I would point him to the referendum on the proposed assembly for the north-east of England. A yes vote was strongly supported by the then Labour Government, as well as enjoying the support of quite a number of public organisations in the north-east of England, but the proposition was resoundingly rejected by the public when it came to the ballot in that region. It is a good old Tory principle to trust the people, and I think that we should be content with that.

[Mr Nuttall]

I want to make it absolutely clear that I entirely agree with the principle of trusting the people. I have no doubt whatever that the people of this country are more than capable of working out which is which. I just thought it was rather odd that the yes should appear above the no, and I wondered whether there was any reason why that should be so.

[Mr Lidington]

As far as I am aware, there is no particular reason for it. However, the Electoral Commission will have a duty to comment on the question that the Government of the day have chosen, and I am sure that, if the Commission felt that placing yes above no gave an unfair advantage in some way, it would so opine and the Government would take account of that. It is quite difficult to envisage a ballot paper that did not have either yes or no at the top of the paper. At the end of the day, it comes down to a choice by the people: they have two options available to them, and I think that they will know which side they are on when it comes to the vote.

[Mr David]

I am tempted to ask the Minister whether Welsh will appear above English on the ballot papers in Wales, but I will not. Is there anything in the legislation that would prevent the Government from going back to the electorate if a no vote had been secured when the Government clearly wanted a yes vote? Could the question be put to the electorate for a second time, and, if so, what period would have to elapse before that could happen?

[Mr Lidington]

The Bill makes it very clear that the referendum condition has to be satisfied, in the circumstances in which the law requires a referendum to be held, before the Government are able to ratify the proposed treaty. I simply do not believe that any British Government who had been defeated at a referendum would then come forward and say to their electorate, “No, you’ve got it wrong. Let’s dissolve the people and have a new one!” That really does not make political sense.

[Mr David]

This is an important, although admittedly hypothetical, point. However, let us not forget what happened recently in Ireland.

[Mr Lidington]

What happened in Ireland was that the Irish Government went back to their EU partners and received various assurances, which were incorporated into a protocol to the treaties. We can debate whether the Irish Government were right or wrong to be satisfied by those assurances, but I actually think that it is a matter for the Irish people, not for me, to decide. In such slightly far-fetched, hypothetical circumstances, were a British Government to do as the hon. Gentleman suggests, they would have to bring the protocol back here and go through the entire process again, including the assessment of the ministerial declaration and the Act of Parliament. There would then have to be a new referendum. I just think that any Government who tried to do that would be punished so severely by the people every time they got the opportunity to go to the ballot box that it would be the last thing on any Minister’s mind.

[Mr Nuttall]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

Before I give way to my hon. Friend, may I just say that I am very conscious that we have another important clause to consider, if we can, before the 10 o’clock deadline?

[Mr Nuttall]

I, too, am conscious of that. The Minister says that the Irish situation was a rare occurrence, but he will be aware that it also occurred in Denmark and France. It is therefore not all that unusual in the European Union for second referendums to be held on the same or a very similar question.

[Mr Lidington]

I go back to what I said earlier: I trust the people. If a Government wanted to ask people to vote again, they would have to go through the entire procedure again—assuming that a new protocol or slightly revised treaty wording were involved—as well as having to persuade a pretty sceptical electorate that they should change their mind. I think that my hon. Friend is at risk of exaggerating the likelihood of those circumstances arising. While I do not think that the loss of a referendum vote on a European treaty amendment should determine whether a Government should fall, it would undoubtedly be a very severe political blow to that Government.

Once this Bill becomes law, I think the pressure will be the reverse of what my hon. Friend fears, as the pressure will be on any British incumbent Government to be very confident that they can carry support among the electorate for a treaty reform transferring new powers or competences to the European Union before they agree to it at the European Council. The arrangements we are putting in place thus provide safeguards against what my hon. Friend fears.

In any event, the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 requires the Electoral Commission to consider the wording of any referendum question when a Bill to provide for the holding of a poll is introduced in Parliament. In the case of a draft instrument, the Secretary of State is required to consult the Electoral Commission on the wording of the referendum question before any such draft is laid before Parliament for approval, and he or she is then required to lay before each House a report stating any views as to the intelligibility of that question which the Commission has expressed in response to the consultation. We have not sought to disapply that requirement, as we think the Electoral Commission plays an important role in ensuring both the neutrality of the question and that it is correctly and easily understood by voters.

Under PPERA, the Electoral Commission is required to consider the wording of the referendum questions for UK, national and regional referendums and for some local government referendums. Having done so, it is required to publish the statement of its views as soon as practicable and in such a manner as it may determine. Helpfully, the commission has developed guidelines to aid the drafting of intelligible referendum questions. In these, it says that a referendum question should present the options clearly, simply and neutrally so that it is easy to understand, to the point and unambiguous; and should avoid—I hope this helps my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North—encouraging voters to consider one response more favourably than another, and avoid misleading voters. In reaching its conclusions, the Electoral Commission adopts a systematic and thorough approach, which now has the advantage of some considerable experience behind it. It is also important that it publishes a report of methodology to enhance transparency and its credibility.

Clause 12 is thus a proportionate and sustainable provision to ensure that the voice of the British people can be heard on each question asked of the people. That, in turn, will help us with our commitment to rebuild the trust between Government, Parliament and the people, and to reconnect our people with decisions taken in their name on our continuing relationship with the European Union. For those reasons, the clause should stand part of the Bill.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I want to make a few brief points and hope that the Minister will come back to me on them. I note that after the Scottish elections of 2007, the Gould report concluded that it was preferable for referendum questions not be done as a multiplicity, but to be put separately after separate campaigns. I am particularly concerned because there has been a tendency on the part of some Governments to play somewhat fast and loose on whether there should be a referendum at all or, indeed, in respect of asking loaded questions. We need to be careful to ensure that if there is a combination of questions, the key issues are not edged together and confused, leading to a muddle in the public’s minds. That is a serious and substantial concern, so I would be grateful if the Minister would respond to it.

Also, I was not being frivolous when I asked the Minister how much it would cost if referendums were held on separate days—leaving aside the annoyance that voters might feel in being called time and again to the polls.

[Mr Lidington]

On my hon. Friend’s second point, I do not have precise figures. Clearly, our experience of national UK referendums is limited—the last being in 1975, as the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) has frequently reminded us today. The referendum on the voting system planned for later this year will no doubt give us some guidance. I am happy to write to my hon. Friend if I acquire any firmer indication of what the costs might be. Clearly, there would be financial advantages in combining more than one poll, whether it be a combination of referendums or of a referendum and a local or devolved election on the same day.

Let me say in fairness to the Gould report, to which my hon. Friend alluded, that although it criticised what happened in 2007, it also recognised that there were benefits in the combination of polls, such as reduced costs and a higher turnout. A well-managed referendum, involving close co-operation between us and the Electoral Commission and others, should allow us to maximise those benefits while avoiding the problems that undoubtedly occurred in 2007. Let me emphasise again, however, that the decision would need to be taken in the future, and would depend on the circumstances at the time.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 12 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 13

Role of Electoral Commission

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Lidington]

Clause 13 covers the role of the independent Electoral Commission in the administering of any future referendums held under the Bill. The clause would supplement the existing provisions of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. The Neill committee originally suggested the establishment of such a commission to supervise the restrictions on spending by, and donations to, both political parties and third parties.

As I have explained, we have not sought to disapply or replace any of the general provisions of PPERA. There is, of course, nothing to prevent Parliament doing so in any legislation that might be needed for a referendum in future, in order to reflect the context and the circumstances in which that referendum would be held. Significantly, however, the Act contains no provision to confer on the Electoral Commission power to promote public awareness and understanding of the subject matter of referendums.

We feel that, as part of the Government’s firm commitment to helping to rebuild trust and reconnect the British people to decisions made in their name on the European Union, it is important that the administration of any future referendum to be held under this Bill facilitate the understanding and clarity required to enable the British people to make informed decisions on whether or not to approve a treaty change or decision that would transfer power or competence from Britain to Brussels. Clause 13 provides that if a referendum is triggered under the EU Bill, the Electoral Commission has an obligation to take whatever steps it thinks appropriate to promote public awareness of the referendum and how to vote in it.

[Mr David]

I hear what the Minister says about an appropriate public debate and a high degree of awareness, but the clause states that the Electoral Commission

“may take whatever steps they think appropriate”.

If the Minister thinks that public awareness is so important, why did he not ensure that the word “will” was used rather than the word “may”?

[Mr Lidington]

The Electoral Commission was rightly established as an independent body. I think it important for the Government not to issue instructions to it, and to be seen not to do so. Given that the commission’s value to our political process is by virtue of its being a completely independent statutory body, I consider it right for us to give it these new powers without laying down rules requiring it to use them in a particular way. It is for the commission to make its own judgments. How it chooses to promote awareness is rightly a matter for it, but we are giving it a statutory duty to promote awareness before any referendum held under the provisions of the Bill.

[Mr Nuttall]

Perhaps I can help the Minister. Clause 13(a) says that the commission

“must take whatever steps they think appropriate to promote public awareness”

of the existence of the referendum, but

“may take whatever steps they think appropriate to promote public awareness of the subject-matter of the referendum.”

I suggest to the Minister that that may mean giving appropriate amounts of money to the yes campaign and to the no campaign.

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend’s helpful intervention will probably have given some reassurance to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David).

We are seeking to encourage greater participation, and providing clarity so that the people know what they would be voting for regardless of which way they choose to vote. We are following the practice adopted for the North East assembly referendum in 2004, and the approach taken in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.

If I may, I refer the hon. Member for Caerphilly to the 2003 enabling Act for the north-east regional assemblies referendum. It included clause 8, supplementary to PPERA, on “encouraging voting”, and that—