European Union Bill

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Tuesday 25th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I beg to move amendment 57, page 4, line 36, at end insert—

‘(2A) A Minister of the Crown may not give a notification, under Article 4 of Protocol (No. 21) on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to TEU and TFEU, which relates to participation by the United Kingdom in a European Public Prosecutor’s Office or an extension of the powers of that Office unless—

(a) the notification has been approved by Act of Parliament, and

(b) the referendum condition is met.’.

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 54, page 4, line 36, at end insert—

‘(2A) A Minister of the Crown may not confirm the approval by the United Kingdom of a decision under the provision of Article 25 of TFEU that permits the adoption of provisions to strengthen or add to the rights listed in Article 20(2) of that Treaty (Rights of citizens of the European Union) unless—

(a) the decision is approved by Act of Parliament, and

(b) the referendum condition is met.’.

Government amendment 58.

Amendment 81, page 4, line 42, at end insert—

‘(aa) a decision under Article 43 of TFEU which would result in the removal of the existing powers of the United Kingdom in relation to nautical limits;’.

Amendment 36, page 5, line 5, at end insert—

‘(ba) a decision under the provision of Article 81(3) of TFEU (family law) that permits the application of the ordinary legislative procedure in place of a special legislative procedure;’.

Amendment 37, page 5, line 5, at end insert—

‘(bb) a decision under the provision of Article 82(2)(d) of TFEU (minimum rules on criminal procedure) that permits the identification of further specific aspects of criminal procedure to which directives adopted under the ordinary legislative procedure may relate;’.

Amendment 38, page 5, line 5, at end insert—

‘(bc) a decision under the provision of Article 83(1) of TFEU that permits the identification of further areas of crime to which directives adopted under the ordinary legislative procedure may relate;’.

Amendment 100, page 5, line 27, after ‘(enhanced co-operation)’, insert ‘except in the field of EU patents’.

Amendment 13, page 5, line 33, at end insert—

‘(ja) a decision which results in the participation of the United Kingdom in any enhanced co-operation procedure.’.

Amendment 8, page 5, line 35, at end insert—

‘(l) a decision to extend the use of the European Financial Stability Mechanism to member states other than the Republic of Ireland.’.

Amendment 79, page 5, line 35, at end insert—

‘(4A) In subsection (1) “decision” includes a further implementation of the decision under Article 122 of TFEU to extend the use of the European Financial Stability Mechanism to any member state other than the Republic of Ireland.’.

Amendment 40, page 14, line 9 [Schedule 1], at end insert— ‘Article 81(3) (family law).’.

Amendment 55, in clause 7, page 5, leave out lines 44 to 46.

[Mr Lidington]

We turn now to decisions on which a referendum would always be required. Decisions taken in accordance with the treaty provisions listed in clause 6 would always require approval by Act of Parliament and a referendum. One group of decisions covered by clause 6 are the one-way, irreversible decisions that would transfer competence from the United Kingdom to the European Union, including a decision that the UK would participate in a European public prosecutor’s office, which can be set up to combat crimes affecting the EU’s financial interests. Should the UK ever take part in the European public prosecutor following such a referendum, the decision that this country should take part in any expansion of the powers of that prosecutor is also listed in clause 6 and would therefore also be subject to primary legislation and a referendum.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr MacShane]

I will leave that point for my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench. I am not sure whether their new clause has been selected for debate today, but it proposes to set up a broad oversight committee, which might indeed be a rival to the Committee of the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash). I do not think that the proposal will make much progress, however.

The worry for me is that, at least among the majority party on the Government Benches, we have a Eurosceptic majority. We have to accept that. There are also many Eurosceptics on these Benches—[Interruption.]

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Mr MacShane, could you please turn your phone off? This is the second time that it has rung in the course of your contribution. While I am on my feet, may I ask you to refer to the amendments, and not to be tempted by interventions to reflect on anything that is not within them?

[Mr MacShane]

I apologise, Ms Primarolo. I thought that the phone was in silent mode, but it was not. I have learned something. At least my tie is sober and silent! I accept that interventions have dragged me here and there, but we are a friendly kind of House when it comes to European debates—to begin with, at least. I have been trying to sit down for about 10 minutes, but hon. Members just will not let me.

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

Perhaps I can help the right hon. Gentleman to sit down. Has he concluded his remarks? If not, he may continue, but he should not reflect on what I have said.

[Mr MacShane]

I was concluding my remarks until various Members got up to intervene.

My conclusion is simply this. There may come a time—not now, I accept—when a majority in this House and a duly elected Government feel that they want to take the lead to alter a European Union treaty—to propose a new one or make amendments to an existing one. They will then find that they are being held back by the tone, if not the strict legal content, of this Bill. This is coming dangerously close to what an Under-Secretary at the Foreign Office, Mr Henry Hopkinson, said about Cyprus in 1956—that it would “never” be free.

I genuinely worry about the signal we are sending to our EU partners at a time when we all, quite irrespective of our party political positions, need more co-operation and more enforcement in Europe, whether it be on Tunisia, on growth policies or on finding solutions to the problem in Ireland, where, as the Prime Minister rightly pointed out, we export three and a half times more British goods than we do to China. I worry greatly that this Bill, and particularly the new clause on the need for effective prosecution of criminality in Europe, will send out precisely the opposite signals. Our nation might well suffer, not tonight or in the next few weeks or months, but in the future, as a result of this deeply isolationist proposal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Carmichael]

rose—

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

Order. Before the hon. Gentleman responds, may I gently remind him that this is not a Second Reading debate about the entire Bill? We are discussing specific amendments to clause 6, to which I am sure he is about to return, as he said he would.

[Neil Carmichael]

You are absolutely right, Ms Primarolo. I have been taken down this track by others. I am very keen to answer any questions, because it is important that questions are answered—I would not want to be accused of ignoring them—so I am going to respond quickly to that one. I did not say that the Bill could not be repealed; I simply said that it would not be repealed, because no Government in their right mind would be keen to deny a referendum in that way.

The Bill will strengthen Britain’s negotiating position, because it will make sure—

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

Order. Mr Carmichael, I would like you to refer to the amendments. You have been speaking for some time now, and you keep saying that you are coming to the amendments. I would now like you to talk about them and not the general principles of the Bill.

[Neil Carmichael]

Thank you very much, Ms Primarolo. The problem is that I keep on getting interrupted.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

Order. Before we proceed, I want to say to Members that given the breadth of the debate on this group of amendments, I am not minded, under the Standing Orders, to take a clause stand part debate. I hope that hon. Members will bear that in mind when they make their contributions—although those who have already spoken do not appear to have done so.

[Mike Gapes]

Thank you, Ms Primarolo. I take it, then, that if I widen my remarks, I will remain in order—subject, of course, to the occupant of the Chair.

I begin by following up a comment of the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) when he said that the former Prime Minister had said, “They are our fish”. One thing about fish is that they do not stay in one place; they can move. If they do not move, they may be over-fished, and there may be a need to have some kind of collective policy to protect “our fish”. It is very easy to say that these are “our fish”, but the fish might swim away and not come back another day.