BBC

Daniel Kawczynski Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to introduce the debate under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. The reason why I sought the debate was a strong interest in how the BBC is scrutinised and what is happening in this organisation. My first recollection of the BBC is from the time when I used to go back to Poland, in communist times, and see my grandfather. At the end of the day, we would draw the curtains and quietly listen to the BBC World Service. Of course, in those times, it was illegal to listen to outside broadcasters. If people were caught, they were punished. My grandfather and many other Poles behind the iron curtain were very relieved and grateful to be able to listen to the BBC World Service because it brought them the truth, which, regrettably, they were not able to get from communist propaganda and the media there.

The experience that I have described was very positive, but I want now to read out a quote from The Economist in July 2010 that encapsulates my thinking and that of many other Conservative MPs. It says:

“Here is a curious paradox about British conservatives. Challenge them to defend grand British institutions, from the Royal Family to the House of Lords or the lack of a written constitution, and they argue passionately about the dangers of tampering and meddling with things that evolved organically over time. They will talk about the British genius of leaving well alone. Perhaps you would not start from here, they may concede, and parts of our system may look a bit odd to outsiders, even extravagantly so. But these fragile accretions work rather well, they say, and would not survive piecemeal attempts to reform and tweak them. If it ain’t broke, in other words, don’t fix it.

And yet, get the same British conservatives onto the subject of the BBC, and they turn into wild-eyed Jacobins, yearning to punish and slash and burn and stick the heads of senior BBC staff on spikes.”

I have to say that that rather encapsulates my thinking about the BBC. I do not understand what it is about this organisation that gets my blood pressure rising and gets me so upset and irritated. I hope to be able to raise some of the issues that certainly frustrate me as a parliamentarian and a representative of taxpayers.

The BBC was set up in 1929, and of course I understand that in the late 1920s it needed to have state funding. However, the 1920s were a very different era from today. We have to think—I give this very important challenge to my hon. Friend the Minister—about how appropriate it is in 2012 for this broadcaster to receive such huge amounts of taxpayers’ money. The BBC is insulated from reality with that comfort blanket of taxpayers’ money. It knows that, no matter what it does, billions of pounds of taxpayers’ money will be poured into its organisation. I feel passionately that there is a lack of urgency, a lack, if I may say so, of innovation and a lack of determination to compete due to the secure nature of its state funding. I would like to know from the Minister what plans he has to ensure that more commercialism is brought to the BBC and that it is forced to pay for itself, rather than relying on taxpayers’ money.

I personally object to having to pay £145.50 every year to have a television licence. The public affairs department at the BBC keeps telling me how wonderfully cost-effective that is—much cheaper than any other broadcaster—but I personally object to having to pay £145.50 for the privilege of having a television licence. In 2012, it is somewhat out of date that citizens have to pay for the privilege of owning a television set. One should automatically be able to have a television and watch it without the need for a licence.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on succeeding in securing so important a debate. I recognise his doubts in relation to the licence fee and the guaranteed income that the BBC receives. Would his doubts be satisfied if there were greater transparency over how that money was spent? Every local authority in England publishes every invoice for amounts in excess of £500. Does he think that that would be an admirable model for the BBC to follow?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I completely concur. The BBC has been guilty in the past in the sense that trying to extract information from it has been like pulling teeth without anaesthetic. I do not understand why it has to have this cloak-and-dagger mystery surrounding how it spends taxpayers’ money, because at the end of the day—we must remember this—it is taxpayers’ money. I want to ram that point home over and over again. We are scrutinised here in the House of Commons because we are funded by taxpayers. The BBC is also funded by taxpayers and it has to be as transparent as Parliament is trying to be.

[Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD)]

Does my hon. Friend therefore join me in welcoming the coalition Government’s very early decision to introduce the requirement that the BBC opens up its accounts to the National Audit Office?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Yes, I concur with my right hon. Friend. I am a great supporter of the coalition Government, and what he refers to is one of their early success stories.

I reiterate to the Minister the need for commercial activity and, dare I say it—this will be anathema to the BBC—some form of privatisation. I see people in the Public Gallery shaking their heads, but we have to think the unthinkable and challenge the BBC, because it does not understand the meaning of reform and adapting to the modern era. I would like also to talk about the salaries of senior executives.

[Mr Foster]

I apologise for interrupting again so soon, but on the issue of the commercial sector, is my hon. Friend aware that a day’s viewing on Sky costs roughly £1.50, whereas a day’s viewing on the BBC costs 40p? The private sector is not doing very well by comparison, particularly when we bear in mind the fact that 26% of Sky viewing is of BBC programmes anyway and has already been paid for.

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. Before the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) replies and continues his speech, I remind all hon. Members that, for the purposes of debate, the Public Gallery is invisible—it does not exist. It does not matter how much members of the public are gesticulating, Members should not recognise them.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Yes, I apologise for that, Sir Roger, but the particular gesticulating was rather irritating and I wanted to highlight it. [Laughter.] May I carry on by saying that I do have a concern about the salaries of senior BBC executives? The outgoing director-general had a salary of more than £800,000. Of course, the BBC says that that remuneration is commensurate with other levels of remuneration in the industry and that in fact it is less than that for comparable positions in other organisations. Again, I find it very difficult to comprehend how someone working in the public sector, with taxpayers’ money, can have such a large salary.

To answer the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr Foster), which I had forgotten to do, Sky may cost more, but at least I have the option of paying or not paying for a Sky subscription. I do not have the option of not paying the BBC its licence fee—I have no option—so there is an important distinction there.

I am told that the new director-general will take a pay cut—to a mere £450,000 per annum. I do not believe that I am the only person in the country who is concerned that the director-general of the BBC will receive such an enormous salary. We must ask ourselves what is so special about running the BBC that means that the director-general receives twice the remuneration of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. We all, particularly those of us who have come from the private sector, acknowledge that we need to take pay cuts to do this job. We believe in what we do and understand that we are working in the public sector and paid with taxpayers’ money, so we cannot receive the same salaries that we received in the private sector. People in very senior positions in the BBC must also try to understand that, particularly in the very difficult economic circumstances the UK faces. It is essential for them to take a lead on this. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about increased transparency in the salaries of senior executives and what steps are being taken to cut those salaries further.

One must not forget that there are many extremely hard-working, good BBC employees in regional radio who are paid rather small salaries. I would like to highlight the great differences in remuneration between those at the very top and other people working in the BBC.

I was very upset about the BBC’s coverage of the jubilee celebrations. I watched it; I thought it was scandalous, shabby and rather unprofessional. It is part and parcel of what I call the “dumbing down” of the BBC—not treating the audience in a sophisticated way, but being what it must perceive to be modern and trendy. It did not understand its importance. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) may laugh, but this is part and parcel of debating and putting forward different and contrasting views.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman was not at street parties and had time to watch the BBC coverage of the jubilee.

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[Daniel Kawczynski]

Even I am allowed to watch a very important celebration like the special 60th anniversary of Her Majesty coming to power. I quickly tuned away from the BBC and switched to—

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

Al-Jazeera?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

No, not al-Jazeera—to Sky, because of the coverage.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

I understand the passionate case that my hon. Friend makes. It is a free market; people can switch to other channels. He must recognise that the biggest viewing figures for all such national events are still with the BBC, but that is choice as opposed to compulsion. In terms of the BBC’s future and accountability, does he agree that, with technology, licence fee payers could be more involved in the appointment of, and indeed could vote for, non-executive directors to represent them on the board of the BBC Trust?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Yes, that is a reasonable and sensible point, but I am trying to get my hon. Friend the Minister to understand and take on board the wishes of those citizens, like myself, who do not want to watch the BBC or pay a licence fee of £145.50. At the moment, I do not believe that the BBC is as good as other channels on television. He may say that it is impossible—“You cannot detach yourself from this additional tax. You have to pay it and you have no alternative.”—but in this era we should think differently. I cannot believe that I am the only British citizen who does not want to watch the BBC and does not want to pay the licence fee.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

My hon. Friend puts his case forcefully; his reputation precedes him. Perhaps he could move on to more positive elements of the BBC, such as BBC Radio Shropshire, of which I know he is an enormous fan. That is paid for by the licence fee.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

My hon. Friend the Minister knows that I would not miss an opportunity to refer to BBC Radio Shropshire. It is a gem—the one glimmer of light in the whole organisation. I will come on to BBC Radio Shropshire shortly.

I have a serious point about the lack of foreign news on the domestic BBC. I am always amazed at how much trivial information is given out by the BBC in its news bulletins. There is very little about what is happening in parts of the world such as Latin America. For example, an extraordinary coup took place in Paraguay just the other week, and, of course, there was no coverage of it on the BBC. I could mention all sorts of interesting political developments in Africa, Latin America, the far east and eastern Europe that the BBC simply does not cover. It is difficult for people to understand what is happening across the world if the BBC constantly focuses on celebrity gossip and the UK to the exclusion of important and detailed constitutional changes taking place around the world.

I heavily criticise the fact that the BBC does not show foreign films. The reason why people speak such eloquent English in other European countries is that they are constantly watching English films with subtitles. It is a wonderful way for people, particularly the young, to learn another language. They watch a foreign programme and, particularly if it is a series that they like and watch weekly, listen to the audio, but read the subtitles in their own language. I challenge anybody in the room to say how often they see foreign films shown on the BBC with subtitles. It is a very rare occurrence and I would like it to happen more often.

I would also like to challenge the interview style of certain interviewers. I refer particularly to Mr Paxman. I do not know what problem this man has got; perhaps he is not getting enough exercise or something. There is something wrong with this man—something fundamentally, emotionally wrong with the way in which he interviews people. Most politicians who are interviewed by him immediately clam up and seize up, and the interview is not very conducive to finding out what they think. They are guarded and do not want to interact fully, engage or explain what they are pursuing, due to the sheer aggression and patronising tone that this man always brings to interviews. When the Economic Secretary to the Treasury was interviewed recently, I was appalled at the way he treated her: the derisory contempt and the patronising tone—highly aggressive and highly rude.

I suppose that some people might get some form of titillation from watching such a combative interview style, but they must ask themselves, where does it get the audience? Are they any closer to understanding what the Minister seeks to say or the policy of the person being interviewed? I rather suspect that the answers are a mystery to the person watching, because the focus has been on the aggression. I have asked the BBC how much money it spends on anger management courses, but I have yet to receive an answer. It should put some of these people on anger management courses, because they really need to get a grip.

I am not asking for interviews in the style of communist Romania, with sycophants interviewing communist apparatchiks in easy interviews. Interviewers should not accommodate politicians, but there are countries where the relationship between the interviewer and the politician is much healthier and focused on the questions, rather than the conduct of the interviewer.

Of course, I also have complaints about John Humphrys, by whom I have been interviewed on the “Today” programme. He is extremely patronising and arrogant, and does not let one answer any questions. That is in huge contrast to when I was interviewed on the BBC by Mr Andrew Marr. I wrote a biography of Colonel Gaddafi and was invited in not as a politician but as an author. It was fascinating that the tone of the interview was completely different. Mr Marr was interested in what I had to say and asked probing questions in a manner conducive to starting a communication. I felt that the listener was interested in the interaction we were having. Being interviewed at the BBC as an author is, in my experience, different from being interviewed as a politician.

Of course, I am coming to the one ray of light in the BBC world, which is, as my hon. Friend the Minister pointed out, Radio Shropshire, a wonderful organisation run by Mr Tim Beech. It is important to me because it is meaningful; it is where the BBC works. Because it is focused on Shropshire and has local presenters, who talk about local issues affecting my constituents and the community where I live, it is, for me and my constituents, a meaningful body. I admire it greatly. However, again, the BBC focuses just on inner-city areas and neglects rural parts of the country. For example, there is no television camera at BBC Radio Shropshire, in Shrewsbury. Someone who happens to live in Shropshire, the largest land-locked county in England, cannot be interviewed by the BBC. On Saturday, the BBC telephoned me for an interview about the elections in Libya, and bombarded me with telephone calls. I said, “Look, I’m sorry, I can’t do it, because there is no television camera here in Shrewsbury.” The BBC said, “We’ll have to take you to the nearest station, which is Birmingham.” I am not going to do a 90-mile round trip on a Saturday afternoon, when I am with my family, to do a five-minute interview about elections in Libya. The point I am making is not just that politicians in Shropshire must travel 90 miles to do television interviews. There are many charities and important voluntary sector organisations in Shropshire that would like to take such opportunities, but it is impossible for them because the nearest television camera is in Birmingham, which is a 92-mile round trip from Shrewsbury.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey]

It so happens I was on BBC Suffolk this morning, discussing lively political issues. In Ipswich we have a camera, so my hon. Friend may want to suggest to the editor that he get one. Would my hon. Friend at least give recognition to the fact that after a vigorous campaign by Members of Parliament, the BBC has put local radio firmly back into the future of the BBC and should be congratulated on rethinking its proposed regional strategy?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Yes, I agree with that. It is an important point and I want the Minister to take cognisance of the fact that Conservative Members of Parliament are interested in the regionalisation of the BBC and in making it more meaningful for local residents. I am delighted for my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) that there is a camera in Ipswich. I have written to the director-general of the BBC about the lack of one in Shrewsbury and lobbied senior BBC executives for the past seven years, to no effect. I hope that, as I have raised it again with the Minister today, some action may be forthcoming to ensure that the important county of Shropshire will have a television camera.

It costs £124.6 million to collect the licence fee, and I want hon. Members to remember that figure. I have been in touch with the BBC public affairs department, which says that that is extremely good value for money, and that those involved are doing a great job. However, let us remember what £124 million is. Sometimes we refer to these figures without trying to understand their gravity. In 2012, when we must make cuts because of the state of the public finances, is it right and appropriate to have two licensing centres, one of which, I believe, is in Preston and the other in Darlington? Is that the optimum way to handle matters? I have asked the BBC to tell me how many people work in those centres, and the response from the public affairs department is, “We don’t know, and that is not a relevant question.” It has a contractor to do such things. I am worried about that, because we should know how many people work at the TV licensing centres.

I want to know why the operation costs £124 million. Think for a moment, Sir Roger, what we could do with that money. Is the present method the only way to collect the licence fee, or are there other innovative ways in which it could be done? I shall say something which will shock hon. Members: I do not want to pay the licence fee, but is it possible for some sort of direct taxation to be used? I do not know; I am only throwing that idea into the air, because I would like the Minister to explain what work he has done on assessing how the licence fee can be collected better, and how the cost of doing it can be reduced from £124.6 million.

I feel passionately about foreign affairs. I am the chairman of the all-party groups on Saudi Arabia and Libya and have a strong interest in Mauritania. Not many people talk about Mauritania, but it is where the Arab spring and democratisation started. I am always amazed: I argue frequently with BBC people who criticise certain countries—Mauritania in particular; I say to them, “Have you actually been?” “No.” There is a liberal élite—as I keep referring to it—at the BBC, which is always judgmental, high-handed and opinionated, without doing research on the ground about what is really happening in Saudi Arabia, Mauritania and other Arab countries. I suggest that before those people cast aspersions on or express opinions about those countries, they must spend time doing research. If they give the wrong impression about countries such as Mauritania, it may preclude or hinder some British companies from interacting with or investing in them.

One of the most important aspects of the debate comes from a friend of mine, with whom I was at university, who works for the BBC in the north of England. He has given me a document to read out, but he has asked to remain anonymous. Such is the culture of fear in the BBC: people who work there fear they will be reprimanded if they say anything negative. My friend writes:

“Over the past 12 months…the BBC has been insisting that freelancers earning over…a certain amount per year (in the region of £10,000 p.a) shall set up service companies, and invoice the BBC through the company rather than individually.

The BBC are running scared of the HMRC. IR35 rule. They were afraid that if the revenue were to closely examine the working arrangements of many freelance professionals, with reference to their work for the corporation, then HMRC would possibly rule that the freelancers were in fact in full time employment with the BBC. This would render the BBC liable for employers’ national insurance contributions totalling many hundreds of thousands of pounds. To escape this possible liability, the corporation has insisted on the service company arrangement, otherwise new contracts would not be issued to the individuals concerned.”

Let me pause there for a moment. Those employees, some of whom have worked for the organisation for many years, are being told that if they do not set up their own companies and invoice the BBC through those companies, their contracts will be terminated. I find that behaviour staggering and highly deplorable. My friend goes on to say:

“That was the stark ultimatum issued by the BBC. Many freelancers are extremely unhappy with this arrangement which brings with it extra costs in setting up the company and extra accountancy fees. And of course this immediately puts the individual in the spotlight as far as NI contributions are concerned. It is they (the freelancers) not the BBC who could now be liable for National Insurance contributions as the individual is now employed by their own service company - but it gets the BBC off the hook!! It should be noted that individual freelancers have never been paid for time off for sickness or holidays. At the same time the BBC continues to impose strict contract conditions on such freelancers (even through the service company) as far as work outside the BBC is concerned. However there are exceptions to this rule, with a number of high profile (and extremely well paid) personalities still allowed to expand their portfolio of work outside the corporation, with, in many cases, high profile television advertising commissions or newspaper features. Whether or not this is allowed seems to boil down to the amount of ‘clout’ the individual has—in other words would the BBC not wish to lose their services? If the answer is that it would not, then they (the freelancers) seem to be able to do what they wish and for whom they like. The BBC is acting like a bully and getting away with it whenever it can, riding roughshod over loyal freelancers who have served them without the protection of staff contracts, in some cases for many years.”

I have given a copy of this letter to the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, who has taken a great interest in it and has promised an investigation. The behaviour of the BBC in this regard is scandalous and I urge the Minister to give it his very close attention.

I thank you, Sir Roger, for giving me the opportunity to speak, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s contribution.

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. There are, I think, nine hon. Members present. No doubt all of them wish to rise to extol the virtues of their local BBC radio stations, all of which are on a par of excellence with BBC Radio Kent. The fact of the matter is that we are short of time. I propose to call those on the Front Bench at 10.40. To be as helpful as I can to hon. Members, I do not propose to impose a time limit, but you can do the maths for yourselves. I will call first those who have written in to Mr Speaker to indicate a desire to speak. The batting order is: Mr McDonnell, Mr Foster, Andy Slaughter, Sheryll Murray and Glyn Davies. I have noted that Mr Mulholland, Thérèse Coffey, Alun Cairns and Jim Shannon are all in the Chamber and wish to speak, and your names are a matter of record. If you do not wish to participate in the debate, or feel that you might not get called, you are free to intervene if any hon. Member wishes to give way.

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[John McDonnell]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely spot-on. The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham said that there are high salaries at the top of the BBC, and low salaries at the bottom and on the front line. That issue must be addressed, and can be through the remuneration committee, which should include staff and listener representatives. That way, pay could be controlled.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

The hon. Gentleman said that three members of staff were being made redundant on “Newsnight”. Our understanding is that Mr Paxman earns about £800,000 per annum. If he were prepared to receive a measly £200,000 per annum, we could save those other three jobs.

[John McDonnell]

I look forward to the hon. Gentleman putting that to Mr Paxman in his next interview. Having said that, he makes a valid point about high salaries overall; we all agree on that issue.

However, we are not just talking about BBC salaries internally. What I find amazing is how much is being spent on consultants. The unions have produced their own figures on that subject, and they say that £3 million went to Deloitte’s alone in 2010-11. In fact, £8 million was spent on consultants that year, despite the 20% cuts overall within the BBC. There is a profligacy that must be addressed by management, and it would be best addressed if they take their staff with them in examining these issues.

Some bizarre and wasteful projects have gone ahead. The new Broadcasting House building in central London cost more than £1 billion, and the Public Accounts Committee has criticised the BBC’s flawed digital media initiative, which wasted £26 million. There are real issues that the BBC must address.

At the end of the day, however, the reality is that for every £1 spent on the BBC, another £2 is generated in income right the way across the economy. That is not the case with Sky. For every £1 spent on Sky, only 90p comes back to the rest of the economy; the rest goes out of the country. So, we must recognise the asset that the BBC is and, therefore, the need for continuing investment.

That is why I support the continuation of the licence fee, but the licence fee debate does need to be reopened. There was a fix at the height of the Murdoch influence, during that weekend in October 2010, and there was a lack of transparency, as has been demonstrated by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee’s criticism of that process. If we do not reopen the licence fee debate, my fear is that we will see a gradual erosion of BBC services and that it will lose some of its core functions. In the long term, that could undermine that generation of creativity—particularly in entertainment—that is helping us to rebalance our economy away from an over-reliance on finance and back towards manufacturing, thereby protecting the long-term future of the creative industries.

That is why I would welcome the Secretary of State reopening the dialogue and discussion about the future of the BBC in a creative way, and his engaging today with the unions, whose report is an incredibly constructive contribution to this debate.

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[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I congratulate the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on securing this important debate at an excellent moment in the history of the BBC, given that it has a new director-general. I hope that the director-general will read this debate and take to heart many of the things that hon. Members have said.

All hon. Members present agree with some of the things that the hon. Gentleman has said. I think we all agree that there is too much pay inequality in the BBC. It is good that the new director-general has agreed to a reduced salary—he will be paid less than his predecessor—but I fear that the issue reflects pay inequalities in the sector in general, which seem to be, if not at banker standards, extremely high. The hon. Gentleman also has a point about aggressive and biased interviewing. I remember reading the transcript of a “Today” programme interview with Jacqui Smith when she was Home Secretary, in which she was not able to complete one single sentence. As the hon. Gentleman has said, that is not illuminating for the listener.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the possibility of privatisation and further reforms to the licence fee, but I do not believe that that is where the BBC should go. The fact is that most of the television news that people watch in this country—70% of it—is on various BBC channels, and that is because they trust the BBC news. That is a good thing, and the BBC has a good reputation. I will deal with whether it could improve its editorial quality, but its reputation is a positive. I do not think that the Panglossian view expressed by the right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster) is totally right. Those are the facts. We do not want the BBC to be less trusted than it is at present.

Although the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham talked about privatisation, he did not mention what was at one point the Murdoch agenda of breaking up the BBC. There have also been some discussions about whether the BBC should be treated on all fours with the commercial broadcasters when Ofcom reviews the competition rules. The Secretary of State has asked that question and, while it is worth asking it, I want to explain why the answer is that the BBC is different from the commercial broadcasters and should be treated as such.

First, there is the issue of public accountability, a point that the BBC itself made in its submission. It is a valid argument, but perhaps the BBC is not as open as it thinks it is, which has led to some of the frustrations voiced by hon. Members. Secondly, the licence fee gives the BBC a privileged position, so we can expect high standards from it.

What we are really trying to achieve in news and in television coverage in general is greater diversity. One route taken by the BBC—this should be taken into account—is to put out 25% of all production to independent producers, which means that there is internal plurality within the BBC’s programme making.

The really powerful people in television in this country, however, are the commissioning editors, a small number of whom have a huge amount of power over what we watch. They presume to know what the public want, and they measure their success according to ratings, but that is only half the story. I want the views of the public to be taken into account more directly when commissioning. In a recent experiment, Channel 4 asked the public what repeats they wanted to see, but it would be far more interesting if we asked audiences what programmes they would like to be made about subjects that they have not seen any coverage of. I am sure that if we put the same question to listeners of Radio 1 and of Radio 4, they would come up with different ideas, but we should involve the public far more in public commissioning. The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham might then get the programmes on Mauritania that he would like to see, but perhaps not.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

The hon. Lady mentioned the important word “diversity”. Does she agree that the BBC needs to do more to ensure that senior executives are more diverse and that more of them come from more diverse backgrounds and from ethnic minorities? Senior executives are far too white, far too privileged and come from a very small section of society.

[Helen Goodman]

Diversity is the exact issue that I want to address. There are various dimensions to diversity. A big survey on how women are used in programming focused on the number of women employed by the BBC and the number of women experts whom it interviews. It found that the number of women used is way below that of men, which is not acceptable, because women also pay the licence fee. We cannot tolerate it.

Does having more men in management result in a better picture on the screen? The new director-general is, of course, a man—as Jack Lemmon was told at the end of “Some Like It Hot”, “Well, nobody’s perfect.”—but I hope that he will continue the process of enabling us to see more women on screen.

My final point on diversity relates to the regions, which many hon. Members have mentioned. With apologies to my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), who made a devastating critique of the BBC’s property portfolio management—he seems to have renamed himself the hon. Member for White City—the BBC is, and is perceived to be, very London-centric. A major effort was made to address that by moving to Salford. The fact is that Salford and London are two places and there are many more places across the entire nation. We want to see programmes that reflect life in many other areas.

For example, it is the Durham miners ‘gala this Saturday. Eighty thousand people will be in Durham listening to speeches at this huge cultural festival, which has been going on for 125 years. I have never seen any national coverage of the miners’ gala. We will get it this year, because the leader of the Opposition, my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), will make a speech, but we should receive the coverage anyway. It should not require that speech for people to see such a major event. The regions and the issue of diversity are extremely important.