Draft Important Public Services (Health) Regulations 2017 Draft Important Public Services (Border Security) Regulations 2017 Draft Important Public Services (Fire) Regulations 2017

Chris Stephens Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2017 General Committees

[Margot James]

I can confirm that Ministers in what was the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills did have discussions with their counterparts in the Scottish Government.

As I was saying, strike action in important public services in the health, border security and fire sectors can have a significant impact on the public. That is why we have introduced a 40% approval threshold, which is to apply to important public services such as health, border security and fire, in addition to the requirement for a 50% turnout threshold.

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

Have the Government considered that part of the role of public sector workers—because of their role profiles and job descriptions—may be covered under the regulations, whereas some aspects of their work may not be? If so, how do the Government seek to address that with the trade unions?

[Margot James]

This is not a blanket coverage of every worker and every job description in the public service categories that we are debating. The regulations pertain to listed job descriptions within those important sectors. They do not encompass every single worker; they encompass workers whose work has a direct impact on the public in those sectors. If the hon. Gentleman wants a more specific answer on exact job categories, I can provide that, but not at this juncture.

During the passage of the Trade Union Bill last year, the Government consulted on the services within the public service categories set out in the legislation that should be subject to the 40% threshold and on how the threshold should operate in practice. We analysed more than 200 responses, reviewed the available evidence on the impact of strike action across different public services and listened to stakeholders’ views. The Government response to the consultation was published in January last year, when we also published the draft regulations. The substance of those draft regulations was discussed in Parliament during the passage of the Trade Union Bill. The regulations limit the application of the threshold to those services in the health, border security and fire sectors where there is the most compelling evidence of the impact of strike action. The regulations will ensure that the scope of strike action is proportionate.

What does that mean for the sectors affected? The pressing social need that we are addressing in the health sector is the risk to life or injury to the public in the event of industrial action. We have therefore focused the impact of the threshold where reduced service levels can have the most immediate impact on the lives and safety of patients and the public. That is why the regulations cover emergency and urgent health services. That includes—this goes some way to responding to the hon. Member for Glasgow South West’s question— ambulance staff, accident and emergency medical staff in hospitals, services that are provided in high-dependency units and intensive care in hospitals, and psychiatric, obstetric and midwifery services provided in hospitals for conditions that require immediate attention to prevent serious injury, illness or loss of life.

In the fire sector, our aim again is to protect the public against the risk to life or injury. In the light of that, we have focused on firefighting services, including co-ordination of the emergency response, because those services are critical to ensuring that fires are dealt with promptly and effectively to protect the public.

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[Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)]

I will just say a few words. I welcome the regulations, which are made under the Trade Union Act 2016, which passed through the House with a majority. We are talking about the right of people to live—to survive and live their daily lives—versus the right of a small group in a union to withdraw their labour. We all respect and value the trade union movement, as I have often said. However, there must be circumstances pertaining to important and essential public services when rights must be expressed with a clear voice, as opposed to what happens in instances such as the teachers’ strike in 2014, when just 22% voted to strike. There have been many occasions like that.

We must take heed of the sector we are talking about, and the impact on people’s right to enjoy their lives.

[Chris Stephens]

The hon. Gentleman mentions the teachers’ dispute, and claims that 22% voted in a particular way. Surely the education trade union involved must have made an assessment of whether enough people would take part in industrial action. Did 22% of teachers go out on strike, or more than that?

[Adam Afriyie]

I do not know the figures for how many came out on strike, but I know that 22% expressed the desire to strike, which means that the overwhelming majority did not. The question at that point is whether it is right that one in four or one in five people can force a strike on others while disrupting people’s education and the entire education system for a time.

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[Chris Stephens]

It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey.

There will probably be six main themes to my remarks this afternoon, which will probably be in a similar vein to those I expressed yesterday. Just like yesterday, the debate in the main Chamber today is about the proposal to trigger article 50 and leave the European Union. As the hon. Member for Walthamstow has said, we have calculated whether the leave vote in the UK reached the 40% threshold and the answer is no. Some 37.4% of the UK population voted to leave the European Union—to apply the same test to the referendum as the Government wish to apply to trade unions—so it seems to be double standards all round from some on the Government Benches.

[Michael Gove]

rose—

[Chris Stephens]

Perhaps this is a good time to accept an intervention from the right hon. Gentleman.

[Michael Gove]

Speaking as someone who was involved in a successful referendum campaign, may I point out that, had a 40% threshold been required, I am absolutely certain that people would have been more than enthusiastic enough to vote? However, we recognise that, with the economy of effort that is appropriate to the task in hand, we got just enough votes to win.

[Chris Stephens]

I remember the right hon. Gentleman’s ashen-faced performance at the press conference after the referendum result. He will be aware that Scotland was trapped into a 40% vote in an earlier referendum, which caused great upset and anger at the time.

[Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

As a slightly more serious riposte to the point being made, surely there is a distinction? Union membership is generally a voluntary matter, but being on an electoral register is compulsory. Therefore, the 40% threshold for union members is somewhat different from thresholds for other elections.

[Chris Stephens]

I do not accept that distinction, because it is not quite compulsory—we are not in Australia, where everyone has to register and everyone has to vote. I do not accept the distinction, because an industrial action ballot with a 49% turnout could have wider support than one where turnout is over 50%, but the result is just a narrow win. It makes no sense in those circumstances to apply a threshold.

The difficulty we have on the Opposition Benches is that we are seeking assurances from the Government on workers’ rights as we exit the EU. These regulations do not fill those of us in the Opposition with confidence that workers’ rights will be safeguarded as we exit the European Union. There are a number of other difficulties, one of which relates to the question I asked the Minister.

[Adam Afriyie]

I am not sure I follow the hon. Gentleman’s point. Is he saying that the Trade Union Act 2016 was against European legislation? That is what he seems to be implying.

[Chris Stephens]

No, the point is the trend of the Government, who say one thing and do completely another thing. I remember writing an article in the Morning Star, with which the hon. Gentleman may be familiar, in which I described being in this place and the arguments being presented by the Government as “bizarre”, “surreal” and “Orwellian”, and I think we have seen evidence of that today. This is a general problem, because the Government are suggesting that they wish to protect workers’ rights, but what we see with the Trade Union Act 2016 and now these regulations is an entirely different matter.

[Stella Creasy]

I am not a regular reader of the Morning Star, because I prefer fact to fiction. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that as Government Members have already suggested that they would like to extend the 40% threshold to other industries but cannot clarify what the bargaining units might be, or whether they have considered other proportionate ways to resolve industrial disputes so that people’s rights are not curtailed, and given that we have no guarantees that any of the legislation on employment rights that they claim they will bring back from Europe will remain in UK legislation, this is a very worrying time for working people? That is why these regulations should be treated with extreme caution.

[Chris Stephens]

I agree. The point is well made, and there is a distinction that must be made clear. The Government always seem confused in these debates, and about trade unionism in general, because they seem to think that after a ballot result is announced, whether the turnout is low or not, trade union activists, including full-time officials, develop Jedi-like powers to persuade other workers. It is as if the trade union officials wave a hand and say, “This is the strike you are looking for.” That is not what happens in trade union organised workplaces; I can say that as someone who was a trade union activist for 20 years before my election.

[Neil Gray]

Following on from the point made by the hon. Member for Windsor about days lost to strike action in these areas, although he used the word “alarming”, my understanding is that those figures have improved. Given my hon. Friend’s extensive experience in this area, does he think that these regulations will go any way towards improving workplace relations between trade unions and employers?

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[Chris Stephens]

I, too, was surprised to hear that the statistic for the number of days lost, which has been as low as it is for a long time, was “alarming”. That was a rather strange comment to make. There is a real sense that these thresholds will undermine constructive employment relations because trade unions will need to spend time ensuring that they meet these regressive regulations rather than entering into constructive discussions. There does not seem to be any incentive for employers to seek early resolution of a dispute.

Another concern I have relates to the question I asked the Minister: who exactly is covered by the regulations? For example, as I said earlier there are workers in what have now been described as “important public services” who have multiple duties, different role profiles or different job descriptions. Some will have administrative duties. Will admin workers in the ambulance service, for example, be covered by the regulations? What about admin support in the Border Force? It would be handy to know that.

Another concern is about the discrimination aspect of the regulations and their disproportionate effect on women workers. The figures presented to me suggest that more than 70% of workers in what have been classified as “important public services” are women. There seems to be a complete disregard for that, and while I would certainly like to see the equality impact work done on these regulations, there is no question in my mind but that they have a discriminatory effect on women workers.

I have two final concerns. First, there are other regulations and statutory instruments that we have not yet considered, and the first concerns e-balloting. As the Minister announced yesterday, the e-balloting consultation ends in December but the Government want to push through this statutory instrument from 1 March. We went through the process on the Trade Union Act, and as someone who led for the Scottish National party right from the start, it was clear to me that the Government accepted, I thought in good faith, Lords amendments that made it quite clear that e-balloting had to be considered before we considered introducing thresholds. We need to discuss at the same time how we can make it easier for trade union members to participate in ballots, particularly industrial action ballots, if we are going to meet thresholds. If e-balloting were introduced or—I would like to go further—secure workplace balloting, which is allowed for trade union recognition ballots, these thresholds would be met every time; there would not be a concern about that. Our concern is that under the current Trade Union Act, it is a postal ballot only. The number of post offices and post boxes has reduced sharply in the past five years, making it difficult for trade union members to participate in a ballot.

My last concern is that the Government have yet to introduce a statutory instrument on the check-off arrangements, which will equally impact on these ballot mechanisms. The trade unions will now be asked to pay a proportion for the check-off arrangements, and it will take a considerable time for them to meet that regulation.

My final point is that the Minister confirmed that, at the time, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), the then Minister for Skills, had discussions with the devolved Administrations. I hope that the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire has passed on my good wishes to the former Minister for Skills for a speedy recovery. There should really have been discussions with the devolved Administrations since then about the impact of these statutory instruments on the devolved services that they concern. I have very deep concerns about the Government’s direction of travel. It is a pity that they rushed through the statutory instruments that were discussed yesterday and will be considered in the Chamber later today, when so many questions are outstanding. I will therefore vote against these regulations today.

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[Stephen Timms]

I hope the hon. Gentleman also shares a passion that many in the House have for freedom and for being reluctant to legislate to curtail people’s freedoms and rights. As parliamentarians we are obliged to protect the rights of individuals and to be extremely reluctant to legislate to reduce and curtail those rights. Sadly, that is exactly what we are being encouraged to do this afternoon.

[Chris Stephens]

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that in his experience, after a ballot result has been provided a trade union will then make an assessment of the likelihood of successful industrial action? On occasion, for ballots with low turnouts, trade unions have decided not to proceed further.

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; that is the normal practice. When opening the debate for the Opposition, my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough gave the example of the Royal College of Midwives. I think I heard her correctly when she said that it recently had its first strike since its creation in 1880-something. Why on earth are we legislating to make it harder for them to strike in future? Unless we believe a huge zeal for industrial action that we have not seen in the past is about to hit us, why on earth are we legislating? I am genuinely puzzled.

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[Gill Furniss]

No, I will not. What most people want is meaningful negotiations, where they can get issues resolved, and that is what is wanted by the management of most organisations, and required by the workforce. We do not have workforces crying to go out on strike; we have workers who want to be respected, who have good working conditions and are not at the mercy of zero-hour contracts or having to have three jobs at once just to support themselves. If we provide good working arrangements for people that would eradicate strikes, would it not? However, there must always be a fundamental right to withhold one’s labour. That is the right of everyone wherever they are from.

[Chris Stephens]

I agree with everything that the shadow Minister has said. Can she also confirm that trade unions play a vital welfare role in the workplace? For example, my trade union, Unison, has a welfare fund that has helped many low-paid workers across the UK.

[Gill Furniss]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I was a health and safety representative for many years, and it is a vital role to work alongside management to point out any hazards and actually prevent accidents from happening in the workplace, which could be costly to any organisation in compensation.

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[Margot James]

I thank hon. Members for their contributions. Positive industrial relations are the backbone of a productive economy, and the Government believe that trade unions can play a constructive role in maintaining such relations. The Government are equally clear that modernising reforms were required to ensure that strikes only happen as a result of a clear, positive decision. The regulations implement the provisions of the Trade Union Act in relation to the 40% threshold alone. A number of specific points have been raised, which I will go through as quickly as I can. First, the shadow Minister mentioned e-balloting. That review, under the chairmanship of Sir Ken Knight, should be published by December this year. I trust that the hon. Lady, bearing in mind that these provisions will not be implemented until 1 March, will not think that that is too long. In answer to the right hon. Member for East Ham, the last strike to take place in Border Force was in October 2014.

The advice that the Government have is that the provisions are not inconsistent with our international obligations under the European convention on human rights and the International Labour Organisation. That is because they do not undermine the right to strike, but merely redress the balance of rights between people taking industrial action and the public who depend on those vital services.

The hon. Member for Glasgow South West raised the issue of a grey area in some sectors where jobs are covered by these provisions. The alternative would be to take a more blanket approach, automatically including all workers in each of these three sectors, irrespective of the impact of their work on the public, to which Opposition Members would probably object even more. The Government have consulted on the distinctions between different groups of workers in this context and have provided guidance, which I trust unions and employers will find useful.

I cited in my opening remarks a strike that would have been averted had this legislation been in place—the strike by health unions in 2014. If the right hon. Member for East Ham wants another example, I draw his attention to a strike by the NUT in 2014 that led to the closure of 3,000 schools. That strike cost children their education and disrupted the lives of many parents on a turnout of just 27%, with the support of just 22% of those eligible to vote. I have explained that the purpose of the 40% ballot threshold is to rebalance the ability of union members in the three sectors under discussion to strike with the interests of the general public, non-striking workers and employers.

The pressing social needs we want to address in these regulations are to ensure the maintenance of public safety and security and the protection of life. Strike action in important public services in the health, border security and fire sectors can have a significant impact on those social needs. The regulations support the Government’s commitment to delivering a modernised industrial relations framework, better to support an effective and collaborative approach to resolving industrial disputes. I believe they are fair and appropriate, and I commend them to the Committee.

[Chris Stephens]

rose—

[The Chair]

Order. The Minister’s speech does not have to be the last one, so if the hon. Gentleman is standing in order to speak, he may.

[Chris Stephens]

The Minister has not covered a number of points. I hope she will do so, because it is important she is given that opportunity prior to a Division.

I ask the Minister to check the records. I am clear that the House of Lords passed amendments on e-balloting in direct response to the Government’s wish to implement thresholds. Thresholds seem to be being implemented seven or eight months before we even know the outcome of the review on e-balloting. The Minister needs to explain why that is the case. Many Opposition Members have new fears that e-balloting will fall as a result. I hope she will also reflect on the fact that there has been no discussion with the devolved Administrations since the Trade Union Act was passed. Finally, I say to her that there is one alternative to introducing blanket bans to cover other workers: not doing this at all.

[The Chair]

Minister, do you wish to reply?