Draft Important Public Services (Health) Regulations 2017 Draft Important Public Services (Border Security) Regulations 2017 Draft Important Public Services (Fire) Regulations 2017

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2017 General Committees

[Margot James]

I agree strongly with my right hon. Friend.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

Of course, it was a Labour Government who presided over the reduction that my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow drew attention to. Will the Minister tell us when was the last time that there was industrial action in the Border Force?

[Margot James]

I am afraid I cannot tell the right hon. Gentleman that, but I will certainly seek out that information.

[Stephen Timms]

The Minister certainly has not convinced me that these regulations are necessary. I am not aware of industrial action in the Border Force, and I wonder whether there is a real problem here or whether these regulations are unnecessary.

[Margot James]

I do not know whether that indicates that the right hon. Gentleman sees the need for the regulations for the health service and fire workers—perhaps he does, and to that extent I am encouraged. I will get the information about the Border Force for him, but the regulations were introduced in recognition of the very serious nature of any threat of industrial action in the border services and make provisions as a preventive measure, at the very least.

Surveys taken during the consultation indicate that the public agree with our proposals. There was, of course, a manifesto commitment.

[Stephen Timms]

Will the Minister give way?

[Margot James]

I will not give way for a third time. I will make some progress.

Before I conclude, I would like to address the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s comments on the regulations. In relation to the three regulations on the 40% threshold, the Committee pointed out that the Government committed to issue guidance to clarify which workers will be captured by each of the important public services listed in order to assist unions and employers when they are assessing how a ballot should be conducted. Its view was that the need for such guidance raises a question about whether the regulations are sufficiently clear and understandable by those affected. Furthermore, it regretted the fact that the Government failed to publish that guidance in early December when we laid the draft regulations before Parliament.

I am grateful for the Committee’s scrutiny, and I can confirm that the Government have now published guidance to provide advice to unions on applying the 40% threshold in practice and on examples of workers who will be covered by each of the regulations. In drafting the guidance, we engaged with key stakeholders affected by the provisions to understand how the guidance can be most helpful. We listened carefully to their views and reflected them in the guidance. The Government believe that the regulations are proportionate, and I commend them to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms]

I start by associating myself strongly with the case my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough made against the regulations and agreeing with many of the points that have just been made by the spokesman for the Scottish National party. It is absolutely right that it is unwise to legislate in this area, encroaching on rights at work. It is certainly not a good idea to be doing so in the absence of any compelling case for why such legislation is needed. That is the aspect of this debate that I want to open up a little in my brief remarks. The Minister, when I asked her, could not tell us whether there had ever been industrial action in the Border Agency. I hope that by the time she stands up again, she will be able to tell us whether there has or not.

I am certainly aware of occasions, although not many, when there has been industrial action in the fire service and in the national health service. We have not been told how many such instances in the fire service and the health service would have been avoided if this legislation was on the statute book at the time. The case that the Minister made to the Committee sounded to me like, “It would be a good idea to legislate to avoid a possible problem one day in the future.” We certainly have not been given any information to explain that this is a current problem that needs to be addressed. I hope, if that is the Minister’s view—if there is a current problem that needs to be addressed—that she can tell us when she winds up the extent of that problem, how many instances there have been over the past year, two years, three years or whatever information she has available, and how many of those instances would have been avoided if this legislation had been on the statute book.

The great danger here—my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough made this point in opening for the Opposition—is that by legislating in this area one does not make industrial relations better, one makes them worse. We are often told that there is a natural Conservative reticence about legislation unless there is a very strong case for legislating. That reticence has not been apparent in this instance: we have not been told that there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed here, yet the Government are rushing in with hobnailed boots to introduce legislation.

From what we have heard so far, I do not think the Committee has any basis for believing that the legislation will tackle a serious problem, or make that problem less serious than it currently is. I find it difficult to see how Committee members from any party could support legislation in this area without a compelling case for introducing it. I hope that the natural Conservative tendency of reluctance to legislate that we often hear about will apply in this case as in so many others.

[Adam Afriyie]

I am listening closely to the right hon. Gentleman. Conservatives also have a great passion for democracy. It seems to me that this is not only about a worker’s right to withhold their labour; it is about a worker’s right to go to work and not be sacked if a small minority from a union have voted for a strike.

[Stephen Timms]

I hope the hon. Gentleman also shares a passion that many in the House have for freedom and for being reluctant to legislate to curtail people’s freedoms and rights. As parliamentarians we are obliged to protect the rights of individuals and to be extremely reluctant to legislate to reduce and curtail those rights. Sadly, that is exactly what we are being encouraged to do this afternoon.

[Chris Stephens]

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that in his experience, after a ballot result has been provided a trade union will then make an assessment of the likelihood of successful industrial action? On occasion, for ballots with low turnouts, trade unions have decided not to proceed further.

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; that is the normal practice. When opening the debate for the Opposition, my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough gave the example of the Royal College of Midwives. I think I heard her correctly when she said that it recently had its first strike since its creation in 1880-something. Why on earth are we legislating to make it harder for them to strike in future? Unless we believe a huge zeal for industrial action that we have not seen in the past is about to hit us, why on earth are we legislating? I am genuinely puzzled.

[Stella Creasy]

I am in the odd position in which I agree with the evidence put forward by the former Education Secretary, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath. He said that there has been a reduction in the number of strike days—although that is not because the legislation was introduced. One of the problems with the debate is that it almost sounds as though striking is the only things that unions do. Good employment relations help good organisations to thrive. Legislation such as this risks that relationship, which helps with so many issues, whether changes in the workplace or helping people with learning and development, being lost in the fog of this almost provocative attitude from the Government in saying that all trade unions want is to strike.

[Stephen Timms]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right; that is exactly the danger that we face here. If there is evidence of a serious problem, or of x incidents of industrial action over the past three or five years that would have been avoided if the legislation had been on the statute book, will the Minister tell us what it is? If there is no such evidence, I hope the Committee will echo the natural reluctance to legislate often urged by Government Members and vote the regulation down.