Scotland Bill
Cathy Jamieson Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Mr Donohoe
I am grateful for the intervention, but I disagree with the idea of compulsory voting and fines. I have been to Australia to examine the system, and it just does not work as it should, so I would not advocate it. In Africa, however, people queue for weeks before an election to cast their vote, and we should have some of that attitude in this country. I do not think we will ever get it unless we reconnect with the public, and certainly not if we continue to have list Members north of the border.
That brings me neatly to new clause 2. If there is to be no change to the voting system, we have to consider the role of the list Members in the Scottish Parliament. We must seriously consider withdrawing the funding that is currently available to them, which allows them to come into constituencies to cherry-pick and cause mayhem.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
Does my hon. Friend share my concern, which has been a consistent concern in Scotland, that at various times list Members appear to have promoted themselves as constituency Members? Does he agree that that must be tackled as a matter of priority? Does he further understand that in the spirit of the Scottish Parliament rules, it was anticipated that regional list Members would notify constituency Members whenever they took up casework? In my almost 12 years as an MSP, it was very rare—
The Chairman
Order. I know that this debate is very important, but may we have shorter interventions?
Mr Donohoe
There is no one in the House who knows the system north of the border better than my hon. Friend, because she was an MSP, and still is until, I think, the 24th of this month.
Mr Donohoe
No, I already had the awkward cases and knew all about them. Every single Member in this place—even those who came in last year—will be well aware of the cases that they would like to palm off. It might be that we could find a role for those list Members and send them all over the UK to take up these awkward cases. I might be one of those who would advocate that—but not today, because we are here to debate new clauses 1 and 2.
My final point concerns what happens when a list Member dies in office. Of course, that is unfair on the individual, although they would no longer worry about it; but there is also an unfairness in the system, as we have seen—believe it or not—in Ayrshire: a Member of the Scottish Parliament resigned and a member of the constituency party was put in their place, but that Labour member was not elected and a Tory took their place. Had it been a list Member who resigned, however, under the list system the next person on the list would have been appointed as a Member of the Scottish Parliament.
Cathy Jamieson
To clarify, does my hon. Friend agree that it makes no sense that everything else in the Scottish Parliament is done by proportionality and d’Hondt? This is the one area where that does not seem to apply.
Mr Donohoe
That is a discussion for another day, but it is a very pertinent point—and one that a lot of people do not understand. A lot of people do not understand this crazy list system. As I have said, if a constituency Member resigns, a by-election is triggered, and whatever happens the democratic process takes place. However, if a list Member dies, retires or resigns, they are replaced by somebody on the list, which is absolutely outrageous. The Labour party is concerned to have a gender balance, but this system destroys that possibility.
Mark Lazarowicz
Indeed. One thing that my hon. Friend and I share on this issue is consistency. He has been consistent in his opposition to PR; I have been consistent in my support for it, so at least we share something in this debate, unlike the Liberal Democrats.
No party can assume that it knows what the vote will be in five, 10, 15 or 20 years’ time, but the attraction—as my hon. Friends and others see it—of first past the post might diminish dramatically if, let us say, the Scottish National party at some stage got 35% of the votes in the Scottish parliamentary elections under that system. That could quite easily give it an absolute majority of seats, which no doubt the SNP would claim as a mandate for independence. Those who suggest that first past the post will always benefit Labour, or any other party, are making a serious mistake if they maintain that position.
Cathy Jamieson
So far the debate seems to have centred on what is best for the political parties. Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the problems with the voting system we now have for local government, for example, is that people feel that they have lost the direct link with their elected representative? They prefer a system in which there is certainty; they know who to go to and do not feel that they are being passed from pillar to post.
Mark Lazarowicz
I agree. That is one reason why I do not support STV for the Scottish Parliament or local government, and I will come on to that point as it relates to the Scottish Parliament in a moment.
We should bear in mind some of the arguments made in 1997—those of us who have been around for some time can remember them—on why it was important that there should be a vote on the system of PR in the referendum on the Scottish Parliament, rather than putting a first-past-the-post system to voters. That is precisely because it was recognised, even by some people who were hostile to or sceptical about PR, that if the electors had been offered a choice of a Scottish Parliament with a first-past-the-post system, some might have voted against it because they would be concerned that one party in one part of the country might at some future stage dominate the Parliament, which would have undermined support for the yes vote in the 1997 referendum.
David Mundell
The hon. Gentleman has proposed a very specific change to the electoral system for the Scottish Parliament. It would mean that two Members would be elected from each constituency other than the three constituencies that have been identified. Although it seems to suggest that everyone would have two votes in those three constituencies, the new clause does not appear to show what would happen to the second of their votes. He has set out his intentions in this debate, but the provisions are technically defective. However, I advise him, and the Opposition Members who have expressed clear views about how they would change the electoral system for the Scottish Parliament, to take part in any review that is forthcoming on the nature of that electoral system. That is one basis on which the Government reject the new clauses.
Cathy Jamieson
I am listening to the Minister with interest. Is he actually offering that very review that he is talking about? If so, when will it take place?
David Mundell
The date of the next Scottish Parliament election has changed as a result of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, and the Government have indicated that a review of the implications for the Scottish Parliament will be required. A review of the voting system for the Scottish Parliament elections could form part of a wider review of issues relating to the Scottish Parliament.
Scotland Bill
Cathy Jamieson Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
I welcome you to the Committee, Ms Primarolo. I know how much you appreciate the convivial nature of Scottish debates, and I hope that we will do our best to behave ourselves today and to conduct these proceedings in a civil manner.
On Second Reading, we made it clear that it was our intention to improve and strengthen the Bill. I concede that, over the past few weeks, significant progress has been made in that direction. We have already had the report from the Scottish Parliament’s Bill Committee, which made a number of useful and helpful recommendations, especially those that apply to the non-fiscal parts of the Bill. I welcome those recommendations. It is perhaps unfortunate, however, that some of them cannot be properly debated because of where we are in the process. The Scottish Parliament has not even passed its legislative consent motion, yet we are here in Committee today discussing the Scotland Bill, line by line and clause by clause.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
Notwithstanding all that, and the fact that there is a huge amount of discussion still to be had, will the hon. Gentleman address the amendment? Does he not agree that it is absolutely right that the count in all Scottish parliamentary elections should take place immediately, overnight?
Pete Wishart
I have no dispute whatever with the hon. Lady about that; of course the count should take place as soon as possible—[Interruption.] If she will allow me, I must point out that we are debating clause 1. She needs to check what we are discussing just now.
We have made progress, but it is unfortunate that we are unable to debate certain amendments that could have been tabled on the back of what was proposed by the parliamentary Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament. We are at a different stage in the process. The legislative consent motion has not been passed, yet we are here today scrutinising the Bill in detail in Committee without having access to that important work.
David Mundell
The Government are looking forward to the debate in the Scottish Parliament later this week when it will consider the legislative consent motion coming forward from the Bill Committee. It will be very interesting to see how the SNP votes in that debate.
Clause 1 transfers to Scottish Ministers certain Executive functions relating to the administration of Scottish Parliament elections that are currently the responsibility of the Secretary of State. Members will wish to note that the Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament accepted this provision in its report on the Bill. However, as has been mentioned, the report also asked for consideration of a number of related issues such as the procedure for filling any regional seat vacancy during the life of a Parliament, the rules relating to disqualification, and reciprocal consultation. I wish to reaffirm that the written statement from the Secretary of State makes clear our commitment carefully to consider those recommendations, including those relating to this clause. The Scottish Parliament will vote on the Bill on Thursday, and we await the outcome of that vote.
The clause will enable Scottish Ministers to make general provision by order for the conduct and administration of elections to Holyrood, subject only to some necessary constraints. This power includes making provision about supply or otherwise dealing with the electoral register, the combination of Scottish Parliament elections with other elections falling within the legislative competence of the Parliament, and limitation of candidates’ election expenses. However, some elements of the powers will remain the function of the Secretary of State—that is, the franchise and the power to combine Scottish Parliament elections with other reserved elections. That will ensure that issues of constitutional importance continue to be dealt with by the UK Parliament. The Scotland Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament recognised and accepted the continued reservation of those matters.
Amendment 10, as the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West said, would require Scottish Ministers’ first conduct order under the new powers to include provision requiring returning officers to start the count at Scottish Parliament elections within four hours of the close of the poll, or to publish a statement explaining why they were unable to do so. It is important to clarify at this point that the amendment would not apply to the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections.
I recognise the strength of feeling on this issue, which has been set out eloquently by the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) and my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). The drama and excitement of election night and the wish to know the election result as soon as possible are vital parts of our political heritage. I want returning officers to listen to what has been said in this debate. As hon. Members who represent Scottish constituencies know, Mary Pitcaithly, the chairman of the Electoral Management Board for Scotland, will be available to Scottish MPs to discuss the arrangements for the forthcoming Scottish elections at a meeting at the Scotland Office later this week. I am sure that the point about overnight counts will again be forcefully made.
In a recent response to the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West, I suggested that he and his colleagues should lobby for overnight counts. I had noticed that the counts in Conservative-led council areas such as Dumfries and Galloway, Scottish Borders and South Ayrshire were scheduled to be overnight counts, and that Labour predominated in the council areas that were on the list of counts scheduled to happen the following day. I therefore thought that he might be able to bring more influence to bear than I in those areas.
Cathy Jamieson
I hear what the Minister is saying, but does he not agree that the best way to ensure that overnight counts take place is to pass the amendment and put it in the Bill, rather than simply exhorting to people and leaving the discretion to them?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady cannot have heard me say that the amendment would not apply to the 2011 election. I am surprised that she, of all people, takes the view that when we are devolving powers to the Scottish Parliament on this matter, we should curtail them. Once the powers have been devolved, it will be perfectly possible for the Scottish Parliament to take account of the representations that have been made from certain quarters, where there is clearly an equally strong feeling about overnight counts. Passing this amendment would be contrary to the spirit of devolving responsibility for these matters to the Scottish Parliament. I certainly hope that we will not see support from the Scottish National party for such curtailment of a newly devolved power.
David Mundell
The hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) tempts me to answer that it is a secret, but it is not. Rather, it is part of the full legislative scrutiny of the Bill. As I suggested earlier, and as the Secretary of State’s written ministerial statement suggested, we take the issues raised by the Committee, and the specific issues raised in relation to the clause, very seriously.
Cathy Jamieson
It might be helpful for those who are not au fait with all the technicalities if the Minister confirms that these specific clauses are not dealt with in the legislative consent motion that will be debated in the Scottish Parliament on Thursday, and that a further LCM will be required.
David Mundell
That is a helpful intervention, because the LCM that will come before the Scottish Parliament this week relates to the Bill as published, and as scrutinised by that Parliament’s Committee—and also by this House. The LCM the Committee promotes suggests that if there are significant changes to the Bill—and, of course, the proposed amendments to section 57(2) of the 1998 Act would be significant—there would be another legislative consent process with the Scottish Parliament. The Government are clear in that regard. Also, as I understand it, the Scottish Government do not support the LCM promoted by the Committee.
Pete Wishart
I am about to come to that. Let me explain first what we are trying to achieve with the amendment, and I will then deal with the hon. Gentleman’s wider point. He may intervene again if he feels that he is not getting a satisfactory response.
Our amendment deletes a small section that states that power over the control of “specially dangerous” weapons remains with the Secretary of State. It ensures that the Scottish Parliament will have the power to legislate for all air weapons, including the “specially dangerous” weapons that require a firearms certificate. The Bill as it stands includes a power for the Secretary of State to designate “specially dangerous” air weapons, which would then fall under the reserved regime that applies to all other firearms. In that case, the power would lie with the UK Government and Ministers and would not be subject to any approval from Scottish Ministers or the Scottish Parliament.
We therefore propose that the relevant power be exercised with the consent of the Scottish Parliament, even if it is not transferred. We believe that this is important because there are different and distinct issues relating to firearms in Scotland. I do not want to mention specifically all the tragedies that have taken place. We have only to recall Dunblane several years ago to recognise the very real issues that we have in Scotland involving firearms. It would be much more sensible for all firearms to be under one control in one central point. Scottish police forces have taken great interest in our plea and they would be interested in developing and exercising it.
We want to avoid complication. Our amendment would devolve legislative competence for all air weapons to the Scottish Parliament. I intend to press the amendment to a Division because it is important. This is one of the few opportunities that we will get to improve the Bill significantly and ensure that all weapons are included in it. It is a small measure designed to improve the Bill, as we said we would, and I urge the entire Committee to support it.
Cathy Jamieson
I welcome the opportunity to make a contribution to this part of the debate. I hope it will be one based on the experience of representing an area that has had its fair share of difficulties with airguns, and of four years as the Justice Minister in Scotland, including at the time of the incident that has been referred to when a toddler lost his life in the east end of Glasgow as a result of an air weapon. Far from responding to any media frenzy, I hope that I was able as a politician to respond to the real tragedy for people in the local community, not least the child’s parents, who witnessed the event and had to deal with the consequences.
At that point, when there were demands for an immediate, all-out ban on air weapons, I took the view that we should take a considered approach that looked at the evidence and brought together the police and other organisations. At that stage I met a number of those organisations. I believed that it was best to deal with the situation not through a piecemeal approach, but by working with the UK Government to secure changes on sentencing and tightening the legislation, which we did, and with a view to looking at how a licensing regime could operate in Scotland in future. I welcome the clause that will give the Scottish Parliament the opportunity to do something about this.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Does the hon. Lady share my experience that the abuse of air weapons often involves not only the cases that make the newspapers, but the distressing circumstances of much-loved family pets being injured or killed when shot at? Those stories never make the headlines, but they nevertheless cause great distress in communities.
Cathy Jamieson
I absolutely agree. Of course, those are the types of incidents that local newspapers report far more regularly than national newspapers.
Information about the incident in Auchinleck quickly got into the public domain, some of which was not absolutely accurate. A number of school pupils were injured, albeit by what the hon. Member for The Cotswolds described as a toy BB gun—I have more to say on that in a moment—and required hospital treatment, so I hope that he is not suggesting that it is not necessary to have a serious look at how that gun got into the hands of the people who used it, what they were doing with it and why they became involved in such an incident. To be honest, I recognise where he is coming from in relation to his sporting and shooting interests, but I find it difficult to understand in any event why anyone living in an urban environment would require an air weapon in their home. It is time we looked at the issue, and I hope that that is something a licensing or other regime in Scotland could deal with.
I want to say something about firearms in general. I accept many of the points made by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), but I do not believe that at this stage we require responsibility for the whole range of firearms legislation to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. However, I do think that it is incumbent on the UK Government—perhaps the Minister will indicate what discussions he will have or has had with Home Office colleagues—to ensure that the provisions of the 1968 Act still stand the test of time. The worst possible thing that could happen is that we devolve something and discover subsequently that we will have to revisit it, for example if the definition of what constitutes an airgun is no longer seen to meet the needs of the legislation we are devolving.
I want to say something on BB guns, because I know that in many instances they are the weapons—I use the word “weapons” rather than “toys” because of the damage they can inflict—that cause exactly the problems that the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) identified. I also believe that there is a gap in the legislation, because those weapons appear to be easily available, particularly to children and young people. The fact that they are not covered by legislation sends entirely the wrong message. I would be interested to hear whether the Minister will have discussions with his Home Office colleagues to take that forward.
I appreciate that other Members want to comment in the debate and so do not intend to speak for much longer. I feel that the time is right, and I have given the matter careful consideration because my initial response when Justice Minister, as I have said, was that we should not legislate or press for legislation in haste. It is four years since that time, and considerably longer since the incident in Easterhouse, so no one could accuse us of legislating in haste when we take these measures forward.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
The hon. Lady is making a cogent and reasonable case, and I am interested to hear what she has to say as a former Justice Minister. In the Andrew Morton case, as I said in my contribution, Mark Bonini was sentenced to life imprisonment, so what does she think it is about the current laws that is not working and needs to be modified?
Cathy Jamieson
I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but I say to him gently that the people of Easterhouse, and perhaps people more widely in Scotland, feel that legislation that would prevent someone like that from having an air weapon in their home in the middle of Easterhouse would be of assistance. That is why there is strong support in Scotland for a ban on air weapons. That is not the province of any particularly political party, but something that has united people across political organisations and local communities.
I said that it is not about legislating in haste. I believe that the time has come to look at how we can ensure that no other family goes through the same trauma as did the family in Easterhouse, but we will do that by having workable legislation. I end on a note of caution, because there are a number of areas where I think a great deal of further work needs to be done to ensure, for example, that the cross-border issues are manageable. We need to look at that in detail. It is entirely possible to look at exemptions for sporting activity, and I know from my previous experience in the Scottish Parliament that fruitful discussions were held, and I am sure continue to be held, on the transport and use of guns for sporting activities. This should not be the end of the matter. If the proposal is included and the Bill passed, it will be a stepping stone on a journey to ensure that, wherever possible, we avoid such incidents as have been described and are able to look at how best the existing firearms legislation throughout, importantly, the United Kingdom can be strengthened. In particular, I make the plea, which I shall repeat when the review reports, for the careful consideration of including in legislation BB guns and weapons like that to ensure that they do not fall into the wrong hands.
Mrs McGuire
I am delighted to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson). For those colleagues who are not aware of her work as a Justice Minister, I hope that they will see what she managed to do when she held that difficult position and airguns became a major issue in Scotland. I acknowledge what she did.
I fear that the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), for whom many in the House have great respect, has taken a big hit tonight, because in prosecuting his case he fails to understand that the issue of air weapons is slightly different in Scotland. That is why we feel it important to allow the Scottish Parliament to regulate air weapons in Scotland. I, like the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), have a large rural constituency, and I have had no correspondence—letters or e-mails— at all on the issue, yet many in my constituency see air weapons as part of an introduction to country sports, and I fully recognise that.
I fear also that the hon. Member for The Cotswolds anticipates what a Scottish Parliament might do with such powers, but he has to recognise that it has Members with urban constituencies and many with rural constituencies, and they will take into account the balances that have to be struck to ensure that they do not undermine a way of life or an activity that is important to many communities in Scotland.
When the legislation banning handguns was passed in 1997, one argument was that it would undermine sporting activity. That has not happened, because in that legislation we ensured that there was a tight regime and that any sporting activity was conducted in a safe context. That is what we are asking for in the Bill before us, because the debate has thrown up some issues that could cause confusion if they are not attended to properly.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun that we need to be clear about what we are doing in passing this element of the Bill. Indeed, on Second Reading, I asked the Minister whether he had consulted his colleagues in the Home Office to ensure that we had the definitions right and did not allow some air weapons to fall outside the legislation. I should still be interested to know what discussions he or his departmental colleagues have had with the Home Office to ensure that we get the definitions right.
I fully support the probing amendments that my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) has tabled, because the issue is not just about passing this element of the Bill, but about instilling in the House the confidence that, in passing the legislation, we have in place all the other elements that are required to make it an effective piece of devolution, while maintaining safety both north and south of the border and not allowing for any confusion, which might exist if we do not get the legislation right for those people who, as the Minister will know, cross the border regularly. I hope that he will deal with the specific issues that have been raised. This is an issue not of principle, but of detail, and I hope that he will be able to give us some assurances this evening.
David Mundell
I certainly would not want the Committee to be misled by anything that I said. I referred to the paragraphs in the Scotland Bill Committee report, where it is clear that the Committee formed the view that it did. It is also clear that the Scottish Government have come forward with an LCM that supports this clause as it stands.
Clause 11 devolves a power to the Scottish Parliament in relation to the regulation of air weapons. This would enable the Scottish Parliament to legislate, if it wished, to create a separate regulatory regime for air weapons in Scotland. Members will wish to note that, as I said, the Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament accepted the provision, and we wait to see the outcome of the debate on its LCM and the LCM proposed by the Scottish Government.
After careful consideration, the Calman commission concluded that firearms law should not be devolved in full. It is generally acknowledged that the UK already has some of the toughest firearm controls in the world and that the current unified regime represents the best way of tackling the problems that exist in relation to armed crime. The commission did recommend devolving power over a specific category—air weapons. The Government agree with this recommendation. Air weapons are the type of guns most often involved in firearms offences, and given the nature of their misuse most frequently to cause criminal damage, as we have heard, they are best controlled at the level closest to those affected. Reference was made to the specifics of the recent incident in Auchinleck, which demonstrated and reaffirmed the continuing concern in Scotland about the use of air weapons.
Cathy Jamieson
Given the Minister’s comments, will he make it clear for the record that if the clause goes through and the Bill is passed, a future Scottish Parliament could, if it wished, ban air weapons completely?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady makes an important point that also relates to the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown). In fact, passing the clause will not in itself ban air weapons of the category defined in Scotland. That is a point that I want to make to my hon. Friend.
Cathy Jamieson
I appreciate that, but the point I was trying to get at, although perhaps I did not make myself clear enough, was whether, if the Bill is passed, the Scottish Parliament could enact a complete ban on air weapons if it chose to do so.
David Mundell
The Scottish Parliament will be able to enact a complete ban on air weapons that fall within the definition. The important point for colleagues such as my hon. Friend is that those who do not agree with that course of action will be able to argue their case in the Scottish Parliament. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) set out a strong case on the basis of her considerable experience, respected views and strong beliefs. I felt that my hon. Friend also set out a strong view, although Opposition Members and indeed Members of my party in the Scottish Parliament might not subscribe to it. It is important that people who hold such views move the argument on to the Scottish Parliament if the clause is agreed to, because that is the appropriate place for the debate to take place.
David Mundell
I will come on to that later in my remarks. We are satisfied that the definition, as set out in this legislation, is appropriate to deal with the issues raised by the Calman commission.
Cathy Jamieson
Given my concern about BB guns, will the Minister answer the question that I posed about whether he has had any discussions with the Home Office on that matter? Is there a way to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can deal with that problem?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady has just under three weeks to raise that issue in the Scottish Parliament in her capacity as a Member of that Parliament. On a UK basis, I am happy to undertake to raise with the Home Secretary the concerns that she has set out this evening.
Scotland Bill
Cathy Jamieson Excerpts(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I am particularly pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate. As the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) said, this is Burns week, when people across the world celebrate their Scottish roots. I always enjoy this time of year because people are asking me for advice on how to pronounce particular Scots words, rather than gently—or perhaps not so gently—mocking my native Ayrshire accent. Some of my Scottish Parliament staff have found the transition to Westminster slightly more difficult. At one point, my diary secretary had to explain what was meant by the fact that my diary was “stappit” and I was therefore unable to make a particular event. For the benefit of the Hansard reporters and any translators, I should say that “stappit” simply means very full.
In the past week, the new Burns museum opened in Alloway, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne), and that superb new venue hosted the Burns humanitarian award ceremony, with Linda Norgrove being a very worthy posthumous winner. With due deference to my hon. Friends the Members for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock and for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown), we Mauchline residents are fond of saying that although Robert Burns was born in Alloway and died in Dumfries, he lived in our village. It was therefore a pleasure to join the Mauchline Burns club to lay a wreath at the Burns national memorial in Mauchline on Burns day this week.
I reassure you that I am not about to continue a treatise on Robert Burns, Mr Deputy Speaker, as there will be other opportunities for that. However, the references to him are relevant, because Burns was intensely concerned about Scotland and the Scottish people and, despite what some SNP Members might claim, not from a narrow nationalist perspective. Burns was an internationalist who looked beyond geographical boundaries and got to the heart of humanity, and that is very much the spirit of Scotland today. We are all proud to be Scots and we will be passionately patriotic at football and on the full range of other areas, but we all know that Scots have made a much wider contribution to the world than simply looking after our own backyard. The vast majority of working-class Scots certainly know that we have more in common with our neighbours who live south of the border in similar communities than divides us.
So when we take forward the debate on the Scotland Bill we must focus on what we can deliver for people in Scotland; this cannot simply be an academic exercise that bears no relation to the lives of the people who send us here to represent their views. I am proud to have represented the Scottish Parliament constituency of Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley for more than 10 years, and I will continue to represent it for the next 54 days as I count them down. I hope that, rather than that simply being a matter for the public record, it might help to offer a distinct perspective to the matter in hand, as was the case with my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran).
As a number of hon. Members have said, the Bill is broadly based on the Calman commission report, and I, too, wish to put on record my appreciation for what was a thorough and robust process involving a broad section of Scottish civil society. Sir Kenneth Calman has produced a significant body of work in which all those associated with it can take pride. I am in broad agreement with the aims of the Bill—perhaps people will say that that is no surprise—and I will be supporting it. However, as I shall set out, I believe that some aspects of it should be thoroughly and robustly examined, not least by the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, and scrutinised in this Chamber.
In the foreword to the White Paper on devolution, Donald Dewar wrote:
“The Government’s aim is a fair and just settlement for Scotland within the framework of the United Kingdom—a settlement which will be good both for Scotland and the United Kingdom. The Scottish Parliament will strengthen democratic control and make government more accountable to the people of Scotland.”
That was the basis of the Bill that fundamentally altered the structure of power in the United Kingdom.
On 11 September 1997, just over five months after Labour came to power, 74% of Scots voted in favour of the establishment of a Scottish Parliament. On 1 July 1999, the Scottish Parliament was officially convened. That date marked the transfer of powers and devolved matters to Scottish Ministers, and it was a time of immense pride for the vast majority of the Scottish people. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East has observed, those of us who were fortunate enough to be part of that day will forever feel that we were part of the history of Scotland. So quick and seamless were the transfer of powers and their incorporation into Scottish life that the enormity of the development and the significance of the change in a relatively short time might not always be acknowledged in the manner that it should be.
Notwithstanding the controversy over the Parliament building, my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary—I will call him my right hon. Friend in recognition of the days that we spent in the Scottish Parliament—will recall that some of the other debates in those early days were passionate and had a real energy and enthusiasm for the change that was taking place. That was due in no small part to the work of the Scottish Constitutional Convention over almost two decades, as was acknowledged by the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce). The convention was established in 1989 and consisted of representatives of civic Scotland and of most of the political parties. It drew up a detailed blueprint for devolution and outlined the proposals for the directly elected Scottish Parliament, crucially with the legislative powers that were finally achieved. That also formed the basis for the further proposals that were introduced by the UK Government in 1997.
I am proud to associate myself with the achievements of the Scottish Parliament over the past decade. As a Parliament, we set out to change Scotland for the better. A substantial body of work was undertaken, starting with the abolition of a millennium of feudal tenure, with communities being given the right to buy and manage the land on which they lived and worked. This was symbolic as well as practical. We also ensured that our elderly people could live with dignity and respect by introducing free personal care. We led on public well-being in the UK by introducing the smoking ban in public places, which represented a step change in the way we dealt with health issues in Scotland.
The Scottish Parliament also introduced an unprecedented programme of school and hospital building, ensuring that our children no longer had to be taught in substandard buildings and that our sick would no longer be abandoned to Victorian conditions in hospitals. We abolished up-front tuition fees and introduced bursaries for the less well-off students, which resulted in more young people going on to further education in Scotland than ever before. We also introduced a ban on fox hunting. I was particularly pleased with the establishment of a Children’s Commissioner for Scotland, for which I had campaigned for about 10 years before I even thought of becoming a full-time politician. The repeal of section 28 was controversial at the time, but now it is completely accepted as having been the right thing to do in the pursuit of equality. It was a Parliament that challenged Scotland to think about its future. It tried to engage every Scot in the challenges that we faced, and it led public debate in civil society. It is a Parliament that continues to ensure that there is a focus on protecting the most vulnerable, and it has made a real difference to the lives of everyone in Scotland.
The Calman commission came along at the right time, however. It published its findings after just a decade of the devolution settlement, and that seems an appropriate length of time after which to offer an initial assessment of how the Parliament has worked, as well as how we need to move on. Since 1999, the devolution settlement has remained relatively static, but I think that that was right at the time, as it allowed things to bed in and allowed the Parliament to take shape. Some minor changes were made. The Scottish Parliament (Constituencies) Act 2004 retained the current level of representation at 129 MSPs. That was done in recognition of the youth of the Parliament as well as the range of work that it was undertaking at the time. We have heard other examples of minor tweaks, not least the Railways Act 2005—perhaps not so minor a tweak—which allowed Scottish Ministers to prepare a strategy for carrying out their functions in relation to railways and railway services. That was another practical and sensible change.
It is now time, of course, to consider the future. The task that the Calman commission was set was:
“To review the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 in the light of experience and to recommend any changes to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the Scottish Parliament to serve the people of Scotland better”—
for me, that is the critical point—as well as to
“improve the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament”.
That is what I want to talk about now.
The Calman analysis of the current settlement, notwithstanding some of the criticisms we have heard in the Chamber today, is persuasive. England and Scotland have been part of the Union for three centuries but Scotland maintains its own identity and now has its own devolved political institutions. Overall, people would say the devolution settlement has been shown to work pretty well. It has not led to the convoluted or confused relationship with other partners in the United Kingdom that some people thought it might; nor has it led down a one-way street towards independence, as others feared. There are changes that we can and must make in order to take forward this work in the future.
There is cross-party understanding that the financial arrangements lack the financial accountability we will want to see as the Parliament progresses. By depending wholly on the Westminster grant, the budget bears no relation to economic performance in Scotland. As we have seen in recent years with differing strands of opinion in power at Holyrood and Westminster, that can result in friction between Governments. The premise of the Calman commission was that election to the Scottish Parliament should be accompanied not just by being there to divide up the block grant but by having fiscal accountability, too. Under the proposed arrangements, Scotland will become more dependent on and more accountable for the tax revenue it raises.
As we have heard, the Bill replaces the Scottish variable rate of income tax with a new Scottish rate of income tax that will be decided by the Scottish Parliament annually and applied consistently to the basic, higher and additional rates of income tax. The grant from the UK Government will automatically be reduced by 10p in the pound and the Scottish rate will be added to it. In principle, I support the proposed measures, but we must ensure that there is proper and thorough scrutiny of what they will mean as the Bill goes through Parliament.
Under the proposals, the UK will retain control of exemptions and reliefs and Scottish tax revenues will be subject to Westminster control. One concern that has been raised is that when the UK takes decisions such as increasing the personal allowance to £9,000 or eliminating the 50% top rate, that will affect Scottish revenues. We have heard criticisms of that today as well as some attempted reassurances. A critical point that we must reach in Committee will involve ensuring that we receive reassurances about how that will work as well as assurances that it will not cause further problems or lead to unintended consequences, as has been suggested in Scotland.
Borrowing powers will also be introduced, another move that I broadly support. We have heard that from 2015, Ministers will be allowed to borrow up to 10% of the Scottish budget in any one year subject to an overall limit on capital borrowing of £2.2 billion. In principle, that will be a positive step that should allow key infrastructure projects to proceed as and when the Parliament believes they are necessary. The Bill also provides, however, that the Scottish Parliament will be able to borrow £500 million through new revenue borrowing powers when tax receipts fall short of those anticipated. At first glance, that offers limited flexibility and would mean that Scotland could be under pressure to make spending cuts should a significant shortfall arise. I am sure that that will be considered further as the Bill makes progress.
As scrutiny takes place, we must ensure that we consider the financial calculations and the financial implications of Calman in light of our present economic circumstances. That is the right and responsible approach as we continue to scrutinise the Bill. It is not enough simply to say, as SNP Members appear to be saying, that the Bill does not go far enough, so they are going to vote against the extra powers it will give. That is a rather odd stance for them to take. I might have misunderstood them, and no doubt they will correct that misapprehension if I have, but it certainly sounded like that to me.
I hope that one option we will consider during our scrutiny of the Bill is whether the proposal regarding the Scottish Parliament’s borrowing powers can be brought forward slightly more quickly than the Bill proposes. That is up for debate and would be useful to allow the planning of key infrastructure. It would also have the benefit of assisting what is currently a pretty beleaguered construction sector in Scotland.
Several issues have not been mentioned and I shall mention them briefly before concluding. The measures on licensing the prescription of controlled substances to deal with certain addiction problems make sense and I am sure we will want to consider that issue in more detail in Committee.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East has highlighted, the devolution of the competency over air weapons to the Scottish Parliament will potentially allow the introduction of a different approach and licensing system there. She mentioned my time as Scotland’s Justice Minister. In that role, I had discussions with different Home Secretaries—four at the last count—to decide how best to ensure that people in Scotland were protected from those who would use air weapons irresponsibly. We agreed that our approach should not be taken forward in an ad hoc way and should not simply be a soundbite solution that would please a few people but would not actually deliver. That is why I am pleased that we will have the opportunity to scrutinise that issue properly and come up with a workable solution.
As I have said, the financial relationship between the Scottish Parliament, the people of Scotland and the rest of the UK is vital. Let me respond to some of the comments from SNP Members about our scrutiny of the Bill. I do not recall being given much quarter by Labour Back Benchers when I was a Labour Minister in the Scottish Government—I have no problem calling it that although it is technically called the Scottish Executive—and I am sure that during our debates on this Bill, Labour Members will properly seek to scrutinise every clause and line of the Bill to ensure that we are doing the right thing.
We should keep at the forefront of our minds the reason why we are doing all this. It is not a dry, academic exercise only for text books and discussion in learned tomes. It is about making a difference for the people of Scotland whom we represent. We must make the Bill relevant to people, because nothing will drive them away faster from engaging in the process than if they believe it is not a Bill for them—that it is only for politicians and will not affect their lives. If that happened, we would lose a considerable amount because we would be moving away from the intention of the late Donald Dewar, which was to make the Government more accountable to the people of Scotland.
There is plenty of public opinion and evidence in Scotland that people want a stronger form of devolution than at present, and they look to us to find the way forward. They might not know exactly the chapter and verse—where they want the t’s crossed and the i’s dotted in the legislation—but they look to us to take forward the principles and spirit of devolution and to come up with solutions. We have a unique opportunity in this Parliament to reshape how devolution works with a more comprehensive approach, so I welcome the Bill and look forward to our continued scrutiny of it as it goes through Parliament.
Stewart Hosie
I now see what the Minister is asking. I have every confidence that, when we coalesce in Committee, the common sense of Members from all parties will lead to a number of successful amendments that will improve the Bill, perhaps by addressing the weaknesses in the financial powers, for example, to which the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun alluded. We will wait until the subsequent stages before deciding on the Bill, which might have been changed substantially by then.
Stewart Hosie
I will take one more intervention before starting line 1 of my speech.
Cathy Jamieson
My understanding was that the hon. Gentleman indicated earlier that he would divide the House on the amendment, the last line of which states that the House
“considers the Bill as a whole to be unacceptable.”
Given the spirit of consensus that appears to be breaking out, will he now consider withdrawing the amendment so that we can move forward on the basis of consensus?
Stewart Hosie
The arguments in favour of the reasoned amendment will be made and they will explain, I hope with some support, why there are flaws in the Bill.
The Bill contains two fundamental fiscal measures: first, the reduction in the basic higher and additional rates of income tax by 10p, and the setting of a Scottish rate to compensate for that; and secondly, the availability of limited revenue and capital borrowing powers. Revenue borrowing will fill a part of the gap left when revenue decreases and a limited increase in capital borrowing will enhance direct capital investment.
However, the income tax powers are inadequate and include an in-built, long-term deflationary bias in the Scottish budget. The borrowing powers, particularly the revenue powers, are so tightly controlled that they are unlikely to be effective in delivering the sensible outcomes that many of us want. It is also worth noting that even the devolution of the income tax, the small stamp duty land tax and the landfill tax means that the Scottish Parliament will still have direct control of only 15% of the taxes raised in Scotland, with the remaining 85% accruing directly to London. I do not intend to talk about full fiscal autonomy, which there has been some talk of, but as a comparator we can look to the Basque country, which has been mentioned. It controls around 86% of its revenue.
I want to concentrate on the specific problems with income tax provisions. Receipts are sensitive to changes in economic circumstances and might fall dramatically in a downturn, as I will explain later. That presents an instability to the budget in Scotland, because we are talking mainly about income tax and the shortfall that would not be matched by the Bill’s provision of very limited borrowing powers. Growth in income tax revenue is low when compared with that of total tax revenue, and that is obviously deflationary, because only the modest growth in income tax will accrue to the Scottish Parliament, with the higher growth in total tax accruing still to London.
The figures between 2004-05 and 2008-09, for example, show that total tax revenue increased by £13.7 billion, but under the proposed plan the Scottish Government, although they control 15% of the tax, will receive only 9% of the increase. That automatically begins to squeeze the Scottish budget. Even within income tax, the most significant growth comes from the higher rates, and most of that growth will not be available to Scotland.
Historically, higher rate taxpayers account for a larger share of the growth in tax receipts, and therefore most of the growth in income tax receipts will accrue directly to Westminster, not to Scotland. We might, in fact, receive a declining share of Scotland’s income tax yields, because we are assigned half the basic rate, one quarter of the 40% rate and only 20% of the 50% rate. The impact of that deflationary bias can best be demonstrated by assuming that the powers had been in place since 1999-2000. Since then, the impact of the shortfall against forecast departmental expenditure limits would have represented an accumulative cut of about £8 billion.
Constitutional Law
Cathy Jamieson Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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David Mundell
As the hon. Gentleman knows, this is a coalition in the Westminster Parliament, and the arrangement in that coalition was that there should be a referendum on AV as the United Kingdom voting system. I wish that his colleagues in the Scottish Parliament had perhaps pressed more strongly in their own coalition negotiations for a referendum to be the requirement for the introduction of STV for local government in Scotland.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for so generously giving way. If he is so keen on the Scottish Parliament making strong representations, what account is he taking of the strong recommendation from the Scottish Parliament that the referendum and the election should not take place on the same day?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady will be pleased to know that I read in detail the debate that took place in the Scottish Parliament on this subject. The hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) was able to bring to that debate her reflections on her time in Westminster. I am sure that even she would recognise that during the course of that debate, nothing was said that had not already been said in this Parliament in the debate on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. No new argument was made by that day’s coalition of Labour and Scottish National party Members.
David Mundell
Mr Ron Gould provided an authoritative report that is reflected in the order and in the subsequent Scottish Affairs Select Committee inquiry, but not everything that he said at the time was taken forward. As I said to the former Minister, the hon. Member for Inverclyde (David Cairns), the previous Government’s choice of proposals not to be taken forward was quite right.
Cathy Jamieson
I want to ask the Minister for absolute clarity on this. He has cited the Scottish Affairs Select Committee a number of times. Does he accept that Ron Gould did not tell the Committee that it was a good thing to hold the two elections on the same day? He said it would be possible to do it, but he did not endorse it.
David Mundell
I think that I have quoted Mr Gould in full, and I think he is quite clear—
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I shall be brief as I know that some of my colleagues hope to get into the debate. At the start of it, we could have been forgiven for wondering why a document that should be an uncontroversial order dealing with the rules relating to elections caused so much grief and so many exchanges across the Chamber. Amid the political knockabout that went on, there is a serious point about the manner, the timing and the way in which the order has been brought before the House, which causes serious concerns about parliamentary process.
Cathy Jamieson
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to make some progress. It is important to recognise that the order contained some drafting deficiencies, which the Minister was good enough to highlight. The reason that there has been so much discussion of the order tonight is that there is unfinished business from some of the other debates that have gone on, particularly about the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.
Government Members may shake their heads, but the issue concerns not only the Members present this evening. It is a serious matter for the Members of the Scottish Parliament who voted the way they did because they did not believe that it was right to have the referendum and the Scottish Parliament election on the same day. That was made very clear by the Scottish Parliament’s Local Government and Communities Committee, including, as I understand it, by a member of the same party as the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) who also believes that it was the wrong decision.
The problem is that such an approach has left the people of Scotland, particularly parliamentarians in Scotland, feeling that no matter what they say or do, their votes and views do not count in this place. That is a particular problem because the Government initially set out to talk about and highlight the new respect agenda. That simply has not come to pass, and it has been highlighted once again by the delay in bringing what should have been a relatively uncontroversial order to this Chamber for debate. Perhaps an expert on the constitution and the workings of the House will tell me I am wrong, but I find it odd that we should have discussed the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, which refers to the order, in advance of the order itself. That seems highly unusual, and I hope that the Minister refers to that in his winding-up comments.
People keep raising concerns about holding the referendum and Scottish Parliament elections on the same day, because we have bitter experience of things going badly wrong. We understand that mistakes were made last time, and we want to ensure that they do not happen again, so I find it difficult to listen to the Minister selectively quoting Mr Ron Gould. If we are serious about ensuring that we do not repeat the same problems, we should take account of everything that the Gould report says.
On several occasions I have pressed Ministers to tell me whether they will listen to the views of the Scottish Parliament. I have heard warm words but seen absolutely no action.
Margaret Curran
The Minister referred to last week’s debate in the Scottish Parliament and my participation in it. I said that no plausible explanation had been given as to why the Scottish Parliament had not been consulted on the process. Given that the Parliament passed the relevant motion by a two-thirds majority and the Minister knows the importance of its view, does my hon. Friend agree that the Government should recognise its expressed will?
Cathy Jamieson
I absolutely understand my hon. Friend’s position, and she is absolutely right. I hope that in closing I can give the Minister one final opportunity to recognise the will of the Scottish Parliament and state that he not only hears it, but will do something about it.
Summertime (Scotland)
Cathy Jamieson Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Harris
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making those valid comments and trying to pre-empt the points that I hope to make in the next few minutes.
It is up to the Lighter Later campaign and its many supporters here in the Commons to make the case for all the benefits that will accrue from pushing the clocks forward an hour, and they can do that during the debate on the private Member’s Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), who is in the Chamber. I will return to that issue shortly.
As a father of young children, I approach this subject from a particular direction. The other alleged benefits that I mentioned earlier notwithstanding, it is the effect on Scotland’s road safety record, particularly as it affects children, that most concerns me. We already know that road accidents are more likely to occur in the evening peak hour than in the morning. One will often hear the protest that drivers are not fully alert first thing in the morning when they drive to work, and are more alert as they return. I do not believe this to be the case, and the evidence is indeed to the contrary.
The 1998 study by Transport Research estimated that a move away from GMT would lead to an overall reduction in road deaths and serious injuries of 0.7% in Scotland alone. Based on the figures for 2009, that would mean 20 fewer deaths and serious injuries on Scotland’s roads, and 30 fewer casualties across all categories of severity.
John Scott MSP said that Scottish children should not have to go to school in darkness. Mr. Scott represents Ayr, and I grew up in that same county, and I know that by December children there will be doing precisely that anyway. Dawn can arrive after classes have begun.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way because he has been very generous with his time. I note the points that he makes in relation to John Scott MSP, whom I know well. He is a farmer in Ayrshire, so I was rather surprised that he did not agree with some of his farming colleagues. I am old enough to remember the last experiment in Scotland when I was a pupil. Will my hon. Friend say something to reassure those parents who have heard tales of children going to school in the dark with the high-visibility armbands securely attached to the duffle coats and torches to get them to the end of their streets?
Mr Harris
That is a valid point. It will have to be met head on by the supporters of the campaign, because there is no doubt that in the 1968 trial, although road deaths throughout the vast majority of Scotland reduced significantly, there was a small increase in the number of road deaths in the far north of Scotland. Of course that has to be taken seriously, and I will say as much later on, but let us remember that when it comes to generating publicity on a particular campaign, it is far easier for the media to publicise deaths and injuries on the road than to publicise deaths and injuries that were avoided.
We, as parents and—all of us, I think—as former children, know that when children head out to school in the morning on, say, a 10-minute journey, they allow almost exactly that amount of time for the journey. The return journey, however, is a different matter. It may sound counter-intuitive to suggest that children will be in a bigger hurry to reach school in the morning than to get back home again in the afternoon, but it makes perfect sense. Children adopt a more relaxed approach as they head home, perhaps taking diversions to friends’ homes, popping into a shop or chatting with friends at the school gate.
We see exactly the same phenomenon in our working lives. I saw it as a Transport Minister and when I worked in transport planning before being elected to the House. The evening rush hour is being extended every year and becoming longer and longer, as flexible hours mean more people leaving the office later, more people perhaps heading to the pub or to the shops on the way home, and evening buses and trains carrying the same total number of commuters on their return journeys as they did in the morning rush hour, but over a significantly longer period.
However, too much time in this debate—too much attention—is focused on the journey to and from school. In any one year, children in Scotland spend as much time travelling between home and their friends’ homes, and walking to and from various places of recreation, as they do travelling to and from school. Indeed, during the very darkest mornings in December and early January, children are on holiday from school and do not have to make those journeys at those early times, but they still make journeys later in the day, when the light is fading and they are far more at risk from passing cars.
Oral Answers to Questions
Cathy Jamieson Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
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Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
1. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the future provision of services currently provided by Consumer Focus Scotland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
The Government carried out a review of the landscape of consumer protection bodies and will publish a consultation early next year with proposals to streamline and transfer the functions of Consumer Focus Scotland to Citizens Advice Scotland.
Cathy Jamieson
I thank the Minister for his answer. I know that he will be aware of the significant work done by Consumer Focus Scotland and indeed of the very worthy work of citizens rights bureaux in Scotland in upholding citizens’ rights. A report published today highlights one trend of serious concern: the number of people approaching citizens advice bureaux regarding employment support allowance has almost doubled in the last 12 months. In the light of the damaging cuts to the welfare budget announced last week and the significant additional pressures it will put on citizens advice bureaux, what discussions have the Minister and Secretary of State had directly with Citizens Advice Scotland regarding the transfer of these functions?
David Mundell
The Scotland Office has been in dialogue with Citizens Advice Scotland—and, indeed, with the Scottish Government—about the services it currently provides and those it will provide if the functions from Consumer Focus Scotland are transferred to it. The hon. Lady makes an important point about the provision of advice, not just about the benefit she mentioned, but about all benefits.