Health Bill (Fourteenth sitting)

Caroline Johnson Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 9th July 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

As my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight East just said, new clause 6 seeks in essence to ensure that we have good data security and control, with which I agree. Trust is important, data security is important and supporting research with anonymised data is a good thing to do.

What would the new clause do? First, it would establish an independent body known as a sovereign health data trust. In essence, that is a group of people who have been put together. The new clause does not say how big the group would be—I do not know whether the hon. Member for North Shropshire had its size in mind—but it describes a group of people with

“a diverse range of backgrounds…and…health data experts, clinicians and patient representatives.”

Are the first group intended to be laypeople, rather than experts? What does the hon. Lady mean by a “diverse range of backgrounds”? Does that relate to protected characteristics, or is she looking for a farmer from Northumberland and a lawyer from Islington, because they have different backgrounds? It is not entirely clear what she means, so I would be grateful if she clarified that. Additionally, however big that group is, who would decide how it is composed and by what criteria? Who would be responsible?

The sovereign health data trust would be charged with creating a health data charter. That leads me to my second question: what is a health data charter? In essence, a health data charter—as defined in the new clause—must

“set out the fundamental principles and responsibilities for assessing whether a data sharing partnership is in the interest of the public and the NHS”,

and, as my hon. Friend the for Isle of Wight East said,

“include the primary goal of protecting people’s privacy and their data from exploitation, while promoting trust in data systems and the handling of health data”.

That is important, because we have heard in the media several examples of data being put up for sale or leaked, and the problems caused by that.

The charter must also

“ensure patients have control of their data, including providing relevant opt-outs”.

I am glad to see that bit about relevant opt-outs. We have talked about the importance of the record being shared not as a whole, but in pieces. Things such as obstetric or sexual health ought perhaps to be consented to separately. Patient control of the data is important. How would the hon. Member for North Shropshire deal with safeguarding issues in the control of data, particularly in relation to children?

The new clause sets out that the charter must

“provide that all health data is held anonymously and accessed through a trusted research environment”—

which seems reasonable—and must

“set out ways to retain and protect the value of health data in England, including providing measures to invest a share of the income generated from new medicines or treatments developed with that health data to be invested back into the NHS”.

Earlier this week, the hon. Member for Lichfield and I discussed the important value of the NHS data—I think he said that it was the most valuable dataset in the world, and he might well be right. I was a bit confused by that part of the new clause, because we talked earlier this week about the Health Services Safety Investigations Body being able to sell time and training and share expertise, including with private sector organisations overseas. The Government changed that in the Bill, so that they would only be able to retain costs and not make any money for the Treasury. When we put amendment 56 to a vote, the Liberal Democrats abstained. I do not know what the difference is between using NHS data for research and the HSSIB using their expertise for training overseas organisations. I would be grateful to understand that.

The charter must be

“designed in such a way to render it interoperable with the European Health Data Space”.

The European Health Data Space regulations were introduced in March 2025. We are in a transition period, and they will be implemented in 2027 and 2029. It should be interoperable in technical terms

“through the promotion of Findable, Accessible, Interoperable and Reusable (FAIR) data principles”.

What is the European Health Data Space? Essentially, it is a single patient record for Europe. Its instructions say member states may—I underline the word may—offer

“an opt-out option for the cross-border exchange of electronic health data under EHDS.”

I do not understand the Liberal Democrats’ argument for that, because they have made a strong argument throughout Committee stage that data needs to be shared carefully. They advanced some clauses that will ensure that data is held in the United Kingdom and that we use British tech where possible. New clause 6 would make us interoperable with the European system and presumably move us towards European systems.

[Gregory Stafford]

I do not mean this as a cheeky point, but is it not the case that clearly, as with everything, the Liberal Democrats think that the European Union can do no wrong? They do not see the same problems of data that they have expressed in other clauses because they want to rejoin the European Union. Therefore, they conceive that it can have no possible harm to British subjects.

[Dr Johnson]

Indeed. When reading it, it is ironic to me that they seem comfortable with data being shared across the EU but not across our own country. It did not make complete sense to me, but the hon. Lady for North Shropshire may be able to tell us more about that in her summing up.

What else will the sovereign health data trust group do? It will have

“continuous oversight of all health data and oversee the trusted research environment”.

Having oversight over “all health data” is quite a big job. Again, what sort of resources does the hon. Lady think that will entail, and what does she have in mind in terms of the cost and bureaucracy of that? It would also

“have power to recall or restrict an organisation’s access to data if it has reason to believe that the data is not being used for public or patient benefit.”

What is the threshold for that? A lot of these organisations will be working in a commercial environment; if they receive a letter, potentially from a competitor, saying there is a concern, does that meet the threshold? What would the threshold be?

Having decided that the data might not be used for public benefit, what investigatory powers does the hon. Lady envisage the trust having to establish whether that is the case or not? What if it does receive some concerning correspondence, it does the investigation under the investigatory powers that it has been given, it decides that it does not think it is being used for public or patient benefit, and it restricts the organisation’s ability to access data? That will potentially have a significant financial penalty and it may affect patients’ access to healthcare, too. What right of appeal would the organisation have? Who would they appeal to and how would it work? On the wording, commercial activity may well benefit patients, which is sometimes forgotten.

The next thing the data trust will have to do is

“ensure that all data sharing arrangements with a non-NHS organisation are transparent, with all health data contracts entered into by a public body made publicly available”.

I would like some more detail about that. Would that include anonymously provided data? What effect would that have on the research environment and the integrity of research done under commercial arrangements? What about the costs? Would any costs be shared and what effect would that have on future commercial negotiations when the Government are trying to get the next organisation to look at the data? What level of detail made publicly available in the contract would need to be provided?

The trust would need to publish minutes of their meetings, which seems reasonable. It would need to

“ensure all health data collection and sharing initiatives are preceded by public consultation, involvement and awareness.”

Do the Liberal Democrats really intend for all data collection to go through public consultation? If, as we talked about regarding corridor care, the Government wanted to know how many people are waiting more than 24 hours in A&E, would they have to do a public consultation to collect that data? It seems overly bureaucratic.

[Gregory Stafford]

Is that not part of the problem with the wording of the new clause? It is not clear, from the new clause, what is NHS data and what is the patient’s data, and who owns which bit of it. The problem with the drafting of the new clause is that it appears to cover every single piece of data held by the NHS, whether it directly relates to a patient or not. Additionally, if the Government were to collect any other sort of data, even if on an aggregate basis, it would come under this. That would be totally unworkable and put an enormous burden of bureaucracy on the health service.

[Dr Johnson]

My hon. Friend is, as ever, correct. I would be interested in whether the hon. Member for North Shropshire has made any estimates of personnel time or cost that the proposal would entail.

In summary, the new clause would create an unelected committee removing democratic control. Essentially, it is asking a committee of unelected individuals to write and implement policy, which is the job of the Minister. That should be under ministerial control.

[Joe Robertson]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is an overarching issue here of public confidence in the safety of their data? That is not about one company or another; it is about ensuring that robust safeguards are in place for everyone and for every provider of a data and record-keeping system. If the public do not have confidence, they will understandably withdraw consent for their data being held. That will undermine the single patient record and the whole way in which health can be delivered efficiently in the best interests of patients.

[Dr Johnson]

I agree. I am sure that the purpose behind the new clause is to ensure that data is safe, but it removes democratic accountability from the process of developing the policy, which may reduce the public’s confidence in it. I agree with its underlying principles, but much of it is cumbersome and, as yet, undefined, so it is important that we get more detail and specificity.

[The Minister for Secondary Care (Karin Smyth)]

It is good to see you in the Chair, Dr Huq. I am grateful to the hon. Member for North Shropshire for tabling this new clause. I am sympathetic to its intentions: the security of data, the transparency of use and even realising the value of data. Its principles are in the interests of the public and the NHS, but we do not consider it necessary to achieve our aims. It would impose onerous operational requirements and could have a damaging impact on the ability of the NHS to function.

There is also a significant overlap with the role of the independent national guardian and potentially that of the information commissioner. Once the functions of NHS England have transferred to the Secretary of State, the Secretary of State must have regard to the need to respect and promote the privacy of recipients of health services and of adult social care in England, which is in addition to the requirements already set out in UK GDPR. The Secretary of State will be able to issue guidance to the health and care sector relating to the processing of information to which NHS bodies must have regard. The Secretary of State will be under a duty to have regard to guidance given by the Health Research Authority on the disclosure of confidential information.

The proposed trust functions would also encroach significantly on the operational role intended for the health data research service, and would place cumbersome constraints on vital data collecting and sharing within the NHS. The new clause would mean that all health data collections and data-sharing initiatives would have to be preceded by public consultation. That would capture any of the essential collections that NHS England undertakes, and indeed any collection by NHS organisations, not to mention the use of that data. The burden would be considerable, with very real consequences for the ability of the NHS to use that data to improve outcomes for patients.

Likewise, I cannot see how requiring all health data to be held anonymously and accessed only through a trusted, secure research environment would be compatible with delivering direct care to a patient or using confidential patient information for planning and commissioning services or research. It seems that the new clause would prevent such uses. For those reasons, I ask the hon. Member to withdraw the motion.

[Helen Morgan]

Hon. and right hon. Members on the Committee will understand that we are talking about a single patient record that we do not understand much about yet, because most of the detail will come later. This new clause is attempting to establish what guardrails we would like to see for the protection of patient data when the single patient record is brought into existence

There are very genuine concerns about people’s health conditions becoming individually identifiable. If there is an individual in a single postcode with a rare condition, anonymising the data can essentially never happen. That is a genuine concern that people have. I hope that, when we get to Report stage, the Government will be able to give us a little more detail on what safeguards they intend to put in place over the use of that data. To that end, I do not intend to press this new clause to a vote, but I hope that the Government will take into account the concerns we have expressed about building trust and protecting data privacy, and will give us further reassurance at a later stage. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 11

Directors of public health

“After section 7B of the National Health Service Act 2006 insert—

‘7BA Directors of public health

Each integrated care board must, for the purposes of exercising any public health functions directed by the Secretary of State, appoint a lead director of public health.’”—(Dr Caroline Johnson.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Dr Johnson]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 24—Directors of public health: requirements and functions—

“After section (73C) of the National Health Service Act 2006 insert—

‘73D Directors of public health: requirements and functions

Directors of public health must—

(a) be an officer of the local authority and shall have responsibility for its public health functions,

(b) be an NHS consultant in public health responsible for giving independent professional public health advice and for promoting public debate on health matters,

(c) be a corporation sole and NHS body for working with others to initiate measures to improve the health of the people,

(d) be an officer of the Crown responsible for such functions as the Secretary of State may specify,

(e) as an officer of the Crown have power to draw the attention of the Chief Medical Officer and the Attorney General to events within the area of the local authority creating circumstances in which it might be appropriate to bring proceedings in the name of the Crown for public health purposes,

(f) be an officer of the National Health Service responsible for promoting the provision of services which are outcome-focused, are provided following a proper needs assessment and pay attention to the promotion of health and the prevention of illness,

(g) as an officer of the NHS, have power either personally (in the case of a body which primarily serves the population of the local authority which appointed the DPH) or through joint arrangements with other Directors of Public Health (in the case of a body which primarily serves the population of several local authorities) or through a collective arrangement established by the Chief Medical Officer (in the case of a body with a national remit) to appoint, or approve arrangements for the body to appoint, a consultant in public health to serve on the governing body of any NHS body (other than an NHS body which is a local authority), any NHS Foundation Trust, any of the bodies established under this Act or any of the bodies established under the Health & Social Care Act 2012 or any other legislation relating to the governance of the NHS (for the avoidance of doubt the consultant so appointed may be, but need not be, the Director of Public Health personally).

(h) as an officer of the NHS and of the local authority, have power either personally (in the case of a body which primarily serves all or part of the population of the local authority which appointed the DPH) or through joint arrangements with other Directors of Public Health (in the case of a body such as a joint board or combined authority which primarily serves the population of several local authorities) to appoint a consultant in public health to attend any local authority meeting and to advise the meeting whilst it is in session on matters affecting the health of the people (for the avoidance of doubt the consultant so appointed may be, but need not be, the Director of Public Health personally and a different consultant may be appointed for different meetings).

(i) be contractually required, subject to law, to carry out the functions in subsections (b) to (h) herewith as an independent health professional treating a population as a patient and pursuing the improvement of its health and to be contractually entitled not to be subject to any detriment by the local authority or by the Crown for so doing.’”

[Dr Johnson]

I want to briefly discuss these new clauses because I think that they are important, particularly because they were tabled by the hon. Member for Worthing West (Dr Cooper), who is an expert in the field. New clauses 11 and 24 relate to directors of public health. We know from the Government that prevention, and therefore public health, is extremely important. New clause 11 says:

“Each integrated care board must, for the purposes of exercising any public health functions directed by the Secretary of State, appoint a lead director of public health.”

New clause 24 sets out the requirements and functions of directors of public health—what such an individual will do.

Currently, every local authority must have a director of public health, which is set out in statute. They focus on three areas: health protection, health improvement and healthcare public health. They take the evidence in relation to their population, produce a vision, develop aims, deliver those aims and then produce a report annually to say how they are getting on with that process. The National Health Service Act 2006 says that that must be done across an upper tier or unitary local authority area, and that directors of public health must provide advice about public health to any ICBs that overlap with their area. ICBs also have a legal duty to seek advice on protecting public health when they are exercising their functions.

I think that we all agree across the Committee that public health is important, but I do have some questions. Unfortunately, the hon. Member for Worthing West is not a member of the Committee, so she is not able to respond to any questions today. We have talked in this Committee about the representation of local authorities on ICBs and the fact that Government cuts of 50% have led to a merging of ICBs in a somewhat haphazard fashion, which means that there can be a clash between different areas.

I guess that my question for the Minister would be this: if this clause were to come into force and the ICBs that are no longer coterminous with the local authority upper-tier or unitary authority areas, would there be a duplication of work? My other concern would be that it would lead to a situation where there might be one director of public health with a vision to go one way, and another with a direction to go the other way. If that happened, how would the negotiation process work? I think this measure was brought in with good intent by a lady who is an expert in the field, but I have more questions than answers about how the clause will work in practice.

[Gregory Stafford]

It is very important that we consider these new clauses and amendments carefully, not least because, as my hon. Friend has just outlined, the hon. Member for Worthing West, who tabled them, has considerable expertise, being a public health consultant herself. I have the pleasure of sitting with the hon. Member on the Health and Social Care Committee and she brings her expertise to every single sitting. I am sure that the Minister has welcomed her questioning when she has appeared before that Committee.

It is really clear that, if we are going to make a success of the Bill, public health in all its guises needs to be at the forefront of our thinking about how we achieve better patient outcomes, better health and, more specifically, the Government’s stated aims in the 10-year plan to, first, shift care closer to home and, secondly, focus more on prevention rather than treatment. I am sure that across the House we agree with that ambition and therefore I can totally understand why the hon. Member for Worthing West has tabled these new clauses.

I suspect that the new clauses are also a reaction to something that we have already discussed in this Committee, which is the dislocation and now the separation of local authorities from ICBs, with the removal of their statutory functions on those boards, to be given to strategic mayoral authorities. Some of those strategic mayoral authorities exist but, as we have discussed at some length in the Committee, many of them do not exist and might never exist. I can see why the hon. Member for Worthing West is trying to ensure that the vital work of directors of public health in local authorities for their population areas is somehow safeguarded and included in the Bill.

That being said, I have some reservations about how these new clauses are currently drafted. My hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham has already outlined many of them. Although strengthening public health leadership is an essential objective, new clause 24 defines the statutory role and legal status of directors of public health in this context without providing sufficient clarity about accountability or governance, or about how these new powers would interact with existing NHS and local authority structures. Potentially, there is a risk of creating overlapping responsibilities, blurred lines of accountability and additional bureaucracy at a time when integrated working should be simplified rather than made more complex.

Obviously, the hon. Member for Worthing West is not here to answer my questions. I ask the Minister this: if these new clauses are not pressed to a vote, or if they are but are not accepted by this Committee, how can she reassure me and the hon. Member for Worthing West that public health will still be at the forefront of the Bill, and that the removal of local authorities from ICBs will not have the impact that I think the hon. Member, who tabled these new clauses, is concerned about?

[Karin Smyth]

Further to that point, I absolutely want to assure my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West, who is not a member of this Committee, and indeed the members of this Committee that the Government fully appreciate the important role of public health professionals. They bring critical expertise in population health intelligence, epidemiology and community co-design, and those capabilities are integral to the role of ICBs as strategic commissioners.

On new clause 11, there is already a statutory duty on ICBs to seek advice, and a statutory duty on local authorities to provide public health advice to ICBs. However, that does not mean that ICBs should be required to employ a director of public health directly. Local authorities already employ a director of public health and we expect ICBs to work collaboratively with their local authority partners and not to duplicate their work.

NHS England recently published the strategic commissioning framework and guidance for ICBs on strengthening the public health advice, both of which are clear that ICBs should work with local public health teams and stakeholders to draw upon their expertise to ensure a strong evidence base for commissioning decisions.

As the responsibilities of ICBs for commissioning NHS public health services grow, we expect them to continue to draw on the skills and expertise of local authority directors of public health, as well as other specialist public health expertise, including screening and immunisation leads, and the UK Health Security Agency. I absolutely agree that public health expertise is essential for ICBs to commission effectively and we have set out how they will access that; the basis for all this is of course the joint strategic needs assessment. However, I do not believe that it is necessary to require an ICB to appoint a lead director for public health in order to have access to such advice.

On new clause 24, as the Committee is aware, local authority directors of public health are advocates for the health of their population. They have a professional leadership role across the three domains of public health: health improvement, health protection and healthcare public health. Their work spans organisational boundaries. Although they are employed by local authorities and appointed jointly with the Secretary of State, their role is designed to bridge local government and the NHS. They are also required to provide objective, evidence-based advice, without political interference, and they are expected to be suitably qualified and regulated public health specialists who take a population-wide perspective to health outcomes and health inequalities.

At the heart of their role is their statutory responsibility to prepare an annual report on the health of their local population. That crucial document underpins the plans of health and wellbeing boards and, through them, the ICBs. Directors of public health are also required to be members of health and wellbeing boards, which will be the central mechanism for partnership working between local authorities and ICBs in the new neighbourhood health system. As such, directors of public health will be well placed to help to shape ICB system-wide plans and strategies on public health issues going forward, something that we discussed earlier in the Committee.

There is a statutory duty on ICBs to obtain appropriate and expert public health advice, and a legal duty on local authorities in turn, carried out by the director of public health and their team, to provide public health advice to ICBs. Beyond those requirements, the NHS, including ICBs, is of course free to employ its own senior public health professionals.

The proposed new clause risks creating some significant ambiguity around accountability and risk, constraining rather than enhancing the independence of directors of public health, which I am sure is not the intention of the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham or of the Committee. I hope I can offer reassurance to the hon. Member and indeed to the Committee that we are proud of our strong and coherent public health system, that this Bill does not alter its importance and that we will continue to champion the role of directors of public health and ensure clarity in the new architecture. I ask that the new clause be withdrawn.

[Dr Johnson]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 12

Corridor Care Accountability

“(1) Six months after the passage of this Act, and every 12 months thereafter, the Secretary of State must produce and lay before Parliament a report on the prevalence of corridor care in NHS hospitals.

(2) A report under subsection (1) must include—

(a) an analysis of data on the number of corridor incidents at the national, integrated care board, trust, and hospital level,

(b) the steps the Secretary of State has taken that year to reduce the number of corridor care incidents,

(c) the Secretary of State’s plans to reduce the number of corridor care incidents in the coming year, and

(d) information regarding the amount of funding directed toward reducing the number of corridor care incidents that year and funding allocated for such efforts in the future.

(3) Following the publication of a report under subsection (1) the Secretary of State must give evidence in front of a panel (to be called the “Corridor Care Tribunal”) including—

(a) patients,

(b) bereaved or affected families, and

(c) frontline NHS staff who have been impacted by corridor care.

(4) Panel members for a Corridor Care Tribunal under subsection (3) shall be identified by local Healthwatch organisations and NHS Royal Colleges.”

This new clause requires the Secretary of State to publish an annual report about corridor care and give evidence before a panel of affected patients and staff.—(Helen Morgan.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Helen Morgan]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

New clause 84, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, suggests that we collect and publish the data so that patients and the public can see it, and the Government can act on it, either in their position as the controller of healthcare or by encouraging ICBs, as the providers of local healthcare, to make improvements. That seems to me a more sensible, appropriate and proportionate approach, rather than setting up another bureaucratic oversight body with no real sense of how it would operate, what it would investigate or the possible outcomes of its investigations.

[Dr Johnson]

New clauses 12, 56 and 84 are about care in our accident and emergency departments and care in corridors. I do not want to rerun the debate on corridor care that we had in the Chamber last night, but corridor care does not provide safety, privacy and dignity, and it is unpleasant for the patient, their family and staff. If someone is in a corridor, how can they get changed, or use a commode or a bed pan? How can they be examined privately, and give information about their medical history without being overheard by a person walking down the corridor or the person in the bed next to them? Corridor care also has safety issues; for example, a patient may not be proximal to as much equipment, such as oxygen supplies and other equipment that might be required in the event of a collapse or arrest. It is not right and should not be the case that patients are cared for in corridors.

The hon. Member for Blaydon and Consett talked about the history, but I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight East that the current situation and the future are what is important. A&E services are under pressure. Attendances went up by 2.5% last year, but in March 2025, 46,766 people waited more than 12 hours in A&E following a decision to admit before being moved to a more appropriate bed. That figure is up 8.8% on the previous year. The Government’s urgent and emergency care plan sought to improve that poor performance, but things have got worse. The latest NHS figures, from May 2026, show that more than 50,000 patients waited more than 12 hours following a decision to admit—17.1% higher than the May 2025 figure. The narrative that there was a problem but now things are getting better is not necessarily accurate. We keep being told that waiting lists are coming down, but they are higher than they were a month ago, and for those waiting for an admission or procedure, they are than they were a month ago and higher than they were a year ago.

[Dr Prinsley]

I wonder whether the hon. Member remembers that in 2010, when I believe there was an election—[Interruption.] Yes. The point I wish to make is that at the end of the previous Conservative Government, before Labour came back into office, waiting lists had reached an absolute record. Under the previous Labour Administration, waiting lists came down to almost nothing, but after 2010 they crept up and up, and by the time of the election in 2024 they had reached a record. I think she will recognise that Labour Governments have had strong records of reducing waiting lists, which is what we are doing now. We are only getting started, but it would be good to have some words of encouragement.

[Dr Johnson]

I am always happy to encourage the hon. Gentleman; I hope that in the impending reshuffle, he is given the opportunity to put his experience into practice. I have one word for him: pandemic. The pandemic made a huge difference to the numbers on waiting lists, and there is no current pandemic. It is possible to make arguments about whether the Government at the time—I was not in the Government at the time—were too harsh in their policies around elective care, whether patients would have come into hospitals for elective operations during covid or whether they would have preferred not to, and whether the waiting lists grew more than they may have done in other circumstances, but to try to say that the pandemic had no effect is going a stretch too far.

[Karin Smyth]

To correct the shadow Minister, I do not think my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket said that; he said the waiting lists have gone up. To be clear, in case her memory eludes her again, they were at 4 million before the pandemic and the Conservative party—her party, whose manifesto she stood on—did not meet a single target since before 2015. That is important for people to remember: 4 million people were on waiting lists before the pandemic started. The NHS went into crisis under the Conservatives’ leadership. Even if the hon. Member for Isle of Wight East thinks it is tedious to remind them of their record, no member of the public thinks it is tedious; they will never be forgiven for that record.

[Dr Johnson]

I think what members of the public want is the people who are in government now to do something to improve their lives. I am in danger of repeating myself, which could present an extra concern when so many people are questioning my memory, but there has been a 2.5% increase in the number of A&E attendances, but a 17.1% increase in the number of people waiting more than 12 hours after a decision to admit. That suggests that the Government are not going in the right direction. The public may enjoy a history lesson from time to time, but what they really want to know is what is happening now to make their lives better. I am sure the Minister will give us the answer to that in her summing up, but at the moment the Government are not bringing down the long waits in A&E.

Let me return to the new clauses. Corridor care needs a whole-pathway approach. In last night’s debate we talked about the importance of preventing admissions—I know that is one of the Government’s shifts—in order to increase hospital capacity. The hon. Gentleman for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket talked about capacity and the number of beds having reduced over a long period—another history lesson—but when my mum had me, a good few years ago, it was common for women to stay in hospital for quite a long time after having their child, and it was quite common for people to stay in bed for many days after having an operation. We now know that it is better for people to be up and about, and people leave hospital more quickly. That is a good thing. The reason for bed numbers coming down over successive Governments of different parties is clinical as well as managerial. I think that is worth saying.

Will the Minister answer a question that I asked in last night’s debate but, unless I missed it, she did not answer in her summing up? Does the NHS have more beds now than it did when Labour came to power in July 2024, or fewer? I believe the answer is fewer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Prinsley]

rose—

[Dr Johnson]

I will come to the hon. Gentleman in a minute, but I need to answer my right hon. Friend’s question first. My right hon. Friend has a much better memory than me—I was much younger then—so I am sure his statistics will be accurate.

[Dr Prinsley]

I think the principal reduction that the right hon. Member for Melton and Syston described was a result of the change of practice in the way that psychiatry was managed. During that period, we closed the asylums—large hospitals on the outskirts of almost every town and city. That was the result of a change in clinical practice—the idea that patients should be managed within the community. However, we continued to close acute beds, and it is the acute beds in the district general hospitals that are the problem we are talking about.

[Dr Johnson]

I think we are going back full circle to the hon. Gentleman’s intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon, when he suggested that the problem was that beds had historically been closed. Now he is making the point that there were clinical reasons why that happened, not just managerial reasons. I think that is an important thing to note.

Moving on from capacity, we also need to look at the workforce. I would be grateful if the Minister could tell us how soon “imminent” is in terms of the workforce plan. There was also a point picked up earlier—I cannot remember who picked it up; it might have been the hon. Member for North Shropshire—about discharge from hospital and pharmacies. One of the challenges that I find as a clinician is that hospital pharmacies often close relatively early, which means that it is more difficult to discharge patients in the evening. That is something for the Minister to look at. There is also, of course, the importance of social care, and ensuring the provision of social care beds both to prevent admission and to get people out of hospital as quickly as is safely possible.

That is the background to this group of new clauses. New clause 12, in the name of the hon. Member for North Shropshire, would require a report on corridor care to be produced six months after the passage of the Act, and then every 12 months, containing data at the hospital, trust and ICB level on the number of individuals receiving care in an inappropriate place. That seems sensible data to collect, but I believe the Government may already to be collecting it; the Minister may be able to enlighten us on that. The report would also set out the steps taken in that year to reduce the number of patients in inappropriate care spaces, the plans for the coming year to reduce that number further—as I said, it is going up at the moment—and the funding allocated to that. There is some sense to that. Then the Secretary of State would have to give evidence in front of a panel, called the “corridor care tribunal”, which would include patients, affected families and impacted NHS staff, who would be selected by Healthwatch and NHS royal colleges.

I have just a couple of points on that. One is that Healthwatch will be abolished by the Bill, which would make that challenging—perhaps the new clause would need to be redrafted. Also, I am a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and an NHS consultant paediatrician and, as far as I am aware, the royal colleges are independent of the national health service. They are separate; they are connected in terms of training, standards and advice, but I believe that they are organisationally independent. I am sure that the Minister will correct me if I have got that wrong.

I wonder whether the hon. Member for North Shropshire has considered whether the Health and Social Care Committee, which is elected and politically balanced, might be the right body to scrutinise those Government plans. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight East, who is a member of the Select Committee, is not here now, but—

[Gregory Stafford]

I am, too.

[Dr Johnson]

Sorry; I forgot. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon will tell me if I am wrong, but that is an elected Select Committee, with political balance, that is set up specifically to scrutinise the work of the Department of Health and Social Care. If the Department is working to try to reduce the number of patients receiving corridor care, and to measure it, it seems to me that the right organisation to scrutinise that work is already in place: the Health and Social Care Committee. I therefore think this measure would be a duplication. However, I understand the need to get patient voice into the picture; that is why it is unfortunate that the Government are choosing to abolish Healthwatch, which I think would do that very effectively.

New clause 56, also in the name of the Member for North Shropshire, talks about A&E waiting times. I will start by saying that we all want A&E waiting times to be shorter—we all want people to be seen quickly and do not want patients to suffer—so the intent behind this proposal, to get people seen more quickly, is obviously a good one.

However, the new clause would require, within six months, provision to be made requiring

“every patient to be admitted into an Accident and Emergency Department within 12 hours of approval of their admission being made.”

I have a question about the wording of that, because my understanding is that someone is admitted to A&E when the decision is made to admit them to A&E and they become an A&E patient. I wonder whether the hon. Lady intends it to mean admission to an appropriate bed, whether in the trust or elsewhere. Usually, people waiting in corridors or in A&E are waiting for admission to the ward, rather than for someone to make a decision.

New clause 56 would also require the Secretary of State to establish and implement an A&E scheme to help trusts to achieve that requirement, and provides that the scheme must consider creating safety nets, step-down beds and a dedicated workforce plan for A&E—it will be nice to see the workforce plan, which the Government are supposed to have written—and mandating the presence of a “qualified clinician” in the waiting room. Will the hon. Member for North Shropshire tell the Committee what she means by a qualified clinician? Does she mean a consultant, a senior nurse or a healthcare assistant? What sort of qualifications does she think that they must have? The Secretary of State must also have regard to Baroness Casey’s report, but that is not due to be written in time for the new clause, which creates a little tension. However, again, I agree with the principle that social care is important in this context.

In summary, the principle of new clause 56 is good and important, but I think that there are some issues with the drafting of it. New clause 84 in my name, which has been well covered by my colleagues, would just require the publication of data. In her speech earlier, the hon. Member for North Shropshire gave a figure of 15,000, but I looked back at Hansard and last night she said that the Royal College of Emergency Medicine reported that long waits caused 15,860 deaths. That figure tells us what a serious problem this is. Being able to measure that figure and, I hope, see it falling would be a helpful step.

Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Emma Foody.)