Oral Answers to Questions

Bill Grant Excerpts

Monday 10th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Nokes]

My hon. Friend rightly raises the Government’s concern that allowing children to sponsor close family members might create incentives for more children to be encouraged or even forced to leave their families and risk a hazardous journey to the UK in order to sponsor relatives at a later date. I am sure he agrees that we absolutely want to avoid that because it could play into the hands of criminal gangs already exploiting vulnerable people.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

6. What plans he has for the UK's future immigration system.

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sajid Javid)]

In December 2018 the Government set out their proposals for a future immigration system in a White Paper, “The UK’s future skills-based immigration system”. The new system will be focused on those with the skills that the country needs, who will bring the most benefit to the United Kingdom.

[Bill Grant]

My constituency needs migrant workers to support local industry—particularly, but not exclusively, in the health, hospitality, fishing and farming sectors. Will my right hon. Friend reassure my constituents that there will be sufficient flexibility in any post-Brexit immigration system to allow those sectors to flourish?

[Sajid Javid]

I am happy to give my hon. Friend that reassurance. We recognise that the future system must work for the valuable industries that make this nation great. We are working with many businesses and employers, including some in the sectors that my hon. Friend has listed, to ensure there is proper engagement which will achieve precisely what he has described.

Migration Advisory Committee

Bill Grant Excerpts

Tuesday 30th April 2019 Westminster Hall

[George Eustice]

My hon. Friend makes a crucial point, which I was going to come on to. The Migration Advisory Committee is trying to be too clever by half, rather than just making a straightforward assessment of the industries that have labour shortages, trying to assess what those shortages are as best it can, and setting a figure for the appropriate tier 3 or tier 2 provision, so that we can get the right people into those industries. Instead, the committee has gone off on a frolic of its own in trying to outline a plan to socially engineer a solution to what economists call the productivity puzzle.

As a Minister, I was deeply disappointed when the Migration Advisory Committee’s final report concluded in autumn 2018. I thought it was very poor and told us nothing new. Frankly, it read a bit like a student’s dissertation. It was a trot round the course of rather standard economic theories of comparative advantage and so on. I suppose that reflected the fact that it was ultimately written by economists and academics, who do not have real-world experience. At the heart of that report was undoubtedly an economist’s obsession with abstract theories of productivity—the so-called productivity puzzle to which we have to keep being subjected, because it is the current obsession of economists.

Put simply, the MAC believes that it can use immigration policy to socially engineer a solution to productivity. It recommends no provision at all for tier 3 migration—no provision for so-called lower-skilled jobs. In essence, its argument is that if we get rid of people on lower incomes and simply destroy the industries they work in, productivity will rise. It is a completely ill-conceived idea and will lead to economic contraction, which will affect particular parts of the country worse than others. Industries will be forced to close, as the committee’s report highlighted and acknowledged, but was indifferent to. Let us not forget that under Professor Manning’s world-view, the Home Secretary’s father would have been denied entry to our country. Mr Javid came here to work first in the cotton mills, and then on the buses. Had Professor Manning been in place at the time, the Home Secretary’s father would have been sent back and would not have been admitted to this country. That is a terrible indictment of the conclusions of the current MAC report.

The Migration Advisory Committee claims that its recommendations are consistent with our industrial strategy. I think that is wrong, as they violate two important principles in our industrial strategy. First, a principle of the industrial strategy is to make the UK the best place in the world to set up a business. Secondly, the strategy seeks balanced growth around the country, not growth concentrated simply in the home counties. A skills-based immigration system along the lines proposed by the Migration Advisory Committee will be bad for business and will damage and close certain industries. It will be bad for many parts of the country that depend on those industries for their wealth generation, including whole supply chains.

As I said, Brexit changes things fundamentally. We have to own this space assertively. We have to learn to value people who work on lower incomes and might have fewer formal qualifications, but who do vital work—be it in hospitality, agriculture or caring environments, and so on. First, we need to reform the Migration Advisory Committee so that we can give the Home Office better advice.

I conclude with two requests of the Minister. First, since the Migration Advisory Committee is an ad hoc committee and not established in statute, I see no reason why its current membership could not be extended to, say, 10 or 12 individuals. They are paid a day rate for attendance; it is not a salaried position. The Minister has an opportunity right now to extend the Migration Advisory Committee and broaden its skills base.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

Immigration is very important to Scotland, and I notice the absence of my colleagues from the Scottish National party. It is a very important area not just for Scotland, but for the whole of the UK. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a very narrow field to have a team of economists dealing with such an important issue? We surely must have the voice of others—particularly business, the National Farmers Union in Scotland and in England and Wales, and, as he mentioned, trade unions. We need to have some mechanism whereby these people are heard and the real needs of these industries, including hospitality, the NHS, fishing and farming, are truly heard. I doubt whether any of those economists understands the need throughout the UK, particularly in Scotland.

[George Eustice]

My hon. Friend makes a vital point, which is the thrust of my argument: we cannot have a coherent policy by relying just on the opinions of economists. They will give a particular perspective—cut and pasted out of a textbook—but it will not actually be ground truth; it will not be rooted in the real economy. Up and down the country, real businesses are taking decisions not to invest, not to expand and not to create new jobs, because they cannot get people to fill the vacancies that they have in their business as it stands. The stance against so-called low-skilled immigration is actually damaging our economy already, and we need to recognise that.

I have a second request of the Minister. As I said, I note that she recently took the opportunity simply to reappoint, I think, two members of the Migration Advisory Committee at the end of last year. She has not taken the opportunity to refresh the team. I also understand that Professor Alan Manning has a three-year term, which, if my research is correct, ends in November. Can the Minister confirm that she will not reappoint Professor Alan Manning, that his term will end in November, and that he can then be replaced by someone who understands business?

UK Fishing Industry: Non-EEA Visas

Bill Grant Excerpts

Monday 8th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Carmichael]

That is absolutely the case. If the crews could be found in the fishing ports that the hon. Gentleman and I represent, we would not be here tonight because there would not be a problem. The fact is that for a whole variety of reasons, which have been rehearsed in the past, the crews are not there. It is difficult for the pelagic fleet and the whitefish fleet, because it pushes them out beyond territorial waters, but it makes the viability of the inshore fleet, which routinely fishes within the 12 mile limit, next to impossible.

I remind the Minister that, in July last year, she said:

“I recognise that the fishing industry will be best placed to take advantage of those future opportunities”—

that is how she earlier described the post-Brexit situation—

“if it has the workforce that it needs.”

It is manifestly still the case today, as I can see from my mailbag and email inbox, that the industry does not have the workforce it needs. The fact that there are so many hon. Members in the Chamber tonight at gone 11 o’clock bears further testimony to that.

The Minister went on to say:

“Two key points will be to the fore when we consider the industry’s future labour needs. First, as we leave the European Union, we will take back control of immigration and have an opportunity to reframe the immigration system…In making sure that that happens, we will need the best evidence available, which is why we have commissioned the independent Migration Advisory Committee to report on the economic and social impacts of the UK’s departure from the EU and on how the UK’s immigration policy should best align with the Government’s industrial strategy. The committee will report in the autumn, and the Government will take full account of its recommendations when setting out their proposals for the future immigration system.”—Official Report, 11 July 2018; Vol. 644, c. 1082.]

She went on to acknowledge the case that many of us made about the urgency of the matter—it was urgent in July last year.

I now wish to turn the House’s attention to the Migration Advisory Committee’s report of last September. The section entitled “Productivity, innovation, investment and training impacts” on page 2 of the executive summary includes an interesting paragraph—paragraph 14—which states:

“The research we commissioned showed that overall there is no evidence that migration has had a negative impact on the training of the UK-born workforce. Moreover, there is some evidence to suggest that skilled migrants have a positive impact on the quantity of training available to the UK-born workforce.”

That is a very small point, but I mention it because in the debate in July several hon. Members said that there was a real problem with the training available, and that it was because of that that we had had to resort, in the short to medium term, to bringing in non-EEA nationals.

One of the most disappointing parts of the committee’s report is that headed “Community impacts”, which is to be found on page 4 of the executive summary. It rates only nine lines, and the related part in the full report runs to some five pages only, most of which comprises graphs. It speaks about some of the issues, which the committee identifies as community impacts, and states:

“The impacts of migration on communities are hard to measure owing to their subjective nature which means there is a risk they are ignored.”

However, it goes on to talk about some things—for example, the impact on crime and on how people view their own communities—but there is not a word in that part about population levels, which is absolutely critical in most island and coastal communities to which the fishing industry is confined. There is nothing to be found about the fact that the inability of boats to go to sea has a massive impact on the shore-side industries, which in turn has a massive impact on the viability of schools, post offices and all sorts of local public services.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

Following on from that aspect, the Department’s assumption that vessels can simply be crewed by locals is indeed just not true: it cannot be done. We must have a visa system that attracts multi-skilled individuals from beyond these shores and beyond the EEA to ensure we have a fully crewed fishing fleet to do the work required of it.

[Mr Carmichael]

That is the other reason why I thought I would not bother rehearsing the arguments—I anticipated plenty of people doing so in the Chamber this evening. The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point, and I congratulate him on it. It is one I have made in the past, as have other hon. Members. It is as true today as it was in July, and it all contributes to my and my constituents’ sense of frustration that now, getting into the middle of April, we are still no further forward.

Modern Slavery and Victim Support

Bill Grant Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Westminster Hall

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith) for securing the debate.

Modern slavery is no less abhorrent than the appalling inhumanity of earlier centuries. In that era, Robert Burns described, “Man’s inhumanity to man”, which still exists to this day. As has been mentioned, William Wilberforce’s name is synonymous with the anti-slavery movement, having devoted much, if not all, of his life to the cause. In 1807, he finally convinced Parliament to prohibit the slave trade, although it was not until 1883 that there was what we believed to be a total abolition of slavery. It is unforgiveable that parts of our society have regressed to such an extent that that outlawed practice appears to have been resurrected.

Today’s victims have their personal identity documents seized by traffickers to entrap them, and they are intimidated with threatened violence should they seek freedom from what I describe as the blight of bondage. That prevents victims from reaching out for the help that should be there for them. It is unacceptable that human trafficking involving men, woman and children happens at all, that it is rife throughout many parts of our country, the United Kingdom, and that those from both within and outwith the UK are subject to it.

In 2017, there was a 38% rise in the number of trafficking referrals to Police Scotland, which I applaud for having a dedicated human trafficking unit. The force has issued advice to landlords and letting agencies to raise awareness that trafficked people often live in or are forced to work in rented properties. However, we must be alert to the potential for human trafficking on our doorstep, as has been said, and we must ensure that we as members of the public are proactive in reporting any suspicions to our respective police forces. The police cannot do it alone—they need our help to gather intelligence.

It is to be welcomed that the Scottish Government have issued “Slavery and human trafficking: guidance for businesses” and are providing funding to Migrant Help and TARA—the Trafficking Awareness Raising Alliance—which are two organisations that provide welcome support to victims of trafficking. In 2017, the Prime Minister launched a call to action to eliminate modern slavery and human trafficking. I am pleased that the call was endorsed by more than 75 other countries, which have pledged to act to eradicate such repulsive practices. Pressure must be applied on other countries and nations to end modern slavery.

I trust that all Governments will continue to play their part in tackling predatory traffickers, including by ensuring that they are swiftly brought to justice and receive sentences proportionate to their crimes, and that they will ensure that the victims receive appropriate support to recover from what I can only imagine must be a horrific set of circumstances to experience and live in. I reinforce that by specifically asking the Minister to work with others to bring an end to the scourge that is modern slavery and to introduce legislation to assist in achieving that worthwhile and important goal.

Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme

Bill Grant Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Westminster Hall

[Alex Norris]

A couple of them are just for you to autograph to put on eBay, Mr Owen. I am sure the Minister will not mind my gobbling a little of his time so his colleagues may make interventions.

The point raised by the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately) makes my heart bleed a bit. By raising our standards—whether on pay, accommodation or the nature of work or management—to ensure that we attract those workers, we would make Britain a beacon that would attract the best. That can be only a good thing. It would mean the market was working well, and I would be keen for that to happen.

I worry about sources of money. People like us go to banks to get loans; too often our constituents go to loan sharks. The people we are talking about are likely to enter debt bondage. A recruiter offers the chance to enter the scheme and says, “Don’t worry about the upfront cost and your flights,” but that turns into an inflated or artificial debt that people never actually work off. That happens around the world, but in our country, too, there is a very live risk. It cannot be right that about half the victims of forced labour in the private economy are in some sort of debt bondage, according to the International Labour Organisation. We must not defer our responsibility as a country for ensuring that that does not happen to whichever recruitment firms we work with. We cannot give away our responsibility.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

I share the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about slavery and allowing gangmasters to flourish in any migration system we create. To temper that, among Ayrshire vegetable growers there is a great relationship between the employer and the migrant worker on accommodation and rates of pay. Surely, we need to encourage a system to ensure that that continues to thrive, for the benefit of the industry and the individuals who choose to work in the UK.

Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Bill Grant Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons & Ways and Means resolution: House of Commons
Monday 28th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Newlands]

My hon. Friend makes a good point.

When confronted with these alternative facts as portrayed in the media and by some hon. Members here, who can actually blame some people for agreeing to what amounted to a quick fix? The difference between the attitude and actions of the Scottish Government and the Westminster Government following the referendum in 2016 was stark. Immediately after the result was announced, the First Minister of Scotland gave an open-hearted address to EU citizens and the message was crystal clear—“We want you to come to Scotland and we want you to stay”—whereas the Tories spoke of bargaining chips.

Scotland rejected the false promises, the hate-filled rhetoric and the lies. We did this because something greater is being offered in our country. In Scotland, the largest party has been proudly in favour of immigration and freedom of movement. Some politicians in this place are scared to follow this example, but it can be an easy argument to win; they just have to make it. I say to the Leader of the Opposition and some on his Benches that politicians are here not merely to follow public opinion, but to lead it—to persuade and debate the merits of a policy, not to cower meekly in the corner desperately waiting for 29 March to come and go. That is not leadership. It is a total abdication of responsibility.

Freedom of movement is the greatest achievement that we have reached together in the European Union, and it is the single greatest reason why we must remain members. Programmes such as Erasmus allow for an unprecedented exchange of ideas between the students who populate Europe’s rich universities. Millions of people from the UK’s constituent nations, including many Scots, choose to retire to quiet lives on the Mediterranean and millions of others travel across the continent, taking in Europe’s vast cultural heritage. Others have built careers abroad in every conceivable field, allowing us to advance every aspect of our shared society.

Just before the withdrawal agreement, I made a call on social media for people to tell me their stories and experiences of freedom of movement. During the withdrawal agreement debate, I raised the story of Ivan and his family. Ivan was born in Spain, studied in Italy and has worked all over Scotland in Scotland’s NHS. He met his Irish wife, who then went on to work in Denmark. They have had two daughters born in Scotland—one with an Irish passport and one with a Spanish passport, but both indisputably Scottish.

I have other constituents with similar experiences. My constituent Emma Hendrie is a 21-year-old student who studied for a semester at Ghent University in Belgium. Once her fellow students got past her apparently strong Paisley accent, she became lifelong friends with people from Europe and beyond. Alison Hughes lived in the Netherlands on two different occasions, which was a great experience for her children and her family, who got to meet other children from all over the world. Mark Harold emigrated to Lithuania in 2005 to work on music projects, and stayed for many years. Mark was eventually elected to the city council and is now the night mayor of Vilnius; he is the only non-citizen to have sworn on the Lithuanian constitution. Sandra and Steve Murray wrote to me to tell me their story of making a new home in a small village on the French-Spanish border that is populated by Spanish, French, German, Dutch, Belgian, English, Irish and Swedish people, as well as people from many other nations. Their only wish was that the UK would adopt the Scottish view that we all want the same things—peace, equality and opportunity.

This is what we are about to lose. How can we in this place rip this from our young people, who voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU? How can we rip Scotland out of the free movement area when the Scottish people overwhelmingly voted to continue to have this freedom? My message today is this: I understand that millions of people across England are disillusioned with politics and are yearning for something better, and I am sorry that there is no major party that can help them at this point. I do not blame them for their anger; I am often angry about the situation myself.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

rose—

[Gavin Newlands]

I would give way but I am conscious that others want to speak, and I am coming to the end of my speech.

Scotland does have an alternative: Scotland voted to remain. I hope that colleagues across the House will reject this Bill and ultimately give people a chance to have the final say. I also reiterate that immigration powers must be devolved to Scotland so that we can get on with building an open and welcoming immigration system that works in the interests of Scotland. However, it would seem that Scotland’s interests are now wholly incompatible with those of the rest of the UK. That leads to the only clear solution—to become like every other normal country and secure our independence so that we might forge that better future.

To conclude, perhaps on a note of consensus, we have just marked Robert Burns Day, so I would like to ask hon. Members to reflect on some words from Scotland’s immortal bard—not “parcel of rogues”, although rarely would that particular verse have been more apt, but this:

“For a’ that, an’ a’ that,

It's coming yet for a’ that,

That Man to Man, the world o’er,

Shall brothers be for a’ that.”

Firefighters: Mental Health Support

Bill Grant Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2018 Westminster Hall

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Sir Roger.

I thank the hon. Member for Kensington (Emma Dent Coad) for raising this very important issue. I do not have a confession, but from the outset I have to declare an interest—that would be the best phrase—as I served for 31 years with Strathclyde Fire and Rescue Service, and it was a proud journey through my working life. In retirement, I became a local councillor who sat on the fire board, so I continue to have a great fondness and a great respect for the firefighters of today, although I am—quite clearly, for those who can see me—a firefighter from yesterday. I joined in 1974 and served until 2005.

Frontline firefighters—whether they are whole-time, retained or volunteer firefighters—who respond to emergencies, and those with specialist roles within the fire service such as fire investigators, frequently encounter seriously injured or even fatally injured persons in their day-to-day work. Preservation of the scene, particularly if it is a potential crime scene, may mean that anyone who is declared medically deceased must remain in situ, with firefighters having to work in close proximity to them.

Some incidents result in multiple fatalities. I will touch on some in the west of Scotland, but there are many others that I could cite between John O’Groats and Land’s End. For example, there was the Chinook disaster on the Mull of Kintyre, in which 29 individuals died. The first responding appliances to that incident were carrying retained personnel; they were not full-time professionals, but men and women who held down everyday jobs. There was the Lockerbie air disaster, in which 270 persons lost their life, 11 of whom were in the town of Lockerbie, particularly but not exclusively in Sherwood Crescent. Again, the first responding appliances to that disaster were carrying retained personnel, and I absolutely applaud the work that retained personnel do. There was the Rosepark care home fire in Uddingston not so very long ago, in which 14 residents died, and that was a modern facility, and there was the Stockline plastics factory explosion in Glasgow, which was attended by whole-time personnel; nine people died in that fire. That is to name but a few incidents, none of which I personally attended. However, having been part of the fire service, I have followed the stories about them with great interest.

There are also incidents that firefighters endure in which our colleagues are injured, or even fatally injured, in fires. It does not happen that often, but when it does, what a sad and dark day it is. We can even go way back to the Cheapside disaster in Glasgow in the late 1960s, in which I think 15 firefighters and four salvage personnel lost their life. That was an exceptionally horrific incident, but we have improved safety a lot since then.

Such repeated experiences without appropriate ongoing support from external counsellors or medical professionals may result in some firefighters and other emergency responders—I do not exclude other emergency responders who suffer similar pressures—succumbing to stress-related illness, leading to absence from work and, in the worst cases, to their being medically retired; indeed, as the hon. Member for Kensington said, they may even lead to firefighters taking their own life, which in itself is an absolute tragedy.

Believe me: firefighters give their all at incidents, both physically and mentally. They have to be constantly alert at an ongoing incident—alert for their own safety; for the safety of their colleagues; and for the safety of the general public. If the outcome of an incident is not what firefighters would wish for, their initial adrenalin rush turns to what I would describe as a devastating disappointment that they have not achieved their goal or what they had hoped for. Their bodies and minds must cope with sudden emotional changes.

There are also occasions when the judicial process exacerbates firefighters’ exposure to potential stressors, in that the police and, in Scotland, the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service may be reluctant for immediate debriefs of crews to take place until they have met with individuals and taken their statements, to ensure that their evidence is not compromised. It is an added stress when firefighters have to speak to people in authority about what has taken place. We have seen on our televisions the grilling of some of the officers at the Grenfell fire. Those individuals did their very best that night, yet they are being grilled through the courts service and various inquiries.

Debriefs have immense value, not simply so that crews can learn lessons in relation to how an incident went—what they could have done better, and so on—but to provide individuals with the opportunity to express their feelings to their peers. They may not wish to burden—or may not be able to burden—their family and friends with those feelings, or confidentiality might prevent them from offloading those concerns on those outwith the service. All of these things may be worse for retained or volunteer firefighters, who live in the very communities that they serve; on many occasions, they may know the victims of an incident.

I will touch on two poignant road traffic crashes that illustrate that. In one incident, a firefighter said hello to four young individuals at a shopping centre in a small town. He knew the four individuals and their parents. An hour after a courteous conversation with the four individuals, his pager was activated and he responded to a road traffic crash in which two of those young individuals had died. As one would expect, he conducted himself professionally, but weeks, if not months, later that incident came back to haunt him. I am pleased to say that he received assistance from Strathclyde Fire and Rescue Service, and he made a full recovery.

There was another incident that had a good outcome. The driver of a retained appliance approached a road traffic crash and spotted his wife’s car; it was his wife who was trapped. As I say, there was a good outcome, as she made a full recovery. I attended that incident and it was quite a tense situation. I give credit again to those who serve their own community.

[John Howell]

What my hon. Friend is saying is very powerful. Does he believe that there is more that the fire service can do—I encourage my own local fire stations to do this—to have public exhibitions of what they do and show how they go about their work, because once the public understand that, there is a tremendous amount of additional support for the fire service and for the actions that they take? It would help if we gave firefighters a lot more encouragement to do that.

[Bill Grant]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Yes, a lot is already being done to encourage people and to raise awareness. The fire service in Scotland used to have an annual event at the old Strathclyde regional station, with the slogan, “Reckless driving wrecks lives”, where we brought along fifth and sixth-year schoolchildren. All the emergency services took part. We also make home safety visits now and we are very much part of the team that tries to prevent these events before they happen, through accident and fire reduction. Also, let us not forget the introduction of a very simple thing in people’s homes, which is the smoke detector. In Scotland, we fit them free of charge for anyone who approaches us, and they are worth their weight in gold; they are very effective. A lot has been done on the preventive side. It is a failure if the fire engine goes out; we should prevent all the fires and reduce the number of accidents.

Recently, while out driving in my constituency with a staff member, I turned to them and told them that we had just passed the site of a fatal road accident. The accident had happened 30 to 35 years ago, but decades later I could still vividly envisage the two deceased persons in that vehicle. What triggered that, I really do not know. For some people, there will be no trigger; regrettably, an incident will live with them and haunt them for the rest of their lives constantly. I am able to put such an experience back in the box and reflect on it; perhaps I am very fortunate in that way.

It is so important that rescuers themselves do not become later in life the people who have to be rescued from extensive mental trauma. Let us be proactive and protect, to the best of our abilities, our firefighters from mental trauma or mental harm. The Health and Safety Executive defines stress as

“the adverse reaction people have to excessive pressure or other types of demand placed upon them.”

That can apply to a lot of emergency responders, including the police, but it applies to firefighters in particular.

Most people, including most firefighters, can cope with the challenge of work demands, but when other life pressures are added accumulatively—for example, debt problems or marital problems—sometimes it just gets too much to bear and a tipping point is reached. Many workplaces offer stress management courses. In my time in the service, we introduced welfare officers as far back as the 1990s, along with external counselling. I am sure that continues today, probably in an improved way. Many workplaces also have in-house occupational health staff. The hon. Member for Kensington mentioned the fire service benevolent fund, which has been going for more than 100 years and is now called the Fire Fighters Charity. It offers invaluable support through its psychological rehabilitation service for serving and retired firefighters.

While people may be screened and tested for underlying illnesses, susceptibility to stress, as I understand it, may not be immediately apparent and the individual themselves may not know or wish to admit—that is one of the very sad things, and it was a very male-dominated service when I was in it, although I am pleased to report that that was changing for the better when I left—that their illness may be stress-related, given the previous stigma around mental health issues. To some degree that stigma remains.

When we see someone with an injury to their leg or a broken arm, we can see the physical injury, but we cannot see or feel a mental injury. Firefighters may wrongly perceive such an admission as a weakness on their part. It certainly is not. According to the mental health charity Mind, 37% of firefighters think colleagues would treat them differently in a negative way if they conceded or admitted that they had a mental health issue. The black humour and banter of my days—days gone by, fortunately; it is no longer politically correct, and that is quite right—was once a release valve and coping mechanism behind closed doors for firefighters, but they still have the camaraderie and they still work as a team. That is a form of therapy in itself, and it has immense value. When a whole-time firefighter returns to the station, they have that group. It is different for retained and volunteer firefighters. They return to their partners and wives individually, and that gives a different dimension to the situation.

According to Mind, 85% of people in the fire and rescue services—it is an inordinately high number—experiences stress and poor health at work. They are twice as likely as the wider workforce to identify problems at work as the main cause for their stress. Statistics obtained by Members of the Scottish Parliament through a freedom of information request indicated that in 2016, 137 employees of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service—firefighters, control room staff and support staff—were recorded as taking sick leave due to stress. Regrettably, those figures appear to be on the rise, as the figure for those recording stress as a reason for absence was 77 in 2015 and only 27 employees in 2014. That is despite an apparent fall in the number of fires and incidents. We are doing well on fires, but we have got road accidents, factory accidents and farming accidents—there is a whole range of special services. We need to discover what has changed since 2014. What are the root causes and contributing factors? Most importantly, we need to address them.

An article in a recent Fire Brigades Union magazine, Firefighter—I am an out-of-trade member and I still receive it—highlighted a need for ring-fencing moneys within NHS budgets for mental health. That is a prudent thing to request. The Prime Minister said last year:

“I want to use the power of the government as a force for good to transform the way we deal with mental health problems right across society, and at every stage of life. Tackling the injustice and reducing the stigma associated with mental health conditions is a priority for me, which is why today I set the goal of providing 1 million members of the public with basic mental health awareness and first aid.”

That goal has to be welcomed. I understand that NHS England got a top-up of £50 million over five years, which is most welcome, but I do not know whether that will be enough to address the issues and the incident of Grenfell, the consequences of which will be felt for years to come, sadly.

When we consider how much it costs to train and equip a firefighter, together with the potential costs of their ill-health, such as absence or early retirement—they may even go to the extreme of taking their life—surely it makes economic sense to invest in appropriate support measures. Firefighters are the finest example of an asset to society. They serve it on a daily basis, and they must be properly supported. Should they stretch out their hand for help, we must grasp it and give that help. Better still, let us prevent them from needing to do that in the first place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Emma Dent Coad) on securing the debate. I am pleased that she was successful in applying for it. In view of her expertise, given that the Grenfell disaster happened in her constituency, no Member is better placed to lead the debate.

When I took the shadow fire and emergency services post, I wanted to visit as many fire services as possible to learn at first hand what firefighters’ main concerns are. I expected to hear about problems with funding, staffing, pay and pensions, but I was taken aback by the deep concern about mental health. Firefighters are on the frontline. It is their job to deal with life-threatening situations. I acknowledge that it is highly demanding and stressful work, but it is also invaluable for our communities. Mind, the mental health charity, has done some great work in supporting firefighters through its blue light programme. Its workplace criteria for identifying the potential for mental illness correspond to the risks that are posed to firefighters daily: the repeated exposure to traumatic events, the potential for physical injuries, workload pressures, suffering loss, and worries about money. Invoking those criteria helps to explain why the potential for mental illness in the fire service is extremely high. The distinct lack of direct central Government action and focus, when the evidence is clear, is astonishing.

I acknowledge that the responsibility for ensuring the health and safety of firefighters rests with individual fire and rescue authorities, and the Chief Fire Officers Association supports them in that work through its lead on fire and rescue occupational health matters. I am sure the Government will point to the commitment of £7 million to pay for mental health support through Mind’s blue light programme. That is positive, but in 2017 the number of fire and rescue staff taking long-term sick leave because of mental illness had risen by nearly a third over the previous six years. Mind has found that 85% of fire and rescue personnel have experienced stress and poor mental health at work, and firefighters are twice as likely to identify problems at work as the main cause of their mental health problems. However, that does not only affect the firefighters; there is a big impact on their families.

Fire services work hard to ensure that the support infrastructure is available. I have heard of brilliant examples of that happening, including in the London Fire Brigade and Tyne and Wear Fire and Rescue Service, but the evidence shows that more has to be done to provide support to fire services. I do not doubt that the Government have acted, but any action cannot be separated from their wider attack on the service. Their ideologically-based austerity agenda has put more pressure on emergency services, and firefighters are bearing the burden. I am told time and again by the Minister that the number of fire incidents is decreasing but, as we know, that is not the full story. The overall number of incidents that the fire service responds to has decreased by 12.6% between 2010 and 2018. However, 11,854 firefighters have been cut in the same period, which equates to 20% of frontline staff. Therefore, on average we have fewer staff responding to more incidents, and incidents have risen every year since 2014. Workload pressures have increased over the past eight years, and if the Government want to be effective they must consider a staffing review as part of their policy to address mental health issues.

The effects of sustained cuts have put a considerable amount of pressure on the workforce, but that pressure is also changing. National discussions are being held regarding the expansion of the role of the firefighter to include emergency medical response. That may be a positive step if it is properly funded and if training is made readily available. However, I am not optimistic that central Government will ensure that that happens. I am not opposed on principle to EMR, but it must be properly funded. It will increase firefighters’ exposure to traumatic events and potential of losses of life. If they are not prepared for that change, it could be catastrophic for their mental health.

As a nurse, I saw such events at first hand. I assure Members that if someone is not prepared to deal with such incidents, the consequences for their wellbeing could be devastating. I was a cardiac nurse for 12 years and had an advanced life support qualification. I used to carry a cardiac arrest bleeper, and we used to run across the hospital to arrests. At that time—this is going back five to 10 years—the success rate was about 20% of resuscitations. That was in hospital, so we were getting there quickly. When a firefighter arrives at a cardiac arrest more time will have gone between what we used to call down time and the start of resuscitation, so the chances of success will be lower. At least we were successful a proportion of the time. By virtue of the way their work will happen in the community, the firefighters will see more fatalities; they will have to deal with that regularly, so it is an even more important factor in their mental health.

[Bill Grant]

I thank the hon. Lady for her good work in cardiac services. That was in a controlled, measured environment, but the challenge for firefighters and ambulance personnel is that they operate in a quite unnatural environment, whether they are attending an accident at a farm or factory, or a car accident. They are exposed to the weather and elements, and there are other road users, and so on. That is an added dimension; it is not a controlled environment, although we would do our best to control it on arrival.

[Karen Lee]

Absolutely. I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. After someone has attended an arrest situation unsuccessfully, they go through an algorithm and they know they have done everything properly, but they still feel bad about losing that person. My point is that going to more arrests with a lower likelihood of success—because of all the things that the hon. Gentleman mentioned—involves much greater pressure. When I was a nurse we had occupational health, and there has to be something like that for firefighters—proper support.

I have been told numerous times during visits that firefighters have less time to train because of their workload. That is another thing that is very important. People going to an arrest must feel they know what they are doing. I am very concerned at the possibility that if outstanding issues are not fully addressed and firefighters are not effectively prepared for a sustained change in their role and responsibilities, their wellbeing could be damaged.

Our firefighters are heroes, and their pay must be properly addressed. As I have said time and again, they cannot spend a pat on the back. Mind has identified money worries as a contributing factor to mental illness, and considering the sacrifices made by our firefighters, the last worry they should have should be about their pay packet at the end of the month—my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington made a good point about some firefighters needing a second job, which is utterly disgraceful.

The Grenfell disaster and its consequences for our firefighters are terrible. The work that the Fire Brigades Union and the London Fire Brigade are doing to support firefighters is outstanding, and includes support for the 80 fire officers giving oral statements at the Grenfell inquiry. As the “Journey of Recovery” report highlighted, alongside all those affected, firefighters who were at the scene may be at risk of PTSD. The consequences are clear: stress and depression have been identified as the main source of LFB sick leave post Grenfell. I commend the Government’s commitment of £50 million to tackle mental health post Grenfell, but what proportion of that money will specifically be invested in support for LFB firefighters? Eighteen months after Grenfell, those firefighters still line the route every month for the silent vigil, and they are to be commended.

I do not accuse the Government of not caring, but I believe that more could be done, and they must recognise that cuts to central Government funding and staffing levels have a subsequent effect on a workforce. Let us not get into the old argument about allocated and unallocated resources, or who is responsible for austerity—the fire service must be properly resourced. I recognise that the Minister has asked Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services to assess how well services understand and meet the wellbeing needs of their workforce, and how that can be improved. Will he provide an update on that and say when we can expect additional investment or support? How much of the £7 million committed to Mind’s blue light programme is included in existing fire service resources, and how much is new money? I look forward to hearing his response.

Oral Answers to Questions

Bill Grant Excerpts

Monday 29th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

May I seek an assurance from the Minister that any revised immigration policy will reflect the needs of the farming and fishing community in Scotland and indeed the whole UK?

[Sajid Javid]

I can give my hon. Friend that assurance, and that was one reason why we recently launched a pilot for a seasonal workers agricultural scheme for 2019.

Windrush

Bill Grant Excerpts

Tuesday 4th September 2018 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Nokes]

Given the commitment in successive general election manifestos that have been endorsed by the public, it is absolutely imperative to reduce immigration to sustainable levels. As part of that, we have a compliant environment, which makes sure that people who are in this country illegally are not entitled to access the benefits and services that those who are here legally can.

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that analysis of the Windrush cases reveals problems over many years under successive Governments, and that this Government will resolve those problems?

[Caroline Nokes]

My hon. Friend is right to point that out. These issues have occurred over successive Governments and many years. This Government are absolutely determined to make sure we put right those wrongs.

Non-EEA Visas: Inshore Fishing

Bill Grant Excerpts

Tuesday 17th July 2018 Westminster Hall

[Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) for securing this important debate on fishing fleets around the UK.

The fishermen I have met in Ayrshire and at Westminster have advised me that the fishing industry is having difficulty attracting workers from within the UK to join fleets. It is expensive to operate and maintain a fishing vessel, and few skippers can afford to have their boats tied up at the quayside for any length of time, particularly when that is because of the lack of experienced and skilled crew members. Succession planning for a skilled labour force in the fishing industry undoubtedly has its challenges, particularly given that the younger generation, whether family members or from outwith the family circle, do not always see it as an attractive career. There is a perception among some people, rightly or wrongly, that the current generation is put off by the early starts, the fact that there are no guaranteed return times, the unpredictable weather conditions and the hard graft that is undoubtedly involved in going to sea. It would not be seen by their friends as a “cool” occupation. Yet, as many in the Chamber know, it can be a very rewarding career.

Regrettably, careers advice sessions nowadays are not likely to focus on fishing as an occupation. Perhaps we should encourage people to go to sea and earn a living as their forefathers did. Yet schools focus on healthy eating, and the health service promotes to the public the importance of vitamin D, of which I understand fish is an excellent source. Local workers, across the age range, may turn out in the summer months, when the money is good, the weather is better and it is safer at sea. However, skippers go out in all seasons and need to be able to rely on dedicated, skilled and capable crew members.

Given the succession and recruitment difficulties, many fishermen who own their boats seek to employ migrant workers, often from the Philippines, who have previously gained experience from having worked in their country of origin on tuna fishing boats. They are said to have a can-do attitude to work, and to be skilled and reliable employees. In his recent Adjournment debate on the subject, the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) highlighted the fact that 800 non-EEA nationals are employed in the catching sector in the UK. However, work permits and visas prove problematic for Filipino workers and for others from the Indian ocean and south sea islands.

It is important that the Government—and it lies with them, as the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Angus Brendan MacNeil) said—should consider liaising with, and building on the previous involvement of, the relevant foreign embassies. I understand that those embassies assisted with seaman’s books to facilitate migrants’ compliance with the law. In the past, discretionary visas, which I believe were issued for two years, attracted those workers, who were happy to come to the UK, including Scotland. On visas, skippers of boats were obliged to provide onshore accommodation and confirm the condition of their boats, as is quite right. They should be safe—and they are, in the majority of, if not all, cases. I understand that the issuing of such visas may have ended simply because a small minority of workers failed to respect the requirement to return home. However, why should that failure condemn the majority who did faithfully comply and whose services proved to be an invaluable asset to the skippers and the fishing industry? Transit visas are currently available, but they restrict such non-EEA nationals to working outwith the 12-mile limit. The very term “inshore fishing vessels” reflects the fact that not all vessels are suitable to go further afield. Also, the best catch at any given time may not be beyond the 12-mile limit.

If the fishing industry is to survive—that opportunity awaits—and, indeed, prosper and more boats are not to languish in harbours, we must take action. That cannot be tomorrow or the next day, or in September or October. We need that action now, to facilitate such workers’ entry, employment, safety and welfare. Yes, of course it must be policed, regulated and enforced, but not to the detriment of our fishing fleet or of a great opportunity to sustain but also expand it. To do that, we need the workers in question to be able to join fleets in Scotland and throughout the UK. In the long term, thought should be given to encouraging young people to make a career in the industry, as used to happen. As the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar said, the numbers in fishing communities in the islands of the west coast may be dwindling, but fishing could still prove an excellent career in future. I ask the Minister to recognise and resolve the issues we are debating, without delay.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. It is that simple. If we have a willingness to do it, let us just do it. We do it for the right reasons—not just because it feels good but because it helps the industry, as those of us who represent fishing villages know. My local fishermen cannot speak highly enough of the ability and work ethic of those from the Philippines, and yet they have been prevented from utilising people who, while they may not be highly skilled on paper with degrees and letters after their name, undoubtedly have the ability and fitness for purpose that is needed.

I often quote my mother in this House. I do so because she is a very wise woman, not because she is my mother and I am her son. She is very wise. My mum often says, “Letters after your name don’t mean anything to someone whose house is flooded and needs a plumber.” Letters do not mean anything in that trade; experience and know-how do. Fishing is the same. Degrees will not be able to read the sea or the sky, but experience will. A degree does not tell someone how to catch fish, to follow fish on a boat or to stand without falling over. This is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, and we need the people to do it.

[Bill Grant]

In my discussions with local fishermen, I have found that they particularly value the Filipinos who come as migrant workers. They are far beyond labourers; they bring in immense skills, whether in engineering, safety or dealing with vessels. They bring important skills to the fishing fleet in Scotland, Northern Ireland and throughout the United Kingdom. They are more than simply labourers. They bring great skills to the fishing fleet. Does my hon. Friend agree?

[Jim Shannon]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that they bring skill; I think if the Home Office looks at this issue it will see the skills that the Filipino fishermen have. They should fall into tier 2, where we can enable them to be accepted. I think the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar is right when he says it is a simple issue. I read the same article in the paper that he did. The Home Secretary accepted that there was a methodology that justified the right for doctors and so on to come in. By the same logic, that should happen here as well, and I would like to see it take place.

We want to see the Filipino fishermen allowed in. Under the transit visa provisions, non-EEA nationals cannot come to work on vessels that operate wholly or mainly within the 12-mile limit. People who work, or employ people to work, on inshore vessels after they have come to the UK on a transit visa or sought to enter at the border to join a ship are breaking immigration law.

Even more important, prawn trawlers, for example, operate by dragging a trawl net across the seabed to catch prawns, so only certain parts of the sea can be fished. The sea off the west coast of Scotland, containing the sea of the Hebrides, the Little Minch and the Minch, is a particularly good fishing ground for langoustines, but these areas are also well within territorial waters, as is most of the sea around Northern Ireland. Prawn trawlers have one of the highest demands for non-UK crew. Therein lies a key issue for my constituents and for the constituents of other hon. Members present. The difference is down to geography and, as usual, the postcode lottery does not work in favour of my constituents.

I, along with other interested MPs— the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar and the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (David Duguid)—met with the Minister for Immigration and had a very forthright meeting, in which we tried to press collectively, from our four different parties, the importance of this issue. I know that the fishing organisations in my area are currently working hard to address the fact that, despite the demands of their difficult and often dangerous job, fishing vessel crew members are not deemed to be sufficiently skilled to fall within the ambit of tier 2. We need these workers to be elevated to tier 2, or tier 2 to drop down to that level. I feel the frustration that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar expressed; I am not always cool, but I try to make the case in such a way that people can understand the need to do it.

The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, which I sit on with other colleagues and hon. Friends, is doing an inquiry into fishing. One of our recommendations is that the issue of Filipino fishermen should be addressed. I am conscious of the time, so I will make one last comment. The Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland did a trawl—if I can use that pun—across the whole of the UK and Europe for 150 job vacancies. That is the Department, not Jim Shannon or the local councils; it was the Northern Ireland Assembly when it was functioning. We got some 30 replies to that from the whole of Europe, and only 10 applicants were suitable for interview. Eight attended the interview; six were chosen, of whom one did not turn up; five took the jobs. We have 145 jobs that Northern Ireland’s DFI cannot fill.

We have done everything we can on this. The local Assembly has tried. We now look to the Minister and the Home Office to do the same thing as for the doctors and nurses—to bring in the Filipino fishermen who would help our industry to thrive. When we are out of Europe, on 31 March 2019, we will need an industry that is able to respond to what we can do when we advance. I thank the hon. Member for Moray again for introducing this debate. Everyone is united in this. All we need now is for the Minister to say, “Yes, let’s do it.”