Welfare Reform

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 18th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat a Statement made earlier today in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, this Government are ambitious for our people and our country, and we believe that unleashing the talents of the British people is the key to our future success. But the social security system we inherited from the Conservatives is failing the very people it is supposed to help and is holding our country back.

The facts speak for themselves. One in 10 people of working age are now claiming a sickness or disability benefit. Almost 1 million young people are not in education, employment or training—that is one in eight of all our young people. Some 2.8 million are out of work due to long term sickness, and the number of people claiming personal independence payments is set to double this decade from 2 million to 4.3 million, with the growth in claims rising faster among young people and those with mental health conditions. Claims are up to four times higher in parts of the Midlands, Wales and the north where economic demand is weakest. These places were decimated in the 1980s and 1990s, written off for years by successive Tory Governments and never given the chances that they deserved.

The consequences of this failure are there for all to see. Millions of people who could work are trapped on benefits, denied the income, hope, dignity and self-respect that we know good work brings. Taxpayers are paying millions more for the cost of failure, with spending on working-age sickness and disability benefits up £20 billion since the pandemic and set to rise by a further £18 billion by the end of this Parliament to £70 billion a year. It is not like this in most other comparable countries, where spending on these benefits since the pandemic is either stable or falling, while ours continues to inexorably rise. This is the legacy of 14 years of Tory failure.

Today we say, ‘No more’. Since we were elected, we have hit the ground running to get more people into good work through our plan for change. We are investing an extra £26 billion into the NHS to drive down waiting lists and get people back to health and back to work. We are improving the quality of work and making work pay with our landmark employment rights legislation and increases in the national living wage; we are creating more good jobs in every part of the country in clean energy and through our modern industrial strategy; and we are introducing the biggest reforms to employment support in a generation, with our £240 million Get Britain Working plan. Today, our Pathways to Work Green Paper sets out decisive action to fix the broken benefits system, creating a more proactive, pro-work system for those who can work and so protecting those who cannot work, now and for the long term.

As a constituency MP for 14 years, I know that there will always be people who can never work because of the severity of their disability or illness. Under this Government, the social security system will always be there for people in genuine need. That is a principle we will never compromise on. But disabled people and people with health conditions who can work should have the same rights, choices and chances to work as everybody else. That principle of equality is vital too, because, far from what Members opposite would have you believe, many sick and disabled people want to work, with the right help and support. Unlike the Conservatives, that is what we will deliver.

Our first aim is to secure a decisive shift towards prevention and early intervention. Almost 4 million people are in work with a work-limiting health condition, and around 300,000 fall out of work every year, so we have to do far more to help people stay in work and get back to work quickly—because your chances of returning are five times higher in the first year. Our plans to give statutory sick pay to 1 million of the lowest-paid workers and more rights to flexible working will help keep more people in work.

The WorkWell programme is trialling new approaches, such as GPs referring people to employment advisers instead of signing them off as sick. Our “Keep Britain Working” review, led by former John Lewis boss Sir Charlie Mayfield, will set out what government and employers can do together to create healthier, more inclusive workplaces. So we will help more employers offer opportunities for disabled people, including through measures such as reasonable readjustments, alongside our Green Paper consultation on reforming Access to Work so it is fit for the future.

Today I can announce another step: our Green Paper will consult on a major reform of contributory benefits, merging contributions-based jobseeker’s allowance and employment support allowance into a new, time-limited unemployment insurance, paid at a higher rate, without having to prove you cannot work in order to get it. So if you have paid into the system, you will get stronger income protection while we help you get back on track.

Our second objective is to restore trust and fairness in the benefits system by fixing the broken assessment process and tackling the perverse incentives that drive people into welfare dependency. Members on this side of the House have long argued that the work capability assessment is not fit for purpose. Going through the WCA is complex, time-consuming and often stressful for claimants, especially if they also have to go through the PIP assessment. More fundamentally, it is based on a binary can/cannot work divide, when we know the truth is that many people’s physical and mental health conditions fluctuate.

The consultation on the Conservatives’ discredited WCA proposals was ruled unlawful by the courts, so today I can announce that we will not go ahead with their proposals. Instead, we will scrap the WCA in 2028.

In future, extra financial support for health conditions in universal credit will be available solely through the PIP assessment, so extra income is based on the impact of someone’s health condition or disability, not on their capacity to work—reducing the number of assessments that people have to go through and a vital step towards derisking work.

We will do more by legislating for a right to try, guaranteeing that work in and of itself will never lead to a benefit reassessment, giving people the confidence to take the plunge and try work without the fear that this will put their benefits at risk.

We will also tackle the perverse financial incentives that the party opposite created, which actively encourage people into welfare dependency. The Tories ran down the value of the universal credit standard allowance. As a result, the health top-up is now worth double the standard allowance, at more than £400 a month. In 2017, they took away extra financial help for the group of people who could prepare for work, so we are left with a binary assessment of can or cannot work and a clear financial incentive to define yourself as incapable of work—something the OBR, IFS and others say is a likely factor driving people on to incapacity benefits.

Today, we tackle this problem head on. We will legislate to rebalance the payments in universal credit from April next year, holding the value of the health top-up fixed in cash terms for existing claimants and reducing it for new claimants, with an additional premium for people with severe, lifelong conditions that mean they will never work, so to give them the financial security they deserve.

Alongside this, we will bring in a permanent, above-inflation rise to the standard allowance in universal credit, for the first time ever—a £775 annual increase, in cash terms, by 2029-30, and a decisive step to tackle the perverse incentives in the system.

We will also fix the failing system of reassessments. The Conservatives failed to switch reassessments back on after the pandemic, so they are down by more than two-thirds, with face-to-face assessments going from seven in 10 to only one in 10. We will turn these reassessments back on at scale and shift the focus back to doing more face to face, and we will ensure that they are recorded as standard to give confidence to claimants and taxpayers that they are being done properly.

I can also announce that, for people on universal credit with the most severe disabilities and health conditions that will never improve, we want to ensure that they are never reassessed, to give them the confidence and dignity they deserve. We will fundamentally overhaul the DWP’s safeguarding approach to make sure that all our processes and training are of the highest quality, so we protect and support the most vulnerable people.

Alongside these changes, we will also reform disability benefits so that they focus support on those in greatest need, and to ensure that the social security system lasts for the long term, into the future.

Social and demographic change means that more people are now living with a disability, but the increase in disability benefits is double the rate of increasing prevalence of working-age disability in the country, with claims among young people up 150%; for mental health conditions up 190%; and for learning difficulties up over 400%—according to the IFS. Every day, there are more than 1,000 new PIP awards. That is the equivalent of adding a population the size of Leicester every single year.

That is not sustainable in the long term, above all for the people who depend on this support, but the Tories had no proper plan to deal with it, just yet more ill-thought-through consultations. So today I can announce that this Government will not bring in the Tory proposals for vouchers, because disabled people should have choice and control over their lives. We will not means-test PIP, because disabled people deserve extra support, whatever their income, and I confirm that we will not freeze PIP either.

Instead, our reforms will focus support on those with the greatest needs. We will legislate for a change in PIP so that people will need to score a minimum of four points in at least one activity to qualify for the daily living element of PIP from November 2026. This will not affect the mobility component of PIP and relates only to the daily living element.

Alongside this, we will launch a review of the PIP assessment, led by my right honourable friend the Minister for Social Security and Disability, in close consultation with disabled people, the organisations that represent them and other experts, so we make sure that PIP and the assessment process are fit for purpose now and into the future. This significant reform package is expected to save over £5 billion in 2029-30, and the OBR will set out its final assessment of the costings next week.

Our third and final objective is to deliver personalised support to sick and disabled people who can work to get the jobs they need and deserve. We know from the last Labour Government and our new deal for disabled people, young people and the long-term unemployed the difference that proper employment support can make. More recent evidence from the Work Choice programme and additional work coach time shows that support can make a significant difference in the number of people getting and keeping work and improving their mental health and well-being.

This Labour Government believe that an active state can transform people’s lives. We know this because we have done it before. So today I can announce that we will invest an additional £1 billion a year in employment support, with the aim of guaranteeing high-quality, tailored and personalised support to help people on a pathway to work—the largest ever investment in opportunities to work for sick and disabled people. Alongside this, for those on the UC health top-up, we will bring in an expectation to engage and a new support conversation to talk about people’s goals and aspirations, combined with an offer of personalised health, skills and employment support.

Because being out of work or training when you are young is so damaging to your future prospects, we will go further. In addition to funding our youth guarantee through the £240 million Get Britain Working plan, we will consult on delaying access to the health top-up in universal credit until someone is aged 22, with the savings reinvested into work support and training opportunities, so that every young person is earning or learning and on a pathway to success.

The Conservatives left a broken benefits system that is failing the people who depend on it and our country as a whole. The status quo is unacceptable, but it is not inevitable. We were elected on a mandate for change: to end the sticking-plaster approach and tackle the root causes of problems in this country that have been ignored for too long. We believe in the value and potential of every single person and that we all have something positive to contribute and can make a difference, whether that is in paid work, in our families or in our communities alongside our neighbours and friends. We will unleash this potential in every corner of the land, because we are as ambitious for the British people as they are for themselves. Today we take decisive action, and I commend this Statement to the House.”

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[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, these welfare reforms aim to reduce benefit spending while encouraging greater workforce participation. I thank the Minister for reading the Statement and the noble Viscount for the useful questions that he has raised. I have respect for both of them, as they know.

From these Benches, we want to see more people in work, including those with disabilities. While the need for reform is clear, the Liberal Democrats are concerned that the current proposals risk worsening the very issues that they intend to address. We all want to see a more efficient welfare system, but that cannot come at the expense of the most vulnerable in society, particularly those with disabilities or health conditions. Instead of focusing on short-term cuts, we must reform the system in a way that is fair and compassionate and ensures dignity for all.

Does the Minister agree that one of the main aims of this reform package is, as the Statement says, to save £5 billion—often at the expense of the vulnerable in society?

One key area of concern are the proposed cuts to benefits for people with disabilities, which could push many into poverty and greater dependence on social care. The chief executive of Citizens Advice has warned that these changes could have “serious long-term consequences”, and we on these Benches passionately agree. For individuals with severe disabilities or health conditions, this reform package may well create further barriers to employment rather than removing them. The Government’s proposal to freeze the health top- up in universal credit for existing claimants, while reducing it for new ones, will only add to the pressure on disabled individuals, undermining their ability to achieve independence and security. Why are new claimants considered less vulnerable than existing claimants? Of course, that is nonsense and worthy of Ebenezer Scrooge.

These Benches welcome the idea of merging contributory benefits and creating a new unemployment insurance, but the fact remains that we are still waiting for an overdue comprehensive overhaul of the Department for Work and Pensions. Until the Government get serious about fixing health and social care—systems that are intrinsically linked to people’s ability to work—the welfare system will continue to struggle. The social care review’s three-year timeline is hugely disappointing and highlights the lack of urgency in addressing these critical issues. If the Government truly want to cut benefit spending, they must first address the root causes, not just apply superficial, short-term fixes borne by those least able to object.

These Benches remain committed to supporting people with disabilities into employment. We agree whole- heartedly with the Government’s aim to provide a right to try to work without the risk of losing benefits. However, from history, I have a sneaking premonition that it will be more difficult, and slow, to get back on to the benefits ladder once you have tried to work. That is what has happened in the past.

The wider changes, including delays in the health top-up for young people and increasing reassessments, must be approached with caution. We need to ensure that any reforms we make are sustainable and focused on long-term support for those who are most in need. Does the Minister agree that a balanced approach is needed—one that addresses the root causes of welfare dependency and puts people’s dignity and well-being at the heart of its reforms?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their comments and questions. Maybe we can start by agreeing that we all have great respect for each other, which is both genuinely true and one of the joys of this House. We are able to have conversations and respect one another while disagreeing.

Having got that out of the way, I probably need to start by saying it is possible that some of what we are trying to do has been misunderstood. So let me summarise in my own words what we are trying to do here. First, we need to recognise that the UK has a near-record number of people who are economically inactive on health grounds. The numbers on incapacity and disability benefits are rising at an unsustainable rate, and that is not just down to worsening health. The figures and the evidence show that there are more people who say they have a disability or a long-term health condition affecting their daily lives, but the number going on disability and health benefits is going up twice as fast. So it is not just about health; there is something about the way our system works.

If those numbers keep going up, as more people are driven into the system, fewer people are left to sustain it. One in 10 working-age people now gets a sickness or disability benefit. Before the pandemic, we spent £30 billion a year on those benefits; the figure is now over £50 billion and by the end of the decade it will be £70 billion on working-age benefits. That is not sustainable. So I say to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, that I absolutely know where he is coming from but, if we cannot get the system on to a sustainable footing, it will not be there for the people who need it in the next generation and the one after that. We have to get the system working.

As well as being unsustainable, the system is failing those that it serves. The current system, as my right honourable friend described in the Statement, divides people into artificial binary categories: can and cannot work. Those who are deemed able to work are put out there, given support, encouraged to get a job and paid a standard allowance. Those who cannot are paid more money, left alone and given no help—the system disengages. We know that that is not the reality for most people. We know that 200,000 people on incapacity and disability benefits say they could work right now with the right support and the right job, but the system does not encourage them to do that; it actually discourages them.

Social security provides a vital safety net for those who rely on it, but we need it to be there for the future as well. Our Green Paper sets out how we will refocus the social security system towards empowering people to find work, while protecting those who most need help by supercharging the employment support with an extra £1 billion and a focus on early intervention, and by separating the link between the capability to work and extra financial support, so that everyone can work and not risk their benefits.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, suggested that this was simply a cost-cutting measure. I hope I have explained to him why the measure is trying to do two things. It is trying to place the whole system on a more sustainable footing and it is trying to reform it to make sure that it can support all those who can work to be able to go out there and get a job, to develop in it and to build a life in it, while absolutely guaranteeing to support those who are never going to be able to work or who have the most severe needs.

The estimate—we will get the details when the OBR does the figures for the Spring Statement next week—is that this package will save £5 billion in 2029-30. When the figures come out, I encourage the noble Viscount to have a look at them and compare them with what his Government had in mind, and we can then have a conversation about them. However, even with these changes, we are not reducing spending on disability and sickness benefits. We are spending less to try to make the system sustainable, but the numbers will keep on going up.

The noble Lord mentioned the question of people being put into poverty. One thing to stress is that anyone who is getting benefits at the moment—if they are getting PIP or the universal credit health element at the moment—will keep those benefits unless and until they have a reassessment and their eligibility changes, so this is a system for the future.

The noble Lord asks why it is different for those coming in afresh. The answer is that we have to make the system sustainable and that is the best way to do it. However, we want to support people in transition. Of course, some people will end up losing entitlement, but we want to look into how we can best support them, including possibly with transitional support to make the adjustment to the new regime.

The noble Lord asked about the DWP. One of the things that has worried us as we came into government is the lack of trust and confidence in the system, and we are really determined to address that. It is one of the reasons that we say in the Green Paper that we are going to develop a new safeguarding system for DWP to try to rebuild trust and confidence in the system. That is why, for example, we are going to move to recording all assessments by default, so that people can be clear and have confidence in the process when that is happening.

Crucially, for those on the universal credit health system who have the most severe lifelong health conditions which have no prospect of improvement, so they are never going to work, we are going to look at providing an additional premium to protect them so that they are secure. For people in that group, with both new and existing claims, we will guarantee that they will never face a full reassessment in the future.

The noble Viscount asked about WCA. I think he is aware that not only were the previous Government’s proposals to reform WCA, I am sorry to say, poorly thought out, but their consultation was so bad it was actually ruled illegal by the courts, which made it simply impossible. We had a manifesto commitment to either reform or scrap the work capability assessment. We have come to the conclusion that it cannot be reformed; we are therefore going to scrap it. Apart from anything else, that will mean that people will not have to go through two separate assessments. We think that is the way forward.

I probably have to take on the noble Viscount’s challenge here that the Government were going to do lots of things. I fully accept that, when his party were in government, they had lots of ideas, but they did have 14 years to do them. We, at this point, are nine months in. We have already made some announcements, we have a detailed Green Paper for reform, we are engaged in consultations and we are going to change the system. I understand this is hard. I know change is hard, but the system has been tinkered with for far too long. We need reform and we are doing it now.

It was of course Beveridge himself who identified the establishment of comprehensive health and rehabilitation and maintenance of employment as necessary conditions of success in social security. We need more than tinkering. We need a system that will be sustainable and will support people into work, but will protect those with the highest needs who can never work. We can do both. I welcome the contributions from both noble Lords and look forward to carrying on the conversation. We all need this change to work.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I think we all applaud the desire to get people off benefits and into work, but to do that we need jobs and we need employers who are willing to take those people. I hope the noble Baroness will not mind my quoting from the impact assessment that accompanies the Employment Rights Bill in relation to day 1 unfair dismissal rights. It states that

“there is evidence that the policy could negatively impact on hiring rates. For example, employers may be slower to take on workers due to the liability and increased protections”—

and I stress this last bit—

“particularly for those that are seen as riskier hires”.

Does the noble Baroness agree that that seems to be in direct conflict with the desire to bring people into work, and does she think it is a good idea?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. I have real confidence in this. The noble Lord may know that in January we published the terms of reference for the Keep Britain Working review, a review headed by the former chair of John Lewis, Sir Charlie Mayfield, who is looking at ways in which we can make workplaces more receptive and more able to take on people who have health conditions and disabilities. It could include all kinds of ways in which we can support them. We want to remove the barriers to employers doing that.

We already know that this is the case: reasonable adjustments are often talked about as a way of doing it. The noble Lord may think that these difficult hires. In fact, it is estimated that, on average, employers could save between £5,000 and £11,000 for every employee they prevent from falling out of work. So having an inclusive workplace is not a “nice to have”: it is not an extra. It is a way of making sure that we protect those who are currently working. There are significant numbers of people at the moment who are working but have a condition, and hundreds of thousands of them fall out of work every year. Our system is trying to work with employers to protect those who are already in work, but we have lots of employers really engaged with us in jobcentres, in the work we are doing and in building relationships. People want to do this. We can do this.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

My Lords, I refer to my interest in the register. When we talk about getting people back into work, perhaps the Minister could reflect on that group of people who have never been in work. I am thinking not just of school or college leavers but people who are now in their 40s and 50s and have never been in work, but actually still want to. She will not be surprised to know that I am referring particularly to the autism community. In the 32 years that I have worked in this building, the employment rate for the autism community has gone up from 17% to just 23%. These people have lived through many Conservative and Labour Governments, not forgetting a coalition Government. To get them into work will require something really different from what has been applied before. They are a discrete but important group. Given the Green Paper and the Statement that we have heard today, is the Minister going to get autistic people into work?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am really grateful to the noble Baroness for raising that question and, as she so often does, reminding us of the challenges in this area. Let me say a couple of things. To reassure those who may be worried, as I have said before, anyone currently receiving benefits will carry on getting them unless there is a reassessment and their eligibility changes. However, that is not the limit of our ambition. One of the reasons we want at least to have a supportive conversation, rather than abandon people who are simply getting those benefits, is to begin to understand what more we could do to support them.

There are some people who will find it very difficult to get into work but maybe they could, with the right support, begin to do some voluntary work. Perhaps they could begin to reach out and get some fresh kinds of support or connect with the local community. The biggest challenge for us, as in the noble Baroness’s words to us today, is how we challenge employers to take this on. We are planning, as part of the consultation on the Green Paper, to not only invite people—I expect very many responses—but to hold events for the public and round tables, to hold discussions both in person and elsewhere. I would be really grateful if she would be willing to talk to us about addressing this as part of that consultation.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, parts of this package are very welcome; for example, the right to try paid work, the strengthening of contributory benefit for unemployed people, the increase in the UC standard rate—albeit very modest—and the commitment to consult disabled people on at least some of the changes. But overhanging them is the £5 billion cut from a social security system which, according to CPAG, suffered £50 billion a year in cuts thanks to the Tories. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation warns that this is the biggest cut in disability benefits since 2010, yet disabled people are at disproportionate risk of poverty.

What assessment have the Government made of the future impact of the cuts on poverty, not mentioned in the Statement, and reliance on food banks, which is of great concern to Trussell? What will happen to entitlement to carer’s allowance, for which PIP is one of the most common qualifying benefits? When the Green Paper says that it represents a “start”—a welcome start—of the rebalancing of UC payment levels and of addressing “the basic adequacy” of UC, can we look forward to a proper review of its inadequacy?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend raises some interesting points and I am grateful for the welcome she has given to some elements of our reforms. On the question of adequacy, it may be—in her words—modest but this is actually a significant above-inflation cash increase in the standard allowance of universal credit. It means that by the end of this Parliament, people will be £14 a week, or £775 a year, better off. That might be modest proportionally; it is significant and will make a difference to people’s lives. But the real way that we will make a difference to people’s lives, in so many cases, is by helping them to move into work.

There is only so much that the benefit system can do. There are those who cannot work and have severe needs, and the benefit system must always be there to support them. But for those who can, there is so much more out there that we could be doing and we simply have not been doing it. That is really one of my hopes. We will deal with poverty in other ways. Just so my noble friend knows, the impact and equality assessments will be published next week alongside the Spring Statement. In the long run, this is not about simply tinkering around the sides of a system. We are not just doing blanket cuts. We are doing two things: trying to put this system on a sustainable basis, so it will still be there for the future, but, much more than that, trying to reform it so that people genuinely can get into work who previously have been given no help and been abandoned. That way, we can really make a difference to people’s lives.

[The Lord Bishop of London]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s focus on and increased investment in supporting people back into good work, and the proposed safeguards through the right to try guarantee. However, I am intrinsically wary of attempts to address the drivers of ill health through the social security system, rather than tackling root causes. We do not know yet the content of the NHS plan. Supporting people who are currently claiming incapacity benefits into work will put considerable pressure on an already stressed health system. What steps is the Minister’s department taking to work with the Department of Health and Social Care to ensure that the right support is available for people with physical and mental health needs?

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[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London for that important question. I mentioned earlier that the prevalence of disability has increased. I have to correct that: the rate of prevalence has increased. Again, the rate of the increase of disability benefits has gone up by twice as much. If I have got that wrong, they will correct me again and I will read it out next time I get up.

On the question of health, crucially, we have invested almost £26 billion extra in the NHS, but change will take time. We intend to implement our reforms to PIP in November 2026, subject to parliamentary approval. To reassure the right reverend Prelate and anyone listening, everyone claiming PIP will continue to receive it until they are reassessed and their eligibility changes. We will always seek to protect the most severely disabled.

In the meantime, we are looking to do a couple of different things. We are trying to get early intervention to stop people falling out of work, and we are about to launch our health accelerators, which will support efforts to tackle economic inactivity through getting the NHS to shift to prevention. We are trialling in some of our pilot areas how exactly we can bring together the NHS and employment support to address that.

The right reverend Prelate raises an important point. One of the challenges for us is that there are things that will need the NHS to be sorted out. There are other areas where a range of different types of support could enable people, even now, to get into work. We are determined to do both.

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests in the register. There is much in this Statement to be welcomed, apart from the bit that says it is all the Conservatives’ fault. I particularly welcome the emphasis on getting disabled people back into work. At Cerebral Palsy Scotland, where I work, we are dealing with a devolved social security system. Adult disability payment, ADP, is replacing PIP and DLA in Scotland. It is similar, but it has a different application and renewal process. We are finding that there are people caught between DWP and Social Security Scotland. Apparently, there are about 80,000 people in Scotland still on PIP. Can the Minister assure me that, in the process of all these reviews and all this change, those on the devolved benefits systems will not get left behind or be negatively affected?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness and commend her for her work with Cerebral Palsy Scotland. She raises a really important point. To be clear, the proposals in the Green Paper would apply directly only to UK Government areas of responsibility. We are working through the areas of interaction between reserved and devolved benefits, with the Scottish Government in particular. The noble Baroness described one area, and there are others. As she mentioned, the Scottish Government’s adult disability payment replaced PIP. Therefore, the proposals on PIP will apply only to those areas we control. I encourage her to speak to the Scottish Government. In the end, it will be for the Scottish Government to work out how they will make their system sustainable. From our side, we can make sure that, as far as possible, the systems align. It is an important point and one we are very aware of. We will certainly make sure we address it specifically in our discussions with the devolved Administrations.

[Baroness Primarolo (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to ask the Minister a question on the right to try, which I am sure we would all agree is a principle that is crucially important. How can we make sure that people can take the risk to try paid employment, without the fear that is currently in the system that their benefits will be put at risk?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for the question. Of course, she has a great deal of experience in this area; she knows only too well how the system works and how it has worked in the past.

This is one of the real problems with the current system. When people have been put through that binary judgment that they either can or cannot work, if they get into the “can’t work” category, the risks are so great that, if they try to work and fail, we will then come and say, “Ha, so you can work after all”, and then it will be taken away.

We are going to do a couple of things. First, there is a linking rule already there, which we will make sure that everybody is aware of, so that if you try a job and come back on to benefits within six months, you will be able to go back to your old benefits. That touches on a point raised by the noble Viscount as well. But we are going to go further: we are going to legislate to make it very clear that work in and of its own right will never be a reason for triggering a reassessment. It is really important that people know that. In the long run, we will break the connection between can and cannot work and support, because in the long run it is the PIP assessment and your abilities and needs that will determine how much support you get, not whether you can or cannot work. I hope that reassures my noble friend that we are determined to tackle this.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I am speaking from the Back Benches today because I am very concerned about the sustainability of the benefits system, with an ageing population and the ranks of the inactive and people on disability benefits, as the Minister described. I am sure that it is right to focus on getting people back into work—and I am absolutely delighted that Charlie Mayfield is helping the Government. He comes from retail, as I do, and retail is detail. That sort of person is very helpful in trying to make things work.

I have a couple of questions. First, I have done some work on fraud in the past, including trying to use AI to reduce the cost of fraud. I was very concerned to hear that only one in 10 assessments is face to face. What does the Minister feel the opportunity is in tackling fraud?

Secondly, on timing, the Minister mentioned that there would be a change in PIP in November 2026 and in the work capacity assessment in 2028. Given the scale of the problem, can she give me any reassurance about timing and getting on with those changes?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Those are two great questions, and I thank the noble Baroness for them—and also for the phrase “retail is detail”, which I shall now deploy as though it were my own whenever the opportunity presents itself.

I am sorry for not picking up the question of fraud, because the noble Viscount asked about that as well. We have a fraud Bill coming to this House, which is making its way through the other place at the moment, so we are absolutely determined to crack down on fraud and will use a whole range of means for doing that. We will have an opportunity to discuss that in detail when the Bill arrives here.

We are thrilled that Charlie Mayfield is leading this review for us. We know that if we cannot get the relationship with employers right and create a system that works for employers and employees, we will not be able to get the jobs we need, especially for people who find it difficult.

To reassure the noble Baroness, if she looks at annexe A of the Green Paper, there is a table on Green Paper measures that gives timings on everything coming in. However, the real reassurance is that we have already started. For example, the changes to universal credit, assuming they get parliamentary approval, will start to come in from next April. But the work has already begun on supporting people into work. The Secretary of State has already announced an extra 1,000 work coaches to work with people who are sick or disabled to help them get into work. We know from past evidence that sometimes somebody simply spending a bit of time with somebody and encouraging them in can make all the difference straightaway. So we are starting on that already—we are not waiting for it to happen. We are already piloting around the country, as I said to the right reverend Prelate, trailblazers for young people and for the wider population on how we work with local councils. Sometimes, whether someone can get into work is not just about what we do; whether someone can get a job in Manchester might be about what the childcare is like, how the buses run between where the jobs are and where the homes are, and what the local labour market is like. We are working with metropolitan authorities and engaging locally to try to turn the system around and get everybody pointing in the same direction.

Finally, I really share the noble Baroness’s concern about the sustainability of the system, but I want to make sure that we are doing it to keep the system there for the future—because I believe passionately that we need a safety net there for those who struggle and who cannot work. We have to make sure that it works, and we are committed to making sure that everybody who has the most severe needs or will never be able to work will always get the support they need under this Government.

[Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, mentioned carer’s allowance. The Minister will know that many carers have disabilities and long-term conditions themselves, and caring itself is a risk factor for having to give up work. In their consultation on the Green Paper, therefore, will the Government commit to doing more for unpaid carers, particularly around enabling them to remain part of the workforce where they want to do so? So many of them do, as the noble Baroness knows.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for raising that question and I apologise to my noble friend Lady Lister for having forgotten to deal with it in my response to her. I commend my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley for all that she does in this space. First, she knows more than anyone that we are investing in carers: we have just significantly raised the amount of money that somebody can earn before they will lose their carer’s allowance. We have also launched an independent review of carer’s allowance to make sure that the system works. The eligibility change will benefit 60,000 carers-plus by 2029-30.

My noble friend makes the excellent point that the overlap between caring and disability is sometimes more intertwined than we realise. Again, I reassure her that if somebody is on PIP, neither the carer nor the person being cared for will lose that money unless and until there is a reassessment and their eligibility is found to have changed. More than that, we made a specific commitment in the Green Paper to look carefully when considering the consultation responses at how we can support any unpaid carers who find they are affected by the changes that we are proposing. In light of that, I strongly encourage anyone such as her or people she may know to respond to the consultation, to engage with us and to make sure that we understand any unforeseen consequences and can think about how we deal with them.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

The noble Baroness has announced a wide range of reforms. Can she say which require primary legislation and which can be done by secondary legislation? Can she outline the implications for those who work in her department of the reforms she has just touched on?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

With parliamentary approval, we will use primary legislation to address the changes in universal credit and PIP eligibility. Assuming that we have parliamentary approval and that time is found for Bills by whoever makes these decisions, we will bring forward legislation on those. Some of the other aspects of the reforms that we are consulting on in the Green Paper, if taken forward, will also need primary legislation, but of course they are the subject of consultation, so, as the noble Lord will understand, I would not commit to doing them at this stage; it depends on the result of the consultation. Some of those will need consultation, and primary legislation for them, with parliamentary approval, would have to be done in a subsequent Session.

On the impact on people in my department, we have looked carefully and have been working with colleagues across the department to make sure that the changes that we want to make are deliverable—that has been very much at the forefront. Somebody asked me recently what the biggest difference is between being in opposition and being in government. It is that, when you are in opposition, your primary concern is policy; when you are in government, one of your concerns is how you can actually deliver things. We are very conscious that we have to make sure not only that the system has the right elements to it but that it is deliverable, and we are determined to do that.

House adjourned at 9.12 pm.