United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, makes clear, there is really no reason why the teaching profession should not be treated the same as legal services. If there is an answer, I look forward to the Minister supplying it. However, as I think the noble Lord, Lord German, said, it also raises the question of what else is covered, be it medical research, university teaching, religious teaching or driving instruction. It is the same question that I posed before: are these areas of education and the passing on of wisdom to be covered, or are they excluded? We might not have those answers now but we need to be very clear on what is covered in this part of the Bill.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, these amendments seek to exclude teaching services and the teaching profession from the scope of the mutual recognition principle in Parts 2 and 3 of the Bill. Starting with Amendment 79, the current list of entries in Schedule 2 is largely drawn from the exclusions under the existing framework in the retained EU law. Schedule 2 aims to list those services for which it would be inappropriate to apply either or both of the provisions in Part 2. For example, legal services are excluded in recognition of the long-standing differences between the legal systems in each part of the UK.

I should allay the noble Baroness’s concerns if I explain that public services, including the public education services, are already excluded from the scope of Part 2 of the Bill under Schedule 2. That exclusion will ensure that public education services are not subject to the principles of mutual recognition or non-discrimination in Part 2. For this reason, it is my view that Amendment 79 is unnecessary.

Clause 17 requires the Secretary of State to keep Schedule 2 under review and contains the power to amend it by regulation to add services or requirements to those matters excluded from the principles of mutual recognition and non-discrimination. I can assure noble Lords that the Government will continue to keep the list of exclusions under review to ensure that it includes the appropriate services and requirements, to which either or both market access principles should not apply.

I turn to Amendment 106, which deals with recognition of professional qualifications. I assure noble Lords that teaching standards across the UK are very important to this Government. The provisions in Clause 24 allow relevant authorities to replace the automatic recognition principle with an alternative recognition process if they think that automatic recognition of different UK teaching qualifications would not be appropriate.

We are therefore answering the General Teaching Council for Scotland and the issues brought up about Wales and Northern Ireland; they will still be able to set standards in those devolved authorities, as now, and control who can teach in them. If the General Teaching Council for Scotland or a council in any other devolved authority decides that recognising teaching qualifications from other parts of the UK automatically is not appropriate, it can put in place an alternative recognition process to check qualifications and experience, as set out in the Bill. That should allay a number of the fears brought up in this short debate.

The system will enable relevant authorities to assess an individual’s qualifications before allowing professionals to practise. Relevant authorities will continue to have the ability to refuse access to those who are unable to demonstrate that they meet the standard requirements, such as the Welsh language. This makes an exception for the teaching profession unnecessary. On those grounds, I cannot accept the amendment and hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw it.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

I have received a request to speak after the Minister. I call the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I wish to obtain absolute clarity from the Minister on the exemption in Schedule 2 with regard to:

“Services provided by a person exercising functions of a public nature”—


that is, a public body. That may apply to Wales but the General Teaching Council for Scotland is a charity as well as a regulatory body. The Minister outlined what it would be able to do to change, if challenged, those seeking to be registered in Scotland under the English criteria but who do not meet the Scottish criteria. The fear is that because the council is a charity—it is the oldest regulatory body for teachers in the world—it would be forced to accept teachers of a different standard than the English standard, which I automatically assumed would be a lesser standard. Will the Minister clarify that charities, such as regulatory bodies like the GTCS, are included in Schedule 2? She said it applied just to public bodies.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I am not going to give the noble Lord a definitive answer now but I will write to him to make sure that we are clear about that issue.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

I thank noble Lords who have contributed to the debate and the Minister for her response. The noble Lords, Lord German and Lord Purvis of Tweed, usefully added some pieces of history, particularly on Scotland and helped to identify that we are talking about long-separate and different systems. The noble Lord, Lord German, identified the way in which Wales has been heading in different directions. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, stressed my point that there is no reason why teaching services should not be treated in the Bill in the same way as legal services and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, made an important point.

The Minister acknowledged the long-standing differences. I understood her to say that teaching would be automatically excluded without needing to be included in the Bill—at least in her initial remarks, but perhaps not so clearly in answer to the question she was asked. I know that that is not what was conveyed to the GTCS in previous discussions and that there is considerable public concern, particularly in Scotland, about these issues. I note the word that the Minister used in her comment that the nations “can” put in place alternative systems. The systems are already in place.

I will go away and look at Hansard, but I reserve the right to come back on Report. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as we grope our way through the Bill and get to what seem even more complex and difficult to understand parts of it, we seem to reach a point where the Bill either does not add anything or is currently so badly drafted that it might destroy what we currently have. I may be being harsh, and I realise that I am asking quite a lot of the Minister, who has probably not been directly involved in any of these parts of the Bill, or concerned with some of the issues we had to deal with earlier this evening, but it seems to me that with every group, and every minute we spend on the Bill, there is a growing understanding that, as the noble Lord, Lord German, said, the Government are trying to push ahead with something that does not take the trick, as far as we are concerned, in relation to the issues before us.

The Government need to step back, take their time, concentrate on the things that they and only they can do, and encourage those who have other responsibilities that bear on what we are talking about to develop them, and out of the gloom will emerge—because they are the answer—the common frameworks. Why do the Government not realise that that is where we are heading? Why do they not get it into their heads that we need to stop being so concerned about the possibilities—the far ranges and the sunny uplands—that may be available in some nirvana they have yet to describe accurately, and work from where we are to try to get somewhere sensible in the time we have?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I do not intend to have a debate on the union tonight, but I am sure it will come up later in the Bill. However, I reiterate to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, what I said on, I think, the group before last: the General Teaching Council for Scotland will still be able to set the standards in Scotland, as it does now, and will control who can teach in Scotland. That goes back to Scotland having control over its own education system. Similarly, the noble Lord, Lord German, brought up the Welsh language. If Welsh language requirements were introduced in respect of a profession in any other way—for example, by bringing in requirements for ongoing training—it could come under the equal treatment provisions of the Bill. As such, it would be possible for the regulator to impose Welsh language requirements on professionals qualified outside Wales if equally required of professionals qualifying in Wales. So there is an equality here.

I turn to the amendments in the group, which test and attempt to change the way in which professions would be in scope of Part 3. The purpose of the professional qualification provisions in the internal market Bill is to ensure that professionals can, in most cases, access their profession in all parts of the UK, by ensuring that there is an overarching system for recognition. It is important to ensure that, regardless of future policy changes, UK-qualified professionals will be able to practise across the whole of the UK. Divergence in professional regulation between the four nations of the UK should not increase barriers for professionals living and working in different parts of the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, has sought, with his Amendment 102A, to understand whether these provisions are covered in existing UK law. Currently, while recognition of professional qualifications between the four nations can and does occur, there is no overarching framework that ensures that it happens consistently. The Bill will create this overarching framework to guarantee that recognition of qualifications between the four nations of the UK will be possible, and that barriers to access will be minimised, so that professionals are not unduly limited in where they may work.

To that end, I must oppose the process that Amendments 104 and 105 seek to establish for bringing professions within scope of the internal market provisions. The Government’s approach ensures that nearly all professions are in scope and that barriers do not emerge. In contrast with the Government’s proposals, Amendment 104 lays out a bureaucratic process for adding professions. Amendment 105 builds on Amendment 104 and seeks to ensure that only professions that are specified in regulations are caught by automatic recognition. Ultimately, these amendments would result in delays and uncertainty, preventing barriers in the internal market being addressed. This would be to the detriment of all UK professionals.

I assure noble Lords that the Government acknowledge the importance of working with each devolved authority on the implementation of this Bill and will continue to do so, as they have done throughout this process. Clause 25 already ensures that existing divergence in professional qualification requirements across the UK is outside the scope of automatic recognition, until further changes are made. This means that there are no immediate changes for relevant authorities to make in respect of access to professions.

We must ensure the smooth functioning of the internal market for professionals. I therefore hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her answer. I heard the answer she gave two groups ago, which is why I did not repeat the question; I actually asked a different question, about the status of the Act of Union. It was not I who brought it up, but the Government in their Command Paper. It having been brought up, it would be quite helpful to understand how the Government see it fitting into all this. It is a perfectly reasonable question and I hope that, perhaps in writing, I could have a perfectly reasonable answer.

The market the noble Baroness described in the Government’s eyes appears to need fixing. What is broken in professional services that this Bill is seeking to mend? If this Government had a reputation for overwhelming competence, and an ability to really get hold of things and make them better, perhaps I might understand what it is about. There are many things that this Government could focus their laser attention on; mending something that is not broken is not one of them. That said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.