Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 29th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Godson, and welcome the noble Lord, Lord Caine, to the Front Bench on Northern Ireland affairs. I have worked with the noble Lord, Lord Caine, on many occasions going back many years. Probably the first time that we worked together was on the visit of Sir Patrick Mayhew, then the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, on 19 June 1994 to Loughinisland. He came to meet my predecessor MP, Eddie McGrady, and all the various families who had lost loved ones in a very untimely, brutal and callous way. That was a visit that they, and we, deeply appreciated. I wish the noble Lord well in his new position. I also welcome my noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon, who served as a Minister in the direct rule Administration, and my noble friend Lord Coaker, who was shadow Secretary of State, when they were in the other place.

The most important thing for me, as a democratic Irish nationalist, in coming to this debate is that we are particularly zealous about wanting to build that shared future, respect for political difference and parity of esteem. For me, that was encapsulated in the three sets of relationships embodied by my late friend and former leader John Hume, and became that noble agreement, the Good Friday agreement, on 8 April 1998. I never forget the sense of hope, expectancy and excitement on that day in Castle Buildings. That agreement was between the British and Irish Governments, as co-guarantors, along with my party, the Ulster Unionists and other parties. I know that some parties were not there because they had absented themselves, but the basic tenet and central to the core of the agreement was that infrastructure and architecture that provided the framework for people to work together with respect, mutual understanding, trust and confidence in each other.

We are in no doubt—I talk on behalf of my colleagues here on the Labour Front Bench and in the SDLP—that we want to see the fulfilment of that expectancy and to use the architecture of the Good Friday agreement to work together in partnership, reconciliation, parity of esteem and respect for difference. Those are the kernels we urgently need to build the political stability and resilience of government.

I welcome the legislation, but there are certain areas for improvement, and I have already spoken to the Minister about them. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and others that the commencement date needs to be foreshortened and that the sense of urgency needs to be fed into this legislation to ensure that it is on the statute book fairly quickly—because in Northern Ireland we need that political stability.

Parties such as Sinn Féin and the DUP have talked about taking nuclear action to provide political stability. We had examples of that back in June, with Sinn Féin declaring that it might not nominate a deputy if it did not agree with the DUP’s nominee first. We then had the DUP threatening—shall we say—institutions over the protocol. But, by trying to create political stability, they are in fact creating political instability. So I tell them: in the good interests of all the people of Northern Ireland, that is not the way forward.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, referred to the protocol. I support the protocol, but there is a need for mitigations—I am in no doubt about that—and the European Union has provided them in its papers to the UK Government. There is also a need to promote the benefits of the protocol: for example, in the survey that the Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce and Industry carried out some days ago and that was published at the end of last week, 70% supported that. Queen’s University Belfast takes this view in its recent poll, as does the Institute of Irish Studies at the University of Liverpool. That is part of the political context, so could the Minister provide us with an update on those negotiations between the UK and the EU? He—in his former state—and the noble Lords, Lord Empey, Lord Dodds and Lord Hain, were all members of the protocol sub-committee, and we agreed our first report and achieved consensus. But the important thing is that we arrive at a position that provides the very best for the people of Northern Ireland in trade, jobs and opportunity.

Other issues provide that political context. All the parties in Northern Ireland fundamentally disagree on the Government’s proposals on legacy issues because we all believe that they need to be victim centred. Will the Government respect the wishes of the parties and remove the amnesty proposal? The Minister may disagree with the use of the word “amnesty”, but, to us, that is the way it can be best characterised.

Other areas from NDNA are outstanding, and the Minister will be aware of them: the whole area of rights, language and identity proposals. I thought that, whenever the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive had not brought forward those proposals, the UK Government were to do so by October, but we still have not had any legislation in relation to that issue. There is information about the progress on the civic advisory panel and, of course, the Bill of Rights, which we have been talking about. On Friday, I met Amnesty International in Downpatrick, and it is active in this respect but anxious that there has not been a Bill of Rights. In Northern Ireland, all that we can do on many issues is talk about them—we are not good on the doing—so, if the Minister could pursue the Northern Ireland Executive in relation to those outstanding issues, that would be useful.

Generally, I support the Bill, but I felt that several areas could be built on. There is now an opportunity to move forward on the following areas and return to that vision in 1998 that created the infrastructure and architecture to manage differences and be able to realise a better shared future, based on partnership in Northern Ireland.

I go back to the position in 1998 about the appointment of Ministers and the purpose and intention of the GFA on the equalisation of titles: the joint election of First Ministers. I believe that there is some divergence from the concepts of the Good Friday agreement, on restoring the joint nature of the First Minister’s office, which was changed by St Andrews and was a centrepiece of strand one. That is what parallel consent was about. I understand why things did not happen at St Andrews, such as the Assembly collectively nominating the First Ministers who would then be accountable to it. There is a three-Minister provision that is causing a logjam in the Executive office and prevents Ministers bringing forward productive and progressive legislation because it is thwarted by one of the bigger parties. That issue needs to be addressed as well.

The Good Friday agreement and the 1998 Act were destined to build reconciliation, partnership, equality and parity of esteem, but that was thwarted at the next stage at St Andrews. I feel that we need to revert to the original principles and purpose, and I hope, with colleagues, to bring forward amendments in Committee about the equalisation of titles and the joint election of the First Minister.

Political, economic and social stability and sustainability will ultimately not come from rules and procedures. Yes, they are required but, finally, they will come from people in Northern Ireland believing, understanding, having confidence in and accepting that sharing power with their neighbours is the right thing to do and does not negate or diminish their identity. We knew that as far back as 1973, with the first power-sharing Executive arrangement. I was 15 years of age at that stage, and I remember feeling a sense of excitement and hope. Sadly, that did not last all that long. I hope that the matters related to the protocol can be resolved and, while I accept the main provisions in the Bill, I would like to think that the Minister can look at the outstanding areas and work with the Northern Ireland Executive to bring about a resolution.

I return to what a political commentator said—this is my final comment—on journal.ie in February 2020. He said that NDNA was not short on political ambition. Many of us thought it was a document of aspiration, but then it comes back to the willingness of parties to implement it and to underpin the power-sharing parity of esteem to fulfil the needs of a modern, progressive society that has been hit by the outworkings of a hard Brexit and Covid. The people of Northern Ireland have been hit by Brexit, long waiting lists, Covid and the need to recover from the pandemic. When you meet people and talk to them, they want access to a hospital bed, surgery and investigations that lead to diagnosis. Those are the issues that matter to them most, but they want respect for political differences. I accept the provisions in the Bill. I believe that they can be built on by going back to the 1998 agreement to look at the principles of duality of collective responsibility in the election of joint Ministers.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, has said, this is a probing amendment. I think we would all agree that the recent experience of over 1,000 days of political uncertainty when there was no Executive in Northern Ireland is not something that anyone would want repeated. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, have said, it put the civil servants in an incredibly difficult position. We very much hope that we will never again be in a situation where the Assembly is on the brink of collapse, but if such circumstances were to arise, it is important that there is as much stability and clarity on this as possible.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, I would be grateful if the Minister could say a little more about how he sees this working in practice and, in particular, if he could say a little more about the requirements, as set out in New Decade, New Approach, for Ministers

“to act within well-defined limits”.

Can he explain what that would mean in practice?

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister, in his response at Second Reading, provided some clarity on this, indicating that there would be constraints and that cross-cutting issues would still have to go to the Executive for approval. But what happens if there is no First and Deputy First Minister in that period of interregnum? We are supposed to have collective responsibility. Issues are supposed to be taken on a partnership basis. I can remember many times when we did not necessarily have that partnership basis, so I agree with the amendment in the names of my noble friends Lady Smith and Lord Coaker.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, referred to the period between 2017 and 2020. That was a time when civil servants were placed in an invidious position, with limited powers, which piled frustration and anxiety on the wider community. Those civil servants, because of their limited powers, could only take certain decisions. I can well recall the decision in court on the incinerator north of Belfast, where the judge’s judgment indicated that the civil servants had probably acted outwith their powers in this instance.

The Minister was, as I still am, a member of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee. He will recall that the common frameworks came into place in the post-Brexit situation to deal with policy divergence in certain areas devolved to the DAs. Quite a significant amount was devolved to Northern Ireland, but no decisions were taken on those common frameworks during that three-year period because there were no Ministers in place to deal with that—there was no Northern Ireland Executive. The Minister will recall that we in our committee had great difficulty in trying to pursue those common frameworks to their final degree of approval, or to the next stage, where they could be examined with a greater degree of scrutiny. That illustrates the case where there is a need for full-time Ministers.

However, in that period of interregnum, where a Minister’s authority is being extended because of the nature of the difficulties in the Executive, what authority do they have and can that be prescribed in this legislation? Perhaps the Minister could provide us with more clarity and more detail today. If need be, will the Government consider tabling an amendment on Report to deal with this issue and specify the areas of authority?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the warm welcome from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. As my noble friend Lord Empey said to me after Second Reading, it all goes downhill from here. I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment and hope that my response will provide her with some clarity and sufficient reassurance over the role of caretaker Ministers under Clause 2.

It is worth reminding noble Lords of the central purpose of this clause. As noble Lords will recall, the Assembly and Executive ceased to function, in effect, following Martin McGuinness’s resignation in January 2017. As a consequence, Northern Ireland found itself in a state of political limbo, with limited or no decision-making, for nearly three years. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, I sincerely hope that we will never be in that situation again.

During the period while the Executive was not functioning, civil servants, as has been mentioned, were left trying to maintain the machinery of government and provide public services in the absence of ministerial decisions. Without the direction and control of Ministers, those civil servants were significantly limited in the powers that they exercised. The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, referred to differences of opinion between civil servants over which powers they could exercise and we all remember the court case over the incinerator in north Belfast, around 2018, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, referred. The noble Lord’s comments yet again underline the unsatisfactory nature of the situation in which we found ourselves.

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Moved by

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick]

2: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause—
“Appointment of First Ministers
(1) The Northern Ireland Act 1998 is amended as follows.(2) In section 16A (appointment of Ministers following Assembly election), leave out subsections (4) to (7) and subsection (9), and insert after subsection (3)—“(3ZA) Each candidate for the office of joint First Minister must stand for election jointly with a candidate for the other office.(3ZB) Two candidates standing jointly may not be elected to the two offices without one or more of the following measures of representational support—(a) the support of a majority of members, a majority of designated Nationalists and a majority of designated Unionists; or(b) the support of 60 per cent of members, 40 per cent of designated Nationalists and 40 per cent of designated Unionists; or(c) the support of two thirds of members.(3ZC) The First Minister and the deputy First Minister—(a) may not take up office until each of them has affirmed the terms of the pledge of office; and(b) subject to the provisions of this Part, hold office until the conclusion of the next election for First Ministers.”(3) In subsection (3)(a) the reference to “subsections (4) to (7)” is replaced by a reference to “subsections (3ZA) to (3ZC)”.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would restore the Good Friday Agreement provision for joint election by the Assembly of the joint First Ministers.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 2 and 3 in my name and to support Amendment 4 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Rogan.

Amendment 2 refers to restoring the Good Friday agreement provision for joint election by the Assembly of the joint First Ministers. Amendment 3 would provide that the First Minister and Deputy First Minister be referred to as joint First Ministers, reflecting their identical status, powers and responsibilities.

I looked at some of the Commons stages of this Bill and noticed that my colleague, the former Member for Foyle, Mark Durkan, gave evidence. He was one of the negotiators, along with the noble Lords, Lord Trimble and Lord Empey, of the Good Friday agreement. He and the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party talked about going back to the factory settings of that agreement, in which both First Ministers are jointly elected by the Assembly and are therefore jointly accountable to it. In their roles and responsibilities, they are seen as equal.

The change took place in the St Andrews agreement. Those of us at St Andrews back in October 2006 will well recall those particular issues. I am sure that those in the room—I think I was outside it, but some of those who were inside it are here—could relate some of that. That destroyed or undermined the principle of parity of esteem, respect for political difference and, above all, the principle of power sharing and of working together, and it led to the sectarianisation of elections: that is, the elections of 2007, in which I was a participant, 2011, 2016 and 2017, and it looks like the Assembly election 2022 is heading in the same direction. The contest will not be about the issues that matter to people: a Covid recovery plan, education, the need for sound infrastructure, the economy or addressing health waiting lists. It will be, “Make me First Minister, so that they don’t get it”. It becomes a confrontation between them and us across the sectarian divide.

PR elections in Northern Ireland were never meant to be about that level of sectarianism. They were meant to be about breaking down barriers and respecting the various viewpoints, whether unionist, nationalist or other, but taking all into the melting pot. We now see that what was contrived at St Andrews has led to the sectarianisation of these elections.

I have had discussions with the noble Lord the Minister about these particular issues, so I am probing at this stage with a view to bringing this back on Report. Can the Minister say whether positive consideration will be given to these amendments? What discussions, if any, have taken place with ministerial colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office and Cabinet Office and with the Prime Minister about their intent and purpose and about the need to desectarianise the elections to the Assembly and the subsequent work in the institutions? We must always bear in mind that strand 1, which dealt with the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive, and strand 2, on the North/South Ministerial Council, are interlinked. One plays off on the other, which from the nationalist perspective gives us that all-Ireland perspective. It is important that the method that is used for the election of the First Ministers is joint, so that they are accountable to the Assembly, are nominated and elected together and are voted on together. We need to go back to that particular position.

There also needs to be an equalisation of titles, as in Amendment 3, so that there is respect for political difference and a sense of agreement and consensus and, above all, so that the principle of consent is the kernel in all this.

I look forward to the Minister’s answers in relation to those two amendments.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, Amendment 4 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Rogan is self-explanatory. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, has said, it brings the proposals back to the arrangements that were entered into in 1998.

I believe of course that no agreement can be set in stone, and this was a multi-party agreement. Therefore, in my view, if you are going to change it, it should be a multi-party change. However, things are done, unfortunately, in back-stairs deals or behind closed doors and without the consent or knowledge of a number of the participants in the process that originally led to the agreement.

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[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I thank all noble Lords and noble Baronesses who have contributed to this wide-ranging debate on these three amendments, which stand variously in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Empey, Lord Rogan, Lord Alderdice, Lord Trimble and Lord Morrow, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Suttie and Lady Smith. We are all coming from our different perspectives, but we all want to see that sense of partnership and of working together and to think about how we achieve that. For my part, I believe that it can best be achieved through the Good Friday agreement and subsequent legislation.

We all have memories in Northern Ireland and, because of our political perspectives, we come forward with the overlay of those memories, so I just caution noble Lords in that respect.

I know that the Minister does not see this Bill as the vehicle for dealing with these issues, as it simply for implementing New Decade, New Approach. I respect that viewpoint, but I know that certain elements of New Decade, New Approach are still outstanding and are, shall we say, outwith this Bill and are the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive; I do not necessarily see much progress in relation to those areas. But I am heartened that, if I have got the Minister’s words correct, the Government are not opposed to some change in the future. I ask the Minister to go back and reflect on the views conveyed today and to have discussions with the Secretary of State and Minister of State. Perhaps he could come back on Report and indicate how the Government intend to move forward in respect of Amendments 2 to 4, whether in this piece of legislation or another.

I do not think that the political infrastructure and the politics of Northern Ireland can wait much longer. We have to get back to the central issues in the agreement of consent, agreement, consensus building, working together, partnership, reconciliation and building that shared society which we so earnestly yearn for.

Rather hesitantly—but I know the procedure in Committee—I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.

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[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, having heard what has been said by the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice and Lord Dodds, I think this is a very sensible amendment and I hope it will be accepted by the Government.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I also accept this amendment and declare an interest, in that I am a former MP and Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, who served in both for a short time. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, that this amendment would prevent a cliff edge from happening, because those who are Members of the Assembly and of Parliament—and many of my colleagues were a Member of Parliament and then became a Member of the Assembly—brought with them a knowledge of legislative procedure. The Northern Ireland Assembly was very different from councils, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said. It was about bringing forward and scrutinising legislation so, in the early days, it was important to have people of experience there.

I am opposed to double-jobbing, but this amendment brings a transitional phase that would help the situation. I recall an election count for the Assembly in 2016, when my colleague Colin McGrath, who had been a member of Newry, Mourne and Down council, was elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly. The chief executive of the council arrived at the same time as Colin McGrath was elected and asked for his letter of resignation and his computer to be handed over there and then. Whereupon Colin McGrath said, “That indicated that you thought I was going to be elected and it was very august of you to think that. But I am not in a position to do either of those things this evening. You will get them on Monday morning”.

What currently exists gives officials an upper hand, of which people may not have been aware, to execute their responsibilities and feel mighty important. I think there is a case for this amendment, in that it provides for the transitional phase, and allows for that essential knowledge to be carried through and for people to bed down while they transfer to their new situation in a fully pledged way. Then it allows for their replacements to be selected and take their place in the Assembly. It is all done not according to a list system, as it was originally, but from internal systems within parties. We are undergoing one in South Down at the minute, and they can cause consternation among friends and colleagues by creating unnecessary rivalry.

It is important that people concentrate on issues, legislation, scrutiny and investigation, rather than who is going to replace who. That is not good politics, in the truest sense of the word, and is not about service and delivery. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, would make sure of continuity in transition, and of concentration on legislation and the issues that matter to people and on which they expect their elected representatives to deliver for them.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for moving Amendment 5 on dual mandates. I am afraid my noble friend Lord Dodds knows me too well on this issue, because I am about to confess to a degree of mea culpa for putting us in this position in the first place. As my noble friend pointed out, the promise to stop the practice of double-jobbing or dual mandates was a commitment made in the 2010 Conservative and Unionist Northern Ireland manifesto, when my party and that of my noble friend Lord Empey put up joint candidates at the general election. I am afraid I actually drafted that section of the manifesto, along with a speech by David Cameron, given at La Mon House on the eve of the poll in 2010, in which he promised to end the scandal of double-jobbing. So my noble friend is absolutely correct.

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[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 6, to which I have added my name. I also see merit in the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, although I see that as an area where a manner of negotiations would be required, which I suggest might happen in the post-election scenario. I recall my colleague, Mark Durkan, at a meeting of the British-Irish Association in 2008 talking about the removal of the “ugly scaffolding”—I think that the noble Lord, Lord Caine, was there that evening. In the fullness of time, the Good Friday agreement was meant to evolve and our society was meant to evolve, through working together, through partnership, through the consent principle and through agreement. We have not necessarily achieved that position, but it is an area where further negotiations might be required.

I support the idea that Ministers should have to take account of the need for and the views of a civic forum. I recall the original Civic Forum that was established as a result of the agreement and the Northern Ireland Act back in 1998. I know many people who were involved in that and made a contribution, from the trade union movement and from civic society, from farming and fishing, because they were policy focused. That can only be good, because they bring their knowledge and their experience, which no doubt can inform Assembly Members and Ministers of the issues that are pertinent at a particular time. In my old constituency of South Down, such issues might be agriculture and fisheries. Nothing lasts for ever; things change, and Brexit was obviously a major change in terms of fishing. People involved directly in those industries can add much, and there is a role for the civic forum, but, more importantly, for Ministers to have due regard to what is said in that. There have been very powerful tools in the form of citizens’ assemblies in the Republic of Ireland, which have helped to change and mould society as it has developed.

I have received a copy of a letter that was sent to the then chair, or former chair, of the Executive Office, who was making inquiries about the outstanding issues of New Decade, New Approach. Reference was made in that agreement to a civic advisory panel, which would be not unlike a civic forum. New Decade, New Approach states:

“The parties recognise the value of structured and flexible engagement with civic society to assist the Government to solve complex policy issues. The Parties have agreed that the existing Compact Civic Advisory Panel should be reformed to include a renewed membership appointed within 6 months”—


that should have been by June 2020—

“by way of a Public Appointments process.”

It is to be noted that this remains an outstanding commitment which was interrupted by the impact of Covid on public engagement generally. The letter to which I referred, from October 2021, stated that work would be initiated to enable the panel, subject to the availability of supporting resources, to come into operation as soon as circumstances permitted to fulfil its intended remit as effectively as possible. I see that as a staging post on the way to the establishment of a civic forum by way of this legislation.

It is interesting that the civic advisory panel has not yet been established. Surely the impetus should have been Covid and the need for an organisation such as that, consisting of people from the trade union movement, civic society, health and social services, the economy, business and manufacturing, and from the retail organisations, to discuss the ingredients of what was required in a Covid recovery plan and help inform Ministers and Members of the Assembly of the most up-to-date thinking in this regard.

While I speak in support of both amendments, recognising that a new set of negotiations would be required in terms of Amendment 7, I ask the Minister: where is the civic advisory panel? Will the Minister and the Government talk urgently to the Northern Ireland Executive about the establishment of this panel? It would only be of benefit, and not a hindrance or impediment, as sometimes Members in the Assembly and even Ministers could think, but they should always see things in terms of compromises and solutions. I support both amendments.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I will just say something briefly on Clause 4 and the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick. A civic forum sounds brilliant, does it not? But I am really not sure what we mean by a civic forum. I presume that this is a probing amendment, because clearly we could not support something where we have no real idea of how anyone would get on to it; who would be representing who; what the rules would be; whether they would get paid to come—would someone coming up from Londonderry/Derry get their fair pay?—or whether it would move around and people would be moving around with it.

I think this is one of those ideas that sound great but in practice would become just another group of people—mainly the same people, probably, who are already involved in politics in the wider sense in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is quite a small place, as those of us who come from there know, and everybody knows everybody, really. Wherever you go, people know somebody who knows somebody—probably sometimes they are even a relative. I am therefore not quite sure how this would work. We have, for example, a very strong Women’s Institute in Northern Ireland, where WI groups meet in the country areas regularly and do great work; we have the Young Farmers’ Clubs; we have all sorts of other organisations already, such as residents, tenants and community associations; and a huge amount of work is being done by churches and community groups. I am just not sure about introducing another layer of supposed democracy and accountability—I am not sure who it would be accountable to, anyway.

I hope that the Minister will treat this with great care, because it is one of those things that sounds good and could be set up, but then we discover that it is in fact pretty meaningless and does not do anything to move things forward in Northern Ireland.

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[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak extremely briefly on Amendment 9, which is tabled in my name and signed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Smith of Basildon. The purpose behind this amendment is really quite straightforward: it is to speed up the implementation of this Bill. It is now two years since New Decade, New Approach was signed, and yet we face growing political tensions ahead of the Assembly elections next year and threats from the DUP to withdraw its Ministers from the Executive as a result of tensions over the Northern Ireland protocol, as illustrated all too clearly in the earlier debate. This Bill would go some way towards managing such a crisis, were that to happen, yet we could potentially find ourselves in a situation where the Bill had been passed by the House of Commons and the House of Lords but, because of the two-month commencement period, the Act could not be deployed in order to help with such a potential crisis.

The Minister indicated at Second Reading that

“if the political situation changes dramatically, that is something that the Government will be prepared to look at during the passage of the Bill”.—[Official Report, 29/11/21; col. 1258.]

Can the Minister repeat that reassurance today? Surely avoiding a political vacuum at such a critical time is in everyone’s best interests. I also look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to the very important points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, not least on the meeting of the board and whether that has happened.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise as a signatory to both amendments and to speak in support of them. To deal with Amendment 8, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has gone through the New Decade, New Approach agreement with a fine-toothed comb and highlighted all the various commitments and undertakings that were made back in January 2020 by two Governments and the parties to a greater or lesser degree.

In many ways, New Decade, New Approach could be characterised as a highly aspirational document. It contains lots of commitments but, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, said, where are the funding commitments to match and deliver those undertakings? For delivery, you need the money. While it could be provided out of the block grant, there are some elements that can be provided only directly from the Exchequer here in London.

However, proposed new subsection (2)(b) in Amendment 8 deals with

“what plans the Government has to bring forward further legislative proposals to implement the remainder of The New Decade, New Approach Deal.”

I look at what has not been addressed or fulfilled yet and, by and large, I would say that some of that is perhaps down to differences within the Executive Office between the First and Deputy First Ministers, as well as to the concentration of work on Covid, and now, obviously, we have the new variant.

There is a need for a bill of rights. We have been talking about it since 1998. Loads of meetings have been held in the Assembly on the bill of rights, we are still no further forward. We are told that the Northern Ireland Assembly Ad Hoc Committee on a Bill of Rights has received 45 briefings from experts since September 2020, and it recently held a public call for evidence which attracted 2,400 responses. The committee is due to report in February 2022. There is a panel of experts who are intended to assist the committee, but who have yet to be appointed. When will that happen? Promises were made about an age, goods, facilities and services Bill to prevent discrimination against people because of their age. Perhaps some of us might fall into that category at some stage, or perhaps we are already do.

Then there are the more fundamental issues: rights, language and identity proposals. Although that is within the remit of the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, I do not see a lot of movement there. Can the Minister indicate whether the Government here at Westminster intend to legislate for them? I have already referred to the civic advisory panel, upon which there has been no significant movement. It was to be established within six months, which should have been June 2020, and we still have not heard about it. On the programme for government, New Decade, New Approach says:

“There will be a multi-year Programme for Government, underpinned by a multi-year budget and legislative programme.”


The public consultation on the draft programme for government outcomes framework closed on 22 March this year, some 14 months after New Decade, New Approach. A total of 416 responses were provided to the main consultation on the equality impact assessment and, in addition, there were 23 responses to an associated children and young people’s consultation. The feedback received demonstrates that there remains strong support for the outcomes-based approach and for the draft outcomes as consulted upon. The Executive hopes to be in a position to have a final revised version of the outcomes framework as soon as possible. That begs the question of whether the Northern Ireland Executive are currently working according to a programme for government or what are they working towards and how do they get or achieve that collective responsibility?

The amendment in my name and the names of my noble friends Lord Coaker and Lady Smith is timely. It seeks to ensure that the commitments that were to be undertaken by the UK Government and by the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly should be brought forward in an expeditious way for the benefit of all the community of Northern Ireland, properly costed, with a column indicating how much money, where it is coming from and when it will be spent.

On Amendment 9, in my name and the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and my noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon, it is vital that we have commencement with Royal Assent. New Decade, New Approach is now 23 months old, and it is important that some fundamental issues in the Bill to do with the appointment of Ministers, elections and petitions of concern are put in place immediately.

For too long we have seen the misuse of the petition of concern. It was never meant to be a petition of veto but a petition that helped minorities and which understood and appreciated the issues they raised. It was not meant to be a petition of objection but was to be used as a special proofing procedure during which a special Assembly committee would hear specifically from the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. It was meant to be equality and human rights focused, and to be used as a proofing procedure to ensure that rights were upheld. It was never there to prevent rights being legislated for.

In that regard, it is important that the Government look kindly and benignly on both Amendments 8 and 9 —I urge the Minister to do this—and provide indications of acceptance in relation to them. That would allow the timely implementation of this Act to coincide with the end of the current Assembly in March, with Assembly elections on 5 or 6 May.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I am sorry to disappoint the Minister; I hope that will not happen on too many occasions. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. I thank the noble Lord for moving this amendment, raising the issues that he has and exploring with the Government the commitments entered into by the UK Government in Annex A of New Decade, New Approach. He is right to do so and we are grateful to him. The noble Baroness has highlighted a number of areas of interest that are worth exploring today in Grand Committee for the Minister to respond to.

I want to take the opportunity, in this discussion of Amendment 8 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, to add a few words about some of the commitments that the Government have entered into. There were quite a number of commitments. Certainly, during the negotiations our party was very keen that the Government would commit to a range of actions, funding and other objectives. It was not just a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly parties; the Government have a big role to play in making that Assembly work well and providing it with the necessary resources to make that happen.

I want to highlight briefly a couple of matters. I know the Minister will not be able to give detailed answers on all of them but perhaps he can take them away and if necessary write to us or explore further how he thinks things can proceed. I am interested in the section on financial and economic commitments to Northern Ireland. Under the heading “Turbocharging infrastructure”, the Government commit to helping to turbocharge infrastructure in Northern Ireland and set out a number of capital projects, such as “Essential sewage investment” and “The ‘Better Connecting Dublin and Belfast’ Strategy”. One of those mentioned is the York Street interchange, yet we have had very disturbing news in recent days that that interchange may not now be proceeding. I am not au fait with all the details but that is a key, major improvement that would greatly benefit connectivity in Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland’s economy. It was one of the things that we discussed as part of the confidence and supply agreement, which the Minister was very much part of helping to get settled. It was very much seen as a major driver in terms of infrastructure investment.

For those noble Lords who have not had the pleasure of visiting Northern Ireland and travelling along the west link—I put “pleasure” in inverted commas, particularly at certain times of the day—unfortunately, despite this major project designed to alleviate congestion, it has become one of the most congested roads in the United Kingdom. Unfortunately, according to reports Belfast is now the third most congested city in the entire United Kingdom in terms of traffic. So, we need to get up to speed—literally—on these issues. The problem is that we have a major link designed to link the M1 to the M3 and M2, but when it was being designed some bright spark came up with the idea of putting a set of traffic lights at the end of it. As a result, the whole purpose of the link has been under-mined.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 19th January 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick]

1: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause—
“First Minister and deputy First Minister to be referred to as Joint First Ministers
The First Minister and deputy First Minister elected under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 are to be referred to as Joint First Ministers, and all references in that Act (other than to their election) to the First Minister and deputy First Minister are to be read as references to the Joint First Ministers.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause provides that First Minister and deputy First Minister be referred to as Joint First Ministers reflecting their identical status, powers and responsibilities.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 1 is in my name. I also support Amendment 2 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey. Amendment 1 would provide that the

“First Minister and deputy First Minister be referred to as Joint First Ministers reflecting their identical status, powers and responsibilities.”

At Second Reading, I indicated that the Good Friday agreement provided a level of hope and expectancy back in May 1998, and that we in Northern Ireland want

“to use the architecture of the Good Friday agreement to work together in partnership, reconciliation, parity of esteem and respect for difference. Those are the kernels we urgently need to build the political stability and resilience of government.”—[Official Report, 29/11/21; col. 1234.]

We need to revert to that position through the title of Joint First Minister for the good delivery of policies, for proper identification, for equality, for reconciliation and, in terms of that good delivery of policies and operational matters, for the people of Northern Ireland. Why do I say that? To recreate that hope and sense of fairness and equality that we all felt back in 1998.

Central to the Good Friday agreement were consensus and the principle of consent. As I said, the agreement contained the infrastructure and architecture that provided the framework for people to work together with respect, mutual understanding, trust and confidence in each other. Those basic principles were also discussed at St Andrews but there was a change of emphasis in terms of the appointment of the First and deputy First Ministers, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, will refer to when he introduces his amendment.

Now, we need to build on this Bill and return to that vision of 1998, which created the infrastructure and architecture to manage differences and realise a better shared future based on partnership and working together in Northern Ireland. It is important that we revert to the spirit of the 1998 agreement. I believe that this amendment in my name, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, has added her name, would ensure that the Joint First Ministers are classified as such to demonstrate that they have identical status, powers and responsibilities. I firmly believe that this would confer on the people of Northern Ireland the sense of responsibility that the Northern Ireland Executive have, and it would help them to see people physically and ethically working together because, to all intents and purposes, both posts are equal. This also needs to be reflected in the way they are elected, hence my support for the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey.

Both amendments would provide a solution to the Government in that they would de-sectarianise the Assembly election coming up on 5 May; diminish the focus of the election on, “Make me First Minister and do not let that other party and them ones get in”; and ensure that the election concentrates on health, post-pandemic recovery, jobs, education, the economy and improving the lives of people, which is what politics should be about and which we discuss in this House and the other place on a day-to-day basis.

I note that the Minister indicated in Committee that he was sympathetic to the intent and import of this amendment but felt that, at this stage, the Bill was not the “right vehicle” as it is about the legislative commitments in New Decade, New Approach. In the past week, we have seen other commitments that were definitely outwith that agreement that were going to be made but, as I understand it, will now not be made. What is the position of the Government now? Are they and the Minister acting on their behalf prepared to accept this amendment, which would help to stabilise the institutions, diminish the volatile situation and further prevent the instability that currently exists or could exist in a post-election sphere?

If the Government cannot accept this amendment today, can the Minister give other types of assurances to your Lordships’ House about how it can be, shall we say, discussed or legislated for in terms of negotiations in the future?

I have a word of warning. My belief and understanding is that things may not be all that settled in the post-election sphere and that, therefore, it may be better to do things at this juncture to bring about that necessary political stability. In that vein, I beg to move.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the amendment that the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, just moved, and I say that as somebody who was not a fan of the Belfast agreement when it was signed. I opposed it, I hasten to add, not on orange or green grounds but on democratic grounds—being Ulster Catholic on one side and Scots Presbyterian on the other, I always felt I had a bit of a personal stake in power-sharing. However, I did not like the way that there was no proper opposition, the way it enshrined all the parties being in office, and the implication that things would become a scramble to reward supporters of those parties with public sector positions. I lost that argument—Northern Ireland went in a different direction and there is now a consensus behind it.

However, having gone down that road, it seems, as the noble Baroness says, that this is closing a loophole. We have decided to create these two positions as effectively coequal. The only difference between them is one of nomenclature, and if that is causing a sense of inequality or, if you like, forced competition in elections, as the noble Baroness said, it seems a quite small alteration that this amendment would address. Of course, I understand that the Bill is primarily about something else but I reiterate her call and hope that my noble friend the Minister will keep it under consideration.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to everybody who has spoken in this debate. If the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said one thing that is incontestable, it is that this has been a very wide-ranging debate indeed. Following the comments of my noble friend Lord Empey, I might try to do something which seems increasingly unfashionable in the House these days, which is to stick to the Standing Orders and confine my comments to the amendments before the House, and not repeat at length arguments and debates that have taken place in Committee and on Second Reading.

The issues covered in the amendments before us were debated at length in Committee on 13 December. As I made clear at the time, I am not without a great deal of sympathy for the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, and my noble friend Lord Empey. Indeed, I am on record over a number of years as saying that I prefer the 1998 model of appointing the First and Deputy First Ministers, which was subsequently changed at St Andrews. I do not for one second doubt the sincere motives of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, in seeking the agreement which he achieved in 2006 and implemented in 2006-07, but my personal preference is always for the parallel consent model of 1998.

As a number of noble Lords have said, a cardinal principle of the political process and the implementation of agreements in Northern Ireland since the mid-1990s has been the sufficient consensus rule. My noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn made that point very powerfully, as did my noble friend Lord Bew. The sufficient consensus rule means that any significant changes to or departures from those agreements require the support of parties representing majorities of unionism and majorities of nationalism. Indeed, that is how we got the Belfast agreement in the first place.

As some noble Lords have mentioned, this Bill is about implementing New Decade, New Approach. I was involved in a lot of the discussions between 2017, following the collapse of the institutions after the resignation of Martin McGuinness, and July 2019. In fact, to digress for just a second, I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for his kind words absolving me of any responsibility for the actions of a number of Conservative Secretaries of State. He then made the exception of Julian Smith—who, of course, was the only one I did not work for, but I take his comments in the spirit in which I hope they were intended.

As I said, this is about New Decade, New Approach. During the discussions that formed the basis of that document, a number of these issues were raised. There was not sufficient consensus, and they did not appear in the final document.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, that none of this is to say that the Government have a closed mind to change in future. The Belfast agreement has not stayed set in stone over the years: there were changes at St Andrews and at Stormont House. Indeed, I was interested to hear my noble friend Lord Hannan say that one of the reasons he was opposed to the Belfast agreement was the lack of opposition. Actually, in the Stormont House agreement—the fresh start agreement—and subsequently in New Decade, New Approach, there are provisions to facilitate the functioning of a proper opposition within the Assembly. So, things do not always remain static. We are open to change so long as those changes are consistent with the underlying and enduring principles of the Belfast agreement, which have to be based around inclusive power-sharing government.

In asking the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment and my noble friend Lord Empey not to move his, I will give a clear commitment from the Dispatch Box: these issues are not going to go away, and after the election, whatever the outcome might be, I and the Government are very happy to have discussions with the political parties to test the appetite for any further reforms along the lines suggested in this afternoon’s debate. In that spirit, I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this rather omnibus, wide-ranging debate. It has referred to the contents of the amendments, and to matters of a very raw political nature that are outwith the responsibilities of this technical Bill, which nevertheless has great political implications for all of Northern Ireland.

In this wide-ranging debate we have had those who support the amendments and those who do not, but I would like to think that all of us in this House want to see peace, stability and reconciliation, and proper partnership government in Northern Ireland that delivers for all the people on education, health and the economy.

Various contentious issues were mentioned in this debate, such as the protocol, which we will come to later. Noble Lords also mentioned the past and legacy issues, which very much need to be resolved. We also mentioned cultural and Irish language issues. I am a Gaeilgeoir; I did Irish at school and attended the Irish college in Donegal in two separate summers, because my mother wanted me to. But I believe in that element of diversity, and I believe in respect for political difference, ethnic difference and racial difference. I would like to see that right across the community.

Therefore, I am pleased that the Minister has indicated he is not without sympathy for these amendments and that the Government intend to come back, post election, and have discussions with the parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly to further explore the appetite for these issues. But I offer a note of warning. Because the political situation is particularly fragile—as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and others—my fear is that we may not have those political institutions in a way that is enduring, or capable of delivering for people in Northern Ireland in a post-election sense. That is because of all the turmoil, not necessarily but mostly around the protocol, and other political issues that have sought to threaten those very institutions.

It is very important that we do not walk away from these issues. In view of the Minister’s commitments at this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment but point out that I will return to these issues. I hope that in those negotiations, although they relate to strand 1, the Irish Government—as the other co-guarantor of the agreement—are involved as well.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

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[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Having warmly supported the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, at Committee stage, I welcome the fact that we are to have regular six-monthly reports on the commitments which the British Government gave in the New Decade, New Approach document. It is very important that this House is made fully aware of what our Government here at Westminster is doing, working closely with the devolved Executive and Assembly, to secure progress in Northern Ireland. These six-monthly statements will bring home to us the extent to which the British Government are, we hope, working successfully.

As for the Irish Republic, I would welcome—and I am sure the House would welcome—news of developments which assist both sides of the border in social and economic co-operation. That is what we all welcome. But I hope that nothing will be forthcoming that intrudes on British sovereignty over Northern Ireland; that matters above all. So I welcome very much the six-monthly reports—and I hope they will the subject of debate in this House from time to time—to show how progress is being made in Northern Ireland with the assistance of our Government in co-operation with the Executive and the Assembly.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I support what the Minister said, particularly in relation to the commencement date being fixed in legislation. I also support my noble friend Lord Coaker in relation to the reports on the New Decade, New Approach implementation period.

I am conscious of the devolution settlement, but I am also conscious of the fact that the Northern Ireland Executive had commitments to deliver with respect to the New Decade, New Approach. As part of that statement, would it be possible to provide a few columns about the progress of these commitments? The Minister and I are only too aware of the delays in responses to the areas of the common frameworks that were devolved from the European Union to the UK and the devolved regions in the post-Brexit scenario. Nothing happened in terms of Northern Ireland during the three-year interregnum, so we need to know, in an expeditious way, how the Northern Ireland Executive are implementing their commitments, notwithstanding the need to protect the devolution settlement. If there could be a section in the Minister’s statement to that effect, I would greatly appreciate it.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I too thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for tabling this amendment in Committee, and I think we had a very useful debate there about the Government’s commitments under NDNA—because there were many. I also thank the Minister for his commitment to a regular written statement and I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, that hopefully we can have a debate on those issues from time to time. I also have no issue with the earlier commencement date, as tabled by the Minister in Amendment 9.

On Amendment 3, I want to ask the Minister, since this is a new amendment, to clarify its intention. It is very technical and complicated; it is to do with the transitional arrangements if things were to happen before Royal Assent of the Bill. I would like to be clear, so that the Minister has it on the record, what exactly this clause will do. It talks about events happening

“within the period of seven days ending when this Act comes into force”.

But, if we do not know exactly when the Act is coming into force, things could happen that are caught, but there is no idea at the time that they would be caught, because suddenly Royal Assent happens. It is a very vague formulation. I wonder why it is there and what it is intended to capture—as opposed to saying, for instance, that the Act will apply after a certain date. I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify, in winding up, the import of the clause.

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There is a labour here and an obligation on the United Kingdom in these negotiations to get this right—from really a weak negotiating position. I urge the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, not to push this amendment. The last thing in the world that would do any good at this point in this difficult negotiation is for us to say: “By the way, the last concession you gave us, we are tearing up.” We cannot possibly do it. Our duty now is to try to convey to the EU what implementing all aspects of the Good Friday agreement actually means and how this requires a balanced outcome that both communities in Northern Ireland can live with.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bew, and I am only sorry that when I took politics at Queen’s he was not a lecturer then; he came in several years later. His speech was very interesting and I think we are all much better informed because of it.

It will be no surprise to Members of your Lordships’ House that I support the protocol. I say that rather advisedly because it is a matter of contention in Northern Ireland. We must remember that the protocol arose out of Brexit and that is the fundamental issue. The people of Northern Ireland, including me, voted to reject Brexit and they wanted to remain in the European Union, but history is history, and we have to respect particular outcomes.

Therefore, in this context, it is vital that we see a successful outcome to the current negotiations between the UK and the EU. We want to see a successful outcome covering such important issues for the people in Northern Ireland as the SPS veterinary agreements, medicines, customs issues and the democratic deficit. The UK Government published a Command Paper back in July. I did not agree with the content. The European Union then produced a series of non-papers—as they are characterised—in October. Both sets of papers naturally form the basis for the ongoing negotiations.

Quite honestly, I think that it is preferable at this stage to allow the negotiations to take their course. Can the Minister advise us on what stage they are at? The Minister and I, along with the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Dodds, were at a meeting yesterday with the Minister for Europe, Chris Heaton-Harris, who sits in the other place. He could not necessarily give a timetable for the completion of the negotiations, but it is vital that they are dealt with in an expeditious manner and provide solutions for all the people in Northern Ireland, including the business community and wider society.

I am a supporter of the protocol, but I want to see those—let us call them—mitigations whereby the people of Northern Ireland are able to trade within the UK internal market and the EU single market and we are all able to realise the opportunities. We have already seen those benefits so it is important that they are documented and emphasised in terms of new businesses and new opportunities for investment. They are there.

Those in the business community do not want to be saddled with the politics of this issue. They want to see business opportunities opening up in this post-Covid situation and the whole community in Northern Ireland prospering. It is much better that we await the outcome of these negotiations, which I feel should be dealt with in a very expeditious manner. Many people have been talking about instability. It is those who were perhaps involved in actions of instability who are creating the instability.

It is important that we refrain from such language and try to go back to encouraging both participants in the negotiations to complete them as quickly as possible, covering all those areas, so that outcomes are achieved that bring an improvement for all the people of Northern Ireland.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, Northern Ireland has been a matter that I have thought of as very difficult in this situation for quite a long time. I believe that the explanations that have just been given by the two speakers who went before me are vital in trying to get a settlement that will be sufficiently good for all the interests in Northern Ireland. If we are going to do that, it will be by a pretty full solution to a difficult problem.

In my view, there are no reasons just now to create more difficulty than we have to deal with. Therefore, I am very much in favour of what has been said in regard to the law about this and particularly the negotiations situation, which we need to solve. Negotiation is the only way in which we will get this right, and I hope and pray that the negotiations will be entirely successful and that the people of Northern Ireland will get a bargain that will work for them from now on.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

I appreciate the noble Baroness’s sentiments. To give one example, I recall that, in the aftermath of the referendum, the then First Minister, Arlene Foster, and the then Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, wrote a letter to the then Prime Minister setting out the Northern Ireland Executive’s priorities for the negotiations. Of course, shortly thereafter, for reasons that we are all too familiar with, the Assembly and the Executive went into abeyance for three years, but I take the point. I was there for a good deal of that period, and there was a lot of engagement going on, but we lacked the formal mechanism of the Executive.

On engagement, my understanding is that the Minister for Europe is due to be in Northern Ireland tomorrow to meet a number of business organisations and individual businesses. He has held meetings with Members of your Lordships’ House in the past few days. This morning, along with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Europe Minister, I attended a regular meeting with the First and Deputy First Ministers of Northern Ireland; that will be an ongoing process. We recognise the need for strong engagement on these matters.

I want to go back to the reasons for urging the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in a very wise contribution, emphasised the ongoing nature of the discussions and the fact that we need to try to give those discussions breathing space to reach a successful conclusion.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for taking my intervention. In his wind-up, will he give us his estimation, following discussions today, of a date for the implementation of these negotiations or for their conclusion? They are absolutely vital because we do not want to see them impinge—although many believe that they will—on the election itself.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, attended the meeting with the Minister for Europe yesterday at which I was present. I think that issue was raised then, and he was unable to put an absolute timeframe on this. If he cannot do so, I do not think I can answer that question directly from the Dispatch Box other than to say that the Government are seized of the urgency of this matter and the need to come to a resolution as expeditiously as possible. I take on board what the noble Baroness said and the comments in this respect from a number of Members from Northern Ireland behind me from the Democratic Unionist Party and the Ulster Unionist Party, and from the noble Lord, Lord Bew.

My final point relates to the nature of the amendments, which effectively would ask Parliament unilaterally to change an existing agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union as set out in the unilateral declaration, the protocol and the withdrawal agreement. While negotiations are going on with the EU, it would not necessarily be helpful to those negotiations if we were to change an existing international agreement with the EU. That does not strike me as probably the most helpful way forward in negotiations. With those comments, I urge the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, to consider withdrawing the amendment.