Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 10th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I begin the first of the winding-up speeches by saying how much I welcome our three maiden speakers and by remarking on the excellence of their speeches. I look forward to their further contributions.

This a significant Bill. There are aspects of it that I strongly support. I do believe that we should tailor regulation to the UK market, although I am of the community that thinks this refers much more to the efficiency of the way that rules are applied than to the removal of gold-plating. I hope that I do not misspeak for the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, when I say that the absence of profound change would be rather welcomed by most of those I talk to in the financial services industry. I support protection for access to cash, protection against push payment scams, greater scope for credit unions and beginning attempts to regulate crypto assets. In some of these areas, we on these Benches will have amendments to strengthen those changes.

There are missed opportunities. My noble friend Lord Sharkey is leading for us to introduce an effective duty of care, unlike the box-ticking of the consumer duty, and to adjust the regulatory perimeter to properly include small businesses. My noble friend Lady Tyler will lead for us on an objective of financial inclusion, as well as dealing with issues around access to cash and to services. My noble friends Lady Northover and Lady Sheehan are leading on strengthening the net-zero and biodiversity elements of the regulators’ roles. And I think the House is now prepared to understand that my noble friend Lady Bowles is proposing changes to make the regime far more effective at enforcement, including against fraud; to drive regulatory efficiency; and to significantly improve monitoring of systemic risk and financial stability across the financial sector. I suspect that yet more amendments will be coming from her pen.

All of us on these Benches are concerned with accountability. I was going to list everyone who spoke on this issue, but I would have to read out virtually every name engaged in the debate. From my perspective, powers that had democratic oversight in the EU system will be transferred wholesale to regulators with pretty much no engagement with a meaningful democratic process once this Bill is passed. As many have said, the Treasury Select Committee has taken steps to improve its oversight, but it is far too little and I agree with those who say that it is retrospective, which is not what we need. I look to my noble friend Lady Bowles in particular to craft a series of amendments.

In this Second Reading, I want to take a step back and ask to what extent the changes introduced in this Bill, combined with what the Chancellor calls “the Edinburgh reforms”, which are, of course, largely coming through secondary legislation, reintroduce risks to the sector and to financial stability that existed prior to the 2007 crash and set us up for the next major crisis. The financial crash was driven by the deliberate disguise of risky assets and irresponsible management by major banks. Consumers endured abuse from extensive mis-selling and, astonishingly, Libor was corruptly manipulated for at least a decade.

Today, we have a shadow banking system—I have to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the noble Lord, Lord Butler; I am afraid this glass of water will not turn into wine, as happened for the noble Lord, Lord Balfe—which now almost matches the formal banking system in size and has embedded new levels of risk. I think LDI, is an example and I say to the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, that it was the leveraging of those instruments using a loophole that caused the problem. Give them an inch and they take 10 miles, and it continues to be true of the sector.

I accept that some change to Solvency II makes sense, but many insurers see its replacement by solvency UK, which will be empowered by this Bill, as the gateway to extensive investment in high-risk illiquid assets, sub-investment grade—I have talked to the industry—without compensating capital requirements. I am very concerned at the weakening of the matching adjustment. I think the Government are mesmerised by the hope that these investments will fund upscaling of new companies, net-zero projects and high-risk infrastructure with somehow no real risk involved. I suspect a lot will go to remuneration and dividends, frankly. I am constantly referred to the Canadian Pension Plan Investment Board as evidence that a fund can safely invest in high-risk illiquid assets without being burned. I quote from the S&P Global Ratings Review of the CPP:

“The rating also reflects the agency’s opinion of a moderately high likelihood that the Canadian government would provide extraordinary support in the event of financial distress.”


I wonder how much the UK taxpayer wishes to stand behind our insurance industry—and in many senses it also involves the pension industry—with a moderately high likelihood of extraordinary support in the event of financial distress? Taxpayers cannot keep bailing out the financial sector.

The financial services sector, especially the City, is also aggressively behind the international competitiveness objective in this Bill. Many want it elevated to a primary objective. This was discussed by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, and the noble Lord, Lord Remnant, in his maiden speech. Actually, I may do injustice to the noble Lord, Lord Remnant, on that. He may have said that he is happy with it as a secondary objective. They believe that the regulators—again, I talk with the industry extensively—will find that this objective combined with the mutual recognition agreements in trade negotiations, which, of course, do not come to Parliament for approval, will force UK regulation to be lowered to match that of trade partners, and I suggest that that is very dangerous.

I quote from Paul Tucker, former deputy governor of the Bank of England, in evidence in November to the Economic Affairs Committee:

“please do not, as the UK Parliament, give the Prudential Regulation Authority a competitiveness objective. Someone would only do that if they really disliked the City of London and wanted to damage the City of London in the long run ... I can summon the ghosts of Eddie George and George Blunden in assuring you that the City does not always know its best interests over the medium to long run.”

We are of course bleeding financial services business to the EU and other global financial centres. Financial services exports to the EU are down more than 6%, and it will get seriously worse when euro clearing leaves in 2025, but regulatory arbitrage is not the answer. I am with those who are convinced that a strong rulebook is essential to the reputation and success of the financial services industry as well as the necessary bulwark against a repeat crisis which would create years of damage to the UK economy and bring many further years of austerity.

But the Chancellor has gone farther. The Edinburgh reforms set up processes to weaken the ring-fencing of core retail banking from investment and international banking. I urge the House to stop this in its tracks. Like the most reverend Primate, I sat on the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards for nearly two years. Few things fuelled irresponsible behaviour more than the banks’ ability to use what they saw as the free and insured money sitting in personal bank accounts to roll on high-risk casino banking. Add to that the lifting of the cap on bankers’ bonuses and we set up actual incentives for another risk and greed-fuelled crisis.

The Edinburgh reforms also set up a process to change the senior managers and certification regime. My dispute with the SMCR is that the FCA has made it into a box-ticking exercise that does not fulfil its primary purpose to act severely against individual senior managers who fail in their duties, either deliberately or through mismanagement and incompetence. My noble friend Lord Sharkey discussed this. Instead of returning that regime to its original purpose, the industry is very confident that the Edinburgh reforms will remove individual responsibility completely. I suggest that Members of the House visit the evidence given to the commission. Virtually every senior manager, including the CEOs, pleaded a mix of incompetence and collective responsibility to explain away the failures in their institution and why they could not be held to account.

This is a Bill we have to get right. Risk applies asymmetrically in the financial services industry. In the 2007-08 crash, almost no senior manager or executive was hurt and, indeed, almost every one of them walked away with years of bonuses based on what were really false profits. The taxpayer and ordinary people, coping with the austerity that followed—never mind the funds that had to go into the banking system—bore the real cost. On the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, we were very afraid that after a few years the lessons of the crash and the abuse would be forgotten and the new safeguards watered down. This is an industry that knows how to promote itself and speaks with a great sense of invincibility. As we work our way through the Bill, we should keep at the front of our minds the concern that those safeguards, which were so necessary, will be pushed to be watered down.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 25th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, I have just one brief point. I agree with the comments so far made that this may not be the appropriate place to deal with the whole problem of delegation, because this deals with revocation, although the amendment sensibly deals with what is inevitable, which is the replacement. It seems to me that parliamentary scrutiny is essential. We need to come back to this time and time again.

It is essential because, unlike the position of a Minister or that of a Government, we have, first, the issue of the accountability of regulators and, secondly, we do not want to politicise regulators. That is Parliament’s job. Therefore, we have to scrutinise this whole area, where we are moving financial services to regulators and away from being dealt with largely through a political process in the European Union. We are hoping to make great improvements, but the one thing we are losing is the input of the political process. One cannot pretend that the direction of financial services policy is not a political question as well as a regulatory question. Politics should be for this House and, although I hate to use this word, we should not taint the regulators with politics.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I must agree with every word that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, has just said. I thank my colleague and noble friend Lord Sharkey for putting this amendment where it is, because the fundamental constitutional issue that underpins this Bill is probably one of the most crucial that we will address, not just in the next days of debate but, frankly, as a Parliament. I think that if the public had any sense of the authority that is now, in a sense, being passed to regulators without accountability—and to some extent to the Treasury without accountability—frankly, they would look at us and say to Parliament, “That is a dereliction of duty. We expect you to be responsible”.

This is not just a political process but part of a fundamental democratic process. As others, including the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, have said, what could be more fundamental than framing an industry that not only determines so much of our national economy but, when it goes badly wrong, can completely undermine that whole economy. I very much support the amendment brought by my noble friend. I know that it was tabled to trigger discussion and I look forward to the further debate that we will have later.

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[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak first to Amendments 1, 244 and 245, before turning to the government amendments in this group.

With respect to Amendment 1, the Government are seeking the agreement of Parliament to repeal all retained EU law in financial services so that the UK can move to a comprehensive FSMA model of regulation, whereby the independent regulators make rules in line with their statutory objectives as set by Parliament and in accordance with the procedures that Parliament has put in place.

As the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, noted, it is not the Government’s intention to commence the repeal of retained EU law in financial services without ensuring appropriate replacement through UK law. That commitment was made by the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, including to the Treasury Select Committee and, as the noble Lord noted, in our memo to the DPRRC. His Majesty’s Treasury will commence a revocation only once appropriate secondary legislation and rules are in place.

Parliament will therefore play a key role in scrutinising any replacement secondary legislation. Where the Treasury replaces retained EU law through the powers in the Bill, this will almost always be subject to the affirmative procedure, with some limited exceptions specified in the Bill.

I recognise the wider debate in the House of Lords about secondary legislation and its scrutiny. I will resist the invitation from my noble friend Lord Naseby for this Bill to be the place where we address that wider debate. I point out to noble Lords that, in its report on the Bill, although the DPRRC did not bring to the attention of the House the delegated powers related to retained EU law, it did report on one specific issue regarding hybrid instruments, which I will respond to shortly. The committee commended the Treasury for

“a thorough and helpful delegated powers memorandum.”

That is not to say that the question of parliamentary scrutiny of the provisions in the Bill and the regulations that will be made under it is not important. I know that we will return to it many times during this Committee.

The Government have made efforts to set out how the framework provided by the Bill will work in practice. As part of the Edinburgh reforms, the Government published their approach in a document entitled Building a Smarter Financial Services Framework for the UK, which makes it clear that they will carefully sequence the repeal to avoid unnecessary disruption, and there will be no gaps in regulation. The Government have also recently published three illustrative statutory instruments under the powers in the Bill to facilitate scrutiny of the powers under which they will be made in Parliament.

It is also worth noting, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd did, that large parts of retained EU law will be replaced by the regulators through their rules. The regulators have the tools and expertise to make rules at pace, in line with their statutory objectives, within a model of appropriate parliamentary scrutiny and oversight. Clause 36 of the Bill supports Parliament in that scrutiny and oversight, requiring the PRA and the FCA to notify the Treasury Select Committee when they consult on rules and to respond to any representations made by that Committee. That is a specific element of the provisions to which we will return at a later stage in Committee.

Ahead of considering the Bill, the Treasury Committee itself considered the appropriate model for parliamentary scrutiny of regulatory rules, concluding that effective scrutiny of regulatory proposals should be carried out through a targeted approach, with Parliament scrutinising proposals in more detail where there is a public interest in its doing so. The Government consider that the provisions of the Bill are consistent with the recommendations of the Treasury Committee.

I turn now to Amendments 244 and 245 tabled by my noble friend Lady Noakes. I can assure her that the Government intend to act at pace to complete the repeal and replacement of retained EU law, but we must also act in a way that allows everyone to adapt to the new model. That will often require the regulators to make replacement rules, which must be done in line with the appropriate procedures for consultation and engagement, as noble Lords have pointed out. As my noble friend Lady Altmann pointed out, there is a balance to be struck between the pace at which we undertake that work and the proper processes for consultation and scrutiny that that will need to be subject to.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I am sorry to interrupt, but perhaps the Minister could clarify something we discussed before. What she describes puts Parliament in the position of a consultee, which I do not believe is the appropriate role for a democratically elected Parliament. Can she confirm that that is exactly what she is saying?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

No, that is not what I am saying; I am saying that we will have procedures in place to allow Parliament to scrutinise legislation. We will also have procedures in place to ensure that, as part of that, relevant parliamentary committees can be notified of work by the regulators. That is just one aspect of how Parliament will conduct its role in the scrutiny of financial services, legislation and regulation. While the notification of consultations is one aspect, there are many others, such as the procedures for secondary legislation, the other procedures that Select Committees have to scrutinise the regulators’ work, the procedures for the provision of annual reports laid before Parliament, and others. So Parliament will be notified of consultations, but that does not imply that the Government view Parliament simply as a consultee in the process.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

No, it does not. This comes back to the point about prioritisation. It represents the Government’s initial prioritisation of the measures where they think that making amendments or using the powers under this Bill to repeal the retained EU law and put in place regulator rules under our new model would have the biggest or most important effect. There will be subsequent work to do after what is set out in that vision, but in sequencing it is important that we direct our efforts and resources to measures that will make the most difference.

My noble friend asked how the regulators and the Government can be incentivised to complete the replacement of EU law in a timely way. We are working closely with the regulators to co-ordinate the programme to deliver the rules and legislation that will be necessary to enact the repeal of retained EU law. Where necessary, the Treasury could use the power under Clause 28 of this Bill, which sets requirements on the regulators to make rules in specific areas of regulation. So there would be that option within the powers in the Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, asked about the difference in approach in this Bill from that in the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill. Unlike the approach taken in that Bill, this Bill repeals retained EU law in financial services, as set out in Schedule 1. The Government will continue to repeal and replace the contents of Schedule 1 until we have an established a comprehensive FSMA model of regulation. It will take time for regulators to make, and for industry to adapt to, technical and less important rules, as well as delivering major reforms. The Treasury developed a bespoke approach to financial services, given the existing role of the regulations to preserve that and bring the regulatory regime into line with the FSMA model.

I hope I have addressed the points about the desire to complete this work in a timely way, the need to balance that with resources for regulators and, indeed, industry to adapt to this change, and the importance that the Government place on therefore prioritising the work so that those reforms that have the biggest impact will take place earliest.

I turn to the government amendments in this group, Amendments 20, 28, 29, 242 and 243, which are all in my name. The Treasury undertook an extensive exercise to identify retained EU law relating to financial services to be repealed by this Bill, listed in Schedule 1. Late last year, the National Archives identified additional pieces of retained EU law across the statute book, some of which relate to financial services. The Government have also, through their own work, become aware of a small number of additional pieces. Amendments 2 to 20 make changes to Schedule 1 as a result of this. Government Amendments 2 to 16 and 18 add a number of statutory instruments, and Amendments 19 and 20 place three provisions in FSMA into Schedule 1 to be repealed. Amendment 17 removes one statutory instrument from the schedule, which was included in error, due to containing a small amount of retained EU law alongside largely domestic legislation.

I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, that every effort has been made to identify all legislation that should be repealed though this process. If he looks at the balance of what we have identified and what is in these amendments, it was a comprehensive job. None the less, to be as transparent as possible, when we find further measures that would be provided for under this Bill, we have sought to include them by way of amendment.

Amendment 28 clarifies the legislative effect of Clause 3, ensuring that the Government have the necessary tools to create a comprehensive FSMA model of regulation. It does so by clarifying that the Treasury can use the powers in Clauses 3 and 4 to create powers to make further regulations. Under the FSMA model, the Government are responsible for setting the regulatory perimeter via secondary legislation. There may be times in future when, for example, the Treasury will need the ability to update key definitions that sit within legislation restated under Clause 4, to clarify what sits within the UK’s regulatory perimeter.

Amendment 29 makes a technical fix to the explanation requirement in Clause 6, requiring the Bank of England to explain how updates to its rules are compatible with its new regulatory principles, introduced by Clause 45.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

May I ask again for a bit more clarification, which I specifically asked for on Amendment 28? Is the Minister saying that this is a power for the Treasury to amend primary legislation outside the Bill through secondary legislation designed to enhance the powers of the regulators? Is that what this is? I tried reading the letter but it did not get me any further.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My understanding is that Amendment 28 contains powers to provide for amending secondary legislation, not primary legislation. I will seek a fuller explanation and I suggest that we briefly degroup that amendment, if we reach it today, to provide that explanation for the noble Baroness, so that she has further clarity. I do not think I will provide it for her at this point.

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It is not a matter of looking at whether there might be public interest. This Parliament knows that the public interest is in the lives of people—the heating in their homes, the food they eat, the materials that make the things in which they live, the vehicles in which they travel and the electric cars they hope to buy. All these things come down to commodities, and therefore we need to pay a lot more attention here. I hope that, by the time the Bill finishes its passage, we have made changes.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly to the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, because my noble friend Lady Bowles has set out the position very well.

I am concerned that we see, in parts of this new legislation, a very libertarian view of how financial markets should be structured. Even libertarians will say to me, “Look, it all works in the long run, but in the short run there are an awful lot of victims and collateral damage”. Because of that, we are asking the Government to go back and relook at the changes they are proposing. The developing world, including some of the poorest people, will suffer from the volatility of many commodity prices. Particularly where that volatility is artificially created, it seems to me that we ought to expect the regulators to play a disciplined and effective role.

While I must admit that most of this legislation is beyond my comprehension—the markets are extremely complex—I am rather concerned that regulators, whom the Minister herself has said have great expertise, knowledge and understanding, should not be in a position to apply those to ensure that there is no market abuse. I will leave it at that, because all that has been far better said by others.

My Amendment 27 in this group amends the Minister’s Amendment 26. It is another probing amendment, because I am not quite sure exactly what the Minister’s amendment says. My noble friend Lord Sharkey and I were both very involved in the Financial Services Act 2012, which set in place the framework for regulation of behaviour by central counterparties. That was after the 2007-08 crash, which was, as much as anything, a severe liquidity crisis. The chaotic nature of the derivatives market meant that no particular financial institution knew whether the financial institution with which it would normally do business was about to collapse, because, in turn, it had complex derivative products with yet another financial institution that was about to go under.

I am very supportive of the decision that was made, obviously at a global level, to channel virtually all financial derivatives, particularly the standard ones, through central counterparties. The largest of those central counterparties was of course the London Clearing House. I think we all recognise that, in doing that, a great deal of risk cumulated at the central counterparty. That is mitigated by the central counterparties themselves by requiring collateral.

However, to give the Committee a sense of the size of this market, I was looking at a typical number for outstanding financial derivatives on any one day. It is approximately $600 trillion, so it is vast, and a good part of that is now run through central counterparties. The problem is that there is not enough quality collateral in the whole wide world to meet margin calls from the various central counterparties, even after they have gone through a compression or netting process, which of course was led by London. Part of the reason that London is so dominant in this arena is that it has such a large market share.

The way in which the sort of fiction works—that collateral sits in place to cover risk—is that low-quality collateral can be used in these cases through a mechanism of discounting it for its embedded risk. Frankly, there is a point at which you can discount junk as much as you like but that does not turn it into high quality. It might do so on paper or by calculation, but it does not in reality, so there is always a weakness and high risk at the central counterparties.

In that 2012 legislation, we were attempting to put in place a resolution mechanism for the moment when central counterparties went sour. It is easy to put a resolution mechanism in place when a single member fails, because the other members of the central counterparty bloc are usually in a position and have sufficient financial strength to step in, and there are requirements under that resolution waterfall to be able to do so. But when the problem is at a systemic level, the waterfall does you no good at all. Most of the amendments here are meant to strengthen the waterfall, but the reality is that when there is a systemic problem, the waterfall collapses in a matter of seconds—and the ultimate backstop is, basically, the taxpayer. With the numbers that I am talking about, your Lordships can see that the exposure for the taxpayer is very significant.

All central counterparties across the globe, no matter where they are located and what rules they sit under, tend to have exactly the same membership. So if one CCP goes, you can pretty much count on all the rest of them going. In that environment, I am trying to understand the changes that the Minister is bringing forward under Amendment 26. I had understood that it was the Treasury that gave equivalence status to third-party central counterparties—I could be wrong because I am so out of date—if advised by the relevant regulator, which in this case would be the Bank of England. If I understand Amendment 26 correctly, it effectively extends the equivalence recognition to EU CCPs from one year to three years and six months. That is in primary legislation and we can make the decision whether we think that is appropriate.

I am rather troubled by proposed new paragraph (4), to be inserted by proposed new sub-paragraph (3) in Amendment 26, which says:

“The period determined by the Bank of England in a particular case”


under the rule I just described

“may be varied by the making of a subsequent determination.”

Can the Minister help me understand what on earth that means? Does it mean that equivalence can be extended by a decision of the Bank of England, say from three and a half years to 10 years? Does it mean only that the Bank of England could shorten the period of equivalence recognition and that it is limited by the three years and six months? I can see no way that there is any mechanism at all for scrutiny around this issue, even though it can represent a very serious chain of risk.

I just need some help to try to understand what power is being given to the Bank of England. It is a little like the previous question on the earlier amendment. What exactly is this power? What does it enable the Bank of England to do? What kind of scrutiny is there? Is there a sunset clause to it? How open-ended is this? I am just trying to understand those implications, so I would be very grateful if I could have the Minister’s help in doing that.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

It might be wise for me to write to the noble Baroness to address that specific point. Under the overall framework for the regulators, they need to make their rules in a way that is consistent with international standards, to which the noble Baroness referred. That would be the additional way in which one would have that reassurance, but it is worth writing to set out the point for her with more clarity.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles and Lady Worthington, talked about whether the FCA, in acting to advance its objectives, would have sufficient grounds to intervene in these markets. The Treasury is confident that it would, and an example of humanitarian grounds for intervention was given. We are confident that the FCA could intervene on humanitarian grounds, acting in line with its objectives, but perhaps I will also write to the Committee to expand on that further.

The noble Lord, Lord Sikka, somewhat pre-empted me: I was just about to turn to Amendment 41. I am afraid that the Government will disagree with the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. Arguments were advanced by my noble friend on this point. Amendment 41 would require all listed companies to disclose how much revenue they make from trading commodity derivatives. However, listed companies are already required to publish comprehensive information about their operations and finances as part of their annual reports. The Government view that as sufficient.

It may be worth turning to the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, on government Amendment 28, if the Committee is happy for them to be addressed here. Does the power in Clause 3 allow the Treasury to amend primary legislation to give us or the regulator new powers? The power in Clauses 3 and 4 to modify legislation, including to create new powers for the Treasury or regulators, is limited to retained EU law, as set out in Schedule 1. Clause 3 powers cannot amend primary legislation.

The powers in Clause 4 can be used to move provisions from retained EU law into primary legislation. The power in Amendment 28 applies where the Treasury is making transitional amendments to retained EU law or restating it. It is designed to allow, for example, the Treasury to give itself a power to update a definition or threshold in legislation. This mirrors delegated powers for the European Commission in retained EU law. While it would be possible to deliver the same outcome by reuse of the powers in Clauses 3 and 4, the Government consider it more appropriate to create a specific power to allow for such updates to be made, where they consider it appropriate. When creating such powers, His Majesty’s Treasury will have the ability to specify the procedure for any statutory instruments made using the new power. The Treasury will follow the same approach to determining the appropriate procedure as it has in the Bill. Where the Treasury exercises the power to create further powers, the instrument doing that will be subject to the procedure specified in Clause 3(9), which, in the vast majority of cases, will be the affirmative power.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

The Minister has been very helpful, but I will ask the question that I think the noble Lord, Lord Tyrie, would ask if he were still in his place: is there any kind of sunset clause on this?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

There is no sunset clause on this power, just as there is no sunset clause on the powers in Clauses 3 and 4, so it is consistent with the approach we have taken with those other powers.

I thank the Committee for allowing me to address those points in this group. With that and the further information I shall deliver to the Committee on some of the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, I hope that she will withdraw her Amendment 21 at this stage and will not move her other amendments.

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[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I fear that if we were to follow the amendment from the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, we would indeed permit naked short selling. Like most people, I have no problem with short selling in highly liquid markets.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

I am a little surprised that the noble Baroness is taking my name in vain here. My amendment is not about short selling; it is about listing.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I apologise; it was the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. I have attacked the wrong conspirator, as it were. I say to her that my concern, from listening to various people argue for changes in the rules that govern short selling, is that that is exactly what they have in mind, the argument being that if we allow short selling then illiquid markets will suddenly become much more liquid because many more players will be attracted into that particular end of the market. There is a great deal of risk at play, so I am quite nervous about making that kind of change. We always assume that the investors who would engage in these products would be highly sophisticated and understand fully the risks they are involved in, but the practical reality that we see in everyday life is that many people get involved who, frankly, have insufficient understanding and find themselves very much at risk.

It is for a similar reason that I say to the noble Viscount —I think accurately this time—on ending regulatory criteria for listing, that the listing issue is quite complex. I was one of the people who agreed with the IoD—I do not agree with the IoD all that often—on the changes that the London Stock Exchange made to enable a secondary listing for Aramco. It did not end up with the business, but the IoD was very concerned that the LSE compromised its approach to corporate governance to get that listing, which would obviously have been a highly profitable activity. That issue made the IoD very irate. It described it as

“an opportunistic attempt at boosting short-term primary issuance which ignores the longer-term implications for the overall UK corporate governance regime.”

This is actually quite a contentious area, so removing it completely from the regulatory sphere strikes me as rather dangerous.

I will bring my comments to a halt, except to say to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and to the Government that the noble Lord should not have to fight such a difficult battle to try to deal with such a potential abuse. I wonder whether the Minister might, on a very personal basis, take up the cudgels here, because Ministers sometimes are in a position to get the relevant action that has been sitting many pages back on the back burner. I remember the battles we had to get rid of payday lenders. In the end, the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, working very closely with all parts of the House on a very personal basis, was able to bring in the legislation that brought an end to that kind of abuse of consumers. The Minister has a very good precedent in the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, and his capacity to use financial services legislation to deal with an aberration that puts people at risk.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

I am not persuaded by the amendments in this group, apart from the one from my noble friend Lord Stevenson. Obviously, I shall listen to the debate and check Hansard before we come to Report. My noble friend’s amendment may not be the right way to address this problem, but, in all honesty, it has been five and a half years since this issue was spotted. There has been a perfectly good Law Commission report, as I understand it, which makes a very strong case. It is no good saying that we will cover this elsewhere, or that it has to be integrated. There is a solution to this problem, and it is important that the solution happens in this Bill. I strongly commend to the Minister that she “does a Sassoon” and comes up with an acceptable compromise so that an end is put to what I would call almost an evil practice.

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[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I understand regulators’ desire to have more insight into the risks that critical third parties present to the provision of financial services. The regulators have been fretting about the provision of cloud services for some time—not always with good cause, because cloud providers offer some significant benefits to financial services firms in a range of areas. The PRA and the FCA have already increased their focus on critical third party suppliers by way of operational resilience requirements on regulated firms, and they already have the ability to get information via the regulated firms.

I was not hugely surprised to find a regulatory power grab regarding critical third parties in this Bill, but I was genuinely shocked to find 10 whole pages of legislation giving the regulators huge powers over critical third parties: the power to make rules, a power of direction, information powers, censure and disciplinary powers, and so on. This is typical regulatory gold-plating of the kind that I hoped we had left behind when we exited the EU. The Treasury ought to be on the alert against this kind of thing, rather than being complicit in it.

The regulators will have to exercise real care when they use these new powers. It would be a very bad outcome if some—for example, the cloud providers or the major ICT providers—decided to exit the UK financial services market because of heavy-handed regulation. If that happened it would likely increase the concentration risk within the financial services sector, as well as reducing competition in the provider market.

My Amendment 37 is in fact extremely modest. TheCityUK has called for one of the regulators to be in the lead for any critical third party, so that the likelihood of duplicative requirements and other burdens between the regulators involved would be minimised. TheCityUK is not comforted by the co-ordinating duty in the new Section 312U of FSMA because just about everybody who has been involved in financial services has been on the receiving end of unco-ordinated regulator action, despite the existence of co-ordinating duties already in FSMA. Those duties have not been a resounding success, and I may return to the idea of a lead regulator on Report.

For today, my Amendment 37 would delete subsection (3) of new Section 312U and replace it with a more third-party friendly version. Subsection (3) says that the duty to co-ordinate

“applies only to the extent that compliance with the duty does not impose a burden on the relevant regulators that is disproportionate to the benefits of compliance.”

This is typical of regulation, in particular financial services regulation. It sees things through the prism of the regulators, not the persons impacted by the regulation. My amendment would replace this with a requirement to minimise the burden placed on critical third parties so far as is reasonably practicable.

I do not regard this rebalancing of the new rules as a radical proposition in the context of the radical new powers that are being taken. The impact on third parties really does need to be taken into account, and it is curiously absent from the 10 pages of the Bill dedicated to the new powers over critical third parties. The need for rebalancing of the new regulatory provisions ought to go wider than the duty to co-ordinate, and I should probably have drafted something broader to consider in our Committee today. My purpose is to probe how the Government see the new provisions impacting on third-party suppliers, not just on the regulators, and whether they even acknowledge that they might have created something of a monster in these new rules. I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak only very briefly, because I have a great deal of sympathy with the proposition that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, puts before us. The resistance in the industry to rules is not to the principle of the rules but to the way in which they operate, and the cumbersome methodologies—the dotting of every i three times and crossing of every t four times—that drives people completely insane. It has undermined respect for both the regulator and its effectiveness. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said she had something broader in mind, and she will find amendments coming forward later, particularly in the name of my noble friend Lady Bowles, focusing on the issue of efficiency. I think that is something we would all like to see.

There are those who would like to see less regulation per se, and those like me who are very cautious about having less regulation. Obviously, less regulation may release animal spirits and innovation, as the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, pointed out earlier; in fact, he did not talk about animal spirits, but he talked about innovation. The downside is that light-touch regulation could leave you with a financial crisis, an awful lot of victims and, potentially, an undermined economy. It is very asymmetric. But efficiency ought to be built into the very heart of this, and regulation ought to be designed to put a minimum operational burden on the various parties affected. If we can adopt that somewhere as a principle in the Bill, it would be exceedingly useful.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lady Noakes for her amendment. It is a good opportunity to talk about the Government’s proposals for mitigating the systemic risk posed by critical third parties in the finance sector, such as cloud service providers. The Government agree with the spirit of what my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, have said.

The critical third parties regime has been designed with the aim of minimising the burden placed on these parties, while mitigating the systemic risks that could be posed by the use of these services. Rather than bringing, for example, a whole cloud services provider into the financial regulators’ remit, the regime instead gives the regulators powers over only the services that a critical third party provides to the financial services sector. I believe that that approach contrasts with the EU approach known as DORA, which I thought was the name of my parents’ dog. DORA bears similarities to the UK’s approach, but I am told that it is less proportionate than our regime, which targets only the services provided to the finance sector and not whole firms.

Proportionality and resource-effectiveness are therefore built into the design of the regime. I draw all noble Lords’ attention to the obligations that the regulators already operate under, including those resulting from FSMA, and the Bank of England Act 1998. In addition to public law obligations to act reasonably and proportionally, the regulators must also have regard to their regulatory principles. These include the principle that burdens or restrictions imposed on a person should be proportionate to their expected benefits. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, indicated, we will come back to this question of proportionality and effectiveness as we go through our debates in Committee.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 30th January 2023 Grand Committee

The third amendment in this group creates an offence when any person, whether authorised or not, by their actions or omissions suggests to a reasonable person that their activities in whole or in part are authorised when that it not the case. There is already an offence in FSMA for making out that you are regulated when you are not, but my amendment is broader because it covers omissions, and omissions are where frequently people are misled. This amendment overlaps with the second amendment in this group, Amendment 39, but it also covers unregulated persons. These differences may seem like splitting hairs compared with the existing FSMA provisions, but they are the differences that fraudsters exploit. Some may think that a little implied enhancement of status is no big deal. Unfortunately, it is, and it must be stopped. I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Bowles’ speech was so powerful that I saw a lot of heads nod, but perhaps that has discouraged other noble Lords from standing up to speak on this occasion.

I am not going to attempt to repeat an excellent speech which made the points which such clarity. I just want to underscore two things. Whenever I have conversations with the FCA and whenever you read its articles, it prays in aid the complexity of the regulatory perimeter so that on so many occasions it is hard to know exactly where it is and how it is applied. However, when you look at abusers and scammers, they have absolutely worked out where the regulatory perimeter stands and know exactly what scope they have, and they make sure they use every scrap and every inch of that space which is provided to them. That is addressed by these amendments.

The second issue that I want to underscore was raised by my noble friend. It is that, culturally, the FCA seems to be very timid about pushing to the limit of the perimeter the regulatory powers it already has. It is so because it is very afraid of stepping over the boundary at any point. These amendments provide not only much more clarity but some backbone for the FCA to take a far more positive stance. It is quite shocking to most people that the key financial regulator can be absolutely aware that abuse is taking place, that mis-selling is taking place, but feels that it is unable to do or say anything because there is a regulatory perimeter after which the issue is caveat emptor and those who are defrauded can turn only to the enforcement agencies, which relies on finding a local police force that has the resources and capacity to pick up the issue. We know that with the Lloyds Reading case small businesses that were very badly abused went to police force after police force and were turned down until they went to Thames Valley Police, which had more resources, and the police and crime commissioner, Anthony Stansfield, whom I utterly praise in this issue, decided to take on the case—a very rare instance. They got no help from the National Crime Agency or the Serious Fraud Office because they considered that the fraud that everyone recognised was taking place was too small fry to occupy them. Frankly, it is a shocking situation to be in. Many people have said that this must be remedied. I congratulate my noble friend on bringing forward an amendment that aptly provides that remedy. I very much hope that the Government will take it up.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I am impressed by the arguments made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles and Lady Kramer. To me, the fundamental issue seems to be the asymmetry in both power and information between those who have been defrauded and the fraudsters. These amendments are a useful vehicle to try to adjust that asymmetry, at least in part. I look forward to the Minister’s response and hope that she says something positive.

[The Parliamentary Secretary HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, tackling fraud requires a unified and co-ordinated response from government, law enforcement and the private sector to better protect the public and businesses from fraud, reduce the impact of fraud on victims and increase the disruption to and prosecution of fraudsters.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, explained, Amendment 38 targets fraudsters; the Government strongly agree with the spirit of it. However, strong punishments for those carrying out these acts already exist under the Fraud Act; also, the police and the National Crime Agency already have the powers to investigate fraud, with the FCA providing strong support. That is why we are ensuring that the police have appropriate resources to apply the existing powers to identify and bring the most harmful offenders to justice, including through severe penalties for those who target some of the most vulnerable in society. The Home Office is investing £400 million in tackling economic crime over the spending review period, including £100 million dedicated to fraud.

As the noble Baroness noted, although FSMA does not provide the FCA with an express power to prosecute fraud, it is able to prosecute fraud if it furthers its statutory objectives. The FCA continues to pursue firms and individuals involved in fraud; most of this work is against unauthorised activity operating beyond the perimeter, which is where the FCA sees most scam activity occurring. As at the end of September 2022, the FCA had 49 open investigations, with 217 individuals or entities under investigation.

In its 2022 strategy, the FCA outlined and emphasised its broad existing remit in relation to reducing and preventing financial crime, including fraud; it also recognised the important role that it plays in tackling this issue.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I am sorry but can I ask the Minister a specific question? The Blackmore Bond case was a massive abuse in the mini-bonds scandal when 2,000 people lose something like £46 million. Other than dealing with a small entity that was doing some illegal promotion, the FCA declared that it could not act because the case was beyond the regulatory perimeter. I am therefore rather befuddled by the Minister saying that the FCA acts beyond its perimeter when it is associated with its principles; the principle of integrity obviously applies.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

In dealing with the noble Baroness’s points, I should perhaps write to her on the particular case to which she refers. However, as I understand it, the FCA has a remit to tackle fraud, for example where unauthorised firms are purporting to undertake authorised activity—a point that we may come on to in our debates on later amendments.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

May I just have clarity? The Minister said, “Only where an unregulated firm undertakes an authorised activity”. Blackmore Bond was selling mini-bonds, which was not a regulated activity at that time. Is the Minister explaining to us that the FCA and regulator do not or cannot act in that area and that she is satisfied with that situation?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

No, I am saying that I gave an example of where the FCA could take action for activity beyond the regulated perimeter, but I will write to the noble Baroness on the specifics of the Blackmore Bond case as an example of the question that she asked about this interaction and limitation on where the FCA can act.

Further action was taken to avoid a repeat of cases such as Blackmore Bond and London Capital and Finance. In November 2019, the FCA banned the promotion to ordinary retail investors of high-risk speculative illiquid securities, which includes the types of bonds sold by Blackmore and LCF. The Government have also set out our intention to include non-transferable securities, including mini-bonds, within the scope of the prospectus regime. This would mean that issuers of mini-bonds would be required to offer their securities via a platform when making offers over a certain threshold, which would ensure appropriate due diligence and disclosure and be regulated by the FCA, providing stronger protection for investors. However, I know that that does not address the noble Baroness’s particular point, on which I will write.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I too support both amendments in this group. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Holmes on his Amendment 219, and the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, on Amendment 40 and the way in which he explained it. I urge my noble friend the Minister to take seriously the comments that have been made and the reference to the Treasury Select Committee, which recommended just this kind of change.

I would like to understand from my noble friend: if the Government do not agree with the Treasury Select Committee, why? How do they believe that SMEs are protected against the kinds of scandals and bad behaviour that have clearly been rife within the sector over a number of years? Does my noble friend seriously believe that small and medium-sized enterprises are equipped enough to stand up against the information and resources available to the financial services industry to avoid the kind of problems that we have seen in the past?

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, the last group of amendments and this one are not identical and cover different aspects of abuse by financial institutions. Were the Government to accept them, together, or to draft their own versions, that would completely change the playing field. Small businesses would be in a position whereby they could breathe easily and make business decisions, and not worry that, embedded in whatever product they were purchasing—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes) (Con)]

I hate to interrupt the noble Baroness, but a Division has been called in the Chamber. The Grand Committee stands adjourned until 5.20 pm.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, in light of all the pressures we have—the speeches were so brilliant—I will not try to add to them, other than to say that I very much support the amendments in this group.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

I will make one brief observation and declare my interest as chairman of the Financial Markets Law Committee. It seems to me that the real problem, which both amendments rightly seek to address, is to give SMEs an effective remedy. The courts system—for various reasons—and the costs that lawyers charge make it almost impossible for SMEs to take on the banks. Therefore, there seems a good deal of force in the arguments that have been put forward. I would be grateful if the Minister were able to tell us what the attitude of the regulators, particularly the FCA, would be to extending the position in this way. It is very important for the Committee to know what they think of this amendment. Really, the object of it is to cure a deficiency in the way in which our legal system functions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I do not have the figure to hand. I note that it started in 2021, so is a relatively new organisation. Perhaps I could also—

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Perhaps the Minister would confirm that the only cases in which the BBRS will intervene is where the bank complained against is Barclays, Danske, HSBC, Lloyds, NatWest, Santander or Virgin Money and that any institution outside that group—and there is a great range of new banks, challenger banks and others—is not included in its activities? Is that correct?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I note that it is a voluntary body. I do not have the list of those who have signed up to it to hand. If it differs from those outlined by the noble Baroness, I will write to the Committee, but she may well have listed those who have signed up to it. I note, however, that the combination of that service, and the scale of those involved in it, with the ability to go to the Financial Ombudsman Service means that research suggests that more than 99% of UK businesses can access independent dispute resolution. We should look at the size of the customer base as well as the number of organisations signed up to such dispute resolution mechanisms. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, on the number of cases taken by the organisation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

In relation to Amendment 40, there are benefits—which we have heard about—and costs to any activity being brought within the regulatory perimeter. I think that point is fairly well accepted. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked me for further details on that, and I will write to the Committee.

On my noble friend’s Amendment 219, there are costs related to bringing disputes through the courts system as opposed to other dispute resolution mechanisms. There can also be benefits to that mechanism, but it is not enormously contentious to say that there are both costs and benefits to these solutions, which need to be weighed up when we consider them.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I will add one more piece to the response from the Minister—one more request. I just want to double-check what she said. She said that small businesses could go to the FOS and that they have to employ fewer than 50 people. The definition of a small business seems to encompass something much larger than that. Can she help us understand what happens to the businesses that are still considered small but have more than 50 employees? I would imagine that they are pretty easy targets. As I say, one of the things that is always noticeable is that those who decide to exploit are very clear about where the perimeters are and who they can freely approach, so they get away with it.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

As I hope I was setting out for the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, there are different definitions of businesses that can have different protections and routes of redress within a system of small business lending. The system that we have is aimed to be proportionate, focusing on the smallest SMEs which are at the most risk. On the difference between the voluntary measures that are in place and bringing it within the regulatory perimeter, we are not saying that those are entirely equivalent protections but that they are proportionate protections to the risks faced by those firms. I set out different thresholds in my answer in relation to both those businesses that are protected under the Consumer Credit Act, which are sole traders, loans under £25,000 and a few others there, and businesses that are able to access either the FOS or the Business Banking Resolution Service. There are other thresholds too. Therefore I appreciate the point that that is different from the definition of a SME that the noble Lord asked about. The system is designed to be proportionate to the size of the SME and the protections it affords to them as regards business lending.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will briefly express support for this amendment, which has already been so powerfully argued for. I would have signed it had I caught up with the legislative deluge.

I want to make two additional points. First, the Pensions Regulator’s most recent survey of defined contribution schemes found that more than 80% did not allocate any time or resources to managing climate risk. It would be interesting if we were to see the way in which fund managers were voting, not only to have that recorded, but I would assume that they would have to have some kind of thought behind it to explain what was recorded. The transparency might force some more thinking to happen, which would clearly be a good idea.

I also want to ask a question of the proposers of this amendment because I was slightly puzzled by the information on request element of the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, noted that US regulators forced this to be published openly as a matter of course. It seems that that would be the logical thing, that this should be available not only to clients but to anyone who might like to make an assessment of how companies and asset fund managers are behaving and why they are behaving in that way. Perhaps in my classic Green position, I wonder whether we should not go further, and, rather than saying “to clients on request”, say that this should be freely published and available to all.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, with three outstanding speeches, I have very little to add other than to say that I very much support this. However, I have a question for the Minister. I was just looking up the definition of a fiduciary duty, which is when someone

“has undertaken to act for or on behalf of another in a particular matter in circumstances which give rise to a relationship of trust and confidence.”

We know that many people feel that there is an implied and inherent fiduciary duty between the person who puts their money into a pension fund and those who act to invest it—I see that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is shaking her head. I know that in various pieces of legislation there has been an attempt to clarify that. However, surely at the very least there is a responsibility to transparency. This seems to me a very mild but important principle to establish. I suspect the Minister would be very concerned if she were to put her money into an entity and did not know, within reasonable boundaries, how it was being invested and used and what impact it had. Surely, these amendments are minor and mild but important.

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Sheehan, Lady Wheatcroft, Lady Hayman, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle and Lady Kramer, for raising voter reporting.

The Government recognise that the ability of investors to exercise their voting rights is an important issue, which is why they are taking steps to address barriers in this area. The Financial Reporting Council’s world-leading UK Stewardship Code 2020 already requires detailed and annually assessed reporting from its voluntary signatories on voting disclosure, and the recent stewardship guidance for pension scheme trustees from the Department for Work and Pensions, which included substantial guidance on the exercise of voting rights, came into effect in October 2022.

However, the Government recognise that there is still more work to do. The DWP’s guidance includes sustainability-related issues, and its stewardship guidance focuses on areas where existing policies and reporting appear to be weakest: stewardship and, to a lesser extent, consideration of financially material ESG factors and non-financial factors. Stewardship encompasses a range of activities, and this guidance focuses specifically on voting and engagement; it is about creating long-term, sustainable value for savers and includes recognition of environmental and social governance factors, which is encompassed in the DWP’s guidance.

Furthermore, the DWP has already made a public commitment to review voting disclosure requirements in the response to the consultation on Climate and Investment Reporting: Setting Expectations and Empowering Savers. This review will be conducted jointly with other government departments, including the Treasury, and regulators. This will ensure consistency across the investment chain. The review will begin in late 2023, which will give the Pensions Regulator time to gather evidence on how the DWP’s existing guidance has influenced standards of voting disclosure.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Northbrook (Con)]

My Lords, I listened with interest to my noble friend Lady Noakes moving her amendment. Clearly, consumer credit is at a record level, due, I am sure, to a long period of low interest rates. I just find, probably deliberately, that the amendment is a little vague. Like the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, I like the idea of focusing on specific issues such as buy now, pay later. Perhaps more power should be given to the FCA to look at institutions that are offering huge rates of interest on loans.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I take a slightly different view on the two amendments in this group.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, on her amendment that I am entirely sympathetic to the idea that we need an up-to-date Consumer Credit Act sooner rather than later. However, I am concerned about the absence of parliamentary engagement in the process. To understand how controversial this is, we just have to look back at some of our discussions on amendments earlier today in which Ministers prayed in aid the Consumer Credit Act for taking no action to protect, for example, small businesses from abuse by a great variety of lenders. It is quite a controversial Act, in many ways, and it is one where, when the Government enter into a review, there tends to be quite a bit of industry capture, as we see in virtually all consultations. Essentially, Parliament tends to be the body that brings forward the consumer voice, so the absence of parliamentary engagement in the process as envisaged in the noble Baroness’s amendment troubles me hugely.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, that we are very supportive of his amendment on buy now, pay later. I am disturbed by the growth of the industry, particularly at a time of such huge economic pressure. I think something like 17 million people in the UK have used buy now, pay later, with two in five young people using it regularly. It is particularly around young people that there is the greatest concern because they lack life experience to recognise the consequences of their purchasing habits and find it particularly tempting to exceed the budget that they should observe because buy now, pay later makes it sound so utterly painless. In discussing this issue, many people have looked at what happens to people when repayment eventually becomes due: individuals find themselves is very deep trouble indeed. That is one of the reasons why I am supportive of this amendment.

I have to say that I get angry with many of the companies that offer this because credit is never free. Someone is picking up the time value of money; in other words, the cost of the financing, the cost that is embedded in the reality that payment comes later. That presumably encompasses all the people who pay on time. I am curious to know whether we have any kind of assessment of how much more people who pay on time are paying as they pick up the cost of the credit that is extended to others. I think there might be some backlash to buy now, pay later, if people were conscious of what is added to their bills as a consequence. I admit that I am one of those stuffy people—I am sure we are laughed at—who pay on time rather than trying to use some mechanism to provide credit, so I admit to a personal interest but, in the end, young people may find themselves trapped.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this subject, but I very much agree with everything that has been said, especially by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, just now, about the lost opportunity if we do not take climate change and embedding it in financial services seriously. ESG investing is the big growth area at the moment, and what message are we giving if we say, “Well, we’re not really that interested in the ‘E’”? I am not sure about the “S” and the “G” either. We will potentially lose out.

It is not as if this will be an environmental tax on every business, or as if it has to be woven into every last little bit of financial services, like some chain round their neck. I spend some time looking at the general duties of the regulators, and, if I were to say anything about the positioning of this, I would say that it is not necessarily high enough up in the hierarchy because it is entirely forgettable within the layering that we have. I object to the notion that we are still in an era where we can do damage and compensate; you cannot compensate for a ruined planet. That is very much old thinking. It is almost centuries old in my book.

The FCA’s general duties state:

“In discharging its general functions, the FCA must, so far as is reasonably possible, act in a way which … is compatible with its strategic objective and … advances one or more of its operational objectives.”


What we are talking about here is a secondary operational objective, but the whole thing could be forgotten. If you ask me, it should be in the strategic objective, which is the only thing that cannot be rubbed out, because that is where we are at. We can go through this lovely list. Integrity gets rubbed out when it comes to SMEs—we have been through that debate—so climate things will be rubbed out if you want to be one of the rough-and-tumble financial firms that wants to deal with gas and oil exploration. Money is needed for that to work it all through and make sure that there are no stranded assets.

What is the big problem with what I would call a measly secondary objective? I understand the competitiveness and growth objective, which seems to be liberally sprinkled throughout to try to give it some kind of priority, but you have to balance that with sustainability in its broadest sense. All these things are about balance. We cannot have a Climate Change Act that says we will do things and then just ignore it in our biggest industry. It is the biggest case out there and we need something on it here. I will look at this again on Report and the Minister jolly well knows where I will put it.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, this has been such an enjoyable debate, although I fear that the Government may not be listening as much as they should. When I first looked at this Bill, I was absolutely shocked that the word “sustainable” was not in front of “economic growth”. That seemed quite extraordinary in the era in which we live. It is a very old-fashioned, limited kind of approach that does not recognise the significant intertwining between finance, economic growth, the future of the planet and meeting our targets on climate change and protecting nature. It is extraordinary that it was removed.

I want to pick up the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, in particular. I disagree with her purpose but in one thing she is exactly right: as this Bill is currently written, that international competitiveness objective will largely drive us to try to compete with Asian financial centres that, frankly, could not give a single hoot about climate change and nature. That is why, frankly, the way in which the Bill is currently structured is so weak. As my noble friend Lady Bowles, who knows about this even more than I do, said, we have seen how the FCA deals with secondary operating objectives—I forget the exact phrase—in the past. Occasionally, it might pay attention to them if it suits it but they are certainly not embedded in its culture and do not light the core of its thinking or drive most of the decisions it makes.

I very much support the amendments led by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and joined by others, as well as Amendment 69 in the name of my noble friend Lady Sheehan. However, I will talk in particular to two of the other amendments: first, that from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, which asks, as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, said, that we get this green taxonomy in our sustainable disclosure requirements fast because we desperately need that structure and strategic update.

This is in the context that the European Union already has its sustainable financial disclosure regulations; noble Lords may notice that the initials are exactly the same, bar one letter, which is part of my general concern in all this. Financial investors based in the UK are now using that as their template. As far as they are concerned, having to run one regime if they fall under EU regulations and a different one if they fall under UK regulations would be a nightmare. They are now wondering whether they are being pushed to choose between the two.

In its consultation on sustainable disclosure requirements, the FCA very helpfully provides a chart of how you can cope if you are trying to be under what is contemplated for the UK regime while also dealing with the EU regime. I honestly think that that is in there because the FCA thought that it would be helpful, but I recommend that somebody go and look at it, because it is a nightmare. You can see that it will be incredibly difficult and very costly for companies that work in both arenas to deal with these different alignments.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st February 2023 Grand Committee

Amendments 157 and 158 also have merit and would help to ensure that the quality and accuracy of the regulators’ accounts of consultation on rules are not unduly diminished by GDPR. I look forward to other noble Lords’ contributions.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I take serious note of the comments of the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, because they reflect my fear that the amendments in the names of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and the first amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, could easily be interpreted as pressure to raise the international competitiveness objective and the growth objective very close, if not equal to the financial stability objective. Frankly, that should be a major concern to us all. I do not want to put the regulators on the back foot when they prioritise financial stability.

In many ways, that is how it was in the 1980s and the 1990s, and we saw how the industry responded to that set of priorities and arrangements. The industry was blithe about risk as long as it generated short-term profit. In discussing the new international competitiveness and economic growth objectives, I have heard from many in the industry that they want them not only to be given greater weight but even to be primary objectives and to stand entirely equal with financial stability. That is such dangerous territory.

At Second Reading, I quoted Paul Tucker, a former deputy governor of the Bank of England, who lived through all that turmoil of 2007-08 and after, who urged Parliament not to give the regulators—particularly the PRA—an international competitiveness objective, praying in aid former governors of the Bank of England, who knew the very soul of the industry and knew that that would be dangerous and unadvisable. Those were not his exact words—his were more excoriating.

Risk in the financial sector is asymmetric, as we saw in 2007. The profits of risky behaviour go to the leading figures in the industry, and they typically keep those proceeds, despite the failure of the sector and the organisation and, in many cases, despite the fact that if you were to go back and unpick it, one could say that such proceeds were based on false profits.

The taxpayer then had to come in and rescue the sector with £137 billion in 2007-09. Much of that has been recouped, but what has not, even to this day—and which we and the country live with—is the damage to the wider economy. We had more than a decade of austerity, and it is a price we are still paying to this day. At our peril do we put ourselves in a position where there is increased likelihood of a repeat of that cycle.

I remember from his memoirs that Alistair Darling was shocked that banking chiefs uniformly showed no gratitude for the massive rescue package that kept their businesses afloat after the 2007-08 crisis. I sat on the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, but have yet to find one to take any significant responsibility, not only for their institution but for the broader sector.

On competitiveness, let me quote from the report of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, because this was central to its findings of why the industry had become so out of control and behaved as it did:

“There is nothing inherently optimal about an international level playing field in regulation. There may be significant benefits to the UK as a financial centre from demonstrating that it can establish and adhere to standards significantly above the … minimum. A stable legal and regulatory environment, supporting a more secure financial system, is likely to attract new business.”


That was the consequence of nearly two years of taking evidence.

I turn to other amendments. Those in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, in this group focus the need for mutual and co-operative financial services. I wholly support that. I very much support the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on the establishment of regional banks. Local services focused on geography or a specific group are often treated as an afterthought or a Cinderella part of the sector today in the UK, but they can be the best way to deliver opportunity to ordinary people, including those presently excluded, and to help small businesses, especially in difficult times. We shall return to some of these issues in later amendments that we will discuss today.

I also support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, which, in essence, are on efficiency. They seem to mesh very well with the amendments of my noble friend Lady Bowles, which are about transparency and mechanisms to evaluate the performance of regulators.

I return to my additional theme: I introduced a discussion on financial stability, almost out of shock that we now have such an intense focus on enhancing international competitiveness and economic growth—as if, somehow, financial stability were not the absolutely fundamental delivery that we expect from our regulators. Without that, frankly, everything else is worth nothing.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, I would just like to ask her a question about her very interesting speech. This also allows me to say that, in Amendment 45, the first “PRA” should read “FCA”—a good spot by the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. But I do not quite understand how financial stability is threatened by a regulator being responsive, consistent and proportional. Could the noble Baroness explain that again?

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

The noble Earl may find that this is already a requirement of the regulator, but this is not about that. If the amendment were taken in the way that I suspect the noble Earl reads it, I might feel reasonably comfortable with it. However, as we listened to the discussion, we saw where this was going. The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, captured that: the industry is looking at these kinds of amendments as a mechanism by which it can find leverage to enhance the status of the international competitiveness and economic growth objectives. If we could find a balance, in asking for the kind of language that the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, is after, but making sure that that does not become weaponised and potentially raises those objectives to an equal status to financial stability, I would feel much more comforted.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, we are on day three of six. I cannot possibly envisage the seventh day, so I will make short speeches. Our amendments in this group are 118 and 119. Amendment 118 would give the FCA a duty to report on mutual and co-operative business models, covering how it considers the specific needs of credit unions, building societies, mutual banks, co-operative banks, regional banks, mutual insurers and co-operative insurers. Amendment 119 would do the same for the PRA.

Following Second Reading, I read the Minister’s letter on this topic with interest and was pleased with her assurances on the matter. However, a letter has little substance; virtually nobody knows about it, to start with. Therefore, as a minimum, I hope the Minister will repeat the assurances in that letter about mutuals, et cetera, and get them on the record in Hansard.

I hope the Minister will assure me that the department takes a keen interest in the growth of the mutual and co-operative sector. The UK has a smaller industry than some international economies, particularly in Europe. I would be interested to know what the direction of travel is in government on this. If we are committed to consumer choice and a diverse, dynamic financial services mix, a strong mutuals and co-operatives sector is surely an important part of it.

There are many amendments in this group and, in general, I like the direction they take. I hope the Government will look at the thrust of these amendments and, as the debate on the Bill develops, try to come back with proposals that take the best of them.

I am very interested in the introduction of the word “proportionality”. My career has been in aviation, in railways, in nuclear and, indeed, even in the military. Proportionality, done well, is undoubtedly the optimal way of introducing and managing regulation. Of course, it is a dynamic concept. As things change, if you really do believe in proportionality, your interpretation of proportionality has to change with the changing facts.

The problem with this is that it needs very able and mature regulators. That is why so much of safety regulation and, in a sense, financial regulation is prescriptive. One knows how to interpret prescriptive regulation: you do what it says and, when you cannot agree, you go to a court. I hope that we persist with proportionality, but I feel that we will need a very special regulator to do it. If that can be achieved, it will give a dynamism to the regulation in this Bill.

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My third example is MREL, which is, as all noble Lords will be aware, the minimum requirement for own funds and eligible liabilities. This was invented in the EU and we were required to implement it from 2016. I do not think it is controversial to say that the EU’s approach was over the top. In effect, the EU imposed on smaller banks the kind of loss-absorbing capital that the systemic banks comply with, so a system that was designed for systemic bank failure—

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

If I could just interrupt, the noble Baroness might want to go back and take a look at the MREL rules. It is in the UK that smaller banks got loaded up with the MREL requirement. I do not have the exact numbers in front of me but I could easily get them for the noble Baroness. She will discover that within the EU, small banks do not have to deal with the MREL issue. This was the particular interpretation by the UK PRA and has long been a battle that I have every time I meet PRA officials.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that. Of course, I got carried away by my usual desire to knock the EU and lost sight of the essential principle, which is that the PRA is in fact applying the MREL rules disproportionately. I think that on that, the noble Baroness and I will agree.

So the PRA is applying a system that is designed for systemic bank failure to smaller banks, which present no systemic risk at all. While some modifications were made in 2021, medium-sized banks still end up having to issue MREL-compliant capital, which adds to their cost of capital, and this in turn reduces their capacity to lend. A number of mid-sized banks told the Treasury late last year that this reduction in the capacity to lend could amount to £62 billion over the next five years. Everyone loses—except the larger banks, who see smaller competitors facing considerable competition barriers. I believe that the regulators need to focus more on proportionality, which is the aim of my amendment.

Earlier I said that I was sceptical about the regulatory principles in FSMA, but they exist and we need to make sure that they are comprehensive. My Amendment 77A introduces an additional regulatory principle of being evidence-based. We have inherited all those EU rules, which were drawn up in the context of the EU’s well-known precautionary approach to regulation. I can see how easy it is to slip into the habit of regulating in the UK in the same way, just because we had to regulate that way in the past.

On our first day in Committee, we had a short debate on short selling. There is no evidence that short selling is or has been a problem in the UK, and yet the Government and the FCA are lining up to carry on regulating it. We need a shift of mindset in financial regulation in the UK, because the regulators should regulate only where the evidence points to the need for regulation, and we should not be regulating on the basis of hypothesis or speculation. That may well mean stepping back from regulating in areas where there is a possibility of a problem but no evidence that problems actually exist.

If we have a nimble system with agile and responsive regulators—I accept that that might be a rather big assumption—we should have no problem in stepping back, because we can act when a problem emerges. I certainly do not recommend or seek the widespread dumbing down of our regulation, because good regulation is part of the strength of our financial services sector. However, I believe that we are failing to take advantage of our Brexit freedoms to liberate our financial services businesses where there is no evidence that it is not safe to do so. That is what lies behind my seeking to add an additional regulatory principle.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords—sorry.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Thank you. We are desperately trying to work out what we do to remain winding speakers but, thanks to the flexibility, that is allowed in Committee. It disappears at Report, but it has been very useful.

I wanted to make a few comments because I want to ensure that we focus strongly on the issues raised by my noble friend Lady Bowles: looking at the international competitiveness objective through the lens of efficiency of the regulator. When I talk to the industry, its beef is typically not with the regulation but with the way it is applied. It is the endless paperwork, delays, time-wasting, and everything else. The amendments that she has tabled get us laser-focused on that and tell the regulator, “This is unacceptable. It may mean that you need more resources, but then open your mouths and ask for them, because I think you would find that Parliament would row in behind you to ensure that you have that capacity to deliver that effective, efficient regulation.”

I was slightly taken aback by the example of a one-week approval authorisation in the Bahamas only because I am very conscious that the 2007-08 crash was finally tipped over the edge by AIG, the major US insurance company, saved at the last minute by a bailout of $150 billion. It has rectified itself today. I would hope that our regulators would take more than four or five days to look at authorisation for company with the capacity to bring down a very large part of the world’s economy. I just turned pale for a moment. I hope that we will not take that as a continuing example.

I also do not see the regulators as typically capricious—inefficient, but not really capricious. I am therefore concerned about the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, to the extent that they would remove agility. All of us who work in some way or other in relation to the financial services industry recognise that we are in a period of the most extraordinary change. Technology and globalisation are driving it, and all kinds of innovation are out there. We need a regulator that can cope with the pace of change that is taking place and does not come late to the table.

When I first got involved in politics, fintech was new. I remember asking every member of the fintech industry to meet me, and there were 12 people around the table. Now the leading figures associated with fintech would not fit in the Royal Albert Hall. That is brilliant—but I remember the difficulty then in trying to explain to the regulators that we needed a completely different regulatory environment, if fintech was going to develop. It wanted regulation. Being without regulation led the industry to fear that rogue players would suddenly enter that would disgrace the industry and cause a regulator to come on to its lawn with tanks blazing. There was a real desire to get appropriate and sensible regulation in place, but it had to be different and innovative and had to recognise the features of the industry.

When it comes to the word “predicted”, it seems to me that for a court it would be very hard to go through that kind of analysis, and to understand the business issues and the differences and risks in various industries, to understand whether or not predictability applied. When I looked at this issue, I thought, “My goodness, I bet this was drafted by lawyers because it looks rather like a lawyers’ charter.” I do not think that providing additional business to some of the law firms in the City is one of the purposes of the Bill. I have some real concerns, and they centre very much on that area. I hope we will think this through extremely carefully. Anyway, I consider that I have wound up, and I will sit.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, we have no amendments in this group. I have listened to this interesting debate. It comes back to the classic dilemma in all parts of life, from family dilemmas right through to how you manage an industry, and it comes right to this proportionality issue. It is very easy to create rules so simple that you cannot see what they are trying to achieve. It is very idealistic to try to create some ideas that the industry should contain. I look forward to listening to the Minister’s reply, but I have enormous sympathy with her, and I hope she might perhaps give some thought to whether we might try to develop some mechanism between now and Report to see if we can create common ground on this extraordinarily important issue.

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In time, we will oppose this requirement in the Bill.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I start by speaking to my own two amendments in this group and will then move on to winding for the Liberal Democrats.

In a sense it is quite pertinent that I follow the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, because, as members of this Committee will know, I have some real concerns about the competitiveness objective and its effect and implications. It comes from people who are very much founded on the experience of the financial crash of 2007-08 and a fear at the time that lessons would be learned very briefly but the industry would very quickly push back as it is now, hoping that the crisis has been forgotten. I notice that all the speakers who are in favour of the competitiveness agenda seem very careful not to go back to that time, and they describe in some way why this is inherently different from then. If that cannot be done, or if they have all forgotten exactly what the experience was in that period, we are moving into difficult territory.

My amendments are quite specific and are very definitely probing—I hope that the Minister will disabuse me. When talking with a leading player in the industry, who was encouraging me to support the competitiveness objective, I took the government and regulators’ line: “It is a secondary objective—financial stability is clearly the priority.” I was told, “No, you haven’t read the Bill. You need to look at the section that refers to mutual recognition agreements. You have to read the two together. When you look at mutual recognition agreements, that gives us the leverage, combined with the competitiveness objective, to force the regulator to always adopt for the UK whatever is the standard that is embedded in that mutual recognition agreement.”

I am extremely troubled by that strategy, but from reading the language I can see where that thinking comes from. The attractiveness of the mutual recognition agreement to this individual was that it was an arrangement—in effect a treaty or an agreement—that was not negotiated by regulators. They might have a discussion with regulators and there might be input from regulators, but ultimately it was negotiated by businesspeople, and therefore that would be the guiding principle, not concerns about financial stability—those are not the concern of a trade negotiator—but arrangements, while measures within a trade negotiation contain a lot of compromises and trade-offs. This disturbs me hugely, and I would like the Minister to explain how those concepts and clauses work together. I was talking with someone who was using their imagination, but there was a lawyer present who was confirming what was being said, so I am really quite concerned about that interaction. We need to understand how that works as we proceed with this Bill.

I very strongly support my noble friend Lady Bowles. I am not going to repeat the arguments that she made, which were really important, but I want to pick up on the issue of relevant international standards. Like others, I am troubled by the idea that we might have slavish adherence to a set of rules that are made elsewhere, but on the other hand I am trying to trade off in my mind what we do if we do not have international standards in significant areas of financial services. We may say, as the Americans often do, that we know better than everybody else, that the way we structure our industry means that international standards do not really apply to us and that their capital requirement standards veer quite considerably away from the standards that were agreed at Basel and were largely adopted within the EU. But how do we turn to other places and say that they need to use international standards or that they should not fall below them if we say that that is allowed to us? I am trying to work my way through that thinking process because we live in a very globalised world.

The financial crash of 2007-08, which essentially exposed huge weakness, abuse and mismanagement in the UK, was triggered by events in the United States—the way in which subprime mortgages there had been packaged up and sold as collateralised debt obligations. As I mentioned earlier, subprime mortgages brought down the largest insurance company in the world, AIG, which was rescued by the American Government who, when Lehman Brothers began to collapse, said “Wait a minute. Enough. Suddenly we’ll have to rescue everybody if we’re not careful. We draw the line here.” The consequences reeled not so much through the United States but through the UK, exposing all our various weaknesses.

With this globalised world, what happens in one country, what is done by one regulator, impacts others. How do we manage this unless we have some sort of standing for international standards? I am not arguing against the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes; I am just saying that we somehow need to think this through, how it works, how we scrutinise it and how we consider it. It seems to me that it ought to be on only an exceptional basis that we decide that we do not apply those standards in the UK, but we need a mechanism for that and it seems to me that this should be largely something that Parliament determines, because it has significant consequences and would fit with much of the parliamentary accountability agenda that we have talked of today.

I want to pick up on the sustainability issue. Forgive me if I have the wrong person, because I had done that before, but I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, who mentioned sustainability and said, “How vague can you get?” As far as I remember, we have used sustainability in a lot of prior legislation, so I think there is a body of understanding. Some of the energy legislation that we dealt with certainly had the word “sustainability” in it, so there is a body of definition that sits behind that. I am one of those who would very much like to see sustainability attached to the words “economic growth”. I am not so concerned by the secondary economic growth objective, but I want growth to be sustainable. For me, that encompasses sustainability in every sense, both environmental—as it is often used—and economic.

As I say, I remain concerned about the competitiveness objective. We need to be very clear about its implications. If there are other levers that I have missed in the loan agreement that provide it in a non-obvious way with additional power and strength and the ability to get court rulings in its favour, I hope the Minister will explain them to us because I would find that very necessary for our future discussion.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not wholly associate myself or my party with my noble friend Lord Sikka’s comprehensive description of the finance industry, but I go back to one important area. I mentioned earlier that my previous career had a lot to do with safety. One of the things that it brought out was that people readily forget the catastrophic because the catastrophic occurs so rarely that attention drifts away and they get on with the day to day.

We broadly support the growth and competitiveness concept, although its impact will be modest. It would be a miracle if it added 1% per annum to the growth of the UK. If we read Alistair Darling’s autobiography—and yes, I am aware of the Mandy Rice-Davies test, “He would say that, wouldn’t he?” but it reads pretty convincingly—we see just how close we came to a totally catastrophic situation. It was only saved by a number of individuals, including Alistair and Gordon Brown, taking the very brave decision to do what had never been done before, which was essentially to throw the whole economy at a guarantee of the banking system. That is a pretty dodgy thing to do and, frankly, if you look at the timeline, it got very close to a catastrophic situation.

When one is looking at catastrophic risk—a low probability, perhaps, but catastrophic—you have constantly to bear that in mind. I do not think that the average practitioner in the finance industry works like that; I feel that day to day they are making trades and so forth. The sense of the primary objective is that that should be the salient thought behind all their decision-making: “We must not create another catastrophic situation.” To be fair to the Government, over the past decade or so quite a lot of sensible legislation has been introduced to protect ourselves from catastrophic risk. The Bank of England has a department working away at the regulation of financial institutions to make sure that they are orderly, safe and so on.

I have forgotten what the words are, but the concepts of stability, security and probity must be there in the primary objective and must be well-defined and clearly prime—the top objective. After that, competitiveness, growth and so on would be great.

Our Amendment 65 was a probing amendment and it has worked very well. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, assured me—perhaps the Minister will use similar words—that there is no question about the primacy of the objectives, that it is set in other rules and that if I looked at all the rules together, I would not be worried about it. I think that is basically what she said, and I hope it is right, because it is absolutely right that we bear in mind protection from catastrophic risk.

I note the assurances that the Minister gave in her letter following Second Reading, but I am still not clear about the specific mechanism whereby the primary objectives are expressly meant to take precedence in FSMA. To me, it appears that they are indeed split up, but there is nothing to define what it means to be primary. I may be wrong in that concern, and I am here to be persuaded that I am wrong. The more effort that is put into persuading me, the more will go on the record and form the environment in which financial services are delivered. I feel concerned that there is nothing in legislation, in the regulators’ rulebook or elsewhere to guarantee the primacy of the FCA’s and the PRA’s most important objectives. However, as I said, that is an open question, and this debate has been good.

Regarding the international dimension, I see the concerns being expressed about giving it too much primacy—although I do not want to use that word, because it has the wrong effect. My memory is useless but, about two years ago, we had what I will roughly call the Basel III Covid legislation. Many of us were there to debate it. If I remember rightly, it took out the EU law and made space for the regulators to create the situation we are talking about now. My recollection is that aligning with Basel III and the FSB—or whatever it is called—became an objective within that. I see the Minister is nodding, so my memory has some fragments of it.

Once again, it is clearly a good idea to be that bit looser if we are to be innovative. The probing worked brilliantly, as I far as I am concerned. The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, quite openly said that competitiveness and growth should be equal to the regulators’ concern about stability and safety. Arguably, that is a properly viewed position, but it is not my position. Failure must be avoided—not quite at all costs but, wherever there is a debate between bigger risk and modest profit, the bigger risk should be avoided.

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[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Would an MRA covering these issues be enabled only if an equivalence decision had already been provided by the Treasury? In other words, are these only for countries whose financial services industries are already covered by equivalence decisions or could they be in agreements where that standard has not been met in the eyes of the Treasury?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I suggest that I triple-check that for the noble Baroness and write to her. The provision to enable the implementation of MRAs included in the Bill does not enable the Government to change the clear hierarchy of the regulators’ objectives, only to specify the areas in which regulators should make rules to give effect to an MRA. If, after I have written to the noble Baroness, she wants to discuss the Government’s interpretation of international standards, or if my noble friend wants to discuss her points further, I will happily meet them if that would be helpful.

I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, can withdraw her amendment and that other noble Lords will not move theirs when they are reached. The Government, of course, support Clause 24 standing part of the Bill.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 6th February 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as London’s Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience, as risks associated with access to cash were noted as a risk to financial inclusion in the London City Resilience Strategy published in 2020.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for allowing me to add my name to their excellent Amendment 117 on financial inclusion. I will speak particularly on digital inclusion. The other signatories have already outlined in much better words than I could why this amendment is required. This amendment would ensure that the heart of this legislation takes account of the needs of the most vulnerable and that we have the opportunity to mitigate the risk that a significant minority of the population may be unwittingly left behind or excluded from crucial financial services. This amendment would be an important addition to the legislation. I agree with my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe that this is not party political. It is a really sensible and pragmatic measure which should afford significant protection.

On financial inclusion, I ask noble Lords to note specific issues of digital inclusion. This relates to financial inclusion as, without access to a smartphone or computer, it is almost impossible to carry out online banking or transfer money to a family member or a business.

I apologise for using a string of statistics, but beneath them there is a significant minority of the population whose stories and suffering because of financial exclusion often get missed. These people may be unable to access basic banking services online, relying heavily on cash or even cheques, and may struggle to pay for very basic things we all take for granted—for instance, automated parking.

Latest figures from the ONS estimated that, in January to February 2020, 96% of households in Great Britain had internet access. This increased from 93% the year before and 57% in 2006, when comparable records began. Although this number is increasing, and statistically it looks as if there is not a huge number of people without internet access, in the same period 76% of adults were using online banking. This leaves a significant minority who still do not. Estimates suggest that over 7 million adults in the UK—around 14%—could be classed as potentially financially excluded, with around 5.8 million having no record of an open or closed bank account. There are well over 600,000 people who could be classed as credit invisible, with the issues that causes for affordable credit.

Digital exclusion’s effects fall disproportionately, and research by the Centre for Social Justice has found that digital exclusion is significantly higher among those on the lowest incomes. It has a disproportionate impact on those who can least afford it. A fifth of adults with a household income below £15,000 are digitally excluded, compared to just 1% of those with an income of £50,000 or more. In turn, this adds to the poverty premium they already pay, as they cannot access the best prices or deals. This poverty premium, which has already been mentioned in this debate, includes borrowing and other financial services, so the proposed duty to be placed on the FCA would ensure that it, as well as the Government and the banking sector, can act to mitigate the risks posed by increasing digitalisation of the sector.

I note that technology often moves faster than we can imagine, Covid changed behaviours that now cannot be unchanged, and any duties imposed on the FCA in relation to financial exclusion will need to assume that the discussion about cash versus card that we are currently having will move to card versus phone, as well as include other technological approaches. Ensuring that the FCA has oversight over that would provide additional protection for the most vulnerable in our society, and I hope the Minister sees the merit of safeguarding which this amendment would provide and agree to include it in the Bill.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I shall combine speaking as a winding speaker with addressing the amendment that sits in my name. I added my name to the two amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, Amendments 55 and 241. Like him, I am very conscious of many of the recent scandals we have seen—he mentioned London Capital & Finance, but there is also Blackmore Bond and mini-bonds, to mention just two of the most recent. They were fuelled by ordinary investors looking for improved returns. I would hope that with easier access to regulated markets, which typically come with information and analysis by independent entities such as the rating agencies, an investor would be far less likely to fall into unscrupulous hands. That is a consequence that neither the regulator nor the Government have been fully aware of. They are always surprised when an unscrupulous product appears, and they should not, given the general track record.

I also join the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, in their amendments to insert at least “have regard” for financial inclusion and for proper reporting on financial inclusion. I also support Amendment 67A, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, to turn that into an objective.

My biggest gripe with the FCA on the financial inclusion agenda is that it is passive. If a new product or organisation were to come forward serving part or all of that community, it would of course appropriately regulate it. The problem is that it does not use its incredibly powerful and influential role as a regulator to spearhead the actual change—to pick up the words of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. It does not, for example, ask the competition to come up with a product or even look at mechanisms such as bank in a box, which is very popular across the globe. That makes it very easy for new entities to come to market, because the whole core regulatory piece comes off the shelf. That changes the dynamic dramatically. It does not take the initiative and, until it does, I can see that no one else will.

All of that in a sense leads me to my Amendment 228. Others have talked about the intractable problem of financial inclusion, and I suspect that many in this Room, like me, have been to round table after round table, meeting after meeting, conference after conference, with banks, credit unions, mutuals, fintechs and civil society groups to hear proposals for cracking the financial inclusion problem. Year after year, it is the same conversation, with relatively little headway. Others may correct me, but the number I have is that we still have 1.2 million people without a bank or credit union account, and in modern society that means that you simply cannot function.

I have huge respect for credit unions; I am delighted that there are amendments to support them and mutuals in the Bill. However, only 1.4 million people in the UK actually use them. That is a fraction of those who could benefit. Other forms of community development financial institutions are scattered, tend to be small and have limited scope. Local and community banks, as well as the old savings and loans, have largely been absorbed by the high street banks. In turn, as others have said, they have rapidly closed branches and anyway rely on a centralised system of decision-making that does little for local businesses or circumstances; we saw that graphically after the 2007 crash. There is a regional mutual bank movement—the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, addressed this in our debate on a previous set of amendments—that is trying to build, but the lack of capital is a major hurdle. Again, my noble friend Lady Tyler referred to the banking hub scheme driven by the access to cash task force, but it is growing exceedingly slowly.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

In government, the Financial Inclusion Policy Forum is jointly chaired by my honourable friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury and a Minister from the DWP; I will confirm who to noble Lords, because I would not want to get it wrong. That is the forum by which the Government drive the work and bring other actors into this space to co-ordinate on issues.

We recognise financial exclusion and the need to promote financial inclusion as an important area of policy work. We recognise some of the gaps raised today. I would point noble Lords towards progress that is being made in some areas.

We have also heard today about a changing landscape and how we will need to continue our work to keep up with it. As use of cash changes, we are legislating to protect access to cash, but we also need to consider how we can promote digital inclusion, so that, as services move online, people can access them in the same way as they have been able to previously.

The point of difference is not whether there is a problem but whether it is for the Government to lead on co-ordinating the response to that programme, with an important role for the regulators, or whether it is the regulators that should have more emphasis on driving this work.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Can I put in a real request to the Minister? I understand that she is keeping to her brief, but could she get back to the department and tell it that it is time to do something about this, not just to have endless meetings, gatherings, reports, reviews or pieces of minor tinkering at the corners about it? This needs a driven central initiative. If she can answer me at all, can she take that on and go back to the department to tell it that it is time to do, not just to talk?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will absolutely take that back to the department, but I disagree with the noble Baroness that no action is happening on this issue. We talked about access to cash; that is being legislated for in the Bill. On access to low-cost finance, I have talked about the money that the Government have put in to pilot a programme of interest-free finance for those who are most vulnerable. We have talked about access to bank branches. I acknowledge that the initiatives on banking hubs have not been as fast as people would want, but they put forward a solution to an issue that we face. We agree that it is a common issue. I have given examples of what we are doing on digital inclusion. In a later group, we will discuss the importance of mental health. We have put in place the Breathing Space scheme for those who are in problem debt and have mental health problems.

Yes, there is a lot more action to take. I recognise the problem and I will take the noble Baroness’s words back to the department, but we are legislating on some measures in the Bill. I have set out very specific measures that we are taking in other areas. It does not mean that the job is done, but it does mean that action is happening.

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[Lord Northbrook (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a consultant to an FCA-regulated investment management firm. Like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and others I find it disappointing that the Bill fails to address the growing problem of financial fraud.

There was an interesting article in the Times on Saturday. It said that

“according to the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau, in the last 13 months there has been a reported loss of £4.3 billion from fraud and cybercrime. That is an eyewatering amount of money going into the pockets of criminals … Criminals are getting away scot-free but what is even more worrying is that they know that it is unlikely that any law enforcement are looking for them. This is not because the police are not interested, but simple maths. According to the Social Market Foundation, in 2021 in England and Wales just 1,753 officers and staff were dedicated to economic crimes such as fraud. That equates to just 0.8 per cent of the total workforce and yet”—

as other noble Lords have said—

“fraud accounts for 40 per cent of all reported crime. In many cases … the victims were simply given a crime reference number by the police and told there was nothing more they could do. It remained up to them to try to get their money back from their bank.

If one is determined to find the culprits, an alphabet soup of crime agencies such as the NCA, NECC and NCSC, all with different remits and jurisdictions, awaits. Most people give up and the scammers get to keep their cash.


Unless we increase the number of officers and staff that investigate fraud to reflect the amount of fraud reported we will continue to lose billions to criminals.”


Clause 62 addresses the issue only partly. It enhances protections for victims of authorised push payment fraud, which, according to the shadow Treasury Minister in the other place, quoting UK Finance figures, reached an all-time high of £1.3 billion in 2021. In the other place, the Government promised a review without giving a timescale, but more immediate action is needed.

The Bill ignores the fact that digitally savvy criminals are increasingly exploiting a range of financial institutions, such as payment systems operators, electronic money institutions and crypto asset firms, to scam the public. As my noble friend Lord Naseby mentioned, UK Finance pointed out that, in 2021, 44% of fraud was authorised push payments, about 40% was payment card fraud and 15% was remote banking.

As several noble Lords have already stated, last November, our House of Lords Fraud Act 2006 and Digital Fraud Committee released a report stating that the Government should introduce a new corporate criminal offence to ensure that big tech platforms and telecom companies tackle financial crimes. Under the Online Safety Bill, which is currently going through its stages, online platforms will face a duty of care to protect their users from fraud, but that Bill does not cover telecoms and other related sectors. It is a very good step but more needs to be done, including requiring tech companies to publish data on the nature and volume of scams on their platforms.

Of the amendments in this group, I am very much in favour of the all-encompassing Amendment 209 from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, particularly as it includes, under the proposed new subsections (3)(d) and (e),

“telecommunications stakeholders, and … technology-based communication platforms”.

I have been disappointed by the Government’s reaction so far. Although Mr Griffith said in the other place that the Government

“are dedicated to protecting the public from that devastating and sadly growing crime”,

he also said that the Government want

“to be right rather than quick”.—[Official Report, Commons, 7/12/22; cols. 446-47.]

Well, one can be right and quick. As with several other points on this Bill, such as credit card monitoring, the Government do not seem to be moving very fast at all. If we believe the Sunday press, something may be happening, but I await the Minister’s response with interest.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister will have picked up the mood of the Committee and I hope she takes it into consideration when she looks at and decides on her remarks. The concern that has been expressed from all sides of the Committee on fraud and the absence of action on it is loud and strong.

I support all the amendments in this group, including those from my noble friend Lady Bowles, and the noble Lords, Lord Hunt, Lord Davies and Lord Tunnicliffe. I particularly recommend my noble friend Lady Bowles’s Amendment 214, which goes after the enablers and facilitators with a “failure to prevent” clause. This group is continuously overlooked and is absolutely pivotal. Action in this area could be really effective and leverage some significant change.

My Amendment 217, in a small way, tries to counter one of the reasons why financial fraud flourishes: the lack of resources for investigation and enforcement against the perpetrators. The noble Lord, Lord Sikka, has addressed some of this.

I, too, am a great fan of Anthony Stansfeld and his personal courage in deciding, as the then police and crime commissioner of Thames Valley Police, to pursue the HBOS Reading fraud case when others had turned it away. That fraud amounted to £800 million and six people—I thought that it was five but the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, said six—went to prison. However, the fine that was levied on Lloyds, as HBOS’s parent, was £45 million. As the noble Lord said, not a single penny of that went back to Thames Valley Police even though the pursuit of the case cost that force £7 million. The consequence of that was heard loud and clear by police forces across the country. They expected that, because of its success, Thames Valley would end up getting reimbursed, and saw clearly when it did not. Since then, no police force has taken on a major case of financial fraud; that dates back to 1977. Frankly, it is a failure of duty. I hope that the Government will finally understand the consequences of that kind of funding decision.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I have listened very carefully to the debate, and I see the point that noble Lords are making. This operates in other areas of government—there is the Proceeds of Crime Act and how that operates—but I slightly counter leaning too heavily into the fact that the police would have no incentive to investigate serious organised crime unless the costs of the investigation and the prosecution are reimbursed to them. Their fundamental role is to investigate and prosecute crime. I understand that there is a complex landscape when it comes to investigating and prosecuting fraud, and that is something that the Government have tried to tackle with the establishment of the economic crime command at the NCA—but it is ongoing work for us. The challenge before me today is that the funding that comes from these fines currently goes to the consolidated fund and is spent elsewhere on public services, so any change of this nature would have implications that go—

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

If the Minister is able to persuade the Treasury or the Government to look again at this issue, can she make the point that, if you can get much more activity from the police forces on pursuing fraud, you end up with much more coming in in fines? To look at the US example, it makes far more money out of financial crime because it prosecutes financial crime far more extensively.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, this group contains Amendment 120, signed by me, my noble friend Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Morse. Our amendment would facilitate further parliamentary and public

“scrutiny of the work of the FCA to protect consumers by requiring the Financial Services Consumer Panel to lay an annual report before Parliament outlining”

the extent to which the FCA is successfully fulfilling

“its statutory duty to protect consumers.”

We have included the provision that the Consumer Panel must comment on the “adequacy and appropriateness” of its use of its powers; the measures it

“has taken to protect vulnerable consumers, including pensioners, people with disabilities, and people receiving forms of income support”;

and its “receptiveness to the recommendations” of the panel. We need a mechanism to encourage the FCA to exercise its regulatory duties more readily and consistently.

This is all in the context of very serious FCA failings. I am thinking particularly of the British Steel pension scheme scandal to which the FCA was found to be “slow to respond” at every turn, according to the Public Accounts Committee. If the Government are inclined to reject this amendment, I would appreciate further work in this space in the interests of all those who have fallen foul of FCA failures. I urge the Minister to look seriously at this amendment, given its cross-party support across the House and in the other place.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I am speaking a little earlier than I usually do on my amendments in case others want to join in on the Equitable Life issue. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, for signing my first amendment; it is hard to tell what happened with the second. I hope she signed both of them. Yes? Fantastic.

I want quickly to follow up on the comments from my noble friend Lord Sharkey. Perhaps the Minister can clarify this for me. She will remember that the PPI scandal was widely spread across the industry. It was not unique to one or two companies, therefore no company that invested in that mis-selling was behaving as an outlier. Again, when interest rate caps were inappropriately sold to small businesses, it was not the action of one or two particular banks. It was industry-wide, therefore nobody was the outlier. Can she explain to me what this new consumer duty will contribute to enabling the FCA to act on these kinds of abuses? She will note that the FCA did not act until there was a major scandal and a huge amount of public pressure and pressure in Parliament because, when it looked at it, it could see no basis for action. Perhaps she might tell us how the consumer duty would have worked in those two key cases. I am sure that the Government must have tested those cases in coming to their decision to support the consumer duty, so I think she will be able to give us clarification on that.

Both of the amendments in my name arise out of the Equitable Life policyholder cases. I thank the Equitable Members Action Group, which has been frankly magnificent in support of the victims of the collapse of Equitable Life. It has fought for them in the past and continues to fight for justice.

Amendment 225 is a direct plea for compensation. When Equitable Life collapsed, 1 million people lost a significant part of their retirement savings. In 2008, the Parliamentary Ombudsman concluded that the victims’ losses were directly attributable to a decade of serious, serial regulatory maladministration.

The ombudsman made 10 determinations of maladmin-istration: one against the DTI; four against the Government Actuary’s Department; and five against the FSA, which

“resulted in the true financial position of the Society being concealed and misrepresented”.

I cannot think it extraordinary that, in a situation such as that, one would have expected the loss to the victims to have been remedied in full. In recommending redress, the ombudsman said that she would

“normally expect that, where appropriate, such a loss should be remedied in full”

and she called for the Government to

“fund a compensation scheme to put those people who have suffered a relative loss back into the position that they would have been in had maladministration not occurred.”

The Government later accepted that the amount of compensation to achieve that would have amounted to £4.5 billion but only £1.5 billion in compensation was announced by George Osborne. Some 37,000 with-profits annuitants were fully compensated but a further 10,000 received only £5,000—or £10,000 if they were on pension credit—because they took their annuities before September 1992. The vast majority of the victims—895,000 people who were not with-profits annuitants—received only 22.4% of their acknowledged losses. My amendment would carry out the recommendation of the Parliamentary Ombudsman and put everyone back into the position that they would have been in had maladministration not occurred.

This leads to my second amendment, Amendment 226, which would establish in law a requirement that, when the ombudsman finds maladministration by the regulators or government departments, all consumers affected

“are put back into the position they would have been in had that maladministration not occurred.”

Just imagine how we would react if a bank decided that, instead of paying the full compensation it owed, it would pay just a portion of it. I cannot see why the Government should be treated differently from an entity such as a bank. We would expect compensation to be paid in full.

How can we ask people to turn with confidence to the Parliamentary Ombudsman when recommendations are watered down after the fact? How we ask people to save when a rogue society—I think that describes Equitable Life quite well—cheats them? The Government make appalling mistakes to the level of maladministration —that is a very high bar; it is not a low bar—and then will not make it right. Many of the victims are now in their eighties and nineties so time is running out for justice; indeed, many have died without justice. That is the reason behind my two amendments. I very much hope that there is support for that perspective; indeed, I hope that we will finally see support from government.

In making a brief comment on the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Sharkey, on a return to a proper duty of care—it is one of the most important amendments that we are considering today —I want to stress, in this context, the private right of action. It seems to me that, without a proper duty of care or private right of action, we can never make banking institutions or other regulated financial services sector institutions live up to their full responsibilities to consumers.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I support all the amendments in this group. I dipped down the order a little because I wanted to hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, would say on Equitable Life. I have nothing to add. I was an Equitable Life policyholder twice over and no one came out of that whole sorry saga well. I do not think that all the necessary lessons have been learned, but that is perhaps for another debate.

I will address my Amendment 77. I am sure all noble Lords accept the principle that financial regulation should pay regard to the particular problems faced by people who have problems with their mental health. The issue is not about the principle but about whether it requires or deserves a place in Section 1C of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. I think it does, which is why I start by re-emphasising something. Many noble Lords might have heard this part of this speech before, because it has arisen in debates on the Online Safety Bill and on the last group—although the personnel attending this part of the Committee has changed somewhat, so I am not that embarrassed at repeating myself.

There are strong links between having a mental health problem and experiencing worse financial outcomes. Either a financial problem leads to poor mental health or pre-existing poor mental health leads to financial problems. Either way, mental health difficulties all too frequently make it harder to earn money, manage spending and get a fair deal on products and services. Life is likely to cost more precisely when we have less money available to spend.

Facing financial difficulties should not result in needing mental health treatment, but too often these things come hand in hand. Financial difficulties do not just cause stress and anxiety; this is often made worse by the follow-up actions—collections activity and having to go without essentials. It is not just an occasional problem. Here I must pay tribute again to the work of the Money and Mental Health Policy Institute, which in a series of reports has amply illustrated the scale of the problem and the relationship between good mental health and well-regulated financial markets.

Common symptoms of mental health problems, such as low motivation, unreliable memory, limited concentration and reduced planning and problem-solving abilities, are just the things that make managing money significantly harder. These symptoms can also make it more difficult to interact with financial services firms. For example, people with mental health problems are three and a half times more likely to be in problem debt than those without. Just under half of adults in problem debt also have a mental health problem. In nationally representative polling from November last year, the institute found that around half of those who were behind on multiple bills have had suicidal thoughts as a result of the increasing cost of living. More than 100,000 people in England attempt suicide while in problem debt.

A problem we face is that communicating with financial services providers can be particularly challenging for people with mental health problems. Three-quarters of people with mental health problems found at least one communication channel difficult to navigate, with four in 10 saying they found it difficult or distressing to make phone calls, for example. This has to be taken into account in FCA guidance. Part of the problem is that providers simply do not have the information about their customers to enable them to make better decisions. That is a crucial issue that will have to be addressed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, let me start by dealing directly with Amendment 76, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and spoken to by many other members of the Committee.

I assure noble Lords that, in coming to this debate, I took the time to remind myself of our debate on the then Financial Services Bill in 2021; it is either an advantage or disadvantage, depending on your perspective, that I participated at the time. It is worth going through what that Bill, now the Financial Services Act 2021, required. It required the FCA to consult on whether it should make rules requiring regulated financial services providers to owe a duty of care to consumers. It also set out that the consultation must include

“whether the FCA should make other provision in general rules about the level of care that must be provided to consumers by authorised persons, either instead of or in addition to a duty of care”.

The then Bill further set out that the consultation must be carried out by the end of 2021 and any new rules introduced, if considered appropriate, before 1 August 2022. The FCA publicly consulted on its consumer duty in May 2021 and again in December 2021, and issued its final consumer duty policy statement in July 2022. In its consultation, the FCA noted that its proposals met the requirements in the Financial Services Act 2021.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I think the Minister said that the legislation, as it finally went through, gave the FCA the option of either a duty of care or something else. Did that imply that it could be much weaker than a duty of care—and did anybody signing up to it understand that?—or was there a sense that it might be done in a different way but would be equally as strong and effective as a duty of care?

[Lord Flight (Con)]

The other fundamental point is that it is not the law; it is a sort of quasi-law that does not have the same power as law.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord gave other examples of the concept in the past, but it is important to root it in this particular context. Perhaps I can write to the Committee to expand on that point.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Can I ask the Minister to follow up seriously on this? The reasonable expectation point matters so much. If it is a case only of outcomes, but that is then qualified by reasonable expectations, the reasonable expectations provide a complete out for PPI, interest rate swaps or virtually anything else that we see. The core concept of the consumer duty is that somebody has to be behaving outside the norm within the industry. The problem is that the norm within the industry was abusive.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The points that I gave in reply to the noble Baroness’s specific question on PPI and interest rate hedging products were in the context of the consumer duty as written, with the reasonable expectations provision in there. However, of course I take seriously the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and I will write to the Committee to further expand on that.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st March 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Kramer]

216: After Clause 71, insert the following new Clause—
“Limitation on the powers of the PRA
The PRA may not accept an application from any insurance undertaking, reinsurance undertaking or third-country insurance undertaking for the application of a matching adjustment to a risk-free interest rate term structure for a portfolio of assets with a rating of less than BBB by Standard and Poors Global Ratings or its equivalent.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to prevent a matching adjustment being applied to a portfolio of high-risk and/or illiquid assets.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I start by thanking your Lordships for your patience in putting up with me being gone over the past few weeks following surgery. Noble Lords from all sides of the House have been so kind; I have appreciated it very much. It is lovely to be back in this company today. Special thanks go to my colleagues who have carried the burden that I should have been here to carry.

In a way, it is almost ironic that the three amendments in this group are all in my name. Amendment 216 deals with insurance and matching adjustments; Amendment 241C deals with the ring-fencing brought in following the 2008 financial crash; and Amendment 241D deals with the senior managers and certification regime, which is also a feature of the remedies proposed after the financial crash. When I tabled these amendments, a number of people pointed out to me that they did not seem particularly pertinent to the time—what a difference two weeks make. We have had three mid-sized banks fail in the United States and HSBC has had to step in and take over Silicon Valley Bank’s UK arm. Of course, we have also had the debacle of Credit Suisse, now part of UBS.

All that underpins the consistent jeopardy and risk that exists in the financial services industry and, to my mind, underlines the importance of having proper regulatory mechanisms in place to remove that risk in the first place, deter risky behaviour and provide a resolution mechanism for when things go wrong, as they always will. I regard the three amendments in my name in this group as rather crucial.

Earlier in Committee, we discussed the concern that the new secondary objective of international competitiveness could compromise the primary objective of financial stability. However, in many ways, that was an abstract discussion. These amendments in these three crucial areas of the financial services sector—all are areas where the Government have clearly signalled both their intention to allow, indeed incentivise, a significant increase in risk and their determination to use the law to prevent regulators limiting that risk—provide us with something much closer to real-life examples.

I start with Amendment 216, which addresses the insurance industry. Of course, this also encompasses many people’s pensions; in a sense, that was clarified in the Budget by the Chancellor, who talked about, in essence, opening up defined benefit pension plans to holding illiquid high-risk assets, in the same way as he anticipates Solvency UK opening up insurance companies to holding a far greater portfolio of illiquid high-risk assets. Under the EU regime, Solvency II, insurance companies are required to build a capital buffer based on the risks in their investments—their asset portfolio. The provision is designed to provide a safeguard if an insurance company fails, protecting both policyholders and the taxpayer. Solvency II allows an insurer to reduce its buffer where the insurance company is holding long-term assets that match the cash flows of its life and annuity insurance and its reinsurance obligations. That relief is called the matching adjustment. It allows adjustment to the discount rate that the firm is required to use to value its cash flows in order to determine the size of the buffer.

With Brexit, Solvency II is being replaced by Solvency UK. No one, including me, denies that Solvency II is probably overly restrictive and requires a degree of reform. I have not objected that Solvency UK is reducing the level of capital—the sort of raw capital buffer—by 65% for life insurers and 35% for general insurers. But the Government are now choosing to go much further. At present, the matching adjustment, which, as I said, has the effect of reducing the buffer even further, applies only to long-term assets held by the insurance company that qualify as investment grade. The change now proposed allows long-term, high-risk, illiquid, sub-investment grade assets—subprime is another word that is often used—to get the benefit of the matching adjustment. There is nothing that the regulator can do about it.

Why would the Government take such a risk? I think the answer is sheer desperation. They are hoping that the insurance companies and the defined benefit pension funds, to which we now know that this will extend, if they do not need to hold much of a buffer, will invest much more in the scale-up of innovative businesses, because scale-up money is hard to find in the UK. Unfortunately, scale-up is the phase at which many companies fail. The standard rule of thumb is that 40% of companies scaling up fail.

The Government are also hoping that the money will go into infrastructure. I should explain that many infrastructure projects are investment grade. TfL bonds, for example, are investment grade, as are the bonds for the M6 toll road; they qualify for the matching adjustment. But many infrastructure projects are high-risk and the bonds they issue are very illiquid. Just look at the pattern for most major infrastructure projects, and small ones as well. There have been delays and overruns in Crossrail, HS2 and pretty much every nuclear power project anywhere in the world. The worst part with infrastructure is that you rarely know that it is in trouble until it is very close to its official completion date. The matching adjustment would apply a far more extensive range of sub-investment grade investments. I know from talking to many companies that they see this as their way to get back into subprime mortgages and subprime property arrangements.

I am very old-fashioned. I believe that the primary purpose of an insurance company is to pay its policyholders on time and in full, and the primary purpose of a defined benefit plan is to pay its pensioners on time and in full. As I said at Second Reading, many people point out that these are pools of money and that the equivalent pension funds in Canada invest heavily in global infrastructure. I point out yet again that, if anyone reads the comments of the rating agencies on those Canadian pension funds, they will become very aware that the Canadian Government are regarded as a backstop should those funds collapse.

That is very different from the situation that we have in the UK, unless the Minister is about to tell me that the UK taxpayer is now willing to become a backstop for pension funds and insurance companies in the UK. The only example that I know about is one that we discussed earlier—Equitable Life. We know that nearly a million policyholders lost more than three-quarters of their investments when Equitable Life failed and that the Government did not bring them back to full recovery, even though the financial ombudsman found serial maladministration by both the Treasury and the regulator. I would very much like to know from the Minister, as we look at Solvency UK, which is enabled by the Bill, whether the Government now propose to give an equivalent backstop to that provided by the Canadian Government.

My amendment basically says that:

“The PRA may not accept an application from any insurance undertaking”—


I will not give you the rest of the details—

“of a matching adjustment to a risk-free interest rate term structure for a portfolio of assets with a rating of less than BBB by Standard and Poors … or its equivalent.”

This is my attempt to stop that reduction in the capital buffer for illiquid, high-risk investments.

I will try to be briefer in dealing with the other two amendments in this group. I shall take Amendments 241C and 241D together. These amendments sprang from the Chancellor’s speech on the Edinburgh reforms. I have referenced before my concerns, which are shared by many who, like me, sat on the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, that we are seeing the rollback of the safeguards that followed our commission’s report Changing Banking for Good. Let me quote from it:

“An important lesson of history is that bankers, regulators and politicians alike fail to learn the lessons of history … measures that are implemented while memories are fresh will be at risk of being weakened once the economic outlook improves, memories fade, and new, innovative and lucrative approaches to global finance emerge.”


That is exactly what we are seeing today, and the past two weeks have illustrated it in spades. The failure of three significant mid-sized banks in the United States was enabled by the rollback of regulation, a rollback that had been sought by the siren voices of the industry. Those same siren voices are currently extremely influential in the Treasury, and I am hoping that we will hear from the Minister that she will go back and look at the decisions to weaken that regulation in the light of the reality that we have seen over the past two weeks and the experience in the United States. Many of these regimes, particularly the senior managers regime, are now to be carried over into the shadow banking world. I am sure that is a good thing, but it is very concerning if those projects are watered down before they are carried over.

I am very concerned about the watering down of ring-fencing. Today, I asked some questions in the Economic Affairs Committee, and it is clear that the Chancellor intends to make changes to the ring-fencing regime. I accept that there are times when one could claim that ring-fencing has been overzealous with small and medium-sized banks and there are some arguments for the need to change MREL, but it is shocking to see that the Government are backing the recommendation of the Ring-fencing and Proprietary Trading Independent Review that if a bank is deemed “resolvable” its ring-fencing features can be removed.

The proposition behind ring-fencing was that retail banking is an entirely different animal from the casino banking of investment banking. It is essentially in many ways a utility, and it needs to be kept safe and separated by the virtues of the ring-fence. On the commission we also saw constant cross-contamination—in other words, risks being taken within the retail bank because of the impact in the universal banking model of their investment banking colleagues. Things such as PPI and various other forms of general abuse of customers clearly sprang from the internal pressures that were created by the overall culture of the combined firm. We could also see that many of the risks that the investment bankers tended to take were fuelled by their access to retail bank accounts that paid no or very little interest and were protected by insurance and which almost, in a sense, provided a honeypot that incentivised the taking of undue risks and played a very significant role in the kind of failures that led to the crash.

To quote Paul Volcker,

“it is the damage that it does to the culture of the whole institution … Trading operations and impersonal proprietary trading operations are simply different from a continual banking relationship.”

In other words—of which there were many—the linkage between retail banking and investment banking contributes fundamentally to all kinds of abuse of customers and small businesses, from PPI, the asset stripping of RBS GRG and the mis-selling of interest rate swaps. It also lay behind the complete collapse in credit standards and the short-term funding strategies that sank HBOS. Ring-fencing is a vital tool to provide for financial stability. With the plans to remove the cap on bankers’ bonuses, which the Government and industry treat as one of their highest priorities, it is even more important that this protection stays in place. My Amendment 241C would prevent any such destruction of the ring-fence without a decision by Parliament in primary legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

The legislation establishing the SMCR is contained within FSMA; amending that already requires primary legislation. However, Amendment 241D would also bind the hands of the regulators, restricting their ability to amend their respective regulatory handbooks. The Changing Banking for Good report was crucial. It paved the way for this important regime but regulation must be able to respond to changing circumstances. The proposed amendments would make the regime less flexible and leave the regulators less able to respond to emerging issues or risks.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I thank everyone who has spoken. When I originally drafted these amendments, they were genuinely probing amendments. I felt that I had stumbled on some issues that, if I was correct, would surely be of such significance that they would have been brought before the House and widely discussed. They changed two of the absolute pillars of our financial regulatory regime: ring-fencing and the senior managers regime. It is evident to me that this is a relatively new topic for most noble Lords here, who are the core of those in this House who engage on these issues. I am therefore very troubled that this has not been part of a broad, in-depth discussion between the Government and Parliament.

I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. If we had a working accountability system, there would be a mechanism to help deal with all this, but we do not have one. Frankly, I do not want to wait until we do, unless we agree something on that in this Bill, because these fundamental changes have such a possibility of putting our financial stability in jeopardy that we cannot simply sit back and treat them as if they are fairly minor adjustments. They are fundamental to changing the guard-rails that have protected us for the past several years.

I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. Stress testing is not a litmus test; it is simply a tool to try to expand one’s thinking and to try to identify potential possibilities. The Government have treated it as if it was some kind of litmus test: if it comes up red or blue, or whatever else it is, you have passed and everything is fine. That is not what it is about—in fact that is an abuse of the whole concept of stress testing.

I am extremely worried about the changes to Solvency II as it moves to become Solvency UK. I should say to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, that I do not have a quibble with the regulator—the regulator has been shut out of this process. This is a government decision that the matching adjustment will be allowed to apply to illiquid high-risk investments because those are the kind that the Government wish to see increased in our economy. I am happy to see them too but, frankly, I would like somebody in the financial capital market who understands the risk and is willing to take the risks to put money in, whether it is scale-up or infrastructure. The idea that this will now become the norm for pension funds, where basically the policyholders will have absolutely no say and I suspect very little understanding of the level of jeopardy in the fund to which they are contributing on a regular basis, bothers me hugely.

I will be very glad if someone else can come up with some mechanisms. The mechanisms that I used here of parliamentary accountability have been my attempt to deal with what seemed like a problem that was not being discussed. However, the excellent speeches that we have heard today, and indeed the Minister’s reply—it did not suggest that we have been exaggerating the situation, but confirmed the problems—mean that we will have to try to find some mechanism, and quickly, to deal with this range of issues. The last two weeks have made it clear that it is complacency to think that we have in place the kind of structure that genuinely protects us from financial risk, and complacency is exceedingly dangerous. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 216 withdrawn.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 23rd March 2023 Grand Committee

My noble friend Lady Noakes asked about consultation. The Government expect that there will be a combination of formal consultation, including on draft statutory instruments, and informal engagement in cases where there is a material impact or policy change, such as where activities that are currently taking place in the UK would no longer be subject to a broadly equivalent level of regulation. The Government’s approach to future statutory instruments will be informed by these consultations and by the work of parliamentary committees that relate to these areas of regulation.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Could I ask a clarification of the Minister—I know that I have not participated? Has she just confirmed that in the Government’s view statutory instruments will indeed be making policy change? That would be important for us to understand. I believe that is what she has just said, but I thought I should confirm it.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I can only repeat to the noble Baroness my words, which were that consultation and informal engagement, including on draft statutory instruments, will take place where there is a material impact or policy change.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I add my support to the amendment so excellently moved by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and I thank my noble friends Lord Hamilton and Lord Naseby, who have spoken about the dangers that are entailed if we do not introduce measures such as this amendment into the Bill. There is a risk of executive power-grab. I am not at all saying that that is the intention, but the possibility of that would be opened and surely, as we have just argued in the previous legislative discussion, it is so important that we ensure that Parliament has control, not a few Ministers. That is what I hoped we were going to do when we were revising the laws that had been adopted from the EU.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I can add very little to the extraordinary speeches we just heard, many of them quite brief but absolutely targeted and to the point. I simply want to add just two more issues that perhaps have been mentioned but not stressed.

The first is that a carve-out of financial services from the REUL Bill is not the carve-out of some minor area of insignificant interest. Financial services are in effect our largest and most significant industry at this point in time in the UK and will be for many years in the future, and indeed the products that come from financial services are the lifeblood of our economy, both for businesses and for ordinary people. Therefore, scrutiny of decisions that are made within this arena surely has to be a central and significant responsibility of Parliament.

I say to the Minister, who always prays in aid consultation, both formal and informal, in the process of making change, when did consultation replace scrutiny in the mind of this Government? Parliament is not a consultee but the body that is democratically elected to make the key legislative decisions about the future of our country. Its relegation to the role of a consultee, which in effect happens and which this legislation would in some ways counter, is, I believe, completely unacceptable to most people when they have the opportunity to face up to it and think through this issue. Therefore, we on these Benches are very much in support of these amendments, and if necessary we will go through the Lobbies if the Minister is unable to accept at least a significant one of them.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, before I address the amendments, I want to acknowledge the work of my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe, who had been leading for these Benches on this Bill until very recently, and thank him for his hard work and generosity in the way he has handed over custody of the Bill to me and my noble friend Lord Livermore. We are very grateful to my noble friend for everything he did, and he continues to advise and support—as noble Lords who know him can well imagine.

However, we are on Report, and this is the stage where we cut to the chase and pick our battles. I have been leading on the retained EU law Bill and am very familiar with the arguments raised in this debate, but we are treating this Bill slightly differently to the retained EU law Bill because our concerns on that Bill revolved around the lack of certainty created by the Government’s approach. There was no definitive list of the terms of retained EU law that would be revoked at the end of the year, and the absence of that list meant limited scope for meaningful engagement, scrutiny or consultation. That was our fundamental objection to that Bill.

The process set out in this Bill is different, with most of the retained law listed in the legislation and to be repealed and revoked only once replaced by regulations that are UK-specific. Fundamentally, we think that changing the process outlined in the Bill at this stage in a manner that the sector has not asked for—it is very different to the engagement that we had on the retained EU law Bill, where there was strong demand from various sectors for change—would introduce uncertainty.

The Lords were right to ask the Government to think again on the retained EU law Bill, but amendments to one Bill do not automatically work for another and, in any event— as I know from having worked on the retained EU law Bill—the version of the amendment we are considering today has already been convincingly overturned by the elected House and we have had to come back with another. As we need to pick our battles and to prioritise at this stage in our proceedings, we on these Benches will not be participating should the issue be put to a Division today.

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[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move government Amendment 2 and will also speak to the other amendments in this group. These are a set of minor amendments that the Government have tabled to ensure that all provisions of the Bill and the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 operate effectively and fully achieve their intended policy effect.

Turning first to Amendments 2 and 118, central counterparties, or CCPs, are a type of financial market infrastructure and are crucial to global financial stability. Following the UK’s exit from the EU, the Treasury established a temporary recognition regime to enable eligible non-UK CCPs to continue providing important clearing services to UK firms while equivalence and recognition decisions were ongoing. To allow CCPs exiting the temporary recognition regime without recognition time to wind-down exposures to UK firms, a run-off regime was also established. The length of the run-off is determined by the Bank of England for each CCP, with a current maximum period of one year. As a result of provisions in this Bill tabled in Committee, the Bank of England will have the ability to extend the maximum run-off period for CCPs from one year to three years and six months. This would allow overseas CCPs currently due to exit the run-off regime at the end of June 2023 further time to apply for recognition if desired, and to remain able to offer services to UK firms during that period.

Amendments 2 and 118 seek to facilitate continuity of services under the run-off regime in the event that Royal Assent of this Bill occurs very close to or after 30 June. Amendment 118 provides that the Bill provision that gives the Bank the power to extend the run-off period comes into force on Royal Assent. This will allow the Bank of England to extend the run-off for those CCPs that wish to continue providing services to UK firms but need more time to apply for recognition, as was set out in Committee. However, if Royal Assent is secured after relevant CCPs have exited the run-off, government Amendment 2 will give the Bank of England the ability to reinsert a CCP into the run-off regime by determining that a CCP’s run-off is to be treated as not having expired. This will allow the Bank of England to extend the length of a CCP’s run-off period even in cases where a CCP has already exited the run-off. This will avoid any potential disruption that could otherwise arise if CCPs exited the run-off period before the Committee stage amendment had come into force.

Amendments 3, 16, 17, 21, 22, 34, 53 and 54 ensure that the references to the regulators’ objectives in the Bill and the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 include the new competitiveness and growth secondary objectives for the PRA and the FCA, and the Bank of England’s new secondary innovation objective.

Turning to Amendments 5 and 6, Schedule 5 to the Bill makes amendments to FSMA to ensure that the regulatory gateway for financial promotions legislated for in this Bill can be implemented and operated. One way that it does this is by applying other relevant parts of FSMA to ensure that the FCA can oversee the gateway effectively. Amendment 5 aligns the wording between a provision introduced by Schedule 5 and a similar existing provision within FSMA. These provisions relate to the issuance of notices to vary permissions or to impose requirements. The amendment will ensure that the regulator is required to provide notice when they propose to vary a permission in all cases, and to avoid any potential duplicatory requirements to provide notices. Amendment 5 replaces the relevant provisions in Schedule 5 and in FSMA with a single new provision. This will help to ensure that these similar provisions are interpreted consistently and achieve the intended policy effect. Amendment 6 is consequential on Amendment 5.

Amendment 49 ensures that the CBA panel’s statutory remit includes cost-benefit analyses for rules for critical third parties, and that it is therefore able to provide advice to the Bank in relation to this. Amendment 86 corrects a drafting error, ensuring that Schedule 11, regarding the central counterparties resolution regime, functions as intended. It provides clarity over the Treasury’s power to lay regulations restricting the making of partial property transfers. Amendments 87, 88 and 89 make technical corrections and clarifications to the insurer insolvency provisions in Schedule 12 to the Bill. Amendment 89 provides a clarification to make clearer the amount of FSCS top-up compensation that policyholders will be eligible to receive following a write-down order, meeting the stated policy intent. Amendment 87 clarifies that a liability is, to the extent of its reduction by a write-down order, to be treated as extinguished unless and until revived by the variation or revocation of the order. This helps to ensure that the intent of the provisions is achieved by increasing legal certainty about the treatment of written-down liabilities.

All these amendments seek to ensure that the provisions in this Bill achieve the policy intent and minimise potential disruption to the UK financial services sector. Therefore, I beg to move Amendment 2 and intend to move the remaining amendments when they are reached.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I will make very few comments on this group of amendments. I accept that they are technical. I find some of them distasteful, particularly those that enhance the scope of the competitiveness and economic growth agendas. I fear very much that the underlying concept and construct will lead us back in the direction of the kind of risk taking that created the crisis that we went through so badly in 2008 and 2009. However, given that our attempts to turn around those objectives have not won support from other parts of the House, there is no sensible reason for me to object to these more technical amendments, other than to say that it is a sad day and that many of us will be revisiting this, if we live long enough, when we hit the next financial crisis.

[Lord Eatwell (Lab)]

My Lords, I will make two points on these technical amendments. As the Minister said, central counterparties are fundamental institutions in maintaining the stability of financial markets. This measure, to continue the role of overseas-based central counterparties, is enormously sensible. But there is an issue that has not been addressed. What if the overseas central counterparties decide not to provide services to UK firms—if they decide, following the UK exit from the European Union, that they will withdraw from providing such a service? What provision has His Majesty’s Government made for providing those services in those circumstances?

Secondly, I echo the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, made about the competitiveness and economic growth objective that is being incorporated as a subsidiary objective. As a subsidiary objective, it is unobjectionable. What is striking in the government amendments that we will debate is the way in which it is continuously privileged, such that it no longer remains subsidiary; extra reports and consideration will now be required, all focused on one objective. This is a serious mistake, because the statutory objectives of the regulatory authorities will change with circumstance over time. Writing into law that one objective should be privileged is a significant error. The primary and secondary objectives make sense, but overegging the position of a subsidiary objective is a mistake.

My main point at this time is to ask the Minister what measures provide central counterparty provision in those areas where overseas central counterparties decide not to act for UK firms.

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It is indeed this economy and its people who bear the cost of that dual system on which my noble friend Lord Trenchard touched, the danger being that the lack of competitiveness might stymie the economy. The reporting requirement is important to encourage further reform and transparency. It will enable a determined effort to be made to move rapidly. It matters that we have greater certainty about where things have got to and what still remains to do. Many do not have ready access to legal help to navigate their way through the retained EU law book and the more complex system for the financial sector, so I hope that my noble friend the Minister will look kindly on and support this amendment. It will make for fairness so businesses are clear about the rules, and it would be a means to the prosperity of the whole economy that we need to encourage. In my view we need to move back more rapidly and thoroughly to our common-law system, and I urge the Minister and the Treasury to be equally as receptive to the obligation to report regularly as her colleagues on the Business team.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I will be very brief. I have no objection to either of these amendments, although for very different reasons from the previous two speakers. On the first, which is about the report on retained EU law, it seems sensible to have a proper and lasting reporting requirement to Parliament, although I point out to those who are very worried about additional burdens that the report itself generates a huge amount of effort, energy and paperwork, so I doubt it goes very far in reducing any burden on anybody.

I am more interested in the second amendment tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, Amendment 3B, because it embeds the principle of accountability to Parliament and the wider world and states that, where changes are made in regulation, other than in situations of genuine urgency—I underscore “genuine” because we have seen that flex a great deal, with things said to be very urgent that seem to have no urgency whatever attached to them—the Treasury should carry out consultations.

I say to both previous speakers that if they speak to the industry they will find that the struggles that the financial sector has been facing in the UK—the decline in listings, virtually the complete loss of the European swaps market, our gradual exclusion from a significant range of activities that are international and certainly pan-European and fintech outsourcing extensively into Europe—are post-Brexit consequences. Frankly, I do not think that amendments such as this, in the hope that there will be much lighter-touch regulation, which is what common law really means, are going to remedy that problem. We built our reputation on quality and consistency and, like it or not, those are quite demanding standards that light-touch standards do not achieve.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, for bringing these amendments forward and we ask him to pass on our very best wishes to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and her husband. I am sure she will be impressed by the way he introduced her ideas this afternoon. I feel somewhat that we are intruding on a bit of a family squabble on the Government Benches with this group in that, in the retained EU law Bill, the amendment that she brought forward was as a consequence of her deeply felt disappointment—shared by the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, if I remember her speech at the time, and others—at the Government’s change of approach to that Bill. The change of approach was one that we had been calling for and very much welcomed, and we did not feel on that Bill and we do not feel on this Bill that there is an awful lot to be gained by these amendments. There is not a huge amount to be lost either, particularly with Amendment 3A. We are interested in what the Government have to say about them, but they are not amendments that we take a particularly firm view on either way because we think they are designed with a rather different purpose in mind, which is to hold the Government’s feet to the fire.

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[Lord Tyrie (Non-Afl)]

I declare my interest as a consultant to DLA Piper, which helped me with drafting the amendment.

The need to provide the RDC with statutory autonomy was a recommendation of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, which I chaired in 2013. The purpose of my amendment is to give the FCA’s internal watchdog, the Regulatory Decisions Committee, greater independence by putting it on a statutory footing. I set out why this is necessary in Committee so I will not repeat all those arguments now but, in a nutshell, the benefit will be greater fairness for firms and individuals; it can be accomplished without compromising high-quality enforcement.

The case for this is pretty straightforward. The RDC was created to act as a check on what would otherwise be the FCA’s almost untrammelled power of enforcement. The RDC is the FCA’s in-house watchdog —a second pair of eyes—which can stop an enforcement action. In theory, firms could go to the Upper Tribunal, the equivalent of the High Court, but that is very costly and the fact that its proceedings are in public creates huge reputational risk for a firm or individual going there. For many of them, that can be terminal. So, the RDC is often the only practical safeguard they have against overly zealous enforcement by the FCA.

The problem for the RDC is that it does not have enough statutory authority to do the job as well as it should. At the moment, the RDC’s operational independence is wafer-thin. For a start, the RDC is subordinate to the FCA board. The board can and does decide what type of cases the RDC looks at, what resources are available to it and what procedures it should follow. The RDC also sits down the corridor from the enforcement team in the FCA. So it is small wonder that firms think it is much less than fully independent.

The price of the perception that the RDC is not fully independent is not just a sense of unfairness among some in the regulated community; it also carries a significant economic cost. It acts as a deterrent to activity and investment to many who do not want to take a risk of being on the wrong side of the enforcers. It is for these reasons, among others, that the Parliamentary Banking Commission, which I chaired, concluded that the RDC should be provided with statutory autonomy for its operations.

No doubt the Minister will have been briefed by the FCA, via her Treasury officials, that all these changes that I have set out are unnecessary—but they are necessary. The dangers that come with lack of independence have recently been vividly illustrated by the FCA board’s decision significantly to limit the scope of the RDC’s activities. There was very little public discussion. As of 2021, it no longer supervises the FCA’s decisions relating to a firm’s licensing, authorisations—the specific activities permitted under its licence—or an individual’s approval: that is, whether people are suitable for senior appointments under the senior managers’ regime. It also leaves firms and individuals unable to make oral representations in front of the RDC for many decisions that are crucial to their future. For many cases, those oral representations have now been closed down under the 2021 reforms.

So the narrowing of the remit will matter a lot, particularly for smaller firms. What is more, it will drive a coach and horses through the RDC’s already fragile independence and certainly through the perception of it. The fact that such a change could have been pushed through by the FCA board, after a consultation exercise which did not even support it, illustrates the need for much greater accountability and much better explanations from the regulator. Something was already needed in 2013 when we looked at this, to boost the RDC’s operational independence, but this 2021 reform shows that it is even more badly needed now. The modest amendment on the Marshalled List will entrench the RDC’s independence in statute. It will give the RDC the jurisdiction to challenge—publicly, if necessary —FCA board decisions that are relevant to its work, and it will create a direct statutory line of accountability to Parliament for everything it does.

Since 2013, I have scarcely heard any arguments against the banking commission’s proposal and, since I raised these issues in early March, I have been flooded with support from all sides of the financial services industry, and from a number of Peers and several former senior regulators. Two former Cabinet Secretaries have contacted me to tell me they strongly support it, as has the right reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury. This is quite a large collection of varied support for a relatively small but sensible measure. They have done this, I think, because it has clear upsides, and neither they nor I can think of any downsides. It does not even carry an Exchequer cost.

I very much hope that the Minister will not be the last opponent standing when she stands up, but, if she is unpersuaded, I very much hope that she will at least agree to a consultation taking place on whether something should be done to boost the RDC’s independence, with an open mind on what should be needed. In that conciliatory frame of mind, I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I had the privilege of adding my name to this amendment, and of serving with the noble Lord, Lord Tyrie, in his pre-Lordship days, when he chaired the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. Like virtually everyone else who was on that committee and had spent two years taking evidence across the full range of issues that underpinned the crisis of 2008 and 2009, we were very surprised that the Government did not seize upon the recommendations for a body such as the RDC to have the kind of statutory independence that is described in this amendment. The amendment is extremely well drafted, as anybody reading it can recognise. It is not one of those where people say that the idea is good but there is a problem with the language. In this instance, there is not.

I have always thought that the regulator benefits as much as anybody else from oversight and challenge by an independent body with the requisite expertise. I also have the privilege of sitting in the Economic Affairs Committee. We have had discussions in the context of the independence of the Bank of England, but this has far broader implications. The problems of groupthink are becoming extraordinarily evident. Creating independence in a body such as the RDC is a mechanism for breaking down some of that groupthink. It is not because people are bad, incompetent or inadequate, but because, if there is not a process of challenge with sufficient gusto, groupthink begins to take hold. There begins to be a measure of complacency, people become less inclined to challenge and that benefits none of us.

I see no downside to the Government accepting this amendment. I hope that they take it extremely seriously and recognise that the quality of the language is here, meaning that they can run with this amendment as it sits, and that the regulator will benefit, the industry will benefit and individuals will benefit. There are very few occasions when one can look at a measure and say that this is true on all those fronts.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Report stage
Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashcombe (Con)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interest as an employee of Marsh Ltd, the insurance broker. I offer my support to the amendments in this group, so thoughtfully proposed by my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond. My noble friend the Minister has indeed made improvements since Grand Committee, and for that I thank her, but I wonder whether the Government have gone quite far enough. I particularly thank the Minister for the generous amount of time she spent with me the other evening.

My noble friend the Minister’s amendment proposes two reports, 12 months apart, as has been mentioned, but I believe that it is important that reports from the regulators should become an annual occurrence concerning the competitiveness and growth objectives. The financial sector of the United Kingdom is a major driver of revenue for the country and we must ensure consistency over time, not just the immediate future. In turn, this suggests the need for consistent metrics on which to report, allowing for the proper comparisons.

Amendment 19 concerns the principle of proportionality, recognising that not all financial services are the same. Again, I will look at the insurance market in particular, but I suspect there are similarities in other financial lines. I am all for keeping individual retail and small business customers safe when working with insurance companies, but there are significant differences to be found between them, users of the London wholesale insurance market—which is used by knowledgeable buyers, using one of many potential advisers—and captive insurance entities. Smaller customers need a level of protection not required by either of these other two groups.

In the debate on this amendment, I wish to refer particularly to captive insurance companies. Captives are wholly owned subsidiaries set up to provide risk mitigation services—insurance—for their parent company and/or related entities. The parent is inevitably a sophisticated entity, almost certainly hiring advisers. They should require a very different approach from the retail customer.

There currently seems to be a one-size-fits-all approach by the regulators when reviewing insurance companies that does not take into account the nature of the purchaser. This is not only time consuming but costly in comparison with other overseas regimes. Captives provide low risk to the financial system and the buyer of their services requires a significantly different level of regulation from an insurance company trading with individuals. They are fundamentally different.

There is no captive company authorised in the UK and even those of our major companies, including UK public bodies, are located in overseas jurisdictions. The captive insurance business generates in excess of $50 billion annually, and here lies a significant opportunity for growth in the insurance sector which, should the regulator alter its stance and act with proportionality, could, as an example, add significant additional capital into the country.

Amendments 40 and 41 refer to the requirements to publish regulatory performance on authorised firms and new authorisations. The Government certainly recognise in Clause 37 the need to improve the regulatory culture, but we need more teeth in terms of reporting metrics so it becomes standard practice within the regulators. This culture needs to become ingrained.

The metrics being proposed in Amendment 40 are granular concerning timing and would bring some needed haste to the system. In business, time is often of the essence and being held up disproportionately by a UK regulator, as opposed those in other jurisdictions, acts as a deterrent to trade in this country. The metrics being proposed in Amendment 41 link together to give a consistent window into the activities of the regulators. With quarterly reporting it will be possible to gain some comparative statistics that will tell a story.

Lastly, Amendment 92 concerns determination of application. London remains one of the world centres of insurance and we must do all we can to preserve its status, but there are for sure a number of other locations that can attract capital more easily and so challenge it. Unfortunately, regulatory burden is regularly raised as an issue damaging London’s ability to attract additional capital and support the market.

Concerns have been raised about the overall performance of the regulators in terms of timing, with authorisations and approvals taking longer they should. It is recognised that they are falling behind their KPIs. Insurance companies here have experienced delays in case handler assignment, which is the beginning of a domino effect. In addition, concerns have been expressed over some of the questions asked and the appropriateness of the data being requested, leading to additional time and expense. The regulators need to streamline their activities by being relevant.

These amendments refer to a great extent to measures designed to bring some more accountability to the reporting by the regulators. I realise there is a consultation with the financial markets, but I believe that the measures being proposed are the bare minimum that should be required and included in the Bill. These sets of metrics will prevent the regulators deciding which of their own sets of data to publish. Certainly, from an insurance perspective, this will allow life to proceed way more freely. This will ensure transparency from the regulators, which is surely what is being strived for.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group fall essentially into two categories. Those that improve communication and representation to statutory panels are small but positive improvements and, although I remain of the view that these panels should be given proper independence, I am glad to see that at least there is some improvement in the regime.

The other amendments I view very differently, and I will pick up the issues raised by the noble Lords, Lord Vaux and Lord Davies of Brixton, that if the reporting requirements included a proper consideration of how the competitiveness and growth objectives as they became operational were also impacting on financial stability, systemic risk and consumer protection, I would find myself very much in favour of them. But actually I regard them as a sort of slightly disguised mechanism to enhance the status of the secondary objectives to something which I think the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, described on Monday as “secondary plus”, or even “secondary plus plus”. I think that is exactly what these various amendments are intended to do.

This House knows well that I join Sir Paul Tucker, Sir John Vickers, pretty much every former Governor of the Bank of England and many others in regretting the introduction of these objectives because, for exactly the reason that others have said, they will incentivise and drive risky behaviour and we will come to rue that. So this further enhancement of these secondary objectives, very much driven by the industry—we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, how strong the feeling was that we try and get towards making these objectives either primary or close to primary—should be a warning to all of us. So I cannot give these amendments my support, although we are obviously not going to vote on them today. However, it is necessary that the House takes note of some degree of warning.

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[Lord Eatwell (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 18 in the name of my noble friend Lady Chapman, while also recognising the contribution made in the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and my noble friend Lord Davies.

This is an extremely urgent matter because between 6 million and 7 million of our fellow citizens conduct all their financial affairs in cash. Cash is becoming increasingly unacceptable in a whole series of financial transactions that are conducted by electronic means. This means that cash is ceasing to be money, because money is something which is generally accepted in payment of a debt. If you cannot use cash to buy things, it is no longer money.

It is therefore necessary for both the Bank of England and the Treasury to consider making available to all citizens in this country a means of electronic payment. That is a big challenge, but it is urgent because we are all aware that, over the next decade, virtually everything will be entirely electronic and cash will be unacceptable in most transactions. My noble friend Lady Chapman has hit the nail right on the head by saying that this is a consumer protection objective. That 10% of our fellow citizens needs to be protected by financial inclusion in this way. This is an urgent matter which should not be postponed.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, in speaking to this group I am channelling my colleague, my noble friend Lady Tyler of Enfield, who is unwell and, to her distress, cannot be here. I will focus on Amendment 18, which she has signed, which would require the FCA to have regard to financial inclusion within the consumer protection objective. My noble friend Lady Tyler chaired the Select Committee on Financial Exclusion in 2017 and this was a cornerstone recommendation. A further Lords review in 2020 came to the same conclusion, as did the Treasury Select Committee in 2022.

My noble friend Lady Tyler made a powerful speech in Committee so I will not repeat the detail, but I will cite the briefing I have received from Fair4All Finance, which finds that more than 17 million people—I previously used the number the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, used of between 6 million and 7 million people who are under stress for this—in the UK are in financially vulnerable circumstances, with access to credit being increasingly difficult. We will discuss access to cash later.

Endless years of discussion on this topic have failed to significantly move the dial. Basic bank accounts are a little improved but still limited. The hopes for credit unions or fintech solutions have faded. Frankly, nothing will change unless the FCA puts its shoulder to the wheel. Amendment 18, if noble Lords look at it in detail, is not the introduction of a new objective; it is a clarification of the consumer objective through a “have regard” duty. In that way, it is different from the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes—which I do not object to, but the Government have frequently said that we cannot have additional objectives. This is not an additional objective; it is clarification and emphasis of a key aspect of an objective.

Amendment 18 does not ask the FCA to step into territory which the Government have said is theirs—to close the gap on financial inclusion—but to use powers within its existing scope, which it has shown us it will not do without this emphasis from Parliament. I very much support Amendment 18 and consequently hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, will ensure that it is tested in the House if the Government do not accept it—although government acceptance is of course the preferred route for us all.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Report stage
Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with everything that has been said by everyone in the debate so far and support all these amendments. I know that my noble friend Lord Bridges is mortified that he cannot be here today. We discussed the arguments and I supported them in Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, is absolutely right about how this would have gone down in the Treasury. But I do not want to be grudging, given the amount of movement that the Minister has been able to achieve as a result of the debate, and the government amendments in this group will make a difference. We are dealing with the old “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” problem here. This group of amendments would have taken it a lot further forward, although the government amendments are helpful.

I do not want to anticipate the next debate, but the key question will be, as a number of noble Lords have pointed out, the resource that is made available. If it is not to be through a body such as the OBR, as my noble friend Lord Bridges was suggesting, it will have to be provided by the parliamentary authorities. Whether that will work, and how effective it will be, will depend on the extent to which the Government give a clear indication that they would welcome it, although it would be a matter for the House. I suspect that would be helpful.

I thank the Minister for having listened to the debate in Committee, which we are in danger of repeating, and having taken some measures, if not going perhaps as far as my noble friend Lord Bridges’s Amendment 64 would require. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, for so ably making the case for it.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly. It will be evident to the House by now that, as was true in Committee, essentially every speaker takes one position, other than the Government. Maybe one or two support the Government’s position, but overwhelmingly there has been a common feeling across political ideologies and views. People from different perspectives, including those who are independent in this House, all share the same set of concerns.

We all particularly welcomed the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, because it was a piece of completely new thinking—a way to break the conundrum very effectively by making sure that an office of financial regulatory accountability would change the game by providing Parliament and anyone else responsible for scrutiny and accountability with the analysis, information and data they need to do that effectively. I very much hope that the Government will take it away and consider it.

I join all other noble Lords in finding not only the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, but those from the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and the others in this group extremely constructive. I vary slightly from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth; I understand that the Government have moved a little in the amendments they have brought forward in this group but, my goodness, it is a baby step. This issue is far too big to be dealt with only by baby steps.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by acknowledging the government amendments in this group, which make a number of changes that we think are sensible to ensure that the cost/benefit analysis panels have representatives from industry, to allow the Treasury to direct statutory panels to make annual reports and to make it the Treasury’s job to appoint the complaints commissioner. These all represent steps in the right direction—even if, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, has just said, they are not necessarily the giant leaps that some would hope to see.

We tabled Amendment 39 in this group, which would require the FCA consumer panel to produce annual reports on the regulator’s fulfilment of its statutory consumer protection duties, and my noble friend Lady Hayter explained why we were backing this so firmly and spoke about the work with the British Steel pensioners, led by Nick Smith. She saved my blushes because Nick is my husband. I know that is not a declarable interest, but in the interests of transparency, I should probably let people know. We are pleased to see Amendment 50 and will not be pressing our Amendment 39 to a vote because of it. We believe that the government amendments go a significant way to addressing our concerns, so will not press our amendment, but that does not mean that we are convinced that consumer issues are by any means resolved, and we may have to revisit this topic in future.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, helpfully introduced the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, and presented his proposal for an independent office for financial regulatory accountability. This is an interesting proposal but, when considering the Government’s numerous concessions on scrutiny and accountability, at this point we would not be minded to support it at a Division, because the creation of such a body needs significant work and amounts to a fundamental change in how we regulate the sector. We do not want to pre-empt what the Minister has to say, but it was not a core focus of the future regulatory framework review, the outcomes of which the Bill seeks to implement.

The amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, raise important questions about the capacity of parliamentary committees to scrutinise the regulators’ output, and this is something we have consistently raised with the Minister during our private discussions. When I say “we”, that is very much the royal “we”—I obviously mean my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe. I am sure that he is grateful to the Minister for the time she has given to him, to my noble friend Lord Livermore and to me in recent weeks. While we understand that it is for Parliament to make its own arrangements, both now and in future, we hope that the Government will acknowledge the substantial workload that committees will have and remain open-minded about whether and how the regulators can better facilitate Parliament’s work.

I am especially grateful to my noble friend Lord Eatwell for his amendments to the OFRA texts, but I suppose this highlights in part the difficulties with supporting the detail of the proposal at a Division at this point. We see that many people agree with the principle, but there is probably a great deal more work to be done on the detail.

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[Lord Carrington of Fulham (Con)]

My Lords, I will add my two cents’ worth to encourage the establishment of a Joint Committee. I cannot believe that having a committee in each House of this Parliament would work effectively, for all the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, has suggested. The committees of this House and the other place are grossly underresourced in any case. We need a committee looking at something as detailed and complex as this which operates in the way that the Public Accounts Committee in the other place is set up, is dedicated to look at regulation and has the resourcing to double-guess not only the regulators but the advisers who advise them, so that it can stand up and come to its own opinion. In the small time that the members of those committees are able to dedicate to the committee, with all the other duties they have as parliamentarians, it should be able to analyse the evidence and come up with sensible, and inevitably highly technical, solutions.

I have some experience of the committees of both Houses. I chaired the Treasury Select Committee, donkey’s years ago, and I served on the Economic Affairs Committee here for some time. Neither of those committees has the resources to be able to undertake this kind of task. It needs a completely new structure. Possibly the only model we can look at is the PAC, which has the National Audit Office advising it very closely. I am not suggesting we should set up a national audit office for regulation, although I know my noble friend Lord Bridges has suggested such a thing. We need to make sure that whatever is set up is properly resourced. I recognise that it is a matter for both Houses to decide how they do that, but we have to be absolutely clear that both Houses can do that only if the financial resources are made available by His Majesty’s Treasury and the Government to enable them to do so. It will be a decision to be taken by His Majesty’s Government and my noble friend the Minister to ensure that the resourcing is available.

It is a necessary step. However, it is a step and almost certainly not the conclusion. Once we have experience of regulating the regulators, we will be able to judge what other changes are needed to make sure that the regulation is effective and that financial markets in London are regulated in a way that is effective and convincing for participants in those markets on a global basis.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on being so persuasive. The Government have listened carefully to his advice and have come forward with amendments that are identical in their outcome, even if perhaps they have found a more effective or legally acceptable way to set out the wording. I am sure that that is a step forward, but I want to join the chorus.

I had the privilege of being on the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, which in effect was a Joint Committee of both Houses. It was very much driven by the Government, who set it up in the first place, and it was properly resourced. From the work we did over the two years, there are two lessons to be drawn. One is that, with that resource, you can genuinely produce the evidence and go into the detailed questioning that is necessary to expose what may not have been obvious from a superficial or limited inspection; in-depth was possible because of the resource that was made available. The second lesson is that as a Joint Committee—I am very attracted to Joint Committees, as they avoid the duplication that others have talked of—that commission received a degree of respect and significance that is probably not available to a committee that is the creature of one House but not the other. The joining together of the forces of both Houses was meaningful.

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[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this debate and I will speak to Amendments 82 to 85 and 110 and 111 in my name. I start by thanking the Minister and Treasury officials for all the work they have done around access to cash and, indeed, the moves they have taken. It is great testament to all those organisations which have campaigned on cash for so many years, and will make a real difference to people up and down the country.

Without in any sense pre-empting the work that the regulator and others will do on this, I ask my noble friend the Minister to set out some thoughts on what reasonable access might look like. What are the Government expecting? Allied to that, while I join her in welcoming the increase in the number of shared banking hubs that are coming online, what do the Government see as a reasonable number of hubs to be open by the end of this year?

My Amendment 82 seeks to go further and is really predicated on a very simple belief: what point is access to cash if there are no places to spend it? What currency does cash have in those circumstances? The start point would be really to have all businesses with a physical presence mandated to accept cash. Stepping back from that, as my amendment does, does my noble friend the Minister not agree that any government service, be it central or local, and any public service, particularly that which involves a payment, must accept cash? Similarly, any third party acting on behalf of national or local government in performing a public service should be mandated to accept cash. Does my noble friend see it as reasonable for any business, private though it may be, with a turnover of £100,000—as set out in my Amendment 82—to have to continue to accept cash while we move and transition towards a more digital financial services system?

Amendment 83 seeks to make our cash network part of the critical national infrastructure. There are two key reasons for this. First, it would enable cash usage, enable the economy to work and enable financial inclusion. Secondly, does my noble friend the Minister not agree that, when one looks at the current geopolitical state of the world, making the cash network part of the critical national infrastructure would provide a good second and third line of resilience if the digital systems should go down or suffer an attack? As things stand, that is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Amendment 84 addresses banking services specifically and would enable the Treasury to determine that such services must be available on a high street with a certain number of shops and premises. Banking services would include withdrawals and deposits and must cover both individuals and businesses. Indeed, as the amendment sets out, if there is a last branch standing, that branch should not be allowed to close unless alternative provisions are already in place, such as a banking hub.

Amendment 85 addresses the accessibility of financial services and products. This is differentiated from access to financial services, although there are some obvious overlaps. The amendment points out the difficulties with the accessibility of certain financial services and products. The obvious and most easy example to understand is card payment machines where the buttons are removed and there is merely a flat screen. They are completely inaccessible for me and thousands of people.

In Committee, my noble friend the Minister talked about discussions between the Government, the RNIB and other organisations. Can she update the House on where those discussions have got to? How will the Government ensure that, whether one is paying for a meal or a bicycle, the means of payment is accessible for all those seeking to use it?

Amendment 110 addresses the need for a review of access to digital financial services and products. I raised this in Committee and do so again because it seems highly necessary and a logical next step from the Access to Cash Review, which was completed in 2019. Although I am a staunch supporter of cash and people’s access to and acceptance of it, the future is digital. However, we must ensure not only that that future is accessible but, equally crucially, that the transition to it is accessible. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that further work by HMT in this area would not only make sense following the Access to Cash Review but do a great service in addressing issues which will be felt sharply if we do not address them at this stage?

I will give just one brief example. I could have on my handheld device the best mobile banking app ever created, but if I do not have the digital skills and the confidence to use that app, no payment will be made. Similarly, if, in those same circumstances, I have those digital skills but no mobile connectivity or broadband, that payment will not be made. We need this review of access to digital financial services, before these problems become acute and they affect not only people’s finances but all elements of their lives.

Finally, Amendment 111 addresses the issue of the last branch standing in any particular location but seeks to push a bit further. If there is a remaining branch on a town high street, that is a good thing. However, if that branch does not offer a full banking service, particularly to small and medium-sized businesses and micro-businesses, and if it does not serve more than 20% of the local community, does my noble friend the Minister not agree that we should change the regulations to enable a shared banking hub to be opened in that area?

I look forward to my noble friend the Minister’s response. I hope she will respond fully to all my amendments, but particularly to Amendment 111. A very simple change between Report and Third Reading would make such a potential difference for many of the areas in those circumstances.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I will be exceedingly brief because we took, as we should have, a lot of time on this issue during Committee. We have also discussed financial exclusion already. Once again, I am channelling my noble friend Lady Tyler of Enfield, who wishes that she were not ill and could be here today. I will focus my remarks on Amendment 80 in the name of my noble friend Lady Tyler, and which is signed by me.

The numbers that have been provided to any parliamentarian of interest by LINK on the rate of bank branch closures are frankly scary. The number of bank branches is now below 5,000 across the country and is expected to fall to around 1,000 in the next few years. Amendment 80 gives the FCA power, where certain conditions are met, to direct the establishment of a banking hub. Banking hubs are the solution proposed by the banking industry, in association with LINK, to provide a physical banking facility which is essentially a collective of the relevant banks and the Post Office, in locations where bank branches have disappeared. I am very sympathetic to the idea that the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, proposed, where a branch in name but not in practice because its services are so limited would qualify as well.

LINK has recommended 100 of these shared hubs, but so far only six have opened. Quite often, that is because of the resistance of the banking institutions, which, in effect under the current scheme, have a veto on whether these hubs happen. The gap is yawning and the FCA needs to step in. Because this was raised in Committee, I say that anyone who thinks that online banking is a substitute for face-to-face banking can live only a very vanilla life. I found out the hard way that the systems online and the telephone constantly get it wrong. Often, the only way to resolve a complex issue is face to face. As others have said, including the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, the 5 million people who find digital difficult are even more disadvantaged.

I seriously hope that the Government will accept Amendment 80 because it is the missing mechanism to deliver the project—the Government themselves back the project—of banking hubs and shared banking. To get it delivered we need Amendment 80 to put powers into the hands of the FCA to make sure that it happens. This is a project, I repeat, that the Government themselves have sponsored, in a sense. We need the enablement and delivery to take place rapidly.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on tabling his amendments and his tenacity in raising these issues on a very regular basis. He is absolutely right to do so. We were pleased to table Amendment 81 in Committee, and we re-signed it when retabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, on Report.

We strongly welcome the Government finally bringing forward meaningful protections for cash access. Just in case the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, starts to doubt his powers of persuasion, we wonder if the Minister could explain why the noble Lord did not seem to have the magic touch when it came to getting him to accept it. The position seems to have changed somewhat now.

It is good that organisations such as Which? have welcomed this concession, noting that cash continues to be hugely important for many households, particularly those which need to keep track of their spending during the cost of living crisis. People should not have to pay fees to access their own money. While we welcomed the Government’s previous move to offer cashback at some retailers without a purchase, cashback services are not available anywhere near widely enough for that to be a substitute.

We welcome the progress made, but there is obviously a lot more to be done. An increasing number of people are finding themselves with little or no access to face-to-face banking services. While the banking hub initiative has promise, its coverage is too limited for it to be anything like a viable solution at this point. We welcome the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, has tabled several amendments on this. We hope that the Minister is able to go beyond previous assurances, and we look forward to her reply.

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[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, the Financial Ombudsman Service was established through the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 to provide for the proportionate, prompt and informal resolution of disputes between consumers and financial services firms. The FOS offers a cost-free service for consumers, which is fundamental to its purpose.

The FOS is funded by a combination of an annual levy on regulated firms and case fees. Under the current framework, it is responsible for setting its case fee rules and can charge case fees only to firms that are subject to complaints. This means that claims management companies—or CMCs—and other professional representatives cannot be charged for bringing cases to the FOS. The Government heard the concerns raised by noble Lords, particularly by my noble friend Lady Noakes during Grand Committee, about CMCs bringing large numbers of vexatious claims against firms to the FOS.

Amendment 90 therefore addresses those concerns by amending FSMA 2000 to give the Treasury the power to make regulations specifying categories of persons to whom the FOS can charge case fees. The Treasury intends to add CMCs and other professional representatives such as law firms to this list. This will enable the FOS to amend its rules to charge case fees to CMCs and other professional representatives for bringing complaints, subject to its usual consultation processes. By specifying who can be charged by the FOS in regulations, the Government can ensure that the full range of claims management models can be effectively captured. It also allows flexibility to amend this list in future if different models emerge.

The Government are clear that all consumers should be able to access the FOS free of charge and without the need for any CMC support. The FOS remaining a cost-free service for consumers is fundamental to its purpose. The amendment therefore expressly prevents the Treasury adding consumers to the categories of persons who can be included in the regulations.

In summary, Amendment 90 will ensure that the Treasury is able to empower the FOS to charge case fees to CMCs while ensuring that the FOS remains cost-free for consumers. I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

From these Benches, the amendment makes sense to us.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Happily, it makes sense to us as well. Without wishing to delay anybody—remembering the exchanges we had before this debate started today—I wonder whether the Minister could indicate the level of fees. He said that consumers would be excluded, which is very important. Are the Government confident that this will not in any way suppress the use of this service? Do they have anything in mind to improve awareness of the service among consumers?

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 13th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords I rise because this amendment allows me to do two things that I do not do very often. One is to thank the Minister because the amendments that she has brought forward are constructive, as others have described. The second is to say to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan: finally, a benefit from Brexit. One down, which pleases me, I have to say.

I want to ask the Minister if, in the course of the review, she will look at the industry that has mushroomed from the vetting of PEPs. I dealt with the American Express problem that others have described. I filled in my forms and still have my card—I am afraid that the BA miles win me over. I decided that I would open a savings account at Chase Bank as they were offering some good rates but discovered that I was caught up in this PEP process and the bank asked for a raft of information that, frankly, I should have never been asked for. The breaking point was a phone call asking me for payslips for my husband. On his death, I had inherited from him and therefore the bank wanted historical payslips. My husband died 17 years ago and I do not know how many people still have their payslips from 17 years ago, never mind those of a dead spouse.

To me, that was typical of the overstepping and exaggeration—gold-plating is almost an understatement —that has been going on in this process. It caused me to go on to the web and discover that there is a raft of consultants, advisers and legal entities that have become engaged in this process and taken straightforward guidelines from the FCA and blown them up into something extraordinary and complex. I am furious with the FCA because it does not enforce the guidelines; I hope the Minister will convey that and that the Government will become furious with the FCA for not enforcing its own guidelines. I hope that she will also encourage it to use the review to look at the vast industry that has burgeoned and makes its profits from making life an absolute misery for anybody it can catch in the system.

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, I should like to add to this because I have had enough trouble with the PEPs issue for a long time. First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for explaining an important point about why I can get no information from Northern Trust on administering an investment trust in which my wife owned shares in Ireland. We had to get probity in Ireland, but the trust will still not release the money and will not say why. I am getting an absolute blind spot. Even Barclays, which wants money over here to pay off something does not seem to be getting any joy. I suspect that it is because the trust is not allowed to tell us that we are under investigation. That is wrong. If there is a problem, we could unlock it if the trust could just say, “We are trying to investigate this because we think we have to”.

I personally find it offensive that I am deemed to be a risk and a crook. I thought that in this country we were innocent until proven guilty. Actually, this is the other way around. Just because I happen to be a Member of the House of Lords, it is assumed that I am corrupt. This has caused a lot of problems for me and my family, but I am not going any further into detail. We have heard good stories from others, but I do not understand why we are PEPs. I have no access to government contracts and there is no reason to bribe me, sadly. I do not understand the logic behind that, and something should be done. The classification of PEPs should be looked at and revised because a lot of other people who are not PEPs are in places handling government contracts. As far as I know, they are not under permanent scrutiny, so I think you have got the wrong people and it is a nightmare.

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[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an additional interest as stated in the register as a provider of geostrategic advice to Safe Security (SSL) Ltd. I will not repeat the arguments so well put by my noble friend Lord Attlee, who has given much voluntary military service over the years. I have added my name to my noble friend’s Amendment 98, but I also support both Amendments 99 and 100.

The Export Control Organisation at the former Department for International Trade grants export licences for controlled goods for military purposes. Its online export licensing system is called SPIRE. The organisation’s website states:

“We advise that you register your company on SPIRE, benefits include: More Control … Time Saving”.


I understand that it takes much time to obtain a SPIRE licence, but I am not convinced that it saves any time in carrying out this control business. It is of course right that companies wishing to receive licences to conduct this kind of business should be properly vetted and undergo the most stringent checks. However, once they have done that and been granted SPIRE accounts, why do they then find that the money laundering regulations prevent banks opening accounts in order to execute this kind of business under any circumstances?

In Committee, my noble friend the Minister acknowledged that

“the government process for the granting of export control licences focuses on the end use of goods rather than the source of funds paying for them”.

She told the Committee that the Treasury has

“engaged with the Export Control Joint Unit, the Financial Conduct Authority and other partners on this issue”.

She said that she was

“not aware of a systemic issue”,—[Official Report, 21/3/23; col. GC 297.]

but would “act to address it” if the Government identified one. I rather think there is a systemic issue here, because banks run a mile when anyone, particularly an SME, tries to open a bank account to do this kind of business. Banks are not aware of the SPIRE system and give absolutely no recognition to any licence granted under it to a prospective customer. The result of this, at least in some cases, is that the business is being carried out in other jurisdictions, such as Finland, that do not apply these regulations in such a stringent manner. This obviously deprives the Exchequer of corporation tax revenues and results in the official statistics understating the extent of British support for Ukraine.

This does not apply only to military equipment but includes the provision of vehicles to be used as field ambulances. I want to ask the same question of my noble friend the Minister as that asked by my noble friend Lord Attlee: do the Government think that absolute observation of the money laundering regulations is more important than permitting those who are licensed to do this business to do so?

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, we should thank the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, for raising a set of significant issues. I have no specialist knowledge in this area, but I am very well aware that SMEs generally are disadvantaged under our current framework arrangements. As the Minister will know, individuals and micro businesses—usually a small sole trader or somebody of that ilk—fall within the FCA’s regulatory perimeter, but the SMEs that have just been described fall outside of it.

Therefore, where there are gaps or where their treatment is completely inappropriate, they have nowhere to turn. In those circumstances, they face significant disadvantage compared to their competitors across the globe. So I hope the Minister will understand that this is a reflection—I think “tip of an iceberg” was the correct term—of something that is quite systemic in many different ways, and an area where the Treasury, and the regulators, need to focus attention.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, as I set out previously in Grand Committee, I commend my noble friend Lord Attlee for his strong role in supporting Ukraine and bringing the value of his expertise in support of efforts to provide Ukraine with vital supplies. I understand that my noble friend wishes to ensure that the money laundering regulations do not hamper the private export of armoured vehicles or military vehicles to Ukraine. However, this cannot come at the expense of weakening the regulations in a way that would allow them to be circumvented by those wishing to launder money or finance terrorism.

The Government are committed to providing economic, humanitarian and military support to Ukraine. That is why the UK is proud to have pledged £6.5 billion in support of Ukraine, including £1 billion of World Bank guarantees to go towards closing Ukraine’s 2023 financing gap and £2.3 billion in military support for 2023. In 2022, 195 standard individual export licences and three open individual export licences were granted for the export of military items to Ukraine.

I recognise that my noble friend has concerns about a wider issue relating to provision of banking services to those involved in the defence industry and the refusal or withdrawal of services for other reasons connected with money laundering or ethical concerns. As I said in Committee, I am not aware that banks are taking a blanket approach to such customers. I am grateful to my noble friend for setting out some further specific cases today and I am glad that he had the opportunity to meet my noble friend the Defence Minister. The Treasury would be happy to look further into these cases with my noble friend and the Ministry of Defence. Equally, if the defence industry has wider concerns, I would encourage it to bring them to the attention of the Government and the regulators.

My noble friend made a comment on the Government’s ESG policy and its impact on defence companies. Our ESG policy is focused on delivering the net-zero commitment and there is nothing in that policy framework that prohibits or otherwise disadvantages defence companies and the war in Ukraine—

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[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, during my research into the money laundering problems identified in the previous group, I identified another problem for SMEs: the availability of performance bonds from the financial markets to cover stage payments in capital projects. I do not need to explain to your Lordships what stage payments are or how bonds work, and it is certainly something that I do not have any expertise in. The difficulties are that the banks require so much collateral that the system is intractable. It is not a problem for large firms with correspondingly large balance sheets; this problem affects only SMEs and tends to keep them small. I talked to a manufacturer of hovercraft, and if all their current enquiries came to fruition, they would simply not be able to secure the necessary bonds to finance the work. I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, this is an issue that I have raised in the House before, having run into the same set of issues—I suspect with some of the same companies down in the West Country involved particularly in large-scale exports which require performance bonds to be able to meet their contractual obligations. In these instances, performance bonds were denied by the banks unless the collateral included the homes and personal possessions of the directors and senior managers of the company. This was despite the fact that the firms had long-standing records of being able to deliver on the projects they engaged in and indeed the customers at the far end had reputations, again, of being excellent payers.

It is a real weakness in the system that we have no one who deals with market gaps, particularly when it applies to SMEs. I attribute part of this to the regulatory perimeter, but regardless of where the fault lies, there needs to be a remedy if we are to build a future economy which will be based very largely on SMEs and, hopefully, very significantly on exports.

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the importance of ensuring that SMEs are able to access appropriate financial products, including performance bonds, and of ensuring the availability of useful information on such products. As noble Lords are aware, performance bonds are a type of financing product that provides a financial guarantee to one party in a contract in the event of the failure of the other party to fulfil its obligations.

More broadly, SMEs already benefit from a diverse financial market, made up of high-street banks, smaller banks and a range of non-banks, to ensure they can continue to access suitable finance. The Government support SMEs’ access to finance through a variety of debt and equity finance programmes through the British Business Bank. These programmes were supporting more than £12 billion of finance to more than 94,000 smaller businesses as of June 2022.

The British Business Bank also produces several reports on access to finance on an annual basis, including the Small Business Finance Markets report, providing expert and independent assessment of the availability and options within the wider funding landscape for SMEs. Fundamentally, the commercial terms that banks and insurers offer, including the collateral they require for performance bonds, are a matter for the firms, subject to meeting the relevant regulatory requirements.

The Government remain committed to maintaining the highest international standards of regulation, and the Financial Services Act 2021 granted the PRA the powers to implement the latest international standards, known as Basel III.1. These include revised capital requirements for performance bonds for banks. The PRA recently consulted on its proposals and specifically requested comments and data from firms and wider stakeholders on its proposals for capital requirements for products such as performance bonds, and it will be considering feedback provided by respondents in formulating its final proposals. For insurers providing performance bonds, the Government are reforming one of the capital requirements, the risk margin, removing a barrier to lower product pricing.

As noble Lords are aware, under the provisions in the Bill, our independent regulators will take on new responsibilities. This means that the PRA will take on responsibility for setting the relevant regulatory requirements that are currently set through retained EU law, acting within the framework set by the Government and Parliament.

As we have discussed a number of times in relation to the Bill, when making rules designed to ensure the safety and soundness of financial services firms it is also important to consider how those firms can support the wider UK economy. That is why the Government have introduced the new secondary growth and competitiveness objectives, which will require the regulators to act to facilitate the competitiveness of the UK economy and its growth in the medium to long term. The PRA’s current consultation has been undertaken before the provisions in the Bill will come into effect. However, the Financial Services Act 2021 requires the PRA to “have regard” to the Government’s economic policy, including investment in SMEs and infrastructure, as well as the effect of its requirements on the UK’s international standing and the provision of finance to businesses and consumers in the United Kingdom on a sustainable basis.

Measures in the Bill also allow for parliamentary scrutiny of the regulators’ performance, including how they have advanced their new secondary competitiveness and growth objective. In addition, the Bill requires the regulators to produce statements of policy on how they will review their rules. Recent government amendments will require these statements to include information on how stakeholders can make representations to review rules, and on the arrangements for ensuring that these representations are considered.

In conclusion, the Government are committed to ensuring that SMEs have access to suitable financial products which are subject to suitable prudential safeguards to appropriately manage any risks. This is particularly important to ensure that UK SMEs are accessing finance to support their goals and contribute to the UK’s growth agenda. I therefore ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

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[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I too apologise to the House for being late.

I have added my name to my noble friend’s amendment. I urge my noble friend the Minister and the House to think very carefully about what possible advantages there could be relative to the disadvantages of having a central bank digital currency. We have seen so many people lose so much money, and so many money launderers, thieves and so on make so much money from digital currencies. This may be one of the biggest scams of the century.

It is very difficult to see why we need digital currencies at all. The risks for money laundering and economic crime, the lack of transparency and security for anyone putting money in, and the opportunity that this would offer to rogue states and actors to try to undermine our entire financial system require significant warning. The possibility that this could be introduced without primary legislation seems to me to be unconscionable and a dereliction of our duty to make sure that we are looking after the currency of this country.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I had the privilege of serving on the Economic Affairs Committee, with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, as chair, when it produced the report. Your Lordships will gather that my views on whether we adopt a digital currency are distinctive somewhat from others who have spoken today. It is not that I am some enthusiast for it; I recognise all the issues and disadvantages that have been named today, particularly financial stability and privacy. However, 18 countries will be adopting a central bank digital currency this year—including China, initially for its domestic market. It has been piloting it in 12 cities, but eventually it will become an offering that it takes to the many other countries where it expects to exercise influence, in both Asia and Africa.

I am afraid that we are facing potentially a King Canute situation: we may not particularly want such a currency but might simply have to accept that to remain in the forefront and in play within financial services and as a major exporter and participant in global trade, we may have no choice but to go down this route. But I absolutely share with every other speaker the view that this should be determined by Parliament in primary legislation. The issues are sufficiently fundamental and far-reaching. They carry risk, and they require judgment and perspective—and it is in debates in the other place and here that that can happen.

It seems to me that something so fundamental as currency surely is the responsibility of a democratic Parliament. It cannot be transferred, in effect, to either the Treasury to run through an SI, or to the regulators to not even bother with an SI but largely to put it in place through various regulatory changes. So, here we have absolute common ground; this should be on the face of the Bill. I am concerned that this may be the last piece of legislation coming forward where we have the opportunity to put it in the Bill. There might be a further opportunity in a year’s time, but it depends on the speed of change that we experience.

Guarantees from the Government would be good. I am glad that a letter has been written to Harriett Baldwin and the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, but we need something that recognises the significance and importance of doing this through primary legislation.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, we welcome the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, which has enabled this short and informative debate on the process for establishing a central bank digital currency. As technology develops and people’s habits change, it is vital that we keep pace. Therefore, the principle of a digital pound has much to commend it, although the arguments, implications and details clearly need to be properly worked through. The introduction of a digital pound would represent a significant step, and it is therefore right for the noble Lords, Lord Forsyth and Lord Bridges, to ask about the underlying processes, though it is a novel experience for the two noble Lords to be asking for commitments from this side of the House.

We very much welcome the clarification offered by the Chancellor in his letter to the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, and the Economic Affairs Committee that there would be primary legislation before a digital pound could be launched. We agree that this is an important safeguard.

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At the very least, I hope the Minister can see the merits of adopting this review and promoting the idea that there are important reasons why the long-term investments of our domestic pension funds, which had been the jewel in the crown of our financial system for many years, should be directed to work to the benefit of the economy and the pension scheme members themselves.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I speak from these Benches on behalf of my party, as a group of realists. The current Government, and any future Government, look at the pools of money in pension funds, whether defined contribution or defined benefit, and see them as a tempting source of investment in the area of scale up and infrastructure, where we are desperate to find additional investment. I point out that pension funds are not disadvantaged in investing in investment-grade assets in any way. It is in investing in sub-investment grade assets where they carry a burden under the current arrangements.

These investments in scale up and infrastructure are, by definition, high risk and illiquid, and we have to face up to that. Some 40% of scale-ups fail and infrastructure projects run notoriously late, and well over budget. I challenge people to come up with a very long list of infrastructure projects that have come in on time and on budget. It is hard to identify virtually any project that meets that test. It means that pension obligations must be fully protected if we are to open up these funds to be able to invest in a far more illiquid and high-risk way.

That is why I am comfortable with this amendment, because proposed new subsection (2) insists:

“The review must consider how best to do this while protecting the safeness and soundness of pension funds”.


I was also pleased that the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, introduced the additional consultee identified by my noble friend Baroness Bowles—the Pension Protection Fund—in this process, because that is clearly a mechanism which could provide the kind of protection for pensioners who may be exposed if we change the risk profile of pension fund investment.

I insist that the first responsibility of a pension fund is to pay out its obligations on time and in full. I suspect that everyone who is invested in a pension believes that that is, and must continue to be, true. Often when we discuss these issues the Canadian pensions funds are cited because they do indeed invest in illiquid and high-risk assets, but anyone reading the credit rating agencies discussing those pension funds will find that the pension funds are pretty much backstopped by the Canadian Government.

What I hope will come out of this review process are new opportunities to fund our economic growth but also protections commensurate—it may not be the same strategy but through some mechanism—with those that the Canadians have put in place, to make sure that our pensioners will still be paid on time and in full. If that no longer remains true, we end up in a very serious pickle but, having read through this set of amendments, I think they get us to the right place to be able to achieve that.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government welcome the further discussions that this debate has given us the opportunity to have on the issue of unlocking pensions capital for long-term, productive investment where it is in the best interests of pension scheme members. Indeed, as I set out in Committee, the Government have a wide range of work under way to deliver the objectives set out by this review. While I was a little disappointed not to hear those initiatives referenced in this debate—apart from, perhaps, by my noble friend Lady Altmann—I will give it another go and set out for the House the work that is already under way in this area.

As previously set out, high-growth sectors developing cutting-edge technologies need access to finance to start, scale and stay in the UK. The Government are clear that unlocking pension fund investment into the UK’s most innovative firms will help develop the next generation of globally competitive companies in the UK.

The Chancellor set out a number of initial measures in the Budget to signal a clear ambition in this area. These included: increasing support for the UK’s most innovative companies by extending the British Patient Capital programme by a further 10 years until 2033-34 and increasing its focus on R&D-intensive industries, providing at least £3 billion in investment in the UK’s key high-growth sectors, including life sciences, green industries and deep tech; spurring the creation of new vehicles for investment into science and tech companies, tailored to the needs of UK defined contribution pension schemes, by inviting industry to provide feedback on the design of a new long-term investment for technology and science initiative—noble Lords may have seen that the Government launched the LIFTS call for evidence on 26 May; and leading by example by pursuing accelerated transfer of the £364 billion Local Government Pension Scheme assets into pools to support increased investment in innovative companies and other productive assets. The Government will come forward shortly with a consultation on this issue that will challenge the Local Government Pension Scheme in England and Wales to move further and faster on consolidating assets.

At Budget, the Chancellor committed the Government to undertaking further work with industry and regulators to bring forward an ambitious package of measures in the autumn. I reassure the noble Baroness opposite that this package aims to incentivise pension funds to invest in high-growth firms, and the Government will, of course, seek to ensure that the safety and soundness of pension funds are protected in taking this work forward, as in proposed new subsection (2). Savers’ interests will be central to any future government measures, as they have been to past ones. The Government want to see higher returns for pension holders in the context of strong regulatory safeguards.

In addition, the Government are already working with a wide range of interested stakeholders, including the DWP, the DBT, the Pensions Regulator, the FCA, the PRA and the Pension Protection Fund, as well as pension trustees and relevant financial services stake- holders. Proposed new subsection (3) in the amendment seeks to set out this list in legislation. I reassure the House that this is not necessary as the Treasury is actively engaging with them already, as appropriate. The Government would also be happy to engage with other interested stakeholders, as raised by my noble friend Lord Naseby and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton.

I note the specific areas of review outlined in subsection (4) of the proposed new clause, and I reassure noble Lords that the Government are considering all these issues as part of their work. In particular, proposed new subsection (4)(a) references the existing value-for-money framework. As I set out in Grand Committee, one area of focus for the Government’s work in this area is consolidation. To accelerate this, the Government have been working with the Financial Conduct Authority and the Pensions Regulator on a proposed new value-for-money framework setting required metrics and standards in key areas such as investment performance, costs and charges, and the quality of service that schemes must meet.

As part of this new framework, if these metrics and standards were not met, the Department for Work and Pensions has proposed giving the Pensions Regulator powers to take direct action to wind up consistently underperforming schemes. A consultation took place earlier this year, and the Government plan to set out next steps before the summer.

Turning to proposed new subsection (4)(b), I have already set out the forthcoming consultation to support increased investment in innovative companies and other productive assets by the Local Government Pension Scheme. Noble Lords may also be aware that the levelling up White Paper in 2022 included a commitment to invest 5% in levelling up. This consultation will go into more detail on how that will be implemented.

I turn to proposed new subsection (4)(c). The Government are committed to delivering high-quality infrastructure to boost growth across the country. We heard references in the debate to the UK Infrastructure Bank, which we will work with. The Treasury has provided it with £22 billion of capital. Since its establishment in 2021, it has done 15 deals, invested £1.4 billion and unlocked more than £6 billion in private capital. Furthermore, we have published our green finance strategy and Powering Up Britain, setting out the mechanisms by which the Government are mobilising private investment in the UK green economy and green infrastructure.

The Government wholeheartedly share the ambition of the amendment to see more pension schemes investing effectively in the UK’s high-growth companies for the benefit of the economy and pension savers. We agree with noble Lords on the importance of this issue. Where we disagree with noble Lords is on how crucial this amendment is to delivering it. Indeed, the Government are currently developing policies to meet these objectives, so legislating a review would pre-empt the outcome and might delay the speed at which the Government can make the changes necessary to incentivise investment in high-growth companies. Therefore, given all the work under way, I hope the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.

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Moved by

[Baroness Kramer]

106: After Clause 71, insert the following new Clause—
“Protection of banking reform: ring-fencing and SMCR
(1) Parts 1 (ring-fencing) and 4 (conduct of persons working in financial services sector) of the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013 and amendments made by them to FSMA 2000 may not be modified or revoked except by an Act of Parliament.(2) No change or revocation may be made by secondary legislation, including by the PRA and FCA, to—(a) the requirements for ring-fenced bodies, and(b) the senior managers and certification regime, or other rules for the conduct of persons working in the financial services sector,that departs from the principles set out in the final report of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards.(3) For the avoidance of doubt, subsection (2) includes secondary legislation that would allow ring-fenced bodies permanently to carry out excluded activities.(4) This section may not be amended except by an Act of Parliament.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would prevent the Government from making substantive changes to the policy on ring-fencing and SMCR by statutory instrument, and would prevent policy from being amended in a way that departs from the report from the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, in Committee the Minister reassured the House that the principles of ring-fencing and the senior managers regime which protect our banking system could be changed only by primary legislation. Then came the Silicon Valley Bank UK crisis and we discovered that breaking down the ring-fence in particular can be done by simply using statutory instruments and without the full engagement of Parliament. My Amendment 106, which is written from the two tabled in Committee, is intended to reassert the fundamental principle that change has to be driven by primary legislation and it removes the loophole which we experienced with Silicon Valley Bank.

I shall explain very briefly the Silicon Valley Bank issue. As part of their agreement with HSBC to acquire SVB UK, the Government permitted HSBC to transfer funds from its ring-fenced retail bank into SVB UK, which is outside the ring-fence. The transferred funds can now be used for activities which the HSBC retail bank would be prohibited from, including high-risk and speculative transactions.

If this was a temporary state of affairs, I could understand this awkward response to an emergency, but on Thursday the Minister will bring a statutory instrument to this House to make that breach of the ring-fence for HSBC permanent and notably with no limits on the amount of funds that can be transferred from ring-fenced to unring-fenced. Unless I misunderstand the SI, there are no conditions on the use of those funds, even though last month the Minister seemed to imply that we could expect conditions or limits. In effect, the ring-fence is now fully breached for HSBC. Its rival banks, not surprisingly, expect further government action soon to give them exemptions in order to level the playing field. We have in effect destroyed the ring- fence.

Ring-fencing and the SMCR, I would argue, are vital protections against another 2007 banking crisis. They limit the incentives and mechanisms for banks to mingle the culture and capital behind retail banking with the very different and high-risk world of investment banking, with the SMCR establishing individual responsibility for bad or abusive management. The Government have posited in discussion that these protections can be safely weakened because banks now have resolution plans to protect the taxpayer from a bank failure. But that presumption, frankly, has been blown out of the water. Both the Swiss and the US regulators in the last few months facing bank failures—one Credit Suisse and the other the three regional banks in the US—decided that, in the circumstances, resolution would be far more damaging to their economies than seeking taxpayer support to extract those banks from their predicaments and failure.

We have had an illustration that makes it clear that the resolution plans that we have in place for banks may work in certain limited circumstances but very often, particularly when there is high risk in the economy, may indeed not work and are more damaging to use than to discard. In that situation, it is absolutely crucial that we return to the protections provided by ring-fencing and the SMCR.

That is my view. If the Government disagree with me and believe this is time for weakening the ring-fence or diluting the SMCR, I argue they have to come to Parliament and do it under primary legislation, not through the backdoor that we experienced over the last couple of months through the mechanism of the purchase agreement for Silicon Valley Bank UK.

I am not asking this House to make the decision on whether we keep ring-fencing or the SMCR. What I am saying is that it is this House and the other place that need to actively understand and make the determination if that change is to happen. It is fundamental to the financial stability of our country and therefore that is the way this issue would be addressed. My Amendment 106 combines into one the two amendments from Committee and adds a clause to require primary legislation for any permanent exclusions from ring-fencing rules, closing the loophole used by the Government and reasserting the original intent of the law. I beg to move.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, it has been over 10 years since the Independent Commission on Banking recommended important structural changes, including the introduction of ring-fencing for the largest UK banks, and the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards recommended the introduction of the senior managers and certification regime, or SMCR, to embed a culture of greater accountability and personal responsibility in banking. I pay tribute to the important work of these commissions and their lasting legacy in improving the safety and soundness of the UK’s financial system. Amendment 106 from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, covers the ring-fencing and SMCR reforms.

In response to my noble friend Lord Trenchard, the legislation that introduced the ring-fencing regime required the Treasury to appoint an independent panel to review the regime after it had been in operation for two years. That independent review was chaired by Sir Keith Skeoch and concluded in March 2022. The review noted that the financial regulatory landscape has changed significantly since the last financial crisis. UK banks are much better capitalised and a bank resolution regime has been introduced to ensure that bank failures can in future be managed in an orderly way, minimising risks to depositors and public funds.

In the light of these considerations, the independent review concluded that changes could be made in the short term to improve the functionality of the ring-fencing regime while maintaining financial stability safeguards. In December, as part of the Edinburgh reforms, the Chancellor announced a series of changes to the ring-fencing regime that broadly follow the recommendations made by the independent review. The Treasury will consult later this year on those near-term reforms. The panel also recommended that, over the longer term, the Government should review the practicalities of aligning the ring-fencing and resolution regimes. In response, the Government published a call for evidence in March. This closed at the beginning of May and the Government are in the process of considering responses.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and other noble Lords referenced the resolution of Silicon Valley Bank UK, which was sold to HSBC on Monday 13 March. The Government and the Bank of England acted swiftly to facilitate the sale of SVB UK to HSBC after determining that action was necessary to protect depositors and taxpayers and to ensure that the UK’s world-leading tech sector could continue to thrive. To facilitate the sale, the Government made modifications to the ring-fencing regime that apply to HSBC only in relation to its acquisition of SVB UK.

It is critical that the Government have the necessary powers to act decisively to protect financial stability, depositors and taxpayers. The power under the Banking Act 2009 enables the Treasury to amend the law in resolution scenarios. Parliament gave the Treasury this power recognising the exceptional circumstances that can arise. However, I say to the noble Baroness that the changes made to the ring-fencing requirements are specifically in relation to the acquisition of SVB UK and should not be viewed as an indication of the future direction of government policy on ring-fencing. The Chancellor has been clear that, in taking any reforms forward, the Government will learn lessons from the crisis and will not undermine financial stability.

The core features of ring-fencing are set out in primary legislation, which generally may be amended only by primary legislation, so the Government are already constrained in one of the ways that this amendment seeks to ensure. In passing that legislation, Parliament delegated certain detailed elements of the regime to the Government to deliver through secondary legislation, given its technical nature and to allow it to evolve over time, where appropriate. Parliament also included clear statutory tests and objectives within the framework, which the Treasury and the PRA must satisfy when making changes to the regime. These statutory tests continue to reflect the underlying objectives and purposes of the regime. The Government are of the view that they remain appropriate and that no further constraints are necessary.

Turning to the SMCR, I can confirm to the House once more that the framework of the SMCR is set out in primary legislation, so it is already the case that significant amendments can be made only via primary legislation.

Let me also reassure the House that the Government continue to recognise the contribution of the SMCR in helping to drive improvements in culture and standards. The principles of accountability, clarity and senior responsibility that are emphasised by the PCBS report were reflected in the SMCR. We should take confidence from the findings of separate reports by UK Finance and the PRA, which both show that these principles are now more widely embedded in financial services than before the introduction of the regime.

The Economic Secretary made it clear to the Treasury Select Committee on 10 January that the purpose of the review was to seek views on the most effective ways in which the regime can deliver its core objectives. It is important to review significant regulation from time to time to ensure that rules remain relevant, effective in meeting their aims and proportionate to those aims. The Government are grateful to those who have submitted responses to the SMCR call for evidence. This information will help the Government, alongside the regulators, build a proper evidence base for identifying what, if any, reforms to the regime should be taken forward.

I hope that I have sufficiently reassured noble Lords that the Government remain committed to high standards of regulation, and to the important reforms introduced following the global financial crisis. Therefore, I ask the noble Lady, Baroness Kramer, to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I thank the Minister, but she has essentially repeated the speech she gave in Committee. At the time, I took her assurances at face value that primary legislation would be necessary to make a fundamental change to the structure of the ring-fence. I was therefore frankly shocked when, within a matter of days, the Government took a different point of view in the acquisition of Silicon Valley Bank UK by HSBC. There is no reason why HSBC should have used its ring-fenced arm to make the purchase of SVB; it chose to do so because it got, as a consequence, this opportunity to take that ring-fenced money and put in into non-ring-fenced activities, with no constraints whatever in terms of amount or activity.

The Government are bringing forward another statutory instrument to make that change permanent for HSBC. It is unconscionable that our largest bank should have a competitive advantage like that and other banks not be given it. I am extremely concerned about the way in which statutory instruments are being used to undermine the principle that changing the principles should be only by primary legislation. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 19th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her kind words as she introduced this Third Reading. The Bill leaves the House in a much better condition than when it arrived. We have made changes to the Bill on the treatment of politically exposed people, financial inclusion and the FCA’s accountability to Parliament, and through measures that help to protect the environment. I thank all Members of the House who contributed to our consideration of the Bill, from both sides, and from the Liberal Democrats and Cross Benches, especially those from Peers for the Planet. I also thank the doorkeepers and House staff teams, and everyone who enables us to do our work.

I thank the Minister for her open and welcoming approach to our discussions. I particularly thank my noble friend Lord Livermore for doing more than his fair share of the work from Report onwards, and of course my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe who led the Labour Party—he did not lead the Labour Party but led for the Labour Party; that was quite a thought experiment—throughout the long Committee stage. His advice and support have been invaluable. Lastly, I thank the outstanding Dan Stevens for his impeccable advice, preparedness and thoughtfulness.

We hope that the Government accept the Bill as amended and do not feel the need to bring it back to the House for further amendments.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I join in the thanks to the Minister, who has been very generous with her time, as has the Bill team, and who provided us with explanations and listened to our issues and concerns. I also give particular thanks to my noble friends Lord Sharkey and Lady Bowles on my Benches, who bring extraordinary expertise and analysis to all these issues. They covered for me while I was recovering from surgery, and I very much appreciate their willingness to pick up and carry that burden.

I join in the good words about the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. He has been an absolute stalwart on this entire portfolio. He is phenomenal in dealing with statutory instruments especially—an area that most of us avoid. I will miss the opportunity to be with him on these Benches, as it were, when these issues come forward again. He might have made a very good leader of the Labour Party, I should say. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, for the final stages and their close working. The Cross Benches have been quite exceptional on this Bill, as, frankly, have some on the Back Benches of the Conservative Party. It has been an excellent example of cross-party working in the interests of better governance.

A striking feature of the Bill has been that common concern, particularly focused on the issues of parliamentary scrutiny and the accountability of regulators to Parliament. There have been modest steps to improve the Bill on those issues, but there is a great deal more to be done. I remain concerned, as do my Benches, about the risk being injected back into the financial services sector, but again, that is business for another day. We hope that the Bill will go through unamended in the other House. The improvements that come particularly from Peers for the Planet and from those involved in financial inclusion have been important. Again, my thanks to the attendants and the others who have supported us so well throughout this entire process.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

I join in the gratitude expressed to the Minister, who has been her usual courteous and committed self in discussing the considerable amendments that were needed to this Bill, bringing through something far better than we had at the start of the process. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Wheatcroft and Lady Boycott, were all highly involved in the process. Like others, I believe we made some important changes in terms of forest risk and making certain that nature as well as climate are involved in this Bill. My only plea, the Minister will not be surprised to hear, is that I hope very much that when the Bill is considered in the other place, those amendments hold and we do not have to have the argument all over again in this House.