Ukraine Update

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I say again to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, how much I appreciate the tone of their contributions. As I have observed before, it is extremely important that the tremendous contribution coming from the United Kingdom to support Ukraine is seen externally as an absolutely united endeavour. I express my appreciation to both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness.

The noble Lord asked what further assistance is coming from the UK. The Statement that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State gave to the Commons on Monday detailed a lot of the information that your Lordships wanted. I observe that, as your Lordships are aware, there has been very close engagement between the United Kingdom and Ukraine. I understand that there are conversations in some form or another almost on a daily basis, as we listen to what Ukraine wants, what it needs and how we as a country can, either bilaterally or in concert with our allies and partners, try to provide that.

It was interesting that, yesterday, at the meeting in Germany, the Secretary of State met US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, Ukraine Defence Minister Reznikov, and representatives from nearly 40 other countries to collectively discuss Ukraine’s military needs. Our allies thanked the UK for its leadership in securing key military assistance to date. All countries agreed to continue discussions on an enduring basis. This goes some way towards explaining how we approach this. We can do a lot bilaterally but I think the real impact is from what we do in concert. I wish to reassure your Lordships that that is at the forefront for NATO member states.

In relation to what further equipment we are giving, the Secretary of State, when he made his Statement, was asked about the Brimstone missile. He mentioned that we had, in 2020-21, agreed in principle to develop and sell a maritime variant of the Brimstone missile. Ukraine recently asked for a longer-range ground attack missile, and the Government have been exploring if existing stocks of Brimstone could be released for such purposes. At the time of my right honourable friend’s Statement, we thought that some time might be required to realise that aim—the request from Ukraine—and that that would then give the Defence Secretary an opportunity to return to update the House on sending Ukraine this new capability. I am pleased to say that our technical staff—here I wish to pay tribute to the tremendous calibre of expertise within the MoD, which has absolutely been on display in stellar form in our response to the situation in Ukraine—have had quicker successes adapting and providing the system. Instead of a further Oral Statement before Prorogation, I can inform the House that the UK will now provide Ukraine with Brimstone missiles. We will update the House on future developments and, in the meantime, we will continue to provide briefings. Obviously, Prorogation intervenes, but as Defence Minister in this House I will endeavour to keep Members up to date with developments.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, also raised the issue of Sweden and Finland. Although not members of NATO currently, these are very important partner states of NATO and valued friends of the United Kingdom. We take their interests very seriously and would wish to support them as friends and allies. In relation to their NATO application, it is obviously their decision how they process that and deal with it. We work closely with them already in the JEF partnership, which, as your Lordships will know, is a very effective alliance of like-minded states operating in the Baltic. There is total interest in these two countries by the United Kingdom and a desire to support them in every way we can.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, made the interesting observation that, in a paradoxical way, Russia has managed to strengthen NATO. That is an astute, perceptive and absolutely accurate analysis. President Putin’s appalling, unjustified and illegal invasion of another sovereign country has seen the reasons he adduced for this, and the very threat he said he was frightened of, fortify and intensify before his very eyes. Of course, it was never a threat, because NATO is a defensive alliance, but he has seen the potency of what happens when leaders of countries, and countries themselves, appalled at what someone else does, band together. They want to offer support and do the right thing, and that is what we have seen very much in evidence in the response to the situation Ukraine.

An important point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, about whether there is a threat that Russia may seek out targets in the West. We have been clear from the beginning that we would be consistent in supporting Ukraine. It is not a NATO member but it is a friend of the United Kingdom. We had already been involved, for several years, in helping, training and providing advice to Ukraine. Quite simply, the UK and our allies and partners are providing the tools for it to defend itself against a brutal and unjustified Russian invasion. Once weapons have been donated, their use is a matter for Ukraine, which has a right to defend itself by targeting legitimate military objectives. That is the business of Ukraine in defending itself against a completely illegal invasion and is a necessary response. That is why countries such as the United Kingdom, together with our international partners—not least our NATO partners—have been as one in responding to this. I think that has given President Putin cause for thought.

I was also asked about the logistical support that the United Kingdom is able to provide. It was a very welcome outcome of the second international donor conference—which took place on 31 March this year and was attended by 35 international partners—that we have offered to conduct logistics operations to support the delivery of donations from partner nations. That is very important support that the UK is providing, and it is received very positively by our partners.

A question was also raised about the discussions taking place in NATO. As I said earlier, the whole raison d’être of the meeting in Germany yesterday was to ensure that the critical discussions being prosecuted by the Defence Ministers of the member states were focused on both what we need to do at the moment in responding to the challenge in Ukraine and what the posture should be for the future. These are under very active consideration and are important questions to ask.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, raised the matter of the Foreign Secretary’s statement and her view about warplanes going to Ukraine. I can say that we are working with our allies to ensure that Ukraine has what it needs to defend itself. I cannot comment on specifics, but we and many other western partners are now providing longer-range weapons systems to help counter the indiscriminate artillery fire that the Russian armed forces have been raining down on besieged Ukrainian cities. As I said earlier, the UK is taking a leading role in co-ordinating the delivery of military aid. It is important that we continue to listen to Ukraine and assess what stage the conflict has got to and what is needed to facilitate the response, and work with our allies to both analyse and reflect on what is needed and then deliver that.

On the matter of budget, as your Lordships will be aware, and as I have frequently observed from this Dispatch Box, the UK has a very good record of contributing to NATO. We have consistently met our 2% of GDP, and sometimes we have been above that. We are the most important contributor to NATO in Europe. That is a significant position, which we seek to maintain. In so far as our indigenous defence budget is concerned, we have had what I think has been universally regarded as a very good settlement from the spending review; it certainly enables us to fund the immediate needs and our planned priorities. But of course, as we look to the medium and longer term, we shall constantly do that through the optics of what we think we need and the resource package that may be required.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised the matter of humanitarian aid. I have indicated what we have been doing on the military front, and I have a summary here of our role in lethal and non-lethal military support. We have gifted approximately £200 million in aid to Ukraine, which we propose will grow to £500 million. On humanitarian aid, we have supported about £400 million, including £220 million which will be used to save lives and protect people inside the country and the wider region, and £174 million in economic support to bolster the Ukrainian economy and reduce Ukraine’s reliance on Russian gas imports. We have also contributed £25 million from the Conflict, Security and Stability Fund to support the payment of salaries for the Ukrainian armed forces.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised the matter of the situation Russia finds itself in. It is important to reflect on the reality of what has unfolded on the ground and what President Putin’s projected plan was—quite simply, the two have not matched up. What he thought would be a simple and short-lived incursion into Ukraine has been anything but. Such information as we have been able to secure—which is difficult to do—is very interesting. There is a now deleted post on Russian social media site VK from pro-Kremlin media outlet Readovka which claimed on 22 April 2022 that Russia’s defence ministry stated at a closed briefing that it had lost 13,414 soldiers in Ukraine, plus another 7,000 missing, and 116 were reportedly killed aboard the Russian cruiser “Moskva”, with 100-plus still missing.

All that is a reflection of two things: the extent to which this is proving to be a very bitter conflict for Russia, and—almost more importantly—it is a most appalling waste of lives, many of them young lives, and an appalling legacy of President Putin to leave families in Russia grieving lost family members and friends, who have faced such an appalling prospect in being committed to this barbaric incursion into Ukraine. That indicates that the situation for Russia is much grimmer than President Putin would ever wish to concede.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked, how long we will keep this going. We will provide support for as long as it takes. There will be and are conversations with the EU. We look at Moldova very carefully, and it is something we consider with our allies and partners.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, today I was on a call with the Ukrainian Culture Minister, who was describing how the Russians had been systematically trying to destroy cultural assets and had been taking and burning books in the places they took over. They are actively destroying that whole Ukrainian heritage. In her response, the Minister has pointed out the danger to civilians there, many of them women and children. Hundreds, it seems, are still waiting for their visas and permission to travel under the Homes for Ukraine scheme. In many of these families, one family member has not had permission to travel but others have. I do not expect the Minister to be able to answer that point specifically today because it is outside her remit, but I ask her to make representations to our Home Secretary and to the Minister for Refugees that the situation is intolerable and must be rectified urgently. The number of people queuing today at the hub in Portcullis House wanting to raise individual cases that they have been contacted about was testament to the fact that we are not managing our promise to provide shelter to these refugees with the intention originally laid out in the Statement.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, who raises an important issue which resonates across the House. The information I have is that as of 20 April 2022, the UK visa schemes have issued 71,800 visas via the family and sponsorship schemes. I appreciate that many will regard that pace as too slow. The noble Baroness has clearly described the frustration and anxiety of those who feel they are not getting the response they seek. I certainly undertake to relay her concerns to my colleague in the Home Office. I suggest that a correspondence be entered into between the Home Office and the noble Baroness.

[Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)]

My Lords, may I ask the Minister about the very sad situation with Ukrainian casualties, both military and civil? Our medical teams during the Afghan situation developed very specialised skills in this area post-conflict. The Statement refers to our sending 10 pallets of medical equipment. Has Britain offered any more help on the medical side? Has there been any offer of our willingness to bring Ukrainian military casualties to this country or to send more medical teams to Ukraine to help with the pretty ghastly situation on the ground there?

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[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Part of the humanitarian assistance to date has included granting in kind to the Ukraine Armed Forces medical equipment from the MoD’s supplies. This includes items for combat medical needs, field dressings, bandages, tourniquets, splints and chest seals. I understand that the possibility of our offering more assistance from the UK end is being looked at. I do not have any further information on that, but I undertake to make inquiries and report to the noble Lord.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I offer my support for everything the Ministry of Defence, the Secretary of State and other government departments are doing. Is the Minister aware of one difficulty: the paucity of briefing that we are receiving? This means that we will know what the media want us to know, but not what Ministers and officials need to tell us and can tell us. This is important, because without these briefings we cannot speak with authority outside the House and be more effective in supporting the policy, while not ignoring our constitutional duties.

Does the Minister also agree that it is premature to consider our defence expenditure at this point without knowing what the outcome of the conflict will be? On the point about resupply made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, I hope the Minister will be able to state that she will not hesitate to increase the production of defence materiel as required and without any artificial constraints.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

First, I say to my noble friend that I certainly would wish to co-operate in every way I can with providing information and briefing to your Lordships. With the intervention of the Recess and imminent Prorogation, that has logistically proved a little difficult, but I undertake to resume these briefings and hope that provides reassurance to my noble friend.

On the budget, as I said earlier, we constantly review the immediate need and the potentially committed expenditure that we have embarked on. We also look at the medium to longer-term interest. That is what we will be doing, because critical to that—my noble friend is quite right—is what we think the implications are for this sustained and continuing contribution from the UK. Regarding what has been supplied already and what will be supplied, I reassure him that we do not compromise our core reserves—our stores—that we need for our national security and the other global contributions we make. We keep a careful eye on that.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I have three brief questions for the Minister. First, the Statement says:

“The next three weeks are key.”


Will the Minister outline in what way that is meant, given that this war has continued for much longer than we had originally thought it would? Secondly, what is the Government’s current assessment of Russian capability and intention to occupy the whole of the south coast of Ukraine, thus creating the possibility of a landlocked Ukraine state? Thirdly, in respect of the impressive range of equipment that is outlined in this Statement, do the Government have any concerns about the West’s ability to get it through to the Ukrainians who are going to use it? As I understand it, Russia has begun to target things like railway lines, which might well be the means by which this equipment is transferred from the West to the Ukrainians, who are fighting so bravely.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I think that when the Secretary of State referred to the next three weeks, he had in mind what has been a clearly discernible change of approach by the Russian leadership and military. That has involved two things. It has involved a new command structure, which indicates that the previous structure was not working. It also indicates that Russia realises that it is going to have to consolidate its resources and it therefore wants to focus on the eastern part of the country. That is a critical part of the conflict, because it is very clear that Russia is determined—we see it from the activity already taking place in towns and cities within that area—to try to strike this land bridge down through the south-eastern part of the country. That is what the Ukrainians are determined to resist, and it is what the UK—with all our allies and partners—is determined to support Ukraine in repelling.

On the issue of the next three weeks, we all know that President Putin has set his May Day parade day as an iconic, tokenistic opportunity to—no doubt—declare how successful he considers this illegal war has been. That would always raise an expectation that he might be prepared to escalate activity, and therefore there is a critical need to anticipate and respond if that is the case. This is a critical part of the conflict, but I think it is clear from the response in the support for Ukraine that the Ukrainians know that they have a lot of friends, and they now have a lot of really substantial equipment and weaponry to help them in the defence of their country.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB)]

My Lords, I very much welcome the Statement and the support which the Government are giving to Ukraine. I was very grateful to hear the assurance from the Minister that the kinetic capabilities of our own forces are being protected. I hope that industry is rising to the challenge, which it obviously must be facing. One thing which was not mentioned was the impact of economic sanctions on the fighting capability of the Russians. Has any assessment been made of those sanctions as they affect the military capabilities of the Russians, both immediately and in the longer term?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble and gallant Lord has asked an interesting question. There is no question that the broad mechanism of sanctions applied both by individual countries and in concert by united nations is having an impact on Russia. I do not think that there is any question about that. The extent to which that will impact on the Russians’ military endeavour and their capacity to, quite simply, pay salaries or fund equipment or buy new equipment is probably much more difficult to anticipate, but it is a very interesting question. As time passes, we might begin to get a clearer picture of what this means for the Russian military endeavour.

We all understand at the moment that what we are seeing are, quite simply, signs of the failure of that Russian endeavour, because there have been clear indications of failure. Part of that might be down to incompetence and ineptitude on the field, but some of it might be increasingly down to inability to keep supplies coming, logistics flowing and the normal support necessary to sustain armed forces in conflict. It is an interesting point, and I will take it back to the department. If I come across any further information, I shall share it with the noble and gallant Lord.

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

My Lords, it is clear that getting the necessary equipment through to the Ukrainians and dealing with humanitarian help is of the first order. However, I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister a question which is of the second order but is likely to become increasingly important. She will recall that one of the reasons that the totalitarian regimes started to collapse in the late 1980s and early 1990s was because their blood-soaked dictators were unable to keep the truth from their populations. Things have changed in the last few years. There may be censorship in Russia but, with the growth of the digital economy, there simply are not enough secret policemen to monitor the web. Part of the decline of Russia as an economy is that the amount of material out there in Russian has diminished. While the views of what is happening can come through from western sources in English and other European languages, they are not coming through in Russian. Will my noble friend see that the United States and our European allies look at trying to get as much information out there in basic Russian? It is certainly my view that the Russian people are a noble and a great people, and they have a right to know what is the new barbarity being done in their name.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I entirely agree with my noble friend. One of the great frustrations of this whole tragedy has been the stranglehold that President Putin has placed on the dissemination of information in Russia. It is a stranglehold. Outlets have been closed down and criminal law has been invoked to threaten people who share information or appear to be disloyal to the state. My noble friend is correct that trying to reinform the Russian people with the correct version of what is happening is clearly an important and desirable objective. He makes a good point about language. One of the challenges has been not so much the language but just finding a conduit to get the information through. There are some signs that sadly because of these appalling tragedies that have been befalling Russian military personnel, their families now are aware of that. Their families are hurt, sad and in many cases maybe angry and frustrated and not understanding why this has happened and why they have had their own family members sacrificed. There is the possibility that more information will begin to spread through Russia. My noble friend makes an important point and I will certainly bear it in mind.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Smith asked a question at the start that the Minister did not answer. Are the comments of Liz Truss, the Foreign Secretary, on providing fighter jets to Ukraine the official policy of Her Majesty’s Government? If not, why is she making such statements which, in such a sensitive situation, could have very dangerous consequences?

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[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I apologise; I endeavoured to respond to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. The Foreign Secretary has expressed a view and of course is perfectly entitled to have it. My role as a Defence Minister is to explain how we in the MoD are working with our NATO partners and our allies and how we are trying to co-ordinate delivery. At the end of it all, as I said earlier, in conjunction with Ukraine we are trying to work out and supply not just what it needs but to do so when it needs it. Part of that is reflected in the response that I was able to give in explaining to the House that we can now confirm that Brimstone will be provided. That is something that the Ukrainians specifically wanted because of its capacity.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

One of the things that the Ukrainians really do need is the capability to clear up the incredible amount of unexploded ordinance, some of which has been seeded deliberately by the Russians as they remove themselves from around Kyiv. We should be proud of the Halo Trust, which has gone back to Ukraine and has over 40 locally employed people who have been doing that work, even during some of the dreadful violence that has been going on. I know the Government are supporting them. Apart from anything else, the trust needs funding to pay the people who work for it and who do this dangerous, difficult but much-needed work.

The second thing the trust needs is an appreciation by the Ukrainian Government of the importance of certain senior people avoiding national conscription to other jobs. It might be helpful if our Government, in conjunction with the Halo Trust, argued that the Ukrainian Government should allow these key people to this work. They are experts who have been doing it for eight years in that country, in the most dangerous of conditions, supported by this organisation. Can the noble Baroness, perhaps on their behalf, make some of these arguments?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I am indebted to the noble Lord for a perceptive contribution. He is quite right that that has emerged as an issue in the area; indeed, it was referred to in the other place. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State, Ben Wallace, said that we were looking at it to see what we could do to help. I will take those comments back to my department and will see whether we can produce something more positive.

[Lord McDonald of Salford (CB)]

My Lords, we have seen the shortcomings of diplomatic efforts focused on the person of President Putin. We can hope that after his re-election, President Macron will recalibrate. However, contacts with the Russian authorities are important through conflict, so could the Minister please tell your Lordships’ House what the main channel is now for contact between Her Majesty’s Government and Moscow?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

In respect of diplomatic channels, that question is probably better responded to by my noble friend Lord Ahmad. However, it is very difficult to sustain normal diplomatic relations with a country where such appalling things have been happening, at the instigation of that country. There has to be a proper acknowledgement by the UK and other countries that may feel similarly minded that we are appalled by what President Putin is doing, and it is therefore very difficult to maintain a diplomatic relationship. What I would say is that the Russian embassy remains open in London and the UK embassy remains open in Moscow. On a defence level, we endeavour to maintain some kind of dialogue with the Ministry of Defence in Russia because that is for the purposes of risk and escalation management and trying to support broader HMG efforts to ensure an internationally accepted negotiated settlement of the Ukraine conflict. We will continue to make efforts to maintain these communication channels but that is a two-way process, and I have to make it clear that the parameters of that discourse are obviously pretty narrow; they are defence related.

House adjourned at 9.29 pm.