Business of the House
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts(6 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
That Standing Order 40(1) (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Tuesday 30 January to enable the debate on the second reading of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill to begin before oral questions and, in the event of the debate having been adjourned, on Wednesday 31 January to enable the debate to resume before oral questions that day.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the Motion standing in her name. In doing so, I ought to say a brief word about how we intend our business to proceed next week, in particular the Second Reading debate on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. To ensure that the House has sufficient time over the two days to debate the Bill without the risk of an unduly late sitting on either day, the House will sit early on both days. We will sit at 8 am—
Business of the House
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts(6 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
That the debate on the Motion in the name of Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon set down for today shall be limited to three hours and that in the name of Lord Teverson to two hours.
Business of the House
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts(6 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
That the debates on the motions in the names of Lord Best and Baroness Kidron set down for today shall each be limited to 2½ hours.
Independent Complaints and Grievance Policy
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts(6 years, 4 months ago)
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Leader of the House of Commons. The Statement is as follows:
“On 6 November, the Prime Minister convened a meeting of all party leaders, to address reports of bullying, harassment and sexual assault in Parliament. All parties agreed to implement robust procedures to try to change the culture in Parliament, recognising that Parliament can, and must, set a good example.
In her letter to you, Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister made clear the need for a new grievance procedure. A cross-party working group on an independent complaints and grievance policy has been working hard over the last six weeks to consider evidence and draw up recommendations for new procedures. Excellent progress has been made, and during Recess there will be further discussion and consultation within the parties and among the staff bodies in order for a report to be made in the new year.
There are many examples of good employers and professional working practices right across Parliament; we seek to make sure that this is the case for all. The working group, chaired by myself on behalf of the Prime Minister, has been made up of two colleagues from Labour and one each from the SNP, Liberal Democrats, DUP, Plaid Cymru and the Green Party, plus the Leader of the House of Lords and the Convenor of the Cross-Bench Peers from the other place. We also have three staff members on the working party representing MAPSA, Unite and the NUJ. They have led widespread consultation with staff to ensure that staff voices have been loudly heard. We are supported by a secretariat made up of Cabinet Office and parliamentary staff, including the tireless work of Alix Langley, Justine How and Dr Helen Mott—a leading specialist in sexual assault—each of whom deserves our enormous thanks for their dedication.
I am also very aware of the active interest that a number of colleagues from across the House take in this matter. For them, it is a personal campaign to improve the experience of those working here. I thank them for discussing their thoughts and concerns with me, particularly the honourable Members for Birmingham Yardley and Luton South, and my honourable and right honourable friends the Members for Eastleigh and Basingstoke.
The working group has so far met on 11 occasions and has heard from a wide range of experienced professionals, both in person and through written submissions. These include the Speakers of both Houses, Professor Sarah Childs, Rape Crisis, the clerks of both Houses, ACAS, the Parliamentary Commissioners for Standards and the chair of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, Unite, legal experts from the business world and Health Assured. Importantly, the working group has also heard from a number of staff on their views of the culture of Parliament. We are grateful to those who spoke to the group about their experiences or provided anonymous submissions.
The working group identified three guiding principles for this work. First, Parliament requires an independent process, separate from the political channels. Secondly, much evidence was taken that claims of sexual harassment must be dealt with separately from those of bullying and other harassment. Thirdly, structures alone will not change the culture in Parliament. Other steps are also needed—including, crucially, an HR service for the staff employed by Members and an expansion of training provision.
As a result of the work of the group, with the support of the Speaker and the Commission, there are a number of immediate measures that have been put in place to increase the level of support available to staff across the Estate. First, there will be a new, interim provision of HR support and guidance for the staff of Members— beginning after the Recess—while consideration is given to the need for a broader HR service. Appropriate provision that acknowledges the employment circumstances of Peers’ staff will also be put in place. HR support will be accessible to Members’ staff working on the Parliamentary Estate and in constituency offices, and those who are collectively employed by the parties. In addition, new training will be available, addressing the range of needs identified by the working group. This is in addition to the expanded Health Assured helpline, which will be made available to the staff of Members across both Houses and a number of other passholders across the Estate. Mr Speaker, as you yourself requested, the individual political party policies and procedures for dealing with bullying and harassment have been published online and are accessible on the parliamentary website.
A great deal has been achieved, but we also have a programme of work planned into the new year. The working group has clearly identified the need for new policies and procedures to tackle bullying and harassment, including sexual harassment, which should be available to staff and Members across the Estate and which must be independent of the political parties. These proposals are the outcome of substantial evidence taken by the working group, and there is strong support from its members. It is the case, however, that further work, evidence gathering and consultation will be required before we put new processes in place. These processes must attract the full support and confidence of MPs, Peers and staff across Parliament.
Some of the new policies under consideration by the working group include a new behaviour code, to be consulted on, which will apply to all those who work in, or for, Parliament, including Members, Peers, and all staff, wherever they work. This behaviour code would sit alongside the existing parliamentary codes of conduct, which may also require amendment. They also include procurement of a new independent sexual violence advocate specialist service to provide a confidential helpline, and counselling support and advice to those making disclosures. This service would provide support to complainants in cases of sexual assault, including rape. The service would provide support for complainants to pursue a criminal justice route or alternative, strictly confidential support where the claimant does not wish to go to the police. The working group has also taken significant evidence on the need for an independent mediation service to provide a helpline, counselling and investigation into incidents of bullying and intimidation.
Finally, we discussed sanctions. These will of course differ according to the severity of the grievance and for different individuals across the estate. For lower-level complaints the range of possible sanctions could include training covering harassment and bullying, a full apology, as well as review, where appropriate, of the parliamentary pass. In serious cases, further work needs to be carried out to ensure that sanctions are appropriate, fair and enforceable.
The functions of both the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards and the Standards Committee may need to be strengthened and reviewed to ensure fair representation and confidentiality. Considerable further work needs to be carried out before conclusions can be drawn and, of course, any changes to the relevant Standing Orders and to the code of conduct would require decisions by the House.
The working group’s discussions have been underpinned by a persistent theme—that while there are many examples of excellent employers and working relationships, there is a real need to improve the overall workplace culture of Parliament. One of the routes to this is proper independent HR support for Members’ staff to minimise the problem of contractual disputes, as identified as one of our principles. We need to work with the House authorities and staff to consider the best and most appropriate way of delivering this in the long term.
We also received a great deal of evidence on the need for voluntary and mandatory training for the staff and their employers. This would include proper induction courses for staff employed by Members. While this is not within the terms of the working group, it was made clear to us that enabling better support for employer/employee relationships could significantly improve the working atmosphere and engender a more professional culture. The working group will consider the evidence further.
Mr Speaker, we were grateful for your own contribution to the working group, where you made it clear that the House of Commons Commission stands ready to do what it needs to do to respond to any proposal from the working group, providing that the proposal combines independence and transparency. We recognise the need for both swift progress and careful consideration before taking action. Our next steps are therefore crucial. The working group will reconvene after Recess to agree how the work will progress. We will look closely at the policies we have identified as needing further work and consultation and begin to take further evidence and advice. There have been a number of proposals about how to take our work forward. These range from appointing a special bicameral Select Committee to maintaining a Member and staff cross-party committee. We will consider all these ideas carefully, but I make clear that the work of the existing group is ongoing. We will continue to involve staff, Peers and MPs collectively each step of the way. Excellent progress has been made in a short space of time and I express my gratitude for the strong commitment shown by members of the working group and for the expertise provided by our specialist advisers.
Finally, I will say this: this working group was formed to bring about change and I recognise that change is not always easy, particularly somewhere with such long-standing traditions and customs, where we live and work in the full glare of the media spotlight. But this cannot be an excuse. We should not rest until everyone working in Parliament can feel safe, valued and respected. We have a chance now to get this right for everyone on the Parliamentary Estate, including staff, MPs and Peers, and I hope to bring the working group’s final proposals here in the new year”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Newby (LD)
I too thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement, but more significantly for the work she is undertaking, along with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, on the committee. I gather that the group has met 11 times so far and not all the meetings have been short. The members of the group have taken on a very significant commitment and we are very grateful for their work. I think they are finding that it is a lot more complicated than it looks, because of the plethora of employers and the different sorts of case that might arise. At one level it is relatively straightforward, although not totally straightforward, dealing with complaints that take place with a single employer, whether it is members of staff or members of an individual political party. The problem that arises here is when you have people involved from different areas—members of House staff and members of parties. This is why we are going to need a twin-track system in place under which the parties will retain disciplinary procedures but there is also an independent route for when a potential case of harassment involves a perpetrator and a victim from different parties. Getting that right is going to be extremely important.
I stress the importance in all of this of changing the culture of Parliament. It is vital, of course, that we put procedures in place to deal with cases that have occurred, but the main benefit of this whole process, we hope, will be to help to change the culture of Parliament. A number of proposals which are being worked up will help to achieve this: the behavioural code will help; the mandatory training will help, although I echo the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that this must not be just e-training. I have tried three times this morning to complete the fire training, only to have the system block me. My response now is to question whether I am going to do it at all. In any event, there is inadequate assurance, in my mind, that people have got the message if they are just doing a cursory bit of e-training.
People need to understand that coming to work here requires a particular standard of behaviour, which at the moment, they clearly do not. The decision, for example, to close the sports and social club sends something of a message about the way we want people to behave, but that is only one of a range of things. My main plea to the noble Baroness as she and her colleagues continue their work into the new year is that we must put as much stress on the culture of the place, so that we have fewer of these incidents to worry about in future, as we do to making sure that the procedures for dealing with them are as good as they can be.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their comments. I shall keep my comments relatively brief because I am not sure how much longer my voice is going to hold out. Certainly, we want wide consultation. It is critical that we have everyone on the parliamentary estate brought into the new procedures, so I hope I can reassure the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that there will be further consultation. I hope that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and I have been giving a strong voice to your Lordships’ House in the committee. I accept that we are smaller in number than our colleagues in the other place, but of course we want to make sure that Peers are properly represented. There will be much further consultation to be done and quite a lot of this will be done in stages: some things can be done quite quickly but some things will take longer. There will be a lot of opportunity for other people to get involved as and when they can.
I certainly agree with the noble Baroness’s comments about the need for a new independent sexual violence advocate. Certainly, the majority of the evidence we have had from the experts is that many victims do not want to go to the police initially and they really do need support and help. That is absolutely critical and we are mindful of that. We are very keen to get that up and running as quickly as possible.
I want to stress how extremely valuable the staff representation on the group has been. We have had two unions represented—Unite and the NUJ, which is linked to the SNP—as well as MAPSA. They have been excellent in representing staff views and bringing them to us. They have undertaken surveys of members—
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am sorry to interrupt the Leader but has she made an error? She said that the NUJ was linked to the SNP.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I am sorry, I meant that the SNP’s staff tend to be members of the NUJ. That union came in because the SNP staff in the other place are largely represented by it. The unions have been extremely helpful. They have undertaken surveys and have also brought staff members to give evidence to the committee. Their voice has been very strong. Of course, it is absolutely critical that the staff are brought into this process and will be consulted going forward.
The noble Lord and the noble Baroness both mentioned training. Indeed, there has been a range of views on this. They are right: it is how we encourage people to take up training and determine what kind of training is most appropriate. That is why that is something that we will be returning to. No doubt we will seek wider views to try to ensure that we get that training package absolutely right.
I can confirm that the commission will indeed be consulted. I think the hope is that I might be able to do a further update to the commission when we meet in January but certainly we will consult the commission. Obviously, if there are any changes to the code or any other procedures, the relevant committees in this House will be involved, as will all Peers where we need collective agreement.
Finally, it has proved extremely complicated, as the noble Lord said, but we have made good progress. But I entirely agree with the noble Baroness that a flawed policy would be the worst outcome. That is why we have been working hard. We will continue to work hard and we really hope to see some real changes being made in short order.
Lord Low of Dalston (CB)
My Lords, while fully supporting the work of the working group and not wishing in any way to excuse those guilty of wrongful behaviour, I have some concern that the definitions of terms such as “bullying” and “harassment” in the survey that was recently circulated by the working group rely on a degree of subjectivity which makes them difficult to apply with precision; for example, in its use of expressions such as “unwanted” and “unwelcome” to describe conduct that is considered unacceptable. What is considered unwanted or unwelcome by one person may not be by another. Some people may be excessively thin-skinned. Does the Leader not agree that definitions of what is unacceptable need to be subject to some kind of test of reasonableness, and will the working group please take this on board in its ongoing work?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I thank the noble Lord and certainly take on board his comments. The definitions we used in the survey are official definitions. I am afraid I cannot remember if they were from ACAS or elsewhere. We used definitions of bullying, harassment and sexual violence that are accepted in practice.
Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)
My Lords, I, too, welcome the Leader repeating the Statement and all the work that is going on. I will make a couple of points. First, some of the women who are victims have come forward and quite bravely put their head above the parapet and said what has happened to them. Unfortunately and disappointingly, that has been picked up by sections of the media and they have been vilified; their lives have been picked over in an attempt to discredit them. What can be done and is the committee considering this? It will only act as a deterrent to women and other victims who want to come forward to report anything serious if they are going to find themselves in the media spotlight or on social media.
On the behavioural code, if it is a new code everyone must sign up to and is it a new code that everyone must sign up to and is it key to being a Member of Parliament, whether of this place or the other place? The Leader mentioned sanctions. Obviously, in the most serious cases, there will have to be an ultimate sanction—I suspect, suspension from either House. Will the committee be considering legislation to enable that? As I understand it, at the moment there are no grounds to suspend somebody permanently for that kind of misdemeanour. To change the culture, there have to be sanctions that will act as deterrents, and the ultimate deterrent would be suspension from this place. I should be grateful for answers to those questions.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
Confidentiality is one of the key things we have been concerned about. Getting better processes and structures in place to make sure that when people have complaints they are treated confidentially—both the victim and the person being accused—has been at the centre of what we are thinking about. We want to make sure that this works for both parties to reach a good outcome.
On the new behaviour code, the noble Baroness is right about sanctions. That is why in the Statement I talked about whether we need to look at the functions of the parliamentary commissioner. Obviously that would need changes to the code, and they would be brought forward to the House. If it was decided that the ultimate sanction was needed, as the noble Baroness suggests, we would need to change our code of conduct et cetera to achieve that, but that would be for this House as well as the other place to decide.
Baroness Manzoor (Con)
My Lords, I, too, very much welcome the Statement and I am grateful for it. Does my noble friend agree that we must ensure that all complaints are dealt with speedily and that the turnaround time for any arbitration is quick, because justice delayed is justice denied? One of the problems I found as Legal Services Ombudsman was that complaints took far too long to deal with and redress needed to come a lot quicker.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I thank my noble friend, and I entirely agree with her. That is something that has come through quite clearly in the evidence. We need to deal with these things absolutely fairly but speedily so that all parties can see that the end is in sight.
Baroness Donaghy (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for her clear personal commitment on this. As the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said, it is clear that a lot of time is being spent. We all appreciate how much the Leader of the House is doing. It is important to have a dedicated HR function. When I was chair of the now defunct information committee, I raised this issue, which is incredibly important, not least because of the outlying staff we have here who are not part of the career structure of the clerks. I felt that was a neglected area. Unfortunately I did not get anywhere, but it is important. That brings me to my last point, which is that all this will cost and I want some assurance that consideration is being given to that. Which budget will it come from? We all know that it is all very well to have agreements but we need a framework and an idea of the budget. I hope that the working group will at least give some consideration to this.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I thank the noble Baroness for her kind words. She is right about HR. In fact, that was one of the main issues raised by staff representatives on behalf of the staff they deal with, so we are extremely mindful of it. That is why we are trying to bring that in very quickly as an interim measure and then we will look at having a much more effective service going forward. The noble Baroness is right about cost, but the Government are committed to ensuring that we have proper processes. There will obviously be costs for this House as well as for the Commons, but I do not think any of us think that money should stand in the way of what needs to be done to make sure that all staff, Peers, MPs and everyone working on the Parliamentary Estate has access to the kind of support and services that they need.
The Lord Bishop of Leeds
My Lords, forgive me if this has already been covered, but can the Leader say whether the language being used will reflect the Henriques recommendations in relation to safeguarding by speaking about complainants and respondents rather than victims and perpetrators, so that justice is seen to be done all the way through?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I can certainly take that on board. We are being advised by a number of specialists in this area, so I am confident that we will get the right language. But I take on board the right reverend Prelate’s comments and will take them back to the group drafting of the final report.
House of Lords: Lord Speaker’s Committee Report
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts(6 years, 4 months ago)
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
My Lords, I thought that it would be helpful to the House to say at the outset that I will keep my remarks brief, as my main purpose today is to listen to what the House has to say about the report of the Lord Speaker’s committee.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and the other members of the committee. This report is a serious piece of work that provides much food for thought about how we might address the size of this House. I am grateful to all noble Lords contributing today. This is a debate in which views from across the House are important, as this is a report by the House for the House.
During today’s debate, I hope that noble Lords will give their views on the report and ask any questions they have about the analysis and recommendations. It will be for the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and not for me, to respond to those questions. It may be that, arising from this debate, the committee wishes to reconvene to consider additional points, which I understand it has offered to do if necessary.
What has been clear to me through discussions with noble Lords over the past few months is that there is a desire, across all Benches, to ensure that, whatever reforms might be implemented in the future, this House continues to draw on the invaluable breadth of expertise and experience of Peers as we do today so that we can continue to perform our important role of scrutinising and revising.
The Government have been clear that comprehensive reform of this House which requires legislation is not a priority for the current Parliament. The House we have today is not the product of any deliberate design but draws legitimacy from the value it adds to the legislative process, complementing the work of the elected House.
Noble Lords who have been in this House much longer than I have will have lived through both significant reforms and stalled attempts. Those attempts which failed did so because they were unable to achieve the necessary consensus, and in many cases this also meant consensus in the other place. House of Lords reform is a complex, difficult and constitutionally significant area into which anyone must be advised to tread with caution and having learned the lessons of history and unintended consequences. I recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and his committee have understood this and reflected it in the way they have approached their deliberations. As such, they have focused on developing proposals that they believe will not require legislation.
For the Prime Minister and the other party leaders, the committee has recommended a cap on the number of appointments made each year and a set formula when allocating those numbers to political groupings. This recommendation requires detailed consideration of the constitutional and political issues it raises. I know that the Prime Minister will consider carefully her response, as I am sure will the other party leaders.
The context of the Burns report is a widespread concern among noble Lords at the size of the House and what has been perceived as a never-ending increase in numbers, with attendant fears over the reputation and effectiveness of this House as a second Chamber. I am sure that today’s debate will reiterate this concern. In light of this, it is worth highlighting the fact that the Prime Minister has taken a restrained approach to appointments. Total membership has decreased since July 2016 when she took office.
A key first challenge that the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and his committee have set the House is to take advantage of the means which already exist to help achieve this end: that is, to encourage sufficient retirements. Seventy-eight Peers have chosen to retire since 2014, when this option became available. The Conservative group in this House takes our responsibility in this regard seriously, which is reflected in the number of those retirements which have come from the Conservative Benches.
As in all things, this House works at its best when it exercises self-regulation. If we are to meet the targets that the committee has set out, I am sure that noble Lords will agree that it is incumbent on all groupings in this House to consider what they can do to further promote the culture of retirement among their members at the appropriate point.
Noble Lords will note that achieving sufficient retirements forms the basis and to a significant degree dictates the success of the report’s proposed approach to reaching the goal of a smaller House. We must show our commitment as a House to reducing our size if we are to expect party leaders now or in future to agree to the restrictions that the report seeks to place on them. There are indeed two sides to achieving the outcome that the report seeks to achieve.
As I made clear, I believe that if we are to make progress, we have to do this together as a House. Indeed, the recommendations set out by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and his committee depend on this. The way forward will not be for the Government to lead on and deliver alone.
I end simply by reiterating my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and the other members of the Lord Speaker’s committee for their hard work. They have produced a valuable report which I am sure will lead to a thought-provoking debate.
European Council
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts(6 years, 4 months ago)
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. The Statement is as follows:
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on last week’s European Council. Before turning to the progress on our negotiations to leave the EU, let me briefly cover the discussions on Russia, Jerusalem, migration and education. In each case the UK made a substantive contribution, both as a current member of the EU and in the spirit of the new, deep and special partnership we want to build with our European neighbours.
Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea was the first time since the Second World War that one sovereign nation has forcibly taken territory from another in Europe. Since then, human rights have worsened: Russia has fomented conflict in the Donbass and the peace process in Ukraine has stalled. As I said at the Lord Mayor’s Banquet, the UK will do what is necessary to protect ourselves and work with our allies to do likewise, both now and after we have left the EU. We were at the forefront of the original call for EU sanctions, and at this Council we agreed to extend those sanctions for a further six months.
On Jerusalem, I made it clear that we disagree with the United States’ decision to move its embassy and recognise Jerusalem as the Israeli capital before a final status agreement. Like our EU partners, we will not be following suit. But it is vital that we continue to work with the United States to encourage it to bring forward proposals that will re-energise the peace process. This must be based around support for a two-state solution and an acknowledgement that the final status of Jerusalem must be subject to negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians.
On migration, when we leave the European Union we will be taking back control of our borders and laws, so we will be free to decide our own approach independently of the EU. But as part of the new partnership we want to build, I made it clear at this Council that we will continue to play our full part in working with the EU on this shared challenge. We will retain our maritime presence in the Mediterranean for as long as necessary; we will work with Libyan law enforcement to enhance its capability to tackle people-smuggling networks; and we will continue to address the root causes of the problem by investing for the long term in education, jobs and services, both in countries of origin and transit.
When it comes to education, our world-leading universities remain a highly attractive destination for students from across the EU, while UK students also benefit from studying overseas. UK and EU universities will still want to work together after we leave the EU and to co-operate with other universities from around the world. We will discuss how to achieve this in the long term as part of the negotiations on our future deep and special partnership. In the meantime, I was pleased to confirm at this Council that UK students will be able to continue to participate in the Erasmus student exchange programme for at least another three years, until the end of this budget period.
Turning to Brexit, the European Council formally agreed on Friday that sufficient progress has been made to move on to the second stage of the negotiations. This is an important step on the road to delivering the smooth and orderly Brexit that people voted for in June last year. I want to thank Jean-Claude Juncker for his personal efforts, and Donald Tusk and my fellow leaders for the constructive way they have approached this process. With Friday’s Council we have now achieved my first priority of a reciprocal agreement on citizens’ rights. EU citizens living in the UK will have their rights enshrined in UK law and enforced by British courts, and UK citizens living in the EU will also have their rights protected. We needed both, and that is what we have got, providing vital reassurance to all these citizens and their families in the run-up to Christmas.
On the financial settlement, I set out the principles for the House last week and the negotiations have brought this settlement down by a substantial amount. Based on reasonable assumptions the settlement is estimated to stand at between £35 billion and £39 billion in current terms. This is the equivalent of around four years of our current budget contribution, around two of which we expect will be covered by the implementation period. It is far removed from some of the figures that have been bandied around.
On Northern Ireland, as I set out in detail for the House last week, we have committed to maintain the common travel area with Ireland; to uphold the Belfast agreement in full; and to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland while upholding the constitutional and economic integrity of the whole United Kingdom, and we will work closer than ever with all Northern Irish parties and the Irish Government as we now enter the second phase of the negotiations.
The guidelines published by President Tusk on Friday point to the shared desire of the EU and the UK to make rapid progress on an implementation period, with formal talks beginning very soon. This will help give certainty to employers and families that we are going to deliver a smooth Brexit. As I proposed in Florence, during this strictly time-limited implementation period, which we will now begin to negotiate, we would not be in the single market or the customs union, as we will have left the European Union. But we would propose that our access to one another’s markets would continue as now, while we prepare and implement the new processes and new systems that will underpin our future partnership.
During this period, we intend to register new arrivals from the EU as preparation for our future immigration system, and we will prepare for our future independent trade policy by negotiating and where possible signing trade deals with third countries, which could come into force after the conclusion of the implementation period. Finally, the Council also confirmed on Friday that discussions will now begin on trade and the future security partnership. I set out the framework for our approach to these discussions in my speeches at Lancaster House and in Florence. We will now work with our European partners with ambition and creativity to develop the details of a partnership that I firmly believe will be in the best interests of both the UK and the EU.
Since my Lancaster House speech in January we have triggered Article 50 and begun and closed negotiations on the first phase. We have done what many said could not be done—demonstrating what can be achieved with commitment and perseverance on both sides—and I will not be derailed from delivering the democratic will of the British people. We are well on our way to delivering a smooth and orderly Brexit. That is good news for those who voted to leave, who were worried the negotiations were so complicated it was never going to happen, and it is good news for those who voted remain, who were worried that we might leave without being able to reach an agreement.
We will now move on with building a bold new economic relationship, which, together with the new trade deals we strike across the world, can support generations of new jobs for our people, open up new markets for our exporters and drive new growth for our economy. We will build a new security relationship that promotes our values in the world and keeps our families safe from threats that increasingly do not recognise geographical boundaries. And we will bring our country together—stronger, fairer, and once again back in control of our borders, our money and our laws.
Finally, let me say this. We are dealing with questions of great significance to our country’s future, so it is natural that there are many strongly held views on all sides of this Chamber, and it is right and proper that we should debate them, and do so with all the passion and conviction that makes our democracy what it is. But there can never be a place for the threats of violence and intimidation against some Members that we have seen in recent days. Our politics must be better than that. On that note, I commend this Statement to the House”.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, it is the time for end-of-term reports, and this Statement represents that of the Government in respect of Brexit. Like the assiduous student that she was, the Prime Minister has carefully presented her course work. She has one agreement to show for almost nine months of negotiations since the triggering of Article 50. It is in three parts. The Government have agreed to honour their financial commitments—good, but this was merely bowing to the inevitable. They have agreed to allow EU migrants to stay in the UK—good, but this principle was never seriously in contention. They have kicked the Northern Ireland problem down the road—bad, but given the fundamental incompatibility contained in the Government’s position, this is an inevitable delay until or unless the Government work out what they want their trading relationship with the EU to be.
In terms of legislation, we are to have at least eight Brexit Bills and 1,000 statutory instruments before March 2019, and in reality many of these will be needed well before then. Yet not a single piece of primary legislation, far less a single statutory instrument, has been enacted and no Brexit-related Bill has even completed its passage through a single House. It is extremely difficult to see how the Government plan to get all this legislation through in a timely manner, but given the importance of the subject matter, can the Leader of the House give us an assurance that the Government will produce their proposals in time for both Houses to deal with them properly and within the normal conventions on timetabling?
As far as the future trading relationship is concerned, and indeed on a host of other issues, including the Government’s attitude to ongoing migration to and from the EU, it is pointless pressing the Leader on the Government’s attitude because they literally have no policy. Can she, however, confirm that last week’s agreement means that Northern Ireland citizens who retain their EU citizenship will have more rights than other UK citizens? If, as I believe, this is so, it will be deeply offensive to many people. Given that the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said to your Lordships’ House last Monday that,
“we are not ruling out”—[Official Report, 11/12/17; col. 1368.]
UK nationals retaining EU citizenship, will the Government now positively propose to the EU that UK citizens will be able to retain their EU citizenship so that the majority of us are not reduced to second-class status in comparison with our Northern Ireland compatriots? Given that when the Government do eventually adopt a policy on our future trading relationship with the EU this will be of fundamental importance to the Brexit negotiations, and indeed the country’s position going forward, will the Leader of the House give an assurance that both Houses of Parliament will be able to have a full debate and vote on the Government’s proposals before they are transmitted to the EU? Would not anything less be inconsistent with Parliament taking back control?
In order that people at large might have a clearer understanding of the consequences of Brexit for the economy, will the Leader now seek to persuade the Prime Minister and the Brexit Secretary to publish the infamous sectoral reports? They contain nothing which is commercially sensitive or could jeopardise our negotiating position and there is no reason why everyone should not be able to see them. The current arrangements for parliamentarians to see them are disproportionately restrictive and should in any event be relaxed, but the documents should simply become publicly available. The only conclusion one can draw from the Government’s current approach is that they do not want people to see how complicated Brexit will be in practice or to understand the depth and beneficial nature of our current economic relationships with the EU.
Finally, will the noble Baroness confirm the estimate in today’s Financial Times that Brexit is already costing, not benefiting, the UK some £340 million a week, as a result of lower growth which has flowed from the referendum result? It is very tempting at this stage of the term to give the Government an overall mark for their term’s work, but I fear that that would be embarrassing. I simply pose the question asked by many a frustrated and disappointed supervisor: “Don’t you think it would be better if you took another course?”.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their comments, but I am somewhat disappointed that they do not seem to have fully welcomed the fact that we have made sufficient progress and that we can now move to talk about the future. They have been saying that this is what they want for months, yet now we achieve it, unfortunately it seems that they are not as keen as perhaps they said they were originally.
To answer the noble Baroness’s question, we will start talking to the EU 27 about the shape of the future relationship and the details of the implementation period straightaway and the EU will be producing guidelines in March to further aid those discussions. The noble Baroness also asked about Gibraltar. I can confirm that the UK Government are committed to engage with the Crown dependencies and overseas territories, including Gibraltar, of course, as we prepare to exit the EU, to ensure that their interests and priorities are taken into account. We will never enter into arrangements under which the people of Gibraltar would pass under the sovereignty of any other state against their wishes. We had the fifth meeting of the UK-Gibraltar ministerial forum on 11 December with DExEU and Treasury Ministers taking part alongside the Chief Minister, Deputy Chief Minister, Financial Secretary and Attorney-General of Gibraltar, so I can assure her that we have Gibraltar’s interests at the centre of our thoughts and will continue to do so.
The noble Baroness asked about Erasmus. As she rightly acknowledged, the Prime Minister announced our intention to continue to participate in the Erasmus programme for at least another three years, until the end of the current budget period. Anything further than that is for the future negotiations, but that commitment shows how much we value the Erasmus programme and understand its importance. In relation to onward movement, I fear that I can say no more than I said last week: this was an issue we were hoping to resolve, it has not yet been resolved but we have been very clear that we want to come back to it at the next stage of the negotiations. On her question about the Fisheries Minister, he certainly managed to balance his responsibilities in representing the UK in the recent discussions with taking his role as a parliamentarian extremely seriously.
The noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked about citizens’ rights. As we have said all along, we wanted a reciprocal agreement on citizens’ rights and that is what we have agreed. We now want to make sure that we turn the agreement into the legal agreement we will see in the withdrawal and implementation Bill. He asked about the sectoral reports. Everyone can see them, they are available for anyone to see and I certainly encourage all noble Lords to do so.
Lord Spicer (Con)
Was there any agreement, either in the margins of the meeting or in the meeting itself, as to what would happen if the full terms of Article 50 were applied in the event of there being no agreement in the discussions?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
The discussions in relation to us leaving the EU were very constructive. We have now agreed to move on to phase 2 and to start to talk about our future relationship, which is extremely welcome.
Lord Hain (Lab)
My Lords, given that the Northern Ireland question was responsible for rescuing the Prime Minister in the first stage of negotiations when she agreed a regulatory alignment on standards and the adjudication of those standards, not just physical controls on the Irish border, within the whole of the UK—that is, the customs union and the single market have to be aligned in order to keep the border open—and now that has been accepted for the transitional talks, what is the point of leaving the single market and the customs union? Does she think that the EU is magically going to give us a better deal by being exactly aligned with the customs union and the single market outside it?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
We have always said that the details of how we maintain an open border will be settled in phase 2 of the negotiations, when we agree our future relationship, and that is what we will do. We have also been very clear that alignment is about pursuing the same objectives, but achieving this could be done through different means. It does not require regulatory harmonisation.
The Lord Bishop of Leeds
My Lords, the Leader seems disappointed that the Statement has not been welcomed as it might have been. I do welcome it but I do not think it is as it has been portrayed; that is, the progress that has been made thus far is simply the opening gambit and the real hard work is going to come in the next phase. It seems to me that so far not a great deal has been achieved, except that we can go on to talk about the next phase. I will make a quick observation and then put a question.
I have some knowledge of Russia. It seems that Russia does not need to defeat the West because it gets the West to defeat itself; the Russian policy seems to be to destabilise, and Brexit and the way it is being conducted actually feed that agenda. We do not talk about that enough. If you look at the rise of the far right, such as what has gone on in Austria, the very strong links with Russia are there. This is not simply about Ukraine.
I would be much happier if I heard the word “might” rather than “will”. We talk about how we “will” get the best deal. By definition, we will get the best deal because it will be the only one that we come up with so it will be the best, but that is not the same as saying that it will be the best deal that we could have got or the best for this nation. Would it not be better for the Government to get away from thinking that if you make assertions, that creates reality, and to be more honest with the British people by saying we “might” get, rather than we “will”, when it might not be in our power to achieve the “will”?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I am afraid I do not agree with the right reverend Prelate that progress has not been made. We have made a lot of progress in phase 1, not least in giving clarity to UK citizens living abroad and EU citizens here about their status. We have discussed a financial settlement. We have discussed the very important issue of Northern Ireland and have all agreed that we do not want a hard border and have thought about how we might achieve that. In terms of where we go next, I think we are in a good position. The EU Council conclusions state:
“The European Council reconfirms its desire to establish a close partnership between the Union and the United Kingdom … The European Council reconfirms its readiness to establish partnerships in areas unrelated to trade, in particular the fight against terrorism and international crime, as well as security, defence and foreign policy”.
These things are the basis for a good deal.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, I am sure we welcome the good news brought by the noble Baroness from the Prime Minister, but I think many in your Lordships’ House share the confusion about how we are to get to the Panglossian outcome in Ireland without remaining part of the single market. Is the noble Baroness able to explain that, and how having the Government,
“work closer than ever with all Northern Irish parties”,
fits with the Prime Minister’s confidence and supply measures with the DUP? Has she asked Arlene Foster?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My Lords, I am afraid I can say only what I have said already today and several times last week. Everyone has pledged that there will be no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. We have always said that details of how to maintain an open border will be settled in phase 2 of the negotiations. If we do not achieve that outcome, which we believe we will, we will look to negotiate specific solutions for the Northern Ireland border.
Lord Maude of Horsham (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it is unhelpful for negotiators on the EU side to say, as I understand Michel Barnier is reported to have said, that no bespoke agreement can be reached with the UK? Every single trade agreement that the EU has reached with third countries has been a bespoke agreement, and it is manifestly absurd to argue that ours cannot be one. This will be about trade but also about co-operation on security and intelligence. Does my noble friend agree that effective collaboration, particularly on intelligence, depends at least as much on trust in relationships as it does on the legal framework, and that evidence of serious good will in wanting this to be genuinely a deep and special relationship will be of huge importance in ensuring that security and intelligence collaboration can be as effective in future as it certainly is now?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My noble friend speaks with great experience, and I could not say it better than he did.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, if the Minister is saying, as I believe she is, that the UK will have left the European Union on 31 March 2019 and the single market and the customs union on the same date, but that over the transitional period virtually identical rules to those of the single market and the customs union will persist, on what basis cannot those rules persist indefinitely?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
As we have said, we are looking for a time-limited implementation period to ensure that businesses and individuals have to make only one set of changes. We want a swift agreement on the implementation period. Our objective is for access to each other’s markets to continue on current terms, based on the existing structures of EU rules and regulations but for a time-limited period.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, last week my noble friend told the House that the Cabinet was united. It really is not helpful when articles and interviews are given by members of the Cabinet, particularly those intimately involved with these negotiations, which in effect undermine the Prime Minister’s excellent work, which we should all be applauding. If the Prime Minister cannot bring herself to give the sack to some of them, can she at least put gags in their crackers?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I can only repeat what I said last week: the Cabinet is united and we are looking forward to a very constructive discussion tomorrow.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, to try to keep her party united the Prime Minister makes a lot in her Statement of preparing,
“for our future independent trade policy by negotiating and where possible signing trade deals with third countries”,
in the implementation period. Does the Leader of the House accept that, once you have gone for signing trade deals with third countries, you require a hard border, because in order to enforce rules of origin and ensure that as a result of trade deals which bring in agricultural produce from other parts of the world that do not meet EU standards, you have to have a border that enforces those standards? Does she therefore accept that that statement is incompatible with her assurance that there will be no hard border in Ireland?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
No, I am afraid I do not, because we have all pledged that there will be no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, the Statement says that the Government will propose that our free trade with the EU should continue as now. Do the Government fear that the Eurocrats will be arrogant enough to refuse this offer which, as I have mentioned before, would be much more in EU exporters’ collective interest than it would be in ours because, if we are all forced back to the WTO, they will pay us some £13 billion in extra tariffs and our exporters will pay them about £5 billion? Can the Government assure your Lordships that they will hold firm on this offer, enlisting, if necessary, the support of EU exporters? Going further, why should our free trade together not continue indefinitely? Would that not also be quite helpful with the Irish border problem?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I am afraid I do not agree with the noble Lord. The fact that we have got to where we are shows that there is willingness on both sides to work together to make sure that we have a good outcome for both the EU and the UK. I look forward and expect that we will continue the phase 2 negotiations, including around the details of the implementation period, in the constructive manner we have seen so far.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, the Statement starts and ends with references to the foreign and security relationship we hope to build with the European Union after we leave. The Council conclusions of the 28 member Governments, of which we remain, for the moment, one, talk about a new initiative in closer security co-operation among Europeans, which will presumably exclude the United Kingdom. Given that some members of the Conservative Party may be deeply unhappy at any special relationship with the European Union on foreign policy and security after we leave, would it not be a good idea for the Government to begin to set out publicly, for their own public as well as for those with whom they are negotiating, what sort of foreign policy and security relationship we wish to have? I also draw attention to the last sentence, which has some fine words on violent language and threats of violence. Given that the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail have led in using violent language against people who have been “traitorous” to the Conservative Party, as they put it, is the Prime Minister planning to call in the editors of those two newspapers by any chance?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I think the Prime Minister is quite clear in the Statement about the fact that we do not agree with or tolerate such language. In relation to defence, the noble Lord may have been referring to the launch of PESCO, which is an important initiative to encourage collaboration across the European defence industry and has the potential to drive up defence investment across Europe. Although we do not plan to join the PESCO framework, we want to keep open the option to participate at a project level, including after we have left the EU, so we were pleased with the Council conclusions that allow that. In terms of our future relationship, the noble Lord will be aware that we have published a future partnership paper on Foreign Policy, Defence and Development and indicated, for instance, our interest in future partnerships, including a capability collaboration through the European Defence Agency and the Commission’s European defence fund.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick
Has my noble friend noticed the statement of the Italian Prime Minister, who believes that the outcome of the talks ought to be not a CETA-type agreement, not an off-shelf agreement, but one specifically designed for and tailored to Britain’s needs? Is that not extremely encouraging? Are not some of the comments we have heard from the Opposition completely inappropriate when we know that the shadow Chancellor wants to be outside the customs union, the shadow Home Secretary wants to be inside the internal market and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, says that the whole point of their tactics is to reverse Brexit completely?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
On my noble friend’s first point, which picks up on the point that my noble friend made earlier, we are indeed looking to negotiate a bespoke trade agreement. All these agreements are in fact bespoke to the countries involved in them. I also agree with the comments he made at the end of his remarks.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, the Minister might perhaps help us parse two very short words which relate to the time-limited stand-still period. The words are “as now”. Can she confirm that they cover trade in goods and services, including agricultural and fish products, the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and all other aspects of the single market?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
As I have said, our objective is for access to each other’s markets to continue on current terms, based on the existing structure of EU rules and regulations. The framework will mean that we will start off under the CJEU and will be under it for part of the period. But the Prime Minister has always said that if we can agree provisions that will be part of the future relationship, such as a dispute resolution mechanism, we will aim to bring them forward at an earlier stage.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, I understand that quantum mechanics says that it is possible for an electron to be in two places at the same time. Does this explain the behaviour of the Benches opposite? In the other place, an amendment to allow us to remain in the single market and the customs union proposed by Ian Murray, who used to be the shadow spokesman on Scottish affairs, was whipped against by the Labour Party and defeated by 311 votes to 76. What are we to make of the Leader of the Opposition attacking the Government for being divided when they do not know which part of their anatomy differs from the other?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
What is most important is that we are now moving into phase 2 of the negotiations, with a united Government looking for the best deal that we will achieve for the UK and the EU.
Lord Bridges of Headley (Con)
My Lords, to pick up on the point that my noble friend has just made about phase 2, last week Monsieur Barnier said that the treaty that is likely to emerge from the end of this process,
“will be accompanied by a political declaration … which will describe the framework for our future relationship. A political declaration. But it cannot be anything else. In technical, legal terms it simply is not possible to do anything else”.
Does my noble friend agree with what Monsieur Barnier says?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
What I can do is read to my noble friend from the EU Council conclusions, which say:
“While an agreement on a future relationship can only be finalised and concluded once the United Kingdom has become a third country, the Union will be ready to engage in preliminary and preparatory discussions with the aim of identifying an overall understanding of the framework for the future relationship … Such an understanding should be elaborated in a political declaration accompanying and referred to in the Withdrawal Agreement”.
Lord Judd (Lab)
My Lords, meanwhile in the world as a whole, with all the challenges of climate change and the new political pressures that are at work, a gigantic migration problem is building up, which will make the challenges which we face at the moment seem small by comparison. In the midst of all our tactical preoccupations, what work is being done with our European allies to formulate a strategic policy towards how this issue of migration in the world is to be handled? How are we going to ensure that this is done effectively when we are deliberately moving to an arm’s-length relationship with those who share the burden in Europe?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
We certainly are working closely with our European partners and are committed to playing our full part in tackling the shared challenges posed by the global migration crisis. As the Statement said, we are committed to maintaining a maritime presence in the Mediterranean. The Royal Navy has intercepted 172 smuggling boats and saved more than 12,000 lives since Operation Sophia began. We are continuing the deployment of the Border Force cutter to the central Mediterranean to support the search and rescue activities under Operation Triton. To date, cutters have rescued more than 13,000 migrants across the central Mediterranean and Aegean. We are taking our responsibilities extremely seriously and are working with the EU in terms of looking at where these migrants are coming from and trying to help stabilise states. We take this extremely seriously and will continue to work with the EU, the UN and international partners to make sure that we work together to tackle this problem, because together is the only way we will achieve it.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
My Lords, in her Statement on 23 October, the Prime Minister referred to,
“a time-limited implementation period based on current terms”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/10/17; col. 25.]
Of course, today she has said that if we Brexit in March 2019, we would not be members of the European Union after that. To pick up on the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, if we fast forward two years from now to the annual Fisheries Council to determine total allowable catches, will there be a British Minister at the table to defend British fishing interests? How does the noble Baroness see this working?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
As the Prime Minister says, it will depend on the next phase of negotiations, but currently we expect the implementation period to be two years.
Business of the House
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Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
That Standing Order 40(1) (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Tuesday 19 December to enable the debate on the motion in the name of Lord Burns to begin before Oral Questions.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the first Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.
Business of the House
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Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
That the debates on the Motions in the names of Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde and Lord Bach set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the second Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.
Brexit Negotiations
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House I shall now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to update the House on the negotiations for our departure from the European Union.
On Friday morning, the Government and the European Commission published a joint report on progress during the first phase. On the basis of this report and following the discussions I held throughout last week, President Juncker is recommending to the European Council that sufficient progress has now been made to move to the next stage and begin talks on the future relationship between the UK and the EU. President Tusk has responded positively by proposing guidelines for the next phase of the negotiations.
I pay tribute to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and our whole negotiating team for their calm and professional approach to these negotiations. We have argued robustly and clearly for the outcomes that we seek: a fair and reciprocal deal that will guarantee the rights of more than 3 million EU citizens living in the UK and 1 million UK nationals living in the EU so they can carry on living their lives as before; a fair settlement of the accounts, meeting our rights and obligations as a departing member state, in the spirit of our future partnership; and a commitment to maintain the common travel area with Ireland, uphold the Belfast agreement in full, and avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland while upholding the constitutional and economic integrity of the whole United Kingdom.
I shall set out for the House the agreements we have now reached in each of these areas. More than 3 million EU citizens make an extraordinary contribution to every part of our economy, society, culture and national life, and I know that EU member states similarly value the contribution of the 1 million UK nationals living in their communities, so from the outset I have made protecting citizens’ rights my first priority. However, for these rights to be truly reciprocal, they need to be interpreted consistently in both the UK and the EU. The European Union started by wanting all EU citizens’ rights to be preserved in the UK by a prolongation of EU law; it said these rights should not require any UK process to implement them, and that they should be supervised by the Commission and enforced by the European Court of Justice. Those proposals were not acceptable. When we leave the European Union, our laws will be made and enforced here in Britain, not in Luxembourg, so the EU has accepted that we will incorporate the withdrawal agreement into UK law. Citizens’ rights will then be enforced by our courts when appropriate, paying due regard to relevant ECJ case law, just as they already decide other matters with reference to international law when it is relevant.
In the interests of consistent interpretation of citizens’ rights, we have agreed that, when existing law is not clear, our courts, and only our courts, will be able to choose to ask the ECJ for an interpretation prior to reaching their own decision, but that will be a very narrow remit and a very small number of cases—and, unlike now, they will not be obliged to do so. This will be voluntary. The case itself will always be determined by the UK courts, not the ECJ, and there will also be a sunset clause so, after eight years, even that voluntary mechanism will end.
The end-point of this process is very clear. EU citizens living in the UK will have their rights enshrined in UK law and enforced by British courts, and UK citizens living in the EU will also have their rights protected. The jurisdiction of the ECJ in the UK is coming to an end. We are taking control of our own laws once again, and that is exactly how it should be.
I turn to the financial settlement. Following some tough conversations, we have agreed the scope of our commitments and the principles for their valuation. We will continue to pay our net contributions under the current EU budget plan. During this time, our proposed implementation period will see us continuing to trade on current terms. We will pay our fair share of the outstanding commitments and liabilities to which we committed during our membership. However, this is conditional upon a number of principles we have negotiated over how we will ultimately arrive at a fair valuation of these commitments, which will bring the actual financial settlement down by a substantial amount.
This part of the report we agreed on Friday, like the rest of it, is also subject to the general reservation that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. This means we want to see the whole deal now coming together, including the terms of our future deep and special partnership, as I said in Florence. These are the actions of a responsible nation honouring the commitments that it has made to its allies, having gone through those commitments line by line as we said we would. It is a fair settlement for the British taxpayer, who will soon see significant savings compared with remaining in the European Union. It means we will be able to use that money to invest in our priorities at home, such as housing, schools and the NHS. It means the days of paying vast sums to the European Union every year are coming to an end.
Our departure from the European Union presents a significant and unique challenge for Northern Ireland and Ireland, so it is absolutely right that the joint report makes clear we will uphold the Belfast agreement in full. This agreement, including its subsequent implementation agreements and arrangements, has been critical to the progress made in Northern Ireland over recent decades. Our commitment to those agreements, the principles that underpin them, the institutions they establish and the rights and opportunities they guarantee remains steadfast.
The joint report reaffirms our guarantee that there will be no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. So much of daily life in Northern Ireland depends on being able to cross the border freely, so it is right that we ensure that no new barriers are put in place. We have been absolutely clear that nothing in this process will alter our determination to uphold the constitutional and economic integrity of the whole United Kingdom. It was right that we took time last week to strengthen and clarify the joint report in this regard, listening to unionists across the country, including the DUP. On Friday, I reinforced this further by making six principled commitments to Northern Ireland.
First, we will always uphold and support Northern Ireland’s status as an integral part of the United Kingdom, consistent with the principle of consent. As our Northern Ireland manifesto at the last election made clear, the Government I lead will never be neutral when it comes to expressing our support for the union. Secondly, we will fully protect and maintain Northern Ireland’s position within the single market of the United Kingdom. This is by far the most important market for Northern Ireland’s goods and services and Northern Ireland will continue to have full and unfettered access to it. Thirdly, there will be no new borders within the United Kingdom. In addition to no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, we will maintain the common travel area throughout these islands.
Fourthly, the whole of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, will leave the EU customs union and the EU single market. Nothing in the agreement I have reached alters that fundamental fact. Fifthly, we will uphold the commitments and safeguards set out in the Belfast agreement regarding north-south co-operation. This will continue to require cross-community support. Sixthly, the whole of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, will no longer be subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.
As the joint report makes clear, our intention is to deliver against these commitments through the new, deep and special partnership that we are going to build with the European Union. Should this not prove possible, we have also been clear that we will seek specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. Because we recognise the concerns felt by either side of the border and we want to guarantee that we will honour the commitments we have made, we have also agreed one further fallback option of last resort, so if we cannot find specific solutions, the UK will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the customs union which, now or in the future, support north-south co-operation, economic co-operation across the island of Ireland and the protection of the Belfast agreement.
The joint report clearly sets out that cross-community safeguards and consent are required from the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly for distinct arrangements in this scenario, and that in all circumstances Northern Irish businesses will continue to have full and unfettered access to the markets in the rest of the United Kingdom on which they rely, so there can be no question about our commitment to avoiding borders both north-south and east-west. We will continue to work with all Northern Irish parties and the Irish Government in the second phase of the talks, and continue to encourage the re-establishment of the Northern Ireland Executive so that Northern Ireland’s voice is fully heard throughout this process.
Finally, in my Florence speech, I proposed an implementation period to give Governments, business and families the time they need to implement the changes required for our future partnership. The precise terms of this period will be for discussion in the next phase of negotiations. I very much welcome President Tusk’s recommendation that talks on the implementation period should start immediately and that it should be agreed as soon as possible.
This is not about a hard or a soft Brexit. The arrangements we have agreed to reach the second phase of the talks are entirely consistent with the principles and objectives that I set out in my speeches in Florence and at Lancaster House. I know that some doubted we would reach this stage. The process ahead will not be easy. The progress so far has required give and take for the UK and the EU to move forwards together, and that is what we have done. Of course, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, but there is, I believe, a new sense of optimism now in the talks and I hope and expect that we will confirm the arrangements I have set out today in the European Council later this week. This is good news for people who voted leave, who were worried we were so bogged down in tortuous negotiations it was never going to happen, and it is good news for people who voted remain, who were worried we were going to crash out without a deal. We are going to leave but we are going to do so in a smooth and orderly way, securing a new deep and special partnership with our friends while taking back control of our borders, money and laws again. That is my mission, that is this Government’s mission, and on Friday we took a big step towards achieving it”.
I commend this Statement to the House.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, I begin by congratulating the Prime Minister on an achievement which many —including many of her colleagues—thought was impossible. She has survived to fight another day and on that she is to be congratulated. The deal she struck last week, however, is not the stuff of congratulations. Before we look at it, can the Leader of the House confirm its status, to take up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith? Is it a mere “statement of intent”, which the Brexit Secretary believed it to be yesterday, or “more than legally enforceable”, which he believes this morning? Or does its status change with the Secretary of State’s mood?
There are three main pillars of the deal, and the first is citizens’ rights. Friday’s agreement confirms that there will be no certainty until any final deal is reached, leaving EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU as continuing bargaining chips. How then can the Prime Minister claim that this is her top priority? This uncertainty is compounded by the provision that all 3 million EU citizens in the UK will then have two years to submit applications for registration. Until these applications are satisfactorily processed, their status will be unconfirmed. Can the Government give the 3 million any assurances as to when they hope to complete the registration process? A charge is payable also by those who currently do not have permanent residency. How much will that charge be and how many people do the Government estimate will have to pay it?
On the financial settlement, the Government argue that the payment will be up to £40 billion. Can the Leader confirm that this figure does not include over £10 billion of contingent liabilities and could, therefore, be significantly greater?
I have mentioned so far issues that are capable of resolution, albeit at significant cost. The issue of the Northern Ireland border is not. As Jonathan Powell put it in Saturday’s Financial Times:
“In fact, the problem of the border is not resolved at all but simply left hanging”.
The Government’s preferred solution to the border issue appears to involve agreeing with the EU that we remain effectively, if not in name, inside the single market in terms of rules and regulations. In other words, we will supinely accept whatever rules the EU adopts. Can the Leader confirm that this is indeed the Government’s preferred outcome? If so, will she accept that far from taking back control of our markets and trade, we have completely lost control, and in doing so made it practically impossible to carry out independent trade deals which improve on EU trade deals because we have agreed to follow EU rules?
One aspect of the Northern Ireland agreement is particularly troubling to me. People in Northern Ireland will retain EU citizenship. They will, in the words of Leo Varadkar,
“have the right to study in Paris, buy property in Spain, work in Berlin”.
They will also retain an EU passport. I and my children are denied these rights. I will be reduced to waving to friends from Northern Ireland, with as cheery a hello as I can muster, as they sail past me in European airport passport queues—they in the EU citizens’ line and me with the rest of the world. I will be furious, and I suspect that many millions of citizens of Great Britain will also be furious, when they learn that they have become second-class citizens in their own country.
However, despite all the flaws, the Government will now move on to the trade talks. I realise it is pointless asking the Leader what the Government hope the outcome will be as they have not made up their mind but, before they do, I suggest that she has a quiet word with the Brexit Secretary. In his interview yesterday on “The Andrew Marr Show”, he said that he would take the best bits of existing EU trade deals and,
“add to that the bits missing, which is the services”.
Could she point out that services represent 40% of our exports to the EU and that this share is growing rapidly? Far from being the bits which are missing, free access to EU markets for our service exporters would be vital to the economic prosperity of the UK were we to leave the EU.
The Prime Minister deserves a celebratory glass for surviving until Christmas. She should savour it because the difficult part of the EU negotiations is now about to begin.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their comments and for their support and recognition that we have indeed moved on.
The joint report about which they both asked sets out the agreement we have reached in phase 1 and we are clear that we want to honour the agreement made, as we believe are the EU. However, we now need to turn this into a withdrawal agreement, which we have said we will put into primary legislation. So this is a report on phase 1; we are all committed to what is in the report and the agreements made; and we now need to turn that into a withdrawal agreement, to which we have committed. We will bring that forward in legislation, and that will be the opportunity for Parliament to discuss and scrutinise that agreement.
On Northern Ireland, which again both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord asked about, we have been consistently clear that there will be no return to a hard border in Ireland, and we have always said that the details of how we maintain an open border will be settled in phase 2 of the negotiations, which we hope to confirm we are moving to on Friday, where we can agree our future relationship with the EU. I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Newby, that the whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland, will leave the EU customs union and the EU single market, and nothing in the agreement alters that fundamental fact. However, we are confident that, working together, we will ensure that we have no hard border in Northern Ireland. We have said, as I outlined in the Statement, that there is a fall- back option if that does not happen, but we are confident that we will come to an agreement that suits us all.
On monitoring compliance, the EU Commission will retain its existing role in monitoring compliance with EU law in member states, and this will extend to compliance with the withdrawal agreement. The Commission will not monitor compliance in the UK. We will create a new independent authority to do this and will set out details in due course.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about onward movement for UK citizens in the EU. She is right that that has not yet been resolved, but we have been very clear that it is something we want to come back to in the next phase of the negotiations.
The noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked about the new settled status scheme. We have been clear that we will introduce the scheme under UK law for EU citizens and their family members. The scheme will provide a transparent, smooth and streamlined process, and it will incorporate appropriate criminality checks. The application will cost no more than a British passport, and EU citizens will have two years to apply. The Home Office will be bringing forward a scheme on a voluntary basis to enable EU citizens and their family members to confirm their status as soon as possible.
Finally, on trade, we have always been clear that we are not looking for a Canadian or Norwegian-style deal, but one that is specific to UK circumstances and is specific to the fact that we are starting off in a completely different position in terms of our relationship with the EU from that of any other country so far.
Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the Statement repeated by my noble friend. It seems to me that, whatever side of the argument you were on, it was necessary to get through into the proper discussion of what our future relationship will be. The fact is that the EU had set down preconditions before that could start, so I am delighted that those have now been overcome and we can move on to the further procedures. Perhaps I may say again what I said last week about Northern Ireland. It is a very difficult problem, and it is impossible to see how it is going to be settled until we know what the future final trading arrangement is going to be. That must be the logical consequence. It should never have been inserted as a precondition to resolve this issue in advance of the trade talks going forward. The case of EU citizens and the financial arrangements are now agreed. I hope that everyone, whichever side they are on, will get on with the talks in order to find a satisfactory way through for all concerned, both in the EU and in the UK.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I thank my noble friend for his comments. He is absolutely right to say that this is all still subject to the Council agreeing that sufficient progress has been made, which we hope and expect to be able to hear later this week. He is also absolutely right about Northern Ireland. We have always been clear that the details of how we maintain an open border will be settled in phase 2 of the negotiations where we agree our future relationship. We are confident that, with good will on both sides, we will be able to do this.
Lord Liddle (Lab)
My Lords, on the point that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, and looking at the paragraph which refers to the financial settlement, I see that it states,
“we want to see the whole deal now coming together, including the terms of our future deep and special partnership”.
Can the noble Baroness confirm that what she is talking about is the framework for the future relationship which is set out in Article 50? She is not talking about the conclusion of a trade deal, because that will take many years beyond 2019. Given that, next autumn the Government will be signing up to pay £40 billion as a divorce settlement, but essentially on trade by the time we leave the European Union it will be a pig in a poke and we will have no idea of what eventual deal will be agreed.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
The Prime Minister has said that the money we have discussed is in the context of agreeing our future partnership. We have also been very clear in setting out the valuations and we have agreed the important principles that will apply to how we rely on them. Further, we have agreed a fair settlement with the final bill estimated to stand at around £35 billion to £39 billion, which noble Lords will be aware is at least half of the reports we have had previously about how much money would be involved in the financial settlement. This is a good deal and it also means that we can begin to unlock the talks in order to start talking about the deep and special relationship and our future trading partnership.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)
My Lords, can the Minister respond to one point that occurs to me very sharply? The statement that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed seems to apply to all three pillars of this first-phase agreement. Is it really conceivable that the Government will take away the agreement that is reached on the status of EU citizens here and our citizens across Europe if there is no agreement? Is it their position that they will remove that? If that is the case, what assurance is being given to those 4 million citizens since they will then know that they will not have clarity until the last minute of the last hour of the last day of the negotiations?
Secondly, on the Irish issue, could not the Minister perhaps apply a common-sense rule which is that the text, it seems to me, states clearly that if there is no agreement, the regulatory alignment will apply in order to avoid a hard border? Is that the position, or is it also subject to being taken off the table if no agreement is reached?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
The Statement was very clear, and I hope that I was also very clear in my response to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, that we all want to honour the agreements set out in the joint report. We have also said that the withdrawal agreement and implementation Bill, which we will bring forward, will set out what is in the withdrawal agreement—including citizens’ rights, any financial settlement and the details of an implementation period—which will be implemented directly into domestic law by primary legislation.
On Northern Ireland, the Statement made clear that we have agreed a fall-back option of last resort. We simply do not believe that we will be unable to find specific solutions to the border issue; we are confident that we will do so. If we cannot, the UK will maintain full alignment with internal market and customs union rules, which currently support north/south co-operation, economic co-operation across the island of Ireland and the protection of the Belfast agreement—and will do so in future. The joint report also clearly sets out that cross-community safeguards and consent are required from the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly for any distinct arrangements in this scenario. As I said, we do not believe that it will come to that.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, in respect of that quote that the Minister has just given from paragraph 49 on the rules that support north/south co-operation and the all-Ireland economy, have the Government done a sectoral analysis or impact assessment on which aspects of the single market would not be covered by the commitment to “full alignment”? Presumably, it is a very wide field, covering agriculture, sanitary standards, consumer protection, transport, competition and environmental standards—I believe that about 142 issues were identified as being covered by north/south co-operation in Ireland. Which single market rules would not be covered by the promised full alignment? If they are rather small in number, would it not be simpler all round to stay in the single market and customs union, instead of things being so complicated?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I am afraid that the noble Baroness’s question is predicated on us not reaching a suitable outcome that we all want. I just do not accept that.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that the agreement and report not only carry forward the negotiation process, as we know was intended, but introduce a very welcome degree of flexibility to what has been a rather over-polarised situation and debate? Does she agree that, under the principle of mutual recognition negotiated long ago—which has allowed all EU member states to vary rules, regulations, taxes and other provisions very widely, as long as they share and respect the broad aims of the EU—this means that, in practice, “alignment” can be interpreted in any way that we choose, provided that it is consistent with the deep and special relationship and common sense? Is this flexibility not greatly welcome and does it not allow us to get on to the next phase in a constructive way?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I agree with my noble friend. As I say, we hope very much that the Council will agree sufficient progress on Friday so that we can move on to what we all want to do: talk about our future relationship. It is important for us to agree those terms now. As we have made clear, we are starting from a unique position of full regulatory alignment and we want to maintain our current high standards. This is a good basis for a constructive, deep and special future trading partnership.
Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)
My Lords, will the Leader accept that this Statement is still facing both ways? In saying that we are not going to stay in the single market, it is trying to put a sticking plaster over a rabbit hole which is not there. Given the deal that we struck in good faith with the Irish Republic whereby all parts of the United Kingdom will be in the same position, it is essential to stay within the single market. No trade deal, such as that referred to by the noble Lord, Lord King, can alter that fact.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
No, I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord. As we have made clear, the whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland, will leave the EU customs union and the single market, and nothing in the agreement alters that fundamental fact. I would have thought that noble Lords would be pleased that we have made progress, have reached the end of phase 1, have come to an agreement together and are looking to move forward. It would be nice if we all did that in a constructive and positive manner because we all want the best for this country and to make sure that our future is bright.
Lord Low of Dalston (CB)
My Lords, if the Government are committed to full regulatory alignment between Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland, and there is no distinction to be drawn between the position of Northern Ireland and that of the rest of the United Kingdom, does it not follow that there must be full regulatory alignment between the United Kingdom as a whole and the European Union?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
We have been clear that maintaining alignment means that we may have the same objectives but that they may be met in different ways.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
My Lords, may I congratulate the Prime Minister through my noble friend on the pragmatism that she has shown thus far? I urge my noble friend to urge the Prime Minister to show similar pragmatism in the future, because does she understand that, despite the voices of some prominent members of my own party, there is very limited support for a hard Brexit? Consequently, if we are to get approval for the ultimate outcome of these negotiations, it has to be on the basis of a very close alignment between the institutions of the European Union and those of the United Kingdom.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My Lords, as the Prime Minister’s Statement said, this is not about a hard or soft Brexit; it is about ensuring that we have a deep and special new relationship with the European Union, because we want a deal that works both for our citizens here and for the European Union. It is in all our interests to work towards that. I hope that, come Friday, when it has been acknowledged that sufficient progress has been made, we can begin taking those steps into phase 2 of the negotiations.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, the Minister implied that if the agreement is confirmed, goods and people will move totally freely between Ireland and Northern Ireland—and likewise between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. This being so, will she confirm that goods and people will move equally freely, as they do today, between Dublin and Holyhead?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
As I have said, we want to ensure that we maintain the constitutional and economic integrity of the United Kingdom. We will be working in phase 2 to look at the details of how we deal with the border issues that we have discussed. However, we have been categorical that there will be no hard border within the island of Ireland.
Lord Kilclooney (CB)
My Lords, having been through the agony of the negotiations on the Belfast agreement, I have every reason to know what the phrase “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” means. There are two things about the border: one is the movement of people and the other is the movement of trade. Trade must obviously be retained until the next stage of the negotiations with Brussels, but in so far as the movement of persons and the reference to the common travel area are concerned, can the Minister assure me that the thousands of Irish citizens who are EU citizens and who move into the United Kingdom because they want all the benefits of being British will continue to have those benefits under the common travel area?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
The joint report sets out that the common travel area with Ireland will be maintained.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
I note that the Statement gives a lot of importance to getting out from under any jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. I find that a little surprising in view of the recent report by the Institute for Government, which shows that the British Government have fewer cases before the European Court of Justice than do most other members of the European Union—and, indeed, that most of those are decided in favour of the UK. I am puzzled also as to whether the deep concern with national sovereignty and the willingness to make financial and economic concessions in order to regain this sovereignty applies to other international courts. The Leader of the House may be aware that President Trump has just attacked the arbitration tribunal of the World Trade Organization, suggesting that it is biased against the United States, that it does not respect American sovereignty and that the United States might have to leave the World Trade Organization. Do the British Government sympathise with President Trump in that suspicion of international courts, or is it is just the European Court of Justice that we object to?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
EU citizens’ rights in the UK will be upheld by implementing the agreement in our law, instead of continued EU law enforced by the EU courts. Our courts will pay due regard to EU case law as agreed at the point of exit to interpret that law as needs be, just as they decide our law now in reference to international law, where relevant, such as the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, the Leader of the House is a member of the Cabinet and therefore I am sure that she will know the answer to my question: is it the Government’s intention that at the ferry port at Belfast there will be no customs officials or immigration officers in attendance with the remit or ability to check non-UK citizens travelling to ports in Scotland, England or Wales?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
The noble Lord asks a question about implementation. I am not in a position to answer that at the moment.
Lord Deben (Con)
Will my noble friend answer a very simple question? The Statement says that there will be a large sum of money available to Britain because of our leaving the European Union. Will she promise to place before the House the details of that sum of money, how the addition is done and how it is that the Government make that statement in full and flat opposition to every independent commentator in this country?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
We have agreed a number of important principles that will apply as to how we arrive at valuations in due course. These will ensure that the process is fair to the UK. As we leave and pay off our commitments, there will be significant sums left to spend on our priorities and a precise schedule of payments will be agreed in the second phase.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)
My Lords, when we come to negotiate our future trading relationship, why do the Government not say that we will be generous and offer continuing free trade? That is, after all, much more in their exporters’ interest than it is in ours. I say this because, as the excellent Civitas analyses show, there are about 6 million jobs in the EU exporting to us and we have about 3.5 million jobs exporting to them. If the Eurocrats are selfish enough to force us to the WTO conditions instead, their exporters will pay us some £13 billion in new tariffs, whereas we will pay them only about £5 billion. As to what cash we should pay them, surely we should leave that to the very end of the negotiation, and its amount should depend on whether they have tried to mess around with the City of London in the meantime.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
We are committed to seeking continuity in our current trade and investment relationships, including those covered by EU FTAs and other preferential trading arrangements. We are working to agree arrangements with those partner countries to replicate, as far as possible, the effects of these agreements.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, the agreement envisages that our courts will have a discretion to refer cases about citizens’ rights to the European Court in Luxembourg. Do the Government intend that legislation will provide any guidance to our courts as to how they should exercise this discretion? If the Government do not provide guidance, our courts will be required to decide issues of very considerable political sensitivity.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
The ability of our courts to ask the ECJ for a view will be voluntary, very narrowly defined and time limited. Our courts can choose to ask the ECJ for a legal view on the law in relation to citizens’ rights where there is a point of law that has not arisen before. If the past is a guide, we would not expect this to happen very often; it currently happens for about two or three cases a year in this area of law. This ability will be strictly confined to those citizens’ rights as exercised under the withdrawal agreement by EU citizens who were settled here before we leave the EU. It will not extend in any way beyond that.
Lord Faulks
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, suggested that the response of the UK Government to the continued relationship with the ECJ might be typical of a general hostility towards international tribunals. Will my noble friend the Leader of the House confirm that it means no such thing and that the fact that we will no longer have a relationship with the ECJ is simply because we will no longer be a member of the European Union? We therefore do not need the ECJ to determine disputes that arise out of that membership, save for that important and limited exception referred to in relation to EU nationals, and subject of course only to whatever may be in the implementation agreement that is to follow.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I entirely agree with my noble friend, who said it far better than I did.
Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Baroness has got her sums wrong. The country is already 15% poorer as a result of the devaluation which followed Brexit and our growth rate has gone down by 1% per annum—about £20 billion, which is twice our annual contribution to the EU. We shall in fact have fewer resources for all those good causes, such as the NHS, education and housing, that she mentioned as a result of leaving the EU, not more. I ask the noble Baroness a simple question. Is it not the case that if you have no customs controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic, then Northern Ireland and the Republic are within a common customs area or customs union and that if you have no customs controls between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, then Northern Ireland and Great Britain are within a common customs area or customs union? In those circumstances, we in Great Britain are in the same common customs area or union as the Republic of Ireland and, since the Republic of Ireland will remain in the European Union, we, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland as well would all be in the same EU common customs area. Irrespective of the declarations which the Government might like to make to the contrary, no doubt for party management reasons, is the reality not that as a result of these negotiations we will, de facto, remain—and if so, I congratulate the Government on it—within the common customs area of the European Union?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I am afraid that I cannot be clearer that I have been already. The whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland, will leave the EU customs union and the EU single market. Nothing in the agreement alters that fundamental fact.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)
Given the Minister’s non-answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and her rather worrying answer to that of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, will she confirm that the United Kingdom Government, having agreed the definition of their financial obligations, will under no circumstances refuse to honour them, as a matter of honour?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
As the Prime Minister has made clear, the money is on the table in the context of agreeing our partnership for the future. If that is not agreed, then the financial offer is off the table.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, we should all thank and congratulate the Prime Minister but might I appeal to my noble friend? We have had Ministers at the Dispatch Box saying time and time again that they cannot give a running commentary on negotiations—fine. But can we please have a cessation of the running commentary from members of the Cabinet?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
All I can say to my noble friend is that the Cabinet are united in their happiness that we have reached phase 1—
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
Thank you. We hope to have reached sufficient progress on phase 1 negotiations by the end of the week and we look forward unitedly to helping to ensure that this country has the best future ahead, with a strong relationship with the EU on different terms.
Lord Higgins (Con)
My Lords, is it not increasingly apparent that there is in reality no way to avoid a hard border unless we remain in the single market or some equivalent to it? What has happened in these discussions is that the issue has been effectively passed to where it ought to have been in the first place, namely, the negotiations on trade. I welcome that fudge because it means that the process continues, but at the end of the day there is no way to avoid a hard border without the equivalent of the single market.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I am afraid that I do not accept that premise because we believe the best way to avoid a hard border is to negotiate the right trading relationship between the UK and the EU, and that is what we will now be able to do. Discussions on the border will be a critical part of the phase 2 negotiations.
Lord Soley (Lab)
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I heard the Minister say that during the period of payments—which I welcome, incidentally—trade will continue on current terms. I think that was the phrase that was used. If that is right, what does that mean if it does not mean either the single market or the customs union or something of that nature? Admittedly it is only for the period in which the payments continue, but for that period, trade continues under current terms, which is, I think, the Statement the Minister read out.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
It is actually during the implementation period that the UK’s and the EU’s access to each other’s markets could continue on current terms. During the implementation period, we would stay in all EU regulators and agencies and take part in existing security measures.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
My Lords, it was very interesting to see how worried the European Union became when there was a risk of the UK crashing out, showing, I think, that we have a stronger negotiating hand than some might think, if we keep our nerve. Contrary to what some have said, some fear that regulatory alignment means a soft Brexit by stealth, making us a rule taker in relation to all future EU rules rather than a rule maker. Is this a valid concern?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
As I have said, maintaining alignment means that we may have the same objectives but we may well want to do something in a different way. However, in discussing our future trading relationship, we should also understand that we are in a unique position with full regulatory alignment at this point. We want to maintain high standards going forward, so we believe this is an excellent basis for a strong future relationship.
Baroness Kramer (LD)
My Lords, perhaps I can ask the Minister for clarity. She talked about the situation going forward. Is it correct—I shall be glad for her to correct me if I am wrong—that the European Union has trade treaties, I think 58, with other countries, most of which include a most favoured nation clause so that any if offer of a trade treaty is made to a third party, such as the UK, similar terms have to be made available to every country on that most favoured nation list? Is that not the reason why the notion of Canada-plus-plus-plus becomes an extremely difficult challenge?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
We are discussing with our trade partners how to ensure continuity and provide certainty for businesses by transitionally adopting existing EU trade agreements. This will be a technical exercise rather than a renegotiation of existing terms. The Trade Bill will provide measures to ensure that agreements with third countries can carry over and be fully implemented within UK law.
Lord Naseby (Con)
My noble friend will understand that there is deep concern about the financial settlement, but should the guiding light of Her Majesty’s Government not be value for money? It is not the absolute figure that is important but that any money spent is real value for money for the British people.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My noble friend is right that the Prime Minister has also been clear that the UK will honour its commitments and obligations. We have agreed a fair settlement of commitments we have made while a member of the EU in the spirit of our future partnership.
Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB)
My Lords, I welcome the fact that over the next eight years, our courts will be able, in the event of dispute as to citizen’s rights, to refer the case to the ECJ for interpretation. But are there any circumstances in which the Minister could foresee that, having obtained such an interpretation although the case itself would be determined by the UK courts, they could actually refuse to follow it?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
As I have already said, the ability of our courts to ask the ECJ for a view will be voluntary, very narrowly defined and time limited. The courts can choose to ask the ECJ for a legal view on the law in relation to citizens’ rights where there is a point of law that has not arisen before, but our courts will make the final judgment on each case, not the ECJ.
Lord Borwick (Con)
My Lords, will my noble friend comment on media reports that the financial settlement outlined in last week’s report is substantially lower than many earlier estimates of what the EU was demanding from us?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
We have agreed a number of important principles that will apply on how we arrive at valuations in due course. Our commitment, in terms of the numbers that are out there, is the equivalent of around four years’ full membership, two of which will be covered by the implementation period. We have agreed with the EU the scope of the UK’s commitments. The bills cannot go wider than that, and the noble Lord is absolutely right that we expect the settlement to come in significantly below many of the initial projections made.
Baroness Donaghy (Lab)
My Lords, will the Leader of the House tell us what will be implemented during the implementation period?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
The implementation period will ensure that the changes necessary for the new relationship will be put in place, as well, as I have said, as a framework based on the existing structure of EU rules and regulations.
Lord Bridges of Headley (Con)
My Lords, I obviously applaud the Prime Minister for getting us to the base camp of the negotiations. It is much to her credit that she showed such persistence last week. Following on from the last question, however, I urge my noble friend to urge her colleagues to bring as much honesty and clarity as possible to the next phase of the negotiations. There is still talk of the implementation period being one in which we implement the final treaty. With due regard to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, I struggle to find within Article 50 any reference that gives the European Union the remit to negotiate a full new treaty between now and the end of March 2019. Therefore my understanding is that at best the British Government would be able to negotiate a heads of terms with the European Union, but nothing more. Would my noble friend care to clarify whether that is or is not the case?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My noble friend is correct that there will be many elements during the implementation period. We will now start to discuss that with the EU—hopefully come Friday, once we have made sufficient progress. We are extremely pleased that Donald Tusk has indicated that he wishes to get on with discussions on the implementation period as quickly as possible, because we need to clarify all these issues so that we can move on.
Viscount Ridley (Con)
My Lords, I listened carefully to the comments from the Benches opposite, including those of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. Can my noble friend go a little beyond her remit and speculate as to what she thinks the Labour Party’s position is on any of these issues this week?
Lord Tugendhat (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it is not helpful to keep talking about a Norwegian, Swiss or Canadian model in the way that people are, since we are much bigger than Norway, we have many much closer links with the EU than Switzerland and we are much closer than Canada? One of the most important two things that she said in answer to a number of questions was that we are looking for a bespoke deal that reflects the particular circumstances of the United Kingdom and its relationship with the other members of the EU. The second was that we are not starting from scratch. We are starting with a common edifice, and the question will be how much of the edifice we maintain and how much is taken away. That is a very central point, which a number of people have failed to grasp.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My noble friend is absolutely right. We are indeed in an unprecedented position of starting with the same rules and regulations in our discussions and will of course maintain our unequivocal commitment to free trade and high standards.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, it may be of help to think of the implementation period as one during which, knowing what the ultimate position is going to be, we prepare to reach it.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
Will the noble Baroness help me on this question of full regulatory alignment between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic? Who is going to determine that? Will it be the Supreme Court of Ireland, the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom or the European Court of Justice? She said about 10 minutes ago that the present situation is one of full regulatory alignment. What happens if the status quo changes?
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
As I have said on a number of occasions, alignment is about pursing the same objectives. The same goals can be achieved by different means, and it does not need to mean regulatory harmonisation. Indeed, the Taoiseach has said that not everything has to be the same.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, the Prime Minister’s Statement twice repeats that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. Does the noble Baroness not think it a good idea that the Government should work up a plan B, for no deal, because in that way we will get a much better deal with plan A? The great advantage of plan B, and leaving with no deal, is that we cease to pay into the European budget.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
We are absolutely focused on getting a good outcome that works for both the UK and the EU. We believe it is in both sides’ interests to do that, but yes, we have a duty to plan for the alternative, as any responsible Government would.
Lord Blackwell (Con)
My Lords, the House will note my particular interest in financial services. I welcome the Statement. Will the Government pay particular attention in phase 2 of the talks to the benefits to both the UK and the European Union of continuing trade in financial services and the role that the City of London plays as an asset for the whole of Europe?
Business of the House
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Excerpts(6 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
That the debates on the motions in the names of Lord Clark of Windermere and Lord Liddle set down for today shall each be limited to 2½ hours.