Baroness Clark of Kilwinning
Main Page: Baroness Clark of Kilwinning (Labour - Life peer)Department Debates - View all Baroness Clark of Kilwinning's debates with the HM Treasury
(12 years ago)
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Rachel Reeves
I thank the hon. Gentleman. His constituents have had a hard time in the past few days. Older people will be hit by the changes to pensioners’ tax allowances, and of course the pasty industry in Cornwall and the south-west will be hit hard, so there is a double hit for his region.
We need to remember the situation that most pensioners face. They do not have ways of making up for a loss of income by going out and finding work. That is what it means to be retired. They are therefore particularly vulnerable to rises in the cost of living and to unanticipated changes in their financial circumstances. The Office of Tax Simplification report notes that the current age-related allowance was
“introduced to reflect potentially higher costs of living of older people.”
That was why Winston Churchill introduced it in 1925. As the OTS has stated:
“Older people can struggle to meet living costs. They are often on a fixed income once they have retired, or perhaps on a declining income in real terms where flat annuities have been purchased”.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
I understand that one reason why the age-related allowance was originally introduced was the higher cost of heating when people are older. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is particularly important now given the rising cost of fuel, and even more so in parts of the country where the weather is worse, such as the north and Scotland?
Rachel Reeves
It has been pretty cold in my constituency in Leeds this winter, as well. My hon. Friend is right to make that point, because people face many extra costs as they get older, such as in heating their home.
Katy Clark
If the hon. Gentleman believes that the allowance is such a glaring anomaly, why was there not something about it in his party’s manifesto?
Ben Gummer
The hon. Lady asks about the party manifesto. I had hoped to discuss the broader issues and great challenges facing us. Manifestos are, by their nature, broad brush, and this is such a tiny change to the tax system in the grand scheme of what the Treasury has to deal with. It is entirely right that the Government are, bravely, addressing it now. In all honesty, would either party go down to such detail in any future manifesto? It is entirely right that the Government are saying, “This is an anomaly. It is incorrect and unfair, and what is more, it is one of the many anomalies that are unaffordable in the long term.”
Ben Gummer
I will, but before I do, let me say in response to that intervention that there are many pensioners in my constituency who are on very low incomes. They are suffering considerably at the moment. Most of them do not have incomes anywhere close to the current allowance. What we are trying to do—in improving their lot through the triple lock guarantee, as well as protecting the pension credit, the winter fuel payments, the cold weather payments and the free TV licences—is protect the benefits of those who are least able to look after themselves.
My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) is right in another sense. It is not just today’s vulnerable pensioners whom we must look after and seek to help, but the vulnerable pensioners in 20 and 30 years’ time. If we do not make changes now and try to protect the state’s income to some degree, we will not be in a position even to afford the benefits and pensions that we promise people now, let alone to anything like that degree in 20 or 30 years’ time, and that will be a problem for both parties.
Dr Whiteford
I will try to keep my remarks short. I have listened to today’s debate with great interest. First and foremost, it is important that we take proper account of the long-term erosion of pensioners’ incomes over the past three decades, since the link between earnings and the state pension was broken, and of the more recent pressures in the wake of the financial crisis.
The changes to age-related allowances that we are discussing will not affect the poorest pensioners or those who are comfortably off. They will, however, affect the 40% of pensioners who have modest incomes. Those people have saved for their retirement, and 4.4 million older people will be worse off as a result of the changes.
Katy Clark
I agree with everything that the hon. Lady has said so far. Does she agree that a subject that we do not discuss often enough is that of pensioners who rely on their savings? Low interest rates mean that they are currently getting a far lower income from their savings than they had envisaged.
Dr Whiteford
I absolutely agree. In fact, that was one of the points that I wanted to make, because that subject has been eclipsed in the debate about the changes.
The Government have made great play of the recent increases to the state pension, and seem to suggest that they will somehow offset the changes to the tax allowances. As the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) pointed out, however, we must remember that that is simply an inflationary rise. It will only keep pace with prices; it is not an increase. It is only a small step in the right direction towards restoring pensioners’ incomes to a level that most of us would recognise as providing a decent standard of living.
I have mentioned in the House before that the way in which pensioners experience inflation can differ markedly from the way in which the general population as a whole experiences it. One of the most obvious and significant examples of that relates to heating and domestic fuel costs. Retired people are more likely to have to heat their homes during the day, while the rest of us enjoy the benefit of our workplace heating systems. Many pensioners also find it harder to keep warm because of their age and the fact that they are not moving about so much. So any inflation in the cost of energy is felt disproportionately by pensioners, and nowhere more so than in those parts of these islands that experience consistently colder weather.
Last year, we saw sharp and dramatic increases in home energy costs, which played a big part in driving inflation up to over 5%. Energy prices have come down since that peak, but I heard on the news this morning that some economic commentators believe that inflation this year is going to be well above the Bank of England forecasts that the Government are using, and that we could experience inflation of over 3% this year as well. The welcome increases in the state pension have only kept it in line with inflation and might not keep it in line with inflation as it is experienced by people of pensionable age. That is why the Government’s argument that the changes to age-related tax allowances are compensated for by the increases in the state pension is somewhat spurious. In real terms, this tax grab squeezes the incomes of pensioners on modest incomes.
It is also all too easy to forget that pensioners have already paid a heavy price for the financial crisis. Those pensioners affected by these new changes to age-related allowances are in many cases the same people who saw the value of their savings and investments plummet in the wake of the financial crisis. Since then, they have had to contend with record low interest rates, coupled with high inflation. As the Treasury Committee reminded us earlier this week, quantitative easing, whatever its intended consequences, has had some very nasty side effects for those reaching retirement age and looking to buy an annuity in the last few years.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
I welcome the Budget, which has been a Budget for enterprise and growth, and I would defend the reduction in the top rate of tax, which seems to be the Opposition’s main bone of contention. I think older people have a stake in the future of our economy just as great as everybody else. There is no doubt in my mind that the introduction of that 50p top rate of tax by the last Government—right in the last throes of the last Government—was extremely damaging to our country’s image as a place of business, growth and prosperity. I am glad that the Chancellor has taken the brave step of reversing it in part.
Katy Clark
The hon. Lady will be aware that the income of the very rich has increased by 20% over the last two years since her Government came to power. Politics is, of course, a question of choices. Does she not think that our choice should be to try to get money from those people rather than from pensioners on modest incomes?
Margot James
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. I notice that she cited the last two years over which the incomes of the very wealthy have increased, but she might equally well have quoted the last 12 years of the Labour Government, during which I believe top earners did extremely well. It is a question of choices, and I feel that the Chancellor has made the right choice. In fact, it is a set of choices: it is not just a choice between one thing and another. I think it essential for this country not to be out of kilter with the rest of the world in terms of its top rate of income tax.
Graham Evans
I have given away several times. I am bringing my speech to a conclusion.
Finally, I welcome the Chancellor’s announcement that people will now receive a personal tax statement detailing exactly how much tax they have paid and what it has been spent on by the Government. This is a great move for transparency. I know that Labour are nervous about what will happen when people see, in black and white, how much of their taxes go on paying interest on the last Government’s debt.
This is an excellent Bill. It is a radical and reforming Bill. It comes from a Government firmly on the side of business, working people and pensioners, and it tells the world that Britain is open for business.
Katy Clark
Thank you, Mr Williams, for giving me the opportunity to follow on from that Second Reading speech by the hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans). I will resist the temptation of talking about the Budget because I had that opportunity in Monday’s Second Reading debate.
Katy Clark
I think that many Government Members must feel ashamed of this policy, particularly given that it was not in the Conservative party’s manifesto. Many people who voted for the Conservatives, particularly pensioners, will be disappointed that they have introduced this policy.
We have heard numerous comments from Government Members giving the impression that the policy would affect super-rich pensioners, but, in reality, pensioners on modest incomes will be affected. It is pensioners on incomes between £10,500 and £29,400 who will be affected by the change. I do not think that anyone in this House can really believe that these are rich people; rather, we are talking about people on modest or middle incomes.
Alun Cairns
Does the hon. Lady accept that when the last Chancellor froze the age allowance and the personal allowance at the same time, pensioners on much lower incomes were affected?
Katy Clark
That was done as part of a range of measures. We have been talking about a package of measures today, and what we know is that pensioners will be disproportionately affected by the range of measures that this Government are steamrollering through. I will return to that later, but the hon. Gentleman’s point also highlights the fact that the changes proposed at that time treated everybody, of all ages, in the same way. In this debate we are trying to focus on the impact on pensioners of the freeze in what is an age-related benefit. We have heard a number of contributions that have highlighted how pensioners are struggling as a result of many of the Government’s policies, as well as the economic situation we are in, which the Government are not trying to alleviate.
My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) put this debate in the bigger picture by highlighting the fact that the £3 billion that the Government will save as a result of the proposed change will be used to help some of the richest people in the country. The big picture is that the richest in this country are getting richer, at a time when the living standards of those on modest or low incomes are going down. We have heard a number of attacks on the last Labour Government in this debate, but the reality is that the figures show that the living standards of those on low, modest or middle incomes went up. There was also an increase in the living standards of the wealthiest in the country, but we are now seeing the living standards of ordinary people—people on low or modest incomes—plummeting, while at the same time we see huge and escalating increases in the incomes of rich individuals and many corporations.
Mr McKenzie
We hear much from Government Members about the message that this Budget is sending the world—that Britain is open for business, and so on. What message does my hon. Friend think the Budget is sending to our pensioners up and down the country, and particularly those on incomes that they have worked hard for, by setting money aside and preparing for their pensions?
Katy Clark
The word “dignity” has been used a number of times in this debate. It is an important word, particularly given the proposed change, which has been put forward at short notice. We have had debates about pensioner income over many years in this place. We have heard a number of proposals, from parties in all parts of the House, that would change the financial position of those reaching retirement. However, a common theme has been the importance of giving as much notice as possible of any change, particularly when dealing with people’s incomes in retirement, so that people can make the changes necessary to cope with the changing world.
One of the problems with the proposed change, which will come into effect in 2013-14, is that it represents not a minor or technical change, as many Government Members have said, but quite a substantial drop in income at short notice for people on modest or medium incomes. My hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) highlighted the impact on those who turn 65 in 2013-14, who could lose £323 a year, which represents a significant amount, not a technical change. Therefore, to answer my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie), people in those income brackets will be very disappointed by the change. That is one reason I have highlighted the fact that the measure was not in the manifesto. If the Government think that it is an important part of their long-term pension reform, it should have been in the manifesto. It should have been consulted on and thought through, and a great deal more notice should have been given to the individuals affected.
Charlie Elphicke
A key concern of mine is to understand why there should be a higher personal allowance for senior citizens than for hard-pressed families who are struggling to get by. Why does the hon. Lady think that that is justified?
Katy Clark
I mentioned this in an intervention. At the time of the allowance’s introduction, a number of reasons were given, one of which was pensioners’ higher heating costs. A full explanation was given during those debates of the higher and additional costs that are associated with retirement. Those higher costs of living have a disproportionate impact on pensioners. In the debates on pensions that we have had over the past few months, a great deal has been said about the higher costs that pensioners face, and about the possibility of having a different form of indexation for pensions, given that pensioners tend to have different living costs from the rest of the population.
Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
I have listened carefully to the hon. Lady’s point about pensioners’ higher living costs, but does she not accept that allowances such as the winter fuel allowance reflect the Government’s acknowledgement of their different costs? A young mum at home with her baby, who would also need to heat her home, would not get that allowance.
Katy Clark
Many pensioners, and many among the general population, are disappointed that the Government have not lived up to their election promises on that allowance.
The point that I was making is that pensioners need more time to adjust. I welcome the increase in the personal allowance—I believe that there should be higher personal allowances for everyone—but if the Government are going ahead with this particular kind of proposal, they should give people many years’ notice so that they can prepare for the changes. Given the situation that pensions are now in, which I will go into in more detail if I have time, this is the wrong time to be clobbering pensioners in this way.
Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con)
Are we not in this situation partly because of the failure of reform over the past 30 years? Despite the fact that people are living longer and longer, nothing has been done. We have now abolished the compulsory retirement age, which will enable many older people to carry on working and earning more income. Why was that not done under the previous Government?
Katy Clark
The hon. Lady is attempting to rewrite history. She will know that the previous Labour Government brought in a whole range of reforms to take account of the increase in the living age. My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) highlighted the fact that that increase is far from uniform, owing to health inequalities. Life expectancy has not increased so much among people on lower incomes and from lower socio-economic groups, for example.
Ian Swales
The hon. Lady mentions the need to give notice of the changes. Does she know how much notice was given of the freezing of the age-related allowance in 2010-11?
Katy Clark
Government Members keep trying to return to that point. As I have said, the freeze applied to all allowances, and it is not comparable to what we are debating. This is a specific debate about long-term Government policy towards pensioners and the long-term cumulative effect that this change will have.
As I say, this is the wrong time to come forward with changes of this nature. We heard a well-informed contribution from the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on the situation faced by pensioners who rely on private savings. I suspect that many of us as constituency MPs have had a considerable number of representations from individuals who have planned their pension and retirement savings over many years on the assumption that higher rates of interest would apply, enabling them to live off the savings they had made over a long period. I very much hope that in 2013, when these changes come into force, the economic situation will be different, but I suspect that those pensioners will be in a similar position. That is another powerful reason why now is an incredibly bad time to make changes of this kind. In my view, they should have been introduced with far greater notice.
The Government should know that pensioners are being disproportionately affected by the policies they are pursuing. We hear a great deal from Government Members about their ambitious deficit reduction plan—so far, of course, we have only seen the deficit increase. What we are seeing locally, and I suspect they will be seeing it, too—[Interruption.] Government Members are well aware that they are borrowing more and that the deficit is going up. In their constituencies as well as mine, however, local people will be experiencing the start of draconian cuts in public services, which will have and are already having a disproportionate effect on those in retirement. Even before the current economic difficulties, we were all aware of the struggle councils were having in trying to provide the social services required for our changing demographic and our ageing population.
Mark Garnier
The hon. Lady really must get the point about the deficit right. The deficit has been reduced from more than £150 billion when this Government first came to power to, I think, £132 billion this year. She may be getting confused between deficit and debt, and Government debt is going up, but it is going up because we have such catastrophic public finances as a result of the previous Government.
Katy Clark
The hon. Gentleman is well aware that borrowing is going up. As I was saying, despite the fact that the Government are failing and have consistently failed to meet their own targets, the reality is that the cuts in public spending they have already made—and they propose more for the coming years—are having a disproportionate effect on the pensioner community.
Katy Clark
I hope to come to a conclusion shortly, but I will give way for the last time.
Stephen Williams
The hon. Lady has twice said that pensioners are disproportionately affected by the collection of measures the Government are introducing to reduce the deficit. May I quote what Paul Johnson, the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, said about this particular measure? He said:
“Despite this morning’s headlines, this looks like a relatively modest tax increase on a group hitherto well sheltered from tax and benefit changes. From this Budget we calculate that pensioners will lose on average one quarter of one per cent of their income in 2014”.
How does she square that—the Opposition often like quoting the IFS—with pensioners being disproportionately affected by what the Government are doing?
Katy Clark
I think that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents will be very interested by his complacent approach. I suspect that he is well aware of the impact that the Government’s cuts are having on his constituents as well as mine, and well aware of the pain that his constituents are suffering. I am sure that he is also aware that pensioners rely disproportionately on social services and the public sector, and that the forthcoming cuts will make life particularly difficult for them.