Oral Answers to Questions

Anne McLaughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2021 Commons Chamber

[Robert Buckland]

I agree with the noble Lord that the Act has played an important part in helping many applicants with important cases that have been brought before the courts. However, I can reassure the hon. Lady that the review is all about the framework of the Act itself, not about the scope of the convention rights that are scheduled within it, and the two issues should not be confused, either accidentally or intentionally.

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP) [V]]

I would like to start by noting the focus and perspicacity with which my predecessor, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry), approached this role.

In my previous role as equalities spokesperson, I noted a change in narrative from those on the Government Benches, who had started to deny the existence of structural inequality based on, for example, race or disability. In my new role, I note that the same Government Members seem resistant to properly explaining the need for or aims of their review of the Human Rights Act. Are the two linked, and do this Government simply not recognise human rights and the need for robust legislation?

[Robert Buckland]

May I welcome the hon. Lady to her new role? I well remember working with her on the Investigatory Powers Bill in the 2015 Parliament. I will not dwell upon the internal grief of the Scottish National party; I will simply pay tribute to the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry), who always prosecuted her case with extreme perspicacity.

Let me reassure the hon. Lady in one word: no. They are not linked. As I have already said, this is not about the ambit of convention rights; it is a sensible and measured review of the mechanism that we have here domestically. It involves representatives from all corners of the United Kingdom, very much including Scotland. It has a balanced panel with a diversity of thought, and I am confident that it will produce robust and important recommendations.

[Anne McLaughlin]

I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his answer and his welcome, but I am not the only one questioning this Government’s commitment, because the globally respected Human Rights Watch recently published a report stating that this UK Government showed a

“willingness to set aside human rights for the sake of political expediency and a worrying disdain for the rule of law.”

Is it wrong, and if so, can he offer any reason as to why it might have come to that conclusion?

[Robert Buckland]

Yes, it is totally wrong. In this Lord Chancellor, and indeed in every Minister, there is an absolute understanding and a deep respect for the rule of law, which underpins the United Kingdom Government’s approach internationally, representing a force for good in world affairs and underpinning what is a proud liberal democracy. I and my colleagues will stand up steadfastly for that, and we do so with confidence and clarity.

Prison Officers Association: Withdrawal from Voluntary Tasks

Anne McLaughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gyimah]

The Chairman of the Justice Committee makes an important point. We have made progress on pay with the Prison Officers Association, and we have had progress on health and safety; indeed, today we were to meet the POA to discuss pensions. I absolutely agree with the Justice Secretary that today’s action only puts prisoners and prison officers, who work very hard, at risk.

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

As we have heard, prison staff in England and Wales have been demoralised by understaffing, underpayment and overcrowding in prisons. While the Government have offered a pay rise to prison staff to encourage further recruitment and retention of current staff, as we have heard, that will apply only in the south-east and London. The Minister said that that is not novel, but it does not address the issue of morale across the board.

This is a matter for England and Wales, but I am here to encourage the Minister to look at the Scottish Government’s attempts to reduce the number of people in prisons by moving away from ineffective, short-term prison sentences and making more use of community alternatives. Does he agree that he should concentrate efforts on such schemes? Never mind the marketing budget he spoke of to recruit people, what will he do to ensure that newly recruited prison officers are retained and that the morale of all prison staff, who already have a very stressful job, is restored?

[Mr Gyimah]

The hon. Lady is right—the morale of prison officers is important to us. However, let me be clear: we had a pay deal endorsed by the Prison Officers Association towards the end of last year that was rejected. That pay deal is now a matter for the independent pay review body. We have submitted evidence and the POA can submit its evidence, so we are taking action on pay for the Prison Service as a whole. We have also put in place additional allowances for 31 jails where it is particularly hard to recruit. Further to that, we have created a new progression opportunity for 2,000 prison officers across the country, and today we were due to be in talks about pensions. We value prison officers and the work they do, and we want to support them, but unlawful strike action is not the way to progress. It would actually achieve the opposite, which is to put prison officers at risk.

Access to Justice

Anne McLaughlin Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2017 Westminster Hall

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris) on securing this debate and giving us the opportunity to take stock of the human impact of the reforms to access to justice. Every time I think about the way in which this Government have ensured that ordinary people are denied even the opportunity to try to get justice, I cannot help but think of the words my parents used to dread: it’s not fair—and it really isn’t, Mr Davies.

One of the four objectives of the reforms was apparently to

“discourage unnecessary and adversarial litigation at the public expense”.

I cannot disagree with that sentiment, but I have been working with a constituent who some people would argue falls into that category. Indeed, some have written him off as vexatious. There is a Scots word we use when someone has not had access to justice and is like a dog with a bone: the word is “thrawn”, and my constituent has had to be. He is a whistleblower: someone who tried to do the right thing—and trust me, he was doing the right thing. He is someone who believes in justice.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Anne McLaughlin]

If the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not mind, I will struggle to get to the end of my speech without fainting. I am not well today. Unless he wants a medical emergency, I will carry on and try to get to the end—do not worry, I am not actually going to faint.

As I was saying, my constituent is a whistleblower trying to do the right thing. In trying to help others find their voice and hold power to account, he appears to have become a victim of it. He told me of repeated bullying in the workplace as a result of the whistleblowing, which continued when he was on statutory sick leave, undermining his already deteriorating mental health. Access to an employment tribunal, secured by legal aid, has been a lifeline, but it has taken long, thrawn years to get to a position where the might of an institution can be questioned. He will have his day in court, but had he lived in England or Wales he simply would not be able to afford it. That is not me saying, “Scotland good, England and Wales bad”; what I am saying is that it is not fair.

It is not fair on the people who in 2015 found themselves unable to access justice. Statistics provided by the TUC and Unison comparing cases brought in the first three months of 2013 with cases brought in the first three months of 2015 showed the following reductions—I think some have been mentioned already—in the number of cases for the most common types of claims: working time directive, down 78%; unauthorised deductions from wages, down 56%; unfair dismissal, down 72%; equal pay, down 58%; breach of contract, down 75%; and sex discrimination, down 68%.

Maternity Action said that since the fees were introduced there has been a 40% drop in claims for pregnancy-related detriment or dismissal. Is the Minister proud of that record? Does he truly believe that all those additional people in previous years were bringing vexatious—or frivolous, as the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West said—claims?

Another area of law removed from legal aid was housing. My constituent, Maisie, is an elderly woman with a range of health issues that have negatively impacted on her ability to care for herself and sustain her tenancy. After a small house fire, her son moved in to support her. John balanced his own parenting responsibilities to his son from a past marriage with his commitment to his studies and his mother. They lived in cramped and totally unsuitable conditions and found themselves more or less ignored by their housing association, which refused to put in the disability adaptations they so badly needed because they had asked three years previously to be moved. For the housing association, it was simply not worth the money because they were going to move, anyway.

Offers of accommodation were not forthcoming and this 80-year-old woman and her carer son were trapped. They have now been rehoused in far superior accommodation and are very happy, but the housing association did what they could have done three years previously for two reasons. First, my team and the Legal Services Agency, a wonderful Glasgow charitable law centre, quoted the relevant provisions of the Human Rights Act to remind it of its responsibilities; and, secondly, there was a threat of legal action. That was possible because my constituents could claim legal aid, as they lived in Scotland. As it happens, the housing association saw sense and things did not get that far, but if a similar thing were to happen to a constituent of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West, the threat of legal action would be taken with a pinch of salt. That is not right. I thank the Legal Services Agency and my team, because now the 80-year-old woman in question can live out her days with her son in comfort and dignity.

On Sunday, the Prime Minister promised to introduce wide-ranging reforms to correct what she called the “burning injustices” in modern society. She proposed a “shared society”; she also proposed to lead a “one-nation” Government, working for all and not the “privileged few”. She said that the Government’s role is to

“encourage and nurture these relationships and institutions where it can, and to correct the injustice and unfairness that divides us wherever it is found.”

How on earth can she square that with taking away the means to correct those burning injustices from all but those who can afford to pay high legal fees? There are many people relying on us in Parliament and willing us to make the right decisions. I want to be able to tell them confidently that when something is unfair, it will be condemned by us in this place and changed. The situation I have outlined needs to be changed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Anne McLaughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gyimah]

Our consultation proposals make it very clear that when a driver has consumed drugs or alcohol and then kills someone, and if there is sufficient evidence to charge that driver with careless or dangerous driving, he or she could face a life sentence. Obviously it is for the Crown Prosecution Service to prosecute on the basis of the evidence, and it is for the courts to hand down the relevant sentence. I look forward to discussing the details of that specific case with the Beresfords later this afternoon.

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

A constituent of mine who has pleural plaques is raising an action against his former employers, of whom there are many because of the nature of his work. His claim is subject to a time bar and must be submitted by the end of the year. However, he cannot obtain a list of his employers because Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs says that that will take 321 days. I am sure that he would appreciate it if the Secretary of State asked the Treasury to make an exception.

[Elizabeth Truss]

I shall be happy to look into the case with the hon. Lady.

Oral Answers to Questions

Anne McLaughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Lady raises a very good point. There is a huge amount of sympathy across the political divide for the individual about whom she spoke. She will appreciate, however, that it would be inappropriate for me to pre-empt what will appear in the Queen’s Speech.

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

In order to avoid discriminating against people with disabilities, will the Minister confirm that personal independence payments will not be used in calculations that determine whether or not someone is entitled to help with employment tribunal cases?

[Mr Vara]

Much consideration is given when assessing the criteria to be taken into account. The Ministry of Justice, the Department for Work and Pensions and others are involved, and it would be inappropriate for me to make a decision right now from the Dispatch Box in the way the hon. Lady asks me to do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Anne McLaughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 26th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

On the advice of organisations such as Families Outside, the Scottish Government have been trialling community sentencing for women serving sentences of six months or less, in order to reduce reoffending. Given that early indications suggest that that is working, will the Minister commit to looking at rolling it out across the whole United Kingdom?

[Caroline Dinenage]

I am keen to look at the Scottish model and see what progress has been made. I am also keen to intervene earlier in women’s offending journey to make sure that the right wrap-around services are put in place to try and divert as many people as possible away from ending up in prison, because we know that every woman in prison represents a potentially broken family and children potentially taken into care.

Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords]

Anne McLaughlin Excerpts

Wednesday 20th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

I thank the shadow Minister for a balanced speech that contained some well-judged comments. I also thank my right hon. Friend the Minister for his courtesy when I took a delegation to him from the National AIDS Trust, Stonewall, Millivres Prowler and Boyz magazine to discuss this topic.

It is clear not just from this debate, but from the debate that has been raging in the gay press over the past few months, that there is considerable concern over the need to ban poppers. What has come to the fore over the past few months while I have been working on the topic is the complete lack of empirical data one way or the other. I appreciate that the Home Office believes—I have no reason to think that this belief is not genuine—that deaths have occurred from the use of poppers. However, that evidence has never been forthcoming.

I therefore decided to do a bit of research of my own. I would like to draw attention to some American research, particularly that of Dr Thomas Hall of the University of California in Los Angeles, who gave evidence to the Gay Times for a report on the effects of isopropyl nitrite. I will not quote the whole document, you will be pleased to know, Madam Deputy Speaker, but he said:

“There is very little specific research on the health effects of alkyl nitrites other than amyl nitrite.”

He went on to say:

“My summary statement would be that in the grand scheme of drugs of abuse, the risks from nitrite poppers are fairly benign… Isopropyl nitrite and other nitrite poppers appear to be far less harmful to the body in general than chronic alcohol consumption.”

I then looked at The New England Journal of Medicine, which stated in 2010:

“To our knowledge, over the past 10 years, there have been only two case reports of visual loss after inhalation of poppers, and the anatomical basis of this injury remains elusive.”

Finally on medical research, I turned to the US Department of Health and Human Services report of January 2014. It stated:

“To date, use of alkyl nitrites as a psychoactive substance among MSM”—

men who have sex with men—

“has received little attention in addiction textbooks, where they are subsumed among other inhalants.”

We have heard about that today. The report continues:

“This is unfortunate, because lumping these disparate agents together based on mode of administration”—

that is, inhalation—

“obscures substantial differences in both mechanism and typical risk between alkyl nitrites, which act on a specific…pathway, and inhaled solvents and propellants”

that have other effects. That is about the sum of the medical evidence that I could find.

In the absence of medical evidence or hard facts in the UK, I wrote to the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs. The chairman could not have been more blunt. He said that poppers were

“not seen to be capable of having harmful effects”.

There has been talk of a medicinal benefit to poppers, which I thought was an interesting turn of phrase until I received an email. I have to bow to the knowledge of our SNP colleagues, because it was from a gentleman from Croy in Inverness. He said: “Alkyl nitrites are carried, used and, when the need arises, shared by many people who work in the countryside as the first line of treatment if one is bitten by an adder.”

I confess that adders are not common in Finchley and Golders Green. Mr Joyce of Croy went on to say:

“A substantial number of people are bitten each year in Britain and the bite is rarely fatal, but whether that is because the venom is not particularly powerful against modern healthy humans or because treatment, with Alkyl nitrite or one of the eight known anti-venoms, is almost always administered very quickly is a question that is open to debate.”

That email shows that there is a conflict between the views that are held and what limited information and fact are out there in the public domain.

I support the view that there is a need to provide up-to-date empirical evidence. There also needs to be proportionality. Everything that we do carries a risk, whether it is smoking or anything else. If one drinks bleach, one will be harmed, but we are not proposing to ban bleach. When we seek to control, regulate or ban anything, we must deal with it in the round and consider the proportionality of doing so.

I welcome the response to the Home Affairs Committee report, because it states that an investigation will be under way shortly into the impact of the ban on the relationships of gay men and women. I am told that this issue affects not just gay men, but gay women. The Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, whom I would like to call my right hon. Friend, talked about anal sex. That is quite a crude way of saying that poppers can facilitate sex, through the relaxation of muscles. However, this is not just about the physical side of a relationship. If people want their relationship to be as intimate as possible and poppers facilitate that, they are an important element in the emotional wellbeing of that couple. Therefore, if we are talking about the medicinal benefits, we have to include the emotional and mental health benefits that the use of poppers in a relationship can bring.

When we are talking about risks—I have mentioned proportionality—it is important that we do not start banning things on the basis of one or two incidents. There has to be a significant risk of significant harm to a significant number of people, otherwise we would be banning cigarettes and alcohol tomorrow.

I say to the Minister that the investigation and report must be as open and transparent as possible. I ask him to give an assurance when he responds that evidence will be taken not just from organisations such as Public Health England, elements of the NHS and the ACMD, but organisations such as the National AIDS Trust, the Terrence Higgins Trust and Stonewall. It should also be taken from organisations such as Millivres Prowler, which I believe is the largest retailer of poppers in the UK, because it has a strong, relevant and up-to-date evidence bank of how poppers are used and how they are sold. Because it is a reputable retailer, it also has an enormous amount of data on the illegal import of the more dangerous poppers that are coming in through the internet. I hope that the Minister will also say that evidence will be taken from the international bodies, a few of which I mentioned earlier, that have done medical research into the benefits or disbenefits of the use of poppers.

Finally, if the Home Office decides that there is a risk that needs to be mitigated, but that an outright ban is not necessary, I urge it to consider licensing poppers for sale through sex shops. That would allow some level of control, regulation and protection, without the need for an outright ban, which might lead people to be exposed to all sorts of underground drugs.

There is a lot of work to be done. I welcome the swift action of the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). Members might think that my conclusion will be that I will support Opposition amendment 5, and I have to say that the Opposition have spoken a lot of sense. However, I will support the Government because I want an exemption based on empirical evidence. If poppers are exempted by the summer recess, as outlined in the response to the Home Affairs Committee report, that exemption could not be easily overturned on the whim of a future Home Office Minister, because it would be based on empirical evidence, whatever it says. On that basis, I will support the Government on this issue.

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

I think that I have to beg to move the amendments that stand in my name. If I have not to beg, I have to do something else, I am sure.

[Mr Burrowes]

Speak to them.

[Anne McLaughlin]

Oh, I am speaking to them and not begging at all. I wish to speak to the amendments that stand in my name, amendments 12, 13, 14, 15 and—along with Labour colleagues—amendment 5.

We support the aims of the Bill to protect public health and to go after the big guys—the ones who are making a profit out of other people’s endangerment—rather than going after the individuals who decide to try these substances for whatever reason. In that respect, however, I do not think that we are quite there yet, which is why we have tabled our amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Victoria Atkins (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)]

I am sure that the hon. Lady knows that the situation she has just described in which youths place an order with a dealer and then distribute the substance among their friends is entirely consistent with the law as set out in the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. The message is that if you buy the drug and then distribute it, you are a supplier in the eyes of the law. I would be interested to know why she thinks there should be a distinction between these substances and the more serious drugs that are dealt with under the 1971 Act. Surely we are still trying to achieve the same aim: to stop the supply of harmful substances.

[Anne McLaughlin]

My understanding was that we were trying not to mirror the Misuse of Drugs Act. We have moved on, and this Bill is not about criminalising individuals for possession, as they can be under the Act. The Bill does not have to mirror the Act exactly. The key issue is the effect that criminalising a young person for a foolish mistake can have on their life chances. Drugs blight enough lives already—that is certainly the case in my constituency—and we do not need to penalise someone who is acting on behalf of his or her peer group, a small group of friends, without any financial motive. These young people are not drug suppliers. Obviously, we might question the sense of their decision to buy drugs, but it should not be a criminal offence. A young person could be pressurised by their peer group to purchase these substances, and they might do so in order to gain the recognition of their peers, but if they were caught they could end up with a substantial criminal conviction.

[Victoria Atkins]

Surely the point is to introduce clarity to the young people that the hon. Lady is describing. Ecstasy is a class A drug, and if a young person buys it, they risk going to prison for a very long time if they are prosecuted and convicted. If a young person buys one of these new psychoactive substances that is minimally different from MDMA, and the dealers get round the problem by saying that it is just a little bit different from ecstasy and therefore does not fall under the 1971 Act, that young person could be placed in a very difficult position. They would have to be a scientist to know the difference between the two substances. My question is: should we not be encouraging clarity to differentiate between those drugs, to enable young people to know that they should not be buying those substances and distributing them?

[Anne McLaughlin]

I am not arguing that we should not be discouraging young people in that way. I am arguing that if someone buys these substances for themselves and a couple of friends, we should not criminalise them as though they were drug dealers when they clearly are not. I worry that, further down the line, Members of this House will be contacted by the parents of someone who has foolishly purchased such a substance on behalf of himself and one or two friends and has been convicted of supplying drugs. That young person’s life chances would be greatly diminished. Of course we hope they will be discouraged by our telling them what will happen to them if they make these purchases, but I certainly do not think we should punish them and label them as a drug dealer for stupidly buying stuff for their friends. On the whole, people pass a strong moral judgment on anyone with any kind of a conviction relating to drugs, but an even stronger judgment is passed on anyone convicted of supplying drugs. We are talking about a young person getting these substances for himself and his friends, not a young person who has become a drug dealer, yet that is what the conviction would be for.

[Paul Flynn]

Following the arguments being put forward from the other side, does the hon. Lady agree that the two most deadly drugs, which are taken by millions of people in this country and which cause addiction and a huge number of deaths, are tobacco and alcohol? Has she contemplated the effects that banning those two drugs would have throughout the world?

[Anne McLaughlin]

The hon. Gentleman would not expect me to disagree about the considerable harm that tobacco and alcohol can cause, but today we are talking about new psychoactive substances. I take his point, but it is important to carry on discussing what we have come here to discuss.

Any Member in the Chamber today who has children could face a situation in which their child was silly enough, along with some friends, to experiment with some currently legal highs. They might be fortunate enough not to be damaged physically or mentally by their experience, but they could still be convicted of a drug dealing offence just for stupidly experimenting.

Amendment 14 deals with the question of internet purchases. It seeks to highlight the fact that the Government are criminalising the use of drugs for personal consumption that have been purchased over the internet and that are then shipped into the UK for use by an individual. The Government suggest that they are moving forward and that they are not seeking to criminalise individuals unnecessarily. Indeed, the Bill indicates that those who purchase in other ways will not be committing a criminal offence. However, this part of the Bill will still unnecessarily criminalise people.

I would strongly prefer law enforcement agencies to use their time and effort to prevent the large-scale importation of psychoactive substances for distribution in the UK, rather than concerning themselves with the purchase of these substances for personal use by one individual. In a previous debate on the Bill, the Minister for Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice stated:

“The spirit of the Bill is that we do not want to criminalise individuals for possession, but we are going to criminalise the sale and purchase of these substances.”

We asked for further clarification, and he said:

“I apologise: I kind of misled the House unintentionally on individual possession. I was talking about intent to supply, not intent to use. Making a purchase from a foreign website would be caught, but the purchase on its own from a website or foreign website would not, and I apologise if I misled the House on that point.”

My hon. Friend the Member for Angus (Mike Weir) pressed the Minister and pointed out that clause 8 stated that a person commits an offence if

“the person intentionally imports a substance,”

and

“the person…intends to consume the psychoactive substance for its psychoactive effects”.

He went on to say:

“It seems to me that if someone imports and possesses even a small amount of the substance over the internet he is criminalised, but if he bought it in a head shop, for example—

in this case the head shops would be gone, so if bought in the street—

“he would not be criminalised, which seems to be a strange provision.”

The Minister’s response was:

“That is not the Bill’s intention. As we go through the Bill in Committee we will endeavour to iron out those concerns.”—[Official Report, 19 October 2015; Vol. 600, c. 737-9.]

I was unable to be on the Committee as I was serving on another Bill Committee but I can read Hansard, I have hon. Friends who served on that Committee and I know that in Committee the Minister voluntarily offered this statement:

“Possession in a club would not be an offence; indeed, possession is not an offence under any part of the legislation, unless in a secure facility. It is important to send that message out.”––[Official Report, Psychoactive Substances Public Bill Committee, 27 October 2015; c. 37.]

I would like some clarity from the Minister on that.

How much longer have I got, Madam Deputy Speaker?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Natascha Engel)]

There are no time limits in this debate but many Members want to speak and the list is getting longer and longer, so the longer the hon. Lady speaks, the less others will have a chance to do so.

[Anne McLaughlin]

I will move on, then. I will take out all my killer arguments and bring them up when the Minister is summing up.

I shall make one more point, which is about purchasing online. If we are saying that it is not a criminal offence to purchase down a dark alley, which is where people would have to purchase if they intended to purchase these psychoactive substances, but it is a criminal offence to do so over the internet, we will end up with a situation where two people, brother and sister, could try to do exactly the same thing, and one of them would be a criminal but the other would not. Which of them, the boy or the girl, is most likely to be gung-ho enough to meet a criminal drug dealer down a back alley? It is far more likely that women are going to be criminalised because they are less likely to want to go and meet the drug dealer in person.

Amendment 15 proposes sentencing commensurate with the potential harm done by the substance involved. In Committee the Minister said that he supported the principle behind the amendment, so we should like to hear where he stands on it today.

On poppers, I am proud that the SNP championed this from the start. It was great to hear so many passionate speeches of support from both sides of the House, so I shall say nothing further and let someone else speak.

[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

I shall speak to new clause 3. First, though, I welcome the constructive approach taken by my right hon. Friend the Minister to engaging with Members on all sides of the House during the passage of the Bill—a constructive engagement which, I believe, has enhanced the positive aspects of the Bill. I am pleased that the broad consensus across the House is that this is an important piece of legislation about public protection.

What we have heard clearly today is a call for evidence-based policy making. That has been echoed in a number of contributions on different amendments and new clauses, and we should all sign up to that. In that spirit, I tabled the new clause primarily as a probing amendment to examine and draw out the Minister’s comments on an increasingly confused law in respect of the medicinal use of cannabis. The existing law is an impediment to research into the effects of cannabis on mental health and general research on the medicinal benefits of cannabis and cannabis derivatives.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anne McLaughlin]

I shall be very brief. I wish to congratulate all those involved in bringing forward this Bill, including the Government; the Minister who has been very willing to engage in open and robust debates; the Scottish Government who have supported the ethos behind the Bill; the Committees; and our colleagues on the Labour Benches. This is the second Bill with which I have been closely involved, and it has been a pleasure to work alongside Labour colleagues on a number of issues.

It is clear that new psychoactive substances are dangerous, and we are putting that message out there now. They are also unpredictable: there is no way of knowing what is in them or of predicting the impact on the individual. In a previous debate in this House, I talked about someone I know who made one foolish mistake at the age of 17. She was a talented young medical student, and a beautiful girl, and she has spent the rest of her life on a locked psychiatric ward. It is impossible to predict what impact drugs will have.

I have some remaining concerns, as the Minister will be aware, particularly on poppers. I look forward to the review. I remain concerned about distinguishing between people buying online and people buying down a dark alley from a drug dealer. I understand that the Minister has said that that is not the intention behind the Bill, and I accept that. I just want to quote him:

“The spirit of the Bill is that we do not want to criminalise individuals for possession”.—[Official Report, 19 October 2015; Vol. 600, c. 737.]

He also said:

“Possession in a club would not be an offence; indeed, possession is not an offence under any part of the legislation”,

and:

“Purchase and possession would be legal… so there would be no illegality on the part of the individual.”––[Official Report, Psychoactive Substances Public Bill Committee, 27 October 2015; c. 37-63.]

[Mike Penning]

In the spirit with which we have taken the Bill through, I just wanted to say that the Bill does make possession illegal in secure institutions.

[Anne McLaughlin]

I understand that—as the Minister knows, I am against it—but I was referring specifically to buying substances on the internet. We were unable to have those words included in the Bill today, but we do have the Minister’s words on the record, and lawyers will be able to use them if they have to.

My intention in all this is to protect people on two fronts: to protect their health by supporting the Bill in the first place, and to protect them from being criminalised for making a foolish mistake on one occasion. I commend the Bill as it stands, and, if it turns out that we are right about some aspects, I hope that it will be amended at a later stage.

Oral Answers to Questions

Anne McLaughlin Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I am inclined to take a leaf out of the Education Secretary’s book here. In a speech she is making today, she is making the point that we need to reform our testing system to know how well children are performing when they enter school and when they leave primary school. In our prison estate, we should have tighter monitoring of the educational attainment of prisoners when they arrive in custody and when they leave. I am delighted that we are ad idem.

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

T9. Legal aid was withdrawn from refugees who safely reached these shores and needed to be reunited with their families because this was deemed to be a straightforward process. The British Red Cross report entitled “Not So Straightforward” indicates that that is not the case. Has the Secretary of State read the report? Will the Government reintroduce legal aid or will they simplify the process so that legal aid is not required and the process in in fact straightforward?

[Mr Vara]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising the issue of legal aid again. As I said earlier, we have committed to having a review of the implementation of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. That will be carried out within three to five years of its implementation, but we do keep a watching eye on matters as they evolve.

Arrests of Chinese Protesters

Anne McLaughlin Excerpts

Monday 26th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

I am not going to prejudge an investigation by the Metropolitan police, for whom I have great respect—as I do for the other 42 police authorities for which I am responsible. Let us wait and see, rather than prejudge the case. If we let the investigation continue, we will all know the facts.

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

The Chinese ambassador to the UK recently stated that nobody would be put behind bars simply for criticising the Chinese Government. I appreciate that the Government are keen to banish human rights protections in this country, but is the Minister really happy not even to be able to make the same civil liberties commitment as China claims to make? I appreciate that the Minister cannot comment on an individual case, so I will not ask him to do so. Will he tell me, however, whether he can think of any reason, hypothetically speaking, why somebody waving their country’s flag should lead to them being arrested, put behind bars and having their mobile phone and PC taken from them?

[Mike Penning]

With all due respect, this might become slightly repetitive. The police made a decision operationally on the ground, which we should respect. We should wait for the investigation to finish and then we can all make our commentary on the facts. If people want to make a complaint, there is a certain way that that can be done and it certainly does not involve this House. It happens after the case is finished.

Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords]

Anne McLaughlin Excerpts

Monday 19th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

I have received a large number of delegations that have made arguments about the effect on the prison population, on prison officers and on morale and safety within the secure estate, which includes prisons, and we are going to look very carefully at whether we can propose an amendment. I believe that there are some processes to be followed to ensure that we can do that, but the Prisons Minister and I are minded to ensure that the prison estate is as safe as possible for prisoners as well as staff. Legal highs are having a massive effect on that part of the prison estate as well as on other parts of the secure estate. My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), like others in the Chamber, has campaigned long and hard on this issue and has brought it up on more than one occasion. We are considering the issue and I hope to table amendments in Committee.

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

My understanding was that those who would be criminalised by the Bill were those who were supplying, marketing, producing and selling, but twice now the Minister has made a comment that suggests that those who purchase these products might also be criminalised. When I look at clause 8 a wee bit more closely, it seems to be saying that those who purchase via the internet could be criminalised. The Minister is talking about making amendments, so will he be proposing an amendment to take that out? It does not fit the spirit of the Bill.

[Mike Penning]

The spirit of the Bill is that we do not want to criminalise individuals for possession, but we are going to criminalise the sale and purchase of these substances. That is in the Bill and in the spirit of the Bill, and is in line with the work that we have done.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anne McLaughlin]

rose—

[Mike Penning]

The hon. Lady asked me a question, and I will answer it. In Committee, we will study the Bill line by line, because that is how we do these things and that is right and proper. If the hon. Lady has concerns, we will consider them carefully, but we cannot have someone being able to buy things on the internet and for that to be illegal—or legal—when it would be the opposite to do it in a shop or on the street.

[Anne McLaughlin]

So, is the Minister saying that purchasing will be criminalised, but not use? As I understand it, these substances do not come free, so to use them one would have to purchase them. I do not know what to say to that.

[Mike Penning]

I do not understand this argument, and I do not know whether the shadow Minister does. If someone is buying a product that is illegal, that will be illegal. If they are selling a product that is illegal, that will be illegal. We will not criminalise a small group of people—

--- Later in debate ---

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

I rise to offer the Scottish National party’s tentative support for the Bill to proceed to the next stage. I say “tentative” because as it stands the Bill has not resolved many fundamental questions, meaning that the Committee will have its work cut out. None the less, we will support it today because we must tackle the alarming rise in the use of so-called legal highs and because further delays might result in lives being lost that could have been saved.

Of course, the term “legal high” is misleading, given that not all these substances are stimulants and many contain controlled substances. It misleads young people into believing that they are safer, more sophisticated or less likely to land them in trouble than the traditional drugs they mimic. Language is important, and nobody knows that better than those who bring these products to market. I refuse to name any products because the names make them sound bold, exciting and adventurous, when in fact they can have catastrophic impacts on someone’s life, and, as we know, in many cases they have ended people’s lives, sometimes in minutes.

I urge colleagues to refuse to use the names that the marketing consultants give to their dangerous substances and to limit their use of the term “legal high”. Some believe they would not be legal if they were dangerous, so we, as legislators, must ensure consistency in how we deal with these emerging substances. The Bill will create a blanket ban to prohibit and disrupt the production, distribution, sale and supply of NPSs in the UK. This consistent approach will have the benefit of removing all doubt about the legal consequences of being involved in the manufacture or distribution of these substances and will highlight the safety concerns of society at large about NPSs.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

An organisation called FASA, which is doing some great work in my constituency, has indicated to me its concern that resources be put in place to help people off those legal highs when the law changes—I hope—next April. Should the Government look at that as well?

[Anne McLaughlin]

I will always support treating drug use as a health issue above anything else, so obviously I would support giving help to people struggling with it.

The Bill addresses the difficulties that have arisen in controlling the use of these substances under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. The SNP supports the aims of the Bill, and the Scottish Government have been working with the Home Office and other partners in combating the use of harmful NPSs. Let us not pretend that they are not harmful. A Scottish Drugs Forum survey of drug services in 2013 provided a summary of some of the key harms associated with NPS use—overdose and temporary psychotic states, attendance at A and E, hospital admissions, sudden increase in body temperature and heart rate, coma, risk to internal organs, hallucination and vomiting. The list goes on. Some would argue that many of these effects can occur as a result of alcohol abuse, but with these substances no abuse is necessary; simply their use can have catastrophic effects. There were also some associated long-term health issues such as an increase in mental health issues, including psychosis, paranoia, anxiety, psychiatric complications and depression —and dependency, which can happen over a very short period of time, sometimes just a matter of weeks.

Many hon. Members will have received correspondence from their constituents, and today we have heard some horrifying examples of the impact of these substances. Faced with a personal testimony and a growing body of research from health practitioners and academic researchers, we have a duty as legislators to get this legislation right. We are not yet there. The Committee must explore in detail some of the concerns raised today, including the issue of driving sales underground, internet sales and how to ban them, either on the clearnet or the darknet, and the issue of proportionality in sentencing, which the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) mentioned. There are many other issues, too.

The Scottish Government have commissioned research to look at trends and, more importantly, at the motivations of those consuming these substances. In February this year, the expert review group commissioned by the Scottish Government put forward a number of recommendations, which should be of interest to Members in debating the Bill. One of these was the development of a definition of “new psychoactive substances”, which could be used across all sectors attempting to deal with these issues, especially the NHS and enforcement agencies.

It is crucial to ensure that we get the definition of NPS right in this Bill. Speaking as a new Member, I often wonder whether it is just the way things are done here, but I am quite certain that most Members would agree it is not acceptable to have reached this stage of legislation while still not having a definition with which everyone can agree. Most alarmingly, the chair of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs has said that the definition we are being asked to agree to is unworkable. I urge the Bill Committee to consider the evidence of the ACMD and find a workable definition.

[Jim Shannon]

I do not want to let this subject pass. The Republic of Ireland has very clear legislation with a very clear meaning. Does the hon. Lady feel that the Republic of Ireland has set in place legislation that could set a precedent for the rest of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

[Anne McLaughlin]

I think the legislation in the Republic of Ireland is interesting. It is one of a number of countries whose legislation we should look at. A number of countries throughout the world have experience of legislating on this issue, and we should reflect on such legislation.

A related issue that also featured in the recommendations is ensuring a cross-agency working approach, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Ms Ahmed-Sheikh) discussed with the Minister earlier, that is required to tackle what is a sophisticated—unlike myself—emerging and extremely adaptable public health problem. If we get this Bill right, it will be a significant step forward. That is why I ask the Government to ensure that the legislation is not rushed. Although we all would like to see this threat dealt with speedily, it is in no one’s interest to see the Bill rushed through with loopholes that can be exploited by the producers of these products in the future.

At the age of 18, I recall thinking that people in their 20s, including 20-year-olds, were so much older and far too old to understand what it was like for us 18-year-olds. It sounds ridiculous now that I have aged just a fraction, but it is just a fact of life that if any of us here—and yes, this might even include my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands)—were to try to tell a young person about the potential hazards of these substances, they would be more likely to switch off, asking themselves, “What do they know?” It is therefore crucial that young people equip themselves with the facts and educate each other. We can support that education, but we absolutely must work with young people.

In recognition of that point, Paul Wheelhouse, the Scottish Government’s Community Safety and Legal Affairs Minister, attended an event at the Scottish Youth Parliament at the end of September to discuss the best approaches to raising awareness of the dangers of NPSs. The SNP Government will continue to work closely with the SYP—there are too many letters here—and they will shortly present a report on their findings to the NPS ministerial cross-party working group.

I would urge both Governments to continue to work with young people, but I would urge them to work with a broad spectrum of young people. For example, looked-after young people who have come through the care system will have a different perspective from those who have grown up in a traditional family. Young people with BME backgrounds may have a very different perspective from members of the predominant race in their society, and those growing up in poorer areas and households will undoubtedly see things very differently from those with healthier upbringings.

I want to share with Members my perspective on all this during my youth. I confess that I have never—not once—touched a single illegal substance. I say “confess” because when I was growing up, it was a bit of a confession. There was a lot of peer pressure, although nothing like as much as there is today. I managed to resist all temptation because of a hauntingly beautiful young woman of whom I would catch a glimpse from time to time as my dad dropped my mum off at work. My mother was a psychiatric nurse who worked night shifts. I always said that I could not do that, but here I am.

Fiona was not the name of that beautiful young woman, but that is what I am going to call her. She had a look of Snow White about her. She was 18. She had been celebrating with her friends, and she had had much to celebrate, because she had just heard that she had managed to get straight As and would be heading off to medical school the following month. She did not make it. Instead, she ended up in a locked ward with my mum as one of her nurses. She remained there for almost four decades, and has only now moved into supported accommodation.

Fiona’s life turned out to be so different from the one to which she had been looking forward on that fateful night. She ended up in hospital that night, and spent nearly four decades there, because she had taken something. No one knew exactly what it was, and her friends say that her drink must have been spiked because she would not have done it voluntarily. Who knows the truth? But it was a hallucinogenic, and it sparked off a latent psychosis which might have lain dormant throughout her life. Instead, it was activated that night, and her life became dominated by terrifying panic attacks, hallucinations, and paranoia so great that she felt like a kidnap victim who was being kept against her will rather than a patient being cared for by my mum and her colleagues.

This hauntingly beautiful, extremely intelligent young woman with a bright future ahead of her got none of what she deserved from life. Her story is an extreme one, and the risks of the same thing happening are relatively low, but the consequences would be too great for anyone to bear. There were too many unknowns for a control freak like me, and, by telling me that story, my mother very cleverly guaranteed that I would never take the risk.

There will be many different motivations that entice or drive young people to experiment with mind-altering substances, and many different messages that prevent others from experimenting. Our primary interest should be in keeping them safe and healthy, not in punishing them. I therefore welcome the commitment that I believe the Bill provides to criminalising suppliers and not users. I also welcome the Minister’s assurance, following interventions from Members on both sides of the House, that he will iron out the anomalies in clause 8. Not sitting in moral or legal judgment of those who use these substances will give us a huge head start when we are trying to find ways to discourage them. The Bill is right to target those who gain a financial benefit from dangerous substances, the dealers and producers. Many NPSs are cynically marketed to avoid existing restrictions while also making clear what effect they will have on the purchaser.

There is an important international context as well. As the example of Poland shows, if we do not ensure that our neighbours are on side, legislation in one country can be undermined by a lack of legislation in neighbouring states. NPSs are developed and sold across international markets. The European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction has emphasised the importance of international collaboration in information collection and data-sharing, and, indeed, the G8 countries have agreed to share data on NPSs. It is worth noting, however, that most of these products are produced in China and India and then shipped in bulk to Europe, where they are sold to consumers. It is also worth noting that the Prime Minister is to meet the Prime Minister of India shortly when he visits the UK—and, of course, we are all too well aware of the state visit of the President of China, which will start tomorrow. Perhaps the Minister will ask the Prime Minister to raise the need for international collaboration on NPSs with both Mr Modi and President Xi Jinping.

In conclusion, the SNP supports the Bill at this stage, but not unequivocally. We believe there is a job ahead for the Bill Committee to catch up with where we should have been now in terms of the definitions, and I would like to think the Committee will take a robust approach and listen to those who have expressed concerns about the working of the Bill, and to those who have more experience, like Professor Iversen, as well as to those who currently use psychoactive substances recreationally. Their voices will inform us greatly.

We do not want to be having to return time and again to amend the Bill, nor do we want to have to look at repealing it because it is unworkable, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) suggested we might have to do at some stage. Let us get it right from the start. The best way to do this is to collaborate with as many interested parties as possible.