Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Second sitting)

Anna Dixon Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th June 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Evans]

I rise to speak to Liberal Democrat amendments 8, 47 and 9 to clause 4, which seek to expand the scope of the at-risk register, define risk factors and protect children and young people from unnecessary detention under the Mental Health Act.

Let me start by acknowledging the intent behind the proposals. There is genuine merit in ensuring that those who are at risk of detention, particularly children, are visible to the system before crisis point. That view is shared on both sides of the House. I also share the concern that we are too often intervening too late, after a child or young person has already reached breaking point; I would add families to that, because they also bear a lot of the brunt, especially when it comes to waiting. By extension, when there are waiting lists, as the hon. Member for Winchester mentioned, the clinicians themselves—often the GP—will struggle to deal with patients and families when they do not have the clinical expertise necessary for the most severe interventions.

Amendment 9, which would include all under-18s at risk of detention on the register, reflects that preventive ambition. Likewise, the proposed list of risk factors, including bereavement, homelessness and domestic abuse, rightly recognises the social determinants of mental ill health, which are all too often overlooked. However, I have some reservations about the proposals in their current form.

First, on the register for all under-18s, expanding the duty so broadly raises serious questions about safeguarding, data protection and deliverability. Children and young people are already subject to multiple overlapping systems, from social care to CAMHS and education, health and care plans. Before laying on a new national register, we should ask what safeguards will be in place, who will manage the data, and how it will integrate with existing responsibilities such as those under the Children Act 1989 and the special educational needs frameworks.

Secondly, although I agree that we must understand the drivers of detention, the list of mandatory risk factors, including miscarriage, bereavement and even armed conflict—all of which are profoundly serious—could widen the scope of the register so far that it loses operational focus, as we have heard. That is why the Opposition have tabled a later amendment to define it as childhood trauma instead, which is a more encompassing way of dealing with it. Also, we risk casting the net too wide without necessarily improving outcomes for targeting the right support or, conversely, missing something. For example, looking at that list, I would argue that gang violence or gang involvement is a key factor that Members on both sides of the House would agree is very pertinent, and yet it is not mentioned. Therein lies a problem.

Thirdly, amendment 9 seeks to prevent the detention of children and young people unless it is absolutely necessary, which is a principle that I wholeheartedly support, but how do the Lib Dems propose that it be enforced? What levers are in place if a service fails to deliver that community-based service? Without resourcing CAMHS, investing in crisis alternatives and reforming commissioning models, the duty risks being symbolic rather than systemic. In essence, the hon. Member for Winchester is trying to make the point that we should have these discussions.

Although I support the goals of the amendments—visibility, prevention and early support—I am not sure that the specific mechanisms in them are the best way to safeguard achieving them. Instead, I wonder whether consideration has been given to piloting regional early intervention panels for under-18s at risk of admission, building on existing safeguards in educational frameworks, rather than creating separate registers. Alternatively, we could include risk indicators in statutory guidance, rather than setting them rigidly in legislation, which I think was the point made by the Government. That would allow some clinical judgment and flexibility. Above all, we must ensure that ICBs are not just given duties, but held to account. How are they are going to deliver them? That means having the right metrics and oversight and a strong role for advocacy and families.

[Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)]

The shadow Minister is making some useful observations about best practice. One of the real injustices that we are seeing with detention at the moment is the racial disparities in detention rates. One could argue that such a disparity is a potential risk factor, but behind it is something that we should be addressing through dealing with inequalities in the mental health system, particularly the unwarranted variation in practice from clinicians perhaps making discriminatory judgments in these cases. Does the shadow Minister agree that that is another reason why we should not be over-specifying some of these points where we see associations between risk factors and detention rates under the Mental Health Act, and that therefore we should not be including them in the Bill?

[Dr Evans]

I entirely agree with the hon. Lady’s end point and with the thrust of what she says. Causality is not causation, and we need to be very careful. When we get to the later clauses of the Bill, that will be at the forefront of our discussion.

We cannot deny the reason we are having this legislative debate in the first place: the observation that black men in particular are subject to community treatment orders far more than any other group in the country. However, we must not make a lazy causal analysis and say, “Well, just because that is the case.” For example, black men have a higher risk of prostate cancer, and white people a higher chance of coeliac disease, because of the genetic basis. Is there something in that? Is there systemic bias by clinicians, as she hinted? That all needs to be explored.

The hon. Member for Shipley beat me to the punch when it comes to my closing statement. We owe it to our children and young people not to legislate in haste, so I welcome the spirit of the amendments, and I welcome the debate, but we must be careful to ensure that we are truly legislating for and defining exactly what we know. Otherwise, we risk creating other inequalities and unintended consequences or, worse still, a system that becomes even more flabby and difficult to manoeuvre through. That is the last thing we want for our patients, clinicians and the public.

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[Gregory Stafford]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. To touch on his point about social media, it is a very useful tool, but is deeply pervasive and can cause the bullying, harassment and mental health issues that he describes. As far as I can tell, the risk factors in amendment 47 would not cover something like that unless it was part of something else—for example, part of domestic abuse, armed conflict and so on.

[Anna Dixon]

This discussion of the list of risk factors throws up a concern for me: one of the risk factors that has been facing families and other constituents of mine in Shipley for some years is the inability to get appropriate support for their children from children’s social care, for example, because there are very long waiting times for child and adolescent mental health services. Even when people have EHCPs, they are often not fulfilled. Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that we need to address special educational needs and disabilities and children’s social care and put those things in place, as the Government are doing? Children with autism and learning disabilities will remain at high risk of much more complex mental health needs if they do not get the support they need at an early stage.

[Gregory Stafford]

Once again, the hon. Lady tempts me to make a party political point, but I shall resist. On her general point, there are factors, such as the ones she described, that would not necessarily fall within the list in amendment 47. [Interruption.]

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[Gregory Stafford]

I accept that we should aim for the pinnacle and the best. What I was trying to say was that because the amendments restrict us, rather than giving us the space to, hopefully, reach the pinnacle, or to explore other options if we cannot, they could have unintended consequences if we cannot reach that pinnacle.

[Anna Dixon]

rose—

[Dr Chambers]

I give way to the hon. Lady.

[Anna Dixon]

The hon. Gentleman may want to take these points together. We drew attention to proposed new section 125. Subsection (1) relates to integrated care boards, while subsection (2) relates to local authorities. They do exactly what he wants: strengthen the requirements on ICBs and local authorities to better meet the needs of people with autism or learning disabilities in order to avoid detention. The very essence of the Bill therefore provides the duties that the Minister reassured us on in response to my earlier point. The expectation is that commissioners will meet needs as identified in these dynamic registers.

[Dr Chambers]

I thank both hon. Members for their input and their valid points. We appreciate the Minister addressing these concerns. We will not press amendment 9 or 47, but we would like to vote on amendment 8.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

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[Dr Evans]

Far be it from me to tell the Minister what to do, but if I were a wise Minister, I might look at where my predecessors had benefitted from further information and where they may have stumbled. The Bill has been looked at for a number of years by many people from outside and inside the House. Many have been involved throughout its progress, including a former Prime Minister, who tabled amendments in the other place. There is definitely the ability to learn from what the last Government found and to use that information in the kinds of plans that we need.

[Anna Dixon]

The hon. Gentleman elaborates on the great history of the previous Conservative Government. From where I am sitting, the record is less rose-tinted—but perhaps I am wearing different spectacles. Might he return to the substance of new clause 11, which, it seems to me, is about community provision? I return to the points that I raised earlier about proposed new section 125E. I do not see what new clause 11 adds to the Bill in regard to duties relating to the commissioning of services. I encourage him to address the specifics of the amendment.

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[Dr Evans]

Let me address these points, then I will be happy to give way. When we come to clause stand part, I will address the other amendments, but I specifically said that my comments would be on new clause 11. When scrutinising the Bill, it is important that we talk about how we will deliver, as the hon. Member for Shipley rightly pointed out. It is entirely right to try to put together a plan to ensure that the Government are held accountable. We are not saying how the plan should be formulated; we simply stipulate that a plan should be formulated and introduced. That is a very different argument.

My concern about previous Lib Dem amendments was that they were too specific. We have to get the balance right. New clause 11 simply provides that the Government have 18 months to introduce a fully costed plan, so that we can again have a debate in this House. Especially as a spending review will, I believe, be announced tomorrow, we need to consider how we will match budgets in the future. We accept that it is a 10-year project.

[Anna Dixon]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Dr Evans]

I am still addressing the hon. Lady’s first point. The Conservatives understand that it will take a long time to put in place, but a credible plan is needed. There was a credible plan in place, as I have said, in the 2011 and 2016 strategies, with the funding to match. I use that as an illustration because it is provides an apt evidence base for the new clause. Otherwise, I might well be challenged by someone saying, “What is your evidence base of a delivery network and a delivery ability from a Government?” I hope that by talking through these points, I am giving the Government the chance to learn from the mistakes we made and from the way we took forward mental health. Regardless of political party, I hope hon. Members that the debate has moved on a long way from when we started in 2010 with the work done partly under the coalition Government. I will now take the intervention.

[Dr Evans]

There is quite a lot to unpack in the hon. Lady’s intervention. As I pointed out, reflecting on what the previous Government learned is also important—for example, when considering Wales. Objectively, the data shows that Wales is struggling more than England, and the same is true of Scotland. Wales and Scotland have been run by different parties from England for a long time, so my natural inclination is to attack back and say, “Well, actually, the Conservatives did better,” but my fundamental point is that we all need to do better because we have seen the problems rising. As I mentioned, over the last 10 years the number of people turning up in mental health facilities has increased by a quarter.

On the hon. Lady’s point about people with autism and learning disabilities, I sat on the Health and Social Care Committee that looked specifically at that issue. We looked at some of the best models in the world, including that of Trieste, where community care is in place. When we took evidence, we found that most people were supportive of that model, but fearful people did come forward to say that the community was not the best place for their daughter, son, husband or wife. Managing the nuance is really important. It takes time to get this right. In 2018, when the last Government looked to legislate on this issue, there was pre-legislative scrutiny, which does not always happen in this place. It was done because there was fundamental agreement that we must get the legislation right, because it applies to the most vulnerable people.

The hon. Lady is right that Lord Darzi identified three shifts that will be really important, but when he looked at this issue, he missed a fundamental point. His report starts from 2010, but when I was a junior doctor— I qualified in 2007—we had issues that affect the culture now: for example, how we managed MRSA and C. diff. That was not a brilliant time to be a patient. The medical training application service fiasco affected doctors applying for jobs so much that in 2004 the Government had to apologise and change the system, because so many people who wanted to get into specialist training could not go through that service.

We are still paying for IT infrastructure that the last Labour Government tried to introduce. The last report, in 2018, said that that cost the taxpayer almost £14 billion. We wonder why, when we try to make a shift to introduce more tech, as recommended by Darzi, people in the NHS are reticent, but they have been burnt by IT projects before. They have seen what happened under a Conservative Government, a coalition Government, and a Labour Government. All that has an immediate and impregnable effect on the legislation and the practicalities that we are dealing with today.

I am not trying to talk facetiously about the legislation; the point is to give some pragmatic direction and to actually say something tangible. On that basis, I look forward to the Minister hopefully supporting proposed new clause 11, which would give the Government the flexibility to have a plan that they choose, as is their democratic right, but also the safeguards to know that it will be delivered and we will not have more delay. There is a balance between making legislation in haste and making sure that we avoid inaction. Would the hon. Member for Shipley like to intervene?

[Anna Dixon]

Yes, briefly. I was trying to get the hon. Gentleman back to the point, which is people with autism and learning disabilities, rather than mental health policy in general. The point of reference I used earlier was the failure to deal with Winterbourne View in 2012. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock made the point very well: if we get down to it, we are talking about community provision for people with learning disabilities and autism. Too many people remain institutionalised, too far from their family, friends and community. I was pointing at that failing. I encourage the hon. Member to get back to that point. Would you like to give clarity on what is within scope of the group of amendments that we are currently debating, Ms Furniss?

[Dr Evans]

You may want to set me straight, Ms Furniss, but as we have agreed, I will directly address those points in the clause 4 stand part discussion. The hon. Member for Shipley rightly talks about community settings, but where does she think primary care staff come from? They come through medical training. When we talk about the Darzi impact, it is important that we fully understand why people choose not to go into mental health or primary care and become a GP. Without establishing that, which is a problem that this Government have to deal with, we will run into real problems when it comes to delivery.

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I understand the concerns behind amendment 10 and new clause 11, and I acknowledge the importance of having a clear plan for resource allocation and community provision for people with learning disabilities and autistic people. That is why we have already committed to lay before Parliament the annual written ministerial statement on the implementation of the Bill post Royal Assent until it is fully implemented.

[Anna Dixon]

I thank the Minister for setting out so clearly the importance of the annual ministerial statement. Does he envisage that the statement will also give an update on the extent of community provision available and the execution of the transition of people with learning disabilities and autism from institutional settings to community settings closer to home? Is that within scope of the statement?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I think the short answer to my hon. Friend’s question is yes. The written ministerial statement will be an update on the work done over the preceding 12 months, but it absolutely will also be a forward plan, so it will set out the next actions that the Government will take, what the broader, long-term change delivery process will be, the institutions that will need to change and how they will change.

A number of colleagues have also asked the question, “What does good look like?” In many ways, it is absolutely right that we, as a Government, are being held to account on the content of the Bill, but there will be a really important accountability moment 12 months after it gets Royal Assent, which will be that written ministerial statement. I fully expect every colleague in this room to read that in great detail and hold the Government to account, both on what has been achieved over the preceding 12 months and, importantly, on what the forward plan looks like.

I think that covers most of what I wanted to say, although one additional point I would make is that the amendments could have the unintended consequence of requiring Government and local areas to set out unfunded or speculative plans ahead of any funding settlements, which would affect their credibility. It is more effective to set out plans when they are ready, when we have a clear line of sight on funding and deliverability.

We also need time to engage with expert stakeholders to inform implementation planning. We know that sufficient community services cannot be achieved without wider system reforms beyond health, and details contained in any plan must also consider the context of the 10-year health plan and the independent commission into adult social care, chaired by Baroness Casey. For that reason, I thank hon. Members for their contributions and invite them to withdraw amendment 20 and not to press amendments 24, 10, 22, 21 and new clause 11.

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[Gregory Stafford]

I am doing my best—I will get it right by week three, I promise.

New clause 24 would allow people who have attended or been brought to hospital to seek help or admission as a patient to pursue an application for admission under the Mental Health Act. As other Members have mentioned, section 5(1) of the Mental Health Act allows for the detention of individuals who are already in-patients. However, there has been ambiguity about whether that applies to individuals who are on hospital grounds but not yet formally admitted; for example, those who arrive voluntarily or are being brought in during a crisis. New clause 24 seeks to close that gap by explicitly allowing applications for detention to be made in such circumstances, ensuring that a timely intervention can occur when necessary for safety or treatment, according to my hon. Friends the Members for Solihull West and Shirley and for Runnymede and Weybridge.

I listened carefully to my hon. Friends on the benefits of the new clause, and I accept some of them. However, I have some concerns about deterring people from turning up to a hospital setting, either for some other treatment or to visit friends or relations. I am worried that people would be concerned that they would be forcibly sectioned or detained without their consent by just turning up. There is a real risk of overreach in new clause 24. If we go back to the point about autonomy, people need to have assurance about when and where they will potentially be detained when they seek voluntary help.

The line between voluntary attendance and involuntary detention is the nub of the new clause. While I accept the arguments that have been made by my two hon. Friends, I am not thus far convinced that the balance in the clause is correct, but I am hopeful that the Minister can give some clarity.

[Anna Dixon]

I have a great deal of respect for the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge. I have worked with him on some aspects of the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill; he brings great expertise as a psychiatrist, and an understanding of the Mental Capacity Act that is perhaps greater than mine and that of some Members of the Opposition. However, even though I respect the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, does the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon recognise that we need to ensure compatibility between the Mental Capacity Act and the Bill before us? I hope the Minister will be able to assure us that the legal checks have been done and that the proposals before us are compatible. Given that pre-legislative scrutiny was carried out under the previous Government, I am sure that process fully got to the bottom of these issues, and I therefore hope that we can move on.

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[Stephen Kinnock]

That does clarify it. I will absolutely discuss that with officials. It is clear that we need a complete picture of the prevalence of people reporting to emergency departments and then having to be extracted from them and put into other facilities. That is an important point. We clearly need to think more about this issue and consult further. Obviously, understanding the data is a very important part of that. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a nailed-on commitment to do that, but I give him a nailed-on commitment to discuss it with officials. It is possible that the data is already out there. We need to find that out.

We have heard concerns that there is a lack of clarity about what legal powers are available to health professionals to hold someone in emergency departments until they can be assessed. However, it is a complex issue that requires extreme care and caution. We have committed to continue to explore the issue. We will engage with stakeholders to understand how the current legal framework is applied, and identify solutions to the problems raised. We will provide further guidance on the existing legal framework, including the handover process from police to health, in the next revision of the code of practice. We are also taking steps to address current operational pressures. NHS operational and planning guidance for this year tasks local health systems to improve patient flow through mental health crisis pathways and to reduce waits of more than 12 hours in emergency departments.

[Anna Dixon]

Will the setting up of more health settings—places of healthcare and of safety—help to address the issue?

[Stephen Kinnock]

Yes, I think that is right. We have a commitment to creating—either building or repurposing—facilities for more acute mental health settings. We have also created the 111 mental health line. We have a commitment to 8,500 more mental health specialists. We are committed to having a mental health-trained person in every school in the country.

I hope that all those wraparound measures will help in the overall role that we play in the community, and identify people with challenges in a way that will help to support them and, one hopes, avoid them getting to the acute stage. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to point to some of the wraparound measures that the Government are pushing forward.

For the reasons that I have outlined, I ask the hon. Member for Solihull West and Shirley not to press amendments 52 and 53 and new clause 24 to a vote.