Fisheries
Andrew George Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Doran
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. There are many reasons for the high level of discards, and what he suggests is certainly a major one.
What we need is much greater emphasis on the science and particularly on making the science fit the management purpose. We have had more than two centuries of fisheries science, but in the present condition I understand that there is no analytical assessment of around 60% of the stocks in our waters. The science needs to improve, it needs to consider the specific problems associated with mixed fisheries and it needs to inform a sustainable policy. Of course, the Fisheries Commissioner’s proposals will work with some fish stocks, but it will fail—and fail miserably—if the same rules are applied to mixed fisheries.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
In that case, does the hon. Gentleman agree that the practice of taking scientists on fishing vessels should be extended throughout the industry, because it will help to provide the best possible data for the future management of fisheries, especially in circumstances where we cannot distinguish between the intentional and unintentional over-catching of certain species, particularly in the mixed fisheries?
Mr Doran
One major problem with the science is that there is not a close enough relationship between the science and the fishermen. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Other countries such as Ireland do that, and I do not see why we cannot have scientists on our boats and secure much more co-ordination with them. As I say, the science needs to improve, it needs to consider the specific problems associated with mixed fisheries and it needs to inform a sustainable policy. Of course the Fisheries Commissioner’s proposals will work, but not in the mixed fisheries.
Let me say a brief word about the December Fisheries Council meeting. I know that other colleagues will enter the debate on various aspects of the Commission’s proposals, but this is the only opportunity we will have to say something to the Minister about the Fisheries Council in December. As usual, there are many issues on the agenda; let me run through them very quickly. As far as the industry is concerned, the major problems are the pre-programmed effort and total allowable catch reductions required by the cod recovery plan, the mismatch between the science and the Commission’s proposals for 2012 TACs, and the continuing saga surrounding Iceland, the Faroes and the pelagic stocks. I hope that the Minister will deal with all those issues in the meeting.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and other hon. Members on securing the debate. I strongly support the motion, which highlights the key points in the broad-brush approach of responding to the failure of the common fisheries policy, addressing in particular the problem of centralised management, the need for a more regionally controlled method of eliminating the problem of discarded fish and the need for a multi-annual basis for the future management of the common fisheries policy. Those who, like the hon. Member for Aberdeen North and I, have engaged in these debates over many years will reflect on the degree of consensus that has emerged in the past decade. That will not only strengthen the position but will provide a greater sense of purpose and direction for the Minister. I agree with the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) that not only is the Minister up to the task, but he will have the full support of the House in his work.
I am disappointed that we will not have a further opportunity to discuss this issue, other than today’s inevitably truncated debate. I hope therefore that the Minister will make himself available to the all-party parliamentary group and other groups around the House so that we can discuss the impact of the European Commission’s proposals regarding the future of total allowable catches and quotas around the UK coast.
I want briefly to address two issues, the first of which concerns the Government’s consultation on domestic fisheries and management reform for the under 10 metre sector, which clearly needs to be tidied up and regularised. I have taken a delegation from my constituency to see the Minister about this and he knows that there is significant alarm and concern about the impact that the reforms might have on the under 10 metre sector, not least in relation to the reference period that has been used by the Government for the possible future allocation of quota in forthcoming years.
In the Government’s response to the consultation, which came out a fortnight ago, the Minister announced the intention to try alternative management approaches before introducing far-reaching changes to the current system. The intention is to launch three pilot schemes next year. Having discussed this with fishermen around the coast of my constituency, I know that there is enthusiasm for putting forward the west of Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly as a potential area in which a pilot scheme might be advanced. That could be a means by which the area has some influence over the future development of that policy.
The second issue I want to address is the need to make sure not only that scientists work with fishermen but that fishermen work with scientists. My constituent Shaun Edwards and his crew saved 47 passengers in heavy seas from the dismantled Fryderyk Chopin vessel 100 miles south-west of the Isles of Scilly on 28 October last year. He spent more than 60 hours taking them back to harbour at Falmouth, but sadly lost his job as a result of doing so. He was working for the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science as an accomplice fisherman—I think the Minister knows about this case—and that is a great loss to science, as he was assisting CEFAS in its work.
Environmental Protection and Green Growth
Andrew George Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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Mary Creagh
It is clear that localism is absolutely vital and local communities should be able to have a say on developments in their area, but I am not clear how that links in with the Government’s national planning policy framework, which has undefined “sustainable development” at its heart. No one can say what “sustainable development” is.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I am not sure whether I should thank the hon. Lady personally for any flood defences that have been built in my constituency over the past 13 years, but I will certainly do so if it allows me to continue my intervention, which expands on the point that the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) made. Do Labour Members agree that we need to tighten planning policy, particularly in relation to empowering the Environment Agency and giving it a veto in areas of flood risk and on flood plains?
Mary Creagh
We cannot allow all development to be killed off, but I agree that there is no point building and selling homes that are not sustainable, and that will be uninsurable, un-mortgageable and unfit for human habitation if they are hit by successive flood events.
Mary Creagh
I pay tribute to that scheme, because it has created certainty not just for the council, but for employment in the area and it will drive down the council’s waste emissions. Biodegradable material decomposing in landfill generates 40% of the UK’s methane emissions and 3% of the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions. In government, Labour trebled household recycling from 11% to 40% with schemes such as that mentioned by my hon. Friend.
The Government’s recent waste review was a missed opportunity to boost recycling and create new green jobs. It was overshadowed by the in-fighting over weekly bin collections between the Secretary of State for chicken tikka masala and the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.
Andrew George
Does the shadow Secretary of State accept that a weakness in the motion and in her waste policy is that they are based purely on measuring recycling levels? Surely it would be better to measure the success of policies such as those in the waste review using increases in waste, rather than in recycling, because it is theoretically possible for recycling and landfill to increase at the same time.
Mary Creagh
I am sure that would be a great idea in a perfect world, but we are living in the real world and need to comply with the EU waste framework directive so as not to incur huge EU infraction fines. I will come on to what that means.
The three devolved Governments have all adopted an ambitious target of 60% of waste being recycled by 2020, and Scotland and Wales are aiming for 70% by 2025. That leaves England with the weakest recycling target in the UK, which is the target for the UK as a whole to meet the bare legal European minimum of 50% by 2020. There is a bitter irony in that, because the more the devolved nations achieve, the less England will have to deliver to reach the UK target. House of Commons Library research conducted for my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) shows that if the devolved nations meet their targets, England will need to recycle only 47.6% of waste by 2020 to meet its target.
Last week I visited the Rexam can manufacturing plant in Wakefield. Rexam works continually to develop its environmental performance, focusing on objectives including reducing the consumption of resources—I think that was the point that the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) was making. Over the past year, the plant has reduced its gas consumption by a quarter and its electricity consumption by 30%. The cans, which are ones that we all drink out of, such as Coca-Cola cans, are manufactured to a width of 97 microns, the width of two human hairs. That is another little fact that I can share with the House.
Richard Benyon
I think the hon. Lady shows a churlishness that is not in her character. She is usually among the most generous of Members. May I suggest that she looks at the natural environment White Paper and its 92 commitments and understands how we are valuing nature as part of how government works. I am happy to quote the recent remarks of the Chancellor who said:
“we need to know what the problem is before we can set about finding a solution. Better and fuller information is a crucial…step towards promoting environmental sustainability.”
He was talking about accounting for sustainability, and getting natural capital hardwired into Government at every level has been a crucial part of taking forward this work through the natural environment White Paper, which I commend to hon. Members.
Andrew George
May I interpret the last intervention as a constructive contribution, indicating that the Labour party wishes to engage with the issue of biodiversity? Biodiversity standards fell during the 13 years of the last Government. All the parties need to work on the biodiversity strategy and, indeed, on the natural environment White Paper and attempt to improve those standards. That is what I believe all the parties should be doing in the forthcoming year.
Richard Benyon
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Let me say with absolute clarity that we want to reverse the decline of biodiversity in this country, not just because we value nature in its esoteric sense, but because we value it in its economic sense as well. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are working with organisations like the RSPB and many others to try to ensure that the strategies we have brought forward are effective and workable. The indicators suggest that, with the right commitment, we can achieve this.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) on her contribution. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) on securing this debate, but this subject does not lend itself to the kind of partisan debate that she was hoping for. Frankly, what we should be doing in this Chamber is forming a cross-party alliance of those who agree with this agenda. There are philistines on both sides of the House who do not agree with it—the climate change deniers and those who believe that environmental policies get in the way of economic development. There are also people on both sides of the Chamber who want to engage in a more consensual debate.
This subject does not lend itself to partisan debate because the political cycle does not match the cycles of the natural environment or the investment timetables that are necessary for the delivery of policies such as renewables programmes and broadband development. To prejudge the success or otherwise of the Government after 18 months, when it is far too early to decide whether the natural environment of the UK is better than it was under the previous Government, is frankly a poor partisan point that does not advance the debate.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
My hon. Friend makes an important point about having a cross-party approach to the environment. In the last Parliament, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) took two pieces of legislation through the House, the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 and the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, that had cross-party consensus and that led to real improvements in the environment.
Andrew George
Absolutely, and I am really grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. It takes me on to another point that I wish to make, in response to the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), who is no longer in his place. He was bemoaning the lack of progress on the draft Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill, which has cross-party support.
I have to declare an interest, as for the past five years I have chaired the grocery market action group. I have been urging and seeking cross-party support for that Bill. When I started out I was entirely on my own, but I am pleased to say that both the previous Labour Government, latterly, and the Conservatives just before the general election came on board and recognised the importance of ensuring that we get fair dealing in the grocery supply chain. Although that is not directly relevant to our debate on the environment today, it is directly relevant to other matters that Members have raised, including recycling. On that issue and others, we should form cross-party support.
In spite of the very limited time that we have, I cannot allow this moment to go by without responding to the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), since he mentioned the great nation of Cornwall and the investment strategy for broadband. It has to be said that there are more than 500,000 people in Cornwall, and its population may not be as dispersed as that of Cumbria. He may well be right that we will be paying Rolls-Royce prices for something that we could be getting a little cheaper, but if the policy is advanced in one rural area, lessons can be learned that will benefit other areas later.
Rory Stewart
That is a very fair point, and it is absolutely right that Cornwall got a good deal at the time when it got it. However, the real lesson of that is that we need flexibility and pilots, with one county at a time learning the lessons so that we can drive down the costs and force suppliers to do more and more as they move from Cumbria to Northumbria and around the country. What I said was not intended as a criticism of Cornwall.
Andrew George
No, and I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for agreeing with me on the matter. Certainly it is not possible to have fibre-optic cable to a cabinet within yards of every home in dispersed rural areas, so we need to ensure that we have an investment profile that allows the use of satellite broadband in certain circumstances. We are learning lessons from the Cornish example, and we have had the benefit of European convergence funding to take the matter forward.
I wish to touch briefly on three more matters—waste, green growth and sustainable development. The Government have rightly put in place a waste review. It is an iterative process that is progressing—perhaps too slowly, but it is certainly progressing. It provides a framework for those who want to engage in the process, as I encourage Members of all parties to do, to make constructive proposals to enhance the Government’s intention to achieve a zero-waste economy. That means sending zero to landfill.
Jim Shannon
I thank the hon. Gentleman and apologise for that. Everyone is committed to recycling, but recycling itself obviously costs money. How does he see the balance between the necessity of recycling and the cost factor?
Andrew George
I see recycling as being part of the green economy, in which jobs are created and there is a massive benefit to the economy in general. When I intervened on the hon. Member for Wakefield, I was simply saying that an obsession with one narrow silo of the waste strategy—the measuring of recycling by the proportion or volume that is achieved—is entirely wrong in an economy such as the UK’s. The amount of waste recycled is a helpful indicator, but it is possible to have increased recycling and increased landfill at the same time. I do not think it is necessarily the measure by which we should judge ourselves, and I encourage Members to consider that carefully.
On green growth, it will take a long time to get the investment profile required to achieve the improvements that we are discussing. We should have a green economy that drives development in this country. The previous Government started that process, and the present Government need to continue it. RenewableUK is identifying itself with a survey out today that says that 80% of its members plan to hire extra staff within the next 18 months, so people are growing in confidence in that regard.
Finally, it is important that we mainstream sustainable development issues. The Public Bodies Bill is well intentioned, but if the intention of planning policy is to promote sustainable development, we need to re-establish the Sustainable Development Commission.
Public Bodies Bill [Lords]
Andrew George Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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Nia Griffith
First, it must be said that the Opposition have been dismayed at the way in which the Government have introduced a Bill to abolish so many valuable bodies with so many diverse functions. They have all been lumped together in this one Bill, which has been designed to abolish them, and this has afforded very little time for debate. Although we may accept some Government new clauses and amendments to make the outcome of the Bill fit within the devolution settlement and to iron out some anomalies—we understand that those changes are necessary and logical—that does not mean that we are giving unreserved support to the Bill. Far from it. In other words, we would far rather not be starting from here.
We have been confronted with a large number of new clauses and amendments at this very late stage of the Bill. A more appropriate way of dealing with these measures would have been in Committee, having allowed proper time for consultation and debate. Instead, these Government amendments were published only yesterday morning. As the Welsh Assembly is in recess this week, there has been no opportunity for the Opposition to consult Welsh Ministers. Indeed, even if it were not in recess, there would have been an absurdly short period of time for us to consult those Ministers or anyone else who has an interest in these amendments. Let us contrast that approach with the extensive discussions we had in the Committees on the Bills that became the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 and the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 about exactly how functions would apply to Wales.
Let me address the four issues to which the Minister has referred. First, on shared services, we need to remember that this is the Minister who only last October tried to explain to charities that they need not worry about TUPE because it would not apply. We can all appreciate the need for savings and the benefits that sharing staff can bring but I am concerned that the Minister is trying to bamboozle us with this measure. I am worried about his understanding of TUPE and the importance of protecting staff if they have to transfer from one place to another, if their functions are transferred, if their job description is changed or if they find themselves doing something that they were not originally appointed to do. I feel that the Government need to take on board the protection that such people should be afforded.
On the Environment Agency and issues such as flooding, of course we appreciate the need for the most appropriate and efficient way to operate. There is already close co-operation on the ground. If we can remove legal barriers to solving any problem in that respect, that is clearly the correct way forward.
Co-operatives have been mentioned, and of course the Opposition have always championed them.
Finally, the technical amendments are clearly consequential, and we therefore accept them in the context of our opposition to the general thrust of the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 1 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 2
Delegation of Welsh environmental functions
‘(1) A person to whom this section applies may make arrangements with another such person for—
(a) a Welsh environmental function exercised by one to be exercised by the other;
(b) co-operation in relation to the exercise of Welsh environmental functions.
(2) This section applies to—
(a) the Environment Agency,
(b) the Forestry Commissioners, and
(c) a person not falling within paragraph (a) or (b) who exercises a Welsh environmental function.
(3) The Welsh Ministers’ consent is required for arrangements under subsection (1).
(4) The Welsh Ministers may by order make provision about how the function of making arrangements under subsection (1) is to be discharged (including provision about the extent to which a fee may be charged in respect of anything done under the arrangements).
(5) An order under subsection (4) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of the National Assembly for Wales.
(6) The Secretary of State’s consent is required for arrangements under subsection (1) involving, or an order under subsection (4) affecting—
(a) the Environment Agency,
(b) the Forestry Commissioners, or
(c) a person not falling within paragraph (a) or (b) who is a cross-border operator.’.—(Mr Hurd.)
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 3
Shared services
‘(1) A person to whom this section applies may make arrangements with any other person to provide administrative, professional or technical services to that person for purposes relating to the exercise of public functions in or as regards England or Wales.
(2) This section applies to—
(a) the Board of Trustees of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew;
(b) the Environment Agency;
(c) the Joint Nature Conservation Committee;
(d) an internal drainage board;
(e) the Marine Management Organisation;
(f) Natural England;
(g) a person not falling within paragraphs (a) to (f) who exercises a Welsh environmental function.
(3) The Secretary of State’s consent is required for arrangements under subsection (1) involving a person who exercises a non-devolved function (whether or not the person also exercises a Welsh devolved function).
(4) The Secretary of State may by order make provision about how the function of making arrangements in subsection (1) is to be discharged in the case of arrangements made by a person to whom this section applies who exercises a non-devolved function.
(5) An order under subsection (4) requires the consent of the Welsh Ministers if the person referred to in subsection (4) also exercises a Welsh devolved function.
(6) An order under subsection (4) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
(7) The Welsh Ministers’ consent is required for arrangements under subsection (1) involving a person who exercises a Welsh devolved function (whether or not the person also exercises a non-devolved function).
(8) The Welsh Ministers may by order make provision about how the function of making arrangements in subsection (1) is to be discharged in the case of arrangements made by a person to whom this section applies who exercises a Welsh devolved function.
(9) An order under subsection (8) requires the consent of the Secretary of State if the person referred to in subsection (8) also exercises a non-devolved function.
(10) An order under subsection (8) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of the National Assembly for Wales.
(11) The provision referred to in subsections (4) and (8) includes provision about the extent to which a fee may be charged in respect of anything done under the arrangements.
(12) The power to make arrangements under subsection (1) is without prejudice to any other power of a body to which this section applies to provide services to other persons.’.—(Mr Hurd.)
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 4
Shared services: Forestry Commissioners
‘(1) The Forestry Commissioners may make arrangements with a person who exercises a Welsh environmental function (with or without other functions) to provide administrative, professional or technical services to that person for purposes relating to the exercise of public functions in or as regards Wales.
(2) The Welsh Ministers may by order make provision about how the function of making arrangements under this section is to be discharged (including provision about the extent to which a fee may be charged in respect of anything done under the arrangements).
(3) An order under subsection (2) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of the National Assembly for Wales.
(4) The Secretary of State’s consent is required for—
(a) arrangements under this section, or
(b) an order under subsection (2).
(5) The power to make arrangements under this section is without prejudice to any other power of the Forestry Commissioners to provide services to other persons.’.—(Mr Hurd.)
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 7
Agricultural wages
‘(1) In section 3 of the Agricultural Wages Act 1948 (power of Agricultural Wages Board to fix wages, holidays and other terms and conditions) the powers and duties of the Agricultural Wages Board are transferred to the Low Pay Commission.
(2) The Low Pay Commission shall establish an advisory board of employer and employee representatives from agricultural and related industries to make recommendations to the commission in fulfilment of its duties under the Agricultural Wages Act 1948.’.—(Andrew George.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 8—Office of Rural Affairs—
‘(1) The duties of the Commission for Rural Communities contained in section 19 of the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 (Representation, advice and monitoring) are to be transferred to a body to be known as the Office of Rural Affairs, which will report to the Secretary of State.’.
New clause 9—Independent Rural Advocate—
‘(1) The Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 17 (Commission for Rural Communities) for “Commission for Rural Communities” there is substituted “Rural Advocate”.
(3) Subsection 17(2) is omitted.
(4) In section 18 (Commission’s general purpose) and section 19 (Representation, advice and monitoring) for all references to “Commission for Rural Communities” there is substituted “Rural Advocate”.’.
Amendment 32, in schedule 1, page 21, line 11, leave out
‘Agricultural Wages Board for England and Wales’.
Amendment 39, in schedule 1, page 21, line 18, leave out ‘Commission for Rural Communities,’.
Andrew George
It is a pleasure to follow the previous debate, which was rather more truncated than I was expecting. I wish to emphasise the importance of retaining, under new clause 7, the protections provided by the Agricultural Wages Board, as well as addressing the importance of maintaining, under new clauses 8 and 9, an overarching mechanism—indeed, an independent body—that can advocate on behalf of rural areas. The Agricultural Wages Board was established under the Agricultural Wages Act 1948, but the heritage of that body goes back to 1924. It is an independent body with a statutory obligation to set minimum wages for agricultural workers in England and Wales and powers to determine other terms and conditions, including holidays and sick pay.
David Wright (Telford) (Lab)
Would it not be simpler to remove the Agricultural Wages Board from the list? Rather than coming up with a new scheme or initiative to transfer powers to the Low Pay Commission under new clause 7, we could leave the Agricultural Wages Board out of the Bill and it could continue to do the excellent work that it has done for many years.
Andrew George
I notice that amendment 32 tabled by the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues proposes to delete the reference to the Agricultural Wages Board from schedule 1. The reason that I proposed a compromise position in new clause 7 is that I agree with the principle underlying the Bill. It is important for Governments continually to review the justification for the existence of non-departmental public bodies and for us to reflect on the amount of public money expended by a wide variety of quangos.
Where we can amalgamate responsibilities or find ways in which protective regulations, such as those for agricultural workers, can be incorporated in another statutory body rather than abolishing the body altogether, as the Government propose, it is important that we explore that option. That is what I seek to do in new clause 7. The intention and the benefit of my proposal is that the regulations are kept and enforced, but the overhead cost of maintaining an organisation is reduced as a result of that amalgamation.
Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)
Will the hon. Gentleman explain to the House whether he is speaking on his own behalf or whether that is formal Liberal Democrat policy? Will he tell the House how he expects members of his party to vote tonight?
Andrew George
I was going to remind the House that the proposal to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board was in the Conservative party manifesto, not in the Liberal Democrat manifesto, and the proposal to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board was not in the coalition agreement. The issue should be subject to discussions between the two parties, as well as parliamentary debate and scrutiny.
It has always been my view that one of the great benefits of a coalition is that it puts Parliament on the front foot, whether the Opposition like it or not, and it strengthens Parliament. It means that issues such as this, which cannot be resolved between the two parties through whatever usual channels are now established within the coalition, are subject to quite proper parliamentary scrutiny, and Back-Bench Members of the two parties in the coalition are able to hold those on the coalition Front Bench to account.
Mr Kevan Jones
Is it not the case that the hon. Gentleman and the Liberal Democrats have not been consulted about the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board, and that his new clause is an attempt to save face with some of his constituents who will be affected by that? He can give the impression that he has fought for them, when later tonight the Government will abolish the Agricultural Wages Board anyway.
Andrew George
It is up to the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues on the very Back Bench of the Labour party to consider the demeanour they wish to adopt in this debate. Given that we share concerns about a relatively small and vulnerable group of about 150,000 isolated rural workers, many of whom are working on the lowest wages possible in that sector, I should have thought that a better demeanour would be to try and build bridges and find ways forward where we can adopt common ground in order to protect those workers, rather than making what I am sorry to say are rather cheap party political points.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
As a compromise, does new clause 7 weaken in any way the protections for agricultural workers? If so, is that not completely contrary not only to the Liberal Democrats’ historical position on the Agricultural Wages Board, but to an early-day motion tabled in 1990 when the last attempt was made to abolish the board? Not only the hon. Gentleman but every Liberal Democrat Member was a signatory to that motion, which stressed that we did not want any weakening of the board whatsoever.
Andrew George
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his research, but it must be incorrect because I was not in the House in 1990, so it must have been another date. On the question about the potential weakening of the protections available to agricultural workers, of course, if I thought that the new clause in any way significantly weakened the board’s role in protecting agricultural workers and ensuring that they had a decent baseline and a progression, or in any way jeopardised the terms and conditions that have been secured for them over many years, I would accept what the hon. Gentleman says.
I have had discussions with the Low Pay Commission on the issue. All that it will say is that it is up to Parliament to decide what regulations the commission should adopt, but they need to be enforced. Under the present regulations, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs clearly has the ultimate responsibility for enforcing those.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
The hon. Gentleman says that he has had discussions with the Low Pay Commission on his proposal. In the interests of transparency, what discussions has he had with the Government on this issue, and will he press the new clause to a vote, or is he simply using up House of Commons time?
Andrew George
I see that the demeanour adopted by those on the Back Benches is being adopted by those on the Front Bench, which is regrettable. It is for others to judge, but my concern on the issue has been sustained over a long time. I requested to see the Low Pay Commission and I have discussed the matter with it. Yes, I have had informal chats with Ministers on this issue, because like any other parliamentarian, I wish to clarify what lies behind the Government’s proposals, so naturally I have had discussions, but not formal discussions, and the hon. Gentleman is at liberty to explore the matter in the same way.
Huw Irranca-Davies
The hon. Gentleman rightly corrected me: it was in 2000, but I was completely accurate in what I was saying. So may I ask him one more time? If the Minister is unable to reassure him that, in whatever compromise new clause is brought forward, not simply will basic pay be protected, but so will holidays and sick pay, overtime and bereavement leave, rent protection and security of tenure in farm cottages, as they are under the Agricultural Wages Board provisions, will he support the Opposition’s amendment, not his new clause?
Andrew George
I agree. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his correction. I was here then and it is for the hon. Gentleman and his party to reflect on why we thought at that stage that the board might have been under threat. I entirely agree with him about the full raft of protections that should be available to agricultural workers. If I thought those protections were being significantly undermined, I would certainly not pursue the new clause in this manner. I emphasise that I do not feel precious about a particular quango; it is the protections I am most concerned about. I hope to hold out an olive branch to Ministers and say to them, “I agree with the principle underlying the Bill, which is to try to rationalise, amalgamate and abolish where that is necessary. Here is an example where we want the protections, but the small quangos that have proliferated can be amalgamated.” I am meeting them halfway and saying, “Let’s keep these protections.”
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
I represent one of the most urban constituencies, but I was brought up in some of the most rural ones. My hon. Friend’s new clause seems rightly to probe whether there is a sensible way to look after the low-paid in the agricultural industry without the duplication of quangos. That seems an entirely proper thing to do, and I hope that colleagues on the other side of the House have the same objective.
Andrew George
I did not answer the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas), the Opposition spokesman, who asked whether the new clause is intended to be probing or whether I intend to press it to a vote. This is clearly a matter of judgment. My intention is to advance the proposal as a solution that is available to the Government. The Bill is, after all, enabling legislation; it does not actually abolish the Agricultural Wages Board. At some point in the future there will be a framework within which the Government can bring forward a proposal, and we hope that they will genuinely consult upon it and that we will have an opportunity to debate the matter before taking it forward. My intention is to probe the matter. If I receive a deeply unsatisfactory response indicating that the Government have no intention of even considering the retention of any of the protections, or that they intend to drive on as quickly as possible with the abolition of not only the board but the regulations themselves, I will certainly consider pushing the new clause to a vote. I hope that the Minister is listening on that.
Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)
The last time the Liberals were in power they established the protection for agricultural workers. It will be a deep and wicked irony if, now that they are back in power, even if sharing it, they played any part in the abolition of that minimum protection. The hon. Gentleman says that his new clause is intended to be probing, but presumably he has probed his own Government. If there is any doubt whatever, I make a plea that he either presses the new clause or supports the Opposition’s amendment so that agricultural workers have that minimum protection.
Andrew George
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention, which follows the theme of others in doubting the sincerity of my purpose, which is obviously a matter for him to judge—[Interruption.] Okay, perhaps he does not doubt the sincerity of my intention, but others sitting around him certainly have. I have a genuine intention to retain the protections, but I am not precious about the board. That is the bottom line for me, as set out in the new clause. That is what I am seeking to achieve, because I believe that agricultural workers will be vulnerable if they lose their protections, that they are very isolated and that they have no muscle in the negotiating framework to enhance and improve appropriately the salary scales and terms and conditions to which I believe they are entitled.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman knows that the protections are important, and for the 12,000 agricultural workers in my part of the United Kingdom in Wales, they are exceptionally important. Putting that aside for a moment, will he for once, as I will today, pray in aid the employers? The deputy director of agricultural policy of the Farmers Union of Wales said that the Agricultural Wages Board
“is considered an important means of avoiding potential conflict and lengthy negotiations with individual staff”.
There is a synergy between employers and employees in ensuring protection and crucially—the amendment omits this—retaining the mechanism for employers to negotiate effectively.
Andrew George
The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point. There is a significant argument between his Front-Bench spokesmen and the Minister about whether withdrawal of the protections will increase the amount of negotiation that individual farmers will be obliged to engage in with their employees, instead of allowing them simply to fall back on the helpful framework of agreements that were negotiated over some time, and the orders that are enforced from 1 October every year, which the Agricultural Wages Board provides for the agricultural industry. Some people in the agricultural industry, but perhaps not employers, will accept publicly, and some will accept privately, that those negotiations and the framework that they provide for farmers and other agricultural employers are helpful and reduce the administrative burden when negotiating with their staff. The right hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point.
I return to a broad-brush point on agricultural workers. Last year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer made statements, which I thoroughly endorse, about how to restore the economy. He emphasised that we are all in this together, that those with the broadest shoulders should bear the greatest burden, and that the vulnerable should be protected.
Andrew George
In a moment.
Agricultural workers may have broad shoulders physically, but not in negotiations with their employers, and certainly not when those negotiations involve their salaries. They are among the most vulnerable people in the work force. If the Government adopt for agricultural workers the principle that the Chancellor explained in his statements last year on his approach to restoring the economy and public finances, it is important to look carefully at measures necessary to protect those vulnerable workers.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman is making some good proposals, but why should agricultural workers and businesses be treated differently from any other workers and businesses in this country?
The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) mentioned the Farmers Union of Wales, but the National Farmers Union is clear in its support for the Government’s proposals.
Andrew George
I fully acknowledge that the NFU not only strongly supports the Government’s proposals but perhaps drove those proposals in the first place. Although I share a good and strong platform with the NFU on many issues, we do not agree on this point.
The implication of what my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) said is this: if these protections are not available in any other industry, why should they be available to agricultural workers? My answer is that we should not simply adopt a lowest common denominator approach, and that just because these protections do not apply to other industries, that does not mean that, in the interests of equality, agricultural workers should have them removed. Agricultural workers have proper protections, which need to be retained, and it might be appropriate to look at extending those protections—I am not saying that agricultural workers are exceptionally exploited—to other industries where there are isolated workers in a similarly weak position who are possibly exploited.
John Mann
The hon. Gentleman cited the Chancellor’s saying that we are all in it together. Do the Liberals not get it? This morning, the Governor of the Bank of England repeated what he said before—that we have had the biggest reduction in standards of living in living memory. Are not the Chancellor and his Government cutting the pay of working people as their way of reducing the deficit, and is not this part of the same cuts?
Andrew George
The hon. Gentleman has made a fair point; I think he wanted to make a flourish with it. If he does not mind, though, I will keep the debate on the narrow point about the Agricultural Wages Board.
Andrew George
Whether I get it is a matter for the hon. Gentleman to judge and for me to emphasise that of course I do.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
The hon. Gentleman is making a series of good points about the retention of the AWB. However, his hon. Friends have raised the views of farmers. Is he aware of the survey carried out in and around the New Forest by Stuart Harding, who saw 44 farmers at random, 37 of whom were opposed to the abolition of the AWB?
Andrew George
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I must admit that I am not fully aware of such surveys. As I said in response to an earlier intervention, the view is not universally held across all agricultural employers, some of whom have privately explained to me that they find that the framework that the AWB provides creates inefficiency in how they negotiate and establish agreements, sometimes admittedly verbal, with their work force.
Huw Irranca-Davies
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that many farmers welcome the stability that is given them in their relationships, as they can avoid doing individual farm-by-farm, person-by-person negotiations. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said, that is the view of the Farmers Union of Wales. The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that it is also the view of the Welsh Government. The Minister will be able to confirm later that the Welsh Government have been in correspondence with DEFRA seeking to avoid today’s scenario of the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board because they want to retain its functions within Wales.
Andrew George
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that important point. We are part of a United Kingdom and, in spite of some hon. Members, a European Union in which the work force can migrate. The protections that an Agricultural Wages Board provides, which may be lost from England and Wales—and, I emphasise, from Cornwall—will not be lost in Scotland and Northern Ireland as a result of the Bill. Those who support the Bill’s measures on behalf of the agricultural sector argue that agricultural workers are highly prized. If the Agricultural Wages Board is withdrawn, there is a risk, certainly in the north of England, that agricultural workers will migrate north of the border, where their pay and conditions might be rather better. That will happen over time. The Minister looks at me in a rather quizzical and critical manner. Although it is true that the pay grades and terms and conditions of agricultural workers will not immediately be withdrawn as a result of the abolition of the board, for new entrants to agriculture the only protection similar to the regulations that will be jettisoned will be the application of the national minimum wage.
Mr Frank Field
Like the hon. Gentleman, I have been looking at the Minister’s face, and a quizzical look did appear on it when he talked about the importance of the minimum rates to agricultural workers. May I invite him to spike the Minister’s argument if he is going to give us figures showing the number of farm workers who are paid above the minimum rate? Is it not true that in those circumstances, farm employers still use increases in the minimum rate to increase the rates that they pay their workers, even though those rates are above the minimum?
Andrew George
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for making that point. The initial defence that Ministers gave for their proposal was that it is okay because there is a national minimum wage. The last Conservative Government did not consider such a proposal because there was no national minimum wage, but now that there is, they say that there is no fear because it provides a safety net for agricultural workers.
There are six grades of pay, from grade 1, which is only 2p above the national minimum wage, up to grade 6 which is—I do not have the figure in front of me, but I am sure the Minister will tell me it—about £8.80 an hour. Grade 6 is paid to farm managers and equivalent positions. I do not think that that is a lot to pay a farm manager. It is important to acknowledge that as little as 20% of the agricultural work force are paid at the grade 1 level. Therefore, 80% are paid above the grade 1 level. That helps to emphasise the point that it is vital to retain those grades.
It is not only the grades that are vital, but the conditions on holidays, sick pay, retention to be available on duty, standing pay, payment for the retention of a dog, and tied accommodation. About 30% of agricultural workers have tied accommodation. The regulations that apply to that are important because once somebody is in tied accommodation, they have a rather different relationship with their employer.
Huw Irranca-Davies
The hon. Gentleman is actually making some good points in defence of Labour’s amendment 32, not his new clause per se, because it will be not only new employees who are affected but contracted employees and casual workers renegotiating their contracts. I understand that 32,000 of those workers are in England and Wales. Does he agree with the point that I made earlier that if the view of both the Farmers Union of Wales and the Welsh Government is that the Agricultural Wages Board should be retained in Wales, it is inappropriate under the current devolution settlement to outlaw, abandon and abolish it? The Bill provides the people of Wales with no facility whatever to exercise their democratic legitimacy and retain it, let alone the people of Cornwall; we have not even moved on to devolution for Cornwall yet.
Andrew George
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for acknowledging that the very distinctive region of Cornwall deserves such devolution.
The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly decent point, although I have to say that provided that the Government follow their word about the Bill being the enabling framework for abolitions to be made by order, he and his colleagues in Wales will be able to advance the idea of variable geography with regard to retaining protection for agricultural workers when orders are made. However, that is perhaps a debate for another day.
Gavin Shuker
The hon. Gentleman is being extremely generous with interventions—I appreciate it.
The hon. Gentleman seems to have a lot of faith that the enabling framework in the Bill leaves the Government with an open mind about this matter. He listed a number of matters involved other than the minimum wage, such as other terms of employment and pay and conditions. Unless I am mistaken, I have not heard him mention sick pay so far, but we know from the Commission for Rural Communities, a body that is itself to be abolished under the Bill, that that will take £9 million out of the rural economy.
Andrew George
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments, and perhaps I need to move on to the CRC, because I am aware that I have been very generous in giving way—perhaps too generous, judging by the body language of those on the Government Front Bench. I did mention sick pay, although I am not sure I can confirm the figure that the hon. Gentleman gave, and I noticed the Minister shaking his head at that point. However, the negotiated sick pay agreements for certain agricultural workers are clearly very important. They are certainly more generous than others, and I would not have thought that those workers would want to give them up lightly.
I wish to emphasise a couple of points on new clauses 8 and 9. The first is about the Rural Advocate’s role. The disbursement of grants and the other roles of the CRC could potentially be brought in-house or delivered in other ways. However, it is vital to retain an independent rural voice, and I still believe that the Government need to revisit that point. There are two very good reasons for that. One is that although those of us who represent rural constituencies are of course the rural voice in Parliament, and advocates on behalf of our constituents, we need a non-partisan inquisitor and overseer. We need someone to assess the general trends of what is going on in our rural communities and rural life. The nature of how we engage in our debates in the House is that we tend to react to the political issues of the day rather than necessarily approaching calmly, objectively and rationally a significant issue that might otherwise not be addressed at all.
It is also important to recognise that the Rural Advocate should in future speak up on behalf of the most vulnerable in rural areas, as he has in the past. People on below average wages are the minority in many rural communities, but in some, including in my constituency, they are the majority. Indeed, my constituency has the lowest average wage in the country.
The advocate should also speak up for those who fundamentally depend on the range of public services that are the most vulnerable, including rural bus services, small rural schools, and village shops and post offices, which are closing in many communities in many constituencies.
The Government simply propose to press ahead with the abolition of the Commission for Rural Communities. Hon. Members have addressed the manner in which the Government have approached that, but it is notable that the Rural Advocate has already been abolished. I must chide them on starting to deliver the purpose of the Bill, because the Bill is supposed to be enabling legislation. The Commission for Rural Communities must be retained.
I hope the Minister addresses the need to bridge the fault lines between Departments. Very often, rural matters need to addressed between Departments. Rural transport is a matter for the Department for Transport, and village schools are a matter for the Department for Education, but they should be addressed between Departments. The problem of the Government not taking sufficient account of the impact on rural communities of legislation and regulations needs to be addressed, either by retaining an independent rural voice, or by having a Cabinet sub-committee that is obliged to report to Parliament and produce reports regularly. Will the Minister consider that?
Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
I have a great deal of respect for the hon. Gentleman’s expertise, and as a former rural affairs Minister, I thoroughly believe that the threat to the Agricultural Wages Board and the way in which the Government have dealt with rural issues are a disgrace. However, may I point out that he has now been going on about that for more than 40 minutes, and that it would be nice to fit one or two other major issues, such as the Youth Justice Board, into the limited time available?
Andrew George
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that comment. I have been too generous in taking interventions, including his, which has taken a great deal of time.
The Government are aware that people are very unhappy at the loss of the independent rural voice. I hope that my argument gets a warm reception, and that I do not need to press the House to a Division on either of the two new clauses because the Government indicate that they will give ground.
Mr Thomas
I rise to speak to amendment 32, which is in my name and that of my right hon. and hon. Friends, and to urge the Government to keep the Agricultural Wages Board. Let me say in passing that it is a sad indictment of the modern Conservative party that it can fill its Benches for a debate on Europe, and yet a debate of such considerable significance to the future of the countryside is better attended by Labour Members.
The hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) has done the House a service by raising the issues in the way that he did. His new clause 7, on the Agricultural Wages Board, is a positive and constructive one, as are his other proposals, but it is not as clear-cut or positive as the proposal in amendment 32 in my name and that of my right hon. and hon. Friends. However, if he decides that he does not receive a good enough response from the Minister, which I fear will be the outcome, I shall urge my right hon. and hon. Friends to support his new clause. Nevertheless, we hope that when we press our amendment, he will join us, given its greater benefit.
The AWB helps to ensure fair wages, so it will come as no surprise that the Conservative party wants it abolished. It is more surprising, however, that Liberal Democrat Ministers are signing up to the proposal. Like many others, rural workers will find it difficult to believe that this proposal is proof of the Deputy Prime Minister’s claim that he is a brake on the Conservative party. The AWB helps to ensure that people working in the countryside, be they apprentices, farm supervisors or small farmers, get a fair deal. Frankly, it is difficult to see how, without the AWB, farm workers will not inevitably be worse off.
Huw Irranca-Davies
I agree with my hon. Friend, and I also agree with the hon. Gentleman, as his peroration was, in fact, an argument in favour of our amendment, not his new clause. I therefore say to him that he should by all means press his new clause to a Division, as if he does so the Government Front-Bench team will have to consider whether it supports him. However, if he is not minded to do so, I urge him to support our amendment, as it will do exactly what he has previously argued is right for poor rural farm workers.
Andrew George
The purpose of my new clause is to achieve the Government objective of saving money by doing away with unnecessary quangos and other NDPBs, while also retaining the protections for agricultural workers. It therefore achieves exactly the same outcome as the hon. Gentleman is claiming to want, while also saving public money.
Andrew George
I very much respect the Minister’s judgment. He argues that the Agricultural Wages Board represents a bygone age, but does he accept that the Conservatives supported the establishment of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority, which provides necessary additional regulation to protect agricultural workers. If he is predicting, as a result of the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board, that wages and terms and conditions will not go down, can he tell the House this evening that he will confidently predict that they will either at least remain the same or, indeed, be more enhanced than they might otherwise be? [Interruption.]
Mr Paice
For once, I agree with whoever is shouting from a sedentary position. Of course no Minister can guarantee such things and it would be crazy for anybody to do that, but it is our firm belief that the overall employment situation in agriculture and in the fresh food sector will be enhanced by the abolition of the wages board.
The amendment proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives to transfer the powers and duties of the Agricultural Wages Board to the Low Pay Commission would mean the continuation of a dual regime, with consequent duplication of effort for employers. A transfer of the wages board functions to the Low Pay Commission would mean that there was still a separate employment regime for agricultural workers. There would be no removal of the regulatory burden on businesses and we would not achieve the simplification of legislation that we believe is necessary.
Moreover, if the Low Pay Commission were to be given powers to set an agricultural minimum wage rate, it would be difficult to argue why the commission should not extend those powers to set rates in other sectors—in other words, to return to the position before 1993. As it is, the Low Pay Commission does not have any statutory powers to set a minimum wage in any sector. It is an advisory body which makes recommendations to Government. The establishment of another advisory body to advise the Low Pay Commission, which the new clause would create, would introduce more bureaucracy, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid.
If the Agricultural Wages Board and agricultural minimum wage regime were abolished, the Low Pay Commission would be asked to consider evidence in the agricultural sector, as it does in other sectors. That evidence would be taken into account when the commission made its recommendations to Government on the rates for the national minimum wage. The national minimum wage rate would thus reflect the situation for agricultural workers. I have emphasised the point about retention of existing contractual rights.
The current evidence shows that for permanent workers aged over 21, well over half were paid well above the hourly minimum wage for the relevant grades in both 2009 and 2010. As in all other industries, agricultural workers with the right qualifications and aptitudes would continue to be able to command a premium. Lower skilled workers who were paid at or around the grade 1 agricultural minimum wage rate would be protected by the national minimum wage requirements. As has been mentioned, the lowest agricultural wage rate is just 2p per hour above the national minimum wage.
The Government would encourage industry representatives to work together to provide benchmarks for agricultural wage rates. As Members know, a non-statutory approach to wage setting works in many other industries, such as the construction sector, and although there are differences between the sectors, there is no reason why a similar approach should not work in agriculture.
I have discussed the matter with the National Farmers Union and urged it to introduce advisory levels of pay annually, in conjunction with the revisions to the minimum wage and annual levels of premium. The current premiums paid for grades above grade 1 are certain percentages above the basic grade. There is no reason why any employer who wants to employ somebody who they classify as a craftsman, a foreman or whatever grade they wish, cannot continue to use the minimum wage as the base for adding whatever premium they consider appropriate. The annual uprating of the minimum wage would be the opportunity for annual changes to agricultural wages.
In Committee and again tonight, there was considerable debate about the position of the Agricultural Wages Board in Wales. I accept that the Welsh Government take a different view. We are continuing to engage with them on the arrangements that should apply to agricultural workers in Wales.
Finally, the future of the board will be subject to public consultation, as required by the provisions of the Bill. We hope to consult before the end of the year. That will ensure that the consultation is widely advertised to meet the requirements of the Bill. Equally important and relevant to points that have been made tonight, an impact assessment and equality impact assessment will be published as part of the consultation.
That brings me to the issue of £9 million being taken out of the economy, which the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) said—well, it was broadcast this morning, but I suspect that, like me, she did not actually say it this morning—was per year. The figure of £9 million was one of a number of possible scenarios, but I will not take it back. It did originate from DEFRA, but it was not an official impact assessment. I do not dispute its origin, but the figure was £9 million over 10 years—less than £1 million a year.
Mr Paice
The House will have heard the hon. Lady’s apology.
If new clauses 8 and 9 were agreed to, we would create two new statutory bodies, an office of rural affairs and a rural advocate, both of which would be responsible for exercising the advocacy, advice and watchdog functions currently undertaken by the CRC. Instead of moving towards a single source of rural expertise, we would be funding two new organisations to gather evidence of rural impacts and to seek to bring about changes in policy, which would be a muddled arrangement, and, if anything, replicate and extend the duplication of functions that we seek to address.
We have had a long debate. I am conscious that other Members want to move on to other issues. There are other things that I could say about rural communities, but suffice it to say that we have a Government and a Department that passionately care about rural communities, and in that light I ask my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives to withdraw the new clause.
Andrew George
I am conscious that we have still to debate the Youth Justice Board and S4C, so I will not detain the House unnecessarily. However, I should like to respond to the Minister’s comments on the new clauses and his comments on the Commission for Rural Communities. New clauses 8 and 9 were mutually exclusive, so they would not both have to be agreed to. I appreciate that they may not be sufficiently technically adequate to achieve my objective, but the Minister must accept the need for some independent, out-of-Government advocate, and I hope that some overarching brief to maintain the rural perspective is a debate that we can still have, as the Minister acknowledges that the issue requires affirmative resolution following this enabling legislation.
I will not respond to all the Minister’s remarks on new clause 7, which dominated the debate, but he predicted that it would not drive down wages and conditions, and I respect his judgment. That is obviously a brave prediction, but when I asked whether he could predict that it would at least protect and result in the exceptional enhancement of agricultural workers’ wages and conditions, he could not provide that reassurance. I am pleased that in the past Conservatives supported the very necessary legislation to establish the Gangmasters Licensing Authority. The Minister said that this reflected a bygone age, but the bygone age is one before gangs and gangworkers were brought in and exploited in the manner in which they have been. That issue has been addressed, but agricultural workers are still very much present. After the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board, should that proceed, it is predicted that we still need to attract another 60,000 agricultural workers over the next 10 years, which will be a challenge indeed.
I accept that new clause 7 is technically deficient, but I still believe that the Government should reflect on the proposal to bring responsibility for the enforcement of the regulations under another body such as the Low Pay Commission. Given that we are not making the decision today to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board, we have had a good debate and there are other matters for consideration, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 11
Youth Justice Board powers and responsibilities in relation to Wales
‘A joint committee shall be established to oversee the exercise of powers and responsibilities relating to youth justice jointly between the Youth Justice Board and Ministers of the National Assembly for Wales.’.—(Alun Michael.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr Maude
I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says, and I know that he has been hugely involved in the matter and has a passionate commitment to the cause of youth justice being delivered appropriately. I obviously take on board what he says, and my right hon. and hon. Friends have said both in Committee and in the House that we will keep the matter under review. Under the procedures in the Bill, before an order gives effect to the arrangements for bringing the YJB inside the Ministry of Justice, as is envisaged, there will have to be a proper consultation process and parliamentary scrutiny. That applies right across the piece to any changes that are implemented under the Bill. There will have to be full consultation and a proper parliamentary process.
It is important to put on the statute book, as I hope will happen under the Bill, a procedure for changing the arrangements for public bodies. In the past it has been far too easy for public bodies to be casually, almost incontinently created, and it has never been easy for them to be reformed when needs have changed. Anyone who has been in government knows the pressure that there is on primary legislation, and the need to make changes to the governance, funding arrangements and scope of public bodies cannot easily rise to the top of the pile. The procedure that we are putting in place for public bodies to be reformed, abolished or merged or to have their governance or funding arrangements changed is therefore really important, and I am grateful for the constructive approach that has been applied to the Bill.
Commitment to reforming the quango state is common across the political divide. All three parties entered the last election with a commitment to reforming the public body landscape, so we brought forward the Bill in the hope and expectation that there would be a consensual approach to it. Although there have been disagreements about some aspects of it—it was never likely that there would be absolute unanimity about every body for which changes were proposed—the approach has broadly been constructive. There has been agreement that the approach taken in the Bill is desirable.
Thus it was that last June, I told the House that we were committed to cutting the number of public bodies in order to increase accountability and cut costs. We always made it clear that the primary objective of the Bill was the former. Cutting costs would certainly happen, and I will say a word about the savings later, but the primary objective was to ensure that there was democratic accountability, unless the three tests that we set out for a body or function continuing in a way that was not democratically accountable were met.
The review that we carried out first established whether the functions of a body needed to be carried out at all. If so, we sought to establish whether the body should exist at arm’s length from government by asking three questions: first, does it perform a strictly technical function; secondly, do its activities require clear political impartiality; and thirdly, does it need to act independently to establish or measure facts in a clear and independent way?
We discovered that there were 904 non-departmental public bodies, non-ministerial departments and public corporations. We proposed that in excess of 200 would cease to be public bodies; that 120 would be merged into 56 bodies; and that 170 would be substantially reformed. In addition, we listed 15 as “under consideration” with further announcements expected in due course.
The Bill establishes a mechanism that gives Ministers a series of powers, which it outlines, to make changes through secondary legislation. As I have said, if we had always to wait for an opportunity to make primary legislation, we would continue inevitably to add to the landscape of unaccountable, and often very costly and not always very efficient, public bodies.
Andrew George
The Minister said that he did not expect absolute agreement in every case that is identified in the Bill, which was iterated both in Committee and particularly on Report. Will he reassure the House that he will give special consideration to the cases, including the Agricultural Wages Board, that were highlighted on Report, and to the need for rural proofing within the Government?
Mr Maude
I hear what my hon. Friend says, and he will have heard what my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said on the matter. The benefit of the process of parliamentary scrutiny is that particular concerns are evinced so that we can respond. However, I stress that any changes carried into effect under the provisions of the Bill will require the introduction of an order and consultation. We accepted amendments in the other place that allow an enhanced affirmative procedure, so that there is proper consultation. Either House can require that enhanced procedure to be put into effect, so there can be full scrutiny and further discussion. Nothing in the Bill allows precipitate action, but none the less, the Bill allows decisive action, so that we do not have to wait for the roulette wheel to come round to enable primary legislation to be amended.
Marine Management Organisation
Andrew George Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
I am grateful for the opportunity to raise an issue of great concern to my constituency and many maritime constituencies around our shores. The UK marine area covers an area three and a half times the UK land mass. It is rich in marine life and natural resources, which form the basis of human economic activities estimated to be worth £46 billion in 2005-06. Some of those pose a risk to the integrity of marine ecosystems, with impacts growing because of pressures such as large-scale marine renewable energy developments. Current activities have resulted in a crowded marine area, including licensed developments and areas of high fishing effort. Concerns over the degradation of the marine environment have led to a range of new policies, culminating in legislation and the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009.
The most significant aspect of that Act is the introduction of marine planning: a framework for decisions on marine activities aimed at reducing user conflict and encouraging an “ecosystem-based approach”. Planning, as described in the Act, aims to promote economic activity, as well as to integrate environmental protection into decision making. I have read the Hansard record of the Committee stage of that Bill and know that the then Minister was keen to ensure that the Bill achieved the right balance between sustainable development and environmental protection.
The Marine Management Organisation was created as the main delivery agency for the new planning and licensing regime, but Natural England and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee have the main role in the pre-designation of marine protection areas. I have met its chairman and chief executive, who are trying to deliver the aims of their organisation. All the comments I am about to make relate not to their performance in managing the organisation, but rather to the structure of the processes they have inherited.
The key challenge facing the marine planning system that I am experiencing in the port of Falmouth and the Carrick Roads is resolving the inevitable conflicts between policy objectives to ensure the integration of the social, economic and environmental needs of the area. Given the limited amount of time available to me, I will summarise the area briefly. It is the third largest natural harbour in the world; home of the last commercial oyster fishing fleet under sail in Europe; host to a thriving ship repair business; host to the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service fleet; home to world-class super-yacht builders Pendennis; and home to a range of marine renewable businesses. It is also a centre of world-class yachting and sailing, including the home base of British Olympic sailor Ben Ainslie. It has a special area of conservation and areas of sites of special scientific interest. Having grown up there, I can testify to the huge improvements that have been made to the quality of water and the natural environment, which all Falmouthians very much value.
All concerned with the new marine planning process acknowledge the challenges involved. Putting 25% of England’s marine environment under “protection” in a relatively short time, given the severely resource-constrained situation the Government find themselves in, is deeply concerning. The uncertainties in planning decisions as a result of knowledge gaps, and sometimes competing scientific evidence is of particular concern. Effective marine management requires sound evidence and monitoring. A Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science report in 2010 entitled “Marine Survey Needs to Underpin Defra Policy” identifies a shortage of data necessary for marine planning. It also states that much of the evidence to be used in designation is subject to a medium or low level of confidence.
About 10% of the UK continental shelf is currently mapped in detail by survey or observation. To fill gaps, projects such as UKSeaMap produce broad-scale predictive habitat maps based on best available data, but confidence in some of the designations is as low as 20%. Direct mapping is expensive: the cost is estimated to be £210 million over seven years to map the rest of the UK’s regional seas to scales relevant to marine habitats, and there are limited funds to undertake such surveys.
Given the emphasis on evidence-based policy needing to be based on the best possible science, I want the Minister to consider the following recommendations about the guidance the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs gives to the MMO, which has the job of licensing activity in the marine environment, such as dredging, as well as establishing a network of marine protected areas, include marine conservation zones and reference sites. To undertake that work, the MMO is using the DEFRA-produced “A description of the marine planning system for England”. That is quite a general document and it would be relatively straightforward for the Minister to issue additional guidance to bring in the changes I recommend, which would not need any primary legislation.
The additional guidance I want the Minister to consider stems from the need to access the broadest and best possible evidence base for appropriate decisions to be taken. As the Minister is aware, Natural England and the JNCC are the Government’s statutory nature conservation advisers in the English and UK offshore marine area, yet there is a wealth of knowledge in coastal communities, academic institutions around the UK and even internationally that I believe should be used in addition to the expertise of those organisations. Marine science is a fast-growing academic discipline and the MMO should be enabled to extend the range of organisations and people that can provide scientific evidence to enable its independent decision making. The quality of evidence should be paramount, whether or not it comes from Natural England or the JNCC. Of course, any organisation or person would have to demonstrate their ability to carry out the task and their work should be open to scrutiny and challenge. I believe their evidence should be considered on a level playing field and on equal terms with that of Natural England and the JNCC.
I also want the Minister to consider extending the limited appeals system. Generally speaking, the terrestrial planning system does not extend below the low tide mark, so the normal planning appeals process does not apply. The 2009 Act does not appear to set out an equivalent appeals process for planning decisions, although it does allow for one to be set out by regulations under section 37 for appeals against licensing decisions. I note the Department of Energy and Climate Change and DEFRA’s recent consultation on licensing under part 4, including appeals on decisions.
The marine planning system for England March 2011 document states in paragraph 5.61 that appeals against the refusal of terrestrial planning permission and inquiries are dealt with by the Planning Inspectorate and it goes on to say that the Planning Inspectorate could be involved in independent investigations within the marine planning system. If an independent investigation is required, an investigator will be appointed to provide advice and recommendations on how issues may be resolved and plans may be improved. The final format that the investigation will take is decided by the Secretary of State on the advice of the MMO. It is essential that these powers should be made available in the predetermination stage of marine protection designations as well as in relation to decisions the MMO will make post-designation in the management of marine protected areas.
The potential economic and social impact of designation of marine protected areas on coastal communities is so significant that it demands an appropriate appeals process. Decisions of such magnitude would not be made on the land without an appropriate appeals process. With the recent publication of the list of potential sites, there has been a huge outcry in my constituency at the potential designation of part of the Fal estuary as a marine protected area and a reference site.
Falmouth town council is united in strongly opposing the plans, stating that
“the proposal…threatens 350 years of history and shipping power in this port”.
The impact of the designation upon the recreational use of the Fal estuary has also aroused anger. Referring to the effect of the designation on a long and proud history of sailing boat racing on the Fal, Falmouth race officer Walter Amos has stated:
“The proposal would put an end to 150 years of tradition, cause enormous resentment, and have considerable economic consequences.”
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
My hon. Friend is making a strong case, particularly regarding reference sites. The Minister and I served our time on the Bill that became the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, and what my hon. Friend says is absolutely right: what we need in relation to reference sites is consultation and the opportunity for appeals, as with my constituency and the Cape Bank reference site. Low-impact fishing takes place there at the moment, but that would be stopped, with the unintended consequence of discouraging the very type of fishing that I should have thought the Act was intended to protect.
Sarah Newton
I thank my hon. Friend for that very helpful intervention.
Richard Gates, the Falmouth town centre manager, has added his voice to the chorus of local residents opposing the plans, commenting:
“We live in a beautiful part of the country and certainly are very environmentally aware but this cannot be at the detriment of people’s livelihoods and leisure when many people are working so hard to develop the area”.
I am sure that Falmouth and, as my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) has pointed out, other parts of Cornwall are not the only coastal communities that feel that the current recommended sites for marine protected areas are inappropriate because they fail to meet the fundamental aim of creating areas that strike the right balance between sustainable economic, social and environmental protection.
Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew George Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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Mrs Spelman
This is becoming something of an obsession for the Labour party, but Labour Members refuse to accept or acknowledge that, when in government, they were certainly considering scrapping the Agricultural Wages Board, and only the Warwick agreement and pressure from the unions—their paymasters—caused them to change their minds. Employment legislation has moved on tremendously since 1948, when the Agricultural Wages Board was set up. They are supporting an analogue solution in a digital age.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
Notwithstanding the previous question, does my right hon. Friend not agree that potential new, young entrants will be looking closely at the common agricultural policy reform proposals published by the Commission yesterday? Although there are welcome proposals with regard to payments to young farmers, does she not agree that many of the other proposals would undermine the competitiveness of the future of British and, indeed, European agriculture?
Mrs Spelman
Yes. I thank my hon. Friend for that. The House will be aware that the Commission has just published its proposals to reform the CAP, and I am afraid that they are disappointing. We will do all we can to improve them. We need agriculture that is competitive, market oriented and successful, to attract new entrants, but at first sight—we need to do more analysis—the Commission’s proposals seem extremely bureaucratic and do not move us in the right direction.
Common Fisheries Policy
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Richard Benyon
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s continued support for the Government’s position. I said this was a once-in-a-decade opportunity, but I rather prefer his reference to this being a once-in-a-generation opportunity. If we do not get this right this time, we all know what the state of both fish stocks in United Kingdom waters and the fishing industry could be, so a lot is riding on this. Things do not come much more important than success in these rounds.
The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the point about discards, as that is fundamental to these reforms. Steps such as the great work that was going on before we came to government—and which I hope he feels we have continued—and the development of concepts such as Fishing for the Markets, which looks at the 54% of discards created by the fact that there is no market for these fish, are all good in themselves, but the Fish Fight campaign came at precisely the right time and has lit a fuse under what we are seeking to achieve. The Commission’s proposals are bold and we want to support that spirit of boldness, and also to make sure that they are practical. We think the commissioner is going in the right direction on discards.
I want to make sure that fishermen are seen as part of the solution, and not just hit by yet more control and regulation. Where we have worked with fishermen, such as on catch quotas and Project 50% and on Fishing for the Markets, show that this is the way forward.
The hon. Gentleman raised a point about the under-10 metre fleet. We have just finished a consultation on trying to improve the fishing opportunity for the under-10s. The wording in the Commission’s document offers the potential for a one-way valve. We could transfer some of the rights-based proposals to enhance the under-10 metre fleet without disadvantaging the over-10 metre fleet, which is also suffering. I am therefore mindful of the difficult balance we have to achieve.
On the final point about Scotland, I just give the hon. Gentleman my assurance that I will work very closely with all the devolved Governments. I want to achieve a UK position on this, because that will give strength to our negotiating position. I do not recognise a huge difference between us and the Scottish Government. I know they have concerns about rights-based management, but I think we can get round that and I hope we can have a UK position going forward.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
First, may I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister on his negotiating skills and endorse the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray)? In respect of inshore fishing and in particular the 12-mile limit, will my hon. Friend the Minister ensure that the historic rights of foreign vessels operating within that zone are properly scrutinised, particularly where they are towing away the gear of some of the inshore men, and ensure that there is equality of enforcement within those 12 miles?
Richard Benyon
I am happy to give my hon. Friend the assurance that I am absolutely determined that vessels from overseas respect whatever rules we bring in. Looking at the wording of this document, the means we are applying here is the marine strategy framework directive. The policies we are implementing through our conservation schemes—our marine-protected areas, our marine conservation zones under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009—are entirely in accordance with that directive, so it is impossible for other countries to try to say we are acting in a discriminatory way. I got the verbal support of the Commissioner on this in my negotiations with her, and I want to make sure we underpin this issue in the negotiations going forward.
Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew George Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Richard Benyon
The hon. Gentleman is right to raise this matter; it is our most pressing problem, and our most valuable stock is at risk of crashing—probably within 18 months to two years—if the gross overfishing announced by the Faroes and Iceland goes ahead. I moved the issue forward at this week’s meeting by seeking to raise it to a political level. It has been dealt with by the Commission and by officials, but I believe it will take Ministers from the countries concerned to look each other in the eye and sit round a table, perhaps with an independent chairman, to negotiate. I do not care where we meet, but we have got to move this forward quickly. That is the proposal I made at the meeting, and I have followed it up with a letter. We made a number of other suggestions that highlight the urgency of this problem.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I would be grateful if the Minister were prepared to meet a delegation of fishermen from my constituency who are concerned about the Government’s proposals for the inshore fishery, as the consultation on that closes today. They are particularly concerned about what I suspect will be the unintended consequences that will be detrimental to this low-impact and sustainable sector.
Richard Benyon
I would be delighted to meet representatives of the hon. Gentleman’s local fishing community. The consultation on the under-10-metre sector, which, as he says, closes today, sought to find a solution to the level of perceived unfairness—I acknowledge it—that applies to this sector. I want to find a way forward that gives this sector more fishing opportunities and allows the local communities to invest in their local fleets, because we understand the social implications of the decline of the fishing industry in many places. I am not in the business of making life more difficult for any particular sector, and I want to ensure that this consultation feeds on the many enthusiasms we have encountered, while also setting to rest many of the fears expressed.
Wild Animals (Circuses)
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Nia Griffith
Indeed; my hon. Friend has clarified the position. It is very straightforward. It can be achieved because of the groundwork that was done during the first stages of the Animal Welfare Bill.
Evidence from local councils over very many years shows that when given the opportunity many local councillors, rather than trying to ban the use of animals, have said that circuses are not allowed to come on to their land to perform because they want to make the point and respond to public opinion. We do not want a messy licensing situation whereby this, that and the other has to be done and the situation is unclear to everybody—we want a simple, straightforward ban.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I am sure that there will be party political points to be scored throughout the debate; I congratulate those who have called it. Does the hon. Lady accept, however, that there is a gathering consensus, with the Government’s body language since the announcement on 13 May indicating that there is a growing preference in Government for a ban?
Nia Griffith
We want a definitive decision to be taken today. We want that decision to go in favour of a ban, and we want that ban to be implemented without any further delays of any sort whatsoever. The consultation clearly indicates where public opinion stands and the reasons why. I am not going to keep listing the terrible instances of cruelty that we have heard about. Even if there were no deliberate cruelty, it is clear to anybody that the lifestyle of always popping in and out of a cage and performing and travelling is not something that anybody could possibly understand as the way that a wild animal would be expected to behave.
On the business about 10 generations, even in the case of our own cats and dogs who may be 10 generations domesticated, we have cat flaps and take dogs for walks. We certainly do not expect them to live the life of popping in and out of a cage and being isolated from other members of their species and taken right of their environment. That is clearly incompatible with their natural way of life. There are many opportunities for young people to see how animals can live in the wild using hidden cameras. We have experts and naturalists who produce fabulous films. We can click on our computers and see it all. We can go to a safari park, without having to travel abroad, to see animals who can be kept in certain ways in this country.
Waste Review
Andrew George Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Mrs Spelman
I have to feed teenagers who are rather partial to chicken tikka masala, and there is very little left at the end of the day. The Government will be working with local councils to increase the frequency and quality of rubbish collections and make it easier to recycle, to tackle measures that encourage councils specifically to cut the scope of collections and to support them where they wish to provide a weekly collection for smelly waste.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I welcome the publication of the review today. Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we are to address the challenge of the regularity of waste collection, we need particularly to look at pages 58 onwards of the report in relation to the management of food waste? What will the Government be doing to reassure people that we will meet ambitious targets to reduce food waste going into the chain?
Mr Speaker
Order. I ask colleagues to ask short questions. There is a lot of interest and there is little time.
Wild Animals (Circuses)
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Robert Flello
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman; it does indeed place an extra burden, an extra duty, on the Minister. I repeat the point that, if the legal advice is so overwhelming, we should be able to scrutinise it.
I shall take a step back and set out our recent journey to this point. Circuses existed long before wild animals became a feature. Indeed, it is often said that the Roman circuses were the foundation for what we know today. The use of animals in circuses probably dates back to the early 18th century, when exotic animals were put on display. The year 1833 is often cited, as that was when big cats were first seen in a cage act at a circus. Interestingly, the Slavery Abolition Act was passed in that year, as was the Factory Act that limited child labour—a connection that is slightly ironic.
During the passage of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, it was agreed that the use of wild animals in travelling circuses should be banned, subject to there being sufficient scientific evidence. The circus working group, chaired by Mike Radford, concluded that there was not sufficient scientific evidence to justify a ban. However, on a closer reading of the 2007 report, the conclusion seems to be that there is almost no evidence to consider—no evidence to support a ban, and no evidence to support the status quo. My reading of the Radford report is that there is no scientific data for either side to rely on.
There is another argument, however. Do we really need a report to tell us right from wrong? Does a report that says there is insufficient evidence override our moral sense of what is or is not acceptable? In the 20 years leading up to 1833, did Wilberforce say in the face of so-called evidence against him, “Oh well, that’s okay. I’ll give up now.”? No, of course not, and neither should we. I do not suggest that the owners of travelling circuses are cruel or that they mistreat their animals, but I fail to see—and looking around me, I note that colleagues who are here in support of a ban, fail to see—how keeping wild animals in mobile cages as they travel around the country, even with some respite in exercise areas, is for the best welfare of the animals concerned. Perhaps it is me, but I find it plain wrong that wild animals should be used in travelling circuses.
As an important aside, I believe that it is wholly unacceptable for circuses to be targeted for vandalism and worse. We should not descend to that level but should win the argument instead.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. He is absolutely right to push this issue. The Government should re-examine the legal case, so that we can move towards a ban as speedily as possible. Does he not think that a further Back-Bench debate, which many are pushing for at the moment, would give us the opportunity to re-examine the legal argument and the apparent legal impediment to a ban? We need to ensure that the Government are given the tools and the encouragement to move towards a ban as quickly as possible.
Robert Flello
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The Radford report suggests that, because of the lack of scientific evidence, the legal impediment comes from the use of secondary legislation. It says that the ban could be implemented if Parliament passed primary legislation. Having not seen the legal advice, I can only speculate that that is the problem and that the Ministry is unwilling to go down the route of primary legislation.
Andrew George
I was referring to the EU services directive and the debateable position of the Austrians. If we can learn lessons from that, we could ensure a smooth passage towards a ban.
Robert Flello
Indeed, but coming back to the European services directive, the legal advice that I have seen suggests that that was not an issue. The complaint against the Austrian Government was made in 2008. The European Circus Association took Austria to the European Commission and made a complaint. The case was folded and no further action was taken. The ombudsman looked into the matter and felt that reasons should have been given. Ultimately, though, he found that the European services directive did not apply in this circumstance and that it was up to nation states to bring in their own legislation. Again, I come back to my initial point: if the Secretary of State made available the legal advice, it would be far easier to mount a challenge and for lawyers on both sides to determine whether or not it was robust. If there was a problem, they would at least be able to see it in the open.
The 2007 Radford report noted that circuses have hesitated to update cages and facilities because of the uncertainty. It said then that the status quo was unsustainable, and that was getting on for four years ago. It says that we cannot continue in this way. The Government’s own impact assessment says that human rights are not an issue and legal advice says that the European services directive is not an issue, so what is the issue?
As Members already know, circuses are exempt from the Zoo Licensing Act 1981 and the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976. The Performing Animals (Regulation) Act 1925 does not address the welfare requirements of performing animals, and as I have mentioned previously, the Animal Welfare Act 2006 can be hard to bring to bear when circuses are travelling around the country. Where does that leave us? In my view, it leaves us quite rightly pushing for a total ban on wild animals in travelling circuses.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
I did not realise that there would be so little competition for the opportunity to enter the debate. I have already thanked the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) for securing it for us. My timidity was purely because I thought that it would be ill-mannered of me to seek an early speech in the debate given the fact that I will need to leave before it concludes, but as I do not seem to be preventing others from speaking, I will proceed.
I mentioned earlier that by asking the Minister to bring out the legal advice that supported his position, I seek only to aid him. It would certainly shed a lot of light on the situation for many Members. It is a matter of disappointment to me that that will not be possible, but I am sure that we all look forward to the Minister’s comments as he tries to explain his position.
Various legal impediments have been presented to the case for bringing an end to the use of wild animals in circuses. Some people have spoken about human rights issues, but the Government, in their consultation, made it clear that they did not believe that was an impediment. Others have looked at the European services directive, which is an interesting case but not one that prevents the UK from legislating as it sees fit on the matter of animal welfare; I recognise that it would require primary legislation.
Given that a ban is in place in Denmark and that Austria has taken measures, we would not be standing alone in that respect. We are not in the position that our views are wholly out of line with those elsewhere in the European Union. Forming public policy to protect animals from cruelty is certainly a legitimate ground for taking legislative action. We have yet to see the legal advice that has prompted this case. It is not for me to claim to be a legal expert on the matter, so I look forward to hearing further clarification.
The key issue about taking action, which has emerged from our discussions both here and in the main Chamber, rests on the potential exposure of the UK to a legal challenge. That is clear given what happened to the case in Austria. I urge the Minister to keep the situation under constant review. If the facts and the threat of legal challenge change, we want the Government to be able to take action. Will the Minister tell us if he is willing to look at the issue as events unfold, or indeed fail to unfold, in other parts of Europe?
At the end of the day, for many of my constituents, this is not a matter of legal nicety. It is about expressing our values in our society. We are prepared to do that on other matters of animal welfare, and there is no reason why circuses should not come under such concerns.
Andrew George
Like my hon. Friend and doubtless many others, I would have liked to contribute further to this debate but unfortunately I too have to be elsewhere shortly for another meeting. Nevertheless, I wish the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South, who secured the debate, great success in advancing the cause.
I want to respond to the point that my hon. Friend has just made. Leaving aside the legal debate around the issue, there must be a debate across all Departments about whether a policy of working towards a ban on wild animals in circuses can proceed. Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be helpful for DEFRA to say, in due course, whether it is minded to introduce a ban if all the other impediments to imposing a ban can be overcome?
Duncan Hames
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I agree that a statement of intent—of desire—by the Government would be helpful, so that our constituents would be in no doubt that the refusal so far to countenance the introduction of primary legislation to end the practice is not a political judgment but a practical one, in light of the legal impediments. A statement from the Government to express that view would certainly be very helpful.
However, in response to the urgent question that was put last month in the main Chamber on this issue, we had a somewhat more laissez-faire piece of encouragement from the Minister, when he said:
“If people are really so opposed to the use of wild animals in circuses, I suggest that they do not go to the circus.”—[Official Report, 19 May 2011; Vol. 527, c. 499.]
I am happy to take the Minister’s advice, but to be honest I do not think that his response is sufficient. That type of response has certainly not been considered in relation to many other issues of animal welfare. For example, when it comes to the regulation of practices within abattoirs, it would not be sufficient simply to tell people not to eat meat. People who eat meat expect good standards and I know that the Minister’s Department is keen to ensure that good standards are upheld. In recent months, concerns have been expressed about other animal welfare issues, for example in horse racing, and it would not have been sufficient for people simply to have turned off the television set that Saturday afternoon in April.
There are other examples of animal welfare issues when such a response would not have been sufficient, for instance in relation to the fur trade. Yes, consumers, members of the public and society as a whole can take a stand and make their views clear. However, to do that alone ignores the fact that we are all part of one democratic society where we want to be able to set standards that we should all have confidence in, regardless of our personal choices, as I said just now in relation to the meat industry.
I hope that the Minister will accept that there is widespread support for action on the issue of wild animals in circuses. In the Government’s consultation, 94% of respondents wanted an end to the use of wild animals in circuses. In addition, 26,000 people signed the petition that the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South referred to in his speech. That petition was also supported by many respected organisations, such as the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the British Veterinary Association, the Born Free Foundation and the Captive Animals Protection Society. I hope that we can find a way through the current impasse.