Alok Sharma
Main Page: Alok Sharma (Conservative - Reading West)Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Alok Sharma Excerpts
Mr Umunna
With the greatest respect to the hon. Gentleman, our party has made it very clear what we believe. Mr Wadham can speak for himself, but I must first point out that he is not the chair of the organisation. Secondly, the Equality and Human Rights Commission has made it clear that it has changed its position on this matter. Thirdly, we are hardly going to find a senior member of an agency such as the commission seeking to have a public row with its Minister. However, I think we all know exactly what people in the commission think. I was told that the last time we discussed this matter in the House, Opposition Members were being cheered on by employees of the commission who were watching the debate. I am sure that they are watching this debate right now, and that they will have listened with interest to what the hon. Gentleman has just said.
The Minister should also reflect on what the majority of her party’s members think about this issue. They cannot fathom why she and the Business Secretary are making all these changes to people’s rights at work, to the role of the commission and so on. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), the shadow Minister for employment relations, has told me about his trip to the Liberal Democrats’ spring conference last month. He spoke at a fringe meeting on employment rights—I did not know he was going to do that—at which the Minister tried to justify all these changes. My understanding is that people walked out of that room in disgust at the measures that she is trying to push through today. I have, of course, castigated my hon. Friend for forgetting to take Labour party membership forms with him to dish out; he will take a big box of them next time. We support the Lords amendments in this respect.
Let me turn now to deal with caste discrimination, a matter that has attracted considerable interest outside this House. Labour has a proud history of tackling injustice and discrimination. We believe that people should be able to make the most of their potential opportunities—whatever their race, gender, family background or social circumstances. In recent months, organisations such as the Anti-caste Discrimination Alliance have campaigned for stronger action to tackle caste discrimination, and their case has been powerful. Every community group and every faith group to which we have spoken—on either side of the debate in recent days—has been united in the belief that caste discrimination has no place in our country.
We Labour Members thus believe that we must send a strong and clear message today—that caste discrimination is completely unacceptable, and that we support taking more action. That is why we will support the amendment. We need to do more to ensure that the small number of people who face such injustice have access to the redress they deserve and have somewhere to turn to for support.
It is fair to say, however, that some have raised legitimate concerns about the practicalities of how the legislation would work—about its drafting and implementation. We take those practical points seriously and we agree that any new action we take must over time reduce rather than increase the number of people being identified by their caste, eliminating discrimination in the future.
Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con)
I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman and I think all of us are united in believing that any form of discrimination—caste or any other form—is entirely wrong. It is interesting to reflect that the hon. Gentleman is talking about this issue in 2013, yet the Labour party was in power—I know he was not here then—for 13 years. Did this issue not come up at any time over 13 years and, if so, why did the Labour party not bring forward any proposals at the time? It should welcome the fact that this Government are the first to put forward an education programme to deal with the issue.
Mr Umunna
I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but we sought to deal with the issue through the Equality Act 2010 and then by providing for further action to be taken thereafter. It is not fair for him to say that we took insufficient action during our time in government: we needed to allow time for the communities concerned to adjust and to provide an opportunity for the education which he talks about. Despite the time that has passed—the Act was passed back in 2010—it is clear that more still needs to happen.
We do not believe that the Government are doing enough on this issue, which is part of the reason why we will vote against the Government’s motion to disagree with the Lords amendment. I hope that further discussions can take place here about the implementation of action against caste discrimination before the matter is discussed again in the other place. People on both sides of the debate have said loudly and clearly that they would like far more consultation on the subject. We hope that that can happen. The goal—the place where we all want to be—is to reach agreement on a way forward over the next few days before the provisions arrive back in the House of Lords.
Mrs McGuire
Yes and, as I understand it, the monitoring period has been extended from three years to five years. The hon. Gentleman has identified an important aspect. We should get away from the idea that the Equality and Human Rights Commission is merely the sum of its compliance powers. It is more than that. It should be working with the wider community to establish a society that has equality and human rights at its heart. The Government’s disregard rejects the view that the EHRC has a role working with the wider community.
My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham mentioned Baroness Campbell of Surbiton. The House owes the baroness a great debt of gratitude because she has a long record of working on human rights and equality issues—far longer, probably, than some of the younger Members of this House have been alive. She knows what she is talking about, and her charge to the Government was that they have yet to prove that a commission with fewer powers and tools at its disposal will be more effective than one with the role and powers bestowed on it by Parliament some six years ago.
The Minister has failed to make that case. I hope she will think again. If she is not prepared to do so, I hope Members in all parts of the House who believe that the Equality and Human Rights Commission has a role beyond its compliance powers will support Baroness Campbell and the House of Lords, and will support their amendment when it comes to the vote this afternoon.
Alok Sharma
I will restrict my comments to the discussion of caste discrimination. As I said in my intervention on the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), I think we can all agree that caste discrimination is wrong and abhorrent, as is any form of discrimination. I welcome the fact that the Government are making a real effort, taking the issue seriously and putting in place a programme of education.
I hope that the hon. Member for Streatham would agree that, before introducing legislation, we should ensure that there is an evidence base for doing so. As I am sure he will be aware, the NIESR report was incredibly comprehensive. As I understand it, NIESR approached CasteWatch UK and Voice of Dalit International and looked back at cases that were up to 10 years old, yet it came up with a relatively low volume of caste-related incidents. I have no wish to trivialise any of those incidents, and clearly they were incredibly hurtful to the individuals involved, but I will just make the point that, ultimately, if we are to introduce legislation, we need to ensure that there is a broad evidence base for doing so. I understand that 32 people were interviewed for the NIESR report and 23 were used as case studies. Those 23 people reported 36 separate caste-related incidents.
Mr Umunna
I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman, but I want to ask him two questions. Does he accept that caste discrimination is going on and, if he does, does he agree that the fact that it might be quite restricted should not preclude us taking action to protect the small number who are subject to it?
Alok Sharma
I have referred to the NIESR report, and clearly there is evidence that such discrimination is going on, and ultimately we need to ensure that there are remedies for it. As I was about to say, nearly half of the 36 incidents discussed are not covered by the area of equality legislation. Indeed, for many others there is scope to find the other remedies available.
Dr Wollaston
Does my hon. Friend not also accept that, because the chances of a successful prosecution are small, individuals are less likely to come forward and report incidents?
Alok Sharma
That might indeed be the case. I have been a Member of Parliament for only three years—many Members have been here far longer—and I represent a constituency whose make-up means it is a microcosm of Britain, but in those three years not a single constituent has come to talk with me about being subject to caste discrimination. People have come to talk about other forms of discrimination, but certainly not caste discrimination.
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
Will the hon. Gentleman explain to me the relevance of the number of constituents who have come forward to talk with him, or with anyone else? Surely a few cases means a few cases too many. If we base our understanding of discrimination on numbers, we will not get very far.
Alok Sharma
I understand the sentiment the hon. Lady expresses, but is she suggesting that the Government should legislate to protect people from every conceivable form of discrimination? We know that class discrimination exists, as do other forms of discrimination, but we follow other approaches for those, rather than legislation.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
Is my hon. Friend not concerned that most ordinary, sensible people probably believe that caste discrimination is already illegal and that if we do not go ahead with this, we will be sending out a message that it is acceptable and that claims against it are not supported by the law?
Alok Sharma
Of course it is unacceptable. As I said earlier, any form of discrimination is unacceptable, but we need to ensure that the remedies we have available are used, and ultimately there has to be an evidence base for legislation.
Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)
If a carer was to refuse to care for an individual because they were of a lower caste, how does the hon. Gentleman think that would be remedied?
Alok Sharma
I took part in a debate on Radio 5 live this morning, and that was one of the examples that came up. Clearly it is unacceptable. I do not know the details of the case, and I do not know whether there is a remedy under workplace legislation, but, to continue with the theme, I think that we need to ensure that there is an evidence base. I welcome the work that the Government are proposing on education. One of the points made by a caller to the Radio 5 live debate this morning was that much of the time employers do not understand caste discrimination. That could form part of the education process. As I understand it, certainly based on my reading of the debate in the other place, the Government have not closed their mind to legislation. They said that an evidence base is needed and that additional work is being undertaken.
John Hemming
Does my hon. Friend accept that were the Government motion to pass, this issue would not return to the House of Lords and could not be subject to a further amendment, but it is possible to deal with it through a statutory instrument? There is general agreement that the Lords proposal is not an acceptable solution that would solve the problem properly.
Alok Sharma
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. As the Minister said, this is a complex issue and there is not necessarily a common view about how we need to deal with it. That is why the proposal to have education as a first step is absolutely right. I welcome the fact that Talk for a Change will be running the—
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that before the Race Relations Act 1976 many fewer race relations cases, if any, were taken through the courts, but after the law was passed people had the confidence to take their cases further?
Alok Sharma
I am pleased that we have come a long way from that time. We live in a modern society, and that is entirely appropriate.
As I understand it from the debate in the other place—I am sure that the Minister will respond to this—the Government’s mind is not closed on legislation. The fact that work is going to be done by the Equality and Human Rights Commission should also be welcomed. This is a very complex issue, and it would be unfortunate if we were to follow a route of introducing legislation without having the evidence base for it.
My final point, which was made by a caller this morning, is how much of an issue this is from the perspective of those who are second, third or fourth generation and were born and brought up in this country. I do not define myself by my caste and I suspect that there are millions like me up and down the country. I will therefore support the Government’s motion.
Andy McDonald
I should like to speak to amendment 38. As my hon. Friend the shadow Minister said, this proposal goes much further than the one made by Professor Löfstedt in his review of health and safety law. Professor Löfstedt referred to ending civil liability, but only in relation to strict liability, whereas these proposals will impact on the vast majority of employer liability cases, where breaches of statutory duty allegations are usually more important than negligence. In every case, the injured worker will have to prove that the employer knew, or ought to have known, that a machine was unsafe, equipment was faulty, or there had been previous accidents—something known to the employer but unlikely to be known by the employee.
It is worth noting that over 90% of health and safety regulation enforcement is through the civil courts. There are some 78,000 claims for compensation following accidents at work every year, but only 1,000 criminal prosecutions under health and safety, so if this proposal proceeds we will be singularly relying on the Health and Safety Executive to do a better job than it is doing now—and what is the likelihood of that, given the resources that are attributed to that organisation?
This is not fanciful or esoteric: we are talking about real people’s lives. Michael Adamson was a 29-year-old electrician who suffered a fatal electrocution in the course of his employment in August 2005. The accident occurred during the construction of a retail outlet when he touched a cable labelled “Not in use”. The cable was live and Michael was fatally injured, but Michael’s family saw justice because they were able to rely on the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989. If they had not been able to rely on the regulations, they would not have been compensated for the loss of a son and brother.
Mr Hill, who was a roofer and slater, fell from scaffolding during the course of his work and suffered very serious injuries resulting in incomplete tetraplegia. The accident occurred as he came down the scaffolding on a portable ladder that was not fixed or in any way secured; he fell to the ground, causing the injury. His injuries were so severe that damages were agreed at just under £2 million. The court held that there was no liability at common law, but there was liability under the Work at Height Regulations 2005. Were it not for those regulations, Mr Hill, whose injuries were so serious and life-altering, would not have received any compensation.
Mr Khalid Mahmood
I rise to speak in favour of the Lords amendment on caste discrimination. The Minister said that we need more education and consultation. She said that she wants more evidence. We can educate and consult as much as we want, and if she wants evidence, she can come to my office or I can send her almost 1,000 letters that I have received from my constituents on this issue. This issue is close to the heart of most of the people in the United Kingdom who have been excluded from equality legislation. They ask why, when everybody else is entitled to the protection of that legislation, they are not. We want that issue to be addressed today.
We have discussed the number of people who have come forward. Most of those affected cannot come forward—as the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) pointed out—or be taken seriously unless they are prepared to spend huge amounts of their personal money to get their cases heard.
Alok Sharma
On a point of clarification, the hon. Gentleman says that he has had 1,000 letters from his constituents. Have all those people specifically faced caste discrimination in this country?