John Hemming
Main Page: John Hemming (Liberal Democrat - Birmingham, Yardley)Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
John Hemming Excerpts
Jo Swinson
My hon. Friend raises an important point on whether this is a form of race discrimination. I think that the law shows that in some instances it may well be that cases could be brought under race discrimination when there is an issue of caste, although not necessarily in every case, which is why this discussion has arisen. She is also right to make the point about women’s groups. My hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald, who leads on this issue, has met a wide range of groups and organisations representing different sides, including women. It is important to ensure that all people in the community are considered.
Taking the step of legislating would mean that every employer, service provider and public authority across Great Britain would need to familiarise themselves with new legal obligations, despite the very low chance of ever being faced with a case of caste discrimination. That is why we have developed an educational programme. The EHRC has offered to complete its examination into how best to address caste prejudice and discrimination, and we will be consulting together for views across the communities. On that basis, I hope the House will agree that it is not appropriate at this time to agree with the other place on amendment 37.
Jo Swinson
I want to make a little progress, because I am conscious of time.
Amendments 38 and 39 focus on health and safety. Addressing the concerns about strict liability for breach of health and safety duties is an important element of the Government’s wider reforms to tackle both the perception of a compensation culture and the damaging effect it has on sensible health and safety management and business growth—concerns consistently reported by businesses.
As was outlined on Report, the purpose of this reform is to establish the important principle that a responsible employer should not be liable to a civil claim for compensation where they have taken all reasonable steps and have not been negligent. The substantive law is unaffected. Criminal offences and their enforcement will not be affected, and employees will continue to have the right to bring claims for compensation where they can prove their employer has been negligent.
The Government do not believe that it is justifiable to hold employers liable for incidents outside of their control that they could not have reasonably prevented. The modern framework of law and supporting evidence and guidance means that employees are in a much better position than they have been historically to demonstrate whether their employer is at fault, and that will remain relevant as evidence in assessing what employers should have known and whether an employer’s behaviour was reasonable. That reform will mean that in future there will be a consistent approach to civil litigation across all health and safety legislation. This is simpler for all to understand and will therefore have a greater impact in increasing employers’ confidence to do the right things to protect their employees and to develop and grow their business.
We have proposed an amendment in lieu of amendment 38 and proposed that the House should agree with the other place in its amendment 39, which, as well as reinstating the main provision, would also reintroduce amendments agreed in Grand Committee in response to points raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The Committee took the view that a power to extend the policy to wider health and safety legislation was too wide, and the Government have agreed to remove it.
I shall now turn to letting and managing agents. Many letting agents act lawfully and provide a good service, but there is a minority whose service quality is unacceptable—no doubt Members on both sides of the House have heard tales from their constituents where this has been the case. Consumer protection legislation covers many of the problematic practices, but enforcement is patchy, particularly in less serious cases. Also, existing legislation does not give consumers direct access to redress.
The noble Lady Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town said in the other place that her amendment simply required agents to sign up to a redress scheme. In response, this Government amendment gives the Secretary of State the power to make an order requiring letting and managing agents of privately rented and residential leasehold homes to belong to a redress scheme. The Government will consult on the detail, taking into account the recommendations of the Communities and Local Government Committee Select Committee and the Office of Fair Trading.
John Hemming
Does the right hon. Lady agree that the key thing about the general duty is section 12 and the requirement to monitor the progress of society towards the general duty? That is where it has a practical effect.
Mrs McGuire
Yes and, as I understand it, the monitoring period has been extended from three years to five years. The hon. Gentleman has identified an important aspect. We should get away from the idea that the Equality and Human Rights Commission is merely the sum of its compliance powers. It is more than that. It should be working with the wider community to establish a society that has equality and human rights at its heart. The Government’s disregard rejects the view that the EHRC has a role working with the wider community.
My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham mentioned Baroness Campbell of Surbiton. The House owes the baroness a great debt of gratitude because she has a long record of working on human rights and equality issues—far longer, probably, than some of the younger Members of this House have been alive. She knows what she is talking about, and her charge to the Government was that they have yet to prove that a commission with fewer powers and tools at its disposal will be more effective than one with the role and powers bestowed on it by Parliament some six years ago.
The Minister has failed to make that case. I hope she will think again. If she is not prepared to do so, I hope Members in all parts of the House who believe that the Equality and Human Rights Commission has a role beyond its compliance powers will support Baroness Campbell and the House of Lords, and will support their amendment when it comes to the vote this afternoon.
Alok Sharma
I took part in a debate on Radio 5 live this morning, and that was one of the examples that came up. Clearly it is unacceptable. I do not know the details of the case, and I do not know whether there is a remedy under workplace legislation, but, to continue with the theme, I think that we need to ensure that there is an evidence base. I welcome the work that the Government are proposing on education. One of the points made by a caller to the Radio 5 live debate this morning was that much of the time employers do not understand caste discrimination. That could form part of the education process. As I understand it, certainly based on my reading of the debate in the other place, the Government have not closed their mind to legislation. They said that an evidence base is needed and that additional work is being undertaken.
John Hemming
Does my hon. Friend accept that were the Government motion to pass, this issue would not return to the House of Lords and could not be subject to a further amendment, but it is possible to deal with it through a statutory instrument? There is general agreement that the Lords proposal is not an acceptable solution that would solve the problem properly.
Alok Sharma
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. As the Minister said, this is a complex issue and there is not necessarily a common view about how we need to deal with it. That is why the proposal to have education as a first step is absolutely right. I welcome the fact that Talk for a Change will be running the—