Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, this is clearly box-office material, as ever.

I support Amendment 1 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, on inferred data. Like her, I regret that we do not have this Bill flying in tandem with an AI Bill. As she said, data and AI go together, and we need to see the two together in context. However, inferred data has its own dangers: inaccuracy and what are called junk inferences; discrimination and unfair treatment; invasions of privacy; a lack of transparency; security risks; predatory targeting; and a loss of anonymity. These dangers highlight the need for strong data privacy protection for consumers in smart data schemes and more transparent data collection practices.

Noble Lords will remember that Cambridge Analytica dealt extensively with inferred data. That company used various data sources to create detailed psychological profiles of individuals going far beyond the information that users explicitly provided. I will not go into the complete history, but, frankly, we do not want to repeat that. Without safeguards, the development of AI technologies could lead to a lack of public trust, as the noble Baroness said, and indeed to a backlash against the use of AI, which could hinder the Government’s ambitions to make the UK an AI superpower. I do not like that kind of boosterish language—some of the Government’s statements perhaps could have been written by Boris Johnson—nevertheless the ambition to put the UK on the AI map, and to keep it there, is a worthy one. This kind of safeguard is therefore extremely important in that context.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for introducing this group. I will speak particularly to the amendment in my name but before I do so, I want to say how much I agree with the noble Baroness and with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that it is a matter of regret that we are not simultaneously looking at an AI Bill. I worry that this Bill has to take a lot of the weight that an AI Bill would otherwise take, but we will come to that in a great deal more detail in later groups.

I will address the two amendments in this group in reverse order. Amendment 5 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Markham would remove Clause 13, which makes provision for the Secretary of State or the Treasury to give financial assistance to decision-makers and enforcers—that is, in essence, to act as a financial backstop. While I appreciate the necessity of guaranteeing the stability of enforcers who are public authorities and therefore branches of state, I am concerned that this has been extended to decision-makers. The Bill does not make the identity of a decision-maker clear. Therefore, I wonder who exactly we are protecting here. Unless those individuals or bodies or organisations can be clearly defined, how can we know whether we should extend financial assistance to them?

I raised these concerns in Committee and the Minister assured us at that time that smart data schemes should be self-financing through fees and levies as set out in Clauses 11 and 12 and that this provision is therefore a back-up plan. If that is indeed the case and we are assured of the self-funding nature of smart data schemes, then what exactly makes this necessary? Why must the statutory spending authority act as a backstop if we do not believe there is a risk it will be needed? If we do think there is such a risk, can the Minister elaborate on what it is?

I turn now to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, which would require data traders to supply customers with information that has been used by AI to build a profile on them. While transparency and explainability are hugely important, I worry that the mechanism proposed here will be too burdensome. The burden would grow linearly with the scale of the models used. Collating and supplying this information would, I fear, increase the cost of doing business for traders. Given AI’s potential to be an immense asset to business, helping generate billions of pounds for the UK economy—and, by the way, I rather approve of the boosterish tone and think we should strive for a great deal more growth in the economy—we should not seek to make its use more administratively burdensome for business. Furthermore, since the information is AI-generated, it is going to be a guess or an assumption or an inference. Therefore, should we require companies to disclose not just the input data but the intermediate and final outputs? Speaking as a consumer, I am not sure that I personally would welcome this. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s responses.

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, for their proposed amendments and continued interest in Part 1 of this Bill. I hope I can reassure the noble Baroness that the definition of customer data is purposefully broad. It encompasses information relating to a customer or a trader and the Government consider that this would indeed include inferred data. The specific data to be disclosed under a smart data scheme will be determined in the context of that scheme and I reassure the noble Baroness that there will be appropriate consultation before a smart data scheme is introduced.

I turn to Amendment 5. Clause 13 provides statutory authority for the Secretary of State or the Treasury to give financial assistance to decision-makers, enforcers and others for the purpose of meeting any expense in the exercise of their functions in the smart data schemes. Existing and trusted bodies such as sector regulators will likely be in the lead of the delivery of new schemes. These bodies will act as decision-makers and enforcers. It is intended that smart data schemes will be self-financing through the fees and levies produced by Clauses 11 and 12. However, because of the nature of the bodies that are involved, it is deemed appropriate for there to be a statutory spending authority as a backstop provision if that is necessary. Any spending commitment of resources will, of course, be subject to the usual estimates process and to existing public sector spending controls and transparency requirements.

I hope that with this brief explanation of the types of bodies involved, and the other explanations, the noble Baroness will be content to withdraw Amendment 1 and that noble Lords will not press Amendment 5.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is setting a cracking pace this afternoon, and I am delighted to support her amendments and speak to them. Citizens should have the clear right to assign their data to data communities or trusts, which act as intermediaries between those who hold data and those who wish to use it, and are designed to ensure that data is shared in a fair, safe and equitable manner.

A great range of bodies have explored and support data communities and data trusts. There is considerable pedigree behind the proposals that the noble Baroness has put forward today, starting with a recommendation of the Hall-Pesenti review. We then had the Royal Society and the British Academy talking about data stewardship; the Ada Lovelace Institute has explored legal mechanisms for data stewardship, including data trusts; the Open Data Institute has been actively researching and piloting data trusts in the real world; the Alan Turing Institute has co-hosted a workshop exploring data trusts; and the Royal Society of Arts has conducted citizens’ juries on AI explainability and explored the use of data trusts for community engagement and outreach.

There are many reasons why data communities are so important. They can help empower individuals, give them more control over their data and ensure that it is used responsibly; they can increase bargaining power, reduce transaction costs, address data law complexity and protect individual rights; they can promote innovation by facilitating data-sharing; and they can promote innovation in the development of new products and services. We need to ensure responsible operation and build trust in data communities. As proposed by Amendment 43 in particular, we should establish a register of data communities overseen by the ICO, along with a code of conduct and complaint mechanisms, as proposed by Amendment 42.

It is high time we move forward on this; we need positive steps. In the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, we do not just seek assurance that there is nothing to prevent these data communities; we need to take positive steps and install mechanisms to make sure that we can set them up and benefit from that.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for leading on this group, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for his valuable comments on these important structures of data communities. Amendments 2, 3, 4 and 25 work in tandem and are designed to enable data communities, meaning associations of individuals who have come together and wish to designate a third party, to act on the group’s behalf in their data use.

There is no doubt that the concept of a data community is a powerful idea that can drive innovation and a great deal of value. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for cataloguing the many groups that have driven powerful thinking in this area, the value of which is very clear. However—and I keep coming back to this when we discuss this idea—what prevents this being done already? I realise that this may be a comparatively trivial example, but if I wanted to organise a community today to oppose a local development, could I not do so with an existing lawful basis for data processing? It is still not clear in what way these amendments would improve my ability to do so, or would reduce my administrative burden or the risks of data misuse.

I look forward to hearing more about this from the Minister today and, ideally, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said, in a briefing on the Government’s plan to drive this forward. However, I remain concerned that we do not necessarily need to drive forward this mechanism by passing new legislation. I look forward to the Minister’s comments.

Amendment 42 would require the Information Commissioner to draw up a code of practice setting out how data communities must operate and how data controllers and processors should engage with these communities. Amendment 43 would create a register of data communities and additional responsibilities for the data community controller. I appreciate the intent of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, in trying to ensure data security and transparency in the operation of data communities. If we on these Benches supported the idea of their creation in this Bill, we would surely have to implement mechanisms of the type proposed in these amendments. However, this observation confirms us in our view that the administration required to operate these communities is starting to look rather burdensome. We should be looking to encourage the use of data to generate economic growth and to make people’s lives easier. I am concerned that the regulation of data communities, were it to proceed as envisaged by these amendments, might risk doing just the opposite. That said, I will listen with interest to the response of noble Lords and the Minister.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Leong) (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 2, 3, 4, 25, 42 and 43. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for these amendments on data communities, which were previously tabled in Committee, and for the new clauses linking these with the Bill’s clauses on smart data.

As my noble friend Lady Jones noted in Committee, the Government support giving individuals greater agency over their data. The Government are strongly supportive of a robust regime of data subject rights and believe strongly in the opportunity presented by data for innovation and economic growth. UK GDPR does not prevent data subjects authorising third parties to exercise certain rights on their behalf. Stakeholders have, however, said that there may be barriers to this in practice.

I reassure noble Lords that the Government are actively exploring how we can support data intermediaries while maintaining the highest data protection standards. It is our intention to publish a call for evidence in the coming weeks on the activities of data intermediaries and the exercise of data subject rights by third parties. This will enable us to ensure that the policy settings on this topic are right.

In the context of smart data specifically, Part 1 of the Bill does not limit who the regulations may allow customers to authorise. Bearing in mind the IT and security-related requirements inherent in smart data schemes, provisions on who a customer may authorise are best determined in the context of a specific scheme, when the regulations are made following appropriate consultation. I hope to provide some additional reassurance that exercise of the smart data powers is subject to data protection legislation and does not displace data rights under that legislation.

There will be appropriate consultation, including with the Information Commissioner’s Office, before smart data schemes are introduced. This year, the Department for Business and Trade will be publishing a strategy on future uses of these powers.

While the smart data schemes and digital verification services are initial examples of government action to facilitate data portability and innovative uses of data, my noble friend Lady Jones previously offered a meeting with officials and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, to discuss these proposals, which I know my officials have arranged for next week—as the noble Baroness indicated earlier. I hope she is therefore content to withdraw her amendment.

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[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, I very much support the amendments from the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Arbuthnot, particularly Amendment 6, about accuracy. It has become apparent—and Committee stage was interesting—that there is a challenge with having gender and sex as interchangeable. The problem becomes physical, because you cannot avoid the fact that you will react differently medically to certain things according to the sex you were born and to your DNA.

That can be very dangerous in two cases. The first case is where drugs or cures are being administered by someone who thinks they are treating a patient of one sex but they are actually a different sex. That could kill someone, quite happily. The second case is if you are doing medical research and relying on something, but then find that half the research is invalid because a person is not actually that sex but have decided to choose another gender. Therefore, all the research on that person could be invalid. That could lead to cures being missed, other things being diagnosed as being all right, and a lot of dangers.

As a society, we have decided that it will be all right for people to change gender—let us say that, as I think it is probably the easiest way to describe it. I do not see any problem with that, but we need critical things to be kept on records that are clearly separate. Maybe we can make decisions in Parliament, or wherever, about what you are allowed to declare on identity documents such as a passport. We need to have two things: one is sex, which is immutable, and therefore can help with all the other things behind the scenes, including research and treatments; the other is gender, which can be what you wish to declare, and society accepts that you can declare yourself as being of another gender. I cannot see any way round that. I have had discussions with people about this, and as one who would have said that this is quite wrong and unnecessary, I was convinced by the end of those discussions that it was right. Keeping the two separate in our minds would solve a lot of problems. These two amendments are vital for that.

I agree in many ways with the points from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. Just allowing some of these changes to be made by the stroke of a pen—a bit like someone is doing across the Atlantic—without coming to Parliament, is perhaps unwise sometimes. The combined wisdom of Parliament, looking at things from a different point of view, and possibly with a more societal point of view than the people who are trying to make systems work on a governmental basis, can be sensible and would avoid other mistakes being made. I certainly support his amendments, but I disagree entirely with his last statement where he did not support the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Arbuthnot.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Lucas for introducing this group and for bringing these important and sometimes very difficult matters to the attention of the House. I will address the amendments slightly out of order, if I may.

For digital verification services to work, the information they have access to and use to verify documents must be accurate; this is, needless to say, critical to the success of the entire scheme. Therefore, it is highly sensible for Amendment 8 to require public authorities, when they disclose information via the information gateway, to ensure that it is accurate and reliable and that they can prove it. By the same measure, Amendment 6, which requires the Secretary of State to assess whether the public authorities listed are collecting accurate information, is equally sensible. These amendments as a pair will ensure the reliability of DVS services and encourage the industry to flourish.

I would like to consider the nature of accurate information, especially regarding an individual’s biological sex. It is possible for an individual to change their recorded sex on their driving licence or passport, for example, without going through the process of obtaining a gender recognition certificate. Indeed, a person can change the sex on their birth certificate if they obtain a GRC, but many would argue that changing some words on a document does not change the reality of a person’s genome, physical presentation and, in some cases, medical needs, meaning that the information recorded does not accurately relate to their sex. I urge the Minister to consider how best to navigate this situation, and to acknowledge that it is crucially important, as we have heard so persuasively from the noble Earl, Lord Errol, and my noble friends Lord Arbuthnot and Lord Lucas, that a person’s sex is recorded accurately to facilitate a fully functioning DVS system.

The DVS trust framework has the potential to rapidly transform the way identities and information are verified. It should standardise digital verification services, ensure reliability and build trust in the concept of a digital verification service. It could seriously improve existing, cumbersome methods of verifying information, saving companies, employers, employees, landlords and tenants time and money. Personally, I have high hopes of its potential to revolutionise the practices of recruitment. I certainly do not know many people who would say no to less admin. If noble Lords are minded to test the opinion of the House, we will certainly support them with respect to Amendments 6 and 8.

With the greatest respect to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I think it is a mistake to regard this as part of some culture war struggle. As I understand it, this is about accuracy of data and the importance, for medical and other reasons, of maintaining accurate data.

All the benefits of DVS cannot be to the detriment of data privacy and data minimisation. Parliament is well-practised at balancing multiple competing concepts and doing so with due regard to public opinion. Therefore, Amendment 7 is indeed a sensible idea.

Finally, Amendment 9 would require the Secretary of State to review whether an offence of false use of identity documents created or verified by a DVS provider is needed. This is certainly worth consideration. I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will require DVS providers to take care that their services are not being used with criminal intent, and I am quite sure that DVS service providers do not want to facilitate crimes. However, the history of technology is surely one of high-minded purposes corrupted by cynical practices. Therefore, it seems prudent for the Secretary of State to conduct a review into whether creating this offence is necessary and, if it is, the best way that it can be laid out in law. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments on this and other matters.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones, Lord Lucas and Lord Arbuthnot, for their amendments and interest in the important area of digital verification services. I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, for his support for this being such an important thing to make life easier for people.

I will go in reverse order and start with Amendment 9. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for reconsidering his stance since Committee on the outright creation of these offences. Amendment 9 would create an obligation for the Secretary of State to review the need for digital identity theft offences. We believe this would be unnecessary, as existing legislation—for example, the Fraud Act 2006, the Computer Misuse Act 1990 and the Data Protection Act 2018—already addresses the behaviour targeted by this amendment.

However, we note the concerns raised and confirm that the Government are taking steps to tackle the issue. First, the Action Fraud service, which allows individuals to report fraud enabled by identity theft, is being upgraded with improved reporting tools, increased intelligence flows to police forces and better support services for victims. Secondly, the Home Office is reviewing the training offered to police officers who have to respond to fraud incidents, and identifying the improvements needed.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for these two technical amendments. I take this opportunity to thank him also for responding to correspondence about LinesearchbeforeUdig and its wish to meet government and work with existing services to deliver what it describes as the safe digging elements of the NUAR. The Minister has confirmed that the heavy lifting on this—not heavy digging—will be carried out by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on her return, which I am sure she will look forward to. As I understand it, officials will meet LinesearchbeforeUdig this week, and they will look at the survey carried out by the service. We have made some process since Committee, and I am grateful to the Minister for that.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, given that these are technical amendments, correcting wording errors, I have little to add to the remarks already made. We have no concerns about these amendments and will not seek to oppose the Government in making these changes.

Amendment 10 agreed.

Moved by

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

11: Clause 56, page 53, line 17, at end insert—
“(2A) The Secretary of State must provide guidance to relevant stakeholders on cyber-security measures before they may receive information from NUAR.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment will require the Secretary of State to provide guidance to relevant stakeholders on security measures before they receive information from NUAR.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 11 and 13 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Markham. The national underground asset register contains the details of all underground assets and apparatus in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, or at any rate it will do as it goes forward. This includes water pipes, electricity cables, internet cables and fibres—details of the critical infrastructure necessary to sustain the UK as we know it.

Needless to say, there are many hostile actors who, if they got their hands on this information, would or could use it to commit appalling acts of terror. I am mindful of and grateful for the Government’s assurances given in Committee that it is and will be subject to rigorous security measures. However, the weakest link in cyber defence is often third-party suppliers and other partners who do not recognise the same level of risk. We should take every possible measure to ensure that the vital data in NUAR is kept safe and shared only with stakeholders who have the necessary security provisions in place.

For this reason, I have tabled Amendment 11, which would require the Secretary of State to provide guidance to relevant stakeholders on the cybersecurity measures which should be in place before they receive information from NUAR. I do not believe this would place a great burden on government departments, as appropriate cybersecurity standards already exist. The key is to ensure that they are duly observed.

I cannot overstate the importance of keeping this information secure, but I doubt noble Lords need much convincing on that score. Given how frighteningly high the stakes are, I strongly urge the most proactive possible approach to cybersecurity, advising stakeholders and taking every possible step to keep us all safe.

Amendment 13, also tabled in my name, requires the Registrar-General to make provisions to ensure the cybersecurity of the newly digitised registers of births, still-births, and deaths. There are a great many benefits in moving from a paper-based register of births and deaths to a digitised version. People no longer have to make the trip to sign the register in person, saving time and simplifying the necessary admin at very busy or very difficult points in people’s lives. It also reduces the number of physical documents that need to be maintained and kept secure. However, in digitising vast quantities of personal, valuable information, we are making a larger attack surface which will appeal to malign actors looking to steal personal data.

I know we discussed this matter in Committee, when the noble Baroness the Minister made the point that this legislation is more about a digitisation drive, in that all records will now be digital rather than paper and digital. While I appreciate her summary, I am not sure it addresses my concerns about the security risks of shifting to a purely digital model. We present a large and tempting attack surface, and the absence of paper back-ups increases the value of digital information even more, as it is the only register. Of course, there are already security measures in place for the digital copies of these registers. I have no doubt we have back-ups and a range of other fallback opportunities. But the same argument applies.

Proactive cybersecurity provisions are required, taking into account the added value of these registers and the ever-evolving threat we face from cybercriminals. I will listen with great interest to the thoughts of other noble Lords and the Minister.

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, and the noble Lord, Lord Markham, for these amendments. Clause 56 forms part of NUAR provisions. The security of NUAR remains of the utmost importance. Because of this, the Government have closely involved a wide range of security stakeholders in the development of NUAR, including the National Protective Security Authority and security teams from the asset owners themselves. Providing clear acceptable user and usage policies for any digital service is important. As such, we intend to establish clear guidance on the appropriate usage of NUAR, including what conditions end users must fulfil before gaining access to the service. This may include cybersecurity arrangements, as well as personal vetting. However, we do not feel it appropriate to include this in the Bill.

Care must be taken when disclosing platform-specific cybersecurity information, as this could provide bad actors with greater information to enable them to counter these measures, ultimately making NUAR less secure. Furthermore, regulations made in relation to access to information from NUAR would be subject to the affirmative procedure. As such, there will be future opportunities for relevant committees to consider in full these access arrangements, including, on an individual basis, any security impacts. I therefore reassure noble Lords that these measures will ensure that access to NUAR data is subject to appropriate safeguards.

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With those explanations, I hope that the noble Viscount will be content to withdraw Amendment 11.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the Minister for his considered reply. It is clear that the Government and the department are taking the issue of security with all due seriousness. However, I remain concerned, particularly about the move to NUAR as a highly tempting attack service for malign actors. In light of this, I am minded to test the opinion of the House.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, we have heard some of the really consistent advocates for children’s online protection today. I must say that I had not realised that the opportunity of signing the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, was rather like getting hold of Taylor Swift tickets—clearly, there was massive competition and rightly so. I pay tribute not only to the speakers today but in particular to the noble Baroness for all her campaigning, particularly with 5Rights, on online child protection.

All these amendments are important for protecting children’s data, because they address concerns about data misuse and the need for heightened protection for children in the digital environment, with enhanced oversight and accountability in the processing of children’s data. I shall not say very much. If the noble Baroness pushes Amendment 20 to a vote, I want to make sure that we have time before the dinner hour to do so, which means going through the next group very quickly. I very much hope that we will get a satisfactory answer from the Minister. The sage advice from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, hit the button exactly.

Amendment 20 is particularly important in this context. It seeks to exclude children from the new provisions on purpose limitation for further processing under Article 8A. As the noble Baroness explains, that means that personal data originally collected from a child with consent for a specific purpose could not be reused for a different, incompatible purpose without obtaining fresh consent, even if the child is now an adult. In my view, that is core. I hope the Minister will come back in the way that has been requested by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, so we do not have to have a vote. However, we will support the noble Baroness if she wishes to test the opinion of the House.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I too thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for all her amendments in this group, and I thank the Minister for his amendment.

Amendment 15 seeks to maintain the high level of legal protection for children’s data even where protections for adults may be eased in the context of scientific research. I acknowledge the concerns raised about the potential implications that this amendment could have for medical research and safeguarding work. It is important to recognise that young people aged 16 and over are entitled to control their medical information under existing legal frameworks, reflecting their ability to understand and consent in specific contexts.

There is a legitimate concern that by excluding all children categorically, including those aged 16 and 17, we risk impeding critical medical research that could benefit young people themselves. Research into safeguarding may also be impacted by such an amendment. Studies that aim to improve systems for identifying and preventing abuse or neglect rely on the careful processing of children’s data. If this amendment were to inadvertently create a barrier to such vital work, we could find ourselves undermining some of the protections that it seeks to reinforce.

That said, the amendment highlights an important issue: the need to ensure that ethical safeguards for children remain robust and proportionate. There is no question that the rights and welfare of children should remain paramount in research contexts, but we must find the right balance—one that allows valuable, ethically conducted research to continue without eroding the legal protections that exist for children’s data. So I welcome the intent of the amendment in seeking to protect children, of course, and I urge us, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, put it, to continue working collaboratively to achieve a framework that upholds their rights without hindering progress in areas that ultimately serve their best interests.

As with the previous amendment, I recognise the intent of Amendment 16, which seeks to protect children’s data by excluding them from the scope of recognised legitimate interests. Ensuring that children continue to benefit from the highest level of legal protection is a goal that, needless to say, we all share. However, I remain concerned that this could have less desirable consequences too, particularly in cases requiring urgent safeguarding action. There are scenarios where swift and proportionate data processing is critical to protecting a child at risk, and it is vital that the framework that we establish does not inadvertently create barriers to such essential work.

I am absolutely in support of Amendment 20. It provides an important safeguard by ensuring that children’s data is not used for purposes beyond those for which it was originally collected, unless it is fully compatible with the original purpose. Children are particularly vulnerable when it comes to data processing and their understanding of consent is limited. The amendment would strengthen protection for children by preventing the use of their data in ways that were not made clear to them or their guardians at the time of collection. It would ensure that children’s data remained secure and was not exploited for unrelated purposes.

On Amendment 22, the overarching duty proposed in this new clause—to prioritise children’s best interests and ensure that their data is handled with due care and attention—aligns with the objective that we all share of safeguarding children in the digital age. We also agree with the principle that the protections afforded to children’s data should not be undermined or reduced, and that those protections should remain consistent with existing standards under the UK GDPR.

However, although we support the intent of the amendment, we have concerns about the reference to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and general comment 25. Although these international frameworks are important, we do not believe they should be explicitly tied into this legislation. Our preference would be for a redraft of this provision that focused more directly on UK law and principles, ensuring that the protections for children’s data were robust and tailored to our legal context, rather than linking it to international standards in a way that could create potential ambiguities.

Undersea Cables

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The detection of breaks is done from land, but the ability to repair them is through an agreement with the commercial companies, which pay into a fund that allows a ship to be on 24/7 standby to provide protection. That is paid for by the companies that put the cables in place.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, we of course recognise and share the Government’s and House’s concern about increased Russian military activity around these undersea cables. I was pleased that the Minister a couple of times referenced the risk assessments going on, but can he tell the House a little more and expand on his earlier answers about those risk assessments? How do they take place and how often do they occur?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The national risk assessment is undertaken regularly and led by the Cabinet Office. In this instance, DSIT is the department responsible for the risk to the cables overall, but it is in collaboration with the MoD, the Cabinet Office and others, particularly in relation to assessing risks other than those that I have outlined.

Large Language Models and Generative AI (Communications and Digital Committee Report)

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, what a pleasure it is to address this compelling, balanced and, in my opinion, excellent report on large language models and generative AI. I thank not just my noble friend Lady Stowell but all noble Lords who were involved in its creation. Indeed, it was my pleasure at one point to appear before the committee in my former ministerial role. As ever, we are having an excellent debate today. I note the view of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that it tends to be the usual suspects in these things, but very good they are too.

We have heard, particularly from my noble friend Lady Stowell and the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, about the need to foster competition. We have also heard about the copyright issue from a number of noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Featherstone, Lady Wheatcroft and Lady Healy, and I will devote some more specific remarks to that shortly.

A number of speakers, and I agree with them, regretted the cancellation of the exascale project and got more deeply into the matter of compute and the investment and energy required for it. I hope the Minister will address that without rehearsing all the arguments about the black hole, which we can all probably recite for ourselves.

We had a very good corrective from the noble Lords, Lord Strasburger and Lord Griffiths of Bury Port, and my noble friend Lord Kamall, that the risks are far-reaching and too serious to treat lightly. In particular, I note the risk of deliberate misuse by powers out of our control. We heard about the need going forward for, if possible, greater clarity about regulatory plans and comparisons with the EU AI Act from my noble friend Lord Ranger. I very much enjoyed and respond to the remarks by the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, about data as a sovereign asset for the UK, whether in healthcare or anything else.

These points and all the points raised in the report underscore the immense potential of AI to revolutionise key sectors of our economy and our society, while also highlighting critical risks that must be addressed. I think we all recognise at heart the essential trade-off in AI policy. How do we foster the extraordinary innovation and growth that AI promises while ensuring it is deployed in ways that keep us safe?

However, today I shall focus more deeply on two areas. The first is copyright offshoring and the second is regulation strategy overall.

The issue of copyright and AI is deeply complex for many reasons. Many of them were very ably set out by my noble friend Lord Kamall. I am concerned that any solution that does not address the offshoring problem is not very far from pointless. Put simply, we could create between us the most exquisitely balanced, perfectly formed and simply explained AI regulation, but any AI lab that did not like it could, in many cases, scrape the same copyrighted content in another jurisdiction with regulations more to its liking. The EU’s AI Act addresses this problem by forbidding the use in the EU of AI tools that have infringed copyright during their training.

Even if this is workable in the EU—frankly, I have my doubts about that—there is a key ingredient missing that would make it workable anywhere. That ingredient is an internationally recognised technical standard to indicate copyright status, ownership and licence terms. Such a standard would allow content owners to watermark copyrighted materials. Whether the correct answer is pursuing an opt in or opt out of TDM is a topic for another day, but it would at least enable that to go forward technically. Crucially, it would allow national regulators to identify copyright infringements globally. Will the Minister say whether he accepts this premise and, if so, what progress he is aware of towards the development of an international technical standard of this kind?

I turn now to the topic of AI regulation strategy. I shall make two brief points. First, as a number of noble Lords put it very well, AI regulation has to adapt to fast-moving technology changes. That means that it has to target principles, rather than specific use cases where possible. Prescriptive regulation of technology does not just face early obsolescence, but relies fatally on necessarily rigid definitions of highly dynamic concepts.

Secondly, the application of AI is completely different across sectors. That means that the bulk of regulatory heavy lifting needs to be done by existing sector regulators. As set out in the previous Government’s White Paper, this work needs to be supported by central functions. Those include horizon scanning for future developments, co-ordination where AI cuts across sectors, supporting AI skills development, the provision of regulatory sandboxes and the development of data and other standards such as the ATRS. If these and other functions were to end up as the work of a single AI regulatory body, then so much the better, but I do not believe that such an incorporation is mission critical at this stage.

I was pleased that the committee’s report was generally supportive of this position and, indeed, refined it to great effect. Do the Government remain broadly aligned to this approach? If not, where will the differences lie?

While many of us may disagree to one degree or another on AI policy, I do not believe there is really any disagreement about what we are trying to achieve. We must seize this moment to champion a forward-looking AI strategy—one that places the UK at the forefront of global innovation while preserving our values of fairness, security, and opportunity for all.

Like the committee—or as we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, like many members of the committee—I remain at heart deeply optimistic. We can together ensure that AI serves as a tool to enhance lives, strengthen our economy, and secure our national interests. This is a hugely important policy area, so let me close by asking the Minister if he can update this House as regularly and frequently as possible on the regulation of AI and LLMs.

Satellites: Adverse Effects on Astronomy

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

This is a critical question. The Royal Institute of Navigation has recently—in fact, today—launched a paper on how to prepare for this. It is something that all critical national infrastructure will be urged to look at, to have a plan for what would happen in the event of GPS failure. There is a longer-term question about the alternatives to space-based navigation and there is active work going on in the UK on terrestrial approaches, including the use of quantum systems to try to get a robust secondary approach to PNT.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, now that over 70 nations have their own space agency, how will the Government pursue the widest and most effective possible international co-operation in support of Astra Carta’s aim,

“to care for the infinite wonders of the universe”?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

There is a series of international collaborations in place. We are a member of the European Space Agency. A large proportion of the £1.9 billion of the UK Space Agency money goes to the European Space Agency and our collaborators there. We also spend through the MoD and through UKRI. We are members of the UN bodies that deal with the question of a sustainable space sector and space environment. The space environment is increasingly important and needs attention. We will continue to raise this question at the UN bodies.

Science and Technology: Economy

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, it has been an absolutely brilliant debate, and I join others in thanking the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, for bringing it forward. I also join others in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Freeman. Many years from now, eventually “Walking with Dinosaurs” will be a fantastic title for her memoir, but we are not there yet. I have been asked to slightly curtail my remarks and I am very happy to do that. I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I do not reflect on everything that has been said in the debate, but rather offer, just to begin with, some of my personal highlights from what I heard.

As a theme, it is clear that we are as one in deeply recognising and valuing the contribution that science and technology can and will make to our economy. Sadly, and frustratingly, many different approaches have been advanced as to how we can best finance that. I hope that we can be on the path of constant improvement to get more investment into this crucial space. I noted a sense of ruefulness from my noble friend Lord Willetts as he said that the role of the Science Minister was to extract money from the Treasury; I am pleased to say that we have somewhat moved on from this position.

I was very struck by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, reminding us of the growing importance of international rivalry in this space. I think that is going to play an increasing part in our deliberations here.

The noble Lords, Lord St John of Bletso, Lord Tarassenko and Lord Drayson, asked, one way or another: where are our Metas or Alphabets? It is a question that certainly bugs me. Let us hope that, between us, we can move towards more of an answer. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, spoke powerfully about the issue of IP retention in universities, and that is clearly something we need to continue to look at.

The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, raised the issue of standards and regulations. There are not many silver bullets in technology regulation, but standards will be one of them. International global standards, particularly for instance with the copyright issue in AI, are going to be a big part of that solution.

I absolutely share the wish of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle to foster a faster-growing tech community in the north-east of England. If I may, I commend to her the work of the brilliant organisation CyberNorth; she may know it already.

Innovation is not merely an advantage; it is the foundation of economic growth and global competitiveness. Science and tech are no longer confined to laboratories or research institutions; they are part of the fabric of almost all the work we are doing of any kind across this country.

As of last year, we are one of three countries in the world with a trillion-dollar tech sector. Today, that sector contributes £150 billion annually to the UK economy, a figure that reflects not only the sector’s rapid growth to this point but its remarkable potential for expansion. With emerging fields that have been mentioned many times—quantum AI, engineering biology, and so on—we have the opportunity to cement the UK’s status as a global leader in scientific and technological innovation.

Of course, the contributions of science and tech, as I enjoyed hearing from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, are not limited to economic growth. They enhance our resilience in the face of global challenges. I frequently argue that for all the amazing scientific advances we have seen over recent years, perhaps the most impactful was the development of the Covid vaccine, which I think we can all agree underscored, among other things, the power of UK-led scientific innovation, saving lives and demonstrating the critical impact of robust scientific infrastructure.

Investment in science and technology is also an investment in the workforce of tomorrow. The noble Lord, Lord Mair, and others raised this point very powerfully, as did my noble friend Lord Willetts and the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Warwick. By prioritising education in STEM fields and by fostering partnerships between industry and academia, we are equipping future generations with the skills and knowledge required to thrive in a rapidly evolving landscape. It is not only essential for individual opportunity but vital to our ongoing economic competitiveness.

I want to address some pressing concerns raised by yesterday’s Budget. The Chancellor announced a significant allocation of £20.4 billion for research and development, including £6.1 billion aimed specifically at protecting core research funding. There is no doubt that this funding is crucial for advancing the core of our scientific curriculum. However, the research community has expressed some apprehensions regarding the implications of this. The Budget allocates an increased £2.7 billion for association with EU research programmes and covers the cost of the old Horizon Europe guarantee scheme. This means we are committing with this money not only to new funding but to managing the cost of past obligations. I would welcome some clarity from the Minister on how this is going to break down.

Further, as raised by my noble friend Lord Waldegrave, the abruptness of the decision over the summer to cancel the exascale computing investment—which was, by the way, fully funded through DSIT’s budget, contrary, I am afraid, to statements from the Government that I have heard from time to time—must stand as a significant red flag to AI investors, if only for its unexpectedness and suddenness. When we take this together with the additional costs and risks of hiring staff, the reduction of incentives to invest in technology and the—in my view, rather aggressive—treatment of non-domiciled investors, I think we have grounds for concern. I wonder whether, when the Minister rises, he could tell us to what he attributes our leadership today in science and tech. Is he concerned that these decisions may diminish that leadership and, if so, what do the Government propose to do about it?

That said, I am keen to close on a note of excitement and positivity. Ray Kurzweil, of “singularity” fame, argues that the time between major advances in science and technology diminishes exponentially. If he is right, the technologies available to us at the end of this Parliament will be truly staggering. So let us all be working together to make sure that as many of those breakthroughs as possible are delivered and safely exploited in this science and tech superpower, the United Kingdom.

Artificial Intelligence: Regulation

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Thursday 17th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

That is an area that of course comes under several other parts of regulation already. It is also an area where there are massive changes in the way that these models perform. If one looks at GPT-4 versus GPT-3—I know it is not facial recognition, but it gives an indication of the types of advances—it is about twice as good now as it was a year ago. These things are moving fast and there is indeed a need to understand exactly how facial recognition technology is valid and where it has problems in recognition.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, the supply chain for the development of the more advanced AI systems is, in almost every case, highly global in nature. That means that it becomes quite straightforward for AI developers to offshore their activities from any jurisdiction whose regulations they might prefer not to follow. This being the case, do the Government agree that the regulations for AI development, as distinguished mostly from use, are going to have to be global in nature? If the Government agree with that, how is it reflected in their plans for AI regulation going forward?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The noble Viscount makes an important point. This will be global; there is no question about it. Therefore, there needs to be some degree of interoperability between different regions in terms of the regulations put in place. At the moment, as I said, of the two most advanced, the US is the biggest AI nation in the world and is developing a regulation along similar lines to ours, we believe. The EU is of course the most regulated place in the world for AI and we need to work out, in consultation over the next months, how to make sure that we work out where the areas of interoperability will lie.

Framework Convention on Artificial Intelligence

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The convention sets out activities in the life cycle of AI systems, and they should not infringe our values of human rights, democratic processes and the effectiveness of democratic institutions or the rule of law. It applies to the public sector, to the public sector when using the private sector, and there is an obligation to consider how private sector activities can be taken into account when this is implemented in a national framework.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, international bodies currently working on AI safety and regulation include the UN, UNESCO, the ITU, the G7, the G20 and the GPI, among several others. Do the Government agree that although each of these groups is crucial and has a very important role to play in creating safe and well-regulated AI globally, they will be successful only to the extent that they are effectively co-ordinated? If so, what steps are the Government taking to bring that about?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

We are in active discussion with all those partners. As we consider an AI Act, we will work closely with partners in the US and elsewhere and apply it only to the limited number of companies at the very forefront of AI, to those models of tomorrow which carry particular risk and, again, where guard-rails have been asked for.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Viscount Camrose]

That this House do not insist on its Amendments 9 and 19, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 19A.

19A: Because it is appropriate for the CMA to be required to act proportionately in relation to conduct requirements and pro-competition interventions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, I will also speak to Motions A1, B, B1, C, C1, C2 and D.

I start by thanking noble Lords for their constructive input and careful scrutiny during the passage of the Bill. We have created legislation that will drive innovation and deliver better outcomes for consumers across the UK by addressing barriers to competition in digital markets and tackling consumer rip-offs.

The Bill has been strengthened in many places in this House. However, today, I will speak to Motions A to D, which address amendments that remain to be agreed across the Bill. The Government ask that this House does not insist on the amendments rejected in the other place and that it agrees to the amendment proposed in lieu of changes proposed by noble Lords.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tyrie (Non-Afl)]

Does the Minister not agree that since, with a merits appeal, a fine could be reduced to nugatory amounts, that what would be considered equivalent to a full merits review of the substantive decision?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

That would be in respect only of the fine itself. Any other element of the decision, such as the imposition of new conduct requirements or other actions taken to correct anti-competitive effects in the market, would stand and would have been standing throughout the appeal in any event.

I turn to Motion B, which addresses Amendments 12 and 13, on the countervailing benefits exemption, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. The amendment looks to revert the clause back to its original wording of

“the conduct is indispensable ... to … those benefits”.

The Government’s revised wording, which replaces “indispensable”, does not change the effect of the clause. It still requires the same high threshold to be met and has the same safeguards. To qualify for the exemption, SMS firms must establish that all the criteria are met. There must be no other reasonable, practicable way to achieve the same benefits to consumers with a less anti-competitive effect. I hope that noble Lords feel reassured that the Government’s drafting maintains the same robust threshold and keeps consumers at the heart of the pro-competition regime.

Your Lordships will remember Amendment 38, tabled by my noble friend Lord Lansley, which sought to place in the Bill a 40-day timeframe for the Secretary of State’s approval of CMA guidance. The Government listened carefully to concerns led by my noble friend relating to a risk of delay in the digital markets regime. We are absolutely committed to getting this regime up and running to start fixing competition problems and deliver greater consumer benefit.

To reinforce this commitment, the Government have tabled Amendment 38A in lieu. This takes the spirit of my noble friend’s amendment and merely adjusts the time limit to working days to align with other timelines in the Bill. It also asks for reasons if guidance is not approved within the time limit. I hope that this provides reassurances to noble Lords about our commitment to the digital markets regime. I thank my noble friend for championing this matter in earlier debates and for his support for the amendment in lieu.

Once again, I thank noble Lords for their contributions during the Bill’s passage and I look forward to others during this debate. Across this House, we are all committed to making the DMCC Bill the best and most effective legislation it can be. I therefore invite noble Lords to agree the government Motions before them. I beg to move.

Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A)

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

If we are not able to make progress on this, and if the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, wishes to test the opinion of the House, we will support him. I look forward to the Minister’s response on all these issues.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate today and, of course, throughout the development of this legislation. It has been a characteristically brilliant debate; I want to thank all noble Lords for their various and valuable views.

I turn first to the Motions tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, in relation to appeals and proportionality. I thank him for his continued engagement and constructive debate on these issues. We of course expect the CMA to behave in a proportionate manner at all times as it operates the digital market regime. However, today we are considering specifically the statutory requirement for proportionality in the Bill. We are making it clear that the DMU must design conduct requirements and PCIs to place as little burden as possible on firms, while still effectively addressing competition issues. The proposed amendments would not remove the reference to proportionality in Clause 21 and so, we feel, do not achieve their intended aim, but I shall set out the Government’s position on why proportionality is required.

On the question of the wording of “appropriate” versus “proportionate”, proportionality is a well-understood and precedented concept with a long history of case law. “Appropriate” would be a more subjective threshold, giving the CMA broader discretion. The Government’s position is that proportionality is the right threshold to be met in legislation due to the fact that it applies, in the vast majority of cases, because of ECHR considerations. It is the Government’s view that the same requirement for proportionality should apply whether or not ECHR rights are engaged.

As Article 1 of Protocol 1—A1P1—of the European Convention on Human Rights will apply to the vast majority of conduct requirements and PCIs imposed by the CMA, with the result that the courts will apply a proportionality requirement, we consider it important that it should be explicit that there is a statutory proportionality requirement for all conduct requirements and PCIs. We believe that proportionality should be considered beyond just those cases where A1P1 may apply, in particular when a conduct requirement or PCI would impact future contracts of an SMS firm.

The courts’ approach to proportionality in relation to consideration of ECHR rights has been set out by the Supreme Court, and we do not expect them to take a different approach here. Furthermore, the CAT will accord respect to the expert judgments of the regulator and will not seek to overturn its judgments lightly. I hope this answers the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks.

On appeals, I thank noble Lords for their engagement on this matter, and in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for setting out the rationale for her Amendments 32B and 32C, which seek to provide further clarity about where on the merits appeals apply. I want to be clear that the Government’s intention is that only penalty decisions will be appealable on the merits and that this should not extend to earlier decisions about whether an infringement occurred. I do not consider these amendments necessary, for the following reasons.

The Bill draws a clear distinction between penalty decisions and those about infringements, with these being covered by separate Clauses 89 and 103. There is a Court of Appeal precedent in BCL v BASF 2009 that, in considering a similar competition framework, draws a clear distinction between infringement decisions and penalty decisions. The Government consider that the CAT and the higher courts will have no difficulty in making this distinction for digital markets appeals to give effect to the legislation as drafted.

I now turn to the Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in respect of the countervailing benefits exemption. I thank the noble Lord for his engagement with me and the Bill team on this important topic. The noble Lord has asked for clarification that the “indispensability” standard in Section 9 of the Competition Act 1998, and the wording,

“those benefits could not be realised without the conduct”,

are equivalent to each other. I want to be clear that the exemption within this regime and the exemption in Section 9 of the Competition Act 1998 are different. This is because they operate in wholly different contexts, with different criteria and processes. This would be the case however the exemption is worded in this Bill. That is why the Explanatory Notes refer to a “similar” exemption, because saying it is “equivalent” would be technically incorrect.

Having said that, the “indispensability” standard and the threshold of the Government’s wording,

“those benefits could not be realised without the conduct”,

are equally high. While the exemptions themselves are different, I hope I can reassure noble Lords that the Government’s view is that the standard—the height of the threshold—is, indeed, equivalent. The Government still believe that the clarity provided by simplifying the language provides greater certainty to all businesses, while ensuring that consumers get the best outcomes.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for his question in relation to the Google privacy sandbox case. The CMA considers a range of consumer benefits under its existing consumer objective. This can include the privacy of consumers. It worked closely with the ICO to assess data privacy concerns in its Google privacy sandbox investigation and we expect it would take a similar approach under this regime.

I urge all noble Lords to consider carefully the Motions put forward by the Government and hope all Members will feel able—

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

Will the Government update the Explanatory Notes?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed. In principle I am very happy to update the Explanatory Notes, but I need to engage with ministerial colleagues. However, I see no reason why that would not be possible.

Meanwhile, I hope all noble Lords will feel able to support the Government’s position.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, before the Minister sits down, may I just press him on proportionality? I understand the argument to be that a proportionality test should be applied in this context even though it is not required in all cases by the European Convention on Human Rights. I see the Minister nodding. Will that now be the general position of the Government, because it is not the law in relation to judicial review generally that there is a proportionality test? If that is to the position of the Government, it would be a very significant development which some of us would welcome and some of us would not. I declare an interest, of course, as one of those lawyers referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, as looking to take advantage on behalf of their clients. It is a very real issue; how far does this go?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

It goes only so far as its application to the Bill now. I am not aware of any further measures to take it into other Bills and would not expect to see any.

[Lord Faulks (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s response on that issue. I asked him the same question that I have asked throughout these proceedings—it is the same question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick—and there does not seem, with great respect, to be an answer to it. The Minister has mostly allowed, to use a cricketing metaphor, the matter to go past the off stump without playing a shot. What really seems to be the position is that he says that proportionality will apply, even if the Human Rights Act or a convention right is not involved. But I think that, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, the Minister is saying, “But only in the case of this Bill”. What that means is that big tech is getting a special privilege not afforded to any other litigant in any other context. I ask noble Lords, “Is that a good look?” I do not think that it is.

The Commons reason for preferring “proportionate” to “appropriate” reads as follows:

“Because it is appropriate for the CMA to be required to act proportionately in relation to conduct requirements and pro-competition interventions”.


I do not know whether that was supposed to be a joke, but it is profoundly unsatisfactory. The Government have missed a trick—or rather, they have succumbed to considerable pressure. I welcome the Bill because there is a great deal about it which is good. Having thought very carefully, and with considerable reluctance, I propose to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Camrose]

That this House do not insist on its Amendments 12 and 13, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 13A.

13A: Because it is clearer for proportionality to appear as a separate consideration in the countervailing benefits exemption.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I have already spoken to Motion B. I beg to move.

Motion B1 (as an amendment to Motion B)

[Lord Clement-Jones]

Tabled by

Leave out from “House” to end and insert “do not insist on its Amendment 12, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 13A, and do insist on its Amendment 13.”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Camrose]

That this House do not insist on its Amendments 26, 27, 28, 31 and 32, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 32A.

32A: Because it is appropriate for all appeals about the imposition of a penalty under Chapter 7 of Part 1 to be determined on the merits.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I have already spoken to Motion C. I beg to move.

Motion C1 not moved.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Camrose]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 38, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 38A in lieu.

38A: Page 70, line 37, at end insert—
“(5) When the CMA seek the approval of the Secretary of State for guidance, the Secretary of State must— (a) approve the guidance, or
(b) give reasons to the CMA for not approving it.
(6) The Secretary of State must comply with subsection (5) before the end of the 30th working day after the day on which the CMA seek the Secretary of State’s approval.”

Artificial Intelligence (Regulation) Bill [HL]

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 10th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

My Lords, I regret that I was unable to speak at Second Reading of the Bill. I am grateful to the government Benches for allowing my noble friend Lady Twycross to speak on my behalf on that occasion. However, I am pleased to be able to return to your Lordships’ House with a clean bill of health, to speak at Third Reading of this important Bill. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, on the progress of his Private Member’s Bill.

Having read the whole debate in Hansard, I think it is clear that there is consensus about the need for some kind of AI regulation. The purpose, form and extent of this regulation will, of course, require further debate. AI has the potential to transform the world and deliver life-changing benefits for working people: whether delivering relief through earlier cancer diagnosis or relieving traffic congestion for more efficient deliveries, AI can be a force for good. However, the most powerful AI models could, if left unchecked, spread misinformation, undermine elections and help terrorists to build weapons.

A Labour Government would urgently introduce binding regulation and establish a new regulatory innovation office for AI. This would make Britain the best place in the world to innovate, by speeding up decisions and providing clear direction based on our modern industrial strategy. We believe this will enable us to harness the enormous power of AI, while limiting potential damage and malicious use, so that it can contribute to our plans to get the economy growing and give Britain its future back.

The Bill sends an important message about the Government’s responsibility to acknowledge and address how AI affects people’s jobs, lives, data and privacy, in the rapidly changing technological environment in which we live. Once again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, for bringing it forward, and I urge His Majesty’s Government to give proper consideration to the issues raised. As ever, I am grateful to noble Lords across the House for their contributions. We support and welcome the principles behind the Bill, and we wish it well as it goes to the other place.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, I too sincerely thank my noble friend Lord Holmes for bringing forward the Bill. Indeed, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in what has been, in my opinion, a brilliant debate.

I want to reassure noble Lords that, since Second Reading of the Bill in March, the Government have continued to make progress in their regulatory approach to artificial intelligence. I will take this opportunity to provide an update on just a few developments in this space, some of which speak to the measures proposed by the Bill.

First, the Government want to build public visibility of what regulators are doing to implement our pro-innovation approach to AI. Noble Lords may recall that we wrote to key regulators in February asking them for an update on this. Regulators have now published their updates, which include an analysis of AI-related opportunities and risks in the areas that they regulate, and the actions that they are taking to address these. On 1 May, we published a GOV.UK page where people can access each regulator’s update.

We have taken steps to establish a multidisciplinary risk-monitoring function within the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, bringing together expertise in risk, regulation and AI. This expertise will provide continuous examination of cross-cutting AI risks, including evaluating the effectiveness of interventions by government and regulators.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

Before the noble Viscount sits down, he listed a whole series of activities that are very welcome, but I said at Second Reading that I felt the Government were losing momentum, because the Prime Minister had set an international lead: the United Kingdom was going to lead the world and would be an example to everybody. It seems, with the Minister’s statement, that we have slipped back now. The European Union has set out its stall. If we are not going to have a legislative framework, we need to know that. I just hope the Government will reflect that the position the Prime Minister adopted at the beginning of this process was innovative, positive and good for the United Kingdom as a whole, but I fear that the loss of momentum means we will be slipping back down at a very rapid rate.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I am not sure I accept the characterisation of a loss of momentum. We are, after all, co-hosting the AI safety summit along with our Korean friends in a couple of weeks. On moving very quickly to legislation, it has always been the Government’s position that it is better to have a deeper understanding of the specific risks of AI across each sector and all sectors before legislating too narrowly, and that there is a real advantage to waiting for the right moment to have judicious legislation that addresses specific risks, rather than blanket legislation that goes to all of them.

AI: Intellectual Property Rights

Viscount Camrose Excerpts

Thursday 9th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my technology interests, as set out in the register, as an adviser to Boston Ltd.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, this is a complex and challenging area. We strongly support AI innovation in the UK, but this cannot be at the expense of our world-leading creative industries. Our goal is that both sectors should be able to grow together in partnership. We are currently working with DCMS to develop a way forward on copyright and AI. We will engage closely with interested stakeholders as we develop our approach.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, our great UK creatives—musicians who make such sweet sounds where otherwise there may be silence; writers who fill the blank page with words of meaning that move us; our photographers; our visual artists—are a creative community contributing billions to the UK economy, growing at twice the rate of the UK economy. In the light of this, why are the Government content for their work, their IP and their copyright to be so disrespected and unprotected in the face of artificial intelligence?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the important point he raises, particularly stressing the importance to the United Kingdom of the creative industry, which contributes 6% of our GVA every year. The Government are far from content with this position and share the frustrations and concerns of many across the sector in trying to find a way forward on the AI and copyright issue. As I say, it is challenging and deeply complex. No jurisdiction anywhere has identified a truly satisfactory solution to this issue, but we continue to work internationally and nationally to seek one.

[Lord Ranger of Northwood (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. As I said in my letter last week to the Secretary of State on behalf of the Communications and Digital Select Committee, the Government’s reluctance to take a clear position on copyright in the context of AI and large language models is leading to

“problematic business models … becoming entrenched and normalised”.

The Government urgently need to take a clear position, and soon. On a practical basis, what support are they giving to market-led initiatives to improve licensing deals for news publishers and to get collective licensing regimes off the ground, to ensure that smaller rights-holders are also not left behind?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend and her committee for that important letter. First, we must not underestimate the difficulty and complexity of the issues involved in resolving this question; there are very problematic jurisdictional and technical issues. That said, the Government greatly welcome any arrangement between private sector organisations finding a way forward on this; we can all learn a great deal from the success of those arrangements. We believe that a collaborative way forward on both sides, in partnership, will be a very important part of the eventual solution.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister was right to say that we should recognise that AI can bring opportunities to the creative sector. For example, nearly a decade after a near-fatal stroke, the musician Randy Travis has released a new song featuring AI-generated vocals. This has been done with his consent and the involvement of his record label, but elsewhere, as we have heard, AI tools are being widely used to create music in the style of established artists, despite no permission having been given and a total lack of creative control on the part of those artists and their representatives. Can the Minister outline how the Government are actively involving musicians, artists and writers in determining how best to protect that very precious intellectual property, while allowing creativity to flourish? I echo the noble Baroness’s theme: this is an urgent matter and we would like to hear how the Government will address it.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The issue raised by the noble Baroness is of deep concern to everybody. As I say, there are some very serious problems, not least regarding the jurisdiction where any alleged infringement may or may not have taken place. Of course, any jurisdiction that implements rules one way or the other will find that the AI work she sets out so compellingly is simply offshored elsewhere. The Government engage very closely with creative groups, including fair remuneration groups for musicians and many others, and will continue to do so, looking for a solution to this difficult problem.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Viscount told the Lords Communications and Digital Select Committee that he did not

“believe that infringing the rights of copyright holders is a necessary precondition for developing successful AI”.

Does he still hold to that view, and does he accept that it should be the clearly stated view of the Government?

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[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I do not believe that the AI industry, in the long term, will require long-standing copyright infringement for its success. That is and continues to be the Government’s view; any unauthorised use or copying of intellectual property or copyrighted material is an infringement. Of course, there is a range of exceptions to that, and there is the possibility of giving permission for that to happen. It becomes a very complex area, both legally and technologically, but, as I say, we continue to look for a solution.

[Lord Ranger of Northwood (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I am most grateful. AI is already creating IP of its own, but it is unable to register it because, by law, a human being needs to register IP. In trying to create a legislative bottle into which this genie could be reinserted, have the Government taken that into account?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a very interesting question. The laws surrounding the copyrighting of machine-generated content are getting fairly elderly now and certainly need to be looked at as part of the overall position going forward.

[Lord Ranger of Northwood (Con)]

My Lords, it is clear from the questions being raised that this is a very complex area, not least because we are bringing together the creative and legal industries and the technologists who are programming, developing and trying to stay ahead of the curve on this. What plans do the two departments involved in developing the code of practice have urgently to engage with industry—especially over the summer, when there will be a number of events and activities, including London Tech Week—so that we can more quickly develop the code and other requirements?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Perhaps my noble friend will forgive me if I gaze into a crystal ball for a moment and predict that the eventual solution to this will involve three elements: first, some modifications to our copyright legislation; secondly, some use of technology to enable a solution; and thirdly, internationally accepted standards of interoperability in any eventual solution. We engage widely with techUK and other technology partners, but above all we engage extensively internationally. I point to our specific engagements with the World Intellectual Property Organization, the UN agency the ITU, and of course the follow-up to the AI Safety Summit, which we are co-hosting in Seoul in a couple of weeks’ time.

[Baroness Featherstone (LD)]

My Lords, what action are the Government taking to compel AI companies to implement measures to monitor and report IP infringements?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

One of the principles we set out in our AI White Paper is transparency. That principle—repeated across the OECD and in the EU’s AI Act—will go a long way towards doing what the noble Baroness asks. There are, though, a number of technical difficulties in implementing transparency—not legally, from our side, but rather, the computer science problems associated with processing the very large quantities of data required to generate true transparency.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, a lot of people are excited by the prospects for AI. Indeed, this country is in the lead in developing such policies and the associated opportunities. As one of those involved in preparing the GDPR in Brussels, I am concerned that the opportunities and excitement associated with the use of AI must be balanced against the protection of individual privacy and the rights of corporate structures and individuals who are worried about the abuses that might occur unless legislators are up to date and moving fast enough to deal with these matters.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My noble friend makes some important points: AI must advance on the back of well-executed data protection. Let me take the opportunity to thank him for his outstanding contributions during the recently completed Committee stage of the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill. We continue to share the goal that he set up.