Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Report stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for introducing this group. I will speak particularly to the amendment in my name but before I do so, I want to say how much I agree with the noble Baroness and with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that it is a matter of regret that we are not simultaneously looking at an AI Bill. I worry that this Bill has to take a lot of the weight that an AI Bill would otherwise take, but we will come to that in a great deal more detail in later groups.

I will address the two amendments in this group in reverse order. Amendment 5 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Markham would remove Clause 13, which makes provision for the Secretary of State or the Treasury to give financial assistance to decision-makers and enforcers—that is, in essence, to act as a financial backstop. While I appreciate the necessity of guaranteeing the stability of enforcers who are public authorities and therefore branches of state, I am concerned that this has been extended to decision-makers. The Bill does not make the identity of a decision-maker clear. Therefore, I wonder who exactly we are protecting here. Unless those individuals or bodies or organisations can be clearly defined, how can we know whether we should extend financial assistance to them?

I raised these concerns in Committee and the Minister assured us at that time that smart data schemes should be self-financing through fees and levies as set out in Clauses 11 and 12 and that this provision is therefore a back-up plan. If that is indeed the case and we are assured of the self-funding nature of smart data schemes, then what exactly makes this necessary? Why must the statutory spending authority act as a backstop if we do not believe there is a risk it will be needed? If we do think there is such a risk, can the Minister elaborate on what it is?

I turn now to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, which would require data traders to supply customers with information that has been used by AI to build a profile on them. While transparency and explainability are hugely important, I worry that the mechanism proposed here will be too burdensome. The burden would grow linearly with the scale of the models used. Collating and supplying this information would, I fear, increase the cost of doing business for traders. Given AI’s potential to be an immense asset to business, helping generate billions of pounds for the UK economy—and, by the way, I rather approve of the boosterish tone and think we should strive for a great deal more growth in the economy—we should not seek to make its use more administratively burdensome for business. Furthermore, since the information is AI-generated, it is going to be a guess or an assumption or an inference. Therefore, should we require companies to disclose not just the input data but the intermediate and final outputs? Speaking as a consumer, I am not sure that I personally would welcome this. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s responses.

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, for their proposed amendments and continued interest in Part 1 of this Bill. I hope I can reassure the noble Baroness that the definition of customer data is purposefully broad. It encompasses information relating to a customer or a trader and the Government consider that this would indeed include inferred data. The specific data to be disclosed under a smart data scheme will be determined in the context of that scheme and I reassure the noble Baroness that there will be appropriate consultation before a smart data scheme is introduced.

I turn to Amendment 5. Clause 13 provides statutory authority for the Secretary of State or the Treasury to give financial assistance to decision-makers, enforcers and others for the purpose of meeting any expense in the exercise of their functions in the smart data schemes. Existing and trusted bodies such as sector regulators will likely be in the lead of the delivery of new schemes. These bodies will act as decision-makers and enforcers. It is intended that smart data schemes will be self-financing through the fees and levies produced by Clauses 11 and 12. However, because of the nature of the bodies that are involved, it is deemed appropriate for there to be a statutory spending authority as a backstop provision if that is necessary. Any spending commitment of resources will, of course, be subject to the usual estimates process and to existing public sector spending controls and transparency requirements.

I hope that with this brief explanation of the types of bodies involved, and the other explanations, the noble Baroness will be content to withdraw Amendment 1 and that noble Lords will not press Amendment 5.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his reassurance, particularly that we will have an opportunity for a consultation on exactly how the smart data scheme works. I look forward to such agreement throughout the afternoon. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Lucas for introducing this group and for bringing these important and sometimes very difficult matters to the attention of the House. I will address the amendments slightly out of order, if I may.

For digital verification services to work, the information they have access to and use to verify documents must be accurate; this is, needless to say, critical to the success of the entire scheme. Therefore, it is highly sensible for Amendment 8 to require public authorities, when they disclose information via the information gateway, to ensure that it is accurate and reliable and that they can prove it. By the same measure, Amendment 6, which requires the Secretary of State to assess whether the public authorities listed are collecting accurate information, is equally sensible. These amendments as a pair will ensure the reliability of DVS services and encourage the industry to flourish.

I would like to consider the nature of accurate information, especially regarding an individual’s biological sex. It is possible for an individual to change their recorded sex on their driving licence or passport, for example, without going through the process of obtaining a gender recognition certificate. Indeed, a person can change the sex on their birth certificate if they obtain a GRC, but many would argue that changing some words on a document does not change the reality of a person’s genome, physical presentation and, in some cases, medical needs, meaning that the information recorded does not accurately relate to their sex. I urge the Minister to consider how best to navigate this situation, and to acknowledge that it is crucially important, as we have heard so persuasively from the noble Earl, Lord Errol, and my noble friends Lord Arbuthnot and Lord Lucas, that a person’s sex is recorded accurately to facilitate a fully functioning DVS system.

The DVS trust framework has the potential to rapidly transform the way identities and information are verified. It should standardise digital verification services, ensure reliability and build trust in the concept of a digital verification service. It could seriously improve existing, cumbersome methods of verifying information, saving companies, employers, employees, landlords and tenants time and money. Personally, I have high hopes of its potential to revolutionise the practices of recruitment. I certainly do not know many people who would say no to less admin. If noble Lords are minded to test the opinion of the House, we will certainly support them with respect to Amendments 6 and 8.

With the greatest respect to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I think it is a mistake to regard this as part of some culture war struggle. As I understand it, this is about accuracy of data and the importance, for medical and other reasons, of maintaining accurate data.

All the benefits of DVS cannot be to the detriment of data privacy and data minimisation. Parliament is well-practised at balancing multiple competing concepts and doing so with due regard to public opinion. Therefore, Amendment 7 is indeed a sensible idea.

Finally, Amendment 9 would require the Secretary of State to review whether an offence of false use of identity documents created or verified by a DVS provider is needed. This is certainly worth consideration. I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will require DVS providers to take care that their services are not being used with criminal intent, and I am quite sure that DVS service providers do not want to facilitate crimes. However, the history of technology is surely one of high-minded purposes corrupted by cynical practices. Therefore, it seems prudent for the Secretary of State to conduct a review into whether creating this offence is necessary and, if it is, the best way that it can be laid out in law. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments on this and other matters.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones, Lord Lucas and Lord Arbuthnot, for their amendments and interest in the important area of digital verification services. I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, for his support for this being such an important thing to make life easier for people.

I will go in reverse order and start with Amendment 9. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for reconsidering his stance since Committee on the outright creation of these offences. Amendment 9 would create an obligation for the Secretary of State to review the need for digital identity theft offences. We believe this would be unnecessary, as existing legislation—for example, the Fraud Act 2006, the Computer Misuse Act 1990 and the Data Protection Act 2018—already addresses the behaviour targeted by this amendment.

However, we note the concerns raised and confirm that the Government are taking steps to tackle the issue. First, the Action Fraud service, which allows individuals to report fraud enabled by identity theft, is being upgraded with improved reporting tools, increased intelligence flows to police forces and better support services for victims. Secondly, the Home Office is reviewing the training offered to police officers who have to respond to fraud incidents, and identifying the improvements needed.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. He is equating digital identity theft to fraud, and that is not always the case. Is that the advice that he has received?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The advice is that digital identity theft would be captured by those Acts. Therefore, there is no need for a specific offence. However, as I said, the Government are taking steps to tackle this and will support the Action Fraud service as a way to deal with it, even though I agree that not everything falls as fraud under that classification.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but could he therefore confirm that, by reiterating his previous view that the Secretary of State should not have to bring the framework to Parliament, he disagrees with both the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and the Constitution Committee, both of which made the same point on this occasion and on the previous Bill—that Parliament should look at the trust framework?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

For the reasons that I have given, I think that the trust framework is a technical document and one best dealt with in this technical form. It is built on other assurance processes, with the United Kingdom Accreditation Service overseeing the conformity accreditation bodies that will test the digital verification services. In this case, our view is that it does not need to come under parliamentary scrutiny.

On Amendments 6 and 8 from the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I am absolutely behind the notion that the validity of the data is critical. We have to get this right. Of course, the Bill itself takes the data from other sources, and those sources have authority to get the information correct, but it is important, for a digital service in particular, that this is dealt with very carefully and that we have good assurance processes.

On the specific point about gender identity, the Bill does not create or prescribe new ways in which to determine that, but work is ongoing to try to ensure that there is consistency and accuracy. The Central Digital and Data Office has started to progress work on developing data standards and key entities and their attributes to ensure that the way data is organised, stored and shared is consistent between public authorities. Work has also been commenced via the domain expert group on the person entity, which has representations from the Home Office, HMRC, the Office for National Statistics—importantly—NHS England, the Department for Education, the Ministry of Justice, the Local Government Association and the Police Digital Service. The group has been established as a pilot under the Data Standards Authority to help to ensure consistency across organisations, and specific pieces of work are going on relating to gender in that area.

The measures in Part 2 are intended to help secure the reliability of the process through which citizens can verify their identity digitally. They do not intervene in how government departments record and store identity data. In clarifying this important distinction, and with reference to the further information I will set out, I cannot support the amendments.

[Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom (Con)]

I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm whether he accepts that, on some occasions, passports and drivers’ licences inaccurately reflect the sex of their holders.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I can be absolutely clear that we must have a single version of the truth on this. There needs to be a way to verify it consistently and there need to be rules. That is why the ongoing work is so important. I know from my background in scientific research that, to know what you are dealing with, data is the most important thing to get. Making sure that we have a system to get this clear will be part of what we are doing.

Amendment 6 would require the Secretary of State to assess which public authorities can reliably verify related facts about a person in the preparation of the trust framework. This exercise is out of scope of the trust framework, as the Good Practice Guide 45—a standard signposted in the trust framework—already provides guidance for assessing the reliability of authoritative information across a wide range of use cases covered by the trust framework. Furthermore, the public authorities mentioned are already subject to data protection legislation which requires personal data processed to be accurate and, where relevant, kept up to date.

Amendment 8 would require any information shared by public authorities to be clearly defined, accompanied by metadata and accurate. The Government already support and prioritise the accuracy of the data they store, and I indicated the ongoing work to make sure that this continues to be looked at and improved. This amendment could duplicate or potentially conflict with existing protections under data protection legislation and/or other legal obligations. I reassure noble Lords that the Government believe that ensuring the data they process is accurate is essential to deliver services that meet citizens’ needs and ensure accurate evaluation and research. The Central Digital and Data Office has already started work on developing data standards on key entities and their attributes to ensure that the way data is organised, stored and shared is consistent.

It is our belief that these matters are more appropriately considered together holistically, rather than by a piecemeal approach through diverse legislation such as this data Bill. As such, I would be grateful if noble Lords would consider withdrawing their amendments.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken on this. I actually rather liked the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones—if I am allowed to reach across to him—but I think he is wrong to describe Amendments 6 and 8 as “culture war”. They are very much about AI and the fundamentals of digital. Self-ID is an attractive thought; I would very much like to self-identify as a life Peer at the moment.

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17:25

Division 1

Ayes: 205

Noes: 159

Amendment 7

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17:40

Division 2

Ayes: 87

Noes: 157

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Moved by

[Lord Vallance of Balham]

10: Clause 56, page 52, line 13, leave out “undertaker’s” and insert “contractor’s”
Member’s explanatory statement
New section 106B(6) of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (defence where certain people have taken reasonable care) refers to “the undertaker’s employees” twice. This amendment corrects that by replacing one of those references with a reference to “the contractor’s employees”.

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[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendments 10 and 12 seek to amend Clauses 56 and 58, which form part of the national underground asset register provisions. These two minor, technical amendments address a duplicate reference to “the undertaker’s employees” and replace it with the correct reference to “the contractor’s employees”. I reassure noble Lords that the amendments do not have a material policy effect and are intended to correct the drafting. I beg to move.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for these two technical amendments. I take this opportunity to thank him also for responding to correspondence about LinesearchbeforeUdig and its wish to meet government and work with existing services to deliver what it describes as the safe digging elements of the NUAR. The Minister has confirmed that the heavy lifting on this—not heavy digging—will be carried out by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, on her return, which I am sure she will look forward to. As I understand it, officials will meet LinesearchbeforeUdig this week, and they will look at the survey carried out by the service. We have made some process since Committee, and I am grateful to the Minister for that.

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18:02

Division 3

Ayes: 186

Noes: 162

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Moved by

[Lord Vallance of Balham]

12: Clause 58, page 62, line 34, leave out “undertaker’s” and insert “contractor’s”
Member’s explanatory statement
New Article 45B(6) of the Street Works (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 (defence where certain people have taken reasonable care) refers to “the undertaker’s employees” twice. This amendment corrects that by replacing one of those references with a reference to “the contractor’s employees”.

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[Lord Markham (Con)]

Like the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I am not going to try to better the excellent speech made by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville.

We debated at much length in Committee the definition of the scientific interest, as it will dictate the breadth of the consent exemption for the data reused. If it is too broad, it could allow data companies—I am thinking specifically of AI programs—to justify data scraping without obtaining consent, should they successfully argue that it constitutes scientific research. However, should we create too narrow a definition, we could stifle commercial research and innovation. This would be disastrous for economic growth and the UK science and technology sector, which is one of our most dynamic sectors and has the potential to become one of the most profitable. We should be looking to support and grow, not hinder. Finding the happy medium here is no small feat, but the amendment tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, goes a long way towards achieving this by threading the needle.

By requiring the research to be in the public interest to qualify for the consent exemption for data reuse, we will prevent companies cloaking purely commercial activities for their own ends in the guise of scientific research, while allowing commercial research which will benefit the general public.

This particularly chimes with my time as Health Minister, when we tried to ensure that we could bring the public with us on the use of their health data. We did a lot of focus groups on all of this, and we found that we could have very widespread—70%-plus—public support if we could demonstrate that there really was a medical research benefit from all of this. This amendment is very much in keeping with that. As I say, it threads the needle. That is why we will be strongly supporting the amendment tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and we hope he is minded to put the matter to a Division.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, for his amendment and his engagement on this matter. I fully agree with the importance of ensuring that the term “scientific research” is not abused. Clause 67 will help avoid the misuse of the term by introducing a test of whether the research could reasonably be described as scientific. By explicitly requiring a reasonableness test, which is a well-known part of law, the provision is narrowing not broadening the current position.

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18:35

Division 4

Ayes: 258

Noes: 138

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[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I will speak first to government Amendment 40, tabled in my name, concerning the ICO’s duty relating to children’s personal data. Before that, though, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Russell, the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, and in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for such considered debates on this incredibly important issue, both in today’s discussion in the House and in the meetings we have had together. Everyone here wants this to be effective and recognises that we must protect children.

The Government are firmly committed to maintaining high standards of protection for children, which is why they decided not to proceed with measures in the previous Data Protection and Digital Information Bill that would have reduced requirements for data protection impact assessments, prior consultation with the ICO and the designation of data protection officers. The ICO guidance is clear that organisations must complete an impact assessment in relation to any processing activity that uses children’s or other vulnerable people’s data for marketing purposes, profiling or other automated decision-making, or for offering online services directly to children.

The Government also expect organisations which provide online services likely to be accessed by children to continue to follow the standards on age-appropriate design set out in the children’s code. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, worked tirelessly to include those provisions in the Data Protection Act 2018 and the code continues to provide essential guidance for relevant online services on how to comply with the data protection principles in respect of children’s data. In addition to these existing provisions, Clause 90 already includes a requirement for the ICO to consider the rights and interests of children when carrying out its functions.

I appreciate the point that the noble Baroness made in Committee about the omission of the first 10 words of recital 38 from these provisions. As such, I am very happy to rectify this through government Amendment 40. The changes we are making to Clause 90 will require the Information Commissioner to consider, where relevant, when carrying out its regulatory functions the fact that children merit special protection with regard to their personal data. I hope noble Lords will support this government amendment.

Turning to Amendment 15 from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, which excludes children’s data from Clause 68, I reassure her that neither the protections for adults nor for children are being lowered. Clause 68 faithfully transposes the existing concept of giving consent to processing for an area of scientific research from the current recital. This must be freely given and be fully revokable at any point. While the research purpose initially identified may become more specific as the research progresses, this clause does not permit researchers to use the data for research that lies outside the original consent. As has been highlighted by the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, excluding children from Clause 68 could have a detrimental effect on health research in children and could unfairly disadvantage them. This is already an area of research that is difficult and underrepresented.

I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, cares deeply about this but the fact is that if we start to make research in children more difficult—for example, if research on children with a particular type of cancer found something in those children that was relevant to another cancer, this would preclude the use of that data—that cannot be right for children. It is a risk to move and exempt children from this part of the Bill.

Amendment 16 would prevent data controllers from processing children’s data under the new recognised legitimate interests lawful ground. However, one of the main reasons this ground was introduced was to encourage organisations to process personal data speedily when there is a pressing need to do so for important purposes. This could be where there is a need to report a safeguarding concern or to prevent a crime being committed against a child. Excluding children’s data from the scope of the provision could therefore delay action being taken to protect some children—a point also made in the debate.

Amendment 20 aims to prohibit further processing of children’s personal data when it was collected under the consent lawful basis. The Government believe an individual’s consent should not be undermined, whether they are an adult or a child. This is why the Bill sets out that personal data should be used only for the purpose a person has consented to, apart from situations that are in the public interest and authorised by law or to comply with the UK GDPR principles. Safeguarding children or vulnerable individuals is one of these situations. There may be cases where a child’s data is processed under consent by a social media company and information provided by the child raises serious safeguarding concerns. The social media company must be able to further process the child’s data to make safeguarding referrals when necessary. It is also important to note that these public interest exceptions apply only when the controller cannot reasonably be expected to obtain consent.

I know the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, hoped that the Government might also introduce amendments to require data controllers to apply a higher standard of protection to children’s data than to adults’. The Government have considered Amendment 22 carefully, but requiring all data controllers to identify whether any of the personal data they hold relates to children, and to apply a higher standard to it, would place disproportionate burdens on small businesses and other organisations that currently have no way of differentiating age groups.

Although we cannot pursue this amendment as drafted, my understanding of the very helpful conversations that I have had with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is that she intended for this amendment to be aimed at online services directed at or likely to be accessed by children, not to every public body, business or third sector organisation that might process children’s data from time to time.

I reassure noble Lords that the Government are open to exploring a more targeted approach that focuses on those services that the noble Baroness is most concerned about. The age-appropriate design code already applies to such services and we are very open to exploring what further measures could be beneficial to strengthen protection for children’s data. This point was eloquently raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Harding and Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and is one that we would like to continue. Combined with the steps we are taking in relation to the new ICO duty, which will influence the support and guidance it provides for organisations, we believe this could drive better rates of compliance. I would be very pleased to work with all noble Lords who have spoken on this to try to get this into the right place.

I turn to Amendment 27, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I agree with her on the importance of protecting children’s rights and interests when undertaking solely automated decision-making. However, we think this amendment, as currently drafted, would cause operational confusion as to when solely automated decision-making can be carried out. Compliance with the reformed Article 22 and the wider data protection legislation will ensure high standards of protection for adults and children alike, and that is what we should pursue.

I now turn to Amendment 39, which would replace the ICO’s children’s duty, and for which I again thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Russell. As a public body, the ICO must adhere to the UK’s commitment to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and we respectfully submit that it is unnecessary to add further wording of this nature to the ICO’s duty. We believe that government Amendment 40, coupled with the ICO’s principal objective to secure an appropriate level of protection, takes account of the fact that the needs of children might not always look the same.

Finally, to address Amendment 45, the Government believe that the Bill already delivers on this aim. While the new annual regulatory action report in Clause 101 will not break down the activity that relates to children, it does cover all the ICO’s regulatory activity, including that taken to uphold the rights of children. This will deliver greater transparency and accountability on the ICO’s actions. Furthermore, Clause 90 requires the ICO to set out in its annual report how it has complied with its statutory duties. This includes the new duty relating to children.

To conclude, I hope that the amendment we tabled today and the responses I have set out reassure noble Lords of our commitment to protect children’s data. I ask noble Lords to support the amendment tabled in my name, and hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, feels content to withdraw her own.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

Before the Minister sits down, I have some things to say about his words. I did not hear: “agree to bring forward a government amendment at Third Reading”. Those are the magic words that would help us get out of this situation. I have tried to suggest several times that the Government bring forward their own amendment at Third Reading, drafted in a manner that would satisfy the whole House, with the words of the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, incorporated and the things that are fundamental.

I very much admire the Minister and enjoy seeing him in his place but I say to him that we have been round this a few times now and a lot of those amendments, while rather nerdy in their obsession, are based on lived experience of trying to hold the regulator and the companies to account for the law that we have already passed. I am seeking those magic words before the Minister sits down.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I have likewise enjoyed working with the noble Baroness. As has been said several times, we are all working towards the same thing, which is to protect children. The age-appropriate design code has been a success in that regard. That is why we are open to exploring what further measures can be put in place in relation to the ICO duty, which can help influence and support the guidance to get that into the right place. That is what I would be more than happy to work on with the noble Baroness and others to make sure that we get it right.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I am presuming a little here that the Minister’s lack of experience in the procedures of the House is holding him back, but I know he is getting some advice from his left. The key thing is that we will not be able to discuss this again in this House unless he agrees that he will bring forward an amendment. We do not have to specify today what that amendment will be. It might not be satisfactory, and we might have to vote against it anyway. But the key is that he has to say this now, and the clerk has to nod in agreement that he has covered the ground properly.

We have done this before on a number of other Bills, so we know the rules. If the Minister can do that, we can have the conversations he is talking about. We have just heard the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, explain in a very graceful way that this will be from a blank sheet of paper so that we can build something that will command the consensus of the House. We did it on the Online Safety Bill; we can do it here. Please will he say those words?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I am advised that I should say that I am happy for the amendment to be brought forward, but not as a government amendment. We are happy to hear an amendment from the noble Baroness at Third Reading.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

Let us be quite clear about this. It does not have to be a government amendment, but the Government Minister has to agree that it can be brought forward.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I have said that.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

He said yes.