Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I have also put my name to most of the amendments. As with the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, that some of them do not have my name on them is because I arrived too late. Between her and my noble friend Lady Kidron, they have said everything that needs to be said very powerfully. As one who has more recently become involved in a variety of Bills—the Policing and Crime Bill, the Online Safety Bill, and the Victims and Prisoners Bill—in every case trying to fight for and clarify children’s rights, I can say that it has been an uphill battle. But the reason we have been fighting for this is that we have lamentably failed to protect the interests of children for the past two decades as the world has changed around us. All of us who have children or grandchildren, nephews or nieces, or, like me, take part in the Learn with the Lords programme and go into schools, or who deal with mental health charities, are aware of the failure of government and regulators to take account, as the world changed around us, of the effect it would have on children.

In our attempts to codify and clarify in law what the dangers are and what needs to be put in place to try to prevent them, we have had an uphill struggle, regardless of the colour of government. In principle, everyone agrees. In practice, there is always a reason why it is too difficult—or, the easy way out is to say, “We will tell the regulator what our intent is, but we will leave it up to the regulator to decide”.

Our experience to date of the ability of a regulator entirely to take on board what was very clearly the will of Parliament when the Bill became an Act is not being made flesh when it comes to setting out the regulation. Unless it is in an Act and it is made manifestly clear what the desired outcomes are in terms of safety of children, the regulator—because it is difficult to do this well—will not unreasonably decide that if it is too difficult to do, they will settle for something that is not as good as it could be.

What we are trying to do with this set of amendments is to say to the Government up front, “We want this to be as effective as it possibly could be now”. We do not want to come back and rue the consequences of not being completely clear and of putting clear onus of responsibility on the regulators in two or three years’ time, because in another two or three years children will have important parts of their childhood deteriorating quite rapidly, with consequences that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I was one of those who was up even earlier than the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, and managed to get my name down on these amendments. It puts me in a rather difficult position to be part of the government party but to seek to change what the Government have arrived at as their sticking position in relation to this issue in particular—and indeed one or two others, but I have learned to live with those.

This one caught my eye in Committee. I felt suddenly, almost exactly as the noble Lord, Lord Russell said, a sense of discontinuity in relation to what we thought it was in the Government’s DNA—that is, to bring forward the right solution to the problems that we have been seeking to change in other Bills. With the then Online Safety Bill, we seemed to have an agreement around the House about what we wanted, but every time we put it back to the officials and people went away with it and came back with other versions, it got worse and not better. How children are dealt with and how important it is to make sure that they are prioritised appears to be one of those problems.

The amendments before us—and I have signed many of them, because I felt that we wanted to have a good and open debate about what we wanted here—do not need to be passed today. It seems to me that the two sides are, again, very close in what we want to achieve. I sensed from the excellent speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, that she has a very clear idea of what needs to go into this Bill to ensure that, at the very least, we do not diminish the sensible way in which we drafted the 2018 Bill. I was part of that process as well; I remember those debates very well. We got there because we hammered away at it until we found a way of finding the right words that bridged the two sides. We got closer and closer together, but sometimes we had to go even beyond what the clerks would feel comfortable with in terms of government procedure to do that. We may be here again.

When he comes to respond, can the Minister commit to us today in this House that he will bring back at Third Reading a version of what he has put forward—which I think we all would say does not quite go far enough; it needs a bit more, but not that much more—to make it meet with where we currently are and where, guided by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, we should be in relation to the changing circumstances in both the external world and indeed in our regulator, which of course is going to go through a huge change as it reformulates itself? We have an opportunity, but there is also a danger that we do not take it. If we weaken ourselves now, we will not be in the right position in a few years’ time. I appeal to my noble friend to think carefully about how he might manage this process for the best benefit of all of us. The House, I am sure, is united about where we want to get to. The Bill does not get us there. Government Amendment 18 is too modest in its approach, but it does not need a lot to get it there. I think there is a way forward that we do not need to divide on. I hope the Minister will take the advice that has been given.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, we have heard some of the really consistent advocates for children’s online protection today. I must say that I had not realised that the opportunity of signing the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, was rather like getting hold of Taylor Swift tickets—clearly, there was massive competition and rightly so. I pay tribute not only to the speakers today but in particular to the noble Baroness for all her campaigning, particularly with 5Rights, on online child protection.

All these amendments are important for protecting children’s data, because they address concerns about data misuse and the need for heightened protection for children in the digital environment, with enhanced oversight and accountability in the processing of children’s data. I shall not say very much. If the noble Baroness pushes Amendment 20 to a vote, I want to make sure that we have time before the dinner hour to do so, which means going through the next group very quickly. I very much hope that we will get a satisfactory answer from the Minister. The sage advice from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, hit the button exactly.

Amendment 20 is particularly important in this context. It seeks to exclude children from the new provisions on purpose limitation for further processing under Article 8A. As the noble Baroness explains, that means that personal data originally collected from a child with consent for a specific purpose could not be reused for a different, incompatible purpose without obtaining fresh consent, even if the child is now an adult. In my view, that is core. I hope the Minister will come back in the way that has been requested by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, so we do not have to have a vote. However, we will support the noble Baroness if she wishes to test the opinion of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I am presuming a little here that the Minister’s lack of experience in the procedures of the House is holding him back, but I know he is getting some advice from his left. The key thing is that we will not be able to discuss this again in this House unless he agrees that he will bring forward an amendment. We do not have to specify today what that amendment will be. It might not be satisfactory, and we might have to vote against it anyway. But the key is that he has to say this now, and the clerk has to nod in agreement that he has covered the ground properly.

We have done this before on a number of other Bills, so we know the rules. If the Minister can do that, we can have the conversations he is talking about. We have just heard the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, explain in a very graceful way that this will be from a blank sheet of paper so that we can build something that will command the consensus of the House. We did it on the Online Safety Bill; we can do it here. Please will he say those words?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I am advised that I should say that I am happy for the amendment to be brought forward, but not as a government amendment. We are happy to hear an amendment from the noble Baroness at Third Reading.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

Let us be quite clear about this. It does not have to be a government amendment, but the Government Minister has to agree that it can be brought forward.

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I have said that.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

He said yes.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

We take that as a yes.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

This is a self-governing House.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

I thank the Minister for that very generous offer. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his incredible support. I note that, coming from the Government Benches, that is a very difficult thing to do, and I really appreciate it. On the basis that we are to have an amendment at Third Reading, whether written by me with government and opposition help or by the Government, that will address these fundamental concerns set out by noble Lords, I will not press this amendment today.

These are not small matters. The implementation of the age-appropriate design code depends on some of the things being resolved in the Bill. There is no equality of arms here. A child, whether five or 15, is no match for the billions of dollars spent hijacking their attention, their self-esteem and their body. We have to, in these moments as a House, choose David over Goliath. I thank the Minister and all the supporters in this House —the “Lords tech team”, as we have been called in the press. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.