Cannabis

Baroness Brown of Silvertown Excerpts

Monday 12th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mrs Gillan. I start by thanking the Petitions Committee for scheduling this debate. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) for his measured and well-researched contribution. The e-petitions process is an invaluable addition to our democracy, as it ensures that we can directly respond to the interests of the British public. That can only be a good thing. The petition that sparked this debate was signed by 125,000 people in just four days. It is clear that there is a degree of public interest in the legal status of cannabis, and it is right that we carefully consider the issue. The debate’s quality has allowed us to do precisely that, although this is clearly not the end of the debate.

Since the late 1990s, cannabis use in Britain has significantly reduced, particularly among the young. According to Home Office statistics, nearly 30% of 16 to 24-year-olds had used cannabis in 1998. In 2014-15, it was a little over 16%, although the percentage had slightly increased over the previous two years from 13%. We are still on a positive trend, although it would be invaluable to understand what has driven the increase in the past two years. I wonder whether that is related to the cuts we have seen to youth services. It is also important to note that there has been an increase in synthetic cannabinoids.

As has been discussed, Portugal and other countries have chosen to decriminalise cannabis and other drugs. I know some would like to see us go down the same route in Britain. When considering lessons from Portugal, we should be clear that its drug policy is far from permissive. It removes criminal penalties for simple possession of small amounts, rather than having the wholesale decriminalisation of possession, supply and production offences. Those caught with drugs are summoned before a tribunal or dissuasion commission, which includes a psychiatrist and a social worker, who often mandate rehabilitation services or issue financial penalties. There is still a concerted effort by law enforcement, working in conjunction with the health service, to reduce drug use and in particular to control production and supply.

I am aware that Björn Hibell’s study of European drug trends shows that cannabis use is reducing among the Portuguese young. However, we must recognise that cannabis use is decreasing even faster among British youths, although from a higher base, and that there has been an increase in the use of cannabis and other decriminalised drugs among older groups in Portugal.

I understand that one reason why many may have signed the petition is that too many people, young and old, feel that they have had their lives blighted by a conviction for the possession of cannabis. A conviction may well prevent someone from getting a job while it is still on their record, and some professions—in law, accountancy and medicine—even require the disclosure of spent convictions. Our police have discretion over how to enforce the law against possession. In some areas, such as Durham, that means a force-wide policy of not charging people for possession, or even for growing their own plants. In other areas, individual police officers are allowed to make their own judgment, which includes charging people with a first offence and the possibility of a custodial sentence. We have de facto decriminalisation in some parts of the country and enforcement in others. This is an extraordinary postcode lottery. Given that a drug conviction has such a serious impact on a person’s life, this postcode lottery is simply unacceptable.

We should also recognise racial disparities. Black people, on average, use drugs less than white people, but are six times more likely to be stopped and searched for drugs. This inequity needs to stop, so I say gently to the Minister that what we lack at the moment is Government direction and leadership. If the debate does nothing more, I hope that it will flag up to the Minister that he might have some work to do to ensure the equity of law across the country and for all citizens.

My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West has consistently campaigned for the use of cannabis to be legalised for medicinal purposes, and he has made that case again today with characteristic eloquence and sincerity. I have enormous sympathy for anyone who seeks the most effective way to access pain relief. I do not doubt the reports made by those with multiple sclerosis and other illnesses that drugs can bring pain relief and improve muscle control. However, I do not believe that we need to legalise cannabis to have access to its medical benefits.

THC, the active ingredient in cannabis, is used as an ingredient in the drug Sativex, which we heard about earlier. It is already licensed in the UK—in Wales—to relieve the symptoms of MS and other medical conditions. We can and do benefit from THC without legalising forms of cannabis that are used recreationally. I understand that this is something that the Government’s drug advisers, the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, support.

I am also aware that Sativex is not available on the NHS in England owing to the cost of the drug. Although that is ultimately a decision for NICE—I accept that—I ask that Ministers look at this again. Sativex is, after all, available on prescription in Wales, as I have said, and MS sufferers in England should not face greater pain and difficulty simply because they live on the wrong side of a border. Despite the medical benefits of THC, which can be accessed through Sativex, there remains real public concern about the negative impact that recreational cannabis has on health. I share many of those concerns. My main worry about the drug is its impact on mental health, as eloquently outlined by the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter). We know that regular users are more likely to develop psychotic illnesses, including schizophrenia. There is also a link between cannabis use and developing depression or anxiety, particularly among those who started smoking cannabis as adolescents.

Britain has some of the highest rates of mental illness in the world. The Mental Health Foundation and Mind tell us that one in four Britons suffers from a mental health problem over the course of each year. According to the Office for National Statistics, 15% of us will seriously contemplate suicide at some point in our lifetime. Given these mental health concerns, I think it would be irresponsible to support measures that may make the drug more readily available—something likely to occur if we legalise the drug.

As I understand it, Holland abandoned its model of completely ignoring personal possession due to the impact of the drug on mental health conditions. This is worrisome, especially given the potency of cannabis on our streets. According to the Home Office’s most recent potency study, intensively grown cannabis, which is the most common form of the drug in the UK, has on average a 15% THC concentration. Traditional cannabis, if there is such a thing, has just 9%. Strong strands of cannabis have all the more impact on minds. We also have the growing problem of synthetic cannabinoids.

In conclusion, I ask appropriate Ministers to look again at Sativex and the use of cannabis for those with particular physical conditions that can be alleviated by the drug. I believe the Minister should look at the postcode lottery of criminalisation due to cannabis possession and use, but I am not persuaded of the case for the legalisation of cannabis. In this place, we should always have mind to the impact of our actions on public health. Legalisation will not improve this. Legalisation has the potential to exacerbate the problems that we have with drug dependency and mental illness.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (in the Chair)]

Before I call the Minister, it may be helpful to tell you that I intend to call Mr Flynn, the proposer, at the end. He has indicated that he would like to speak.

Assisted Dying (No. 2) Bill

Baroness Brown of Silvertown Excerpts

Friday 11th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

I am afraid that I cannot support this Bill. My concern is that we will fundamentally change the way that our society thinks about and deals with the terminally ill, severely disabled people and the vulnerable, troubled and elderly.

My mum died suddenly and unexpectedly, riddled by cancer, but I know that my mum, faced with a terminal prognosis in a world where there was the possibility of state-assisted suicide, acceptable and accepted by society, would have tormented herself during her last months with the question of when she should ask for that button to be pressed. She would have worried about the stresses that my sister and I would have endured, she would have worried about the weight of her care being shouldered by the nurses and the doctors, and she would have been anxious that folk would think that she was consuming too many resources, selfishly staying alive, costing money, when she could and should just die.

My mum was not vulnerable. She was not alone or a depressive. She was dearly loved; and yet I know that the mere existence of legal and assisted suicide would have placed an enormous burden on her. But what of those without a loving family? What of those elderly people—let us face it, they do exist—with families more interested in the cost of care, and its impact on their dwindling inheritance, than the priceless gift of life? Would not some of my more vulnerable constituents think that they ought to take a course of action because it is available and despite the safeguards in the Bill, which I acknowledge have been carefully crafted? Can we be absolutely sure that they would not be pressured into it?

It is naive to believe that we can prevent an elderly, expensive or asset-rich relative being encouraged, coerced or emotionally blackmailed into taking their own life. And if just one person makes that decision to end their life as a result of such pressure, that would be a tragedy.

The Bill seeks to provide the right to assistance in dying only to those who are terminally ill. I believe supporters of the Bill have real integrity and do not intend its scope to be extended further. But if the Bill is passed, I believe that its scope will be extended, partly by case law, to apply to more people. Holland introduced assisted dying for the terminally ill in 2002. Initially, hardly any patients with psychiatric illnesses or dementia sought suicide. Now, just 13 years later, assisted suicide is sought and granted to elderly, lonely or bereaved people. Pressure for doctors to accede to requests comes from patients and relatives, as I believe it will here.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

The hon. Lady is talking about the consequences of giving the Bill a Second Reading. Will she address for a second, though, the consequences of not giving the Bill a Second Reading? Assisted suicide will be available; it will simply be available to those who have the means and the determination to go elsewhere. What does she think should happen for these people, and for those who are currently protected from prosecution by the DPP’s guidelines?

[Lyn Brown]

I am against this Bill because I worry that the mere existence of the process of assisted dying will make the vulnerable more vulnerable. It will change fundamentally the relationship between a patient and a doctor, and I oppose it most strenuously, because I think it will fundamentally, slowly but inexorably, change our society’s attitude to death and the dying, with a creeping invidious expectation that our elderly, infirm or disabled should take themselves out of the igloo of old, and die a dignified death, leaving the young, fit and able unencumbered by their burdensome, difficult, messy, expensive, pain-filled and challenging lives.

Life is precious. But the virtues in a society that set it apart as wholesome, decent and ethical are those which nurture and value that life. They are the qualities of tolerance, understanding, forbearance and, dare I say it, love, which are such precious commodities. They engender and sustain compassion and ensure a growing humanity, a more civilised society for the living, that shields and truly values life.

Police

Baroness Brown of Silvertown Excerpts

Wednesday 12th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green]

Obviously there are a number of such proposals, and the most sensible thing I can say at this point is that the Government will soon publish their response to the Knight review on fire services. That will, I hope, put all this in perspective.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

I am fascinated to hear the Minister mention the Knight review because we thought it had been quietly shelved. Given that it has taken months and that the Minister seems to know more about it than we do, will he enlighten the House on when the Government might consider thinking about publishing their response to the Knight review?

[Damian Green]

I assure the hon. Lady that the response will be published shortly and I hope that that satisfies her.

Our vision is for policing to be digital by 2016 because technology has the potential to transform policing the way it has transformed many other areas of life. Hampshire police already use mobile data on a variety of devices to give officers a full digital experience through their work, and it found that it could demonstrate a 26% reduction in the time spent by officers in stations, and a 20% reduction in mileage covered by patrol vehicles. Again, we are using the police innovation fund to support mobile working and invest in mobile devices, data storage and transmission. Indeed, we found that digital working can increase efficiency, even in forces that are not geographically next to each other. For example, Northamptonshire and Cheshire have united to create a joint shared service, providing 24-hour human resources advice, uniform ordering, and admin functions. I am delighted that 32 forces have now agreed to become digital pathfinders, because the thought that we can transform policing through the use of technology is spreading throughout the police service.

At a time when public spending has been under severe pressure, this adds up to the most significant reform of the police in a generation. It has already led to more effective and efficient policing, which delivers value for money for the taxpayer and ensures that significant falls in overall crime continue year on year.

Of course the challenge does not end there. We need to make further cuts to public spending and the police must play their part, despite the protections that we have been able to provide. Importantly, we are taking a long-term view on police funding. Last year, we announced that the Government would undertake a fundamental review of the formula used to allocate funding between police force areas. That complex process will take time, but the first phase of the work—an internal analytical review—is already under way, and we will consult a full range of partners, both inside the police and the PCCs, at the appropriate point as the work develops.

I recognise that the funding settlement will create further challenges for PCCs and forces, but it will also bring opportunities, particularly for those prepared to innovate, collaborate and transform, drive efficiencies and deliver even better policing across England and Wales. I commend the motion to the House.

Legal Aid Reform

Baroness Brown of Silvertown Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

Rightly, a lot of attention has been given to the changes to legal aid for criminal law and the removal of choice of solicitor, and those are serious matters, but I will focus on the cuts to legal aid for judicial review. I do not speak as a legal expert—I am not a solicitor or a barrister—but I will illustrate how judicial review has worked in the past and how the proposed changes will militate against good outcomes.

A 12-year-old boy was excluded from school and his local authority placed him in the pupil referral unit. After a couple of days he stopped going, because the PRU was in an area where a different gang was based and he was scared. For two years, the boy received no education: the local authority occasionally organised meetings with the family and occasionally threatened to take his mother to court. Understandably, she wanted her son to be educated, but she understood his fears.

A local charity recommended a solicitor, who made repeated attempts to resolve the problem with the local authority. They were ignored. Eventually, the mother issued judicial review proceedings. They were ignored. An order was made for the matter to be expedited, with a date for the authority to set out what it steps it was taking to provide the boy with an education. That order finally galvanised the authority into action to avoid judicial review. A package was worked out, with good will, between the council, the PRU and the local college—a right and welcome outcome. Under the Government’s proposals, the case would not have received legal aid, as it was settled before the permission stage.

There are other cases that illustrate my worries about the future, such as the woman receiving treatment for cancer who was evicted because the landlord wanted to sell the property unoccupied. She would no longer be able to challenge the council’s decision not to provide her with emergency accommodation. A 16-year-old girl fleeing the physical abuse of her alcoholic mother and stepfather was living on the streets until the threat of judicial review convinced the council to find her accommodation. Shelter, which represented the girl, would not have been paid for the case because the local authority acted after it was threatened but before the case got to court.

What do those case studies tell us? They tell us that under the new regime, lawyers are unlikely to take on a case where there is a likelihood that it will be settled before permission stage, as they will not be paid. Perversely, the strongest cases will not be funded and taken up. People on low incomes will have much less chance of getting access to judicial review and to justice. We are told that cases such as the ones I have described are less likely to have a good outcome. The young man whose case I described is now enjoying learning and, hopefully, he will grow up to have a decent job and contribute positively to society. Imagine what might have happened if that intervention had not occurred early enough.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that when changes are so far reaching, there really ought to be some sort of pilot scheme and evaluation before anyone takes any steps any further to try to implement any changes of this nature?

[Lyn Brown]

I absolutely agree. In the examples I gave, if the outcomes that were, in effect, negotiated before the cases got to court had not been achieved, the costs of the alternatives in terms of alienation, unemployment, ill-health, petty crime and worse, replicated across the country, would far outweigh the £1 million that I understand the change is designed to save. How much more would it cost us to keep that young man in the criminal justice system and to replicate that across the country?

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Lyn Brown]

No, I will not.

Even if we were to save £1 million, would that be worth the cost of losing the ability to change the lives of people like those in my examples? People must be able to hold power to account, and I fear that the proposals are a serious attack on the right of the most vulnerable in our society to do just that.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Metropolitan Police Service

Baroness Brown of Silvertown Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am grateful to Mr Speaker for allowing this debate. It is right to begin by saying that we in the House owe a continuing debt of gratitude to the men and women of the Metropolitan police. They are, in general, superb public servants, doing a very difficult and very important job extremely well.

The Met was rightly praised for its work during the Olympics and the diamond jubilee last year, but its less high-profile work—the bread and butter of policing work, through its contribution to keeping our communities safe, pursuing criminals and supporting victims—remains fundamental, and the overwhelming majority of its officers do that with considerable skill and dedication.

Nevertheless, the future of policing in London is under scrutiny, and with good reason. Under the stewardship of the Mayor of London and the Conservative party, the Metropolitan police have already seen a drop of more than 4,000 uniformed police—police constables and police community support officers—on London’s streets since the general election, a period in which all Members will acknowledge that there were major riots and growing concern about gang violence. To take just one borough—my own borough of Harrow—we lost 100 PCs and PCSOs, a cut in front-line uniformed police officers of 19%, which is one of the biggest cuts. A cut of almost 20% in the Government’s grant to the Metropolitan police, which was supported by the Mayor and Conservative Members, is the driving factor behind the cuts to police funding that are now being debated across London.

Using a choice of statistics that the characters in “The Thick of It” would have been proud of, the Mayor’s plan promises more police recruitment. However, the truth is that there will be fewer police officers and fewer PCSOs by 2015, and that police officers are likely to be significantly less experienced than now. That drop in police numbers is noteworthy of itself, but comparing the number and percentage of crimes solved reveals that the Metropolitan police saw in 2011-12 a sharp drop in the number, and crucially in the percentage, of crimes being solved. In 2011-12, 22,600 fewer crimes were solved in London than in 2009-10, and the percentage of crimes solved dropped to 21.6%.

Those figures are perhaps not surprising when cuts to the number of prosecutors available to the Crown Prosecution Service in London are taken into account. It would be interesting to hear the Minister and the Mayor of London explain how they think that the number and percentage of crimes solved are likely to rise with fewer police and even fewer prosecutors.

According to the figures that the Mayor of London has published, two thirds of London boroughs will still have fewer police officers by the end of 2015 than they had at the time of the last general election. Estimates for the number of PCSOs per borough have not been published, but with further substantial cuts to PCSO recruitment—some 1,100 will be cut by 2015-16, according to the Greater London assembly’s police and crime committee—it looks as though every borough will have significantly fewer uniformed police officers in total patrolling their streets by 2015 than they did in 2010.

Some people think that PCSOs are an expensive waste of time. I am not one of them, certainly not after I saw the difference that two PCSOs made to stopping trouble outside the gates of one of my major secondary schools. The head teacher said that he and members of his senior team went from being called out to deal with an incident at school closing time four afternoons out of every five to just twice in three months, after PCSOs were stationed outside those gates for the 30 minutes from the end of lessons. So PCSOs do a vital job, offering a direct reassuring presence to the public, helping to build the confidence that is necessary to gain intelligence, and—crucially—supporting the victims of crime.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

I echo what my hon. Friend is saying about PCSOs. In Newham, PCSOs have certainly been valuable when incidents have occurred that could possibly have heightened community tensions, particularly around the time of the riots and shortly afterwards. Being without PCSOs would be a real problem for us.

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point based on her own constituency experience. I suspect that, as I do, she feels that the cut in the number of PCSOs is noticed in her borough, as it certainly is in mine, and I suspect that it is also felt more widely across London.

By comparison with 2010, when Members last faced the people to ask for their support, there will be considerably fewer sergeants in London by 2015. Some estimates suggest that 1,300 sergeants will be axed. Inspectors and chief inspectors are also going, and superintendents’ numbers are likewise being cut. In short, the positions occupied by experienced police officers are being axed. The Mayor’s plan describes those positions as “supervisory grades”. In truth, those roles, and crucially the experience and skill mix of the senior staff occupying them, are fundamental to the effective pursuit of the criminal, the passage of the accused through the legal process and the sensitive support of the victim.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

Thank you for allowing me to speak, Mr Streeter. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) for securing this timely debate. We all know that for London to remain one of the best cities in the world it must also be one of the safest. London has been well served in that respect.

The Metropolitan police, although no stranger to controversies or mistakes—my hon. Friend has mentioned some high-profile concerns—is one of the best police services in the world, considering the challenges that it faces. Given the sheer expanse of the city and the ever-present concern about terrorism, the need to forge links across all communities is an important hurdle that the Met overcomes. We would all want to give great thanks to the men and women who serve in our areas.

That is all testament to the previous Labour Mayor, who invested in our police service and in policing technology; it is a testament to the previous Labour Government, who revolutionised neighbourhood policing. The resulting model for the Met that the previous Mayor and Government bequeathed to their current Tory masters was defined by three principles. The first principle was strength in numbers. The number of officers available to the Metropolitan police broke the 33,000 barrier, complemented by 4,000 police community support officers and 4,000 special constables.

The second principle is a relentless focus on the local and the very local. Community relations were forged on the ground, not just over the airwaves. New sergeants and their teams were embedded in neighbourhoods and communities, ensuring that they knew not only the faces of people serving the community, but their first names and addresses.

The third principle was an inescapable presence. The Metropolitan police had a permanent and visible presence in every neighbourhood in the capital. Whether it was an expensive or expansive police station or a local shop front, Londoners knew where to find their police on the high street, and residents and businesses felt safer for that.

As my hon. Friend has outlined so well, that model is now under threat. Those pillars are slowly being kicked away by the swingeing axe that this Government and their Mayor have taken to budgets. Where they have not entirely demolished community faith in policing—I shall come to concerns in Tottenham shortly—they have found a deputy Mayor who has not been present at all in the communities that he is supposed to be serving.

We have already lost 1,500 police officers and 2,000 PCSOs since the spending review. The safer neighbourhoods teams have been decimated, and a quarter of sergeants have been cut. Just last month, we found out that the Mayor has ordered the effective withdrawal of the police from our high streets. Sixty-five police stations are proposed to be closed, and the hours of more than 30 others are being downgraded. Of particular concern to me and my constituents is the fate of Tottenham police stations.

[Lyn Brown]

I am sorry to interrupt my right hon. Friend’s flow about Tottenham, but may I tell him that Newham faces the same problem? Almost half of our police stations are going, and so is the police station in Stratford, which, as hon. Members may recognise, is a place of major growth and regeneration. How can someone possibly think that that is a reasonable police station to close?

[Mr Lammy]

My hon. Friend makes her point well. She will appreciate that constituents such as ours in Newham and Tottenham fear the closure of police stations and the hours that police stations might now be open. Concerns in complex, multicultural areas must command the Mayor’s attention, and a present deputy Mayor is needed to answer them urgently.

Oral Answers to Questions

Baroness Brown of Silvertown Excerpts

Thursday 10th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

I wonder whether the Minister has had time to reflect on passing the responsibilities for library development to the Arts Council and whether he now regrets not using the money instead to create a perfectly formed, small library development agency.

[Mr Vaizey]

In times of economic austerity one has to be careful with public funds, but in any event I think it is long overdue for the Arts Council to have responsibility for libraries, in order to join up responsibility for local libraries with local culture.

Church of England (Women Bishops)

Baroness Brown of Silvertown Excerpts

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) for leading the debate so well and to the Backbench Business Committee for choosing it.

I will declare my interests. I was baptised into the Church of England and confirmed into the Church in Wales—the latter makes me much more comfortable, because I support disestablishment. I am chair of a Church primary school, nominated by my diocese, Southwark, a trustee of a Church secondary school in my constituency and a member of the Ecclesiastical Committee in Parliament.

Like everybody who spoke immediately after the Synod’s decision, I despaired at the folly of the Church of England in making a huge public mistake. After so long, everybody was clear about the view of the Church as a whole. We have heard that 42 of the 44 dioceses are in favour of women bishops, and we have heard the view of the leadership, including Archbishop Rowan Williams, who did everything he could to ensure that the change was delivered during his time as Archbishop, for which we thank him.

I come from the evangelical tradition, and many evangelicals support the ordination of women as both priests and bishops. The situation is not one category in favour and another against. In the church to which I belong, St James in Bermondsey, which would be classed as an evangelical church, I do not think there is a single person who does not support the ordination of women as bishops.

Evangelicals look back to the scriptures, as does everybody else who gets involved in this argument. Although I understand why people have come to the view that they cannot accept that there can be women priests or bishops, that has very little biblical foundation. Nothing in my New Testament says that Christ set up a structure by saying, “You will have churches, and you will have deacons, priests and bishops, and they will all be men.” I may have missed something, but I have read the whole New Testament at one stage or another and there is nothing that says that. Although a tradition of having men has built up, some of the early leaders of the Church right from the beginning, when Christ was executed and rose again, were women. Indeed, in the early days some Churches had women bishops, for heaven’s sake. I do not understand why we are having to revisit this issue after so long.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

I find myself agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman. It has always surprised me that women seemed to have a good, established position in the early Church, right up until it was legalised and then became the state religion of Rome. That leads me to feel that we should overturn the centuries of discrimination against women in the Church, possibly by disestablishing it. Maybe, once it is disestablished, it will be able to see a proper route to incorporating women as a proper and fundamental part of the Christian family.

[Simon Hughes]

The hon. Lady and I are on the same wavelength on that. I understand the arguments for establishment, but I believe that a radical Church should not be part of the establishment. We should be outside the establishment campaigning for Christian values, but we have ended up being in the establishment by accident. That is a debate for another time, and we will not resolve it today.

One paradox is that the established Church of England has decided not to have women bishops when the head of the Church of England, the supreme governor, is a woman. The whole thing is inconsistent. There is another anomaly in the argument that, because of the relatively recent history of the Church, only men can be priests, and that people want to be under the pastoral responsibility of a male bishop. The Church has provided that option in relation to priests, and it works. Now it has come up with a similar proposal for those who want a male bishop. It seems to me that if the first worked, the second is likely to work. I ask people to be generous and less suspicious and untrusting. It is understood that some people have a different view, and everybody has tried hugely hard to accommodate it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Cox]

I will come to my hon. Friend’s question. He cannot complain, and he certainly, in a genial and bluff manner, should not, as the Second Church Estates Commissioner, kick the Church into adopting a view that he represents when, in fact, the constitutional majority was not reached. That is the rule by which the Church agreed that the decision should be made. To begin to bully the Church into taking action to follow his convictions is wrong and unrepresentative of the Church as a whole.

To come to my hon. Friend’s question, first, the code that is supposed to exist was never written. How on earth can we vote something through, expecting protective measures to be written in future? Why did the Church not create the code, in draft at least, so that members such as me would be able to read it? It was not written. Secondly, there is an existing protection for Church councils to be consulted, including councils that have taken the view that they ought to be excluded from the jurisdiction in which women priests celebrate the Eucharist. The priest must consult the Church council before an invitation is extended to a woman to celebrate the Eucharist. That protection is to be removed under the current provision. How can we expect those on the other side, already feeling bruised as a minority and feeling that the Church does not necessarily want them—that may be the case, but it is certainly not the publicly professed view of the Church—to have confidence in Measures that are not written and which remove existing protections?

My hon. Friend asked for another example. As I understand it, if a Church council writes a letter of request asking to be excluded from the dominion of a particular bishop, a priest is able to veto that request. That does not give confidence to those parishes where a majority feel that they do not wish to be ministered to by a woman bishop. It cannot give confidence that they will be able to live according to their consciences.

I have given my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury three examples, and I hope that he will deal with them. First, the code was never written, so one is asked to accept a series of protective measures that have not even been given proper detail. Secondly, an existing protection is removed—these are only examples—and thirdly, the priest in charge can veto the Church council’s view on the dominion of the female bishop.

I say again that I have no wish to engage in expressing divisive or entrenched views. I accept that women bishops will come. As for my doubts on this score, perhaps I will find that I am wrong when I see the good that they do and the astonishing devotion of some that I know. I hope that I am wrong. I am willing to be wrong, and willing to accept that I am. I profoundly hope that others of my persuasion will come round to the idea, and that the Church’s unity can be maintained. I simply ask my hon. Friend for some patience. I know that he and others have been patient for a long time.

[Lyn Brown]

For 1,700 years.

[Mr Cox]

Yes, I know, but we are talking about a minority. The change will come; I ask only for a little further patience, so that we can get the settlement right, and so that those thousands of people who are, as I am, in a state of uncertainty and doubt, can be brought along.

I ask hon. Members to contemplate what it must mean for a member of the Church, who is brought up to it, celebrates it daily, and loves it as so many thousands of us do, to feel that the Church is leaving us behind, and moving away from us. I know that there are hon. Members who disagree and do not feel like that, but others do. Imagine how it must feel. We are wrestling to come to the conviction that other Members have reached. [Interruption.] I can only say to the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), who is commenting from a sedentary position, that I feel that I have already exposed far too much of my personal convictions, and have probably trespassed on her patience, but I did so because I believed, having listened to the debate, that this particular voice and body of opinion has not been represented in the House. I realised when I stood that what I said would not be popular, and would attract mirth, perhaps mockery; that some might be impatient with it; and that those on the other side of the debate have waited a long time.

I only ask that Members see the other point of view, and that the Church be allowed to reach this decision in its own time. I agree with the right hon. Member for Exeter that sincerity is necessary on both sides, and that the majority have come a long way in order to satisfy the concerns of the minority, but I ask for an extra effort. I ask for compassion. I ask for Christian patience.

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

I begin by congratulating my right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) on securing the agreement of the Backbench Business Committee to holding this exceptionally important debate.

I thought it would be appropriate to wear purple in this debate. I joined the Movement for the Ordination of Women 30 years ago and I found November’s Synod decision worse than disappointing. It is totally disgraceful that the whole of my adult life has seen this endless struggle over the position of women in the Church of England. I feel deeply sorry for women clergy up and down the country. In my own constituency I think of Jane Grieve, Brenda Jones, Linda Gough—fabulous women doing fabulous work. Even if they are not called to be bishops, the decision is demeaning and demoralising. Furthermore, as other hon. Members have said, women play a huge role in most parishes among the laity. I am sure women are the majority of the laity in the Church of England.

However, my greatest concern is for the mission of the Church. This country faces many challenges where the Church’s unique voice needs to be heard—how to bind fractured communities, how to address alienation and the inexorable rise of consumerism, and how to protect the natural environment. Who will listen to a Church when it behaves as Synod behaved last month? How much more time and energy must we spend on this question?

We have all heard from many members of the public and members of the Church in recent weeks. Some of those who are opposed seem to believe that Members of Parliament are, by and large, in favour of consecrating women bishops because they see it as a justice issue, rather than a theological issue. Of course, some of the people who are opposed to women bishops think this will give the Church a new lease of life, and that is the last thing they want, but that is not, by and large, the view that we have heard.

On the concerns about theological issues, the views were very well represented by the hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox). In the light of what he said, it is clear that we need to go right back to the beginning of the argument. Genesis 1 verse 27 says:

“So God created humankind in his image,

in the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them”,

and the passage goes on to say:

“Be fruitful and multiply”.

The notes in my Bible, which is the New Revised Standard Version—an ecumenical Bible recognised for use by the Protestants, the Catholics and the eastern Orthodox—say:

“Together men and women share the task of being God’s stewards on earth.”

I would like to remind the hon. and learned Gentleman how the passage ends:

“God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good.”

Now let me whizz forward 3,000 years to the New Testament. I take my understanding from the much maligned and misunderstood St Paul, who wrote in one of his letters to the Corinthians that in Christ there is neither male nor female but all are one in the spirit.

Since when, I ask those who are opposed to the consecration of women as bishops, has justice not been a theological issue? The justice tradition is the glory of the Old Testament, and in the New Testament we see it radically re-envisioned. Let us take, for example, the beatitudes, the roles given to the three Marys, the Magnificat—

“he hath regarded the lowliness of his handmaiden . . . scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts . . . exalted the humble and meek.”

[Lyn Brown]

I do not know whether my hon. Friend is going to get to John, chapter 4, in which Jesus reveals himself for the first time to the Samaritan woman. It is not to a man, or to one of the 12 nominated disciples, but to someone who was possibly the lowest of the low, a Samaritan and a woman to boot. For me, that speaks volumes about the equality of the New Testament message.

[Helen Goodman]

My hon. Friend gives another excellent example from the New Testament.

The legislation in Synod foundered on the adequacy or otherwise of the guarantees offered to those opposed to change. I cannot accept their self-description as a vulnerable and oppressed minority. In modern Britain, people have a choice about whether to stay or go. They do not face being burnt at the stake. If they are excluded, it is self-exclusion. There has been so much fence-sitting in the Church to keep a minority on board that the fence is now collapsing under the weight.

I also know that many people believe that it is extremely important to maintain the historic coalition of the Elizabethan settlement. I remind the House what Richard Hooker, one of the great theologians of that era, did and said. His argument was essentially that it was not about keeping everyone happy in the short term, but about having a coherent polity and coherent Church governance. That seems to me to be absolutely relevant to the position we find ourselves in today. All these exceptions, constraints, conditions and flying bishops are making the situation excessively complex. It would be impossible to know where authority lies in the Church or to give a clear picture of our theological view of the role of men and the role of women.

Hooker also said—I think it is relevant—that because things were ordained by God does not necessarily mean that they were ordained for all time. He felt that we should use our God-given reason to tell which points of scripture had what kind of authority. When the old way, which might have been right in its own time, might be wrong now, he said there was “some new-grown occasion”. I believe that we are now in a new-grown occasion. Of course growth can be painful—we all know that from personal experience—but it is also essential.

By far the best outcome would be for the Church itself to resolve the issue quickly. I know that Bishop Justin wants to address it straightaway, and I endorse everything my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) said about his capacities. It is right that the Church should resolve the issue itself, but if it cannot, that will inevitably raise profound questions about the established Church’s relationship with the state. I will put it simply. What do we want? Women bishops. When do we want them? Now.

Family Justice (Transparency, Accountability and Cost of Living) Bill

Baroness Brown of Silvertown Excerpts

Friday 26th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dr Lee]

Yes, that warrants consideration and has merit. I shall relate two instances that I recall. One was when I saw a 10-year-old child who presented having been self-harming—let us think about the idea of a 10-year-old child constantly using a razor blade on his wrist—and the other was when I examined an eight-year-old child, as I recall, and had to keep noting down evidence of cigarette burns. Both children had been in the care of their biological parents, I recall. It is all very well looking at evidence in the literature, but when one actually meets the child—when one looks at the child’s face and into their eyes—and encounters such evidence first hand, it is a genuinely heart-rending and extremely difficult thing to deal with. Indeed, I had some difficulty containing my anger at some points.

Moving on, as I said, I want to talk about parts 1 and 3 of the Bill. I particularly want to discuss grandparents’ access to their grandchildren. I am sure that the House will be surprised to learn that I had a spare hour at the weekend, and that I chose to spend it watching an episode of “The Waltons”, the famous 1970s television series. Those who have had the pleasure of watching it will recall that the Walton family all lived under the same roof. The grandparents, the parents and the seven children all lived in the same home. Part of the programme’s charm comes from the sense that the family is taking care of the vulnerable—the very young and the very old.

I was listening to the “Today” programme this morning. It has been running a series of short reports on social care in different countries, and today’s contribution was from the United States of America. I was struck by a suggestion that there could be a return to a Waltons model, with grandparents living under the same roof as their children and grandchildren. I suspect that that will also happen in this country. Putting aside the debate over the need to be able to afford a big enough house to accommodate such an arrangement, I believe that that is the likely direction of travel, given the ageing of our society. That demographic and sociological change could lead to an increase in contact between grandchildren and their grandparents.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman see, as I do, any irony in his talking about the Waltons’ rather large family living in rather desperate circumstances, working hard and doing their best, given the current proposals to cut benefits for families that have more than two children? What effect would that have on the impact on children that the Bill is trying to mitigate?

[Dr Lee]

I might be wrong, but I was not aware that any of the Walton family was receiving benefits. Indeed, I recall an episode in which Grandma was railing at an individual for coming into the village and suggesting that the state should take responsibility for the family. Grandma’s point was the family had that responsibility, not the state. I would encourage anyone who shares Grandma’s view of the world, because it is a more sustainable model for the future.

Returning to the Bill, I understand that grandparents do not at present have an automatic right to have contact with their grandchildren. The Library note informs me that they may apply to a court for leave to apply for a contact order, unless an exception to the requirement to obtain leave applies. Clause 2(4) of the Bill states:

“Grandparents shall be permitted to have reasonable direct and indirect contact with their grandchildren if the child so wishes without this contact being supervised unless it is not in the interest of the welfare of the child.”

That proposal has merit, and I support it. Grandparents up and down the country are experiencing difficulty in gaining access to their grandchildren—following the divorce of the grandchildren’s parents, for example—and that situation needs to be looked at. Grandparents have an important role to play in the upbringing of children—I believe that “The Waltons” provides evidence of that—and, in the increasingly atomised world in which we live, it is important that they should have that contact. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley is to be supported in progressing that proposal.

I also want to mention Criminal Records Bureau checks, another bête noire of mine. CRB checks are an example of the knee-jerk reactions to awful circumstances that Governments seem to have, rather like the banning of handguns post-Dunblane. Banning them did not mean that they no longer existed. I can think of a whole series of examples in which the Government thought that they could intervene to stop bad people existing and to stop other things occurring.

Working as a doctor, I have had personal experience of CRB checks. I tried to start working at Feltham young offenders institution, but it took me six months to get clearance to work there. It was an absolute disgrace.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Brown of Silvertown Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman will know that the Law Society, the Bar Council, the Family Law Bar Association and the Lord Chief Justice have all indicated that the changes made by the Government in this Bill will curtail access to the legal system but that the projected savings will not be obtained. Given that the right hon. Gentleman sat on the Bill Committee, perhaps he can tell me why all those organisations are wrong but the Government and the Bill he supports are correct.

[Tom Brake]

In a situation where funding is going to be withdrawn from organisations, it is not surprising that their response is that they do not favour it. The Government need to monitor very carefully some of the concerns that have been raised about the impact of withdrawing legal aid, and we have already had assurances that that will be the case.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ward]

Absolutely. I have come across some pretty scary cases involving several hundred pounds of single-sheet letters from lawyers, but I have had no joy in trying to bring them to the attention of the Law Society. The hon. Gentleman is right. The present system represents good value for money to the public purse.

[Lyn Brown]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous. Community Links, an amazing voluntary organisation in my constituency, provides welfare and benefit advice and is funded, in part, by legal aid. A 10% cut in its fees will jeopardise any remaining advice that it can provide, because it already subsidises the legal aid fees coming in. I presume that he has had the same experience in Bradford.

[Mr Ward]

Absolutely. We have talked about the evidence, but it is almost so overwhelming that we must begin to wonder what is behind this. What on earth is going on here?

--- Later in debate ---

[Ben Gummer]

I bow to my hon. Friend’s superior experience of such matters. There might be a mechanism under which retrospective charging would be possible. We could debate that, and Members on both sides of the House would make reasonable arguments. Given the phrasing of the provision currently under discussion however, such a debate is not possible now.

I hope the Government will be able to provide assurances on another problem. In principle, I am against contingent legislation. I remember sitting up in the Public Gallery when I was very small, watching others in this Chamber discuss prevention of terrorism legislation. The then Opposition, headed by Neil Kinnock, were arguing passionately against that legislation for precisely the reason I am discussing. I do not think that they were right in that circumstance, but I find troubling the idea of putting contingent legislation on the statute book that could be re-enacted by order later without reference to Parliament. I hope, therefore, that the Government will either flesh out their proposals for the retrospective charging of defendants should they be convicted or decide to approach this matter in a different way.

[Lyn Brown]

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman could help us on the motivation of his Front-Bench team for making this clause contingent. Does the Minister need people to walk through the Lobby with him and they might otherwise not choose to do so?

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Brown of Silvertown Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Slaughter]

My right hon. Friend is right. Only 40% of women who suffer domestic violence report it at all, and many go for years without reporting it. They certainly do not have the wherewithal to report it when they are imprisoned not only by violent relationships but by economic circumstances and by having to care for their children. That is what I meant when I said that the Minister does not live in the same world as those victims.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

I have here a report from a local newspaper. Kay Atwal, a reporter on the Newham Recorder, describes the lives of women she has met, saying:

“Your mail is opened by your in-laws, you can’t call your family or friends and you are not allowed out of the house. Your days are an endless round of cooking, cleaning and clearing up punctuated by threats and criticisms. And hanging over you is the constant fear that you could be deported from Britain if your husband divorces you.”

Does my hon. Friend agree that women such as those could well be affected by the changes that the Government are making today?

[Mr Slaughter]

We all have similar cases in our constituencies, and I am sure that the Minister must have, too. Those are the people to whom he should be listening.