Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Minister for Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice (Mike Penning)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Gillan. I welcome the new shadow Minister, the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), to her role. I did not get an opportunity to do so at Home Office questions earlier. We are friends, which is a dangerous thing in this place, and we agree on many things. In fact, I agree with most of what she has said in her comments today.
May I start by saying that I am not from the university elite who smoked cannabis when they went to university? I am not cynical and I am not horrible—I hope. I worked very closely with the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) when he and I were shadow Health Ministers and when he was a Health Minister with responsibility for mental health and I was in a different role.
I have every sympathy for my friends and members of my family who have had MS and the terrible pain and anguish that they go through because of an incurable disease. So I start from the premise of having sympathy. Let us see what we can do in the 21st century to take people out of that environment. However, I have real concerns about legalising cannabis. I congratulate the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) on his position, which has not changed in 40 years. I also congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley). I expected him to be sitting here when I came in to the debate today.
We have had two contributions from people who are medically qualified and who know—not anecdotally—about the medical side and the patient’s point of view. Their contributions have been enormously significant. I believe that the debate would have been more useful if we had talked about the medical side and the help available, rather than the generality.
Mike Penning
If I can make a little more progress, I promise I will give way shortly. I am always generous in that way.
Although we have had a huge petition from people who are for legalisation, I am sure that colleagues in the House have also had people writing to them saying no to legalisation, as indicated by the SNP shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Anne McLaughlin), a moment ago. There is no petition from those who do not want to change the legislation, but a large petition from those who do. I think a significant minority also need to be considered in this debate.
Norman Lamb
I do not think there is any dispute about medical risk. The question is about how one responds to it. Does the Minister really think it is appropriate to give someone who is perhaps suffering from mental ill health a criminal record?
Mike Penning
To be fair, that is different from the point I was trying to make. In the modern way in which we police—not just in the past five years, but for many years—the discretion of a police officer to make a decision is an operational matter for them, and not for politicians. Also, it is not for police and crime commissioners to make such decisions. I know what the Durham PCC said, but operational decisions are for the chief constable. PCCs were not set up to make such decisions. We now have cross-party support for PCCs. I am pleased about the Labour party’s conversion since the election. That is not a snipe—yes, it is—but I am really pleased that there has been a change, because there are excellent PCCs out there and they do an excellent job.
I am also conscious that there are devolved Administrations looking at this matter differently. I will come to some of those points later. Let us see what positives can come out of this. I will not stand here and say, “We are going to legalise cannabis.” I am not going to say that from a moral, personal or Government position. However, we could look carefully, as was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), at the research. We need to look at why the research is not taking place and at the effects of certain parts of the legislation.
Believe it or not, I took a week off the week before last and went to my favourite part of Norfolk: the Norfolk broads. I spent a week fishing while my wife and mother-in-law looked at the other beautiful parts of Norfolk. I used a lot of hemp—we discussed the seeds earlier in the debate. I live in and represent Hemel Hempstead. Some of the bread that some of us buy contains hemp seeds. My hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich alluded to the problem of the seeds being legal, and the rationale behind that, although that does not mean we should not look carefully at the matter, and we will. There should be nothing in statute that prevents research into improving people’s quality of life. I will go away and work with other relevant Departments to see how we can do that.
My good friend the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) alluded to what would happen with the republican response. As a former Northern Ireland Minister, and having served in Northern Ireland in uniform in a different capacity, I know that the sad thing is that these thugs and organised criminals will find something else with which to raise money and destroy their communities, as they have done with diesel laundering and other things over the years. I do not think that legalisation would make a huge difference to what they do, but it might make a huge difference to the lives of the hon. Lady’s constituents, whether mentally or physically, according to the evidence we have heard today.
Another issue, which I discuss with my constituents, is the diverse views about where we should be on this subject. We are as one in wanting to protect our constituents, but we are perhaps looking at it in different ways. Going back to the point made a moment ago by my former right hon. Friend, the right hon. Member for North Norfolk, mental health protection for vulnerable people is probably one of the most difficult and important issues we face, which is why I am so pleased that, after the work we did in the past, so many police forces now have mental health professionals with them on the streets and in the custody suites, and use sections 135 and 136 less.
As we have heard, there is conflicting evidence from studies from across the world. The majority of the world has not legalised cannabis. There is movement, but the majority of the world is in roughly the same position as us. The shadow Minister talked extensively and absolutely correctly about Portugal, but they have a completely different strategy for working with people and moving forward, and that is true not only of their health service. Only last month, the Washington State Institute for Public Policy said that it is too early to decide whether what is going in that state is going to work. The evidence I have before me says that the institute thinks it will not be clear until at least 2017.
Mike Penning
I would like to make some progress. The hon. Gentleman will be summing up at the end, but I will give way shortly.
There will always be one expert in one part of the world saying one thing and another in another part of the world saying another, not least because there will always be such diverse views. Nevertheless, we have to listen to what is going on and use that as our evidence base, as was asked for earlier.
The situation in Holland is really interesting. We have heard different usage statistics today, but the latest figures I have—I might be wrong; if I am, I will write to colleagues and ensure that they know—are 6.5% or 6.7%, according to the crime survey for England and Wales for 2014-15, while the latest figures for Holland are 7%, which is a larger percentage than ours. Holland legalised cannabis and a different situation is occurring there: while usage is dropping here, it has stayed higher in Holland. I am not saying that what Holland has done is wrong—it is an independent country and it is absolutely right and proper that it has its own policy—but when we compare ourselves with Holland, we must not use statistics that might be out of date. If my figures are out of date, I apologise, and I will write to colleagues to correct them. Other points were raised on which I would like to write to not only those colleagues present, but every colleague in the House—those who were not able to attend this debate—to answer such queries.
To the hon. Member for Brighton and Hove, which I think is the name of that constituency now—
Mike Penning
I apologise. She is the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas)—my civil servants will be told off later for the notes I was given. I say to her: do not believe everything that Ipsos MORI or any other pollster says. I was supposed to have lost my seat in 2010, but I returned with a majority of 13,000. Pollsters get it wrong; it is about the questioner.
Mike Penning
The hon. Lady can shake her head, but it is a fact that we were not predicted to win the election, yet we did. There are different views about what pollsters say and can measure, but our job is to protect our constituents.
Caroline Lucas
I was shaking my head only because the polls are one tiny part of the overall case that I and colleagues have been making. Our case has been about looking at the evidence. I find it shocking to hear from both the Minister and, sadly, the shadow Minister no real interest in looking at the evidence. Yes, we have heard two medically qualified people speak, but there is plenty of medical evidence out there that suggests that, for example, freeing up cannabis for medicinal use is a positive thing to do. Will the Minister undertake to look at the evidence?
Mike Penning
I am not certain that the hon. Lady was listening to what I said, but I suggest she read Hansard tomorrow morning. We have cross-party agreement that we will look at research and see how we can help people. I am committed to that, as is the shadow Minister. We will try to do that, but I cannot do it at the Home Office alone; it has to be done across the board. That is the most important thing that can come out of this debate. It is not about who is right and wrong; let us try to work out what can help individuals.
Paul Flynn
The Minister says that he is keen to look at evidence, so will he re-read the report of the Home Affairs Committee? With a Tory majority, it looked at the subject very seriously for a whole year, and concluded that what happened in Portugal was entirely beneficial, with no harmful effects, and is now supported by all parties in Portugal, as well as the police there. Why does he think that an anecdotal sideswipe at that is going to mean anything? Is he not relying on an evidence-free policy instead of taking up the Select Committee’s recommendation to set up a royal commission on this issue?
Mike Penning
The hon. Gentleman is never going to change his view, and that is fine.
Mike Penning
From a sedentary position he chunters on. Let us listen to what the royal colleges have said, because they are the experts. The Select Committee took evidence. I have sat on Select Committees and I know exactly what goes on. I think I am due to give evidence to the Select Committee next week. It is crucial that we do not set ourselves in one position but that instead, we ask what research could help take things forward. That is what I have committed to doing and it is very important.
Norman Lamb
I am delighted that the Minister visited the Norfolk broads. I wonder whether, when he was there, he enjoyed a pint in one of the many pubs. There is very clear, overwhelming evidence that alcohol is more dangerous than cannabis. Can the Minister give any explanation of why it makes sense for that more dangerous product to be legal while a less dangerous product is illegal?
Mike Penning
Well, I am not actually convinced, on the evidence, that cannabis is less dangerous for certain people. As was said earlier, if we were to start alcohol and tobacco policy again from today, of course we would not be where we are now. I accept that point.
In conclusion, I am committed to working with other Departments and whoever else wants to work with us to ensure that, in the 21st century, where cannabis can be helpful through pharmaceuticals, we will try to make sure that that happens. I am committed to looking at the research and at what work we should be doing. This debate has been enormously useful, but I cannot support the petition.