Scotland Bill
Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
That is an important question. If other noble Lords want to make their contributions, I will reply to it and other points when winding up the debate.
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, I have sat through the three and a half hours of this debate. Fortunately, Hansard records our words but not our accents. If it did, it would have to have a little asterisk against mine because, apart from a very brief intervention by my noble friend Lord Neill, I am the only person with a non-Scottish accent who has participated in the debate.
I shall make one point, but it will be quite short. I thank the Minister for what he said in clarifying the Government’s position. It is extremely important. In so far as conditions are going to be set for the referendum in the way in which it is presented in the Section 30 Order in Council, it is extremely important that when we finalise that position, we still carry the support, trust and confidence of the people of the other countries of the United Kingdom that the referendum will be fairly drawn up and monitored. There is more than one party to this referendum. There are the Scottish people and there are the people of the United Kingdom as a whole, and confidence in the political process is important.
For that reason, I will say briefly that although these issues are going to turn up—as we know now, in the Section 30 Order in Council and not in this Bill—none the less the points that are raised in the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and that also arise in his Amendment 94C are extremely important. I emphasise that it is extremely important that we stand by the points that are set out in these amendments. The first is that we are talking about whether Scotland should become independent of the rest of the United Kingdom. There must be a clear question on the ballot paper and in the order. The referendum must be carried out in accordance with the provisions of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 and the draft must be laid before each House of Parliament. The two further points in Amendment 94C seem to be extremely important. The timing must be made quite clear. It cannot be left ambiguous. The question must be equally explicit. I think that the question that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, has put forward in that amendment is excellent.
We need to stick to these points, although I have this terrible feeling, based on a long period in public life, that when we come to negotiations—and there will be negotiations in relation to this Order in Council—gradually a little change will come in. It will not be exactly as it started off, and by the time we get to the end we may find that we are not carrying fully the confidence of all the people of the United Kingdom. Those four points are extremely important to me. They are negotiating points that we need to stick to. We have to be extremely careful that we do not just fade away into something that is much too mushy. We need to stick to the clear points that we have often discussed here. They are extremely valuable and must be carried into the Order in Council.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I shall speak to my Amendment 88, which is part of this group. It may help save your Lordships a little time. I am grateful to my noble friend for the statement that he has just made. As I see it, the position is quite clear: the Government are not going to use this Bill as a vehicle.
I tabled my amendment on 13 September, six months ago. Since then, quite a lot has happened. I tabled it because I thought we needed to resolve once and for all the question of whether Scotland should remain part of the United Kingdom, and I thought that the First Minister would use his period in office to drive a wedge between Scotland and the United Kingdom. Nothing that I have seen in the past six months has done anything other than to consolidate that view. It is therefore very important that we get this matter settled, that we concentrate on whether Scotland wishes to remain part of the United Kingdom, and that issues of devo-max and the rest are kept to one side while we do that.
I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Reid, who intervened twice while the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was introducing his amendment to point out that devo-max means creating a federal parliament and an English parliament. He is absolutely right to say that that would need to be subject to approval by the rest of the United Kingdom.
We are concentrating here on how to get the Scottish question resolved one way or the other. Seeing how the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has suddenly started speaking to a script, I suspect that there is probably a degree of agreement between the Front Benches on the way forward on this. I hope there is. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, shakes his head, but the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was certainly speaking to a script, although after three pages we returned to normal service. I suspect that the three pages may very well reflect the view of the Opposition, but we will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Browne, in due course.
The point is that there is a consensus in this House that we need to have a referendum; it needs to have one question—
Scotland Bill
Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Sewel
One of the difficulties in relation to Europe and getting a common view—almost parity between UK Ministers and Scottish Ministers—would be around fisheries policy. The position of the SNP Administration in Scotland is that—and God knows how it can be done; I do not think it can—Scotland would leave the common fisheries policy. That creates a totally different negotiating framework in that policy area from a Government who say, “We are staying in but we have to reform and modify the common fisheries policy”.
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, as I attended 108 meetings of the Agriculture and Fisheries Council I must just very briefly intervene. Of course, it was very common in the council that a Minister from the Scottish Office—a Scottish member of the UK Government—led for the United Kingdom. This was quite right, because of the huge fishing interest of Scotland. That was perfectly reasonable. I do not remember any case where there was anything complicated about that.
I should add that some other member states did something quite different. For example, a representative of the regional government in Belgium spoke for Belgium on a number of occasions, and I think on one or two occasions a representative from a German Länd spoke for the German delegation in the council. That was not the British position but the position of two other member states.
Lord Stephen
Before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may point out that indeed that has happened: a Member of the Scottish Parliament has represented and has led for the United Kingdom at a European committee. Therefore, the pattern that the noble Lord has described is unusual but it has happened.
Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and Law of Succession) Bill
Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
I have added my name to the amendment. When I was young and at the Bar I remember that there was a High Court judge all of whose judgments were two words: “I agree”. I shall do my best to follow that admirable example as I agree with the analysis of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. I want to add a couple of things. First, paragraph 114 of the Explanatory Notes refers to a case that I was in more than 30 years ago, Macarthys Ltd v Smith, in which Lord Denning set out the exact position recited in that paragraph. The Explanatory Notes recite:
“As Lord Denning noted in the case of Macarthys Ltd v. Smith … ‘Community law is part of our law by our own statute, the European Communities Act 1972. Community law is now part of our law: and whenever there is any inconsistency, Community law has priority. It is not supplanting English law. It is part of our law which overrides any other part which is inconsistent with it.’”
That is exactly what this amendment puts into statutory language. The 1972 Act, the brilliant Act, if I may say so in his presence, introduced by my noble and learned friend Lord Howe of Aberavon, is the organic Act. That Act is the parent. It is that Act which made sure that the binding force of European Community law would not be directly as a result of judgments of the Luxembourg Court but would be directly as a result of the Geoffrey Howe Act. That is what is said here. To recite further Acts which have come in afterwards by way of a list, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, has indicated, is inappropriate.
Lord Williamson of Horton
It seems a long time since we discussed Clause 18 at Second Reading and in Committee. I would recall that it is only tenuously linked to the referendum lock clauses. It has been described as the parliamentary sovereignty clause, but it is perhaps best described, as in the words of the Bill, as a clause on the “status of EU law”. It is a declaratory provision which confirms—it does not establish—that directly applicable or directly effective EU law takes effect in the UK only as a result of an Act of Parliament. Some people do not like declaratory provisions in legislation, but the Government may certainly propose such a clause if they think it has importance in maintaining public confidence by confirming, for the first time in statute, our existing treatment of EU law within the UK’s domestic legal order. It is consistent with the decisions of our courts, notably by Lord Denning in Macarthys Ltd v Smith in 1979.
Amendment 32B has not been moved, so Clause 18 is in the Bill and we have a choice between the Government’s text and the revised text proposed in Amendment 33, which refers specifically to the European Communities Act 1972 rather than to an Act of Parliament. The Explanatory Notes to the Bill state that the words,
“by virtue of an Act of Parliament”,
cover UK subordinate legislation made under Acts and also Acts and measures of the devolved legislatures in exercise of the powers conferred on them by the relevant UK primary legislation.
That is the description, but will the Minister say—this is the same point that has been broadly covered by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay— whether that is the specific reason why these words were chosen in the Government’s text? As everything seems to come back to the European Communities Act 1972, would the reference to that Act in the text of the amendments not also cover subordinate legislation and Acts of the devolved legislatures? That is what has been stated and I should like the Government to confirm whether that is the case.
Lord Waddington
Before my noble friend sits down, does he not agree that however elegant may be the language of Amendment 33 and although it states clearly that EU law is binding in this country because of the 1972 Act, it does not scotch the proposition that EU law may be binding for other reasons. That is surely the point. It says only that EU law is binding because of that because we know it. What we want to be sure of is that the argument that EU law may be binding other than for that reason is not allowed to fly.
Lord Williamson of Horton
I do not agree with that. I think that the point is fully covered by the declaratory provision that the Government have put forward and the possible amendment of it.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. It removes the obscurity and the uncertainty in Clause 18. My answer to the question that has been posed twice now by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, is that the amendment is clear. It is “by virtue” of the 1972 Act and therefore by virtue of nothing else that EU law is recognised and available in law in the United Kingdom. It cannot mean anything other than that. The clarity is provided, in my opinion, by the amendment. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, explained that the answer given by the Minister in Committee about why the clause refers generally to an Act of Parliament rather than to the 1972 Act was because there are other uses of primary legislation, such as the Equality Act, that give effect to aspects of EU law.
I will add to the noble and learned Lord’s explanation about why it is not appropriate for Clause 18 to be drafted in this general manner. First, the constitutional concern that Clause 18 seeks to address and to which he referred does not arise out of the fact that Parliament has on occasions chosen to refer to EU law obligations. The constitutional concern—and I do not share this concern—is that the 1972 Act generally imports EU law rights, powers, remedies and so forth into United Kingdom law without the need for specific enactment. If Clause 18 has any purpose at all it is to emphasise that just as Parliament created this status for EU law by the 1972 Act—and it was only by the 1972 Act—so Parliament may take it away.
The other reason why it is appropriate in Clause 18 to focus on the 1972 Act and not generally is that the 1972 Act did not just give legal effect to EU law rights by Section 2(1). Section 3 provides for recognition by English courts of EU treaties and instruments, and for such matters to be questions of law to be determined in a court in accordance with the decisions of the European Court of Justice.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, I would like to follow the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, because he has been correct in what he indicated. In debates in this House, we have had a great deal of speculation because we live in a world where we cannot be sure what the future will look like. Increasingly, that is the kind of world in which we live. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, who has profound experience, having been, for many years, the chairman of the European scrutiny committee, is absolutely correct in what he says. We are passing legislation which is likely to be tested by coming events in future years and yet we are doing it without giving ourselves any provision for insisting on a review of what we do over the next decade or so.
I shall mention one or two of the speculations that we have discussed in these debates and not agreed upon. One is the proposition which has been advanced on several occasions by the noble Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord Hannay, which is about the possibility that our representatives in Brussels ministerial meetings will find it extremely difficult to support even those things that they profoundly and sincerely believe are in the British national interest because of a fear of setting off a referendum. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, may be right in that and he may be wrong, but the only way to find that out is by experience over the next few years.
Secondly, there has been a great deal of speculation about whether there will be major new issues that might require an amendment to the treaties. Curiously, the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, hinted at one such when he talked about the possible major revisions of the European Union Stability Pact. Of course, that applies only to eurozone countries, but anyone who believes that it will have no implications for the United Kingdom must be living in a world a very long way away from the global financial world of which we are a part today.
We are talking about speculations, but that does not mean that we should not pass Acts of Parliament; it means that the case for looking at them and requiring them to be looked at is extraordinarily strong, and stronger than the case for almost any other kind of legislation that one can think of. I differ a little from the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, much as I respect him, because I can think of quite a few bits of legislation, with domestic implications, that would have gained from a sunset clause. There are one or two pieces of legislation all of us today would be only too happy to have seen off the statute book if there had been an opportunity to revisit them, which there so rarely is.
My next point is with regard to the coalition agreement. On this, I address specifically my friends in the Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties. The coalition agreement, in its wisdom, made it absolutely clear that we should be willing to accept a referendum lock on major amendments to treaties. That is what it says. The major amendments to treaties that we talked about in these meetings, and here in debates in the House of Lords, have ranged from changes to the Schengen agreement, changes to the original euro agreement, and changes that might introduce a common foreign policy or a common defence policy. I freely admit that in this Chamber, we are all agreed—I congratulate the Government on persuading us on this—that there should indeed be a referendum lock on this limited number of crucial issues.
It is also clear that many Members of this Chamber are profoundly concerned, as my noble friend, Lord Taverne, pointed out, about the thought that that group of very tightly disciplined and described referenda might drift into a general practice of referenda of a kind that will destroy parliamentary government; to put it in a non-abstruse phrase: adding a kind of Berlusconi sauce to the solid pasta of British parliamentary practice. I, for one, would be most reluctant to go along that track. My noble friend Lady Falkner is quite right to draw our attention to that, but at no point does the coalition agreement come to terms with the idea that now we will be imposing every change in the passerelles to a referendum—not just an Act of Parliament but a referendum. No one in the coalition is obliged to support that because it is not part of what was agreed in that original agreement.
My third and final point is precisely the one made by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, and my noble friend Lady Falkner and I take exactly the opposite view. It seems to me that one of the great advantages of proposing that there should be a review at the beginning of each Parliament is exactly that that will drive the debate back in the general election itself. What more democratic a structure could one choose to find, one where people would be likely to vote, likely to show an interest, likely to debate the issues before them in television, radio and in the street, than a general election? There is the fact that we would have to agree this legislation again at the beginning of each Parliament, in its very simple and short way, as has been pointed out—the statutory instrument agreed by both Houses. It would take no more than 24 hours, if one wanted to do it that way. The essential point is that no more democratic a process could be found than a general election, in which we should reach a decision on whether we want to continue with this legislation. That is far better than suddenly plucking a referendum out of the air at some point in the Parliament, when most people would be interested in other things and its salience would be low.
So on the grounds of the speculative basis on which we are passing this legislation, of extension of referenda far beyond what our Parliament would want to see and of forcing the general elections to take on a major debate of our relationship with Europe and all the trust that would flow from an election result, I believe that the case for a sunrise and sunshine amendment—I say sunshine deliberately—could not be better argued. I strongly support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and his colleagues.
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, we have had quite a bit of experience recently of sunset clauses, or proposals for sunset clauses—we may keep that to the back of our minds. This amendment would bring Part 1 and Schedule 1 to the Bill, if enacted, to an end at the end of this Parliament. That gives the Secretary of State the power to provide by order, subject to approval of both Houses of Parliament, that the legislation is revived for a further parliamentary period—and so on until the end of time. I did not use the phrase of the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, about an endless series of sunsets and sunrises because I reserve that to my wishes for the next 20 years for my personal life.
What is the purpose of the amendment? It is to provide an opportunity to monitor the legislation, to see how it is operated, if at all, and to see public reaction, in particular whether it has succeeded in its principal objective of improving the connection between the public and the work of the European Union. I would be very interested in that. If this legislation goes through, we would like to see an improvement in that connection and the legislation is directed to do that—let us see if it has made progress in that area. If the legislation is judged to have been successful, it is of course a relatively simple matter to continue it for a further period.
This clause does seem appropriate in this Bill, which is a constitutional innovation, switching from Parliament to national referendums the decisions on a list of issues, and for that reason I support Amendment 35.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, I am afraid that this amendment, if accepted, will be seen by the British people as an unambiguous attempt to wreck the Bill, and so I can but advise your Lordships not to accept it. Not for the first time I must ask your Lordships to see and accept that, uniquely on this issue of our EU membership, your Lordships’ House is strongly and increasingly out of tune with public opinion. We have even managed to debate for many days a European Union Bill which does not address the two key issues about our membership: the disaster which is the euro and the fact that we avoided it, and whether we want to stay in the European Union at all.
I congratulate the Government and the Foreign Office on managing that feat, but it does not make your Lordships’ House any more relevant or popular to the people we are supposed to serve. The British people are not stupid. They are in fact much cleverer, much more patriotic and altogether nobler than their political class. They also work in the real world to earn the salaries to pay the taxes to keep us, the political class, afloat in the style to which we have become accustomed.
Of course the political class does not like referendums. That has been very clearly set out in our debates, and today by the noble Lords, Lord Deben and Lord Brittan, and by those who have tabled and support this amendment. However, the British people are showing strong signs of wanting more referendums, and on this issue all the latest polls show that something like 84 per cent of the British people want a referendum on our EU membership—in or out—let alone the comparatively minor issues covered by this Bill.
The British people understand that what is happening to the people of Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland and other countries is entirely the fault of the discredited project of undemocratic European integration with its attendant euro. It is not just in this country that the public are moving against EU membership and their political class—and, therefore, I might point out, this amendment. I do not suppose your Lordships have noticed the very recent opinion poll in Norway. Norway has moved a long way: according to this poll, 66 per cent are now against EU membership, with only 26 per cent in favour. Opposition to EU membership is highest among people under the age of 30, with 77 per cent against and only 15 per cent in favour. As the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, has reminded us, opinion is moving strongly in France, Germany, Finland, Holland, Austria—in fact, hardly anywhere in Europe is EU membership still popular.
Fixed-term Parliaments Bill
Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Earl of Onslow
I was never Speaker but I am descended from three Speakers. I have never heard of a more awful choice having to be made. If the courts are allowed to interfere, that will have a catastrophic effect on the role of the Speaker. If they are not allowed to interfere, it will have a catastrophic role on the role of the Speaker. I cannot think of anything worse than that. I do not know whether to vote enthusiastically for the amendment or to vote enthusiastically against it. Whatever we do on this amendment will be nothing short of catastrophic.
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, we have heard outstanding speeches from two former Speakers of the House of Commons. I must say that I am a little timid about getting up to say a word when I am the only non-former-Speaker on these two Benches. The speeches from my noble friends Lady Boothroyd and Lord Martin have fully covered the key elements about the defence of Parliament, which is a vital element underlying this amendment, in my view.
Let us imagine ourselves in the circumstances that would be covered by this part of the Bill: that is, that the Government have lost a vote of confidence, the 14 days have gone by and this certificate is called for. Let us also imagine the position of the British public in a situation in which they read in the papers, “Government defeated”, then, “14-day period expires: it’s an election”, and the next day, “Judicial challenge: no election”. This is a critical point from the point of view of operating confidence in the system. Therefore, the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is good, and if it cannot be done in that way we need to strengthen the way of avoiding in this Bill any form of judicial intervention in the system.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, the speeches that we have heard from the former Speakers speak very eloquently for themselves. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, on his amendment. I do not know whether it deals with the issue but two points strike me. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, I could not be here at Second Reading. One thing that concerns me enormously is that the advice of the Clerk of the House can be brushed aside in what, quite frankly, is an almost arrogant way.
Our institutions are very important, although things might have changed. I never really had a reputation in the other place as someone who was easily cowed or very respectful but I respected the Clerk of the House, the institution of the House and the Speaker’s office. For a variety of reasons, the House and the Speaker’s office have come under considerable attack, which is a great source of anxiety. In responding to this amendment, I hope that my noble friend will give us some assurance that he will look at this again because these are very serious considerations. Ministers might believe that the risk is limited but I am with the Clerk of the House and I would not take any risks with this institution. It is a very precious baby and it seems to me quite extraordinary that we have reached this pass.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
“(1A) Sections 10(2) and 11 shall come into force on a date to be appointed under subsection (1B) following reports from the Boundary Commissions, made as if section 11 of this Act were in force, being laid before Parliament by the Secretary of State.
(1B) The appointed date for the purposes of subsection (1A) shall be appointed in an order made by statutory instrument, subject to affirmative resolution of both Houses of Parliament.”
Lord Williamson of Horton
This amendment relates to the date of the coming into force of Clause 11, which will be Section 11 if and when the Bill is passed. Noble Lords will know only too well from our very long discussions so far that Clause 11 is the important clause which deals with the reviews by the Boundary Commissions, the number of parliamentary constituencies and the equalisation subject to a small margin of the size of constituencies. I tabled this amendment in the hope that it would contribute towards an agreement on the Bill, in particular so that the referendum on the alternative vote could be held on 5 May this year. I even had hope last week and, of course, after today's proceedings I have even more hope.
The thinking which underlies the amendment is that, although there is a clear and close deadline set by the Government for the referendum, the timing for the completion of Part 2 of the Bill on the Boundary Commissions’ reviews and changes to constituencies is not so tight. The Government’s timing on Part 2 is that it will be completed in good time—perhaps by October 2013—for use in the general election of 2015. From the almost 100 hours that I have spent listening to discussions during the passage of the Bill so far, I am well aware of the political imperative for the Government that the Bill should not be split and that there is a link between Parts 1 and 2. Because my amendment still permits and requires the work on the constituencies to keep going forward, I do not consider that the link is broken.
I shall briefly explain my amendment. If Parliament agrees that the Bill be passed, the work of the Boundary Commissions would go ahead because they are required by this amendment to make their reports as if Section 11 of the Act were in force. These reports would therefore be subject to the provisions of Section 11 because they have to carry out their work as if Section 11 were in force. When these reports are complete they will be laid before Parliament by the Secretary of State who will set by statutory instrument the appointed date for the coming into force of Section 11. As the date for the coming into force of this section would be set by statutory instrument it would require affirmative resolutions of both Houses.
What is the advantage of deferring the coming into force of Section 11 until it is needed, while the actual operation of the section continues in the mean time? In my view, there are at least two advantages. First, it will strengthen in practice the hands of citizens who wish to make representations about the Boundary Commission’s proposals because Section 11 will not actually yet be in force. Secondly, and more importantly, it will give time for further examination, in particular independent examination, of the practical consequences of the smaller House.
During the course of the debates in this House, there has been a recurring theme that 600 was a rather arbitrary figure—I choose my words carefully—and that the consequences may not have been fully worked through. So I think that it would provide time for an independent examination of the practical consequences of the proposals on constituencies that are in the Bill. This point has been made in the debates and it was made this afternoon, in a short trailer—I think that is the word—by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, when he rather approved this idea. It is always very pleasant to have a trailer that is favourable so perhaps the drama itself may actually be favourably received.
What I have suggested may be relatively small advantages but I think they are worth having, particularly because my amendment does not slow up the work required by Section 11 in the period before it enters into force. Will the Minister think carefully about the independent examination of the practical consequences of the decisions on the constituencies? In my view it could be done under my amendment—I think it would be right to do that. However, at some stage there is a strong feeling in the Committee that we should not just let it happen without any independent examination.
To summarise my amendment: the Bill passes, the work goes on including the work on Section 11 but, just as in the well known showbusiness phrase that the show is not over until the fat lady sings, in this case the show is not over until the Secretary of State lays a statutory instrument setting the date for it to come into force and affirmative resolutions of both Houses are agreed. That is what I might call the political equivalent of the fat lady singing.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, this is an important amendment. It is designed to try to promote the settlement of an impasse in the House. We support the principle of this amendment. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, promotes it on two bases. First, it strengthens the hand of the citizen in making representations in relation to individual Boundary Commission issues. Secondly, and more importantly, it will give time for further examination, particularly independent examination, of the practical consequences of the reduction in the number of constituencies.
We thoroughly endorse that approach. It is implicit in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, that that examination should take place before the implementation of the reduction of the number of constituencies. It is also explicit in the approach of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, that Parliament should have another opportunity to consider this before the implementation. At the heart of the case in favour of that is the widespread concern around the House that the production of this Bill and its passage through Parliament have not been attended by the normal processes that one would expect to precede a constitutional Bill of this enormity and importance.
Noble Lords know the quotes well; the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee in the other place stated:
“The Government has declared that the Parliamentary Systems and Constituencies Bill is intended as a ‘major step’ towards restoring people's faith in Parliament. The Government’s failure to consult on the provisions in this Bill risks undermining that laudable intention”.
Our own Constitution Committee stated:
“We conclude that the Government have not calculated the proposed reduction in the size of the House of Commons on the basis of any considered assessment of the role and functions of MPs”.
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, I would like to comment briefly on the point which the Leader of the House made about the link. I said when I spoke first that I did not actually believe that it broke the link because all the work is going to go forward; and, of course, Parliament controls the result at the end because only the affirmative procedure brings it into effect. The noble Lord’s reply implies considerable pessimism about the coalition’s success in achieving an affirmative resolution in both Houses. I would say that the Government are highly likely to achieve an affirmative resolution in both Houses since the material that we are dealing with is material that they have put into their own Bill. I am therefore not convinced by that argument, but I am convinced of the strength of the Government’s position on it. That is my first point.
Secondly, on the more important question of the independent review, I note that the Government have gone some way towards accepting that there should be an independent review. That is something, but it is not exactly what would result from my amendment, which would make the independent review available before the coming into force of Section 11, so there is a significant difference. I therefore conclude that, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the Government have not actually clinched anything on this amendment—I think that is the phrase. I am, however, interested in the extent of the commitment to an independent review, what it would be and when it might come into force.
I remain of the view that my amendment has value, and I reserve the right to come back to it on Report, when I hope we will be clearer about an independent review, which a large number of people in the House obviously want. Indeed, I thank all those who have supported my amendment, and this part of the amendment in particular. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw it.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, it is many years since I represented North Wales at cricket, but I assure the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, that I shall follow these discussions with considerable interest. I hope that he will allow me to make one brief intervention, which relates to Clause 11 as a whole. Thereafter, of course, the tour of Wales will continue. I have today tabled an amendment, to which we shall come eventually, but not immediately, which would defer the coming into force of Clause 11 until the end of the work of the Boundary Commission on the constituencies—that is, until the reports are laid before Parliament, the Secretary of State proposes to appoint a date and there are affirmative resolutions of both Houses.
I intervene briefly now to avoid any misunderstanding, thats if the coming into force of Clause 11 is deferred, we do not need to amend the clause now. I have tabled my amendment in the hope that it may contribute to an agreement that the Bill should pass, with a view to the referendum on the alternative vote on 5 May. In my view, it remains very important that we should try to get the Bill right. Obviously, there are the key questions of 5 per cent and the excluded constituencies. Before long, we shall come to the question of public inquiries. Today we have the question of the Welsh constituencies. I emphasise that I believe that all these amendments should be properly considered. If we can reach agreement, that is good. That is not inconsistent with my amendment, which would defer the coming into force of Clause 11 if the Bill is passed.
Lord Howarth of Newport
I thank my noble friend Lord Touhig for laying out the case on behalf of Wales so impressively. These three amendments, to which I have added my name, together form a coherent whole. There is the amendment that states that the number of parliamentary constituencies in Wales should not be reduced below 35; there is the amendment that states that there should be no reduction of more than 10 per cent in the number of Welsh parliamentary seats at one boundary review; and there is the amendment that proposes that the measures in the Bill should not come into force unless and until powers have been transferred to the Welsh Assembly in consequence of a vote of the people of Wales in the referendum that is to be held this spring.
This is an important debate. It is a debate that we have to have, not least because in another place, there was no debate specifically on the measures in the Bill which would have such an enormous impact on Wales. In Committee in the other place, when amendments dealing with the situation in Wales would have been reached, I understand that some 30 Members of Parliament stood to catch the eye of the Chair, but the guillotine came down and that debate did not take place. That timetable Motion was not a proper way to treat the House of Commons, least of all when dealing with major constitutional legislation. As a consequence of that, aside from other considerations, it is our responsibility in this House to scrutinise the measure as it would affect Wales and discuss our amendments.
The Government are proposing an extreme and rapid reduction in parliamentary representation for Wales. Wales, which has only 5 per cent of the population of the United Kingdom, would, under the Government's proposals, suffer 20 per cent of the reduction in the number of parliamentary seats for the country as a whole. Wales would lose 25 per cent of its existing seats. By comparison, Northern Ireland would lose 17 per cent of its seats; Scotland 9 per cent; and England only 5.5 per cent. Of course, it is in England that Conservative electoral strength is most concentrated. Whether or not it is the Government's intention to rig the parliamentary system in support of the Conservative Party, I must tell them that there is a real perception in Wales that that is what it is about.
The noble and learned Lord the Minister may contend that, as things are, Wales is overrepresented in the House of Commons. I recognise that, by reference to the principle of numerical equality between constituencies, that is indeed the case. But, as we have frequently contended in the debates on this legislation, there are other factors that it is proper to take into account. Wales is a nation. It was joined with England in 1536, but over the centuries it has had its own history and, as my noble friend emphasised, its own language. Until now, the Parliament of the United Kingdom has recognised that and has accepted that proportionally Wales should have more seats in the House of Commons than the numbers in its population alone would imply.
There are very good reasons for that. Aside from the reality of Welsh nationhood, there is also the geography of Wales which, as the House is aware, is singularly intractable when it comes to trying to achieve numerical equality between constituencies. There are very large rural areas that are very thinly populated. We have spoken about the constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire in our debates. It is 80 miles from north to south and 40 miles from east to west. It is a huge constituency geographically. If the Government’s proposals were to be implemented in their undiluted form, we would have a constituency that might stretch from Crickhowell in the south to Wrexham in the north. It would be an impossible constituency for a Member of Parliament to represent satisfactorily.
RS Thomas wrote some lines about a Welsh farmer penning his sheep in a gap of cloud on the bald Welsh hills. It is that kind of constituency. It is very difficult to traverse the length and breadth of it, and I wonder how the Member of Parliament, even so excellent a Member of Parliament as Mr Roger Williams, would be able to do justice to the work that needs to be done in the constituency on behalf of his constituents and also to his responsibilities here at Westminster. In the south, there are the valleys, the deep valleys, each of which contains its own very distinct community. Let me again say to the House that the Reform Act 1832, which the Deputy Prime Minister cites as his inspiration, introduced into our system of parliamentary representation the principle that Members of Parliament should represent communities and interests. That way, the people of this country would know that they were represented in the House of Commons and Members of the House of Commons would know what the responsibilities of their colleagues were in terms of representing their communities. It is not wise to ask Members of Parliament to attempt to represent at one and the same time very different communities separated by geographical realities that you cannot simply or sensibly ignore.
It may also be argued by the Government that this wholesale reduction in Welsh representation in the House of Commons is the more justified because Wales has its own Assembly which exercises devolved powers of government. I must remind the House that the powers the Assembly exercises at present are powers of secondary legislation and, as my noble friend Lord Touhig explained to the House, great swathes of the policy that determines how life in Wales is to be led emanate from central government. In macroeconomic policy, Wales receives a block grant that is transferred from London to Cardiff. It is an essential responsibility of Members of Parliament representing Welsh constituencies to consider that block grant and make representations on behalf of their constituents as to its implications. Benefits policy, pensions policy, police, immigration, criminal justice, broadcasting, defence and foreign policy are not devolved responsibilities. The people of Wales accept the policy made on their behalf by the Parliament of the United Kingdom and, correspondingly, they need to have representation that enables their interests to be articulated and allows them to make their contribution to our debates. The Welsh nation has a right to see its interests protected through adequate representation in the House of Commons.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, some of us are very keen to see the possibility of some approach that would lead to a solution to the evident difficulties in the passage of the Bill through the House. Since we have dealt with the amendments to Part 1 of the Bill, it would seem reasonable to foresee that this part of the Bill should go through with a view to the referendum taking place on 5 May. However, the timing for Part 2 of the Bill is not so tight, as it requires action on constituencies to be in place by October 2013, with a view to the next election. Has the Leader considered—or would he consider—the possibility that the Bill might launch the Boundary Commission’s work but that Part 2 would come fully into force only by order at a later date? We know there are several other issues, such as the need for some flexibility in the 5 per cent margin on the size of constituencies. However, I intervene now on this key issue of timing so that the Bill might pass but Part 2 be brought fully into force later by order, without compromising the start of work by the Boundary Commission.
Lord Strathclyde
I thank all those who have taken part, particularly the noble and learned Lord. I very much recognise the constructive way in which he wishes to continue. I hope we will soon be able to restart the Committee stage. I also thank the noble Baroness the Convenor of the Cross Benches. It is always difficult for the Cross-Benchers to involve themselves in what they might see as being a political fight. This is now much more than a political battle; there are serious issues about the role of the House in scrutiny, which I tried to lay out. I very much welcome what the noble Baroness said.
I will not respond in detail to what everybody has said. I say briefly to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson: there are many opportunities in this House to raise the issues that he has raised—in Private Members’ Bills and through amendments to other Bills. He may well have a point but it is a point that is not part of this Bill, specifically. I urge him to raise these matters in debate, rather than on this Motion. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, makes a suggestion similar to those that many others have made. We do not mind how we resolve these issues—we know that there must be a resolution—so long as we do not delay the main purposes of the Bill. I beg to move.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
Lord Williamson of Horton Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Williamson of Horton
My Lords, I hope to establish a precedent by posing a direct question to the Minister. That would be a good idea, having sat through all these hours. An occasional question may elicit some response from the Minister which may help all of us. I have a question on this amendment because there is a big difference in principle between the amendment we are now discussing and those on which we spent a long time earlier on the number of constituencies.
Why do I think there is a big difference in principle? In relation to the number of constituencies, we had a voice from the electorate, showing that it wished to reduce the figure from 650 to a lower one. We can argue until the cows come home—indeed, we did—whether it should be 650, 625, 620, and so on. But there was a big difference in that in the electoral manifestos there was a direct statement on that point. Now we come to a completely different amendment relating to the 5 per cent margin and the amendment on the possibility of rising above 5 per cent but not above 10 per cent. Here comes my direct question to the Minister. Do the Government consider that they are in any sense bound by the views of the electorate to stick with 5 per cent? I cannot see that anywhere.
The Government can take 5 per cent as a marvellous figure which they would like to stick with and which they can try to defend. Is there a commitment to the electorate—not to the Government’s friends or anybody else—that I do not see? If there is no commitment, it means that the flexibility we have here is obviously greater than the flexibility we had on some movement below 650 constituencies.
Lord Davies of Stamford
I congratulate my noble and learned friend on introducing the amendment with an analysis that was extremely detailed and lucid. I thought it was quite masterly. He has, more or less at one stroke, transformed the atmosphere of the debates on this subject. The last two contributions—one from the Cross Benches and the other by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, from the Conservative Benches—have shown that the House is now in a mood to discuss the whole issue, pragmatically and calmly, in a spirit of genuine compromise, I hope. A willingness to try to find the right solution and occasionally to accept suggestions from other parts of the House will be a good contribution towards finding that solution. It is a wonderful relief to those of us who have been through a slightly confrontational series of debates during the course of the night.
The amendment tabled by my noble and learned friend addresses directly the issue I raised earlier. As I see it, the Boundary Commission faces in its deliberations—as it always has faced and will continue to face—an equation with three variables and a trade-off between those variables. The variables are, first, acceptability of the extent to which the local electorate is happy with the boundaries within which it is placed, which is very important; secondly, equality of numbers; and, thirdly, the number of MPs. If you fix one of those variables you will have a corresponding distortion of the others. Fixing one will, of course, because of the trade-offs, result in something less than an ideal solution in the others. You will have to pay a price in the others.
If you try to fix two you will produce an enormous distortion. If the Government were determined to maintain the 5 per cent rule at the same time as maintaining the 600 limit for MPs—or any other arbitrary limit for MPs—there will be a tremendous distortion of the important aspect of acceptability in many boundaries in the country. This point has been well made by many colleagues on both sides of the House over the past 24 hours. There would be a great many constituencies where people felt not at all identified with the constituency in which they had been artificially placed. That would be a bad day’s work and we all want to avoid that.
My noble and learned friend has suggested the compromise of not taking away the need to keep within reasonable limits of equality but to have a 10 per cent rule rather than a 5 per cent rule. The effect of that has been quantified by my noble friend Lord Lipsey. If I recall correctly, he said that if the House passes the amendment, something like 30 per cent of constituencies will need to be reviewed because they will be over the 10 per cent limit, whereas under the original draft of the Bill brought forward by the Government, something like 60-odd per cent would need to have their boundaries reviewed because they would be outside the 5 per cent criterion. It is a very substantial quantified difference. In the light of that, I hope that the Government will accept the amendment.
If they do not feel able to accept the amendment, then, in the new atmosphere— which I enormously welcome and, from the remarks of the Leader of the House, I think the Government also welcome it—at the very least the House would expect a reasoned explanation as to why they cannot accept it, together with a better suggestion for achieving what we all regard now as a common purpose. The difficulty we had in the period before the lunch break was—I emphasise to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, who is staring at me at the moment—that there is a genuine concern among many of us on this and other sides of the House that the Government had rigid plans for enormous constitutional reform; that they were not being entirely open about it; that they were unwilling to consult on or discuss the issue before they brought it forward; and that it did not involve only the subjects in the Bill. We know that because they are preparing Lords reform proposals.
There was an horrific moment this morning—I trust that it was a complete misunderstanding—when the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said something which led a number of people to think that he was threatening the House with the introduction of a timetabling system, which would be a real revolution in the House of Lords and obviously not appropriate to a revising Chamber. I trust that the noble Lord did not mean that and that his words were not intended to convey that meaning. I am sure the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, understands that those words were bound to provoke a reaction here. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is not in his place as I make these comments.
While I am discussing this, I should say that I thought I heard him say this morning that in the late 19th century, when the Commons introduced a timetabling system, it did so as a result of filibustering by what he described as “Fenians”. The Fenians were Irish nationalists who were prepared to use non-parliamentary and violent methods, which is a pretty horrific way to describe one’s political opponents in a democratic assembly. I am sure he did not mean “Fenian” in that sense. It is also an insult to the Irish nationalists who were conducting that remarkable filibuster—people such as Parnell, Dillon, Healy, O’Brien and so forth. They were the people who led the Irish filibusters in the 1880s and they were far from being Fenians. They had opposed in Ireland, with considerable courage, those who said that only extra-parliamentary and violent methods would work in dealing with the British. It was a remark that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, might want to withdraw, both as applied to Parnell and the Irish constitutional nationalists of that time and to those of us here.