Commission on Justice in Wales

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 7th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

A lot of matters that are the responsibility of the Welsh Senedd are also cross-border issues. We are talking about police, courts and the way the court system behaves; probation is another example. My understanding is that this matter has been considered and keeping the arrangements as they currently are is seen to be beneficial for both England and Wales.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, was not the consideration that the Minister referred to a moment ago mainly undertaken under the auspices of the previous Conservative Government? Is now not the time that it would be appropriate to look again at this? Given her remit to look at the relationships with Cardiff and Edinburgh, would this not be a suitable matter for Sue Gray to look into?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I am the Minister of Justice for devolution and the various countries within the UK. The manifesto has made it clear that we want to work in practical ways for the benefit of the people of Wales. Two points that I made in my initial Answer to the noble Baroness were on probation and youth courts. I know that a number of very positive examples of practice in Wales are better than the average within England and Wales. We want to build on what is positive that is already happening rather than look at the overall devolution of these powers.

Parc Prison

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, I again associate myself and the Government with the condolences we have already extended to the families of all those affected. We recognise that we are dealing with a very tragic situation.

On the noble Lord’s direct question about body scanners, the Government are considering all possible measures to reduce this problem. The issue of body scanners for all staff as a routine matter is clearly one that needs to be taken under advisement and given the most careful consideration. I think that is as far as I can go today.

I should add, in case your Lordships are wondering, that despite this very unusual situation at HMP Parc, the Government consider that the prison is fundamentally sound. It has more than 1,800 inmates. The youth offender institution, which is separate, is recognised as one of the best in the land. The prison has strengths in supporting, in particular, neurodiversity and autism; it has rehabilitation and resettlement functions, as well as a remand population. There are many positives, and I would not want to give the impression that everything at Parc is going wrong; it is not.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords—

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

The time for questions has completed.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

There have been no Back-Bench questions.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

I regret that, but unless I am advised otherwise, it was a 10-minute Question and it has been completed.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

The time is complete.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

It is totally unsatisfactory that we are in this position. Normally, the 10 minutes kicks in after the Front-Benchers have spoken and there is an opportunity for Back-Benchers to ask questions. Why is that not the case now?

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

I acknowledge that it appeared to be unsatisfactory. The guidance is absolutely clear that it is 10 minutes, and both Front-Bench spokesmen spent considerable time in asking their questions. There can be no further debate on the matter and we will continue with the other proceedings.

Victims and Prisoners Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 31st January 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, I apologise that I was not able to be present at Second Reading—the day job had to take precedence. I rise to endorse thoroughly what the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, said in her speech. I wish not to speak to each amendment but to add a bit of heft to what she said. I do not exactly declare this as an interest, but I was a professional linguist before I went into the Church, so language has been important to me right the way through.

We heard in the Minister’s response earlier that victims must get the information they need. They also must get it in a form they are able to read, or hear, and understand. In this country language is often misunderstood or not taken as seriously as it ought to be, or as one might find in some countries in continental Europe, for example, where you live on boundaries and have to operate in a number of languages. Because we are an island nation, this is something we do not necessarily experience.

Having trained as a translator and interpreter—these are very different skills and professions—I understand the problems of inaccuracy and of getting even nuance wrong. We are talking here about victims who are already seriously disadvantaged. That disadvantage, that damage, should not be exacerbated by running the risk of them simply not being able to be understood, or to understand what is being represented to them.

There is something here about professionalism. If noble Lords do not believe that this is important, I hope they watched the funeral of Nelson Mandela, where the deaf interpreter simply went awry—it looked like he was conducting an orchestra, but badly. He said afterwards that he was simply overawed by the experience, but many people doubted that he had the skill to do what he had been signed up and paid to do. It really matters. I found it very entertaining but not very edifying, so I emphasise the need for professionalism in this.

The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, referred to Google Translate, which most linguists go to for a bit of a laugh and to see what it suggests. When I lecture in German at German universities, I often run my texts through it for the entertainment value, but it is rarely accurate. Now we have translation by AI systems—Google Translate is that, really—which can be entertaining too. They can be helpful if you need a bit of a boost, but you would not rely on them for something that was important for life and death.

That is why the national register is so important. My understanding is that this country has a shortage of not only linguists—I could say much more about that—but qualified linguists able to go on the register and do what we are asking them to do. That triggers a different question. We cannot just say that we do not have the qualified people and therefore must make do; we have a bigger challenge to emphasise the importance of language learning, which has many knock-on effects for how we understand people and culture. As I often repeat, the former German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, when giving advice to younger Germans asking him about going into politics, wrote: “Don’t even consider it unless you have at least two foreign languages to a competent degree, because you can’t understand yourself and your own culture unless you look through the lens of another. For that you need language, because language goes deep”. Some things cannot be translated; you need a degree of expertise to deal with them.

There is a wider issue, but I will not bang that drum any further now. This is fundamentally a matter of justice. If victims are to be heard and to hear accurately, this ought to be in the Bill.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for bringing forward this amendment. When I spoke at Second Reading, I did not realise that this dimension might arise—clearly it can, and it is important. I address the Committee as one of a small minority here who do not have English as their first language. In fact, I calculated over the Easter Recess that I speak in English less than 10% of the time. This Bill will impact not just England but Wales, where Welsh is an official language. I do not see much evidence in the Bill of any adjustment being made for that purpose.

Fundamentally, the Bill deals with victims. There are perhaps four groups of victims for whom the language dimension is critical. First, there are children; at home in Wales, a large number of children—certainly tens of thousands—have Welsh as their first language. They acquire English as a second language as they get older, but under pressure they will no doubt want to revert to their first language, which is the natural language in which they express themselves. Another group of great importance to me and a number of other noble Lords is disabled people. When put under stress, they need assistance. If there is additional stress from dealing in a language that is not their first, they will need assistance.

That is also true for elderly people. As people get older, they revert to their first language, particularly those who have had strokes. People from Wales have found themselves in residential homes in the south of England; the staff think they are speaking gibberish, but they are reverting to their first language. That group also needs to be brought in. Finally, there is the general group of people who are under stress, whatever their age or background, and need to be helped to express themselves in their first language. This is important in Wales. Reference was made a moment ago to the Children’s Commissioner. We have our own Children’s Commissioner for Wales and our own framework, but I am not sure that the Bill takes that on board. Clearly, provision needs to be made.

The day has now passed when an ad hoc translator would be whistled up for a court case from those who happened to be around—usually a minister or a teacher, who could roughly translate what was being said. I have mentioned before in this House how many people over the centuries—although not in this or the last—were hanged without understanding a word of what was going on in the court that declared them guilty.

Victims and Prisoners Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 18th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am grateful to have two minutes in the gap to register my interest, and that of Plaid Cymru, in this Bill. I identify with most of the concerns expressed over the past five hours.

The Bill raises issues which I hope to address in Committee. I certainly concur with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, on IPP sentences. That is an issue on which I campaigned for several years back in Wales. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Carter, on his comments in a splendid maiden speech.

I highlight the uncertainty across party lines in Senedd Cymru in relation to the impact of this Bill on devolved responsibilities. The Welsh Government have complained about a lack of consultation before the Bill was published and suggest that it trespasses on areas of devolved competence. Can the Minister clarify what the latest position is on this?

As mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, a moment ago, there is also a question about who funds the compensation to the victims of the infected blood scandal, which occurred long before the existence of devolved government. Will the UK Government pay those in Wales who have an entitlement or is it expected that the Welsh Government will do?

Welsh Women’s Aid has highlighted the danger of specialist support services such as advocacy, recovery groups and counselling falling outside the scope of the proposed ISVA and IDVA in Clause 15. There needs to be some clarification and perhaps further thought on that matter.

In Clause 12, a “duty to collaborate” is placed on PCCs and local authorities in England only. Will that apply in Wales? If so, does Senedd Cymru have the necessary devolved powers to make it happen or will such powers be transferred to it?

These and other issues are ones which I hope to address in Committee and I am grateful for this brief opportunity to draw them to the attention of the House.

Prison Capacity

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 17th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Is the Minister aware of the very serious problems concerning the recruitment and retention of staff at HMP Berwyn, at Wrexham, one of the newest prisons and the second largest in Europe? It is reported that the staff will not stay because working conditions are intolerable. What are the Government going to do to remedy this?

[Lord Bellamy (Con)]

My Lords, I am not in a position today to comment specifically on Berwyn. I had understood that there are many aspects of Berwyn that have been outstandingly successful. I will write to the noble Lord with more detail in response to his question.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 22nd October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, for introducing the Bill. Like many colleagues, I find this important Bill immensely difficult, for reasons that I share with many colleagues who take the opposite view. I find it very strange to be on the other side from good friends, such as the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson, Lady Finlay and Lady Hollins, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others, with whom I have campaigned on many issues, both in this House and outside. But I can only be true to myself; I cannot turn a blind eye or a deaf ear to those families who plead for such legislation to be on the statute book, based on their own harrowing experiences as families.

I have received dozens of letters—handwritten letters—from such people, not repeating the stock arguments of the sort many of us have received in repetitive emails. Yes, I had had twice as many emails as I have had written letters, but in terms of the range of actual human experience, of personal suffering and passionate pleading, the letters in support of the Bill win the day by a country mile. I am persuaded that legislation along these lines is needed, for several reasons, including that I believe it is fundamentally wrong that, while those who can afford or have the capability to organise themselves to go to Switzerland or wherever can find an escape from pain and anguish, those without such resources have to endure ongoing suffering.

Secondly, we are told that the current law is adequate, but we have evidence of people who have been refused any control over the end of their lives resorting to attempting to starve themselves to death to escape their pain. Thirdly, we know of people who are prepared to go to prison in order to allow their relatives to end their suffering and have a degree of dignity in death. Finally, the weight of public opinion is heavily in support of such legislation: 86% of respondents in a 2019 Populus poll in Wales support it.

The present blanket ban on assisted dying is failing and this Bill offers an opportunity to put it right. It should surely be given a Second Reading today, be examined in detail in Committee—and, yes, amended if necessary. Then it should be passed to MPs to do their constitutional duty and not continue hiding from this most basic issue which their constituents want urgently addressed. I support the Bill.

Child Trust Funds: Children with Learning Disabilities

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 25th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend raises a very good point. I can assure Tammie and Hollie Squire that it is not a question of trust. It is, I am afraid, a question of law. The DWP benefits appointee scheme applies only to benefits from the state and does not extend or apply to an individual’s own assets. That legal position is governed by the Mental Capacity Act. I have to work within the confines of the Act, which is why I am working with the judiciary to make the legal route easier, cheaper and quicker.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I draw attention to my registered interest as vice-president of Mencap, which has been working with the MoJ on this issue. Can the Minister give the House an update on what progress the advisory group has made to date?

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, the advisory group has been meeting not only organisations in the third sector such as Mencap but the financial providers. We have looked at a number of legal and regulatory issues. We believe that the way through this is by working with the Court of Protection. Quite properly, judges control the court and that is the way through to resolving this long-standing problem.

Learning Disabilities: Child Trust Funds

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 11th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, it is not for the Government to comment on the development of private sector proposals and the extent to which—and whether—they comply with the relevant legislation. We are working with all the financial trade bodies to ensure that parents and guardians of young people who do not have the required mental capacity to make the decision to access a child trust fund at age 18 are aware of both lasting powers of attorney and the important benefit of making an application to the Court of Protection before they reach 18 to avoid court fees.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

Does the Minister not accept that there is an urgency about this? Many families face huge administrative burdens and other pressures when their child reaches adulthood. Child trust funds can play an important part in helping with the transition, but accessing them should not become an additional burden, especially when relatively small sums of money are involved. Will he please commit to ensuring that families will be supported proactively in these circumstances —and do this with some urgency?

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I can certainly commit to that: I have arranged meetings later this afternoon to that end, and I will take a personal involvement to ensure that all that can be done is done. I will also liaise with the President of the Family Division but I emphasise that, ultimately, court rules are a matter for the court, and there is a constitutional propriety that I have to maintain.

Prisoners: Foreign Nationals

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 12th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is a champion of those who have been imprisoned under the IPP scheme brought in by the previous Labour Government. The position is that this Government are committed, as I think all Governments before them were, to removing foreign criminals to their own countries where possible. They must be punished but not at the expense of British taxpayers. Therefore they are removed when the relevant section permits their removal. Of course the Secretary of State actively considers the position that he has a power to change the release test but, at the moment, he is not satisfied that it is appropriate to do so.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, in view of the totally unsatisfactory ongoing position with regard to IPP prisoners, will the Minister convey to the Secretary of State that if the Secretary of State is not willing to take and use the powers at his disposal, he should consider appointing a senior judge to review the working of this system in order to get justice for people who are quite clearly not getting it at present?

[Lord Faulks]

We have reduced by 584 the number of IPP prisoners in the last year. There is an indeterminate sentence prisoners co-ordination group, run by NOMS, where close examination is taking place of all serving IPP prisoners. Efforts are made to accelerate their access to the appropriate courses, and we have removed backlogs from the Parole Board. We think that everything is being done to make sure that those who are safe to be released are being released when the Parole Board decides.

European Union Referendum Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Blencathra]

I beg to differ with the noble Lord. I have almost concluded my remarks on the timescale on which we ban things and I am trying to show that, over the years, this House and the other place have been raising the age at which young people are permitted to do things. It is quite incongruous to suggest that, as we raise the age bar every year because we do not trust the ability of young people to make certain decisions, we should suddenly say that we will lower to 16 the age at which people have the right to vote in this referendum.

On 21 July this year we banned anyone under the age of 18 from buying fireworks. Without listing all the other legislation through which we have prohibited under 18 year-olds from doing things like opening a bank account, making a will or appearing in an adult court, the trend is pretty obvious. Rather than Parliament acknowledging that young people are growing up faster and can be trusted with decisions, rightly or wrongly, we have been going in the opposite direction. Almost every year we have been raising from 16 to 18 the age at which young people can do things. I simply say that we cannot have it both ways, as the proponents of this amendment are arguing. We cannot say that young people should be permitted to vote at the age of 16 because they are more aware and mature—and then push the age up to 18 for almost everything else.

I conclude by saying that if under 18 year-olds are not fit to serve on a jury and judge the fate of an individual human being, I submit that they are not fit to decide the fate of a nation.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I tabled a detailed amendment in Committee to make this provision, but I am very happy indeed to support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness.

Against the background of the constitutional referendum in Scotland last year, it strikes me that a principle has been established that we as a House and the Westminster Parliament are willing to consider, at the very least, that in constitutional matters, this may be appropriate. The rationale as I understand it in Scotland was that the decision was so far-reaching with regard to the future of Scotland that everyone who could make a reasonable contribution to that decision should be encouraged to do so, and that 16 and 17 year-olds were seen in that context. Surely the decision we are about to take with regard to the future of the United Kingdom, inside or outside the European Union, is equally far-reaching. It is going to affect those young people and people of all ages for the rest of their lives.

Of course we have to draw a line somewhere, but saying that it is all right for people aged 16 and 17 to vote does not mean that we must then necessarily say, “What about 15, 14 and 13 year-olds?”. That reduces the argument ad absurdum. The principle has been acknowledged, not only in Scotland but also in Wales with regard to some of the changes to the powers of the Assembly that we may make. How on earth can we say that it is all right for young people in Scotland and Wales to vote, but not for young people in the context of the United Kingdom? Is the relationship of the United Kingdom with the European Union going to be seen as something that looks to the past and to a type of Britain that some people might identify with, but I suspect that the majority, both in this Chamber and certainly in these islands, might not? If we are looking forward, if we are outward-looking and positive and if we want our young people to play a role in that sort of community, surely we should trust them with regard to this vote. I hope very much that this Chamber will give them that opportunity.