Baroness Smith of Llanfaes
To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they plan to implement the recommendations of the report of the Commission on Justice in Wales, chaired by Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)
My Lords, the commission’s report, published in 2019, is substantial and makes 78 recommendations, a significant number of which are for the Welsh Government to consider. There are some recommendations that the Ministry of Justice is either already delivering or has agreed to take forward, including better disaggregation of Welsh data. However, the report’s principal recommendation to devolve justice to Wales goes considerably further than what is in the current Government’s manifesto. Our manifesto made commitments to explore the devolution of services to enable them to be more locally responsive, and as part of that strategic review we will look into probation as part of wider devolution across England and Wales. We will also work with the Welsh Labour Government to consider the devolution of youth justice. Overall, we will work with the Welsh Government to ensure that we deliver justice in a way that best serves the people of Wales.
Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (PC)
My Lords, this month marks the fifth anniversary of the Thomas commission report, which called for the devolution of policing and justice to Wales. The Welsh Labour Government endorse this recommendation in their programme for government for 2021-26. Meanwhile, we have just heard that the UK Labour Government plan only to “explore” devolving youth justice and probation to Wales. Will His Majesty’s Government follow the calls of their Welsh Labour colleagues and take real action by devolving justice and policing to Wales?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
The Welsh Government highlighted, in their May 2022 report Delivering Justice for Wales, the progress that they had made in implementing the Thomas commission recommendations that fall to them. They also commented that implementing the recommendation was delayed partly because of Covid-19. The commitment to pursue the case for devolution of justice and policing was included in the Welsh Government’s programme for government for 2021-26. However, as I made clear in the original Answer to the noble Baroness, the UK Government are not pursuing that option of complete devolution. We want to work in a constructive way on the initiatives that I have outlined to try to make the best possible benefit for the people of Wales.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, why would it not be sensible and cost-effective at least to have a Welsh division of the High Court of Justice sitting permanently in Wales to monitor and construe the legislation of the Welsh Senedd and the administrative acts of the Welsh Executive, with increasing expertise from both lawyers and judges in Wales?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
A lot of matters that are the responsibility of the Welsh Senedd are also cross-border issues. We are talking about police, courts and the way the court system behaves; probation is another example. My understanding is that this matter has been considered and keeping the arrangements as they currently are is seen to be beneficial for both England and Wales.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, was not the consideration that the Minister referred to a moment ago mainly undertaken under the auspices of the previous Conservative Government? Is now not the time that it would be appropriate to look again at this? Given her remit to look at the relationships with Cardiff and Edinburgh, would this not be a suitable matter for Sue Gray to look into?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
I am the Minister of Justice for devolution and the various countries within the UK. The manifesto has made it clear that we want to work in practical ways for the benefit of the people of Wales. Two points that I made in my initial Answer to the noble Baroness were on probation and youth courts. I know that a number of very positive examples of practice in Wales are better than the average within England and Wales. We want to build on what is positive that is already happening rather than look at the overall devolution of these powers.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
My Lords, any observer of Welsh politics these days will not fail to have noticed that the Welsh NHS has 22,000 people on its waiting list awaiting operations, the Welsh education system is the worst in Europe, the Welsh Government are about to spend roughly £150 million on 36 additional Members, and there are vanity projects such as 20 miles per hour everywhere. Does the Minister really believe that the Welsh Labour Government can cope with the complexities of any aspect of the criminal justice system being devolved?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
I notice that the noble Lord is addressing the House from the Back Benches, whereas I understood that he had a Front-Bench position. He is shaking his head, so I apologise. To answer his question, we want to work constructively with the Welsh Government. I personally will be visiting Cardiff and Newport before the end of this month, and I know that many of my colleagues have ministerial visits; we want to work constructively with the local Ministers.
Lord Keen of Elie (Con)
Can the Minister please confirm that, as the newly appointed envoy for devolved nations and regions, Sue Gray should have an oversight of the implementation of this sort of devolved policy? If that is not the case, will he please advise the House what she is going to be doing?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
The simple answer to the noble and learned Lord’s question is that I do not know the answer to his question.
Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)
The subject is a complex one; the report was lengthy. Do the Government intend to set out in detail why the report was wrong? It would be very useful to have a chapter-by-chapter explanation of why what was recommended unanimously by a completely apolitical group of experts is thought to be wrong.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
The noble and learned Lord’s report was a large piece of work. As I said in my initial Answer, it is for the Senedd to take forward the vast bulk of the recommendations, and the UK Government are acting on some of the recommendations and are continuing to act particularly on the disaggregation of data. The Labour manifesto made clear that the principal objective of the noble and learned Lord’s report is not one that the current Government share. We want to work in practical ways for the benefit of Wales, and the examples that I gave of youth justice and probation are good examples of that.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, following on from the question from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who noted that the Labour Government seem, as in many things, to be following the path of the Tory Government, and picking up the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, if the Government wish to maintain the union, given that there is rising evidence of interest in independence in Wales, would it not be a good idea to explain clearly to the people of Wales why, as the noble and learned Lord said, the Government are going against this report of independent experts that was very carefully considered?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
It is worth saying that Welsh lawyers and Welsh law firms benefit from being part of the internationally-renowned English and Welsh legal system, and the Welsh people have consistently voted against devolution—the noble Baroness looks confused, but that is the context within which we are dealing with this question. We are clear that there are profound benefits from keeping a combined legal system for England and Wales. A couple of practical examples are in the context of prisons, where there is no women’s prison in Wales nor any category A offender prison. That is not a cost to Wales, but it is beneficial to the combined system as there are savings to be made through not repeating, for example, women’s prisons in different parts of the country. The benefit is there, and we want to protect it and manage the system for the benefit of the people of both England and Wales.