Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill

Lord Warner Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest in the sense that my wife is a trustee of a major public orchestra. It does not receive public money, but I just make the point: if you do not receive public money, are you one of these public bodies? If you do, do you become one, and does that mean that you make a choice, which is quite a serious choice?

I also declare an interest because in my business we advise people on procurement and sustainability of procurement. I say to my noble friend that procurement is a very difficult issue on which to advise, because it is very widespread. What does it mean? It means almost everything from what might be called lavatory rolls at one end to procuring very large numbers of services or products. It can also cover the issue of the orchestra that procures another orchestra from abroad. As the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, said, it might have intended to bring an orchestra from, let us say, Russia to this country; if it then decides not to do so, is that the kind of decision that comes under the Bill?

I also have a concern, as the noble Baroness put forward, that the Secretary of State has an ability to remove from the exceptions things that for most of us are really important. If we are not to be allowed to procure on the basis of sustainability or climate change—things that really are existential issues—we have a serious problem, because on any definition of public bodies, the very bodies we are talking about are the ones that ought to be procuring and investing on those bases. The idea that this is only temporary, that it is in the Bill but can be removed by the arbitrary decision of the Secretary of State—and it could be arbitrary, because there is nothing in the Bill to say it is other than arbitrary—worries me considerably.

I rose not just to say that to my noble friend. I am afraid that the Government have a record of producing Bills that do not appear to have been carefully thought through. If the Bill had been produced to me as Secretary of State for the Environment, I would have sent it back and said, “There are too many questions in this, and I don’t want to have to present it to either House of Parliament because I can’t answer a number of the questions”. I do not blame my noble friend for not being able to answer some of these questions, but they are pretty fundamental, are they not? I just wonder what the Secretary of State responsible for the Bill said when it was brought in front of him. Did he ask what the definition of public body is or what a public function is? If he asked those questions, did he get answers? If he got answers, were they satisfactory, and why do we not have those answers when the questions are asked on the Floor of the House?

My worry is this. Out there large numbers of bodies, some of them very small, are worried that this will affect them. I do not believe that kind of legislation does us any good at all. Precision is absolutely crucial here, and we need to restrict this to a very clear, relatively small number of bodies and have a very clear understanding as to what it means.

If we take sporting bodies receiving government money—I cannot claim to be a sportsman and I declare no interests whatever on this front—it seems to me that if individual sportsmen wish to boycott something, the sporting body probably has to discuss that. If a body discusses that, it seems to me that under this Bill it can easily get itself into a position in which that is improper, if not illegal. Again, I do not see why people should have to ask themselves this question.

We are, at the moment, seeing a very inelegant discussion about individuals’ decisions on tax matters, pretty unfairly in most cases I have heard. It is difficult to understand quite a lot of the detailed tax legislation, but producing this legislation will ask a whole lot of other people to understand very detailed and extremely difficult concepts. I say to my noble friend that all I want is to feel that I could vote for something that I understand, and that other people can understand, which does not reach beyond the necessary areas and actually achieves some good. Those are three perfectly reasonable requests, but I am not sure that the Bill meets any of them so far.

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, we are dealing with a Bill that is in highly controversial territory. If we have sloppy definitions in the Bill, it will encourage litigation. It would be a strange thing if we passed a Bill with a lot of problems around definitions that causes, over time, more people to raise issues around sources of investment through the courts. With all due respect to the Government of Israel, from time to time they have shown quite an enthusiasm for using litigation to make their points.

Also, picking up from the last group of amendments, we live in a rather different time in terms of who raises money for public services, particularly capital money for investments. If we take health and care, the areas I know something about, there is a lot more interest in the idea of going into the private sector—private equity and PFI being good examples—to try to raise money to build facilities of some kind or another for which the public sector has found it difficult to find the money. People who raise funding and use it to provide public services perform a kind of public function. If we have a sloppy Bill, they leave themselves exposed to probing of where their sources of money come from. You then run the risk of driving these people away from the kind of investments in public service that we may need to get some of our old capital structures improved over time. I suggest to the Committee that if we do not tighten up these definitions, we run a series of risks that are self-defeating to any Government.

[Lord Boateng (Lab)]

I am very grateful to my noble friends for these probing amendments, and even more grateful after hearing the contributions from Members opposite that they have elicited. A number of very serious questions have been raised about ambiguity and lack of clarity.

I hope that the Minister is not tempted to reply with words that are meant to reassure us, such as, “Don’t worry. Everything will be all right. The Secretary of State will decide”. I must confess to the Minister that, the older I get, the less confidence I have in Secretaries of State. I suspect that, in a few months’ time, she will begin to have less confidence than she currently has. There is a good reason for that: all of us—I emphasise this—whatever side of the House we are on, need to be wary of overpowerful government.

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

We are going to be discussing the Occupied Territories in a group two or three later in this Bill and I do not have an answer to the noble Lord on this point today, except to reiterate that this Bill has been collectively agreed. I was particularly talking about the arrangements for regulations which, in turn, had been collectively agreed. I explained the system that when you have a new statutory instrument, there is a write-round which involves all relevant Ministers. In this particular case, that would certainly include the Foreign Secretary.

[Lord Warner (CB)]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, can I ask her to take away the point I was ineptly trying to raise earlier? If a public body—we could take as examples housing, health and care—has an investment decision to make on a new building and/or new services, is it expected to find out more about the sources of the money going to be used to enable it to perform public functions and provide new public buildings? Are they expected to go that far?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I am grateful for that point, but I am not sure I entirely understand it, so perhaps I can offer to meet the noble Lord or to write to him and make sure that he gets an answer in good time.

Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill

Lord Warner Excerpts

Wednesday 17th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

I apologise for being rude. I was merely trying to give the noble Baroness some advice on when it is sensible to interrupt and when it is best to keep your peace.

Finally, it seems sensible that not every public body will have somebody with the eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, on it to give this kind of advice. It seems very sensible that—

[Lord Warner (CB)]

Risking my life slightly, I wish to intervene. The noble Lord has made a lot of statements about the damage done either within the regimes run by the Gazan authorities—Hamas—or as a result of war. I have been to Gaza and the West Bank quite a few times, sometimes when there has been a reasonable peace and the people have been able to get on with their lives. During those periods, the pollution of water and of the sea and the problems of sewage were monumental. This is not something to do with the war, the wars, or the tumult from invasions; it is actually that the status quo in Gaza is appalling. It was not just me who said this. I seem to remember that a former Prime Minister, who is now the Foreign Secretary, described Gaza as an “open-air prison”. Does the noble Lord accept that there are some seriously long-entrenched problems of—

[Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)]

My Lords, interventions should be brief and to the point. Can the noble Lord please get to the point?

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[Lord Warner (CB)]

They are relatively brief, considering how long the noble Lord, Lord Pickles, has been speaking, and some of the claims he has made.

[Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)]

The noble Lord knows full well that this is an intervention, so can he please get to the point and his question of clarification?

[Lord Warner (CB)]

If the noble Lord had not jumped up I would have got to my question; it needed some context. Does the noble Lord, Lord Pickles, accept that there are some long-standing problems, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Hain, mentioned, with the state of the environment in Gaza?

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

I am most grateful; I was actually just about to finish, but I will take into consideration what was said. I too have visited Gaza in happier times; some of the happy times I spent in the region were in Gaza by the Mediterranean Sea. The noble Lord is right: there have been some long-standing environmental problems in Gaza, which have been caused largely by Hamas. Let me give the noble Lord just one example. Hamas refused to co-operate with Israel on a desalination plant. Hamas could have had a desalination plant, which would have provided lots of fresh water, but it did not want it because it does not want to see ordinary Gazan citizens enjoy their life. Hamas wants them to be continuously in a state of disruption.

The final point I was making was that not every public body would have the benefit of the guidance of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, nor would it necessarily have someone else to offer a balance to what he said, so I think that decisions regarding Israel are better taken by the Government.

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[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

I was referring largely to procurement because those were the decisions that were made by the two devolved Administrations that I cited. I would be very surprised if the FCDO had advice that boycotting procurement decisions relating to the Occupied Territories was something that it approved of, and therefore it was something that it thought the devolved Administrations could do. However, in any event, that is for the Foreign Office, not the devolved Administrations, to determine. I do not think we can get away from the fact that the current devolution settlements give foreign policy autonomy to the UK Government.

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, I have listened to this debate with some astonishment. I will not raise the issue of the ECHR; we will come to that when we get to my Amendment 48. However, to keep chanting the view that it is for the national Government to make foreign policy seems to be ducking out of a fundamental democratic issue.

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[Lord Hain (Lab)]

I am very grateful. I agree with everything he has said. On his point about central government not always being correct, that would have been the case in the 1930s when a Conservative Government were appeasing Hitler and there was massive pressure from outside, from people in all walks of life who took a different view, that eventually forced a change of policy and Churchill took over with a different policy—thank goodness.

[Lord Warner (CB)]

Absolutely—I thoroughly agree with the noble Lord, and this comes to my question as to whether the Government have thought this through. I do not know what the penalties will be for breaches of this law, but I can foresee that, on some issues, people will feel so strongly that they will be prepared to pay—you might say it is the cost of trade—the penalties so that they can demonstrate to the Government what they feel about a particular action in a particular country by a particular Government. Have the Minister and the Government thought through what happens if there is a willingness among groups of people to take a stand against this Bill, accepting that they may get some financial penalties and being prepared to pay those penalties because they feel so strongly about a particular issue?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I will try to be brief at this late hour. I spent my entire career studying and writing about foreign policy. The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, was kind enough when he made his speech some months ago to say that, when he joined the Foreign Office, he was told, “You’ve got to read William Wallace’s The Foreign Policy Process in Britain”, before he started work—so I know a little about it.

I emphasise there has always been, and remains, a difference between the approach to foreign policy in the security sense and defence sense—in which it is quite clear one has to have command, central control and therefore real concern about sovereignty—and to trade policy, international investment and procurement, which are usually controlled by a different department, often in competition with the Foreign Office, and in which subordinate entities of government, in most states, also have degrees of latitude. The German Länder pursue different international investment policies. I remarked earlier that the British Government are negotiating trade deals with Washington state, Texas and others within the United States. The idea that all foreign policy in the broadest sense, from immigration through to defence, has to be undertaken by central government is an extreme sovereigntist and unionist case, which I think should not hold.

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[Lord Warner (CB)]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but I am still trying to puzzle out what happens, to take the example of Scotland, if there is a great deal of resentment about this legislation, particularly Clause 4. What happens if the Scottish Parliament, presumably protected by privilege, decides to have a debate, there are a number of decision-makers under Clause 1 in that debate, and they voice their view in a way that is totally different from the Government’s view on that particular country and the issue they are debating? Would the UK Government then wind itself up to fine them? I am not quite sure what the fine levels will be. What if the Scottish Parliament then has another debate and decides not to pay the fine? This does not seem a fanciful position, given that the Government seem to be going out of their way to annoy the devolved Administrations. What will the Government actually then do, in practice?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

If I may, I will come back to that at the end of the speech, because I want first to try to explain what we are doing with the devolved Administrations. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said that the WTO already places non-discrimination requirements on public authorities. Although this is the case, these obligations do not cover all countries and territories and apply only to procurement decisions, not investment decisions.

To return to the subject of legislative consent, I think it is fair to say that we are disappointed that the Senedd and the Scottish Parliament have refused to give their consent to apply the ban to their Ministers and the respective departments and agencies. It is always the Government’s intention to legislate with the support of the devolved Administrations and, where relevant, the consent of the devolved legislatures. We will therefore continue to ensure that the interests of the devolved Administrations, including the devolved assemblies, are fully taken into account. Contrary to the noble Baroness’s suggestion, we do engage with the devolved Governments. I was in Northern Ireland last week, I visited the Welsh Government relatively recently, and my office has contacted the offices of the relevant Ministers in the Scottish and Welsh Governments. I hope to meet with them in the coming weeks to discuss further how we can gain their support for the Bill.

Brexit: Stability of the Union

Lord Warner Excerpts

Thursday 17th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, on such a timely debate. I have been exposed to constitutional issues for a long time as a senior civil servant, special adviser, Minister and Member of this House. I have always had reservations about our unwritten constitution, once described by the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, as the “good chaps” system of government. I thought we were moving away from this with the constitutional changes introduced by the new Labour Government after 1997, in which I was involved.

It is worth reminding ourselves what a Government can achieve in these areas when they put their mind to it. Devolved Administrations were introduced, although regional assemblies for England were not pursued; a Human Rights Act incorporated the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law; freedom of information legislation reduced Whitehall’s secrets; most of the hereditary Peers were removed from this House, although our functions remained unchanged; and stronger oversight of elections was introduced. For a while it looked as though this programme would take the UK forward on a reasonably agreed basis, but Brexit has shown otherwise. Enabling major changes to international treaties through populist referendums has exposed our representative parliamentary democracy to serious dangers. Until the last 48 hours, Parliament has proved incapable of stopping two misguided Conservative Prime Ministers seriously damaging our country through vain attempts to unify their own political party. The result was well captured by a leader article in the Economist on 22 December, which commented on how,

“a rich, peaceful and apparently stable country can absent-mindedly set fire to its constitutional arrangements without any serious plan for replacing them”.

That seems to sum up pretty well where we have managed to get to.

We have to start considering the major constitutional weaknesses exposed by the whole Brexit fiasco. We badly need to reshape the current constitutional settlement and the relationship between the centre and the nations and regions. We need one that includes much more effective curbs on the Executive. For a start we need to reconsider the size, functions and character of both Houses of Parliament and to better define their relationship both to the Executive and to the devolved Administrations and English regions—a sadly neglected area. We now have no effective Government in Northern Ireland, a restive Scottish Government with independence still on its mind and no consistency of approach to major English city regions. Reforming the functions, composition and size of this House is long overdue. We should be changing it to an indirectly elected and partially appointed senate with a strong regional and nation component.

The pressure for some kind of broad-spectrum constitutional debate seems inevitable. The more we can do to generate that, the better. This debate will need to involve all parts of the UK and to consider the relationship between government at all levels—UK, regional and nation, and local. The neglect of local government in England in particular is a disgrace. Some new forum to begin work on this agenda is badly needed, because I cannot see either of the two main political parties in their present state tackling an agenda of this kind.

Gaza

Lord Warner Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Warner]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what arrangements they have in place to monitor the impact on humanitarian aid for the population of Gaza of the blockade by the Government of Israel; and what representations they have made to the Government of Israel about the blockade.

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[Lord Warner]

My Lords, it gives me no pleasure this evening to be raising the issue of Israel’s blockade of Gaza and its consequences for the 1.7 million Palestinians who live there, 50 per cent of whom are children. Three years ago, the Israeli military was conducting Operation Cast Lead that took the lives of over 1,000 Palestinians, razed whole neighbourhoods to the ground in East Gaza and destroyed many Palestinian factories. I have seen at first hand the devastation caused by that operation and heard locals’ accounts of the military behaviour towards unarmed civilians on my two visits to Gaza. Since Cast Lead, Israel has occupied Gaza’s territorial waters, leaving only three nautical miles for Palestinian fishermen, although the Oslo agreement provided for 18 nautical miles. Fishermen who approach the boundary are liable to be shot, detained or sprayed. Israel has also created a military buffer zone on Gaza’s northern and eastern borders which it is estimated has confiscated 30 per cent of Gaza’s arable farming land. People are regularly shot at and sometimes killed in this buffer zone. Israel has addressed its security concerns by confiscating Gaza territory rather than use its own land in order to create the buffer zone.

Israel has seriously restricted the flow of goods and people in and out of Gaza. According to UN figures, during the first two years of the blockade, 112 containers on average entered Gaza from Israel daily, compared with 583 before the siege. Even after Israel said it had eased the siege in May 2010, the daily number rose to only about 150. Apart from the Rafah crossing from Egypt, where the Egyptian military has effectively imposed its own controls, as I have experienced twice, Israel controls all other border crossings. I am informed that Kerem Shalom is now the only functioning crossing point and that the Israelis have started to demolish Kami, which previously had the largest capacity. This may encourage more materials and goods coming through the illicit and primitive tunnels between Egypt and Gaza, which I have also seen in operation. These tunnels regularly collapse and kill people. It is estimated that about 250 adults and something over 50 children have been killed or seriously injured in the tunnels.

Israel has imposed a tightening blockade on Gaza that has effectively created the largest open-air prison in the world and represents a collective punishment of Gaza’s civilians. My understanding is that this is in direct violation of Article 33 of the fourth Geneva Convention, but perhaps the Minister can confirm that and say whether he disagrees with any of the facts I have given so far. I would also welcome any light he can throw on the current situation on Israel-Gaza crossings and on whether there have been any improvements in the flows through Rafah since I went through there last July.

What has all this meant economically and socially? A flourishing fishing industry has been brought to its knees, and farming has been unnecessarily restricted. After destroying some 1,300 Palestinian factories, Israel now prevents the import of machinery and raw materials to enable the Palestinians to rebuild their manufacturing capability, particularly in textiles and furniture in which they specialised. Businessmen have spoken to me about the difficulties of establishing the banking services that would support an export trade. An industrial sector that used to account for 40 per cent of national income in Gaza now employs about 15,000 people.

Gaza’s infrastructure is falling apart. Rebuilding the homes, schools and other public buildings destroyed by the Israeli military is seriously curtailed by Israeli restrictions on the importation of cement, steel and other building materials. Governments and private donors see their aid efforts frustrated by these restrictions. Gaza’s water, sewage and healthcare systems are on the verge of collapse. Only some 5 per cent of the water coming out of Gaza’s taps is fit to drink. Sea water is filling the gaps in the Gaza aquifer and could soon wreck it. Waste water projects are being delayed, so huge amounts of sewage have to be pumped into the Mediterranean Sea. Lack of fuel means that eight to 12-hour blackouts are common. Nitrate levels in water are rising dangerously and are said to be causing an increase in cancers. Gastroenteritis is now a way of life for Gaza’s children, 70 per cent of whom are said to be anaemic.

A visit to Gaza’s 650-bed main hospital is deeply depressing. It reveals crumbling and unfinished buildings, poor equipment and doctors who have run out of surgical sutures, gloves and disposables. Surgery, including heart operations, is interrupted by power cuts and the lack of fuel for emergency generators. Doctors have told me that about 500 patients have died unnecessarily in recent years from lack of medication, including many children. On my visit last July, I saw people to whom this would happen, including children with sickle cell anaemia. On that visit, the Gazan Minister of Health estimated that the hospital regularly lacks 150 to 200 basic drugs, including things as simple as paracetamol. The latest figures I have been given are that Gaza’s hospitals are at “zero stock levels” for 178 of 480 essential drugs, with another 69 at low stocks. Not all these problems in Gaza’s healthcare system can be laid at the door of differences between Ramallah and Gaza, regrettable though they are.

In 2000, only about 10 per cent of the population was dependent on humanitarian aid. Now it is about 75 per cent. Over half the households face food insecurity defined as inadequate physical, social or economic access to food. Since the blockade, the number of Palestinians living in abject poverty has tripled to 300,000, and I know from having seen some of those households, that it really is abject poverty. The unemployment estimates vary from about 25 per cent to 35 per cent for the whole population and rise to somewhere between 40 per cent and 60 per cent for young people, but the aid dependency figures that I have just given suggest that the higher estimates may be nearer the mark. UNRWA has done and continues to do a fantastic job, but it is now struggling to secure the resources needed from donor countries.

I have set out these data to give a picture of what Gazans face day in, day out. Half the population are children who have done nothing to justify this treatment by Israel, whatever their genuine security concerns. As the Israeli columnist Gideon Levy said,

“this time we went too far”.

I carry no torch for Hamas but it did win a fair and democratic election in 2006. It also looks as though Fatah and Hamas may have reached agreement in recent discussions in Qatar on a unity Government. Does the Minister not think that the time has come for the international community to take a more robust stance with Israel over its conduct in Gaza? Its behaviour is self-defeating. Young Gazans are growing up with no hope. Why should they not turn to the extremist elements in Hamas for their role models, to match Israel’s own extremism? What further action are the Government prepared to take with international partners to get the Israelis to change course and how much worse do things have to get in Gaza before the international community acts decisively?

In his speech to the European Court of Justice on 25 January, the Prime Minister said that he supports,

“the spirit of freedom … across the Arab world”.

Gaza is part of that world, so what tangible and effective support can it expect from the UK and its EU partners while the United States seems self-preoccupied and unwilling to focus on Palestine?