Devolved Authorities: Expenditure outwith Competences
Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts(10 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
I think it is right for me to say that we welcome the return of the Executive and of devolved government in Northern Ireland. Indeed, I think the Prime Minister is attending Stormont today. A substantial budget has been made available as part of that settlement, and I look forward to hearing the outcomes of that, both from the new Executive and of course from our Northern Ireland Ministers.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
Does the Minister agree that if Ministers in a devolved Administration wish to embark on a course of action or incur expenditure that may well be beyond devolved competence, one might reasonably expect civil servants to seek a written ministerial direction? What information does she have about the number of written ministerial directions sought from Scottish Ministers in the last five years, and what conclusions does she draw from either their frequency or their infrequency?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
The noble and learned Lord makes an interesting and important point. I understand that any directions of that kind from a Minister would have to be published, and I am not aware of any such directions having been made in relation to the issues that the noble and learned Lord describes. The Government recognise the strength of the arguments and, as I said, are in the process of considering how guidance might support civil servants working in the devolved Administrations on areas that might relate to reserved matters.
Elections: Personal Data
Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts(6 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Young of Cookham
I have had some in-flight refuelling from my noble friend to my left who has responsibilities for DCMS and, in a nutshell, his answer was “Lots!”.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
My Lords, have any of these desk officers drawn to the noble Lord’s attention the opinion submitted to the Select Committee in the House of Commons relating to alleged non-declaration of payments during the referendum to AIQ data services? Specifically, in paragraph 13 of that opinion, the view is expressed that,
“the extensive grounds for suspicion of the commission of offences under PPERA are sufficiently strong, and the potential offences sufficiently serious, that there is a good case for the exercise by the Commission of its Schedule 19B investigative powers”.
Can the Minister indicate whether he is aware that the Electoral Commission is pursuing this particular line of investigation and, if and when it does, will he give the House an assurance that, if requested, the Government will ensure that it has sufficient resources to do so?
Lord Young of Cookham
On the question of resources for the Electoral Commission, it is answerable to the other place. There is the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission, as the noble Lord will know. I am not aware of any dispute about resources, and I am not aware of the Electoral Commissioner having asked for any more resources. If, at the end of the inquiry, which the noble Lord will know is going on into allegations of underdeclaration during the referendum campaign, the Electoral Commission feels that it needs more powers, the Government are indeed in listening mode.
Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]
Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts(8 years, 11 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)
My Lords, this is an amendment to Clause 30, which in effect will require certain individuals with annuities valued above a threshold to take advice before selling an annuity on the secondary market. Clause 30(3) gives the Treasury the power to make regulations to exempt some individuals from mandatory advice. The amendment changes the nature of that power so that the regulations are made under the affirmative, rather than the negative, parliamentary procedure.
On Report, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee recommended that the power to exempt some individuals from mandatory advice should be subject to the affirmative procedure. The Government agree that this is an important part of the consumer support package and that your Lordships should have the opportunity to debate this issue before it is set in legislation. That is why an amendment is being brought forward to change the power so that it is subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.
Along with the power to specify certain individuals who will be exempt from the advice requirement, Clause 30 gives the Treasury the power to specify which annuities will be subject to the advice requirement, including the specification of any threshold annuity value, and a further power to specify what type of advice individuals must have received. Ahead of laying the appropriate secondary legislation, the Government will be consulting later in the year on our proposals for the details of the advice requirement allowed for in these delegated powers. I beg to move.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
My Lords, I had not at all intended to intervene until the Minister mentioned the affirmative resolution procedure, which of course means that the order will come to your Lordships’ House for approval. Does the Minister really mean that—and, if he seeks the approval of the House, is he willing to accept that the House might not approve it?
Lord Bridges of Headley
My Lords, I am sure that the Government will see sense and will wish to acknowledge the views of the House.
Deregulation Bill
Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Deregulation Bill
Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts(9 years, 10 months ago)
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The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Sharkey for moving this amendment. As the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, said, my noble friend has indefatigably pursued this issue since beginning his membership of the Joint Committee. Like the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the committee’s work on the whole range of the Bill. I have been involved in only small parts of the House’s consideration of the Bill, but it is evident that the areas that I dealt with in Committee reflected the continuing interest of noble Lords who served on that committee.
With regard to this part of the Bill, the most controversial element of the original draft Bill concerned the more general order-making powers for the Secretary of State. As a result of the committee’s deliberations and recommendations, those powers were removed from the Bill as introduced into the other place.
I hope that I will have more information on the dogs issue before I sit down, but what I can say to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, now is that, following our debates in Committee, I did have a meeting with the noble Lord, Lord Trees. It is certainly my recollection that there is to be a consultation. If I can give fuller chapter and verse before I conclude, I will happily do so.
As my noble friend has indicated, Amendment 41 seeks to add conditions before the various items and provisions set out in Schedule 21 can be repealed or revoked. The main condition, as he indicated, is the need for the Secretary of State to ask the law commissions to review the legislation to be removed by these provisions and to report on whether the legislation to be removed has practical use, following which only those confirmed as redundant could be commenced. Perhaps I may say that the Government see the work of the law commissions as absolutely vital in keeping the law under review and recommending reform where it is needed. However, it is important to put this into context by saying that the statute law repeals work is just a small part of the overall work that is done by the commissions. The Government themselves have an important role to play in updating and tidying up both primary and secondary legislation as they develop policies and make new law. This is the role that they have exercised in relation to Schedule 21. If this work did not take place, the statute book would quickly become very unclear, inaccessible and outdated. There would also be an increase in the time and costs for those who use the law and an increase in the risk of their being misled by redundant legislation masquerading as live law.
If one reflects on this, one sees that in almost every piece of legislation there are repeals which the Government invite Parliament to approve. I was just flicking through the current Bill, and I think I am right in saying that, in Schedule 18, there are omissions from the Licensing Act 2003. Is the principle in the amendment that, before there can be any repeal of primary legislation, the Law Commission has to establish whether, because of what else is occurring in its place, it is no longer of any use? I do not know whether anyone has asked the Law Commission whether it sees that as an important part of its additional workload. To be consistent, the principle would have to be that any consequential repeals under general provisions in a Bill may well have to be referred. I am sure that that is not what my noble friend is proposing, but it is, by extension, the implication of what he is arguing here.
The law commissions were not established in order to replace the Government’s role in this area. The law commissions and the Government both have a valuable contribution to make to legislative housekeeping. Would requesting the law commissions to review legislation listed in Schedule 21 be the best use of their resources? I submit to your Lordships’ House that it would not, for two reasons.
First, we would be requesting the law commissions to duplicate the work already undertaken by government departments, because the actual technical work carried out by lawyers in departments and within the law commissions would be very much the same. The only difference in the general approach is that the law commissions would then conduct an open consultation, whereas government takes a more proportionate approach and tries to identify persons or organisations who would appear to have an interest in the proposal.
Secondly, in practice, the law commissions invite government departments to comment on repeal candidates, as departments have a responsibility for the legislation and policy area in question, as well, of course, as having specific inside knowledge and, no doubt, very good contacts with the various stakeholders and interested bodies. If the law commissions did undertake a review on Schedule 21, then departments which have already determined that the legislation no longer has a practical use would become key consultees in confirming whether the legislation no longer has a practical use. That does not seem to be a useful operation or a good use of resources.
My noble friend asked why the Schedule 21 items should not be referred to the law commissions. As I have indicated, Schedule 21 includes the sorts of items which departments routinely repeal and revoke as part of their legislative housekeeping roles. That complements the law commissions’ repeal work. Schedule 21 also includes secondary as well as primary legislation, while the law commissions’ repeal work has, hitherto, concerned primary legislation.
My noble friend also mentioned the Red Tape Challenge and suggested that items were chosen for political reasons. I accept that there is a political drive to try to tidy up the statute book and to do what we are doing in this Bill and have sensible deregulation but the point is—the heading of the schedule says as much—that these are provisions that are no longer of practical use. This sort of tidying up is an ordinary and useful part of the Government’s work.
When my noble friend proposed a very similar, although not identical, amendment in Committee, I argued that there would be no requirement for the law commissions to report on the legislation contained in Schedule 21, with the result that the obsolete law could simply remain on the statute book. I note that my noble friend has attempted to address this point by introducing proposed new subsection (7), but I have some difficulty in following the pattern through. The amendment requires only that a request be made by the Secretary of State to the law commissions to report on whether the provisions are redundant. The law commissions would in turn accept or decline the request.
If the intent is to provide a safeguard, then I am not quite sure that that will be carried out. If the law commissions either decline the request or fail to report to Parliament on the provisions within 12 months—and no doubt if they decline the request, Parliament will still have to wait for 12 months—the schedule will then simply be commenced. It is unclear exactly when the provisions are to be commenced if a request is accepted and the law commissions report to Parliament that the provisions are redundant. There does not seem to be a very clear way in which these provisions would be commenced.
My noble friend also referred to evidence and consultation, and he acknowledged the work that had been done by officials in going through all the paragraphs in Schedule 21 and indicating why they were there—whether they were redundant, had expired, had served their purpose, had been superseded by other legislation or were no longer relevant because they related to an activity that was no longer taking place. It is difficult to see what more evidence could be needed. For example, in paragraph 7, we believe that the provisions that have been repealed in the Industry Act 1972 no longer serve their purpose and are no longer relevant. That is because the Shipbuilding Industry Board (Dissolution Provisions) Order is not relevant because the board itself has been dissolved. I am not sure what more evidence you can actually get than the fact that the board no longer exists. If it does not exist, whom does my noble friend think we should be consulting? That is the nature of many of these provisions, such as paragraphs 10 to 12, covering the British Steel Act 1988. What was British Steel plc is now wholly owned by Tata Steel, so the Government’s shareholding provisions are redundant. Paragraph 12 repeals a saving provision for four sets of historic iron and steel pension regulations that are now redundant and no longer have any practical effect. That is the nature of these provisions.
Amendment 42 gives further illustration. My noble friend indicated that it had been brought in very late but it relates to three instruments that were identified as being spent during the rail theme of the Red Tape Challenge. The Department for Transport had originally believed that the revocation could be delivered by secondary legislation. However, legal investigation during the drafting of the revocation instrument—and this underlines the thoroughness with which officials go through these matters—identified vires issues which meant that this could proceed only through primary legislation. A number of similar instruments have already been included in the schedule. That is the reason for the proposed insertion into the Bill at this stage.
I will explain. The Railways Act 1993 (Extinguishment of Relevant Loans) (Railtrack plc) Order 1996 extinguished the liabilities of Railtrack plc in respect of specified loans. These loans were initially made to the British Railways Board and subsequently transferred to Railtrack plc as part of the privatisation of the railways. As many noble Lords will recall, Railtrack plc was placed into railway administration in October 2001 and acquired by Network Rail in 2002. The Railtrack Group PLC (Target Investment Limit) Order 1996 fixed, for the first time, the target investment for the Government’s shareholding in Railtrack Group plc. That limit was expressed as a proportion of the voting rights exercisable in all circumstances at general meetings of Railtrack plc. Following the entry into administration of Railtrack plc, Railtrack Group plc was placed into members’ voluntary liquidation in October 2002 and finally dissolved in June 2010. Railtrack Group plc no longer exists and that is the essence of why we are putting these kinds of provisions in.
When I sat on the Benches opposite, both here and in the other place, I was on the receiving end of technical problems with amendments standing in the way, but I think that in this case there are serious technical deficiencies, not least because I am still not certain how, even if a clean bill of health was returned by the law commissions, these provisions would come into effect. More relevantly, it is part of the work of government to keep the statute book in a tidy and orderly fashion. Thorough work has been done. It was presented initially to the Joint Committee and subsequently went through both Houses. It is on the basis of not wanting to duplicate work that has already been done, and of trying to avoid a somewhat odd situation where the law commissions would consult government departments to see whether they agreed that these matters were no longer of practical use when in fact the only reason they would be consulting was because the government departments had said they would no longer be of practical use, that I do not believe it is a good use of resources.
Before I sit down, Defra officials have confirmed that before commencing the particular repeals with regard to the Breeding of Dogs Act, there will be consultation as the issue generates a considerable amount of interest, as the noble Lord indicated. I urge my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Sharkey
I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. Earlier in the afternoon, I heard that the Government had referred the laws on busking to the law commissions. When I heard that, my hopes rose, but, clearly, that was the limit of their willingness to refer things to the law commissions.
Having listened carefully to the Minister, I am not quite sure that we were talking about the same thing at times. The point is not that the Government should not repeal legislation; of course they should. The point is that Parliament should be able to scrutinise proposed repeals. The fact is that some of the repeals that are proposed will need scrutiny. The Government were able to trot out examples such as laws on the keeping of pigs or the flying of kites—the usual stuff that, on inspection, appears to be safe to repeal—but they did not mention, for example, item 18, which is the Nuclear Industry (Finance) Act and the implications of that, and the consultations that went on.
As for the duplication of work by government departments and the law commissions, it seems entirely clear that the existing work by the departments will have the effect of speeding the review by the law commissions. It will be extremely helpful to the law commissions to have transparent access to the inner workings of the departments when they make these assessments.
The problem is that it is now very late. If we were working on normal time, it would now be 10 o’clock or so. At this point, with the Chamber fairly empty and the clock registering the normal weekday equivalent of 10 o’clock or quarter past, I feel with some regret that it would be inappropriate at this stage to divide the House.
I end by saying that I believe strongly that Parliament in general should be given every opportunity to examine in a timely way repeals proposed by the Executive. I regret that on this occasion it will not be possible. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Deregulation Bill
Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts(10 years, 1 month ago)
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The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Sharkey for moving his amendment and allowing us to have this opportunity to discuss Clause 82 and Schedule 20, which provide for a number of legislative measures to be repealed or revoked. I am grateful to the noble Lords who have taken part. I get the general message and I hope that I can respond to the points that have been made.
The conditions that are proposed in my noble friend’s amendment would include the need for the Law Commissions of Scotland and of England and Wales—to report, before commencement, on whether or not the legislation to be removed still has a practical use. The amendment, as my noble friend would acknowledge, does not require the Law Commissions to undertake this work. Rather, it indicates that it would not be possible to move forward with regard to the repeal or removal of these provisions from the statute book until such time as the Law Commissions had reported on the legislation contained in Schedule 20. In the absence of any report from the Law Commissions, the obsolete law would simply remain on the statute book.
I hope that there is common ground in this Committee that it is a worthwhile objective to make the statute book simpler to use for practitioners and those in different walks of life when they run up against the law. It is better if it is easier to navigate for the end users of the law. My noble friend makes the point, which I agree with, that the Law Commissions do not have a political agenda. While it is true that many of the provisions in the schedule are a product of the Red Tape Challenge in the sense that they come from a political origin, the purpose of this is to repeal redundant legislation and legislation that is no longer of practical use. The selection of this particular obsolete legislative list may have had a political element in its origin, but in the end the purpose is to ensure that redundant legislation is not on the statute book. Again, I hope that that is a politically neutral statement to make and something that we can all subscribe to.
As my noble friend fairly observed, and as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, acknowledged, there are clauses that caused considerable offence to the Joint Committee. The Government have accepted that particular recommendation. Those clauses that contained future order-making powers for pieces of legislation that were considered to be redundant were removed. The argument that was made by my noble friend and by the noble Lords, Lord Rooker and Lord Stevenson, would have had greater force if the Government were still trying to defend an order-making position. That is not the case. We took into account the evidence submitted during pre-legislative scrutiny and in the Joint Committee’s recommendations, and the Government removed this power from the Bill.
The origin of this amendment is, of course, that the Joint Committee also recommended that the various items contained in Schedule 16—I think it was at that time—should be referred to the Law Commissions for confirmation that they were indeed no longer of practical use. As has already been alluded to by my noble friend, the Government did not agree with this recommendation. However, I begin by pointing out that one of the main criticisms of the order-making power was that there was an inappropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny.
This schedule, both in the form that it is in today and in its original form, has gone through pre-legislative scrutiny. I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, says—that he did not think that it was an adequate or long enough opportunity—but it has had pre-legislative scrutiny and Parliament has considered the Bill up to this point, and no evidence has been brought forward that the items contained within it are not redundant. There is an important exception to that, which we are about to debate in the upcoming group of amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Grantchester and Lord Trees, where there was an issue identified by those with a particular interest in dog breeding, and we as a Committee will have an opportunity to consider this.
As the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, said, the report and legislation that comes forward from the Law Commissions takes about three minutes of parliamentary time. This—particularly these provisions—has taken up far more than three minutes of parliamentary time. That is not the point that I wanted to make. It is not just that Parliament has had the opportunity; it is that—and we know this through all the work that we do in Parliament, not just in this Bill but in a whole host of Bills—we are informed in our debates by a whole host of outside bodies that are more than happy to give us the benefit of their experience, expertise and knowledge on these issues.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred to paragraphs 14 and 15 regarding the Atomic Energy Act 1946. In the 31 years since I was first elected as a Member of Parliament, I have never known the nuclear industry to be backward in coming forward if it thought there was a problem with something that Parliament was about to propose. There was also a reference to paragraph 28, omitting Section 10 of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1992, which requires that a report on the operation of the Act be laid before Parliament within the period of six months beginning 1 January 1997. Clearly that had to be done by 1997. Having represented for 24 years, both in the other place and in the Scottish Parliament, a constituency that had very strong fishing industry interests, I make the point that the fishing industry was never slow in coming forward either. It had very good people working for it who would spot important issues. With the exception of the amendment that we are about to come on to, in the whole time that these measures have been out there—since, I think, the summer of 2013—no interested bodies have come forward and said that these pieces of legislation still have a purpose and should be kept on the statute book.
I believe that good housekeeping of the statute book is good governance. When we bring forward legislation in the normal course of events, a Bill often has a schedule attached to it that will have repeals. They have never gone anywhere near the Law Commissions, unless it happens to be one of the Law Commissions Bills, which now use the fast-track procedure. It is quite usual for Bills to have a whole series of amendments and repeals because they are no longer going to be of any use, given the new legislation that is coming through. What we are doing here is bringing together a number that one might say were not picked up at the time when other pieces of legislation were brought forward. Nevertheless, Parliament has been invited to accept, as we do on many other occasions, that they will no longer be useful.
Although it is true that some of the pieces of primary legislation contained here are repeal candidates for one of the Law Commissions’ Statute Law (Repeals) Bills, I also make three particular points. The Law Commissions tend to focus their resources on certain themes for each repeals Bill. If a repeal candidate does not fit within the theme of a Bill, it is uncertain whether it would be accepted by the Law Commissions for inclusion. The Law Commissions confine their repeals work to primary legislation. A number of the paragraphs—I think that my noble friend said that there were eight—relate to secondary legislation, which has not historically been within the purview of the Law Commissions when they do repeals work. Although secondary legislation can be revoked using the parent Act, this Bill provides an ideal vehicle to revoke these regulations in an efficient manner.
Secondly, many of the provisions contained within the schedule came out of the Red Tape Challenge. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, clearly made the point that none of these had in the past been referred to the Law Commissions. I do not think that we are running away from the fact that many of them do come out of the Red Tape Challenge. However, many of the themes were launched after the Law Commission for England and Wales invited submissions from government departments in June 2011 on what should be included in what was its last statute law repeals report, published in April 2012.
The next repeals Bill will not be introduced until 2016, and it is my understanding that the focus of the Law Commission’s repeals work will be on laws relating to overseas territories and churches. The Government do not see why the removal of redundant legislation should wait when the Bill that we have before us provides a legislative vehicle for doing so.
Finally, it is worth noting that government departments are key consultees for the Law Commission in seeking to make these kinds of repeals. As the Law Commission for England and Wales states on its website:
“Sometimes it is impossible to tell whether a provision is repealable without factual information that is not readily ascertainable without ‘inside’ knowledge of a Department or other organisation”.
I know that my noble friend said that the Government were answering a question that they were not asked but it is important to make it clear that this is not arbitrary work and that we have within the departments a considerable amount of expertise. One of the examples that was given in, I think, the response to the Joint Committee’s report is in this Bill. I think that it was one of the other clauses which drew the short straw in having to deal with part 1 of Schedule 6 to this Bill. It repeals the Deeds of Arrangement Act 1914 as part of a package of insolvency measures. Research, conducted by departmental lawyers, indicated that there was still one person who had a deed of arrangement under the 1914 Act, and a decision was made to include a special saving provision in paragraph 3 of Schedule 6.
The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, was not here to move his Amendment 90 but my noble friend Lord Sharkey referred to paragraph 40, which relates to Section 13 of the Defamation Act. I accept and acknowledge that it is not what I would call a redundant provision; it can be argued that it continues to have legal effect. However, the position is that it was a non-government amendment—one that was accepted by the Government due to a previous commitment to remove Section 13 of the Defamation Act when an ideal legislative opportunity presented itself. I think that, left to the Government’s own devices, it would not have appeared in Schedule 20, but that is where it was moved and that amendment was accepted by the House authorities as the case was made that it fitted within the scope of the Bill. That is why it finds itself here and I think that generally it is a provision that is much welcomed. In those circumstances, I invite my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rooker
What is the Minister’s answer to his noble friend Lord Skelmersdale?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I do not think that there is a perfect answer to the earliest one being in the 19th century. If the purpose of this is to try to remove redundant legislation, it can be redundant if it no longer serves any useful purpose. An example is the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1992, which is very recent—indeed, I remember taking part in the debates on the Bill that became that Act in the other place. But the purpose of this provision is to remove from the statute book measures which, for example, may have expired or served their purpose, which have been superseded by other legislation or which are simply no longer relevant because they relate to an activity that no longer takes place. I accept that flying kites still takes place, but it takes place in a legitimate way. The fact that there was no provision identified prior to the 19th century I do not think in any way detracts from the ones which have been included, which I would certainly argue that Parliament has had a proper opportunity to consider.
Lord Skelmersdale
Surely the noble and learned Lord will appreciate that the statute book is far, far too long. Therefore, if you can get rid of legislation from between the 14th century and the 19th century, somebody ought to jolly well have a go at it.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am in sympathy with what my noble friend says: the statute book is far, far too long. There is probably someone behind me sweating as I say this but I am sure that if he has candidates that he wants to bring forward to addend rather than amend Schedule 20 before Report stage, and if he gives us sufficient time, they could be looked at to see whether they would be worthy of inclusion.
Lord Sharkey
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and to the Minister for his reply, apart from his reply to my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale in the last sentence. It is the case, despite the Minister’s assertions, that the items in Schedule 20 have not really been subject to scrutiny in any meaningful sense. I agree, of course, that we have now taken up more than three minutes of parliamentary time by discussing the items in Schedule 20, but we have not actually discussed or examined the items themselves in any detail. What we have discussed is whether they should be there in the first place, which is of course not the same thing.
The argument that interested parties essentially would have complained if they had found any faults—a kind of way of saying “The dog did not bark, so clearly these are okay”—makes me wonder, in a way, why we need any kind of parliamentary scrutiny or scrutiny by the Law Commission at all. We could just say “The dog has barked” or not and carry on that way. I do not think that that would work. On waiting for interested dogs—or interested parties—to bark there are, of course, interested parties but the difference between them and the Law Commission is that the Law Commission is precisely not an interested party.
In closing, there are some questions that the Minister did not answer. Perhaps I could persuade him to write to me, in particular about departmental processes, which are at the heart of the matter, the processes that these proposals have gone through and how those processes in fact impact with the processes that the Law Commission itself would use. It would be very helpful to know how those compared.
The real question, however, and I do not think that the Minister touched on this at all, is one that I asked twice, which is: “Why the rush?”. I do not understand why we have to rush this when we know that the Law Commissions could do this in between four and 12 months.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. First, the amendment does not make any requirement on the Law Commissions to do this, so there is no guarantee that it will be done within the next six to 12 months. Secondly, these are matters which have been out in the public domain since the summer of 2013. By the time that this Bill proceeds to Royal Assent, it will be the best part of 18 months, if not longer. I do not consider that a rush.
Lord Sharkey
To answer my noble and learned friend’s first point, I will certainly alter the amendment to make sure that the Law Commissions are required to do it in the appropriate time, and I am grateful for that advice. I do not propose to go any further on the issue of rush because I do not think that our minds are meeting on this. I meant the rush to do it without certification, not just getting it done. That seems to me the heart of the matter. Given that we are in Grand Committee, I beg leave to withdraw and may return to this at a later stage.
“Highways (Assessment of Environmental Effects) Regulations 28A The following Regulations are revoked—
(a) the Highways (Assessment of Environmental Effects) Regulations 1988 (S.I. 1988/1241);(b) the Highways (Assessment of Environmental Effects) Regulations 1994 (S.I. 1994/1002).”
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, Amendments 91 and 92 add to Schedule 20, which—as we have just debated—makes provision for legislation that is no longer of practical use to be removed. I will start with Amendment 91. Both the 1988 and the 1994 Highways (Assessment of Environmental Effects) Regulations inserted a new Part 5A (Environmental Impact Assessments) into the Highways Act 1980. These provisions have now been superseded by the Highways (Assessment of Environmental Effects) Regulations 1999, which inserted a replacement Part 5A.
Amendment 92 seeks to repeal the Sea Fisheries Act 1868, the Fisheries Act 1891 and the British Fishing Boats Act 1983 in their entirety. The 1868 Act implemented a fisheries agreement between the United Kingdom and France and amended UK law on sea fisheries. Much of the Act has already been repealed and the remaining provisions relate to requirements on the carriage of fishing vessel registration documents and to the enforcement of those requirements. Such requirements are now set out in directly applicable provisions in European Union law. The Fisheries Act 1891 implemented the International Declaration on North Sea Fisheries, made by the United Kingdom and Belgium, and amended UK law on sea fisheries and on salmon and freshwater fisheries. Again, much of the Act has already been repealed and its extant provisions relate principally to the declaration. The subject matter of the declaration is now regulated by EU law, under the common fisheries policy, which is implemented other than under this Act.
The British Fishing Boats Act 1983 prohibits the fishing for and trans-shipment of sea fish by or from British fishing boats, unless those boats satisfy conditions relating to the nationality of the crew prescribed by order. The British Fishing Boats Order 1983 requires at least 75% of the members of the crew to be British citizens or other EU nationals. The Act and the order are no longer enforced and nationality requirements are set out instead in immigration legislation.
As the Committee will know, fisheries is now largely a devolved matter for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and the Government are working with the devolved Administrations to secure legislative consent Motions to repeal these three Acts. I beg to move.
“Sea Fisheries Act 1868 and other fisheries legislation28B The following Acts are repealed—
(a) the Sea Fisheries Act 1868, including so far as it extends outside the United Kingdom by virtue of section 70 of that Act;(b) the Fisheries Act 1891;(c) the British Fishing Boats Act 1983, including so far as it extends outside the United Kingdom by virtue of an Order in Council under section 10 of that Act.28C (1) The following amendments are made in consequence of paragraph 28B.
(2) In the Fishery Limits Act 1976, in Schedule 2, omit paragraph 7.
(3) In the Debtors (Scotland) Act 1987, in Schedule 6, omit paragraph 24.
(4) In the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, in Schedule 13, omit paragraphs 2, 9 and 68.
(5) In the Statute Law (Repeals) Act 1998, in Schedule 2, omit paragraph 9.
(6) In the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, in Schedule 13, omit paragraph 67.”
Lord Trees
It might conceivably in the sense that breeders need to record the details of the sire as well as the bitch in the prescribed form. It could have an effect on the matter raised by the noble Lord. Clearly certain breeds are proscribed, so they would not—or should not—be used for breeding, and presumably would not be entered here. That may have some bearing on the matter. The primary concern is the exploitation of bitches in general and overbreeding because of the financial advantages.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for giving the Committee an opportunity to consider these important matters, and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, who brings considerable experience and expertise to such issues. I have a dog, but as it is in Scotland it will not be affected by paragraphs 31 or 32 of Schedule 20, covered by the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester.
I should say at the outset, and quite properly as I am sure the Committee would agree, that the welfare of dogs is vital. We have been described as a nation of dog lovers and we would want nothing less. I understand that the provision in paragraph 31 relates, as has been said, to questions of the keeping of records and does not impinge on other parts of the legislation dealing with welfare. Paragraph 32 is consequential on paragraph 31. That is an important concern to the noble Lord. There are many other provisions that seek to secure the welfare of dogs. I acknowledge from the concerns expressed, not least in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, that some of these records are important for welfare.
As has been identified, the underlying reason for including these paragraphs in the schedule is because most of the information held on paper records will, as from April 2016, be held on a microchip database. It is also the case that any information that is not held on a microchip database, and which a local authority considers a particular licensed dog breeding establishment should record, can be made an additional condition of the licence, so there is provision if there is concern about a particular breeding establishment. However, we recognise that the repeal of these paragraphs is not intended to commence until the microchipping is in place. The relevant commencement provisions are at Clause 90(2)(n). Subsection (2) states:
“The following provisions come into force at the end of the period of 2 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed”,
and receives Royal Assent.
Paragraphs 31, 32 and 37, the subject of the next amendment, are excluded from coming into effect after two months but rather, as I read it, will come into force on such a date as the Secretary of State may by statutory instrument appoint. There was concern about this being introduced before the microchipping provision. That will not be the case, but I can go further than that because the Government have been aware of some of the concerns and have decided to consult the key stakeholders on this issue. If there is enough evidence to support retaining the requirement for licensed dog breeders to keep records, the Government will not commence the repeals contained in paragraphs 31 and 32 of Schedule 20.
Lord Grantchester
Will the Minister clarify that the Clause 31 reference to Section 4(i) refers only to the identity of any dog and that there is nothing else involved, such that it entirely mirrors the provision that a microchip will provide?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I will be told by those sitting behind me if I am getting this wrong, but my understanding is that what is required under the 1999 regulations, which I assume are made under the registration provisions that we are talking about, is the name of the dog, the date of birth, the address, the breed, the description, the sale details, the weight of the dog, the mating date, the sire details and the number in the litter. The microchipping database covers all but four of these. The four it does not include are the weight of the dog, the mating date, the sire details and the number in the litter. I think that that is as full an answer as I can give the noble Lord.
Lord Grantchester
I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for being so helpful. I am very grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, in this short debate. I levied five charges in terms of anxiety and concern on this legislation and I have listened carefully to what the Minister said. I think it will need a period of reflection. Most notably, I ask him to provide details of the consultation exercise that has been conducted so that we can have a look at it before Report. Having said all that, I am very grateful that the noble and learned Lord is content that the border is secure in respect of dogs moving across jurisdictions and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Grantchester
This amendment removes paragraph 37 of Schedule 20 concerning the requirement for a dog to wear a collar with an identifying tag at sale under the provisions of the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999. This provision is also predicated on the successful introduction of microchipping. Many of the points mentioned in the previous amendment on dog breeding welfare are also relevant here concerning whether the future introduction of compulsory microchipping will necessarily be proven to render the various Acts’ provisions to be no longer necessary, bearing in mind the comments we have just exchanged concerning whether the exact provisions mirror the microchipping possibilities. Under the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999, which amends and extends the 1973 Act, a puppy may be sold directly to a future owner or, if to a third party, only if the owner possesses a pet shop licence.
A licensing officer can assess whether or not a breeder is meeting the conditions only if the details of the sale and the purchaser are recorded. The microchipping of breeding dogs and puppies does not enable checks on whether puppies have been sold by a breeder to dealers who do not have a pet shop licence. The information on a microchip, limited as it is, merely records hoped-for accuracy at the time of implant. Thereafter, any new keeper must ensure the records on the database are updated accordingly. I understand—although I have not studied this—that the requirements of the microchipping regulations that are shortly to be introduced will deem a dog to be not microchipped if these databases are not correctly updated. Surely, the successful working of this must be evidenced before this clause is implemented. In this regard, I am not referring just to the implementation of this Act after the regulations on microchipping but to a period of time to ascertain that this is all working smoothly.
I imagine that most people have very limited information on any tag on a collar: perhaps just the dog’s name and a phone number. This, at least, is likely to be up to date. If a dog becomes lost, then anyone who comes across the dog can ascertain the present owner—should the dog still have the collar, I grant you. Members of the public will not be able to read a microchip and take the initiative to reunite dog and owner, which can only increase the likelihood that people will deliver dogs to councils. Councils will find it increasingly burdensome to deal with the consequences of this. Does the Minister’s department intend to fund fully this new burden of looking after and aiding the identification of dogs and tracking their owners?
Of more significance, as I have alluded to, is the potential gap between the successful operation of microchipping of dogs and the removal of the requirements under paragraph 37. There should certainly be a much longer requirement for the new regulations to work through the likelihood of sales of dogs as they mature than there is in the prior amendment. I very much look forward to looking at the regulations concerning microchipping. I am certain that microchipping will improve the situation. However, the regulations cannot be seen to be the panacea that can allow these present provisions to be disregarded. They should continue to operate alongside the development of microchipping. I beg to move.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
Once again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for moving his amendment and raising an important issue. The amendment would have the effect of continuing to require licensed dog breeders to identify any dog which is sold to a licensed pet shop or Scottish rearing establishment with a tag or badge.
As has been acknowledged, the underlying reason for paragraph 37 is that from April 2016 all dogs will need to be identified with a microchip and therefore there will be no need for dogs sold from licensed dog breeding establishments to pet shops, or indeed to Scottish rearing establishments, to be identified by a tag or badge. It is important to make clear that there will still be a requirement for all dogs in public places to have an identifying badge. That requirement is not removed by this paragraph. It is considered appropriate to retain that, even after compulsory microchipping is introduced, because if a member of the public finds a dog loose in the street, they are not likely to have a scanner in their possession to know where to return the dog.
Because these repeals are not intended to commence two months after Royal Assent, but instead not until April 2016, when the microchipping provisions come in, the Government have decided to consult key stakeholders on this issue, as I indicated on the previous amendment. If there is enough evidence to support retaining the requirement for licensed dog breeders to identify any dogs sold to pet shops or Scottish rearing establishments with a tag or badge, it would not be our intention to commence the repeal contained in paragraph 37 of Schedule 20. Paragraph 37 is also omitted from the more general commencement with regard to Schedule 20.
I have no doubt—indeed of course the noble Lord has mentioned it—that points can be made during that consultation about, as he indicated, the gap in time between microchipping becoming a requirement and seeing how it works in practice. Obviously, it will also be an opportunity to have proper scrutiny of the microchipping regulations, which I think he referred to in his earlier amendment.
Again, I just repeat that there will be a consultation and the responses to that consultation will be weighed up with regard to the very specific point about the tagging badges when licensed dog breeders pass on dogs to pet shops or Scottish rearing establishments. In these circumstances, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Grantchester
I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that dogs will still be required to wear an identity tag and that a lot of the concerns on that score can be laid to rest. I am grateful that he has further clarified, under this amendment, that consultation is proceeding with necessary stakeholders on the introduction of these provisions. With that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Rooker
I have one last, general question on this, which comes as a result of listening to these last two debates. Can the Minister give a commitment that the Government will not bring any new material forward for Schedule 20 at further stages of the Bill?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
As I am not the Minister in charge of the Bill, I am not sure I can give that commitment and am wary of doing it, having just invited the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, perhaps to suggest candidates—although I did qualify that invitation by saying that he should give plenty of time so they could be properly looked at and considered.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I can say that it is not our intention. We will take the warning.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am advised that it is not the Government’s intention to bring forward further pieces of legislation into this. We take heed of the warning that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has very effectively delivered.
Lord Rooker
It is not a warning; it is just the fact that it is quite clear that people inside the government machine—I do not blame them—are now looking at what is going to be changing in the future that will make legislation redundant before the action takes place. This is a very suitable vehicle for piling other stuff in, which is clearly the implication of what we have just heard about dog chipping. It is something that is coming in the future that will require this change—here is a nice vehicle. I just wonder what else is around. It would be very unwise from a parliamentary scrutiny point of view.