Deregulation Bill

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Tuesday 18th November 2014 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Grantchester]

92A: Schedule 20, page 201, line 29, leave out paragraphs 31 and 32

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a dairy farmer, but I no longer have a dog and do not use a dog on the farm. Paragraphs 31 and 32, to which these amendments refer, arise from Part 6 of Schedule 20, “Animals and Food”. Schedule 20 is entitled,

“Legislation no longer of practical use”.

These paragraphs state that under the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 and the consequential Breeding and Sales of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999, and their regulations, a local authority need no longer have regard to requiring dog-breeding records to be kept when granting a dog-breeding licence.

When introduced in the Commons stages of the Bill, it was explained that these requirements, to which we shall come shortly, will no longer be required because as from 6 April 2016 all dogs will need to be identified with a microchip. First, however, the legislation cannot be said to be no longer of practical use. The Microchipping of Dogs (England) Regulations 2014 have yet to be examined in either House; I have yet to examine the regulations in detail. Are they the silver bullet to negate the need for the requirement to keep records? Can the Minister guarantee that the Microchipping of Dogs (England) Regulations will be right first time, so that we do not need a period of time to determine from evidence that they are working effectively without further adjustment? Would the Minister not agree that these paragraphs are being introduced prematurely? They give the impression that the Minister’s department was given a target of provisions to be cast aside into this Bill as a vehicle as it passed by. How foolproof the microchipping regulations are going to be needs to be determined before any consequential action is taken.

Secondly, the Committee can ask these questions because the information required to be kept by the provisions of the Acts already stated is not the same information required to be kept on a microchip. I hasten to add that we on these Benches are greatly in favour of the microchipping of dogs, but that is about identity, whereas the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 is concerned with the welfare of breeding dogs. Under the Act, a licensed dog breeder must ensure suitable accommodation, exercise facilities and adequate provision to prevent the spread of disease. There are also other provisions. Under the 1999 Act, accurate records must be kept in the prescribed form and be available for inspection concerning the mating of dogs, number of litters and so on. That information is entirely different from the information that will be recorded on microchips and, crucially, it is in a standard format that is convenient for licensing authorities. By contrast, the details on a microchip will be restricted to the name and address of the owner at the time of microchipping; the name of the dog; and its breed, colour, gender and date of birth. Can the Minister confirm that Paragraphs 31 and 32 categorically do not affect the welfare elements in the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 and that the prescribed form of information will still be required?

Thirdly, the welfare of dogs is an important matter of concern to many people and organisations. I have received expressions of concern from the Advisory Council on Welfare Issues of Dog Breeding, the British Veterinary Association and CARIAD—Care and Respect Includes All Dogs. The Minister’s department has recently published updated guidance to support local authorities in the interpretation of the dog-breeding regulations, particularly the Breeding of Dogs Acts 1973 and 1991 and the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999. That has been produced in conjunction with the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health, the Kennel Club, the RSPCA and the Dogs Trust. Indeed, the Government commissioned the independent inquiry on dog breeding and welfare standards by Professor Sir Patrick Bateson, which also supported those concerns. The Local Government Association has also written to state that it does not support the paragraphs.

Fourthly, the Government do not appear to have conducted consultation on the issue. Consultation is accepted as necessary for new legislative proposals, but does it not also need to be carried out on deregulation? Your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee will be particularly concerned to ensure that there has been adequate and meaningful consultation on the future microchipping statutory instrument. Will it be concerned about the removal of requirements of the Acts concerning dog breeding? Perhaps the Minister can explain the extent of any consultation undertaken and its relevance in regard to my earlier remarks concerning the welfare issues in the dog-breeding Acts.

Lastly, there is concern that a period may open up between the enactment of the Bill and the operations of the provisions on microchipping. At the very least, the paragraphs need a guarantee that they will not become operable before the necessary databases, believed to be increasing to six, are all fully tested and successful in the integration of records from microchipping. Enforcement authorities could be left without any method by which they could trace dogs, assess the welfare of breeding dogs or protect other dogs and the public from the risk of the spread of disease or the trafficking of illegal dogs.

Those are grave charges against the introduction of these provisions into the Bill. I ask the Minister in his reply to this probing amendment to clarify that these paragraphs do not delete the full panoply of requirements concerning the issuing of dog-breeding licences by local authorities. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for giving the Committee an opportunity to consider these important matters, and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, who brings considerable experience and expertise to such issues. I have a dog, but as it is in Scotland it will not be affected by paragraphs 31 or 32 of Schedule 20, covered by the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester.

I should say at the outset, and quite properly as I am sure the Committee would agree, that the welfare of dogs is vital. We have been described as a nation of dog lovers and we would want nothing less. I understand that the provision in paragraph 31 relates, as has been said, to questions of the keeping of records and does not impinge on other parts of the legislation dealing with welfare. Paragraph 32 is consequential on paragraph 31. That is an important concern to the noble Lord. There are many other provisions that seek to secure the welfare of dogs. I acknowledge from the concerns expressed, not least in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, that some of these records are important for welfare.

As has been identified, the underlying reason for including these paragraphs in the schedule is because most of the information held on paper records will, as from April 2016, be held on a microchip database. It is also the case that any information that is not held on a microchip database, and which a local authority considers a particular licensed dog breeding establishment should record, can be made an additional condition of the licence, so there is provision if there is concern about a particular breeding establishment. However, we recognise that the repeal of these paragraphs is not intended to commence until the microchipping is in place. The relevant commencement provisions are at Clause 90(2)(n). Subsection (2) states:

“The following provisions come into force at the end of the period of 2 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed”,

and receives Royal Assent.

Paragraphs 31, 32 and 37, the subject of the next amendment, are excluded from coming into effect after two months but rather, as I read it, will come into force on such a date as the Secretary of State may by statutory instrument appoint. There was concern about this being introduced before the microchipping provision. That will not be the case, but I can go further than that because the Government have been aware of some of the concerns and have decided to consult the key stakeholders on this issue. If there is enough evidence to support retaining the requirement for licensed dog breeders to keep records, the Government will not commence the repeals contained in paragraphs 31 and 32 of Schedule 20.

[Lord Grantchester]

Will the Minister clarify that the Clause 31 reference to Section 4(i) refers only to the identity of any dog and that there is nothing else involved, such that it entirely mirrors the provision that a microchip will provide?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I will be told by those sitting behind me if I am getting this wrong, but my understanding is that what is required under the 1999 regulations, which I assume are made under the registration provisions that we are talking about, is the name of the dog, the date of birth, the address, the breed, the description, the sale details, the weight of the dog, the mating date, the sire details and the number in the litter. The microchipping database covers all but four of these. The four it does not include are the weight of the dog, the mating date, the sire details and the number in the litter. I think that that is as full an answer as I can give the noble Lord.

[Lord Grantchester]

I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for being so helpful. I am very grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, in this short debate. I levied five charges in terms of anxiety and concern on this legislation and I have listened carefully to what the Minister said. I think it will need a period of reflection. Most notably, I ask him to provide details of the consultation exercise that has been conducted so that we can have a look at it before Report. Having said all that, I am very grateful that the noble and learned Lord is content that the border is secure in respect of dogs moving across jurisdictions and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 92A withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Grantchester]

92B: Schedule 20, page 202, line 12, leave out paragraph 37

[Lord Grantchester]

This amendment removes paragraph 37 of Schedule 20 concerning the requirement for a dog to wear a collar with an identifying tag at sale under the provisions of the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999. This provision is also predicated on the successful introduction of microchipping. Many of the points mentioned in the previous amendment on dog breeding welfare are also relevant here concerning whether the future introduction of compulsory microchipping will necessarily be proven to render the various Acts’ provisions to be no longer necessary, bearing in mind the comments we have just exchanged concerning whether the exact provisions mirror the microchipping possibilities. Under the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999, which amends and extends the 1973 Act, a puppy may be sold directly to a future owner or, if to a third party, only if the owner possesses a pet shop licence.

A licensing officer can assess whether or not a breeder is meeting the conditions only if the details of the sale and the purchaser are recorded. The microchipping of breeding dogs and puppies does not enable checks on whether puppies have been sold by a breeder to dealers who do not have a pet shop licence. The information on a microchip, limited as it is, merely records hoped-for accuracy at the time of implant. Thereafter, any new keeper must ensure the records on the database are updated accordingly. I understand—although I have not studied this—that the requirements of the microchipping regulations that are shortly to be introduced will deem a dog to be not microchipped if these databases are not correctly updated. Surely, the successful working of this must be evidenced before this clause is implemented. In this regard, I am not referring just to the implementation of this Act after the regulations on microchipping but to a period of time to ascertain that this is all working smoothly.

I imagine that most people have very limited information on any tag on a collar: perhaps just the dog’s name and a phone number. This, at least, is likely to be up to date. If a dog becomes lost, then anyone who comes across the dog can ascertain the present owner—should the dog still have the collar, I grant you. Members of the public will not be able to read a microchip and take the initiative to reunite dog and owner, which can only increase the likelihood that people will deliver dogs to councils. Councils will find it increasingly burdensome to deal with the consequences of this. Does the Minister’s department intend to fund fully this new burden of looking after and aiding the identification of dogs and tracking their owners?

Of more significance, as I have alluded to, is the potential gap between the successful operation of microchipping of dogs and the removal of the requirements under paragraph 37. There should certainly be a much longer requirement for the new regulations to work through the likelihood of sales of dogs as they mature than there is in the prior amendment. I very much look forward to looking at the regulations concerning microchipping. I am certain that microchipping will improve the situation. However, the regulations cannot be seen to be the panacea that can allow these present provisions to be disregarded. They should continue to operate alongside the development of microchipping. I beg to move.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Once again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for moving his amendment and raising an important issue. The amendment would have the effect of continuing to require licensed dog breeders to identify any dog which is sold to a licensed pet shop or Scottish rearing establishment with a tag or badge.

As has been acknowledged, the underlying reason for paragraph 37 is that from April 2016 all dogs will need to be identified with a microchip and therefore there will be no need for dogs sold from licensed dog breeding establishments to pet shops, or indeed to Scottish rearing establishments, to be identified by a tag or badge. It is important to make clear that there will still be a requirement for all dogs in public places to have an identifying badge. That requirement is not removed by this paragraph. It is considered appropriate to retain that, even after compulsory microchipping is introduced, because if a member of the public finds a dog loose in the street, they are not likely to have a scanner in their possession to know where to return the dog.

Because these repeals are not intended to commence two months after Royal Assent, but instead not until April 2016, when the microchipping provisions come in, the Government have decided to consult key stakeholders on this issue, as I indicated on the previous amendment. If there is enough evidence to support retaining the requirement for licensed dog breeders to identify any dogs sold to pet shops or Scottish rearing establishments with a tag or badge, it would not be our intention to commence the repeal contained in paragraph 37 of Schedule 20. Paragraph 37 is also omitted from the more general commencement with regard to Schedule 20.

I have no doubt—indeed of course the noble Lord has mentioned it—that points can be made during that consultation about, as he indicated, the gap in time between microchipping becoming a requirement and seeing how it works in practice. Obviously, it will also be an opportunity to have proper scrutiny of the microchipping regulations, which I think he referred to in his earlier amendment.

Again, I just repeat that there will be a consultation and the responses to that consultation will be weighed up with regard to the very specific point about the tagging badges when licensed dog breeders pass on dogs to pet shops or Scottish rearing establishments. In these circumstances, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Grantchester]

I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that dogs will still be required to wear an identity tag and that a lot of the concerns on that score can be laid to rest. I am grateful that he has further clarified, under this amendment, that consultation is proceeding with necessary stakeholders on the introduction of these provisions. With that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 92B withdrawn.