Property (Digital Assets etc) Bill

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Second reading committee
Wednesday 6th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, it is an honour to have an opportunity to speak on this Bill. I refer to my entry in the register of interests, which includes sitting on the advisory board of two crypto- currency companies and, indeed, one environmental company that uses tokens and the blockchain.

I begin by saying what an honour it is to follow two such distinguished speakers, including the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, who has established himself over many years in this House as a real expert in the emerging technologies that are going to transform not just the British but the global economy. Hearing his thoughts about the use of blockchain going forward was very instructive. I am also following a Lord Chief Justice, who made a point that I was going to make at the end of my speech but will now move up the agenda in terms of where this Bill sits in the international context of different legal systems and jurisdictions.

I thank the Government for fielding such a heavyweight team of hereditary Peers, because it reminds us yet again of the incredible contribution that our hereditary Peers make in this House, particularly on technical but very important, narrowly focused Bills. I hope that they will do so for many years to come.

Obviously, today we are welcoming—well, welcoming may be too strong a word, but we are noting—the election of President Trump. I have been looking at my bitcoin holdings as they soar on the back of it, because he is, apparently, the crypto president. It will be interesting to see the developments that happen in the US, because I want to focus on crypto and technology.

Two important points—I hope that does not sound too patronising—have been made by my noble friend Lord Holmes and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, on whether the Bill is necessary and whether the common law already defines what a digital asset is or could be. The Minister said that a digital asset is considered property if it has the necessary characteristics of property, by which I assume he means it exists as a unique and unchangeable asset that can be passed from one party to another. He referred to intangible assets and made the point that multiple copies of a Word document can be made. However, within that word “document” sits the intangible asset of intellectual property. Legislation has made it clear what can count as property, including copyright Acts dating back to the beginning of the 18th century, so this Bill may well be necessary to make it clear that the courts have jurisdiction to define a digital asset as property.

That links very well with a point from my noble friend Lord Holmes. Interestingly, this is a Ministry of Justice Bill which resulted from a Law Commission report, but it is also a digital and technology Bill. It is in many ways a flagship not just of our English legal jurisdiction keeping up with the times but of this Government leading on digital policy. I feel strongly as a former Minister in this area that the British Government need to maintain their lead and status as one of the jurisdictions to which people look for policy innovations. I recently spoke to the Malaysian Digital Minister, who was in London last week and made it very clear that Malaysia looks to us on policy for such things as artificial intelligence and digital identity. I appreciate that I am straying somewhat from the core of this tiny Bill, but within it lies the important message that the Government are prepared to bring forward legislation that will maintain Britain’s status in this important area.

My noble friend Lord Holmes mentioned that he has been talking about blockchain since 2017; I am pleased to get one over on him, as I was lucky enough to write the preface to the Government’s consultation on distributed ledger technology in 2015. Those were the days when George Osborne, echoing what I have just said, wanted the British Government to be at the forefront of emerging technologies and the Treasury to be on the front foot in embracing them. Rather like with artificial intelligence and the metaverse, we have been through so many iterations of how this will eventually play out. The market will eventually show that, but we have talked about central bank digital currencies, for example, and the Bank of England has done many reports on it.

I will dwell a bit on what we call cryptocurrencies and know as bitcoin, which is becoming more and more mainstream. It is interesting that there are now these things called exchange-traded funds, through which normal consumers can go to very well-established financial institutions and effectively buy bitcoin, rather than going to the Wild West of the many crypto companies that have emerged over the last few years. I find bitcoin and cryptocurrency a fascinating development. In theory, there is no reason why bitcoin cannot be currency. It has all its attributes; it can be traded and used to purchase things—just as gold can effectively be a currency because we decided that it has a value and we are willing to exchange it for value. However, bitcoin and cryptocurrency quickly get involved in the geopolitical debate—the prominence of the dollar and the role of the nation state in issuing currencies—which is why it is so controversial. It is also controversial because it can be misused by nefarious elements, but it can be a fantastic asset for people excluded from normal banking facilities. The ability to use bitcoin to transfer aid to Ukraine is an obvious example.

I would like the Minister perhaps to reflect on this. I appreciate that it is not really his department that would oversee cryptocurrency regulation—it would be the Treasury and perhaps the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology—but it is the case that the last Government were very much on the front foot in talking about putting regulation in place for crypto- currencies. In February 2024, the then Economic Secretary to the Treasury, Bim Afolami, said that the UK Government were going to get new rules governing stablecoins and staking services for crypto assets approved by Parliament within the six months ahead of the general election. That consultation has obviously run into the sand, but this plays to my fundamental point about technology: once the genie is out of the bottle, it will not go away. It is much better to regulate these technologies than simply to allow them to develop in a grey area. In that respect, we encourage this Government to review the effectiveness of the new rules that the last Government introduced governing the financial promotions of digital assets, to ensure that this new regime is working. This was only recently introduced, at the end of last year, and people would like clarity on whether these rules are effective.

Fundamentally, the opportunity for the UK potentially to take a lead in this important area would be the licensing of digital asset firms by the Financial Conduct Authority. It remains the case that this kind of licensing is very slow. It takes more than a year—about a year and a half—to get a licence in order to be a digital asset firm. The number of applications has fallen by more than 50% because of the bureaucracy involved. It is also difficult for a lot of these firms to get access to banking services and other professional services, such as insurance and external auditors. Some G7 jurisdictions have leaned into this issue and taken action to mandate banks to provide bank accounts to these kinds of firms.

There needs to be continued—indeed increased—engagement between the Government, the digital assets industry and the blockchain industry. As I say, the UK remains a technology leader. There was a moment in time a couple of years ago when people expected the UK—particularly under the last Prime Minister, given his interest in technology and financial services—to put the UK at the forefront.

So the digital assets Bill is seen by this industry as an important step forward and a recognition that digital assets can be exchanged and have value. My message to the Minister is that the Treasury and the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology need to step up alongside him and at least give clarity on the Government’s thought about this industry, how and whether it should be regulated, and whether they want the UK to be a centre for it.

Public Libraries

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Thursday 12th September 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Sanderson has done a cracking job with a fantastic report. I offer five thoughts on libraries.

First, libraries have always been funded by local government; they have never been funded by central government. There was a massive row in the 19th century, when Parliament brought in a law to allow local government to raise money on the rates to pay for libraries. Knowledge was then considered a dangerous thing for what was then the working man.

Secondly, libraries are no longer just about books; they are community hubs. They are about access to local government services, access to computers, safe spaces and homework clubs. As such, there is no one-size-fits-all model; it could be a public/private partnership or it could be a charitable trust. Local government—this is one area where it has a degree of autonomy—should set up library services as it thinks fit.

Thirdly, statistics about libraries closing are completely misleading. Sometimes it is good to close a library that is hugely expensive to maintain, particularly if it means you can extend opening hours in other libraries.

Fourthly, libraries come under the Arts Council—it was something I did when I was the Libraries Minister—but they should actually be part of the department of local government. They are a local government service; they are not actually a cultural service, which is ironic considering that the DCMS used to be called the Office of Arts and Libraries.

Finally, I offer one free policy for the Government, which is to double the public lending right. That would cost very little money, but it would allow the authors mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Rebuck, to live the lifestyle to which they are now accustomed. It would earn massive plaudits from the authorial community.

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[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I have another minute and a half or so. I have heard noble Lords’ request for more time to discuss libraries going forward. It was helpful that the Chief Whip was here in the chair at the beginning and heard that.

I have covered the fact that the Secretary of State has a statutory power to intervene. DCMS monitors proposals by library authorities to make changes to their library service provision. Conversation with councils enables discussion of proposed changes to service provision and insights into local delivery. So far this year, the department has engaged, either in person or virtually, with 31 local authorities.

I will cover a couple more points that were raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Sanderson, asked whether DCMS will address the data black holes in libraries. I believe I have covered that, but we are keen to make sure that there is more robust, meaningful and consistent data so that councils can make sound decisions.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the British Library attack. DCMS remains in close discussion with it about the ongoing impact of the cyberattack. DCMS hugely values the British Library’s contribution to the library landscape, not just in this country but internationally, where it is a huge asset.

A library is not a stand-alone service, as highlighted by the range of points raised. It supports other public services to achieve outcomes vital for individuals, communities and the nation to flourish. The Government fully recognise the importance of libraries. They recognise the pressures facing public libraries and the important services they provide to local communities. The Government are committed to giving stability back to local councils so that services such as public libraries that they are responsible for can best meet the needs of those communities.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

As we have so much time left in the debate, I will make a quick point following on from the excellent intervention by my noble friend Lady Bottomley—I do not know why noble Lords opposite were so grumpy about that. I remind the Minister that the one policy that central government has complete control of is the public lending right. I would be interested to hear whether she will communicate with the Libraries Minister about the opportunity to review it, because the budget has been frozen for many years.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I will make the noble Lord’s point to the Libraries Minister.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to take part in this important debate and I begin by congratulating my old friend and now noble friend Lady Fullbrook on her excellent maiden speech—I know she will make a fantastic contribution to your Lordships’ House. I also refer to my entry in the register of Members’ interests. My speech will be in two parts. In the first one minute and 40 seconds, I intend to cover culture, and let me say how grateful I am to the Government for the support they have given culture during the pandemic, including the £1.57 billion they have invested in our many cultural institutions and, indeed, for taking a wider definition of a cultural institution, such as a music venue—something that I have long supported.

I have followed with interest my good friend the Secretary of State’s comments on the anti-woke crusade that he and the Government have embarked on. I noticed his interesting article in the Sunday Telegraph, which provoked some thoughts in my head about levelling up. I think he made a valid point about having more and varied trustees of museums, but my sincere yearning is that he and our cultural institutions use the lessons of the pandemic to really lean in—if I can use that colloquial expression—to digital. Digital is no longer an add-on, and the opportunities for our cultural institutions to provide fantastic, in-depth content for a wide variety of audiences, not just in the UK but all across the world, are almost infinite. The UK has a huge opportunity to take a lead here, because very few, if any, cultural institutions around the globe have seized this opportunity.

That is my one ask of the Government on the culture front, although I note the excellent remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, which resonated because of his enormous, high-tech microphone, both about touring in Europe, which really needs to be sorted out—we have gone backwards to the situation that still exists with touring in the USA—and about the bizarre attack on the arts and humanities in schools and universities.

Having run 16 seconds over my allotted time on culture, I now turn to technology and note the online safety Bill, which is due to come to this House. The Government have already received an offer they can barely refuse: to have the noble Lord, Lord Mann, on their pre-legislative scrutiny committee. They may well take up that offer, if only to keep the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, from scrutinising the Bill in the way she has scrutinised previous legislation.

It is quite clear from the remarks made during this debate that this Bill will receive a great deal of expert attention, not least in your Lordships’ House. I say simply that this is novel, new legislation in which the Government are attempting—quite rightly, in my view—to put in place a regulatory structure that is very much needed. It is so much more complicated than anything that has ever been done to regulate content. Regulating broadcast and radio content has been relatively simple up to now. As the impassioned speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, made clear, there will be some extremely complicated and grey areas.

Nevertheless, we should not resile from applauding the Government’s ambition to introduce what, in very simple terms, I think we all want: clear terms and conditions for the people who use these platforms and clear protection when they are assaulted and attacked on them. To be assaulted, attacked and taken down is very different from people expressing their views in an open society. It is quite right that protections are put in place by the platforms and that government and civic society have a role in policing how the platforms go about that.

Those are my two simple points, and I apologise for going 17 seconds over my allotted slot.

Child Trust Funds: Children with Learning Disabilities

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Thursday 25th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot give that assurance because sanctions are not a matter for the Government; independent bodies are in place. Whether these industry providers are complying with the protections under the Mental Capacity Act is not something on which I can give an opinion. I am sure that they have looked at that issue. Ultimately, the Mental Capacity Act is there to protect vulnerable people.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

I declare my interest in the register of interests from working with The Investing and Savings Alliance. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Young for his assiduousness on this and to my noble friend Lord Wolfson for the way that he is gripping this issue. In the absence of a legislative solution, there has to be a practical one. The Government Digital Service has a mantra: “What is the user need?” Simpler forms and no fees—we can get a lot done without legislation.

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, with respect, I agree. No fees are in my bailiwick; we have done that. Simpler forms are in the judiciary’s bailiwick; I am working with the judiciary to encourage it to put simpler forms in place. Ultimately, there is a constitutional position here. The courts are run by the judiciary, not by government Ministers, and that is how it should be.

Learning Disabilities: Child Trust Funds

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Thursday 11th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that two weeks of the waiting time is mandatory under the Act. For the rest of that period, if applications are marked as urgent then they are dealt with on an expedited basis. On the second point, court staff are putting in place new digital ways of working the procedure to try and speed things up.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

I thank the Minister for being so brief that I could get in. I point to my entry in the register of Member’s interests relating to my work for the Investing and Savings Alliance. I was delighted to hear what the Minister said about there being no conceptual difference between a child trust fund and a junior ISA. Now that this issue has been raised, should the department now grasp simplifying legal procedures for a whole host of financial products? Can we not see, in the next year, the “Wolfson reforms” as his legacy?

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, I regret that my noble friend is already talking about my legacy when I have only been in this House about six weeks—in future, I will make longer answers. My noble friend raises an important point. I emphasise that the constitutional position is that court procedures and rules are a matter for the courts. So far as I am concerned, we need to make sure that the response of the justice system, over the whole gamut of civil justice, is proportionate to the sum in issue and the issues which are being argued about. To that extent, I agree with the point made by my noble friend.

HMP Birmingham

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Tuesday 4th September 2018 Commons Chamber

[Rory Stewart]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that it is about staff. We now have 3,000 more prison officers than we had when we made the announcement, and having more staff will make a difference. The next stage is getting the training right, particularly the training for the band 5 and band 4 uniformed staff who are out there on the landings day in, day out. It is about getting the staff college right for governors, and it is also about making sure that, in places like our Newbold Revel training college, we have the right support for our prison officers. It is an amazing profession, but it needs support and training.

[Mr Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con)]

I agree with the Minister that this is not a debate about privatised versus publicly run prisons; obviously it is about how we work to ensure that we do not have such trouble again. I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), the Chairman of the Select Committee on Justice, said about the need to carry on the vision of reinvigorating the prison estate.

I also echo the Minister’s comments about education. The great opportunity in our prisons is to work with prisoners and to use, for example, culture and sport to give them opportunities. Prisons are often dealing with people who have mental health issues and, sometimes, a lack of education, and it has been shown that the arts and sport can do a great deal to help rehabilitate prisoners, as opposed to, say, penal servitude.

[Rory Stewart]

My right hon. Friend encourages me to reflect on our sport strategy, which is coming through. Broadly speaking, there is also the key point about how education changes lives. By changing lives and helping people to get employment when they leave prison, education reduces reoffending and protects the public. Stabilising our prisons and delivering high-quality education in prisons is good not just for prisoners but for the rest of society.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Committee: 7th sitting: House of Commons
Wednesday 13th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Dr Whitford]

I must make progress. A long queue of Members are waiting to speak.

The EMA also leads on research, especially on rare and paediatric diseases. It simply is not possible for a single country to carry out such research. My amendment 351 is intended to ensure that we continue to participate in clinical trials under the clinical trials regulation that will come into effect in April, and maintaining standards of data protection is crucial to that. If we rush into a race to the bottom, we will end up as pariahs and we will simply not be able to co-operate with others.

I support amendment 300, which was tabled by the right hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey) and which concerns Euratom, but I want to clear up one point. The issue of access to a secure supply of medical radioisotopes was raised by the Royal College of Radiologists, but was dismissed by the Government because the isotopes are non-fissile. It is true that they are non-fissile, but we had a catastrophic shortage between 2008 and 2010 as a result of which I, as a breast cancer surgeon, could not carry out my bone scans. The new technique of sentinel node biopsy which was being rolled out had to be delayed and stalled, and I would have to choose which of my patients might have access to the one dose of technetium that we had to do a bone scan. That is why the Euratom Supply Agency set up the European Observatory on the Supply of Medical Isotopes, and it managed the situation.

We face real challenges in the coming years. The reactors that produce molybdenum, from which we get technetium, are not in the UK. We do not produce any of that stuff, and we do not yet have a replacement technique as those reactors go offline. It is important for the Government to realise that, if we are not part of the observatory, if we are not participators, the Euratom Supply Agency will have no obligation to us. It might help us, but we will be at the back of the queue, and that will affect patients.

New clause 44, tabled by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry), calls for an assessment of the impact of Brexit on health and social care and on workforces, especially social care workers. The percentage of EU nationals working in social care is even higher than the percentage in the NHS, but they will not qualify for tier 2-type visas. They are often not highly paid, but we rely on them utterly.

Staying in the single market and the customs union would solve all our problems, including the problem of the Irish border, but consideration of that is still being ruled out. I call on the Government to step back from creating all these difficulties, and reconsider the possibility of our staying in the single market and the customs union. The EU is not just about trade; it is also about rights and opportunities, and about co-operation.

[Mr Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con)]

I am very grateful, Mr Amess—[Hon. Members: “Sir David Amess.”] I am so sorry. I should remember that nearly everyone who is speaking in this debate has a knighthood.

I am very grateful, Sir David, for the chance to speak in this important debate. It has been extraordinarily interesting and, actually, enjoyable. I want to make a brief detour on amendment 7, because the dialogue between my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin) and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) was absolutely terrific. Listening to my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset took me back—to a certain extent—to meetings that I had with him when I was a Minister. You could not go in and order a cup of coffee without engaging in a two-hour debate about exactly what was meant.

In the end, however, the answer emerged, and it emerged in this exchange. Notwithstanding all the technical debate, it is extremely simple. Clause 9 was written before the Government realised that they would have to put the withdrawal agreement into a statute, and now that they have to put it into a statute, both clause 9 and, potentially, amendment 7 have reached their sell-by date. The offer from my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset is serious and real: to come back, effectively, with a rewritten clause 9 which tells Parliament exactly what the Government need to do as we implement the withdrawal agreement in legislation. Do they need some powers—I could understand that—to do some things that are essential preparatory work? I thought my point was good enough to stimulate—

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

rose—

[Mr Vaizey]

Yes, it has stimulated my hon. Friend.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

What my right hon. Friend is saying is spot-on: clause 9 gives some powers that trouble even Eurosceptics. I have never felt comfortable with the self-amending part of the Bill, and the solution advocated by my right hon. Friend, and proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin), is very attractive.

[Mr Vaizey]

I can barely stand up again, because I am slightly overwhelmed by the outbreak of consensus.

I shall end this section of the speech with some unashamed flattery, as I look at the triumvirate of titans on the Treasury Front Bench: three Ministers for whom I have the utmost admiration, including my constituency neighbour, the Solicitor General, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Robert Buckland). They have heard this debate, and they are thoughtful and effective Ministers and I am sure they will have taken the mood at least from a certain part of this House about the brilliant opportunity for a solution to this Gordian knot.

[Mr Kenneth Clarke]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Vaizey]

My cup runneth over.

[Mr Clarke]

Before my right hon. Friend tries to urge us all into withdrawing these amendments and waiting for the Government to bring forward their own amendments on Report, let me say that we have been trying to do that through 70 hours of Committee stage. It is no good regarding the Committee stage of this House as an interesting opportunity for Members of Parliament to talk to each other and for Ministers to get up and say they will think about it; we have two days for Report and Third Reading, and the plain aim of the Government is to just enjoy going through this slightly tumultuous and interesting debate and sail on to the House of Lords with the Bill largely intact as it stands. That has been their obvious tactic from a very early stage.

[Mr Vaizey]

I bow to my right hon. and learned Friend’s wisdom and experience on that point. I am a consensus merchant and simply thought there might be a way forward, but I totally understand that votes might have to be exercised tonight in order to stiffen the Government’s backbone to provide a solution. But nevertheless it has always been the case proposed by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield that the Government will have an opportunity on Report potentially to alter his amendment.

[Mr Grieve]

If they can justify it.

[Mr Vaizey]

If they can justify it, of course.

The second part of my remarks, which will be as brief as possible because so much time has been taken up, is about amendment 300, standing in my name, which has the largest number of signatories of any amendment to this Bill. I am astonished that only four of them are Conservatives, but I think that reflects the standing in which I am held in my own party; I could not even persuade the leader of the rebel alliance, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield, to sign my Euratom amendment, and I really do not want my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset to talk about bad law when he comes to look at it.

The point of the amendment is simply to put the issue of Euratom under parliamentary scrutiny, and I note the comments made by the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) in her excellent speech about the importance of Euratom in our medical life, and her own real experience at the chalkface in her extraordinary work. So Euratom is not an esoteric issue; it affects us all. It has been debated in the House before and I shall not spend a lot of time talking about how extraordinarily successful our nuclear industry is. My own personal interest comes from the fact that although Culham is not in my constituency, many of my constituents work there, and it depends on Euratom. I thank the Government for last week’s announcement of £86 million of investment in Culham for two new centres of excellence for the testing of components and for fuel storage; that is a real vote of confidence in Culham.

The point, of course, about Euratom is that nobody voted to leave it. Euratom was not in the European Union Referendum Act 2015, and was not on the ballot; it falls under a separate treaty. So the British people did not have a chance to have a referendum on our membership of Euratom.

The reason we are leaving Euratom is technical. Legal advice, which we have not seen, deems Euratom to be inextricably linked to the European Union and therefore an article 50 notice would be defective if it did not include Euratom. However, the mood of the Government and, I think, the House is that we are leaving Euratom on a technicality, not because we object to being governed by Euratom. There is no mood among the general population to leave Euratom as far as I am aware, and I think that only one hon. Member has managed to stand up and say that there is a plausible reason to leave it.

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[Mr Grieve]

I see the Solicitor General nodding. However, the fact that it might have legal implications does not mean that it is not a very desirable objective.

[Mr Vaizey]

The implications of leaving Euratom, some of which have already been identified by the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire, also extend to our nuclear industry, which provides 20% of this country’s energy. At the moment, we simply cannot move nuclear material around unless we are members of Euratom. So when we leave Euratom, we will have to have, in effect, a Euratom-style arrangement to allow us to move goods around. “Goods” can mean a variety of things. We imagine highly radioactive canisters being moved in special trains at the dead of night, but the movement of goods also involves mundane things such as heat pumps, motors, spares and other components, all of which, because they are part of the civil nuclear ecosystem, have to be moved under the terms of these treaties.

Euratom covers not only objects but the freedom of movement of people. We depend on our membership of Euratom for a nuclear power industry, for our medical industry—isotopes have been mentioned—and for the Joint European Torus at Culham, where Britain has done extraordinarily well. Huge advantages have been made in robotics and other sciences, and there are £500 million-worth of contracts already in ITER, the successor to Culham, thanks to the expertise we have built up here.

Let me make it clear that, throughout this process of our technical move to leave Euratom, Ministers have been absolutely brilliant in engaging with me and other hon. Members who share my concerns and have similar interests. They have bent over backwards to do what they can to accommodate our concerns. Looking forward, we need Ministers to give us clarity on a number of issues. We need nuclear co-operation agreements with other countries—the United States, Canada, Australia, Japan and possibly the European Union as well—and they need to be in place by March 2019. These agreements can be complex, and they can depend on the legislation in other legislatures. For example, the US Congress would have to pass a new nuclear co-operation agreement with us. We will also need a new safeguards regime, and this will come in through the Nuclear Safeguards Bill as a contingency, although I understand that the Government might want Euratom to continue to cover the safeguarding role.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for tabling this amendment. As he knows, the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee published a report today on our future relationship with Euratom. The cross-party Committee agreed that we needed as close a relationship as possible with Euratom, in part because of the safeguarding issue. Dr Golshan of the Office for Nuclear Regulation said in evidence to the Committee that our safeguarding would not be at Euratom standards by March 2019, notwithstanding the Nuclear Safeguards Bill that is going through Parliament. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that until we have reached Euratom standards, we need either a transition period or a close association with Euratom to ensure that there is no deterioration in standards in our civil nuclear sector?

[Mr Vaizey]

The hon. Lady and her Committee have published an excellent 45-page report this morning, and I read it when it was hot off the press. It makes all the points that I want to make about the need to have as close an association as possible with Euratom, particularly in regard to safeguarding. What worries me about the Office for Nuclear Regulation is that, while the will and desire are there, this is another job that cannot be done overnight. It will need to triple the number of inspectors over the next four years, for example. Training a qualified inspector takes between 12 and 18 months; it takes five years to train an unqualified one. The ONR already needs another £10 million just for recruitment and IT, not even for specialist equipment. Some people argue—in fact, I think it is in the BEIS Committee report—that the specialist equipment at Sellafield, which is currently owned by Euratom, would have to be replaced, at a cost of £150 million.

We need clarity on the nuclear co-operation agreements, clarity on the safeguarding regime and who will conduct it, and clarity on whether we will reach International Atomic Energy Agency standards, which the ONR is currently aiming for as a realistic target—Euratom’s standards are higher. We also need free movement of nuclear workers in the broadest sense, and I am not talking about nuclear scientists; I mean the people who actually build nuclear power stations. For example, I think the UK has 2,700 registered steel fixers, half of which will be needed to build Hinkley Point C. That kind of specialist construction worker will come under the category of nuclear workers. As for the future of our continued international co-operation, a particularly live issue at the moment is the extension of funding for the Joint European Torus, which is currently going through the Council for the fiscal years 2019-20, and the European Union is keen to get clarity from the Government on our intentions.

[Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)]

The key point about that work programme is that Austria will be taking over the presidency of the Council of the European Union next year. That is incredibly worrying and means that the timeframe to which we are working is July 2018, not later, which is one of the reasons why we need parliamentary scrutiny of what is happening.

[Mr Vaizey]

The hon. Lady is entirely correct because Austria is an anti-nuclear state, and there is some suspicion that some difficulties may emerge if the matter is not wrapped up before the Austrian presidency.

The amendment’s purpose is to provide parliamentary scrutiny of the important process of replicating the effect of a treaty that nobody wanted to leave. My challenge to Ministers is to engage with the amendment, and I look forward to hearing from the Dispatch Box whether the amendment is acceptable or whether they have an alternative way of providing the House with a strategy. On that note, after 14 minutes, I will sit down.

[Chris Bryant]

Sir David—for you are indeed beknighted—it is good to take part in this debate immediately after the right hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey). However, I am slightly saddened that he was so disparaging of all the Opposition Members who have signed his amendment. If we are just cast aside with such casual, reckless, gay abandon, we are never going to do that again, are we?

The British way in parliamentary matters has always been that we govern by consent, not by Government fiat, so Parliament should never be conceived of by a Government as an inconvenience that has to be avoided if possible. Parliament should be seen as an essential part of how we carry the whole nation with us. The Government should have more strength in Parliament than they do if they try to circumvent Parliament.

Getting the process right, as several hon. Members have already said, is absolutely essential. We are going to be deciding what many assume will be a long-term settlement for this country for generations to come. We cannot simply try to go ahead with a railroaded version of that settlement that only carries 52% of the country, or perhaps even less by then—who knows?—because we will in the end undermine the very institutions that people have been trying to say should be sovereign. I say to the Government that no amount of jiggery-pokery will sort things out. At the end of the day, parliamentary shenanigans will do far more harm to this country’s political institutions than we should countenance.

The Government already have phenomenal power and—I have used this figure before, but it is true—this is the first time in our history that more than half of Government Members are now either Ministers, trade envoys or Parliamentary Private Secretaries and are beholden unto the Government in some way or other. We have more Ministers than Italy, France and Germany put together, so the Government’s hold on Parliament in our system is already phenomenal, yet they have introduced clause 9, which is truly exceptional. I have tabled several amendments, which I will not address because I do not think there is any great point. The honest truth is that I would prefer to see the whole clause out of the Bill.

The moment I saw clause 9, I thought, “If there is a real reason for this, surely by now the Government would have argued why they have to have these powers.” Now the Government say a Bill will be introduced on the agreement and its implementation. If there really is a need for those powers, clause 9 should be in that Bill and not in this Bill at all.

I love all four of the Ministers sitting on the Government Front Bench to death, and obviously the safest thing to do today is for one of them to stand up—they could stand up one after another, as in “Spartacus”—and say, “We will not support this. We will not urge the Committee to consider taking on this clause as part of the Bill, because we know we do not really need it.”

People might ask, “If the Government do not really need clause 9, why does it matter if the clause is in the Bill at all?” The problem is that every single Government in the history of the world have always used every power they have to the umpteenth degree. It is a temptation, and we should take temptation out of the Government’s hands if they are not prepared to take it out of their own hands. Let us bear in mind that the Bill will allow the Government to change the Parliament Acts and the Representation of the People Acts. [Interruption.] The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice is standing up! Oh, he’s not.

Admittedly, changes to the Parliament Acts and the Representation of the People Acts by secondary legislation would have to be made via the affirmative process and there would be a vote in both Houses.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dominic Raab]

A number of Members have tabled amendments seeking to maintain the UK’s membership of EU agencies, institutions and international agreements, as well as our participation in EU programmes and access to EU systems and databases. They also seek to ensure that measures are put in place so that we are ready domestically to thrive when we leave the EU. Those amendments include amendments 196 to 199, 241 to 261, 276, 224 and 225, and a number of others.

The Government recognise that a large number of the UK’s relationships with non-EU partners and international organisations are linked to our membership of the EU, and specifically to the Euratom treaty, which deals with nuclear co-operation. Maintaining close links after we leave is important, and in many cases will be in the interests of both the UK and the EU.

[Mr Vaizey]

I know that my hon. Friend has been on his feet for 50 minutes. We should be happy to have another 50 minutes, because he is doing brilliantly. He has just mentioned Euratom. As he knows, amendment 300 was signed by more Members than any of the other amendments. I hate to keep asking him to come back with proposals on Report, but will he give a commitment that the Government will at least publish a strategy for their future relationship with Euratom by then, and that the strategy will be updated quarterly so that we can maintain progress? As I said in my speech earlier, Ministers have been brilliant on this issue, but we do need to partner with them.

[Dominic Raab]

The Government intend to present a written ministerial statement to Parliament before Report which will set out our vision, or strategy, for a close association with Euratom. I hope that the commitment to that statement will reassure my right hon. Friend, and that he will not feel the need to press his amendment to a vote.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jenkin]

I will give way to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey).

[Mr Vaizey]

My hon. Friend’s remarks fill me with hope. He seems to accept that this debate is about a point of principle, rather than—as some might think—delaying Brexit, which is absolutely not what it is about. Does he agree?

[Mr Jenkin]

I think that some people in this House might be trying to delay Brexit, some of whom may be supporting the amendment of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield, but I perfectly accept his bona fides and those of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wantage. I simply conclude that there is an opportunity for the discussions to continue. It is not necessary to bring this matter to a vote this evening.

Draft Judicial Pensions (Fee-Paid Judges) Regulations 2017 Draft Judicial Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2017 Draft Judicial Pensions (Additional Voluntary Contributions) Regulations 2017

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Monday 27th March 2017 General Committees

[Mr Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey, and to speak in this important Committee addressing judicial pensions amendment regulations. I want to put a few questions to the Minister, which I hope he will be able to clarify.

I note from the explanatory memorandum—obviously I had time over the weekend to go over the statutory instruments in detail, but the explanatory memorandum is probably the best thing to refer to—that at the moment the legislation is not compatible with the European convention on human rights, until the appeal McCloud v. Ministry of Justice is heard. I understand the Government’s desire to bring these regulations into being swiftly, so that we are not in a position where fee-paid judicial officeholders are at a disadvantage or are receiving unlawful pensions, but will the Minister assure us that we will not be back here again, further amending the regulations, to take into account the outcome of the appeal? Can the Minister shed some light on the debate that must have happened in the Ministry of Justice about whether this was the right moment to bring forward these important regulations?

I note with some concern that the regulations were passed only in 2015 and yet here we are, less than 18 months later, debating amendments. I am pleased, though, that the matter is being dealt with rapidly. Those of us who represent constituents who have lost out through Government pension schemes might raise an eyebrow at the fact that legislation can be introduced so rapidly to right a wrong. I represent pensioners who had worked for the Atomic Energy Authority who were stiffed out of their pensions when they were transferred to the Atomic Energy Authority Technology company. They were assured by the Government Actuary that their pensions would be no worse off than those they would have received had they remained in the public sector, so they transferred to the private sector, and now AEA Technology has gone bust and their pensions have been reduced. It has been almost impossible to get the Government to address that important issue, but I am pleased that they are very keen to do so when it comes to judges.

Can the Minister shed light on the Scottish Government’s position? I notice that they have asked that their judges be included in the scheme, rather than a separate pension scheme. There is a vigorous debate at the moment about a possible second referendum on Scottish independence, so will the Minister shed some light on what will happen to the pension scheme should Scotland become independent? How complicated will it be to separate the two pension schemes?

Finally, I note that there is no scheme for the forfeiture of a judge’s pension, because apparently that would infringe on judicial independence. I cannot help thinking that judges have got a clever point into these regulations. I do not know whether there is a provision for the forfeiture of a Member of Parliament’s pension, or whether we are immune from forfeiture in order to protect our independence. Will the Minister shed some light on what is meant by the phrase “judicial independence” in the explanatory memorandum? If a judge—they are only human—were to commit a heinous crime while sitting as a judge, would we have no redress against them, in terms of forfeiting their pension, even though the full force of the law would be brought to bear? Those important points require some explanation from the Minister, and I look forward to hearing his response.

draft Public Guardian (Fees, etc.) (Amendment) regulations 2017

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2017 General Committees

[Mr Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to appear under your chairmanship, Mr Flello, to debate these important regulations. The Office of the Public Guardian plays an important role in our society, and to my mind the need for people to take out lasting powers of attorney is good housekeeping, particularly as we have an ageing population. All families should look to ensure they have lasting power of attorney in place, should—heaven forbid—their loved ones become incapacitated in the future.

I welcome the fact that the Government are reducing the fees. Those of us who sat through the Budget and supported it heart and soul were still a little disconcerted by some of its measures such as the increase in probate fees, which will affect millions of people. I wonder whether the Minister has any reflections on why the Government have decided to reduce fees for this important matter, which affects many millions of people, while increasing them significantly for probate. I note that the regulations are due to come in on 1 April, but I think it is normal in such circumstances to have a period of 21 days between Parliament passing such a regulation and the fees coming into force, so will he enlighten us on why Parliament has been given such a short time to debate this important measure?

I wonder whether the Minister could widen his remarks, perhaps beyond the strict terms of the statutory instrument, and comment on the reason why so many more people are taking out lasting power of attorney. Is it anything to do with the Government Digital Service, the excellent service that the previous Government empowered? I think I am right in saying that lasting power of attorney is one of its most used services. For those of us who like to take part in pub quizzes, I was told that its least used service is for applications to be buried at sea—apparently, there are a dozen such applications a year. I will not ask the Minister to comment on the number of applications to be buried at sea, but I would like his reflections on whether the Government Digital Service has contributed to more people taking out lasting power of attorney.

It is now easy to take out lasting power of attorney digitally, but what measures are the Government taking to publicise it? Members who have listened carefully to my speech will have heard my opening remarks about how this is an important part of family housekeeping. I have never seen an advert on, say, the tube or a bus about lasting power of attorney. I wonder whether the Minister has any plans to publicise it further and wider.

I noticed that the Government explain in the explanatory memorandum that, even though the fees are being reduced, they will cover the cost of administering the lasting power of attorney, but I did not hear in the Minister’s remarks or see in the explanatory memorandum—I am sure that is entirely my fault—the overall cost to the Exchequer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Lee]

Yes, there is a practical approach, but in those situations, other family members are often aware of such a directive and can access the website, but I am happy to look at further details.

[Mr Vaizey]

In my previous role as Minister for telecommunications, I was aware of how Government policy could have an impact on nuisance calls. Have the Government evaluated whether alerting people to the need to get a refund might encourage spurious companies to be set up to encourage people, by cold calling the vulnerable, to make such claims?

[Dr Lee]

My right hon. Friend makes a decent point. I take note of it and will pass it on to the relevant officials to ensure that such abuse does not ensue.

On timing and the 21 days, I was made aware of the issue shortly after becoming a Minister and we have been working extremely hard on finding the best way of putting in place a system for refunding when necessary. We have acted swiftly and I am not sure that the point about the 21 days is particularly relevant. The statutory instrument will come into force on 1 April, which means that it is unlikely that there will be 21 days between its making and coming into force. It is important for the lower fee to be brought into force as quickly as possible. In addition, the Department does not consider that the regulations significantly diminish rights, impose significantly more onerous new duties or require the adoption of different patterns of behaviour.

Clearly, there has been a rather basic error in the long-term projection analysis of demand in an ageing society. The accounting officer has reassured me that the forecasting model has been properly reviewed. Indeed, from now on, there will be an annual review of all the figures. The issue has arisen every year for four to five years and I have been reassured that that will not be the case in future.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Wantage and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston are right that communicating the change is important. We will do our very best to ensure that everyone knows that this has happened and that they can seek a refund when appropriate.

We have had an interesting debate. I thank members of the Committee for the points that have been made. The changes that the regulations introduce will bring about a welcome reduction in the fee for registering a power of attorney. I am sure we all agree that that is an important tool, of which we would encourage people to take advantage, while balancing that with the need to fund the important functions of the Public Guardian. I hope that the Committee will support the regulations.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Vaizey of Didcot Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Elizabeth Truss]

I confirm that books are freely available in prison.

[Mr Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con)]

I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend to her position. I was delighted to hear the new Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport talking about the importance of the arts in prisons. I hope that my right hon. Friend will recognise how the arts can bring prisoners to literacy and teach them a huge range of skills. I hope she will meet the National Criminal Justice Arts Alliance at the earliest opportunity to discuss what the arts can do, particularly in respect of literacy.

[Elizabeth Truss]

May I say what a fantastic job my right hon. Friend has done in championing the arts in every part of our country? His legacy lives on, and it will live on in our prisons.