Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Tyler and Baroness Williams of Trafford(8 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I shall start with the question from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about two-tier authorities and what sorts of discussions we have been involved with. On a personal level, I have spoken to councils up and down the country. While I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, that there is not consensus across the country, there is certainly the feeling that in some areas districts might feel vetoed by counties and vice versa, so this provision will enable either districts or counties to move in the way that they would wish. Consensus is of course the thing that we are seeking, but we also do not want authorities to be able to veto others in the aims that they seek to achieve.
The noble Lord asked me about transport across combined authority areas. We shall get on to transport in later groups, but of course Transport for the North, which will cover a vast area, will deal with just that issue, because of course transport does not start at one local authority boundary and finish at the other end of it; it transcends areas and is ideally placed to be dealt with on that much broader scale.
To go back to the first point, I understand that officials have held discussions with the County Councils Network and with the authorities involved—I am going beyond what I have been doing. Extensive discussions have taken place across the country.
The noble Lord also talked about the Bristol issue. Noble Lords will recall that an amendment was moved in this place, which the other place accepted, which put the Bristol mayor in the same position as mayors of other authorities, so that the local electorate can petition for a referendum to be held on whether mayoral governance in Bristol should continue and such a referendum is able to be held after the 10-year moratorium period—therefore from 2022. The other place accepted this as Clause 21 as the Bill left the other place.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, talked about powers being used very circumspectly. As the Secretary of State made clear in the other place, when he exercises those powers which the amendments made in the other place have given him, he will maintain the preference for consensus which he has shown to date, and the Government’s aim is to build on that consensus.
The noble Lord also talked about the large number of amendments which have come back to this House, and I agree with him that there are a large number. However, he also talked about the sensibleness of most of those amendments and about the need to work in partnership. He is absolutely right that devolution will not be effective in the long term unless partnership is effective. That is why the word “consensus” has been mentioned so much in today’s debate, because unless those local authorities can work together, they will not succeed in their aims for growth and other things.
The noble Lord also asked for further assurances that the powers will be used sparingly and that the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, would be reflected in the annual report. I hope that in my initial speech I gave those assurances, and I will give them again. Of course what will go into the report will be a matter for Bill managers, but I hope that I have made my feelings clear on that.
Both the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Beecham, talked about the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I wrote yesterday—and I accept some criticism for the lateness of that letter—about Amendment 36, that,
“the context for these regulations making provision about local authority structures will be the implementation of devolution deals, specifically fast tracking the processes of such legislation as the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007. I also commented”—
back on 29 June—
“as you rightly refer, to the need for consent by all councils being sufficient safeguard that fast tracking will not remove inappropriately any essential constraint or protection. Notwithstanding this, we subsequently introduced a further safeguard by requiring that the use of this regulation power must be accompanied by the transparency given by a specific report to Parliament setting out the context (i.e. describing the bespoke deal) and providing information about any consultations or representations in connection with the regulations”.
Lord Tyler (LD)
My Lords, I serve on the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The Minister will recall that this is not the first time she has been put in an impossible situation. With great respect to her, in the light of the very serious concerns and anxieties expressed by that committee about this section of the Bill and the powers given to the Minister under the Bill, it is not good enough for her to be provided with that text to read to the House at this stage without us being given an opportunity to see its significance. We in the committee took great care, with very good advice, over how these powers were going to be exercised. The department has put the Minister in an impossible situation. It had all last week—I assume that those in the department were working—to get this information to the House, and your Lordships should be given the opportunity to see these things in print rather than having to rely on the Minister. She has been put in this position twice. She should have the best possible advice and support, and she should go back to the department and say “Not good enough”.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I can but apologise for the fact that the letter has arrived late and I hope noble Lords will accept that apology from me. However, I accept the noble Lord’s point.
Amendment 45, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, enables the Secretary of State to revoke orders conferring health functions on a combined authority. I hope the noble Lord will be slightly patient—perhaps we can come to that in a later grouping when my noble friend Lord Prior will be talking about health.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, also asked me, I think, what happens to business rates if a district joins a combined authority without a county. There is no direct relationship between the membership of the combined authority and the business rates, which will be subject to further legislation. I hope that that helps the noble Lord.
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Tyler and Baroness Williams of Trafford
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, Amendment 7 modifies the processes for establishing a combined authority to provide, where the circumstances warrant it, a fast-track process that maintains all the necessary safeguards. We discussed a similar amendment on the first day of Report, and explained the Government’s rationale for streamlining the process for establishing a combined authority. We returned to that amendment on the final day of Report, particularly to consider it in the context of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report of 14 July. I explained in depth the background to the amendment, the need for it, and the safeguards that we were providing.
Noble Lords will recall that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, sought further time both to consider my detailed explanation and for the House to consider the Delegated Powers Committee’s report. I withdrew the amendment and promised to return to it at Third Reading. In moving Amendment 7, I have considered the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report and I have had discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and considered his concerns. I have retabled the amendment with certain modifications, which I consider address those concerns.
The amendments that I tabled on Report provided for a fast-track process, which removed the requirement for councils to undertake the lengthy process of preparing a governance review and scheme, where the substance of these had been undertaken in a different way—for example, through agreeing a devolution deal. In this case, the requirements on the Secretary of State to apply the statutory tests and consult would remain. The amendments tabled on Report also enabled an alternative streamlined approach where the councils develop a governance review and scheme, while the requirement for the Secretary of State to consult the councils that have prepared the scheme would be replaced by requirements that the Secretary of State must have regard to the scheme and the councils must consent to the establishment of the combined authority.
I have now tabled a modified amendment, Amendment 7, which removes the unnecessary duplication within the statutory process for establishing a combined authority, while ensuring that there is always a public consultation before a combined authority can be established. If the councils have prepared and published a governance review and scheme, including carrying out a public consultation, and if the Secretary of State considers that no further consultation is necessary, the Secretary of State can proceed without undertaking a further consultation. However, if councils have not prepared and published a governance review, including a consultation, or if the Secretary of State considers that the local consultation is not sufficient, the Secretary of State must undertake a public consultation. We consider that this streamlines the process for establishing a combined authority by removing the duplication of requiring both a local and a Secretary of State consultation without losing any of the safeguards inherent in the process. I beg to move.
Lord Tyler (LD)
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister. Not only did she make it possible for me to meet her and her officials when she was looking at the detail behind her new amendment; she has also admirably explained its purpose. It is a huge improvement. All Members of your Lordships’ House who have been involved in the discussions on this Bill will agree that one of the central issues we have been looking at all along is to ensure that there is not just public consent, but genuine enthusiasm for these new structures. By ensuring that there will be adequate consultation at the local level, and that if there is not, the Secretary of State will make sure that there will be before any new scheme or arrangements are put in place, she has done the House and local government a very considerable service.
I think that other Members of the House felt that there was an underlying suggestion that streamlining and fast-tracking could be taken by a small group as a short-cut to avoid public consultation, and in that way, a small and relatively exclusive group could find itself taking decisions without that degree of public consent. We now recognise that the amendment is a great improvement. But it lays a responsibility, if I may put it like this, on the constituent authorities which come together to try to form a combined authority to deal with this issue expeditiously. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, whom I regard as the godfather of this Bill—in the nicest possible sense; in the ecclesiastical manner rather than in the sense of a Sicilian godfather—will agree that while we want to try to make sure that people respond to these opportunities with enthusiasm, they should not hang about unnecessarily. As I say, the amendment is therefore a great improvement.
Perhaps I may remind your Lordships of the original recommendation made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee because it goes to the heart of this issue:
“We see the scheme process, which involves local engagement and consultation, as being wholly different from the process of discussion and negotiation which takes place only between the local authorities and the Secretary of State. One engages wider local interests; the other does not. The House may therefore wish to press the Minister to provide a fuller explanation for the amendments, and, in particular, to explain how wider local engagement will be ensured, if the existing statutory processes for review and publication of a scheme are no longer a pre-condition to the making of an order by the Secretary of State”.
The Minister has gone further. She has not just explained, she has responded to the recommendation, and we should be extremely grateful that she has done so.
Since this will be my last opportunity to contribute to the debates on the Bill, I congratulate the noble Baroness and thank her very much indeed for the way in which she has carried out her great responsibility for the Bill; indeed, I must express my huge admiration for the way in which she has done so. I have also been enormously impressed by the hard work of Members on all sides of the House, not least the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Beecham, on the Labour Front Bench, and especially my noble friend Lord Shipley along with his team. I repeat what I said earlier: I still regard the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, as the godfather of the Bill.
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Tyler and Baroness Williams of Trafford
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, Amendment 73 would have the effect of lowering the voting age for local government elections in England and Wales from 18 to 16. There is no doubt that the Scottish referendum debate was unique in the way that it engaged the public and secured the participation of 16 and 17 year- olds in a way that we have not seen before—I absolutely acknowledge that, as well as the other factors that may have engaged the people of Scotland.
It is clear that lowering the voting age to 16 for local elections in England and Wales is a major change to the fundamental building blocks of the country’s democracy. The starting point for making such change would seem to be that those democratically elected to represent the people of this country consider all the issues involved, seek the views of those they represent, and seek to recognise where public opinion stands on the issue and what would maintain confidence in ensuring that the elections are free and fair and give genuine voice to the people. They discuss the issues and, having carefully weighed the argument and recognised where consensus and opinion lie across the country, decide whether or not to make the change.
This should be the approach to deciding whether to make fundamental changes to our election systems. It is entirely consistent with this approach for the Scottish Parliament to decide the voting age for local government elections in Scotland, and there the Parliament has now decided to reduce the voting age to 16.
It is clearly right for Parliament to consider whether there should be a change to the franchise for local government elections in England. However, noble Lords may wish to reflect on whether it is appropriate that such a fundamental electoral change should be instigated in your Lordships’ House—an unelected Chamber—rather than in the other place. Whatever the quality of the many and varied discussions we have had today, we can all agree that, although the quality of our debate is high, we have necessarily not had the wide-ranging consideration which can happen only following a debate across the country and after hearing the views of many on the issue. In short, whatever merits there may be in making this change to the franchise for local elections, today is not the time and this Bill is not the vehicle.
As to its merit, noble Lords will know that the Government have no plans to lower the minimum voting age. In most democracies, including most of the EU member states, the voting age is also 18. In the EU, only Austria allows voting for 16 year-olds. The age of 18—not 16—is widely recognised as the age at which one becomes an adult and gains full citizenship rights. In 2014, the Select Committee which conducted an inquiry into lowering the voting age to 16 noted in its report that the available evidence suggests that the public are in general satisfied with the voting age as it is.
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, spoke about the broader issue of the transition from childhood to adulthood, which deserves fuller consideration than as an adjunct to the Bill. He talked about the vulnerabilities, in many ways, of 16 and 17 year-olds to various external influences.
I shall refer to comments made by noble Lords in this House on that point. In the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill 2012, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said:
“My Lords, given the time, happily this is a short amendment. The Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 established that people under the age of 17 years are to be treated as children and therefore have to be questioned or interviewed in the presence of an appropriate adult, but people of 17 years of age and up to 18 are not treated in the same way. The Government have dealt with what has been an anomaly about treating 17 year-olds as adults for the purposes of bail, and that has now been changed to lift the age to 18. It would seem to be consonant with that approach if the appropriate adult provision was also extended from 17 years of age to 18. This is a straightforward matter”.—[Official Report, 15/2/12; col. 882.]
During proceedings on the, Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015, noble Lords opposite recognised that:
“Anyone who is the parent of a teenager or whose children were recently teenagers knows that at that age a person is on the cusp of adulthood. They are moving out of childhood and into adulthood. It is often a very difficult stage where young people appear to be very mature and yet at the same time they are childlike and vulnerable”.—[Official Report, 23/7/14; col. 1201.]
That was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws.
The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, talked about discriminating against 16 and 17 year-olds. Deciding whether or not to give the vote to 16 and 17 year-olds is not a question of removing some inappropriate discrimination; it is about what is appropriate for 16 and 17 year-olds, who are at the point of moving out of childhood and approaching adulthood. Many things are not appropriate for people at that point in their lives. They cannot marry without parental consent, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said; they are treated in special ways in various aspects of the criminal justice system; and they cannot join the Army without parental consent.
For the reasons I have set out we cannot support the amendment and I hope that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw it for two reasons only: first, this is not the Bill to decide a huge issue such as this; and, secondly, we are an unelected Chamber and it is not for us to propose a change in the franchise.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, the noble Baroness’s last remark has really irritated me because I have worked hard to prevent the views of the House being treated as not significant simply because, at the moment, we are unelected. I have worked hard to achieve some election. Indeed, if there had been slightly different circumstances in 2012, the previous Government’s Bill would have been sorting out this issue by now.
In the mean time, I am extremely grateful to colleagues on all sides of the House for the serious way in which they have approached this issue. I am particularly grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, because he went to the heart of the matter. I can reassure him that in Scotland this issue was treated seriously; the debate was very thoughtful, and when the Scottish Parliament came back after the referendum they recognised that young people had taken the issue seriously. Given his experience, I hope he will agree that it is a fact of life that if you give people responsibility they will become more responsible. Anyone in your Lordships’ House who thinks that suddenly we are going to be swamped with huge numbers of irresponsible, immature 16 and 17 year-olds who will swing elections should worry about older people. I am 73 and I do not pretend that I am always entirely logical on all issues.
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Tyler and Baroness Williams of Trafford
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, in moving Amendment 26, I shall speak to all the other amendments in the group. They are about streamlining, fast-tracking and giving greater flexibility in the setting up of combined authorities or the making of changes to an existing combined authority. Certain of the amendments also give greater flexibility in establishing or changing economic prosperity boards, which can also be established under the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. Specifically, Amendments 26, 27, 62 and 77 modify the processes for establishing a combined authority in order to provide, if circumstances warrant it, a fast-track process that, while quicker, will maintain all the necessary essential safeguards.
The current process for creating a combined authority under the 2009 Act is lengthy. Past experience shows that it can take well over a year even to reach the point of the order being made, and that is before the real implementation begins. The process involves duplication, particularly where the setting up of a combined authority is agreed as part of the conversations and discussions surrounding a devolution deal. These amendments provide a streamlined process for creating combined authorities where the risks of duplication are minimised—a streamlined process that in particular can be used where local areas have agreed to have combined authorities as part of the devolution deals which they have agreed with the Government. This streamlined process will allow them to implement the deal as quickly as possible without getting tied up in further administrative processes that do no more than duplicate the conversations and discussions that have led to the deal.
For example, a number of councils agree as part of a deal to the establishment of a combined authority. They have provided the Secretary of State with sufficient information and evidence for the Secretary of State to undertake the statutory tests: that is, to conclude that creating the combined authority is likely to improve the exercise of statutory functions in the combined authority’s area, to have regard to the need to reflect the identities and interests of local communities, and to secure effective and convenient local government. Finally, all the councils in the area of the proposed combined authority consent to the combined authority. In such circumstances, the fast-track process will enable the Secretary of State to proceed to seek Parliament’s approval of the necessary draft order once he has fulfilled a statutory duty to consult such persons as he considers appropriate. His decision as to who is appropriate will of course have to be taken in accordance with the well-established principles of administrative law—to act reasonably having regard to all relevant considerations.
With this streamlined process, councils no longer have to undertake the lengthy process of developing a governance review and preparing a scheme. This is not because the substance of these steps is unimportant but because that substance will have been undertaken in a different way, and the guarantee that this is so is provided by the statutory requirements of the Secretary of State to apply in accordance with administrative law the statutory tests and the statutory consultation.
These amendments also provide that where the fast-track process is not being followed and councils are developing a governance review and scheme, the process can still be more streamlined than is currently the case. The current requirement that the Secretary of State undertakes a consultation, including the clear duplication of being required to consult the very authorities that have prepared the scheme, is replaced by simple requirements that the Secretary of State must have regard to the scheme and the councils must consent to the combined authority. The Secretary of State still has the option of consulting if he considers it necessary. These amendments therefore facilitate the timely implementation of devolution deals, which will be of critical importance to areas being able to respond to the economic challenges and opportunities the country faces today. It is not an option that we have bureaucratic and time-consuming processes slowing the actions needed to grow our economy, improve productivity and increase our competitiveness.
Amendments 63, 64, 65, 76 and 78 provide certain greater flexibility and streamlining aspects of combined authorities and greater flexibility for economic prosperity boards, for which the 2009 Act also provides. Amendment 79 makes a small change to references in Sections 111 and 112 of the 2009 Act. The origin of these amendments is the draft legislative reform order that was laid in Parliament in March this year. In its report of 19 June, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee noted that the Bill and the LRO were operating in the same policy space, and commented that making changes through two separate legislative vehicles progressing at different speeds would present challenges. We have responded to the committee’s comments and by these amendments are now incorporating into this Bill provisions that give effect to those in the draft LRO, and are withdrawing the LRO.
The amendments do three things. First, they enable local authorities that do not have contiguous boundaries to form combined authorities and economic prosperity boards if the statutory tests are met. They also allow the creation, if the statutory tests are met, of combined authorities and economic prosperity boards that have a “doughnut-shaped” area. Secondly, they enable a county council in a two-tier area to be within a combined authority for only part of its area where that area coincides with one or more districts. Thirdly, they provide that minor changes to the funding, constitution or functions of an economic prosperity board can be prompted by the councils asking for such a change.
All these amendments streamline and facilitate putting in place the governance needed to support the devolution of powers to areas, helping areas grow their local economies and improving the efficiency of local public services. I commend them to the House and beg to move Amendment 26.
Lord Tyler (LD)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 62 and 77 in this group. First, I very much appreciate the Minister’s explanation of the reason for this group and I particularly welcome the fact that the Government have moved so quickly to amalgamate the previous draft LRO with the Bill. In my view, that is extremely important.
I think the Minister knows that I serve on the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. As an individual, I very much welcome that she has been able to respond so quickly. However, I think she will also know that this afternoon the committee met especially to look at the latest set of amendments. Amendments 62 and 77, to which I want to draw attention, were in one set of amendments that we looked at today.
I am obviously in some difficulty; I cannot refer to the precise recommendations of the committee because they will be reported to your Lordships’ House tomorrow, which is really my point. It would be quite wrong for us to move on those amendments without having seen the recommendations of your Lordships’ committee. However, I can refer briefly to the importance of these amendments. Amendment 62 would introduce a new clause which would make substantial amendments to the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. It would do so in a way that quite deliberately dilutes the provisions for consultation.
I think all Members of your Lordships’ House who have been following this Bill are well aware that wide consultation, which was a requirement of that previous Act, is central to the acceptance of this Bill in its current form. The dilution of those very important provisions in the 2009 Act seems to me to raise important issues. The Minister has been talking at some length about streamlining and fast-track. I am always a little apprehensive about fast-track streamlining because it usually means a sleight of hand. I fear that in this case that is precisely what is in place. If we are not to have the effective consultation provided for by the previous Act, at the very least we need a full explanation. We have not yet had that and I do not think we can expect to have it until the Minister has had an opportunity of seeing the report from the committee, which will be published tomorrow.
I understand only too well that in the speed with which the department has had to composite—I think that that is the appropriate word—the LRO from the provisions in the Bill, it may well simply have been a mistake that this consultation process has been, in the words of the Minister, streamlined. That raises very important issues that Members who have been following the consideration of this Bill throughout will wish to look at again in the light of the report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Since that will not be available until tomorrow, I hope the Minister will at least agree that there should be, as there can be under the rules of the House, a further debate on these clauses on Wednesday. I certainly would reserve the right to speak. as an individual of course but with the information that will then be available from the committee, when these come before us again on Wednesday. I hope that the Minister will recognise that that is a perfectly appropriate way for the House to proceed.
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Tyler and Baroness Williams of Trafford
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I can confirm that when people vote they will know what the mayor’s functions are.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, will the noble Baroness clear up one other point for me? She referred to the panel in new Schedule 5C. The panel has one extremely important role. Under paragraph 6—headed “Suspension”—of new Schedule 5C:
“The Secretary of State must by order provide for the panel mentioned in paragraph 4 to have power to suspend the mayor, so far as acting in the exercise of PCC functions, in circumstances corresponding to those mentioned in section 30(1) of the 2011 Act in relation to a police and crime commissioner”.
This relates back to the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, because, of course, there is a very interesting discrepancy here. As far as the police functions are concerned, there is a body that has the right to suspend the mayor. However, will the Minister confirm that that is not, of course, the case in relation to all the other functions that the elected mayor may have? Perhaps she could clarify that at this stage as it will affect later amendments.
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Tyler and Baroness Williams of Trafford
Lord Tyler (LD)
Before the Minister sits down, I wonder whether I might take her back to the comments that she made about the report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, on which I sit. I think she said that your Lordships’ House would have an opportunity to see the Government’s response to the important recommendations from that committee before the end of Committee stage; perhaps she would confirm that. I draw her attention particularly to the recommendation in paragraph 29—it is rather different from the others, which are very detailed—in which the committee says:
“In line with our conclusions in paragraph 22 above, we consider that, if the Government believe that the negative procedure is the appropriate level of scrutiny for particular categories of modifications of primary legislation, they should specify those categories in clause 55”.
There is a wider issue here, which the committee draws attention to: in parallel with the consideration of the full Bill, we also have an LRO on some specific powers, which I understand was prepared before the general election—certainly before the Bill was being prepared by the current Government. I wonder if the Minister can give some assurance to your Lordships’ House that these two quite separate exercises will at some point be brought together. Otherwise, the lack of co-ordination is a matter of concern to the committee and, I think, will be a matter of concern to Members of the House.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I can confirm just what the noble Lord thought he heard, which was that we would be responding before the end of Committee stage and that the LRO would be incorporated into the Bill.
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Tyler and Baroness Williams of Trafford
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for some very measured and sensible comments on these amendments. First, I turn to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, on the DPRR committee. As I indicated earlier, we will respond before the end of the Committee stage, which is next Monday. The committee has recommended that the LRO be subject to the super-affirmative resolution procedure. With this procedure, the expectation must be that the LRO will not come into force, if Parliament approves it, until late 2015. However, as I have already indicated, we are now seriously recommending including the LRO provision in the Bill—so I hope that that helps him—and it will overcome the difficulties identified by the Delegated Powers Committee.
Amendment 14 provides that an elected assembly must form part of a combined authority. It seeks to insert into the Bill new Schedule 5BA, which provides that the functions and procedure of the elected assembly are the same as those for the London Assembly. I understand the intention behind the amendment. First and foremost, I understand that those who are proposing this amendment want a bigger role for the ballot box. They see that this is provided in the London mayoral model, where there is an assembly that holds the mayor to account.
However, London is unique. Greater Manchester is unique. Greater Manchester is not London and London is not Greater Manchester. This is not in the civil servants’ notes. All of us from Greater Manchester are very clear about that point and clear that we do not want additional tiers of government. I am confident that other local areas probably feel the same. We do not want to create additional bureaucracy, which would cost the taxpayer money. The devolution of powers to areas will instead create efficiencies and allow each area to find its own creative solutions to the particular challenges it faces in securing long-term sustainable growth.
In order to hold the mayor and combined authority to account for their decisions and actions, the Bill provides that all combined authorities must have one or more overview and scrutiny committee drawn from the members of the constituent councils. Like the London Assembly, these overview and scrutiny committees can require the mayor, officers and members to attend their meetings and answer questions. I am sure that we will discuss the role of scrutiny more fully when we examine the later clauses of the Bill. We are determined to ensure that scrutiny is as strong and robust as it can be. That scrutiny provides the real protection against the fears of a one-party state, and must be seen to be effective, transparent and independent so as to maintain public confidence in the institutions and governance arrangements to which we will be devolving wide-ranging powers. I reiterate my earlier offer—because the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, was on his way out of the door when I was making it—about any suggestions that noble Lords might wish to make on how we ensure that scrutiny is as robust as possible.
However, we do not want, and I am convinced that few in our cities and counties will want, a new tier of government—a new tier of politicians. The experience of the metropolitan county councils, which my noble friend Lord Heseltine abolished through the legislation he introduced, shows the problems and weaknesses of having inevitably competing tiers of politicians. That said, I believe that with the right legislative framework for allowing areas to draw together scrutiny committees with a broad membership and strong powers, the future governance arrangements can indeed fulfil the aims of those proposing these amendments that public confidence will be maintained and, more importantly, that devolution will work, benefiting the local communities that it serves.
Amendment 17 sets out the electoral arrangements for an elected assembly, using a single transferable vote model. This is a complex electoral system that would be costly and time-consuming to implement. As noble Lords have pointed out, we would have a very confusing array of arrangements for local elections. Introducing STV for all local elections would require significant changes to existing electoral boundaries and could not be introduced, even if it were desirable, within any short timescale.
Amendments 25 and 26 would require the assembly to resolve, by a simple majority,
“for the relevant combined authority to enable the mayor to take on the functions of a police and crime commissioner for that area”.
Notwithstanding the explanations I have already given as to why we would not want there to be an elected assembly for a mayoral combined authority, we consider that there is no need to require any additional body to approve the transfer of police functions to the mayor. The transfer of police and crime commissioner functions to the mayor forms part of the devolution deal and is actually analogous to the situation in London. The Bill requires that all the appropriate authorities in an area would have to give consent before an order to transfer police and crime commissioner functions could be made. Hence we are clear that the transfer of PCC functions will be a matter on which the combined authority and/or its constituent councils must agree.
I can also reassure noble Lords that in order for the mayor of a combined authority area to take on PCC functions, the Secretary of State will be required to lay an order setting out the detail of how PCC functions will be transferred to the mayor, and Parliament will have the opportunity to fully consider this. With these explanations, I hope that the noble Lord will feel happy to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, I thank the Minister. I and my colleagues warmly welcome the assurance she has been giving us—she repeated what she said earlier—because we regard the way in which the Bill will provide for “robust scrutiny”, which I think was the Minister’s phrase, as absolutely critical to its success. We welcome any discussions that can take place before, during and after Report because it is critical to the Bill.
I modestly and tentatively suggest, at this time of night, that when the Minister says that she and the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, are the “we” who have decided that they do not want to have elected members looking at this, they are not all the people of Greater Manchester. We have to be careful in this House about assuming that, because there has been no attempt yet to look at this in the wider community, somehow the leaders of party groups in particular areas can speak for the whole population of that area.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I want to clarify that the point I made was that we in Greater Manchester—not me and the noble Lord, Lord Smith, but we as elected members, as I was—did not want additional layers of bureaucracy or tiers of government.
Lord Teverson
Perhaps I could intervene on that to say: but of course not. The people who tend to be involved do not like the boat being rocked, which is part of the problem. The establishment of a political area are the last people who would want greater accountability through another body. Regrettably, that is the way in which politics works: we are defensive about our own seats of power, and that is the danger of this proposal. I apologise to my noble friend Lord Tyler.
Lord Tyler
I think I am still responding; I hope that is right. I think the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, is in a major constitutional confusion on this. You cannot have both sides, the mayor and the constituent authority, exerting executive authority in some form without, in the words of the Minister, effective, accountable democracy—I think that was her phrase.
The time is late, and I am not suggesting that we have the perfect solution. I have already said that this is our first attempt to do this, and maybe we can develop a better one. However, I say to those who are opposing our proposal that, if they are seriously saying that the governance of London is somehow defective and therefore we cannot look at it as a proper model for what should go in this Bill for major conurbations in other parts of the country, and that somehow the people of the north do not deserve the same degree of democratic control over the executive, I wish them to say so publicly.
For the time being, I suggest to the Minister that we should look more carefully at the way in which a mayor is held to account. In those circumstances, and with the assurance that she has given us that we will return to this on Report, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, just before we conclude this aspect of the Bill, I confirm that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, is actually right. Secondly, to say that the London arrangements are not right for other places is not to say that those arrangements are defective but, rather, to say that what suits London does not necessarily suit other places.