Baroness Williams of Trafford
Main Page: Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative - Life peer)Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts
Lord Woolmer of Leeds (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, support the amendments, but for one additional reason: that a great deal of the implementation of the Bill will depend on secondary legislation and a series of deals, each one of which, as I understand it, will be set out and agreed by both Houses in secondary legislation. As there will be a range of such deals, concerned with different parts of the country and involving different arrangements, it is enormously important that this is pulled together each year so that Parliament as well as the public and the press can understand how it is progressing and how it all makes sense put together. Individual pieces of secondary legislation are fine; it is about understanding the pattern that emerges. Rather than it being simply a series of individual deals, we should look at what they add up to. Do they add up to a pattern of devolution that makes sense across the country? From the point of view of Parliament, to have an annual stocktaking on that element would be extremely helpful.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have made points on these amendments. I think that we are seeking the same ends but perhaps by a slightly different approach, as I will outline.
Amendment 1 would insert a new clause which places a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to provide annual reports to Parliament setting out information about devolution deals which have been agreed and those in discussion. Amendment 2 would add a new requirement that all Bills are to be accompanied by a “devolution statement”. Noble Lords have heard me say a number of times that the Government are open to discussing devolution proposals with all places. We have been clear that our approach is for areas to have conversations with us about the powers and budgets they want to be devolved to them so that they can grow their local economies and improve the competitiveness and productivity of the area. The importance of this cannot be overstated. As the Chancellor said in the Budget, the great economic challenge we face is on productivity. It is by addressing that challenge that we will ensure that Britain is what we want it to be—the most prosperous major economy in the world by the 2030s. Devolution deals are one of the most important levers for generating growth and delivering this aim.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. The process undergone by Greater Manchester, Norwich, Cornwall and other places can act as a learning tool for small seaside towns which I agree absolutely may not, in the early stages, have the capacity or capability to think about what might be appropriate. We learn from others and this is an important process.
The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, referred to our discussion on Cumbria. Either myself or my noble friend Lord Heseltine—or indeed both of us if we can manage to get our diaries free on the same day—are looking forward to meeting with Cumbrian representatives to discuss what I thought were some very constructive points raised by the noble Lord in the meeting.
The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, talked about the four reasons why devolution is not pursued. We understand and share the noble Lord’s analysis of why devolution can be slow or non-existent, and he gave a very pertinent example which I recognise from my local government days. However, where we differ is that I doubt whether these proposals for annual reports and statements are an effective means of challenging either silo working in Whitehall or the disruption, fear of difference and nervousness at the local level. The strong drive given by the Bill, backed by the early devolution of major powers and budgets, thus creating a whole culture of devolution, is the best way forward, not annual reports which may themselves become prescriptive, or at least perceived by local areas as a direction from the Secretary of State. Given those points, I hope that the noble Lord will feel happy to withdraw his amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of the two amendments before us, with of course the exception of the Minister. We heard from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, about the importance of not doing things piecemeal, and the pertinent point, reiterated by my noble friend Lady Hollis, that if no general principles are laid down, an annual report would at least help smaller authorities to understand what the parameters are in practice. We also heard the passionate commitment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, to the Bill, but he described these amendments as practical and sensible and a powerful antidote to the prospect of government from the centre drawing back the thrust of devolution. My noble friend Lord Warner talked about help with laggards, and said that the amendments would help us to understand the pattern. My noble friend Lord Liddle does a great selling job for Cumbria, which I hope it appreciates.
I say to the Minister that none of this would stop the “come and have a conversation” approach that the Government are pursuing. If anything, it should aid that process because it would alert those who have not yet engaged to the prospects—what is actually going on around the scene. This is a very positive contribution. Of course, nothing in these amendments is in conflict with Amendments 33 and 70, which will be moved in due course. Indeed, we can see those reports as a component of the annual report, but not sufficient.
I hope I did not say that Greater Manchester would not need to rely on Clause 6 at all. My point was that not all of the deal is dependent on the use of Clause 6. If the extra reporting that the noble Baroness is talking about is tied to that Clause 6 order process, it would not necessarily embrace all of what is going on in practice.
I had hoped that we could agree on this. The amendments are genuinely meant to help the Bill but the Government have made their position clear. On the basis that Amendment 2 is consequential on Amendment 1, I certainly would like to test the opinion of the House on Amendment 1.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, first, the Bill confers a discretion on the Secretary of State which is not restricted in any way whatever. Therefore, to say that this Bill is restrictive and that the amendments are intended to increase the discretion does not seem to be in accordance with the wording. Secondly, there are two powers in proposed new Section 107B, under Clause 1, providing for the election of a mayor under subsections (1) and (3). For some reason, these amendments apply only to subsection (1). That is rather strange. There may be a reason for that and if so, I would be glad to hear it.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, Amendment 3 would set out in the Bill that the introduction of a mayor for a combined authority area would not be a precondition for the transfer of functions to combined authorities. We had a very lively debate on this amendment in Committee and we have had another very lively debate today. In that context, I am not surprised that we are considering the amendment.
I have been very clear on the Government’s policy on the devolution of far-reaching powers to local areas. I think we can all agree that if areas are to have such powers they must adopt strong governance and accountability arrangements. As my noble friend Lord Heseltine said, it is not for us to come up with the proposals. It is a bottom-up process, and we want to hear from areas what their proposals are for the powers and budgets they want devolved to them, and the governance arrangements that they think are necessary to support such devolution. As my noble friend Lord Deben said, we need something new.
What sort of governance arrangements will be necessary—the scale and scope of the powers—will depend on the sort of proposals put forward. Last week, in his Budget speech in the other place, the Chancellor was very clear when he stated:
“The historic devolution that we have agreed with Greater Manchester in return for a directly elected Mayor is available to other cities that want to go down a similar path”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/7/15; col. 329.]
Our policy is therefore clear and this amendment is directly at odds with it.
We have this policy for good reasons. We have it because where there is devolution of the ambition and scale as in Greater Manchester, there needs to be a clear, single point of accountability. People need to know who is responsible for the major decisions in their area—decisions which will affect their daily lives.
My noble friend Lord Deben highlighted the importance of there being real change in local government. That is why we committed so clearly in our manifesto to legislate to implement the Greater Manchester deal and to offer similar deals to other cities that choose to have a mayor. The Bill, with its provisions on mayors, allows us to implement the Greater Manchester deal and fulfil our manifesto commitment. The amendment would, in fact, frustrate it.
As other noble Lords have said, mayoral governance for cities is a proven model that works around the world. It provides a single point of accountability. As my noble friend Lord Deben said, it has made a big difference to Bristol. When the office of the Mayor of London was created there was not much excitement across the country. As either my noble friend Lord Heseltine or my noble friend Lord Deben said—I cannot remember who it was—it is now seen as a force for progress in our capital.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
Is it not the case, however, that the election of the Mayor of London was preceded by a referendum where the people of London chose to have government in London and an elected mayor—by, if I remember correctly, a two-thirds majority?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That is correct. I am making a point not about referenda but about the profile and remit of the Mayor of London and how it is now something that people with a very high-profile background in both local and national government wish to go for.
I must say at this point that a mayoral model is not an imposition: it has to be agreed. No order can be made to transfer powers and create new governance arrangements without the consent of all authorities involved. The Secretary of State is not imposing a mayor on anyone, but he wants to see accountability proportionate to the scale of the devolution of powers. That we have this offer does not preclude us from engaging with all areas, cities, towns and counties to consider their proposals for devolution. Quite the contrary: we are ready to have conversations with anyone. The Bill does not limit in any way the devolution proposals that areas can make, and the Government will consider any and all proposals for greater local powers. In short, our clear policy is that the Government,
“intends to support towns and counties to play their part in growing the economy, offering them the opportunity to agree devolution deals, and providing local people with the levers they need to boost growth”.
That was made clear in the Budget.
Lord Grocott
If what the Minister says is accurate in practice—that any proposal from below, or however you want to describe it, is entirely up to local initiative and will go ahead if there is agreement—presumably she can agree with Amendment 3. She is arguing that it is basically a permissive thing: that mayors may or may not be there, dependent on local initiatives. So I assume from what she said that she would not be in any way opposed to Amendment 3.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I will address the noble Lord’s point shortly.
Amendment 4 would insert a new subsection into new Section 107B to allow the Secretary of State to refuse to make an order providing for there to be a mayor if the proposal put forward by the area does not provide sufficient democratic accountability, does not have the support of local authority electors or would risk the proper functioning of local government in the area. Not only is this unnecessary, given that the Secretary of State always has a judgment as to whether to make an order; it does not reflect the context in which the provisions of the Bill will be used: to implement bespoke devolution deals agreed with areas—to be precise, agreed with those democratically elected to represent the area and who are accountable to it through the ballot box. It would be quite wrong to have considerations for devolution deals that in some way sought to have the Secretary of State second-guessing those local democratically elected representatives, or turning discussion of the deal into some sort of tick-box exercise.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
Is the Minister saying, therefore, that the factors in proposed paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) in Amendment 4 would be irrelevant considerations that the Secretary of State would not be entitled to take into account?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I am saying that it will be an agreement between the Secretary of State and local electors that will determine what the deal looks like, if that helps.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I am sorry—combined authority areas. I apologise; this debate has gone on for a while.
I wish to address some of the points that noble Lords raised. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, talked about the mayor not having capacity to fulfil all functions. As my noble friend Lord Heseltine said, that is common practice in cities across the world which seem to manage to fulfil this perfectly well. However, the mayor will have power to delegate functions to a deputy mayor or officers to ensure that responsibilities are properly fulfilled. Crucially, regardless of whether a particular power is delegated, the mayor is, and is widely seen to be, accountable for the exercise of that power.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, also talked about areas coming forward with their own ideas on governance. As I have said on many an occasion, we are ready to have a conversation with any area about its governance proposals alongside its proposals for power to be devolved to it. The governance needs to be proportionate to the powers, delivering accountability and the necessary transparency.
The noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Shipley, asked the crucial question: what is something less? As I said, the form of governance needs to be proportionate to the scope and nature of the power being devolved. Where less than major powers are devolved, because that is all an area wishes for, the existing governance of an area may be appropriate. Again, depending on the nature of powers devolved, a combined authority, with the governance combined authorities have today, may be appropriate—that is, governance by the leaders of the area collectively. However, with major powers there needs to be a single point of accountability, and that is provided by a directly elected individual.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb
Does the Minister agree that, when you have this much power vested in one person, you also need a very good system of accountability and scrutiny? Here in London that has not happened enough. As a member of the London body, I know that we have not had enough powers. Is that something the Government are thinking about?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Baroness’s question is the subject of later amendments. Certainly, the London model is not being considered in Greater Manchester. However, during the Bill’s passage, there has been a lot of discussion on the need to strengthen scrutiny.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Before the Minister moves on, will she clarify what is included in “major powers”? What are major powers and less than major powers or minor powers? That is the dividing line in this matter.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
As noble Lords will see, an example of major powers is devolution for Greater Manchester. That is an example of a suite of major powers.
I should like to make some progress. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, referred to Amendment 3, which would obstruct our policy of allowing major powers to be devolved to a city because there is a necessary single point of accountability—that is, the mayor. The noble Lord also said that people should have a referendum to decide whether to have a metro mayor. We recognise that in the past some cities have rejected the opportunity to elect a mayor. This time it is an entirely different proposition. It is about putting in place a devolution deal which the democratically elected representatives of the place have agreed with government. Part of that deal is the necessity for robust local governance for the new devolved powers, and for a powerful point of accountability such as a mayor. It is for the elected representatives of an area who have a democratic mandate to decide, in discussions with government, whether they wish to introduce a mayor and benefit from major devolved powers.
Lord Scriven
If, for example, my own area of Sheffield decides to go for this with a mayor and it is then not deemed to be as successful as some of the proponents want, and the public and the politicians in that area wish to move away from the mayoral model, what would be the procedure to do that—to prove that it was not an imposition, that actually it was a deal, it was voluntary and could be withdrawn from by both the public and the politicians of that area?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, if a local area agreed a process with government and it was done through a parliamentary process, that local area would then have to go back to Parliament in some way and say that the local electors did not wish to have this any more. I am not going to stand here and prescribe a particular set of circumstances in which a particular area may not wish what it had agreed with government to continue to be the case. Having agreed it through a parliamentary process, it would have to go back through that parliamentary process and explain why the local electors no longer wished for it to be the case.
The noble Baroness, Lady Janke, talked about predetermined grants in envelopes. As I say, I have spent the entire Bill demonstrating that this is not the case. Nothing is predetermined. That has caused confusion in some ways in that there has been constant pushback on me to prescribe, and we are not prescribing. I hope that with these explanations the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Shipley
The Minister said two separate things. The first was that it was for local areas to come up with proposals for devolution and the Government were keen to hear what those were. Secondly, she said that to have major powers devolved requires a mayor, and she gave Greater Manchester as an example. Does the Minister have a list of the powers that can be devolved without an elected mayor and those that can be devolved only if there is an elected mayor? It seems absolutely central to this issue because at the moment it is not clear—certainly not to me and, I suspect, others in your Lordships’ House—exactly what the Government’s offer is.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I do not and will not have a list. As I have said repeatedly, what powers are devolved will be up to agreement between local areas and the Secretary of State.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, this has been an extensive and good debate and the time moves on, so forgive me if I do not respond to each point that noble Lords have made, whether it was as a trip through history about what has happened to elected mayors or the stage that we have reached today. The problems with the London system, some of the time, and the difficulties that other areas have found were mentioned.
I would like to challenge the proposition that the amendments are wrecking amendments. I am bound to say to the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, that that really is not the case. It was not the intent and is not their substance. If we look at the thrust of all the amendments that are before us today and will be on Wednesday, they are overwhelmingly about trying to improve the Bill and achieve the very thing that he wants and campaigns for. It is unhelpful to characterise these amendments as wrecking when, in total, we are trying to improve the Bill so that devolution can be delivered across the country.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked the pertinent questions about major powers—what is in and what is out—and of course we got the usual answer. I do not think that anybody sees it as a credible response to say that nothing is being imposed on people because the Bill is a framework Bill, in circumstances where the Government make it absolutely clear from the start that you can get certain powers only if you have an elected mayor. That is not a process of not imposing anything on anybody. It is making sure that the price paid is very clear up front, in some circumstances. It is very unclear in other circumstances what price will be asked, depending on what powers are available. I am bound to say that whether we are in favour of or against elected mayors instinctively, we did not see it as a ladder up which budding leaders could climb—and even less so a retirement job for ex-Cabinet Ministers. I did not think that that was the process we were involved in today.
The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, made a powerful speech reiterating his passion for devolution and what it could lead to. We support all that but he himself said that if somebody comes up with something it will be considered, so seemingly from his point of view there is not an inevitable imposition of an elected mayor. The noble Lord may feel that something credible would not come up, and he may or may not be right. But even he seemed to recognise that there should be scope, which is effectively what Amendment 3 is seeking. It may be, in the terms used by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, that the wording is imperfect but then it is the job of government at Third Reading to tie that up.
“(1) The term of office of a mayor is to be four years.
(2) The first election for the return of a mayor is to take place on the first day of ordinary elections of councillors of a constituent council to take place after the end of the period of 6 months beginning with the day on which the order under section 107A comes into force.
(3) Subsequent elections for the return of a mayor are to take place in every fourth year thereafter on the same day as the ordinary election of councillors of that constituent council.
(4) But this paragraph has effect subject to any provision made under paragraph 2.
(5) In this paragraph “constituent council” means—
(a) a county council the whole or any part of whose area is within the area of the combined authority, or(b) a district council whose area is within the area of the combined authority.”
Baroness Williams of Trafford
Amendment 5 sets a default term of office for an elected mayor of a combined authority area and a default date of the election for the return of an elected mayor for a combined authority area. Amendment 8 is a minor and technical amendment.
As the Bill currently stands, the term of office and the date of election are set by order by the Secretary of State. Following the comments of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and an amendment brought forward by the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Beecham, in Committee, we wish to include default provisions in the Bill to apply in cases where specific orders are not made.
The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee suggested that the Bill’s order-making powers should be limited to specifying the timing and frequency of metro mayor elections only at the initial establishment of the office of mayor. We do not believe it right to limit the order-making power in this way, as I shall explain, but to provide some assurance that with Amendment 5 we are following the precedent in the Local Government Act 2000, which was referred to by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It provides in the Bill default timings of mayoral elections and the mayoral term. Equally, to retain the flexibility needed, the Secretary of State will be able to make specific orders under paragraphs 2(a) and 2(c) of new Schedule 5B to the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. The amendments providing for the default position in no way curtail the scope of the order-making powers in Schedule 5B.
The ability for the Secretary of State to set the timings of elections by order allows for the fact that there is currently no single pattern of local elections across the country with which a new mayoral election may be synchronised. It also recognises that devolution deals will be bespoke, and therefore it is possible that different arrangements may be sought by, and agreed with, different areas. For example, an area may wish its mayoral election to be held in a year when there are no council elections, but another area may wish to combine mayoral and council elections. Again, for example, while we expect that probably most deals with metro mayors will have mayoral terms of four years, it is possible that an area may wish to have, say, five-year terms similar to the parliamentary term.
Returning to the default position that we are providing, it reflects that in general a mayoral term will be four years and the election will take place at the same time as council elections in the combined authority area. Hence, under the default provisions, the first election of the mayor will take place at the next local council elections not less than six months after the order creating the mayoral combined authority comes into force, and elections will be every four years thereafter.
Amendment 8 is a minor and technical amendment to ensure that the provision in the Bill applies equally to the disqualification of an individual in respect of their being, or being elected as, a mayor, as well as more specifically in relation to their being, or being elected as, the mayor for that area.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I will address some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, in the course of moving his amendment. He said that you cannot get rid of mayors. In any elected office that I can think of, you can get rid of leaders or back-bench councillors in two ways: first, through the party’s electoral or selection arrangements, and, secondly, by the ballot box. Therefore, just as with local authorities, so with the office of mayor there is the ability to get rid of the mayor.
The noble Lord also talked about the power of recall. Again, referencing it back to local authorities, there is not a power of recall within local authority arrangements, either. Obviously, they are talking about this in the House of Commons: there is not a power of recall in local government. The build-up is incredible, but later on in the debate we will talk about scrutiny—and there is an ability to scrutinise both local authority leaders and an elected mayor.
The noble Lord’s third point was on limiting a mayor to two terms of office. First, in this country there are no other arrangements that replicate that, but I thought of two leaders, one of whom I will name, the other of whom I will not. Richard Leese is one of them; he has been leader for almost 20 years now, and his continuity within Manchester City Council has enhanced the city greatly. I will not name another local authority leader, who was in power for 35 years; I do not think that a single year of his leadership was beneficial to the local area—which is why I will not name him. Therefore, I can see that that could be true in some areas. However, it is also for local electors and political parties to make that change if they so wish.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, does the noble Baroness recall the leader of a council not too far away from Manchester who led the council for some 50 years before retiring at the age of 85 to make way for a younger successor who was 76?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I do not think that we are thinking of the same person, but that is very interesting. I thank the noble Lord and ask him not to press his amendments.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 10 and 13 in this group. Broadly speaking, whereas the amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, are about securing the approval of the combined authorities, ours require the approval of the overview and scrutiny committee. As we said in Committee, it is much better for that committee to do it, for three reasons. First, it is independent of the mayor and of the combined authority. Secondly, it can be objective and can hold a hearing in public to assess the suitability of a proposed person, thus giving real effect to the principles of scrutiny. Thirdly, it can satisfy itself that the person selected can represent the interests of all parts of its combined authority area, which can sometimes be very large.
In a sense we debated this in Committee, and I listened carefully to the Minister’s answer at the time. I am not convinced that it is right to give the powers of what could appear to be patronage to a single individual. Nor am I convinced that the members of a combined authority, who were appointed as opposed to being directly elected to it, should simply be given the power to decide or to agree who the deputy should be. I would be much happier if we had an independent process which the overview and scrutiny process would look after. I therefore look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to the point about how you ensure that those who hold very senior, responsible jobs, which are very well remunerated, can maintain the confidence of the general public.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, these amendments are all about requiring members of the combined authority or overview and scrutiny committee to be involved in actions which are, quite rightly, those of the elected mayor.
I will first speak to Amendment 11, which would insert the requirement that the combined authority must consent to functions of the combined authority being exercised by the mayor. I do not disagree with what the amendment seeks to achieve. There are a number of circumstances in which an order could be made to make a function of the combined authority exercisable only by the mayor. Our intention is that in all circumstances the combined authority must give consent—or, if this is at the initial stage of setting up the combined authority, the constituent councils must do so.
First, when an order is made to create the post of mayor and transfer powers to the combined authority, in this circumstance nothing can happen without the consent of the combined authority or the local councils involved. Clearly, consent would not be given if the order proposed to give a mayor powers with which the councils or combined authority were not content. Secondly, when an order is made to transfer further powers to a combined authority, similarly, such an order would require consent from all the local councils.
Finally, and notwithstanding our intention, I accept that there could be, at least in theory, a subsequent order to make an existing function of the combined authority a function exercisable only by the mayor. We are ready to accept that any such lacuna in the legislation should be addressed and we are minded to accept this amendment. However, the drafting will need further consideration and, if noble Lords will allow, I will come back to it at Third Reading.
Amendments 9 and 10 would require the mayor to obtain the consent of the combined authority or, in the case of Amendment 10, the overview and scrutiny committee before appointing the deputy mayor. For mayoral governance to be effective, the mayor and the deputy mayor must be able to work together and the mayor must have confidence in his or her deputy. Moreover, the mayor’s choice of deputy mayor is very restricted. As provided for in the Bill, the deputy mayor must be a member of the combined authority, so the mayor is already choosing from a small group of people.
In practice, a mayor will consult some of or all the members of a combined authority about a deputy mayoral appointment, but it would be wrong for the members of the combined authority or the overview and scrutiny committee to have the ultimate say over who the deputy mayor is. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, talked about Greater Manchester and he is absolutely correct that that is an interim arrangement.
The mayor, with a clear mandate, needs to be able to have the say over who among the members of the combined authority will be the deputy and who will assist him or her in delivering what he or she has promised the voters. Giving the combined authority or overview and scrutiny committee the final say as to whether a person can or cannot be the deputy opens up the possibility of appointments which would hinder the mayor and prevent the mayor and deputy working together effectively and smoothly for a common purpose. These amendments are therefore not a sensible check or balance on the exercise of executive functions and I invite noble Lords not to press them.
Amendments 12, 13 and 14 would require a mayor to consult the combined authority or, in the case of Amendment 13, the overview and scrutiny committee before delegating a general function to the deputy mayor, another member or an officer. The provisions in the Bill relating to delegation align with the policy for a local authority mayor or leader, who may arrange for the discharge of functions by members of the executive or officers of the authority. Although the mayor may delegate functions, he or she remains accountable for any actions taken and is accountable directly to the electorate.
I understand the thoughts behind these amendments—that is, to ensure that a mayor is indeed effectively and transparently held to account and that, while there is the capacity for strong executive action, equally the right checks and balances are in place to give confidence in that respect and ensure accountability. However, such checks and balances will not be delivered if executive and non-executive actions are confused by involving the members of the combined authority in decisions such as how the mayor performs his or her role.
Later, we will discuss the appropriate strong and transparent overview and scrutiny to ensure sensible and robust checks and balances on the actions of the mayor and the combined authority. It is entirely right that the mayor is held to account, but he or she must also be able to deliver effectively on the commitments made to the electorate, and these amendments could be severely detrimental to that. With those explanations, I hope that noble Lords will agree not to press their amendments.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for accepting the principle of Amendment 11 and I look forward to working with her to agree a form of words when we get to Third Reading.
I am slightly disappointed at the response to some of the other amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord McKenzie—in particular, about the delegation of functions. Given the huge scale of the authorities that we are talking about and the huge responsibilities which it is hoped will be devolved, it seems to me that this is a rather different role from that of a council leader or chief executive or even an elected mayor in the authorities as presently constituted. However, I will not press those amendments and will rely on the noble Baroness’s undertaking to revert to the subject of Amendment 11 at Third Reading. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)
My Lords, not having worked in local government but having sat on boards that involved public money, such as that of the Royal Opera House, I very much like to see open debate. On the other hand, I think the point that the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, made is very pertinent. Sometimes, if people cannot think outside the box, as we had to when the Royal Opera House was faced with closure, what tends to happen is that the things that the proponents of this amendment want can be completely thwarted: discussion can become more closed because people are frightened of saying what needs to be said, as it will create such a storm. I am not going to come down either way on this but I see both points. As somebody who has sat on a board and wrestled with this, I reiterate that I understand the point that the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, made.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, Amendment 14A seeks to ensure that the public have full and free access to combined authority meetings and documents and meetings of officers regarding the discharge of functions. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, put it absolutely right when he said that the same rules must apply to local authorities as do to combined authorities.
The noble Lord also asked whether devolution deals would be done under the gaze of the public and cameras. I imagine that, when a deal gets to the stage of a combined authority, that decision-making process would be in full view of the public and may even be recorded in some circumstances. Certainly that is allowed now under the rules of 2014. The process of developing a deal would involve a range of discussions, as the noble Lord will appreciate, between members and Ministers and between officers and officials. Crucially, decisions on whether or not to agree to anything will, as I said, be formal decisions of the combined authority; and—devolving down further—the constituent councils would have to agree to it as well, subject to the openness and access requirements applicable to councils and combined authorities.
The Local Government Act 1972, which applies to a combined authority just as it applies to a local authority, provides that all meetings of a combined authority must be open to the public except in limited and defined circumstances. A meeting of a combined authority, as with all other council meetings, may be closed to the public only in two circumstances: first, if the presence of the public is likely to result in the authority breaching a legal obligation about the keeping of confidential information; and, secondly, if the authority decides, by passing a resolution of its members, that exempt information, for example information relating to the financial affairs of a particular person, would likely be disclosed. The normal rules about access to agendas and documents that apply to local authorities apply to meetings of a combined authority—that is, to meetings of all or some of the members of the combined authority in their role as members of the combined authority to discharge the functions of the combined authority. Moreover, the Conservative-led coalition Government made new regulations in 2014 to make clear that a combined authority is required to allow any member of the public or press to take photographs, film, audio record and report on all public meetings. This openness ensures that combined authorities are genuinely accountable to the local people whom they serve.
The amendment seeks to extend this to give the public the right to attend meetings of officers. It would not be appropriate for the public to have a right of access to meetings of officers of the authority and would be wholly impractical. My noble friend Lord Heseltine and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, made the point that, far from opening up options and discussions, it would seek to restrict them and close them down. It is right that officials give advice in public. I can think of one occasion—the annual budget setting—where the finance officer has to stand up and say whether or not the budget is sustainable. It is absolutely right that that is done in a public forum. However, to invade officers’ meetings would be wrong. It would not happen in a council, and given that these provisions mirror the provisions for local authorities, why should it happen in a combined authority? Officers cannot discharge functions of a combined authority, in the same way as officers collectively cannot discharge the functions of a local authority. In a combined authority, as in a local authority, functions are discharged by the members, committees or sub-committees of members, or can be delegated to particular officers. It would be wholly impractical for the public to attend officers’ meetings. Officers meet continually through the day to discuss issues, prepare advice for members and implement the decisions that members have taken.
I rather like my noble friend Lord Brooke’s suggestion of 12 noon decision-making. I think we would get rather a shock if that came into your Lordships’ House. On that note, I ask noble Lords to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Scriven
Before the Minister sits down, can I just ask one question? Is it not the case that any advice that is given, which is written down or in an email, can be requested under freedom of information legislation? What is the difference between that and debate being curtailed by allowing the public to hear the advice being given? They can request it anyway through a freedom of information request.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, there is an informal process for discussions and there is a formal process. If something was written down in an email, it would, barring some restrictions on access to information, be disclosable under a freedom of information request.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, and in particular to my noble friend Lord Scriven for pointing out the importance of the Freedom of Information Act and its provisions in this respect.
I share some of the concerns of the noble Lords, Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Heseltine. I understand exactly the points that are being made. However, the Secretary of State would, as part of this amendment should it succeed, be able to state in regulations how this would be managed.
This is an extremely important issue. This amendment is not asking for commercially sensitive matters to be revealed when it would not be in the public interest to do so or for informal day-to-day meetings with officers to be included. We are saying that the Secretary of State should recognise that the accountability of an elected mayor does matter. The Secretary of State should therefore regulate to ensure proper access to meetings and information to avoid a slide into greater secrecy in decision-making.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, said that the same rules should apply as for local government—if I recall correctly what he said. I understand that perspective, but we are talking about a single elected person. There is no precedent for the scale of the roles to which they are about to be elected, for the reason that existing mayors in some of our cities and towns have more limited powers. Here, there is to be significant devolution of power from central government across Whitehall and Westminster. There is not even the scrutiny system that is provided within London through the GLA—and we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, earlier about how the London system does not work terribly well. So I am still very concerned by this situation.
The public right of access to meetings and information must not be diminished as a consequence of this Bill. That is the risk that the Bill introduces. As a consequence of that, I beg leave to test the opinion of the House.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, the amendment requires that on page 19, line 10, we should insert:
“An order under sub-paragraph (2) must include provision for an appointment process for any other person who may exercise any PCC functions of the mayor”.
This is a straightforward issue. The amendment deals with the important role of the PCC taken on by the mayor and the extent to which its functions can be passed to others. It seeks to ensure that there is a proper appointments process to put that into effect. I beg to move.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for being so brief in moving the amendment. As he said, it seeks to insert a new provision into new Schedule 5C to ensure that the Government must provide, by order, an appointment process for any other person who may exercise any of the PCC functions of the mayor.
The amendment is not necessary because the Government have already committed on the Floor of this House to apply Schedule 1 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 to metro mayor areas by order where PCC functions are being transferred. Paragraphs 9 to 12 of that schedule set out an appointments process for senior posts below a PCC, including for the post of deputy PCC. This involves the scrutiny of any proposed appointment by a police and crime panel. I reiterate that we intend to apply these provisions to metro mayors by order to ensure that such appointments are properly scrutinised in the same way. The role of the dedicated police and crime panel will, of course, continue.
However, it will almost certainly be necessary to amend these provisions to some extent before they can be applied directly to a particular metro mayor area, given the different structures and posts which might exist in different areas, hence our proposal to implement this by order. I wish to be clear that we intend that there will be an appointments process for senior posts that will be based on that set out in Schedule 1 to the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011. All posts other than that of the deputy PCC mayor, and which support discharging the mayor’s PCC functions, will be subject to the standard local government requirement that appointments must be made on merit, as set out in Section 7 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989. This requirement currently applies to all appointments made by PCCs other than the post of deputy PCC, which may be a political appointment, albeit still subject to scrutiny by the panel. Appointments to all other posts below mayor on policing matters would have to be made on merit alone, and appointments to senior posts will additionally be subject to scrutiny by a police scrutiny panel.
I hope that reassures the noble Lord and that he feels content to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for that much longer explanation than mine in moving the amendment. It is perfectly satisfactory and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, in moving Amendment 16, I will speak to the others in this group. Amendments 21 to 24 seek to insert new provisions into new Section 107F to clarify how the council tax requirement is calculated and precept issued in respect of mayoral combined authorities.
Amendment 21 requires that issuing the precept will always be a function of the mayor acting on behalf of the combined authority. Amendments 22 and 23 ensure that the Secretary of State can by order modify the application of Chapter 4 or 4ZA of Part 1 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992, where that chapter is being applied to a mayoral combined authority, in order to provide for the specified outcomes in respect of calculation of the council tax requirement and issuing of the precept.
Amendment 24 extends the Secretary of State’s powers to make provision in an order in respect of how the council tax requirement will be calculated where the functions of a mayor include PCC functions. In these cases, we will require there to be separate components of the council tax requirement in respect of the mayor’s PCC functions and the mayor’s general functions. Amendment 24 also requires that the calculation of the component of the council tax requirement that relates to PCC functions is to be regarded as a PCC function exercisable only by the mayor.
By requiring that there is a separate component of the precept for PCC functions, we will ensure that the council tax referendum criteria can be applied separately to the council tax element of police funding, thereby ensuring that government has full flexibility to apply distinct council tax referendum principles for the police component of a mayoral combined authority precept in the same way as it currently does for all other PCCs across England and Wales. This would allow a mayoral combined authority the flexibility to hold a council tax referendum on the level of funding for the police specifically. These amendments will ensure broad consistency with the PCC model, in that the mayor will calculate the element of the council tax requirement that relates to PCC functions as a PCC does now, and this calculation will be subject to challenge by the police scrutiny panel. Amendments 16, 17 and 18 are consequential amendments to new Schedule 5C to reflect these changes.
Amendment 16 would ensure that only the mayor can calculate the component of the council tax requirement which relates to policing and that this function cannot therefore be delegated to a deputy PCC mayor or any other individual. This is consistent with the PCC model whereby the PCC cannot delegate such responsibilities to a deputy. Amendments 17 and 18 clarify that the Secretary of State’s power to provide directions to a mayor acting on behalf of a mayoral combined authority in respect of police budgets applies only to the calculation of the component of the precept relating to PCC functions and not to the component relating to general functions. With this explanation, I beg to move.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, Amendments 19, 20 and 25 make minor and technical amendments to Clause 4 and Schedule 2. They remove a reference in the Bill that is relevant to Section 107E of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. The reference would have provided that an order made by the Secretary of State may amend, apply, disapply, repeal or revoke any police and crime commissioner enactment. Amendment 25 removes the definition from new Section 107F inserted into the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. The definition of “modify” to include amendment or repeal in relation to Part 1 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 where the precepting authority is a mayoral combined authority is no longer necessary. These references have been removed as the express power to amend or repeal, and the amendment to the definition of “modify”, are no longer needed given that Amendment 82 amends Section 117 to include a general power to amend or repeal. I beg to move.
“(1A) The function of issuing precepts under Chapter 4 of Part 1 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 in respect of mayoral functions is to be a function exercisable only by the mayor acting on behalf of the combined authority.”
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, in moving Amendment 26, I shall speak to all the other amendments in the group. They are about streamlining, fast-tracking and giving greater flexibility in the setting up of combined authorities or the making of changes to an existing combined authority. Certain of the amendments also give greater flexibility in establishing or changing economic prosperity boards, which can also be established under the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. Specifically, Amendments 26, 27, 62 and 77 modify the processes for establishing a combined authority in order to provide, if circumstances warrant it, a fast-track process that, while quicker, will maintain all the necessary essential safeguards.
The current process for creating a combined authority under the 2009 Act is lengthy. Past experience shows that it can take well over a year even to reach the point of the order being made, and that is before the real implementation begins. The process involves duplication, particularly where the setting up of a combined authority is agreed as part of the conversations and discussions surrounding a devolution deal. These amendments provide a streamlined process for creating combined authorities where the risks of duplication are minimised—a streamlined process that in particular can be used where local areas have agreed to have combined authorities as part of the devolution deals which they have agreed with the Government. This streamlined process will allow them to implement the deal as quickly as possible without getting tied up in further administrative processes that do no more than duplicate the conversations and discussions that have led to the deal.
For example, a number of councils agree as part of a deal to the establishment of a combined authority. They have provided the Secretary of State with sufficient information and evidence for the Secretary of State to undertake the statutory tests: that is, to conclude that creating the combined authority is likely to improve the exercise of statutory functions in the combined authority’s area, to have regard to the need to reflect the identities and interests of local communities, and to secure effective and convenient local government. Finally, all the councils in the area of the proposed combined authority consent to the combined authority. In such circumstances, the fast-track process will enable the Secretary of State to proceed to seek Parliament’s approval of the necessary draft order once he has fulfilled a statutory duty to consult such persons as he considers appropriate. His decision as to who is appropriate will of course have to be taken in accordance with the well-established principles of administrative law—to act reasonably having regard to all relevant considerations.
With this streamlined process, councils no longer have to undertake the lengthy process of developing a governance review and preparing a scheme. This is not because the substance of these steps is unimportant but because that substance will have been undertaken in a different way, and the guarantee that this is so is provided by the statutory requirements of the Secretary of State to apply in accordance with administrative law the statutory tests and the statutory consultation.
These amendments also provide that where the fast-track process is not being followed and councils are developing a governance review and scheme, the process can still be more streamlined than is currently the case. The current requirement that the Secretary of State undertakes a consultation, including the clear duplication of being required to consult the very authorities that have prepared the scheme, is replaced by simple requirements that the Secretary of State must have regard to the scheme and the councils must consent to the combined authority. The Secretary of State still has the option of consulting if he considers it necessary. These amendments therefore facilitate the timely implementation of devolution deals, which will be of critical importance to areas being able to respond to the economic challenges and opportunities the country faces today. It is not an option that we have bureaucratic and time-consuming processes slowing the actions needed to grow our economy, improve productivity and increase our competitiveness.
Amendments 63, 64, 65, 76 and 78 provide certain greater flexibility and streamlining aspects of combined authorities and greater flexibility for economic prosperity boards, for which the 2009 Act also provides. Amendment 79 makes a small change to references in Sections 111 and 112 of the 2009 Act. The origin of these amendments is the draft legislative reform order that was laid in Parliament in March this year. In its report of 19 June, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee noted that the Bill and the LRO were operating in the same policy space, and commented that making changes through two separate legislative vehicles progressing at different speeds would present challenges. We have responded to the committee’s comments and by these amendments are now incorporating into this Bill provisions that give effect to those in the draft LRO, and are withdrawing the LRO.
The amendments do three things. First, they enable local authorities that do not have contiguous boundaries to form combined authorities and economic prosperity boards if the statutory tests are met. They also allow the creation, if the statutory tests are met, of combined authorities and economic prosperity boards that have a “doughnut-shaped” area. Secondly, they enable a county council in a two-tier area to be within a combined authority for only part of its area where that area coincides with one or more districts. Thirdly, they provide that minor changes to the funding, constitution or functions of an economic prosperity board can be prompted by the councils asking for such a change.
All these amendments streamline and facilitate putting in place the governance needed to support the devolution of powers to areas, helping areas grow their local economies and improving the efficiency of local public services. I commend them to the House and beg to move Amendment 26.
Lord Tyler (LD)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 62 and 77 in this group. First, I very much appreciate the Minister’s explanation of the reason for this group and I particularly welcome the fact that the Government have moved so quickly to amalgamate the previous draft LRO with the Bill. In my view, that is extremely important.
I think the Minister knows that I serve on the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. As an individual, I very much welcome that she has been able to respond so quickly. However, I think she will also know that this afternoon the committee met especially to look at the latest set of amendments. Amendments 62 and 77, to which I want to draw attention, were in one set of amendments that we looked at today.
I am obviously in some difficulty; I cannot refer to the precise recommendations of the committee because they will be reported to your Lordships’ House tomorrow, which is really my point. It would be quite wrong for us to move on those amendments without having seen the recommendations of your Lordships’ committee. However, I can refer briefly to the importance of these amendments. Amendment 62 would introduce a new clause which would make substantial amendments to the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. It would do so in a way that quite deliberately dilutes the provisions for consultation.
I think all Members of your Lordships’ House who have been following this Bill are well aware that wide consultation, which was a requirement of that previous Act, is central to the acceptance of this Bill in its current form. The dilution of those very important provisions in the 2009 Act seems to me to raise important issues. The Minister has been talking at some length about streamlining and fast-track. I am always a little apprehensive about fast-track streamlining because it usually means a sleight of hand. I fear that in this case that is precisely what is in place. If we are not to have the effective consultation provided for by the previous Act, at the very least we need a full explanation. We have not yet had that and I do not think we can expect to have it until the Minister has had an opportunity of seeing the report from the committee, which will be published tomorrow.
I understand only too well that in the speed with which the department has had to composite—I think that that is the appropriate word—the LRO from the provisions in the Bill, it may well simply have been a mistake that this consultation process has been, in the words of the Minister, streamlined. That raises very important issues that Members who have been following the consideration of this Bill throughout will wish to look at again in the light of the report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Since that will not be available until tomorrow, I hope the Minister will at least agree that there should be, as there can be under the rules of the House, a further debate on these clauses on Wednesday. I certainly would reserve the right to speak. as an individual of course but with the information that will then be available from the committee, when these come before us again on Wednesday. I hope that the Minister will recognise that that is a perfectly appropriate way for the House to proceed.
Lord Woolmer of Leeds
These proposals are enormously important. I hope very much that we will have time to consider them and to reflect, but I see them as potentially extremely helpful, certainly to Yorkshire.
I will ask for clarification on two matters, but I will study the detail more carefully over the next couple of days. First, I assume that these proposals will apply to extending a current combined authority area, as opposed to establishing a de novo combined authority. I assume that they would apply if an existing combined authority area wished to have discussions to extend its boundaries. Secondly, if I understood the Minister correctly—I apologise that I have not read the proposals in the detail I should have—they would enable an existing combined authority to extend its boundaries, either with contiguous shire districts or potentially even to an authority that does not adjoin the existing combined authority; the word “doughnut” was used. It would be helpful for me to understand whether that is the case.
These are enormously important proposals and a lot of people will be extremely interested to understand them. They could be very helpful in making combined authority areas make a lot of sense in economic terms. Some existing combined authorities, while very useful, could do with extension to a degree.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
It might be helpful to noble Lords if I say that Amendments 62 and 77 are expected to be reached on Wednesday. They are after Clause 9. Therefore, there will be an opportunity to discuss them then if noble Lords wish.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about fast-tracking becoming the norm. The amendments have been proposed to enable deals where constituent councils are content to approve deals that are ready, not to rush other areas that might take a bit longer. He also asked what underpins the Secretary of State’s judgment if there is no scheme. It will be the information and the evidence available in the deal. If insufficient information is available for the Secretary of State to make a judgment on whether the tests are met, then the fast-track process cannot be used.
The noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, asked two very useful questions. One was on changing an existing combined authority. The answer is yes, existing combined authorities would be able to be non-contiguous or doughnut-shaped; I am glad he will find that response helpful. He talked about non-adjoining areas. The answer is also yes, that will be possible. I hope that that assists noble Lords.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Before the noble Baroness sits down, could she clarify this? I think she said that we would reach Amendments 62 and 77 on Wednesday. According to the groupings list, they are in the group that we have just discussed.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
My Lords, the amendments would be after Clause 9, so they can be discussed then if noble Lords wish.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
We would be very happy to have a further discussion—it is vital that we do—although we would be squeezed for time on Wednesday with lots of other big issues. I thought from what the noble Baroness said that these amendments are not included in the group that we just discussed. According to the groupings list, they should be.