G20

Lord True Excerpts

Thursday 17th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place.

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on the G20 summit in Indonesia, but first I would like to address Russia’s missile strikes on Ukraine this week.

On the very day that I and others confronted the Russian Foreign Minister across the G20 summit table with the brutality of his country’s actions, and on the very day that President Zelensky addressed the G20 with a plan to stop the war, Russia launched over 80 separate missile strikes on Ukraine. The targets were innocent people and civilian infrastructure; the aim, to cast the population into darkness and cold. Once again, Russia has shown its barbarity and given the lie to any claim that it is interested in peace.

During the bombardment of Ukraine on Tuesday, an explosion took place in eastern Poland. The investigation into this incident is ongoing and it has our full support. As we have heard the Polish and American Presidents say, it is possible that the explosion was caused by a Ukrainian munition which was deployed in self-defence. Whether or not this proves to be the case, no blame can be placed on a country trying to defend itself against such a barrage. The blame belongs solely to Russia.

I spoke to President Duda yesterday to express my sympathy and pledge our solidarity. I also spoke to President Zelensky on a joint call with Prime Minister Trudeau to express our continued support, and I met my G7 and NATO counterparts at the sidelines of the G20. We will help our Polish allies to conclude their investigation and we will continue to stand with Ukraine in the face of Russia’s criminal aggression.

The Bali summit took place amidst the worst global economic crisis since 2008. The G20 was created to grip challenges like this, but today’s crisis is different, because it is being driven by a G20 member. By turning off the gas taps and choking off the Ukrainian grain supply, Russia has severely disrupted global food and energy markets. The economic shockwaves will ripple around the world for years to come. So, together with the other responsible members of the G20, we are delivering a decisive response. Almost all G20 members called out Russia’s actions, declaring that

‘today’s era must not be one of war.’

We will work together to uphold international law and the United Nations charter, and we will act to protect our collective economic security. The G20 agreed to use all available tools to support the global economy and ensure financial stability. That means international financial institutions mobilising more resources to support developing countries, it means continuing to call out those who exploit their lending power to create debt traps for emerging economies, and it means tackling the causes of rising inflation head-on, including by delivering fiscal sustainability.

We pledged our support for the UN-brokered deal to keep grain shipments moving in the Black Sea. I am pleased to say that that deal has now been renewed. Two-thirds of Ukraine’s wheat goes to developing countries. With famine looming, it is desperately needed and Russia must uphold its part of this deal.

We agreed action to improve energy security by accelerating the transition to clean energy. We launched a new Just Energy Transition Partnership with Indonesia, which will unlock billions in private finance for new green energy infrastructure. Finally, we committed to maintain free markets and free trade and to reform the World Trade Organization.

Yesterday, I held my first meeting with President Biden. We pledged to redouble our support for Ukraine and to continue deepening our co-operation, including on energy security and managing the challenges posed by China. I met Prime Minister Modi, where we reviewed progress on our forthcoming free trade agreement. I discussed our accession to the CPTPP with the Prime Ministers of Japan, Canada and Australia, and I met with almost every other leader at the summit, with the exception of Russia. In each of those discussions, there was a shared determination to restore stability, deliver long-term growth and drive a better future—one where no single country has the power to hold us back. In just a few moments, my right honourable friend the Chancellor will build on those international foundations when he sets out the Autumn Statement, putting our economy back on to a positive trajectory and restoring our fiscal sustainability.

By being strong abroad we strengthen our resilience at home, so we will continue to support Ukraine and to stand up for the rule of law and the fundamental principles of sovereignty and self-determination. We will build a global economy that is more secure, stable and resilient, because that is what the gravity of the moment demands. That is how we will ensure that our country emerges from this crisis stronger than it was before. I commend this Statement to the House.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

I thank the Leader of the House for delivering the Statement. I am standing in for my noble friend Lord Newby, who cannot be here this evening. I welcome the outcome of the G20 meeting, with its near unanimous support for Ukraine, our Polish allies and condemnation of the illegal actions of Russia. The determination to uphold international law and the UN charter has our full support, as does the commitment to collective economic security.

If a deal to sustain grain shipments moving in the Black Sea can be secured this weekend, this will have special significance, at least for the developing world. The recognition by the Government that our own economic stability depends on a firm international foundation is welcome. The Statement says:

“By being strong abroad we strengthen our resilience at home.”


The problem is that everything that the respective Governments of the past six years have done has been to weaken this position abroad, and it is not surprising that this weakening is reflected in our own intolerable domestic economic situation, made worse by the last Conservative Government’s own actions.

The missile incident in Poland should perhaps remind us of our history: an attack on Poland led us into the Second World War, and, for the next two years, Churchill spent his life trying to ensure that we did not stand alone. Polish troops were some of the bravest who supported us then. This should demonstrate to us that, whatever happens in Europe, whether it is a security issue, energy shortages, economic problems or the impact of climate change, this all impacts on us as a nation. Every day, our sovereignty is weaker by being outside the European Councils. Gatherings such as the G20 and the G7 are actually now very important to us because we have fewer opportunities each year to meet world leaders. They are of course even more important to us now that we are outside the EU, where we had so many opportunities to meet leaders of our neighbouring countries in Europe to get to know how we could work with them, which we were very good at doing.

I want to ask the Leader of the House three questions. First, there is lots of talk about defence issues arising from the conflict in Ukraine, and that is obviously our focus, but are we and other nations prepared to support Ukraine economically as well as defensively? Will we be supporting its move into the European single market, and what involvement will we have in the equivalent of a Marshall plan for that country, either before or certainly when the war has ended?

Secondly, there seems to have been little discussion at the G20 on the problems of population growth across the globe—particularly in Africa, where half the growth is now expected to occur, according to UN projections—and its implications for water, food and migration pressures on Europe in particular. It needs international attention, particularly the line from Lagos to Shanghai, where resources are needed to counter the growing pressures of population growth and the shortage of world resources.

Finally, once again, there is a lot of attention to the discussions with President Biden on the edges of the G20 meeting. I suspect that his position and probable involvement in any celebrations in March on the Northern Ireland peace agreement were discussed. So is March now the new deadline for sorting out the Northern Ireland protocol to ensure that he makes this visit, and was it discussed?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, a range of questions have been raised. I begin by expressing my sincere sense of gratitude, on behalf of the Government, to both noble Lords who have spoken for the sense of solidarity they expressed, both in support of Ukraine and in the face of the quite appalling aggression by the Putin regime. I can say, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and Sir Keir Starmer said in the other place, that “we stand as one” on this. There has also been very powerful affirmation of that in this House, for which I am extremely grateful. I join with the noble Baroness opposite in offering particular personal condolences from this House to those Polish citizens whose loved ones were killed as a result of what happened, as well as to those who suffered in the latest atrocious bombardment by Russia of Ukraine.

It was provident that a number of important NATO elements were there at the G20, and, as the noble Baroness said, it was possible for them to gather, make an assessment and reassert the sense of NATO support for Ukraine. I share the satisfaction expressed by the noble Baroness in the calmness, good sense and measured way in which NATO responded to what was obviously a deliberate provocation. It is not the first time that Russia has done this sort of thing during an international conference.

On the attacks on civilians, we know that, given the climate in the central part of that part of eastern Europe in winter, this is frankly a despicable attempt to freeze people to death and cause suffering by the weapon of cold.

On help to Ukraine, of course this Government will continue to give support, in both military and financial terms. This year we have given £2.3 billion of military support to Ukraine; we are training Ukrainian armed forces as part of our plan to train 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers every 120 days. Eight other countries have signed up to our programme, and we are providing further military aid, including another 1,000 surface-to-air missiles and more than 25,000 extreme cold winter kits for troops. That is on top of past packages.

I so much agree with what the noble Baroness and the noble Lord said about grain supplies and food security. There are ongoing discussions about the Black Sea grain initiative. The simplest way to stabilise global food and energy prices would be for Russia to end its illegal and unjustified war. The most immediate important step would be for Russia to renew the Black Sea grain initiative and stop targeting attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure. The UK and its allies are working tirelessly through diplomatic channels and help from President Erdoğan and others. We have made steps forward already this week and, as the noble Lord expressed, I hope that, as the week goes on, we will see a return towards normal operation of that agreement.

We need an end to the war, but the noble Lord is quite right that we need to tackle famine and reduce world hunger. This Government are doing a lot bilaterally in that respect—for example, in our support for Somalia. We are committed to protecting children in the countries most affected by food insecurity. I assure the noble Lord that the Government will continue to give very close attention to famine relief and support.

The noble Baroness asked about the Global Fund. It is true that she made some criticisms; on the other hand, we have confirmed that we will commit £1 billion to the Global Fund for its work over the next three years, which we believe will help save more than 1 million lives at risk from deadly diseases. We are the third-largest donor to the Global Fund; we have invested £4.4 billion to date to fight HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria around the world. The pledge comes at a time of significant pressures on the UK’s aid budget, with domestic budgetary constraints, famine risk in the Horn of Africa, where we need support, and conflict in Ukraine.

The noble Baroness asked about China. Yes, the challenges posed by China are systemic and long term. China is a country with fundamentally different values from ours, and its leadership is intent on reshaping the international order. A precondition for any part of our relationship will obviously be our national security; we will continue to call out human rights abuses, such as the appalling issues in Xinjiang, which have often been discussed in this House. As for whether our IR refresh will designate China a threat and so on, I cannot give a timescale, for which the noble Baroness asked, on a specific China strategy. We want to continue dialogue with China, but I assure her that we have our eyes open on that point.

On India, we have achieved our ambition to conclude the majority of the talks towards an FTA by the end of October this year. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said in the other place earlier, there is a lot of interest in the various aspects of the deal, and the quality of deal is more important than the date when it is signed. However, negotiators continue to press ahead to secure a deal that is fair, reciprocal and will deliver for the UK economy—and, as in any reciprocal deal, also for India. The Prime Minister had a very positive meeting with Prime Minister Modi.

As far as the United States is concerned, the Prime Minister had a good meeting with President Biden. At this short notice I have not had the full debrief of what was said in their personal conversations, but there was a strong commitment to work together, both in terms of Ukraine and the relationship with China. It is true that the United States is not focused on free trade agreements generally at the moment, but we stand ready to engage with it. The US is our largest trade partner and bilateral trade with it is worth £234 billion annually.

I do not agree with Mr Eustice about the Australia trade agreement. Our landmark trade agreement with Australia will unlock £10.4 billion of additional bilateral trade, support economic growth in every part of Britain and deliver for 15,000 businesses already exporting to Australia. We will remember UK farmers in every aspect of our relationship as we go forward.

On Ukraine joining the EU single market, I cannot answer at this Dispatch Box. That remains a matter for our friends in the European Union.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord did not answer my noble friend Lady Smith’s question directly as to whether a trade deal with the United States was raised in the meeting with President Biden. Will he confirm that it was not raised?

On the Ukraine issue, where we all stand in solidarity in this House, there have been two alarming developments. Was the use of Iranian drones by Russia in Ukraine raised and is there any international action that could be taken which might limit the capacity of Iran to provide assistance to Russia?

Another issue that was not raised in the Statement at all was a further strengthening of sanctions, particularly against key Russian individuals, too many of whom still appear to be—how can one put it?—disporting themselves on the international scene at the moment. Could there be a further strengthening of sanctions? Since President Putin appears to be indicating that he is intent on creating a hard winter for the people of Ukraine, maybe we should be creating a rather harder winter for those owners of Russian assets in London who have alliances with the Putin regime.

[Lord True (Con)]

I am sorry, but I did say to the noble Baroness that I could not give a detailed readout of what went on in the personal conversation between President Biden and the Prime Minister. I cannot give a speculative answer in this House on something so important. As soon as I get information on that point, I will of course supply it.

The noble Lord makes a very important point about Iran. Obviously, Iran is not present at the table. We continue to make very strong representations to Iran on a number of fronts—its international responsibilities, its responsibilities not to support terrorism and, indeed, terroristic violence in any place, and its atrocious abuses of human rights within Iran.

As far as sanctions on Russians are concerned, this is something that the Government constantly keep under review. We have designated more than 1,200 individuals already and over 120 entities, and frozen the assets of 19 Russian banks with assets of £940 billion since the invasion.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)]

My Lords, I was encouraged to hear that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister affirmed that we will not sacrifice quality for speed when it comes to trade deals. Obviously, the Minister has emphasised again that today. Can he give us any more detail about G20 discussions with Prime Minister Modi? In particular, I note that there are substantial synergies when it comes to the UK and Indian life sciences sectors, some of the most productive in both our economies. This goes from research and regulatory collaboration to establishing much more secure medicine supply chains to having excellent export opportunities for some of our most innovative healthcare companies.

[Lord True (Con)]

My noble friend makes some very important points. It is no secret that the Prime Minister considers this relationship to be extremely important, and my noble friend is quite right to say that it goes beyond our aspiration for a free trade deal. There was a good personal meeting between the Prime Minister and Mr Modi, and we are deeply committed to strengthening our comprehensive strategic partnership and to discussing collaboration across all five pillars of the UK-India road map, and not only on the bilateral relationship but on aspirations within the Indo-Pacific. Discussions on digital and intellectual property matters are part of that. We are very confident that this relationship will go forward very positively.

[Baroness Blackstone (Lab)]

My Lords, do the Government support President Macron’s apparent intention to persuade his Chinese opposite number to mediate with Russia, to try to ease the conflict in Ukraine and possibly pave the way for peace talks? If the Government do support him, what action will they take to manifest that support?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness in her wisdom will know, concluding a war and bringing warring parties together is a very difficult and delicate matter, not all of which can be conducted in public. China certainly has a potentially important diplomatic role, and it has influence. Obviously, we will use our diplomatic influence with China and in other places to lead it in a direction that would help to secure peace. It was positive that the G20, including China, made the very clear declaration that nuclear war—and the threat of nuclear war—is absolutely inadmissible. That is a long way from where the noble Baroness wishes to get, but I assure her that we will continue to engage with all parties, including President Macron, in efforts to secure an end to this terrible conflict. In the interim, we will be unstinting in our support for Ukraine.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. Further to his answer to my noble friend, I say that summits are of course tremendously important, because you meet people—and that is particularly important for a Prime Minister who is new on the international scene. Yet, as I understand it, an unfortunate casualty of the incident involving the missile in Poland seems to have been a planned meeting between the Prime Minister and Xi Jinping that was not able to take place. Can the Minister confirm if that is the case? If it is, what arrangements might the UK be making to bring about a meeting between the Prime Minister and the President of China? After all, we are both members of the Security Council, and it is just as important for our Prime Minister to meet President Xi Jinping as it is for him to have met President Biden.

[Lord True (Con)]

The noble Viscount makes a fair point. It is a fact, as is attested, that the G20 summit was interrupted by the unfortunate events in Poland. Certainly, both President Xi and the Prime Minister were present at the discussions. The reality is that—as was implicit in what the noble Viscount said—none of the global challenges that faces us, whether the global economy, the impact of war in Ukraine on food and energy security that the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, reminded us of, climate change or global health can be addressed without co-ordinated action by all the world’s major economies, which include China. The noble Viscount is quite right to say that we are both permanent members of the UN Security Council; we need a frank and constructive relationship and we will go forward in that way. There has to be frankness about China’s failures, as well as encouragement about China’s positive impact.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I too thank the Leader of the House and the Government Chief Whip for arranging for this Statement to be repeated so soon after it was made in the other place; that is very helpful. I also add my total support for Ukraine and its president. No one is perfect, no country is perfect and mistakes happen, but Ukraine and President Zelensky are fighting for democracy for all of us and they should have our 100% support.

Turning to what my noble friend on the Front Bench said, it is a pity that this meeting took place at a time when our commitment to the international development effort has been reduced so substantially. I had the privilege of being one of the first Ministers when we set up the Department for International Development. The Labour Government were very proud of it indeed, and it is a great pity that it has been incorporated into the FCO and our achievement of getting to 0.7% has been cut back so much.

I want to ask a specific question. The Leader of the House, like the rest of us, will have heard the speech made by the head of MI5, Ken McCallum—a really chilling speech in which he warned about the co-operation between Iran, Russia and China. He made some very interesting football analogies, about sharing people between teams. He painted a really frightening prospect. Will the Leader of the House, as a member of the Cabinet, make sure that the warnings from the head of MI5 are taken very seriously and that action is taken on his advice?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, of course, the advice of our security services, which are of unparalleled quality—I praise their ability and their deep patriotism—is taken extremely seriously by the Prime Minister and indeed the whole Cabinet. I thank the noble Lord again for what he said about Ukraine: it reinforces the message going out from this House and the other place that we are absolutely united.

I acknowledge that some disappointment has been expressed, but I repeat that we have confirmed that we will commit £1 billion—£1,000 million—over the next three years to the global fund. We are the third largest donor, and we will continue to be one of the largest global aid donors. We spent more than £11 billion last year on overseas aid and the Government have already made a £1 billion pledge, as I said, to the global fund. We are also providing additional resources, as was made clear in the Statement today, of £1 billion in 2022-23 and £1.5 billion in 2023-24 to support Ukrainian and Afghan refugees. A lot of money is being committed, but difficult decisions do have to be taken.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister is to be congratulated on a far-ranging series of meetings at the G20. In my mind they certainly set the spirit for future co-operation, but I will turn briefly to trade. The noble Lord will not be aware of this, but there is an incoming Indian delegation in town today. I have just hosted a meeting upstairs, of which the upshot was that we will form a British-India chamber of commerce—covering all India, broken down by its four regions—with a focus on mid-size SMEs and not just the large organisations that are so often the focus when there is dialogue between India and the UK.

The Commonwealth was raised today. Will the Government consider a pan-Commonwealth free trade agreement template that can be tweaked by member nation states—bar the two that are members of the European Union, which would be excluded? Will they drive this initiative forward and discuss it with Commonwealth states? The idea was put to me by the Americans, who wish to join a free trade agreement with the Commonwealth, which would include the UK and might break the dialogue impasse with the US.

[Lord True (Con)]

I thank the noble Viscount for his contribution in sustaining and developing this vital relationship with India, which we have discussed and other noble Lords have referred to. The Commonwealth is of fundamental importance to the United Kingdom; we value all those relationships and look forward to the imminent state visit of the President of South Africa. It will bring great joy to many people who have watched the travails of that country in my lifetime to see that happen. I note the noble Viscount’s wider point about the Commonwealth, but I cannot commit to going in that direction from this Dispatch Box.

House adjourned at 6.25 pm.

COP 27

Lord True Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness opposite and the noble Lord. Certainly, the slightly more favourable tone of the noble Baroness, who was trying hard not to praise the Prime Minister too much, contrasted with the view of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, that a Prime Minister in office for five minutes must be criticised because he went, at the first opportunity, to COP 27. I think the noble Baroness had it right when she said it was a good thing that the Prime Minister went, and that it was a source of optimism.

I will come on to deal with some of the specific questions, but first I shall address the very important point about Alaa Abd el-Fattah. We are deeply concerned about this case—the noble Baroness was absolutely right to put it first in her response. We are working hard to secure his release. It is true that the Prime Minister raised this with President Sisi in Sharm on Monday, when he stressed the UK Government’s deep concern and hoped that the case would be resolved. We are providing consular support to his family. I will have to provide exact details of where we are on that, because I would not want to mislead the House in any way. I am advised that we are, but I will get that clearly stated for the noble Baroness. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary spoke to Alaa Abd el-Fattah’s family last Wednesday and recently raised his case when he met Egyptian Foreign Minister Shoukry. I also pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon who has met the family several times, most recently this month. This is an important case and I give an assurance that we will continue to follow it.

On the broader Statement, the noble Baroness is right to say that the 1.5% target is important. The Glasgow climate pact provided a road map for keeping that 1.5 degrees alive. As the noble Baroness knows, 1.5 degrees is an advance on the Paris agreement but, as my right honourable friend Mr Sharma said today, countries now need to step up their ambition and take action to deliver on those pledges. It is certainly an area of continuing importance.

The noble Baroness rightly raised the importance of vulnerable nations. We are already helping countries across the world to deal with the impacts of natural disasters and climate change, and we announced last week that we would triple funding for climate adaptation from £500 million in 2019 to £1.5 billion in 2025.

The noble Baroness was of course absolutely right about energy independence and dependence, and the impact of Putin’s violent war in Ukraine. We have over some decades, as I have said in the House before, perhaps not given enough attention to energy security at home. It was a pity, in retrospect, that the 1997 Labour manifesto said that nuclear would not form part of its programme. We need to move forward with a balanced approach in which renewables, about which the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Newby, spoke, are at the heart of our policy. The UK is working alongside the G7 to end reliance on Russian energy. The UK has already ended all imports of coal from Russia and we will end imports of oil and gas by the end of this year. In fact, June 2022 was the first month since records began in 1997 in which there were no imports of fuel from Russia.

The North Sea was raised as a matter of concern. To answer the noble Lord, Lord Newby, we remain fully committed to climate targets, but they are not incompatible with support for the oil and gas industry. We will continue to need oil and gas to heat homes and fill up tanks for many years to come. The cleanest and most secure way to do this is to source more domestically by investing in our North Sea. Sourcing gas in the North Sea produces less than half the carbon footprint of importing liquefied natural gas.

I was asked a number of points about support for investment in different types of energy, which relate in some senses to what might be budgetary decisions. The House will have to indulge my being a bit reticent about going into some of those areas, but I note what was said about onshore wind, for example, for which both Front Benches opposite expressed their enthusiasm.

I was also asked about the windfall tax. For the same reason, I will not go into any tax decisions in detail, but I remind the House that we have already introduced a 25% energy profits levy on top of a 40% corporation tax rate paid by firms involved in the North Sea. It is true that there is a relief, to which the noble Baroness referred, to encourage investment. I will not comment on all individual taxpayers, but I point out that Shell has committed to invest up to £25 billion into the UK’s energy system over the next decade and BP has committed £18 billion.

I refute what the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said: Britain is seen as a leader. I cite the extraordinary leadership given by, for example, my noble friend Lord Goldsmith around initiatives on nature. What has been done and agreed at COP 27 in relation to forests and the £90 million investment in the Congo Basin show extraordinary progress in which the United Kingdom has been a leader, and it is only fair to recognise that. The same is true of the partnership on improving clean power, in which the arrangement with South Africa was a pioneer. I am pleased to report to the House that there has been a similar agreement at COP 27 with Indonesia. We also hope to reach agreements to support other nations going forward. I cannot answer which Minister will go to the Montreal conference, but I will write to the noble Lord on that point.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as co-chair of Peers for the Planet. The Minister said that he could not comment in detail on onshore wind because of potential budgetary considerations. I am not sure that his reticence is necessary. The issue here is a planning one, not a budgetary one. There is currently a moratorium on new onshore wind and the replacement of existing onshore wind. The not-much-missed growth Statement said that the Government would lift the moratorium and bring in normal planning considerations for new onshore developments. We have now heard that that is in doubt. Given the need for more renewable energy in future, is it in doubt or will the statement that we will revert to proper planning procedures be maintained?

My other question is global. Many of the vulnerable countries to which the noble Lord referred are very indebted countries, and as well as trying to meet the costs of adaptation and sustainable energy, they are meeting the costs of debt repayment. The ex-President of the Maldives put forward the suggestion of a debt swap so that, in future, those debts could be used for sustainable projects in developing countries. Would the Minister give me an answer on that?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry if noble Lords thought that I was being too reticent by not straying into some areas. We have a wide-ranging Statement about to be made, and I would not want the House to draw any conclusion from what I say or do not say. What your Lordships must understand is that this is a difficult time. There has been a lot of criticism of this Government’s commitment to renewables, but I underline that we have achieved a fourfold increase in renewable use since 2011. Renewables now make up 40% of our electricity supply—something that, in 2010, Mr Ed Miliband said was a pie-in-the-sky idea. That pie has come down from the sky, but we do need to make it larger and I will listen to the point that the noble Baroness made.

On wind, more than £1 billion of government investment is already boosting our offshore wind sector, and major port and manufacturing infrastructure, and safeguarding many jobs. The Hornsea wind farm—it is offshore, I concede—has lately come onstream, and it is one of the largest that exists. As to debt, I cannot be specific about that, but I will take away and pass on what the noble Baroness said. We are obviously conscious that there are specific nations with specific problems; for example, some of the small islands are nations that we are particularly concerned to address in a specific way.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister’s commitment to UK net zero is admirable and reassuring. There are obviously some huge problems ahead, but there are also some very good signs. For instance, I read in the papers that Morocco is committing to provide 10 gigawatts of solar-driven electricity by cable to the United Kingdom, which is the equivalent of five nuclear power stations—so there are hopes as well as problems. However, the real difficulty is that 40% of global emissions come from Russia, China and India, and that proportion is going to rise in both percentage terms and volume terms. What exactly are we going to do about that?

[Lord True (Con)]

Well, my Lords, we will use such diplomatic power as we have. I have discovered in life, at a relatively advanced age, that you may pour wisdom into many people’s ears but they will not necessarily listen. I think the whole House agrees with what my noble friend just said; it is essential that all nations step up to the plate. The best we can do—and I believe that we did it in Glasgow, and that the Prime Minister has done it at COP 27—is use the UK’s considerable diplomatic influence in partnership with our allies. For example, we are working on Just Energy action with South Africa and Indonesia, and we are working alongside other developed nations.

We must use our diplomatic power to the greatest extent possible and we must, by our exertions, set an example to the rest of the world. If I could tell your Lordships’ House that with a click of the fingers, I could change the policy of very powerful nations in other parts of the world, I would, but every time Ministers of this Government meet Ministers from high-polluting countries, we will certainly make that point.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, is the Minister able to confirm that the pledges for international climate finance are not being taken from the ODA budgets?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, on the ODA budget, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has made it very clear that he wishes to see a return to 0.7% as the target for overseas aid. That remains the position of the Government. As far as specific action and lines of finance are concerned, I am not in a position to say anything at the Dispatch Box. Again, I will contact the right reverend Prelate, but I remind the House that we are a world leader in development support. We spent more than £11 billion on overseas development aid in 2021. We remain committed to the International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Act 2015 and to spending 0.7% of GNI once the fiscal situation allows. That has been made clear from the top of the Government.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned energy security. Let us remember that this Government have had 12 years to develop some sort of plan for that. My question is: we still do not have enough legislation referring back to the policy that was decided in Glasgow, so are we going to see some legislation on the promises the Government made then and, perhaps, more legislation on the promises they are going to make in Sharm el-Sheikh?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, obviously there is energy legislation before your Lordships’ House. I remind the noble Baroness, whom I thank for the jam—

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

It was a bribe!

[Lord True (Con)]

—that the United Kingdom was the first major economy to commit to a legally binding target of achieving net zero by 2050. That is the law of the land and we remain fully behind it. Again, the noble Baroness implies that not much has been done. Actually, we cut our emissions by over 44% between 1990 and 2019, and that is faster than any other G7 country. We have also set into law the world’s most ambitious 2035 climate change target. So let us seek to achieve those ambitious targets, and we will continue to accelerate the production of clean energy such as nuclear, wind and solar.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

My Lords, we understand the difficulty of the fiscal position but it would surely be short-sighted and make it significantly more difficult to meet the net-zero target if Sizewell C were delayed or scrapped.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I note what the noble Lord says. Again, the Government have made it clear that they see nuclear as being a significant part of the equation. There will be further announcements in relation to that but I take note of what the noble Lord says.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I come back to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Newby, about renewables: the need to have some form of battery holding the energy generated, which is also relevant to nuclear. If we do not have that capacity and the generation by wind or tide—or, indeed, nuclear—is during the night, when demand is low, we are not getting an efficient system. What attention are the Government giving to extending the pumped-storage schemes—we have one in Dinorwig in north-west Wales but, equally, others could be brought on stream—to ensure that cheap, clean energy is available when it is needed, generated originally by renewable sources?

[Lord True (Con)]

Again, my Lords, the Government say—it is not always popular—that we are in the period of transition and we need to be flexible and adaptable. I am not commenting on any specific schemes or proposals. Obviously, our intention is to do the very best we can to secure resilience and a greater degree of independence at home. The noble Lord is absolutely right to say that with that comes jobs. I believe that there are already some 430,000 jobs in low-carbon businesses and their supply chains across the country, which is not widely enough recognised outside your Lordships’ House. Since November 2020, nearly 68,000 green jobs across the UK economy have materialised or been supported or secured for the future by government policy. However, there is a balance, and as I said in response to an earlier question, we are reflecting on the broad spectrum of energy need at this time, particularly given the tragic situation with the Russian aggression in Ukraine.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, may I come back to the issue of nuclear power stations? The Minister was a mite critical of the last Labour Government. He will remember that in 2008, the decision was made to go back to new nuclear. Since then, progress has been agonisingly slow because of the lack of funding, and we have only Hinkley Point in development. Can I take it from the Statement—the Prime Minister has emphasised the importance of building new nuclear power stations—that not only must Sizewell C go ahead, as the noble Lord has said, but we must have a very big sustainable programme of new nuclear development?

[Lord True (Con)]

Again, I am sorry if I was mildly critical of the last Labour Government. When I hear my Prime Minister being criticised for going to COP 27, I might note that Mr Blair did not once go to COP during his period as Prime Minister. The noble Lord must not tempt me to stray into these party matters; he was a bit guilty of that.

A fundamental point that your Lordships are making to me, and which I want to take away, is that whatever happened in the past, we have to work together across your Lordships’ House—and as broadly as possible, I hope, cross-party—to ensure clean, safe secure energy for all in the future. That is our intention, and we have committed up to £1.7 billion to enable one nuclear project this Parliament, with £700 million available for Sizewell C to provide clean, reliable energy to homes. Nuclear energy is part of the equation, and I am sure that further announcements will come on that front.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for taking questions on the Statement, and I commend its stating that climate security and energy security go hand in hand. I am fully signed up to renewables, but does my noble friend agree that it would be much better if wind generated offshore and onshore were used and deployed by those living closest to where it reaches the shore? I do not think the public are going to like pylons—that was certainly my experience in North Yorkshire when we ended up with two lines of them. I also urge my noble friend to use his good offices to look at using more energy from waste schemes, and the energy generated staying close to where it is produced. That way, we will not lose 30% in transmission costs.

[Lord True (Con)]

My noble friend makes some important points, and in in a sense she balances the opening question. Sometimes there are difficult issues; not everyone is as zealous on these matters as we in your Lordships’ House. The enthusiasm of the younger generation for these policies and the things we need to do is a great sign of hope. But we will seek to carry the whole population with us, in whatever way, in doing the important things we have to do. I agree with the substance of what my noble friend said.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, the IPCC says that there are two great drivers of carbon emissions. One is obviously fossil fuels, but the other is population growth. Today, as I am sure everyone knows, is the day the world population passed 8 billion people. Our budget towards the UNFPA used to be £200 million, but we recently reduced it by 85% to just £32 million a year. The agency reckons that, within the area that we supported, that has resulted in 14.6 million unintended pregnancies, as well as 4.3 million really unsafe abortions. All statistics show that if you empower women, especially in the developing world, it helps towards changing attitudes and behaviours and reducing population. Can the Government give us some reassurance that, at least on this specific part of overseas aid, they will look to restore that budget and encourage other countries to do the same?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness invites me to go into some extremely sensitive areas which touch on every individual’s personal beliefs and aspirations—and the beliefs and aspirations of different nations and cultures. One thing that my right honourable friend Mr Johnson was extraordinarily keen on was the promotion of women’s rights, particularly young women’s rights, across the world. I think he was absolutely right on that. I hear what the noble Baroness said, but on some of these policies, we need young women to be fully and properly educated so they can then make informed choices for themselves in their places and nations.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Government are scoring international climate finance against ODA, and their 0.5% cap means that that spending has to be offset by cuts to developing countries elsewhere. The £90 million that the Leader referred to for the Congo Basin was actually part of funds announced last year in Glasgow. My question to the Leader is simple. Was any of the support announced at COP 27 extra money which will not have to be met from cuts elsewhere in the development budget for least-developing countries?

[Lord True (Con)]

The noble Lord was typically enthusiastic about government policies. On the climate finance target, the Prime Minister said in the Statement that we regretted that the goal would be met later than 2020, as originally expected, but it is important to recognise that significant progress has been made. Under our presidency, 95% of developed countries have come forward with ambitious new commitments on finance, with some doubling or even going up to four times their commitment.

I agree that more needs to be done to ensure trust in the process. That is why we asked Canada and Germany to develop a delivery plan for the climate finance target with all developed countries. It remains one that, with commitments, we are confident can be reached, but we regret and acknowledge that the goal will be met later than 2020, as originally expected.

[The Earl of Sandwich (CB)]

My Lords, the family of Alaa Abd el-Fattah will be grateful to know about all the remarks that the Leader has made today and the initiative of the Prime Minister, but he is still in prison and may go back on hunger strike. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of people in his position in different parts of Egypt. Will the Foreign Office pursue this issue on the basis of the human rights situation in Egypt and not just one person? I am sure that that is what the family would like.

[Lord True (Con)]

Yes, my Lords, I agree. I am sorry if I have responded at too great a length, because there are other important matters before the House, but I thought that this case—the noble Earl is quite right to reaffirm it—is important and goes wider. Human rights are important in every context. We continue to raise other cases with the Egyptian Government. For example, the former Minister for Africa raised the case of Karim Ennarah with the Egyptian Foreign Minister during her visit to Cairo last month. We have expressed our deep concern on the case of Alaa Abd el-Fattah, we hope it will be resolved as soon as possible and I can assure the noble Earl that, more widely, we are concerned about and interested in issues of human rights in that country.

Arrangement of Business

Lord True Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True)]

My Lords, if I may, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, sought to rise to ask whether a Motion for an humble Address is debatable. It is a debatable matter, but a First Reading is not a debatable matter, I am afraid. The point I would have made then is that I did not think the sense of the House was that we wished to have a debate on a matter where a Bill was about to come before your Lordships’ House in an expedited way, by agreement in the usual channels.

The Deputy Chief Whip will now make a statement, which I think it would be helpful for noble Lords to hear, on the way in which this legislation will be dealt with. It will be dealt with in a way that will give noble Lords the maximum latitude to make their opinions felt, including the laying of amendments before Second Reading. I hope that we can hear what the Deputy Chief Whip is going to suggest, after agreement in the usual channels, as to how we should deal with this matter. Your Lordships will have ample and normal opportunities to discuss these matters as the Bill proceeds.

[The Earl of Courtown (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal for his comments. I want to take this opportunity to briefly set out the approach to considering the Counsellors of State Bill, following its introduction today. Second Reading will take place next Monday, on 21 November. Noble Lords can now sign up to speak on the Government Whips’ Office website; the speakers’ list will close at 4 pm this Friday. Committee and all other remaining stages will be taken on Wednesday 23 November. Once the Bill is published later today, Members will be able to table amendments for Committee. The deadline for the Marshalled List will be 30 minutes after the conclusion of Second Reading on Monday 21 November. Any amendments should be tabled in the usual way with the Public Bill Office. The Government Whips’ Office and the Public Bill Office can offer further advice.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, can I ask a question? I understand that it would have been technically correct to have a debate after the introduction of the Motion for an humble Address at the start of business. I think the Leader of the House has confirmed that, but I understand why and accept that it is appropriate to discuss it under the business of the House. What I am not clear about is when the Motion which was passed earlier says

“provide such measures as may appear necessary or expedient for securing the purpose set out by His Majesty”.

The Deputy Chief Whip has indicated what is to happen to the Bill of which we have just had a First Reading. Is that the only measure that will be necessary, since it refers to “such measures”, plural? Can we have an indication about any other legislation, including statutory instruments? I mean primary or secondary legislation.

My second point is in relation to the people who can become Counsellors of State. The Motion says:

“including Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal and His Royal Highness the Earl of Wessex”.

Could any other member of the Royal Family be added to that? What would be the procedure for adding any other member of the Royal Family and would it come before this or the other House in anyway whatever, or could it be decided summarily by the Royal Family or anyone else? It is important that we know how anyone else might be added.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord opposite, whom I have great respect and affection for, is an extremely experienced parliamentarian. Perhaps this is one reason why he seeks every opportunity to intervene, even when it is not necessarily our custom. I say to him and the noble Viscount, who has taken a close interest in this matter, that the Government are presenting—I have just asked your Lordships to give a First Reading to it, which they very kindly have—a Bill which constitutes the measure which gives effect to the purport of the King’s Message. That is a Bill put before your Lordships’ House. The other place must speak for itself on what procedures it will use.

The Bill will be available online. It will be in the Printed Paper Office and Royal Gallery later today. An announcement will be put on the annunciator when the Bill is published. Given the interest in the Bill, it is being expedited. A speakers’ list will be open on the Government Whips’ Office website and will be kept open until 4 pm on Friday. As it is a Bill before your Lordships’ House, it is open to any noble Lord to put whatever amendment may be within scope of the Bill. However, I urge your Lordships to take notice of the Message which His Majesty was graciously pleased to send us.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, from these Benches and as part of the usual channels, I was very happy to agree the process outlined by the Leader of the House and Deputy Chief Whip and hope that we get on with this now.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, before we conclude this debate, can I follow my noble friend’s comments? If the text of the Bill is as we think it is, that will be fine. However, in this Motion it says “including” Her Royal Highness and the Earl of Wessex. I welcome that, but what is the position of Prince Andrew and Prince Harry, who no longer have a role in royal duties? Can they be or have they been removed, or will they be standing in for His Majesty even though they do not do royal duties? I hope we will get an answer to that.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I have told the House that the Bill will be published today. I suggest that your Lordships follow our good custom, which goes back centuries, of debating these matters when they are before the House, particularly as the Bill is being published this afternoon.

Counsellors of State

Lord True Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord True]

That an Humble Address be presented to His Majesty to return thanks to His Majesty for His most gracious message regarding the inclusion of Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal and His Royal Highness the Earl of Wessex and Forfar among those who may be called upon to act as Counsellors of State under the terms of the Regency Acts 1937 to 1953, and to assure His Majesty that this House will, without delay, proceed to discuss this important matter and will provide such measures as may appear necessary or expedient for securing the purpose set out by His Majesty.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords—

Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Bill

Lord True Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord True]

That the bill be reported from the Grand Committee in respect of proceedings up to and including Wednesday 2 November; that the order of commitment of 28 June be discharged and the remainder of the bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House; and that the instruction to the Grand Committee of 28 June shall also be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, it is not customary to discuss usual channels business at the Dispatch Box, but with your Lordships’ indulgence, may I express the great pleasure in the usual channels that His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to assent that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, be sworn of His Majesty’s Privy Council? That is a great credit to the noble Lord, his party and the House. If I can express it in less parliamentary terms, he is an all-round good man and we are absolutely delighted and congratulate him. That said, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Lord True Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[The Lord Privy Seal]

That, in the event of the Supply and Appropriation (Adjustments) Bill having been brought from the House of Commons, Standing Order 44 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Tuesday 25 October to allow the Bill to be taken through all remaining stages that day.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

I apologise, my Lords: I was not expecting to have to intervene on the previous matter, but, without prejudice to what we say in private, I heard what the noble Baroness said. I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

Motion agreed.

Hereditary Peers By-election

Lord True Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, before the Minister responds, I wonder whether there may be an opportunity for he and I to discuss this through the usual channels. Not only do we have hereditary Peers by-elections, against which this House has voted in principle—with no disrespect to those candidates who come into the House, whom we welcome—numerous times. We also have additional Members coming to the House as Ministers—about 10 in the past couple of years—and now there are reports of a further prime ministerial resignation honours list from the Prime Minister, who has been in post for only about a month. It seems that we ought to have a little more thought about the membership of this House and, as the Burns report says, not having a House of quite the size it is, but one that allows us to do our best work in the best way. It would be helpful if we could discuss in a sensible, practical and respectful way ensuring that this House is of a size that enables us to do our job in the best way possible.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness talks about the size of the House, and I noticed the difficulty of finding a place on your Lordships’ Benches today. On the usual channels, I prefer to have such discussions in private, rather than on the Floor of the House. As far as new Peers are concerned, I simply say that I look forward to welcoming the eight new Labour peers who were appointed on the recommendation of the leader of the Opposition.

Regency Act 1937

Lord True Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Stansgate]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have, if any, to amend the Regency Act 1937.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Regency Act sets out the arrangements by which a regency is triggered, as well as provisions for the appointment of Counsellors of State. On occasion, the Regency Act 1937 has been amended so that its provisions effectively support the sovereign in the discharge of their duties and ensure the resilience of our constitutional arrangements. The Government will continue to consider their legislative programme for the remainder of the Session.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for that reply. The House knows that the Regency Act is still very relevant: it is the only reason why it was possible to open the current Session of this Parliament. Indeed, when you look at the final year of Her late Majesty’s reign, there were elements of a regency about it. Does the Minister not think it time to approach the King to discuss the potential amendment of this Act, and in particular Clause 6, which at the moment defines regents in relation to their line of succession to the Crown? Otherwise, are the Government happy to continue with a situation where the counsels of state and regency powers may be exercised by the Duke of York or the Duke of Sussex, one of whom has left public life and the other of whom has left the country? Is it not time for the Government to approach the King to see whether a sensible amendment can be made to this Act?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for the Question but he will of course understand that I will not discuss any private conversations with His Majesty or with the Royal Household. His Majesty King George VI set out in his gracious message to Parliament that there can be a need

“to consider contingencies which may hereafter arise, and to make such provision as will, in any event, secure the exercise of the Royal Authority.”—[Official Report, Commons, 26/1/37; col. 766.]

In that spirit, the Government will always consider what arrangements are needed to ensure resilience in our constitutional arrangements, and in the past we have seen that the point of accession has proved a useful opportunity to consider the arrangements in place.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, can the Government indicate that they will at least consider that the person they go to in the first consideration will be somebody who actually undertakes royal duties, or at least some part of them, at present?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, again, I will not comment on specific circumstances. I have set out the position in response to the noble Viscount, and, obviously, any consideration would also have to take place in close consultation with the Royal Household.

Business of the House

Lord True Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord True]

That Standing Order 44 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Monday 24 October to allow the Energy Prices Bill to be taken through committee and report that day.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, this Motion relates to the Energy Prices Bill, which we are shortly to take. I will briefly explain to the House the rationale for this approach. I am sure noble Lords will be aware that, for Bills considered under an expedited timetable, it is usual for Third Reading to take place on the same day as other stages. However, for this Bill we have scheduled Third Reading a day later, on Tuesday 25 October. This reflects the additional time needed to complete the processes of securing legislative consent for the Bill.

I also take this opportunity to update the House on the deadlines for amendments. The deadline for noble Lords to table amendments for the first Marshalled List for Committee is 4 pm tomorrow. If the Bill is unamended in Committee, the deadline for tabling amendments for Report will be 30 minutes after the conclusion of Committee. If it has been amended, the deadlines will be different. We will advise these to noble Lords in the usual way. Noble Lords will be able to table amendments for Third Reading after the conclusion of Report until the start of Third Reading on Tuesday 25 October. The Chief Whip and I will further update the House as the Bill progresses and details will be available on the annunciators throughout the passage of the Bill.

Motion agreed.

Economic Update

Lord True Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, when I think of the noble Lord, Lord True, a number of words normally spring to mind. However, the word which springs to mind today is not normally on that list—it is “sympathy”. I have great sympathy for the noble Lord having to defend the Government’s action on their fiscal policy as he is being asked to answer questions on the most comprehensive government U-turn in his and most of our political lives. Never mind the Prime Minister: I am sure he must have been inclined to hide under his desk. But we are extremely grateful to him that he chose not to do so.

To read or listen to the Chancellor’s Statement, you would think that the screeching reversals of policy which it contains had nothing to do with the actions of the Government themselves—actions they took only three weeks ago. The Statement stresses the necessity of there being “trust and confidence” in the national finances. It acknowledges that trust and confidence have evaporated. It therefore reverses virtually all the tax changes announced on 23 September that had not already been reversed and then says that “decisions of eye-watering difficulty” will still be needed to restore economic stability.

There is no acknowledgement that the only reason the Statement was necessary and the only reason there was a collapse in trust and confidence was because of the actions of the Government. There was no contrition or apology. Instead, as the noble Baroness pointed out, there was the ludicrous suggestion that the only reason why we have a crisis is that the 23 September Statement was not accompanied by a forecast from the Office for Budget Responsibility—one which, incidentally, the OBR offered to produce and the Government refused.

In fact, the only reason we have a crisis is that the Government acted with breathtaking irresponsibility and in the amazingly naive belief that the markets would believe that future shortfalls in government finances could be met by completely implausible projections for future growth in GDP. What the crisis has demonstrated is that the markets are not as naive as the Government and that no Government can buck the markets simply by a combination of bluster and chutzpah.

The silver lining is that, for the foreseeable future, no UK Government, inspired by either right-wing or, for that matter, left-wing ideology, will dare to try to pull the same trick again. But in the short term we are faced with the eye-wateringly difficult decisions which the Chancellor is set to announce on 31 October. It looks as though these decisions will concentrate on public expenditure cuts. There is some suggestion that the Government are revisiting the possibility of a windfall tax on the oil and gas producers to produce real revenue, which is long overdue. But that is only a small part; the main thing will be big cuts in public expenditure.

There is a whole range of questions relating to these possible cuts which I would like to put to the noble Lord. I would like to ask whether benefits will be uprated in line with inflation rather than earnings. I would like to ask about the future of social care provision. I would like to ask about possible further cuts to overseas aid. I would like to ask what level of support the Government will be able to provide for energy bills beyond next April, and what the consequences of the withdrawal of support will be on the level of inflation. I would also like to ask which infrastructure projects will be culled and, in particular, whether the Prime Minister is still committed to the creation of a new railway line across the Pennines. But I realise that there is no point asking those questions today, because the noble Lord will reply simply that everything is currently on the table and I will have to wait until 31 October and, in the case of the longer-term support for energy bills, until the Treasury review is complete.

So instead of asking those questions, I will ask him simply this. What precedent is there for a British Prime Minister being forced to completely reverse the core elements of her programme and remaining in office? What mandate do the Government have for implementing swingeing public expenditure cuts precipitated by their own incompetence? And why do they not now do the decent thing, namely resign and let the people choose who they want to sort out this mess?

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, if the call for my resignation was an expression of Liberal Democrat sympathy, I am very grateful for it, but I cannot oblige the noble Lord.

Noble Lords know the situation outside the United Kingdom—I was also asked about the United Kingdom and will come on to that directly. The noble Baroness opposite agreed that there are global issues related to interest rates. I do not think that, in such an intelligent House as this, we should pretend that the issue of rising interest rates across the world is something somehow confected in the City of Westminster. These are grave problems which people are not used to dealing with, having had low interest rates for a number of years, but they are problems that we will have to discuss and address in a mature way.

The noble Baroness talked about inheriting a mess. I have to say—I can share this with my Liberal Democrat colleagues—that I think the 2010 coalition Government knew a lot about inheriting an economic mess after the party opposite had driven the economy literally into the ground.

On undoing everything, which was another point that the noble Baroness made, major parts of the Government’s package to help people—I underline that—remain in being, in particular to help the most vulnerable people. I said yesterday in our brief exchanges that we have already reversed the national insurance increase, which I think was welcome, for workers and businesses across the country—I think the Labour Party was in support of that—and we are just about to discuss a major package to help people with energy bills.

I am asked about the energy review, and it is true that my right honourable friend the Chancellor said that we were going forward and would be looking at whether the forward-looking support on energy could be better focused on the most vulnerable households and those least able to pay—I believe that the parties opposite thought that help should be focused on the most vulnerable and those least able to pay. That review will continue; obviously, I cannot give a precise date for its outcome, but it will issue well in time to deliver for people a sense of what they will be in going forward. However, this winter, in the midst of the crisis, the extraordinary degree of help that the Prime Minister announced immediately on her becoming Prime Minister will go ahead, and it is important that that is not forgotten.

On mortgage rates, I apologise if I referred to a personal case; I always try to see every policy in every part of government not in a personal way but in the way it affects people—that is how you wisely make policy, not necessarily always from think tank documents. As the noble Baroness knows, the pricing of mortgages is a commercial decision for lenders, in which government does not intervene. However, the Treasury is regularly in contact with mortgage lenders on all aspects of their mortgage business to understand their position and the current lending conditions, including, recently, at the former Chancellor’s round table with retail and challenger banks on 6 October.

I repeat that interest rates and mortgage rates have been rising since last autumn in response to global trends, which include—but obviously not exclusively—as my noble friend Lord Forsyth pointed out yesterday, Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine. It is not just here in the UK, as I said at the outset of this response; the US Federal Reserve has been raising its base rate since March 2022. I recognise that the Government have a responsibility to provide stability for markets, including for mortgages, and that was one of the reasons why we have taken immediate action, as we have, to ensure the UK’s economic stability and provide confidence in the Government’s commitment to fiscal discipline.

Those of us who remember the terrible inflation rates of the 1970s will never forget its impact on families and businesses, and we well understand that families across the country are struggling with rising prices and higher energy bills. I repeat that this Government will prioritise help for the most vulnerable while delivering wider economic stability and driving long-term growth to help everyone.

On energy, I referred to the energy price package for the winter, which will go ahead.

I must point out that a windfall tax is a one-off tax. However, as I said yesterday, there is already a tax levy on the income of energy companies. That already exists, having been introduced by this Government.

On public spending, as the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said, a Statement will be made shortly by my right honourable friend the Chancellor, and the noble Lord knows that I cannot anticipate that. I can say, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said today, that the pensions triple lock will stand. I think that will give a great deal of reassurance to many noble Lords and to those following our debate.

I think my time is up but if I have not answered any questions, particularly on the point about repossessions which the noble Baroness made, I will write to noble Lords. I am sure that those factors will be taken into account by my right honourable friend, but I will get a response on that.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does not my noble friend the Minister think it remarkable that, with soaring interest rates worldwide, a dangerous war in Ukraine and double-digit inflation in this country and elsewhere, the opposition parties have nothing to say by way of remedy other than that we should reduce the term of the Prime Minister to less than that of a fruit-fly and plunge the country into a general election? Is that not why this country needs this Government at a time when people are worried sick about how to pay their bills?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, Labour’s spending commitments are about as opaque as the Government’s current ones but at least we are going to publish ours shortly. We all wait to hear what the Labour Party might say. It will face the same constraints on tax and spending as this Government. It has committed to massive excess expenditure but we have seen few revenue-raising proposals. Indeed, the windfall tax would be a one-off and would raise significantly less than Labour suggests. In conclusion, if this does not take away from people’s problems and fears—people are worried about mortgages, interest rates and inflation—let me say that the current central bank interest rate is lower than it was in 11 of the 13 years of the Labour Government after 1997, when average rates approached 5%.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, referred to the global trends that are causing such mayhem in various countries, including our own. However, those trends were in evidence more than three weeks ago. Can the Minister tell us what the then Chancellor had in his so-called mini-Budget that was not agreed—indeed, encouraged—by the then Prime Minister?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am not answering for my right honourable friend the former Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am stating to the House that, given the circumstances we are in and the position I have outlined, the Government, with the intention of ensuring the UK’s economic stability in response to events, have published a way forward. We have published proposals on the fiscal side and will shortly publish proposals on the spending side.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, if this crisis is all a global crisis, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, claims, why was the gilt market’s immediate reaction to Chancellor Kwarteng’s Statement to increase long-term interest rates in this country to higher levels than they are for Italy and Greece?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is pretty well informed about the economic position in other European countries. He will know well that there are grave inflationary problems and problems with interest rates across Europe. There has already been a successful gilt sale this week; I have no doubt that it will continue.

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, I do not pretend to know the ins and outs of exactly where we find ourselves but I serve communities in the north. I think particularly of people I have met recently in Middlesbrough and Hull, where there were great hopes for levelling up. It now seems a distant dream. I recently visited a school where children go in the morning with an empty lunch box for them to fill up with food from the food bank in the playground at the end of the day. The budget for school meals has gone up by 2% yet food inflation has gone up by more than 10%. We need to make tough decisions—I am glad to hear that the triple lock will remain in place—but, on behalf of the communities where I serve, I must ask this: will benefits rise in line with inflation? If not, millions of people will be moved into poverty. Those who recently donated to food banks are now visiting them themselves.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I reiterate that the purpose of the Government is certainly to help those who are vulnerable and those living in some anxiety at the moment. That is one of the reasons why we are looking at ways of concentrating the energy help on the most vulnerable as we go forward, after dealing with the immediate crisis. I assure the most reverend Primate that the levelling-up programme will continue. Many of the growth measures that were announced will also continue. I hope that if local authorities in his area wish, for example, to set up investment zones to attract jobs and investment in the way that the Government would like to see, then he will, with his great leadership role in the community, give support to such propositions.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, until about a week ago, the whole Cabinet and most of the Members opposite were proclaiming that the only way to deliver growth was through a whole suite of tax cuts. We now know that almost all those tax cuts have been reversed, so what is the plan for growth, how much growth does the Minister expect, and when can we start seeing the measures that will deliver the growth that we need in this country?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, we will continue to go for growth by delivering support for families who need it most—for example, by cutting the tax burden that would have taken place with the national insurance tax. That levy reversal will give 28 million people an average of £330 a year. We will go for growth by launching investment zones, as I said when responding to the most reverend Primate. We will introduce minimum service levels for transport services shortly in Great Britain, to ensure that strike action cannot derail economic growth; I look forward to support from the Liberal Democrats for that legislation. We will accelerate infrastructure projects across the country and have announced over 100 of them for transport and energy. We will also speed up delivery to undertake the complex patchwork of restrictions and EU-derived law.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, thinking about the future and the practical situation that we are in, there is quite a lot of sense in reviewing the energy cap again in April 2023, provided that it does not push up the CPI, because every time that happens it increases government expenditure elsewhere? There is a growing realisation that, next year, energy prices internationally—oil and gas—need not rise nearly as fast as they have in the past. There are some signs of fall already. Therefore, if we can organise effectively an international co-operation with other major consumer countries in persuading the powers-that-be in the production world to increase oil and gas production, including America, OPEC and other countries, the difficulties of Russian withdrawal can be overcome, and we can see a much more favourable inflation rate. That in turn will begin to unwind all these worries about benefits matched to inflation and demands for wage costs well above 5%.

[Lord True (Con)]

My noble friend, with his immense experience in the energy sector, has been something of a voice crying in the wilderness on energy policy over decades under different Governments. His point about volatility is critical and is one of the reasons why we must review the nature of support going forward. Obviously, we will need to talk, and are talking, to other energy producers. We have had a very sharp increase. There have been significant fluctuations. We introduced an energy profits levy, an additional 25% tax on the profits of oil and gas companies which, listening to people on the opposite Benches, you would not know had even happened. That is going forward and is not a one-off. It will raise £7 billion this financial year and £10 billion in the next. We are looking to iron out the contracts to help renewable energy industries and there is a package that I hope will come forward before too long.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord did not answer the very specific question from the most reverend Primate about benefits uprating. On Monday, the Chancellor told MPs that

“all these decisions will be taken through the prism of the impact on the most vulnerable people in society.”—[Official Report, Commons, 17/10/22; col. 429.]

Many of the most vulnerable people in society rely on social security and, as we have already heard, the inflation rate they face is actually higher than the 10% announced today. Given this, is there not a strong case for the Government to announce now that they will uprate benefits in line with inflation to reduce the anxiety being faced by people who are, as we have heard, already struggling to make ends meet?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, it is absolutely true that people across the United Kingdom are worried about the cost of living. I apologise if I did not answer the question from the most reverend Primate; I will answer it now, but it might not be the full answer required. It is not always easy to remember everything that one is asked at the Dispatch Box, so I sincerely apologise to the House. The Government have announced £37,000 million of support for the cost of living this financial year. We have the energy price guarantee and the energy bill relief scheme, which will help millions of households. We are supporting millions of vulnerable households, which will receive £1,200 in one-off support, with additional support for pensioners and those claiming disability benefits, as the noble Baroness knows.

However, obviously the issue of uprating benefits and other aspects of government spending are being considered in totality. The Work and Pensions Secretary is conducting her annual review of benefits and I promise the noble Baroness that more will be said on this in the medium-term fiscal plan.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, has the noble Lord seen the recent article in the Financial Times that suggests that a future Government of any complexion will simply be a creature of the bond markets and not the other way round? Does he agree, and is that a good thing?

[Lord True (Con)]

I do not know that I do agree. I fear that I am not the most assiduous reader of the Financial Times—certainly not its editorial copy. The Government’s aspiration is to serve the people, not the bond markets.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I just point out to the Minister that, even with the list of flimsy growth measures he just described, Goldman Sachs forecast a 1% drop in output in the UK next year—so a recession. That is on the back of these policy announcements. I push him on this: today at Prime Minister’s Questions, if I understood the Prime Minister correctly, she said that there would not be cuts to public spending. She even implied that there would be growth in public spending. Could the Minister clarify if, once again, she was talking in nominal terms—or cash terms, as it is sometimes called? If it is not in real terms, swingeing cuts are on the way.

[Lord True (Con)]

If it is £1 less in real terms, that is an interesting definition of a swingeing cut. A medium-term fiscal plan is going to be published shortly. The noble Baroness and I go back a long way and I have great respect for her, but I suggest she waits for that. I believe the noble Baroness still has interests in the lovely California, so she should understand, from her knowledge of the United States, that there are international issues at play.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that there will be real difficulty finding anything like the necessary savings by cutting public expenditure? There will have to be some increases in tax. Does he recall that, in the 1980s, my noble friend Lord Lawson aligned capital gains tax and income tax, and said there was no justification whatsoever in capital gains tax being less than income tax? Reintroducing that progressive Conservative policy would save some £14 billion. Will he commend that to the Chancellor?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am not going to be drawn on anything in relation to what may be in the medium-term fiscal plan, but I am sure that the Chancellor reads your Lordships’ Hansard closely.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, my question follows on from that from the Cross Benches. A surprisingly little remarked element of the Statement is the creation of an economic advisory council with four names. These are a BlackRock portfolio manager, a hedge fund manager formerly at Deutsche Bank and JP Morgan, a hedge fund owner formerly of Goldman Sachs, and a JP Morgan employee formerly of HSBC. The financial sector represented 8.3% of the UK’s total economic output in 2021. Does the Minister see a problem with the composition of this panel? Is it appropriate in representing just a tiny, politically privileged part of the UK economy, about half of the input of which comes from London, drawing on the point made by the most reverend Primate?

[Lord True (Con)]

I am not going to comment on the appointment of advisers, but I am sure that those named, if the noble Baroness has named them correctly, will give the best advice they conceivably can. Often from Green Benches we hear attacks on the financial services sector, and it is quite astonishing that the Scottish Greens in government should adhere to this kind of visceral opposition to financial services. There are more than 2.3 million jobs in financial services, and two-thirds of those are outside London in finance hubs including Belfast, Birmingham, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds and Manchester. Financial and professional services contributed nearly £100,000 million pounds in taxes in 2020.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend accept that what is crucial at the moment is that in the country as a whole there should be real confidence in the credibility and the competence of the Government, and that that means there has to be a Prime Minister who is entirely credible and who enjoys the full confidence of the country, as I believe the Chancellor now does.

[Lord True (Con)]

I have nothing to add to the answer I gave to the noble Lord yesterday.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Minister said that the triple lock is guaranteed. At the Conservative party conference, the Prime Minister said it was guaranteed. On Monday, the Chancellor said that he could not guarantee it. Today, the Prime Minister now says she can guarantee it, yet it is the Chancellor who is going to make the Statement on the 31st. Why are we expected to believe that there will not be another U-turn? Can the Minister make sure when he goes to the Cabinet that there is no such U-turn?

[Lord True (Con)]

I have set out the position to the House. That was a good try by the noble Lord but this morning the Prime Minister made a statement in the House of Commons on the pensions triple lock, and that is the position of His Majesty’s Government.

[Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that alongside supporting families and businesses with their energy costs, it is critical that we work to secure our own long-term energy supplies?

[Lord True (Con)]

Yes, I agree with that, and my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford has been so wise on this point for such a very long time. Again, this may involve difficult decisions and reflections, and some people may have to lay aside some of their prejudices in the national interest. We will be giving very careful thought to seeking to move towards greater energy independence. I hope that that goal, which must be in the national interest, will allow all of us from different points of views to temper some of our ardour in the collective public interest.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has been very generous with his time. He has made a number of comments about the integrity of the Government now in place and has stressed the need to go forward, working with the team he has. Can he comment on the fact that the Home Secretary has now resigned?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, obviously, I cannot comment on information to which the noble Lord is privy. I am here as Leader of the House of Lords to serve your Lordships’ House. I give priority to serving your Lordships’ House and have not been looking at WhatsApp during this exchange of views.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that; the noble Lord is always helpful to this House. It would be helpful if we could have confirmation. The rumours are now that the Home Secretary has been sacked from her post. Given what has been said today about the necessity of a strong and stable Government, can he report back to your Lordships’ House at some point? There are probably Members of this House who would be happy to serve. That might be an answer to help out the Government.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I have nothing further to add.