Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

I have to say that I am a little bit hopeful in a way I have not been for some time. The Northern Ireland Office seemed over a period to do less and less, remember less and less, and have less and less experience than at many previous times. The return of the noble Lord, Lord Caine, to the Northern Ireland Office fills me with a degree of optimism, because he has a very substantial, long-standing experience that few others have, either at the political or the official level. I hope that he will bring that experience to bear. I have no doubt that he will, and I hope that the rest of those in the office will listen to him.

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I support, in general terms, the amendments that have been proposed by my noble friends and by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. They carry me back to past events. I was the first First Minister when Seamus and I were elected. We both regarded it as very important that we should be elected jointly, because that would carry to the public the image and the reality that we were going to work together and with due regard to the views of the various parties. Consequently, I am very much in favour of returning to that. In the circumstances, I would be pleasantly surprised if the Government did so, and it would be a good thing for them to do.

I have some reservations about the references in Amendment 3 to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister as “Joint First Ministers”. They have the same powers, but the difference in terminology is a matter of who goes first into a room and who speaks first. It is a formal matter. The Lib Dems’ representative in the Commons may not realise that precedence matters. I leave you to reflect on that. Precedence matters, and speaking first makes a difference, even if you are speaking on the same subjects.

Some of the other things that have been mentioned in passing here reminded me of when we were in office later and could see that the opinions of the electorate were shifting. We were thinking about the position of Sinn Féin, so we quietly sent a little message to Sinn Féin saying that it should reflect on whether it could provide a Deputy First Minister who would be acceptable to the public. I notice that it has followed that in the way in which it has handled things in the Assembly.

As to the points from the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, about what might happen on or after an election, just wait and see. Do not jump to conclusions in the way you are at the moment, because it is not particularly useful.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise only briefly on this issue to concur with some of the comments that have been made. As the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, said, there is always some hesitation on the part of those who were not there to revisit some of these issues. The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, made a point about those who compromised and found that the Belfast/Good Friday agreement was not perfect. Perfection can often be the enemy of any progress at all, so I have enormous admiration for those who were able to compromise to reach what has been a long-standing and impressive agreement. Along with others who have spoken, I put on record my tributes to those who were mentioned.

I saw the Minister wince slightly when the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, talked about how much more confidence he has that there may be some progress on various issues now that the Minister is there. My only comment is: no pressure there then. I could tell him not to worry about it, because this is an issue where people want to and can find agreement, and there is always good will in the discussions. I remember, during direct rule, when I took over from the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that he was nothing but courteous and helpful to me when I was making my way as a Minister in Northern Ireland.

We are very supportive of what the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Suttie, and the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Rogan, are trying to achieve with these amendments. There is value to a more consensual approach to this, as the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, outlined, but I suspect the Minister will say that this discussion is for outside this Bill, because the Bill is to progress issues in the NDNA. Nevertheless, I think there is an opportunity for the Minister to reflect on the comments that have been made. Even if they are not for this Bill, there could and should be discussions on them to see if further progress can be made and if there are benefits to taking such an approach.

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[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, this is an important issue, and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, has set out very clearly the reasoning that lies behind the amendment.

I will come on to the remuneration point in a moment but, as someone who benefited politically from being able to sit in the House of Commons and in the Assembly, as did most Members of Parliament from Northern Ireland at that time—I think all but one MP was also a Member of the Assembly and some held ministerial office, as indeed I did—I know that it provided a bridge between what was happening here in Westminster and Whitehall and the Northern Ireland Assembly. That meant the Assembly was not deprived—I would not necessarily say of “talent”—of experience and knowledge of the political process, certainly of the negotiations that had led up to the settlement. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, as Speaker, was also a Member of this place, which, again, provided heft and authority to the office of Speaker.

On the remuneration point, it needs to be borne in mind that Members of Parliament who were also Members of the Assembly received only one-third of their Assembly pay and, indeed, in the end received no salary whatever for being in the Assembly, so it was not particularly beneficial from a remuneration point of view to sit in both places. It also has to be borne in mind—not to rehearse the arguments about the issue because that has now been settled—that at every election the electorate had an opportunity to make their decision, in the full knowledge of the mandates that people held, about whether they thought a person was suitable to be a Member of Parliament or a Member of the Assembly. In most cases, the electorate made their decision very firmly.

We are at the point where we accept that the principle you should be either a Member of Parliament or a Member of a devolved assembly is now well established and I am not seeking to reverse that, but what the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is seeking to do is to address this hard edge so that we have a transition to enable that flow of membership to happen, but not in a way that creates unintended consequences, to bring us in Northern Ireland into line certainly with Scotland and to a large extent with Wales.

I think this is a sensible amendment. On the point that it is not part of the NDNA agreement, it is not, but this provision about how so-called double-jobbing should end was part of the Conservative manifesto in 2010 and was implemented in 2014. The speedy implementation of manifesto commitments was once again on display. That was beyond the NDNA. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, has set out very clearly that this is something that needs to be addressed and this Bill is a good vehicle in which to do it.

If the Minister is minded to deploy the argument that this Bill is about the NDNA only and nothing else, I say gently to him that this is not how the Government have approached other issues. They have on occasion moved, and are currently considering moving, on issues and legislating on issues that do not have agreement among the parties in Northern Ireland. One thinks first of the timing of the bringing forward of the cultural package under NDNA, which is entirely a matter for the devolved Assembly. It is nothing to do with Westminster. It is a matter for the Assembly, yet the Government have indicated that they are minded to legislate on it here without any agreement on the timing; I shall not going to go into the substance of it, as it is a different matter. Secondly, on abortion, whatever one’s views may be on the issue, it is clearly an entirely devolved matter. There is no agreement on that issue among the parties in Northern Ireland or in the Assembly, yet the Government are going to legislate on it. Indeed, they have legislated on it. If the Government are going to use the argument that these things have to be done by agreement, that they are going to change things only by agreement and that they will not do anything that is against the agreement of the parties in Northern Ireland, that needs to be consistent.

No doubt when the Minister comes to speak, he will claim credit for the provisions against double-jobbing because he was instrumental in that matter at that time. The reasons why it was done are fully understood in the context of the time, but this amendment would remedy a gap in how it is implemented—that is the important thing—and provide for a proper transition period.

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, having heard what has been said by the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice and Lord Dodds, I think this is a very sensible amendment and I hope it will be accepted by the Government.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I also accept this amendment and declare an interest, in that I am a former MP and Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, who served in both for a short time. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, that this amendment would prevent a cliff edge from happening, because those who are Members of the Assembly and of Parliament—and many of my colleagues were a Member of Parliament and then became a Member of the Assembly—brought with them a knowledge of legislative procedure. The Northern Ireland Assembly was very different from councils, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said. It was about bringing forward and scrutinising legislation so, in the early days, it was important to have people of experience there.

I am opposed to double-jobbing, but this amendment brings a transitional phase that would help the situation. I recall an election count for the Assembly in 2016, when my colleague Colin McGrath, who had been a member of Newry, Mourne and Down council, was elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly. The chief executive of the council arrived at the same time as Colin McGrath was elected and asked for his letter of resignation and his computer to be handed over there and then. Whereupon Colin McGrath said, “That indicated that you thought I was going to be elected and it was very august of you to think that. But I am not in a position to do either of those things this evening. You will get them on Monday morning”.

What currently exists gives officials an upper hand, of which people may not have been aware, to execute their responsibilities and feel mighty important. I think there is a case for this amendment, in that it provides for the transitional phase, and allows for that essential knowledge to be carried through and for people to bed down while they transfer to their new situation in a fully pledged way. Then it allows for their replacements to be selected and take their place in the Assembly. It is all done not according to a list system, as it was originally, but from internal systems within parties. We are undergoing one in South Down at the minute, and they can cause consternation among friends and colleagues by creating unnecessary rivalry.

It is important that people concentrate on issues, legislation, scrutiny and investigation, rather than who is going to replace who. That is not good politics, in the truest sense of the word, and is not about service and delivery. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, would make sure of continuity in transition, and of concentration on legislation and the issues that matter to people and on which they expect their elected representatives to deliver for them.

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[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and to speak in support of this amendment, which is also in my name, because this issue goes to the heart of the political crisis that currently afflicts Northern Ireland.

We are debating a Bill which in a way—I suppose, ironically—arises out of the previous crisis in Northern Ireland. We have had a series of such Bills over the years. Noble Lords on the Labour Front Bench will recall that when their party was in office it too brought forward from time to time various Bills concerning Northern Ireland, which not only dealt with the operation of the Assembly and the institutions but sought to legislate on things such as legacy and other issues which we are still grappling with today. That shows that many of the issues are still to be resolved and this is a work in progress. Many people who felt that, once we had the Belfast agreement of 1998 or subsequent agreements, everything was fine have been disillusioned of that by events. One of the problems has been that, instead of adhering to agreements that have been entered into, there have been efforts to undermine the principle of consent which is at the heart of the Belfast agreement as amended by the St Andrews agreement. This is what we are dealing with in this amendment.

I totally accept, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, said, that the Minister has had very little time to consider this matter—that goes for other noble Lords as well—so we clearly understand that this is a matter that we will have to consider over the coming days and, no doubt, at a later stage of the Bill. However, I emphasise that it is a matter of urgency. As things stand, the protocol poses a danger to the union. The noble Baroness alluded to the court action currently under way—not just to findings in the High Court but to some of the Government’s own lawyers’ submissions, which are troubling and worrying for unionists in Northern Ireland, where they have argued that sections of the Act of Union, particularly Section 6, are suspended, in effect, by the withdrawal Act. That is an incredible position for a Conservative and Unionist Government to find themselves arguing for in the courts; it really is quite staggering. Whether it is today or another day, this issue of the protocol needs to be addressed soon. At the heart of it is the issue of democratic consent.

Earlier in the debate on other clauses we discussed the importance of the principle of consent and the assertion of its primacy, as well as issues concerning returning things to the way they were in the 1998 agreement. What was at the heart of the 1998 agreement but the principle of consent and the idea that there should be cross-community support in the Assembly for every key decision? As the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, alluded to, that is explicitly referred to in paragraph 5(d) of strand 1 of the Belfast agreement. We therefore have a situation, for all the reasons we know, that every key, major decision made in the Northern Ireland Assembly is either a cross-community vote or susceptible of being turned into one. That was agreed not by us but by those parties who put their hands to the Belfast agreement. In the amendments that were made in St Andrews we made some improvements to the overall structure, but that was the fundamental agreement that was made.

There is only one key vote, one important decision—probably the most important one of all—which cannot now be a cross-community vote. That is the vote in 2024 on whether the Northern Ireland protocol should continue to apply; in other words, whether all the EU laws on manufactured goods, agri-foods, VAT, state aid, and so on—those matters covered by Articles 5 to 10 of the Northern Ireland protocol—should continue to apply in Northern Ireland and to its people. Those laws were made without any final decision being susceptible of being made by anyone in the Northern Ireland Assembly or at Westminster. They were made in Brussels, not necessarily—or, rather, certainly not—in the interests of Northern Ireland. They will have been made necessarily in the interests of those who made them. I do not object to that; that is perfectly understandable. However, the fact that we are then subjected to them even if they disadvantage us is an outrageous proposition in a 21st-century, modern democracy, and it would certainly not be tolerated in Scotland, Wales or any part of England for a second. It is certainly not taking back control.

The decision in 2024 is offensive in its own right because it should already have been made—it should have been made prior to this coming into force. In 2024 that decision is then to be made by a majority vote, so it is not a cross-community vote and it cannot be turned into one. That was done in the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland (Democratic Consent Process) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. One of the most significant changes to the structure of the Assembly and the principle of consent was made in subordinate legislation, in the regulations that I have just described, not by primary legislation, in an Act of Parliament, but unilaterally by the Government here in Parliament, making a fundamental change to the way in which the Northern Ireland Assembly takes decisions. Again, there was no vote in the Northern Ireland Assembly on such a matter, only one which was made here unilaterally.

The significance of that should not be underestimated. The Government’s argument was that this is not a devolved matter. Of course, the reality is that if it is not a devolved matter, there should not be a vote in the Northern Ireland Assembly at all. If it is not a devolved matter, it is a vote for Parliament. By giving the vote to the Assembly, they then decided to change the voting mechanism to ensure that one outcome would be agreed. That, on top of everything else regarding the protocol, has rightly exercised unionists of all parties, backgrounds and descriptions in Northern Ireland.

These amendments seek to restore—as we heard earlier in some of the arguments put forward regarding other amendments—what the original agreement and the 1998 Act said, and to restore the principle of consent on a cross-community basis for all key decisions. If done in a timely way, they would go some way towards alleviating the current crisis and perhaps avoiding what is coming down the road. As I said at Second Reading, it is simply unsustainable for people to expect that the institutions will just operate as normal while the east-west relationship has been trashed, which is strand 3 of the agreement, as well as strand 1 through the changes that were made to the consent principle and the mechanism regarding agreement.

I understand the difficulties today for the Minister regarding the late notice and being able to examine the amendments in detail, but I urge him to take on board the heartfelt views, the real concerns and the matters of principle that are at the heart of them.

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I think most people know that I am one of the parties, together with the noble Baroness opposite, who are pursuing these issues through the courts. Despite what has been said at first instance, I am quite confident that when we reach the end of this litigation we will be vindicated. However, that will take time.

At the same time, we hope that the Government, who have been in negotiation with the European Union for some time and I think are making some progress, will acknowledge that they have not yet made enough progress for us to be able to go back to normal life. Hopefully, this issue from 1924 or whenever it is will never arise, but if it does then the comments that the noble Lord opposite has made are very important. If, in a number of years’ time, we come to a vote on this issue where we are denied the procedures that we put in place in the Belfast agreement, that will not be acceptable. I say that very firmly and clearly.

What the Government have tried to do on this issue is not going to work. They cannot just try to slip this through and somehow hope that it will work out all right when the time comes. It was a bad mistake for them to eliminate cross-community voting on an issue that is of huge importance. In the agreement we were very conscious about making sure that all important issues would be decided by cross-community vote. To take that away from the people is not going to be acceptable. We have problems going on at the moment and I do not want to say anything to exacerbate them, but I will just say that the Government have got themselves into a hole. They should get out of that hole before it gets too big and overwhelms them.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I wish to make a few brief remarks about this issue. Those who have spoken before me—the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and the noble Lords, Lord Dodds and Lord Trimble—have articulated the situation. I say to the Government that they need to demonstrate clearly that they have not fallen out with devolution, because their actions in recent times are getting the message over to Northern Ireland that they are rather weary of devolution or no longer believe in it.

There is a crisis coming. Those of us who sit here want to avert it if we possibly can, but the Government are the ones who can really avert it. They have created it—that has been put very straight to them by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble—and only they can ensure that this crisis does not hit us in the face. Let it be clearly said and understood here today: it is on its way. It is in the making. It is almost here.

I will not say anything more, but I urge the Government to take note in particular of what the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and the noble Lords, Lord Dodds and Lord Trimble, have said. There is an issue, and if it is not sorted quickly then I believe it will go beyond sorting.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Tuesday 27th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has been very generous to the Democratic Unionist Party to the point where she is open to criticism. I suggest that the DUP shows its appreciation and reduces the Prime Minister’s exposure by doing everything it possibly can to restore the Assembly. It should sort out all the issues that Adams is using as an excuse. If he still prevaricates, which I suspect he will, we should get behind plan B, which is a corporate assembly, which could be up and running quite soon and avoid direct rule .

As a result of the success of the pro-union parties in Scotland, a second independence referendum is off the table for now, so we can reflect on the experience, which was messy in the absence of a legislative framework. The solution would be to extend the provisions of the 1998 Belfast agreement, which regulate the holding of a border poll to Scotland. Schedule 1 to the 1998 Act has two important provisions. The first provides that the Secretary of State shall hold a poll,

“if it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom”.

The key words are “Secretary of State”, “likely” and “majority”. The power to hold a referendum rests with the Secretary of State, who can act only if an independence majority is likely. You cannot have a poll just because you want one, because you hope it might produce a change or that it possibly might produce a change. There has to be something more concrete. Obtaining a majority in an election could not trigger a poll because votes in an election rest on a variety of matters and words in a manifesto do not bind the voter. We should remember that part of the reason for having referenda was to take constitutional issues out of day-to-day bread-and-butter politics.

The second point of interest in the 1998 Act is that there cannot be a poll earlier than seven years after a previous poll, which ensures that there will be at least three elections between one referendum and another, which is a reasonable safeguard. That brings us back to Northern Ireland, where the electorate are regularly told that if a certain unionist party does not have more votes than a certain nationalist party the constitution is in peril. That is rubbish. Only a border poll can produce constitutional change. A general election or an Assembly election are irrelevant on that point. In two of our recent elections Sinn Fein have made significant gains. I came across a comment by a nationalist blogger who was anxious to show that these gains had had an effect on the likelihood of a border poll. He said that in a recent Northern Ireland life and times survey there was an indication of increased support for a united Ireland. In looking more closely, he cited an increase only from 31% to 34% and that was the percentage of Catholics supporting a united Ireland, which left out a lot of others. That shows the scare- mongering was far from the truth.

Finally, there is the point also mentioned by my noble friend Lord Empey—the issue of devolve and forget. The three regional Secretaries of State are really now redundant. Their job was to represent their region to the centre. That is now done by the Assemblies and their Ministers. We need a higher profile, centrally based Secretary of State for constitutional issues and the regions. His function should be to be the guardian of the national interest and to promote co-operation among the devolved bodies and between them and the centre. There will then be no forgetting and there will be an avenue for matters to be considered by this Parliament through having that Secretary of State accountable to it.

Independent Monitoring Commission for Northern Ireland

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, on securing the debate. I also congratulate the four persons who have been commissioners of the Independent Monitoring Commission over the past seven years, and thank them for the excellent job they have done.

Perhaps I may be permitted some purely personal reflections. It was my colleagues and I, during my time as First Minister of Northern Ireland, who suggested to the Government that such a body should be created. We did this in more specific terms, saying that as we had an oversight commissioner for the police and one for the justice system, we should have one for paramilitarism. The proposal evolved somewhat after it was originally made. I am sorry to say that when we put it to the Government we encountered fierce resistance from the Northern Ireland Office. Indeed, I remember a very senior member of the Northern Ireland Office saying to me that he was not going to have some other person overseeing what he did. He was quite right to have that concern because, while one put the proposal in terms of having independent reportage and oversight of what paramilitaries were doing, the whole object of the proposal was to try to curb the behaviour of the Northern Ireland Office, which unfortunately at times was not satisfactory. Respect for the Northern Ireland Office hit bottom when a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, after a paramilitary murder, dismissed it as merely “internal housekeeping” by a paramilitary organisation. That sort of licence to murder was something that no government Minister should have been issuing. We were worried about the way in which the Northern Ireland Office would allow expediency and other political considerations to affect what should have been the administration of justice.

It took quite some time before the concept was formally announced in, I think, July 2002. A few months before, there was a crisis that resulted in the suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and I have always felt that if we had had this body in existence before then, we might very well have avoided that collapse and the consequent nearly five-year hiatus in the institutions in Northern Ireland. But it came, and it had a very positive effect.

I do not want to try to go over all the detail, but I must say that my eye was caught by a sentence on page 45. The Independent Monitoring Commission says that one of the tasks it set itself right at the outset was to deal with the ceasefire mentality, which in its view had,

“for too long been used to obscure and avoid the challenging implications of the Belfast Agreement: that there had to be a complete severance between politics and paramilitary activity, and that this could come about only if those paramilitaries ceased to act as such”.

I have to say that it was not just the ceasefire mentality that was used to obscure those implications; there were political parties working overtime trying to obscure them. I am thinking primarily of Sinn Fein and its allies, but it was quite shameful at the time that there were some unionists who supported that activity by Sinn Fein by assuring it that the republican paramilitaries were not under any obligation to decommission or to cease to exist at that time. Thankfully, they have changed their opinion, but it took some time before that happened.

In opening, the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, said that we still have a responsibility with regard to these matters, and that is right. She also mentioned the expenditure that we engaged in. I notice that the expenditure of the Independent Monitoring Commission averaged out at less than £1 million a year. I venture to suggest that very few million pounds have been spent in Northern Ireland so usefully and to such good purpose, and I do not think it would have caused any great difficulty for government expenditure if that had continued. It was—as I read this report, and obviously this is a matter of interpretation—largely at the instance of the British and Irish Governments that the commission was wound up. I regret that. I think there is still a valuable role that it could have taken. If we are now without that, it increases the responsibility on us to see that this matter is not forgotten. Speaking to me earlier, the noble Baroness said that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said that he was going to make regular reports to Parliament on these matters. I hope that happens and that we in this House get an opportunity to receive and to repeat such reports and to scrutinise them effectively.

EU and Sudan: EUC Report

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, in thinking about this debate, I am conscious of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, about the tendency to repetition. As the report and the speeches so far have, understandably, concentrated on South Sudan, I will address a few remarks to Sudan itself.

I was struck by the comment that appears in paragraph 12 of our report from Gill Lusk, giving her description of the Sudanese Government. She said that,

“the Sudanese government was a civilian one, but run by the security services”.

She described their immediate aim as survival. She said that their long-term policy was to establish their version of Islamic rule. Rather than using the term Islamic she might have been more accurate to use the term Islamist, because that gets you into the right context. We must remember that Sudan was the country that Bin Laden went to as a matter of choice until American pressure drove him out. That is partly why the Americans took such an interest in Sudan. We should bear that in mind.

I note also that the International Crisis Group report dated 26 September says:

“The loss of South Sudan has had a profound effect on the NCP, and senior generals led a soft-coup within the party. They have outflanked more pragmatic elements in the NCP who seek a negotiated strategy”.

We can see the effect of that soft coup by looking at what has been happening in the troubled peripheral regions of Sudan. Abyei has been mentioned.

On the point of the publication of our report on 20 June, Presidents al-Bashir and Salva Kiir, from Sudan and South Sudan, signed an agreement in Addis Ababa under which all northern troops would be withdrawn, as would the southern Sudanese, and be replaced by an Ethiopian-led UN interim security force. As mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, the Ethiopian force is there, but the northern troops have not withdrawn and neither have the southern troops. There is a stand-off taking place and limbo there as well. The hopes that were there on 20 June have disappeared.

Similarly, on 28 June, a framework agreement was entered into, which includes political and security agreement for Southern Kordofan and Blue Nile, and which was facilitated by Thabo Mbeki and the Prime Minister of Ethiopia and signed by the co-deputy NCP chairman and presidential adviser, Nafie Ali Nafie. The generals who had conducted the soft coup objected to this and a few days later President al-Bashir publicly disavowed the agreement. Since then, Kordofan and Blue Nile have descended into considerable violence. In view of the time, I will not go into dealing with the large forces that are there and the atrocities that have been committed, but they are unfortunately familiar with what has gone on.

There have been some encouraging matters. The visit by al-Bashir to South Sudan at the time of independence was encouraging, likewise, the journey in early October by Salva Kiir to Khartoum, where he was received with full ceremony and protocol appropriate to a visiting foreign head of state. Both parties committed themselves to resolving disagreements peacefully through dialogue and to avoid a return to war, but the Economist country report published in Nov 2011 concludes:

“In reality, evidence of progress is scarce and deadlines announced … look certain to be missed”.

Although with an eye to oil production and exports, the report says it is unlikely that either party will drive things to the point of open conflict.

One can see a similar pattern in Darfur. In July, the National Congress Party came to an agreement with one Darfuri faction—it is referred to as the Doha document; the faction was the Liberation and Justice Movement from Darfur. There, problems are on both sides. The larger Justice and Equality Movement was outside the Doha process, although it indicated at one stage a willingness to engage in discussions if the Doha document could be reopened. The Government have refused to do that and there has been no progress.

Latterly, we have seen a degree of coalescence between the Justice and Equality Movement and the SPLM-North, which are the forces active in Blue Nile and Southern Kordofan, and a link-up with other political groups within Sudan which have the general objective of regime change within Sudan. I would be very interested to know the Government’s assessment of those matters. We keep forgetting the huge size of these countries. The Khartoum Administration probably do not have the logistic capability to project their force to their borders. Consequently, these forces dealing with the borders have the potential to last for a considerable period unless there are interventions and initiatives elsewhere.

I confess to being a little disappointed by the Government’s response on these points. It refers to the Abyei interim agreement and states:

“We, the EU and the rest of the International Community will be monitoring the situation closely to ensure both sides comply with the terms of the agreements”.

Well, neither side has complied with the terms of the agreement. Many months have passed since then. I would be interested to see what the Government are considering doing.

I notice that the Government say in other responses that they will continue to support Thabo Mbeki and the African Union initiative. We may be polite about the African Union, but the reality is that it is not effective. Indeed, we saw in the Libyan situation that some of the things that the African Union does are most unhelpful. Thabo Mbeki may be a former President, but I bear in mind his ineffectiveness with regard to problems in Zimbabwe, which may be a greater indication for the future.

There is in these matters and reports of this nature a certain polite fiction that governs them. They are all notionally addressed to the EU and its involvement, but the truth is that the EU is not a major player in this. The comprehensive peace agreement was produced by the troika, Norway, the United Kingdom and the US, and the major player there was the US. I treasure the comment made in the margins of our meetings at one stage, where someone who shall remain anonymous plaintively inquired, “Why is it that Norway carries more weight in this matter than the EU?” That is just one of the pleasures of our discussions.

Unfortunately, while the comprehensive peace agreement was produced largely by American pressure, that pressure is unlikely to be renewed in the near future because the current President does not believe in exerting it. Speeches will not change the Administration in Khartoum. When people referred to the Administration, I thought, “Now, if I want to think about what they are likely to do, I just have to ask myself, ‘What would Gerry do?’”. That refers to my talks partner in Northern Ireland. I know what he would do in this situation if he was in Khartoum: he would hunker down until attention drifted elsewhere and then return to following his agenda. That agenda is set out by Gill Lusk. We have to take account of that. I cannot see the EU being effective on this; I cannot see the AU being effective on this; but we need to be effective. Concern was expressed earlier in this debate about South Sudan being a failed state. We have to bear in mind that north Sudan is not much better.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2011

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Monday 4th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I beg to move that the House does approve the draft Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2011. This order further extends for two years the period during which trials without jury can take place in certain circumstances in Northern Ireland. Without this order, the system allowing for non-jury trials would lapse on 31 July this year. I propose that it be extended for a further two years.

Non-jury trials take place in very limited circumstances, where the Director of Public Prosecutions issues a certificate. The DPP can issue a certificate only if one or more of four statutory conditions, which are laid out in Section 1 of the Act, are met. Furthermore the DPP must be satisfied there is a risk that the administration of justice might be impaired if a jury trial were to be held.

The four conditions relate to the circumstances of the offence and the defendant. Condition one is that the defendant is, or is an associate of, a member of a proscribed organisation. Condition two is that the offence was committed on behalf of a proscribed organisation or a proscribed organisation was involved. Condition three is that an attempt has been made by or on behalf of a proscribed organisation to prejudice the investigation or prosecution. Condition four is that the offence was committed as a result of, or in connection with, religious or political hostility.

This system, which focuses on risk, is very different from the Diplock court system, which preceded the current non-jury trial provisions. The default position under the Diplock system was that all scheduled offences would be tried by a judge alone. Now, under the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007, there is a clear presumption that jury trial will take place in all cases. Certificates are issued only when absolutely necessary in the interests of the administration of justice and where the particular statutory tests are met.

Of course, we all want to get to the point where trials for all indictable offences in Northern Ireland are heard by a jury and there is no need for these provisions. As noble Lords will no doubt be aware, there has been significant progress in Northern Ireland towards normalisation. This culminated in the devolution of policing and justice powers to the local Administration in April of last year. The local elections in May were the first in a generation to be fought on bread and butter issues. Northern Ireland has come a long way.

Sadly, despite this progress, there remains a serious threat from a small but dangerous minority who have no mandate but who are determined to drag Northern Ireland back into the past. The House will recall the horrific murder of the young PSNI Constable Ronan Kerr on 2 April this year. People and political leaders from across Ireland, both north and south, were joined in their condemnation of PC Kerr’s appalling murder. However, the terrorists have shown disregard for the community’s resolve and continue to engage in acts of terrorism. On 8 April, terrorists abandoned a vehicle containing a 500-pound bomb close to Newry, putting at risk the lives of police officers and members of the public. There have also been a number of other security alerts over recent weeks. On Saturday 25 June, the Gardai discovered improvised mortar components and a substantial quantity of fertiliser in County Louth. The total number of attacks in 2011 on national security targets currently stands at 14. There were 40 such attacks in 2010. The PSNI continues to disrupt those intent on causing harm to the community and so far this year has made 101 arrests in connection with terrorist activity. The disturbances that took place in East Belfast last month show that, unfortunately, paramilitary influence remains an issue in both communities in Northern Ireland.

It is against the backdrop of this severe threat that the Government seek to renew the non-jury trial provisions. The threat brings a serious risk that jurors appointed in criminal trials could be subject to pressure and intimidation by terrorist or paramilitary organisations. There is also the associated risk of perverse acquittals, where jurors may be coerced into returning a not guilty verdict.

In reaching a decision on whether to seek the renewal of the provisions, the Secretary of State consulted a number of individuals and organisations on the need for non-jury trials. They included the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, the independent reviewer of national security arrangements in Northern Ireland, who concluded that the threat from terrorism and the risk of disruption of trials remain live and recommended that for the time being non-jury trials should continue to be available. The chief constable of the PSNI and the Attorney-General, in his capacity as Advocate-General for Northern Ireland, also agreed that in view of the current circumstances a further two-year extension should be sought.

The number of non-jury trials in Northern Ireland—

[Lord Trimble]

The Minister has just given us the views of various people. Were representations and expressions of view given by persons, organisations or political parties in Northern Ireland? What was the balance in those representations in favour of continuing with non-jury trials or otherwise?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

This was a limited consultation in terms of the numbers invited, but all political parties based in Northern Ireland were invited, as well as the Committee on the Administration of Justice and the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. There was not a 100 per cent return in terms of invitations to respond. I am told that not many political parties did in fact respond. Of the 11 responses, nine were that we should continue with these provisions and two took the view that we should not.

The number of non-jury trials in Northern Ireland remains relatively low. So far in 2011, the DPP has issued 12 certificates for non-jury trials. In 2010, 14 certificates were issued. These figures are low but significant and show the ongoing need for non-jury trial. The Government want to see a return to full jury trial in all cases in Northern Ireland as soon as possible. However, given the current severe threat from residual terrorist groups in Northern Ireland and its bearing on criminal trials, the renewal of these provisions for a further two years is the right thing to do. I commend the order to the House.

Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I cannot give guarantees but I do not believe that there ought to be vetoes. The Belfast agreement is clear. Of course, one highly significant party in Northern Ireland was not party to the Belfast agreement. Nevertheless, it is important that this matter, which is almost the final piece of the agreement, has not really been tackled. It is a tricky issue. The noble Lord will recall that his own Government had a bit of bother with it; 12 years on, we have not got too far with it. However, because we have now had another election in Northern Ireland, there is an opportunity to make a fresh start, which the Government are very hopeful of doing.

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, perhaps I may suggest to my noble friend that we would all benefit from a close reading of the terms of the Belfast agreement on this point? Those terms make it clear that the core of any possible Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland is to be the European Convention on Human Rights, possibly together with some supplemental matters to reflect the special circumstances in Northern Ireland. That is open to a lot of interpretation, and is there not a very clear and quite principled disagreement between the major parties in Northern Ireland on its interpretation?

Sinn Fein: Parliamentary Oath of Allegiance

Lord Trimble Excerpts

Tuesday 7th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I cannot be absolute about this. The Secretary of State, supported by others, has said, “If there is a problem, come and put something to us and we will give it our consideration”. I cannot say what the Members of the House of Commons will say en masse if something is put to them. It may be that something with which they can agree is put to them; or it may be that they do not entertain it. I cannot answer that question.

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, surely the Minister can tell us the Government’s position and policy on this. It is all very well to say that the Members in another House might or might not take a view but I trust that Her Majesty’s Government have a view and advice to give the House.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, at the outset, the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State have made clear their belief that Sinn Fein Members should take their seats. If the oath is a barrier to them doing so, it is up to Sinn Fein to suggest an alternative, and it is then for Parliament to consider changes.