Defence Policy: Deterrence

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2024 Grand Committee

Asked by

[Lord Trefgarne]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether deterrence remains a core element of the United Kingdom’s defence policy.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, I will not detain the Committee for all the time allocated to me but will do my best to be clear and precise. Deterrence covers a wide range of defence activity. Nuclear is at the top. We have never fired a nuclear weapon in anger, following the two weapons fired by our US allies to end the Second World War. Nuclear weapons are to be used only when our “supreme national interest” so requires. So far, that has not occurred. I hope I can be assured that the new Defence Ministers in post have accepted briefings on these matters, whatever their inclinations may be.

At the other end of the scale, we cast our minds back to 1982 when HMS “Endurance” was on patrol in the south Atlantic. We withdrew it, somewhat unwisely, and the rest is history. The noble Lord, Lord West, who is not here this afternoon, played an important part in the Falklands conflict all those years ago, as I believe did the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. Are any British forces deployed to the south Atlantic at present? It seems that potential enemies there are again making unhelpful noises about the Falkland Islands. They were easily deterred last time by a single vessel; when we withdrew it, the rest became history.

Yesterday we heard from the Chancellor about defence spending generally. I felt that her remarks were not wholly awful. But deterrence has to be credible, and I hope that point is made to Chancellor Reeves as well as to the rest of us. There are also threats elsewhere in world, not just in the south Atlantic, and I hope we are taking account of those. I do not intend to detain your Lordships any longer.

Decommissioned Nuclear-Powered Submarines

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

On all the things that my noble friend mentions there is progress and ongoing discussions, including the waste disposal site, but we are trying to speed up the submarine dismantling programme. Seven submarines at Rosyth are decommissioned. All have been defueled. “Swiftsure” is now in dry dock. That will be fully dismantled by the end of 2026. There are 15 such submarines at Devonport. Four of those have been defueled. However, my noble friend is quite right; we need to speed up the process and we are certainly looking at every way in which we can do that.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the time taken to dismantle the retired submarines. How long will it take to get the new ones?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right to ask about dismantling. As I said to my noble friend, we are seeking to speed up that process. On the new submarines, if he is referring to the Astute class submarines, seven were ordered, six are already in the water and one is now under construction in Barrow. If he means the successor to the Vanguard class, we expect the first to be in service in the early 2030s. We are making considerable progress, and I hope that answers his question.

809 Naval Air Squadron

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, on the number of pilots going through training, as I have said, the Lightning Force continues to grow its pilot numbers and graduate additional pilots in the operational conversion unit in line with the planned force growth. The pilots are in training. I will write to the noble Lord and let him know exactly how many pilots we have available at the moment. His second question was about the Falklands. My understanding is that there are four Typhoon FGR4s based in the Falklands and a Voyager tanker based at Mount Pleasant in the South Atlantic.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that naval forces are being deployed urgently to the eastern Mediterranean to protect the cargo ships taking the urgently needed food supplies from Cyprus to Gaza?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I understand that this is the case. Sometimes I think we forget just how incredibly amenable and spread our forces are. We have 22 ships and submarines on order or under construction. The Army is globally deployed across 67 countries, with 14,000 troops on exercises and operations throughout Europe. We certainly fulfil all our role as part of NATO and in the safety of security of this country. We also involve ourselves in issues such as combating the Houthi rebels and the other issues we are facing around the world.

Conventional Weapon Stocks: Expenditure

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Monday 19th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister be a bit more precise about the quantities of ammunition being supplied to Ukraine and the different types?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am afraid that that is information which we do not divulge.

Ukraine: Ammunition and Missiles

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Monday 24th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I say to the noble Lord, in reference to the answers I have already given, that there is a very clear picture of how both the Government and industry have responded to this challenge. Industry was indeed operating on a peacetime expectation, and that has been shattered by the illegal war in Ukraine. From the information already provided, to which I have referred, it is obvious that a vast amount of work is going on. The MoD has already commenced a lot of the commendable reform work indicated in its Defence Command Paper refresh. I am satisfied that it is a fighting fit, ready-for-purpose department.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, is there any way of maintaining the export of grain through Odessa without the agreement of the Russians?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The simple answer is that it would be very difficult. Russia’s termination of the grain agreement is serious and is having a humanitarian impact. Alternative ways of getting grain out of Ukraine are being investigated, but Russia is pivotal to the smooth flow of that grain.

Defence: Support Ships and Type 32 Frigates

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

If the noble Lord had listened to my preface in response to the noble Lord, Lord West, he would have heard me say that I do not impugn the right of the noble Lord, Lord West, to hold the Government to account. However, I think the Chamber would agree that there is a certain predictability to the character of the noble Lord’s questions; I know from first-hand experience the volume of questions with which I have to deal. I am not impugning his right to hold the Government to account but to do so repetitively, without ever counterbalancing the argument by acknowledging some of the Royal Navy’s enormous triumphs, gives a slightly disproportionate and not totally representative picture.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, how many qualified crews do we have to support our destroyers and frigates? Have any been deployed in recent days in search for the missing mini-submarine near the “Titanic”?

RAF: C-130J Hercules

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I will take the last bit of the noble Baroness’s question first. There is no evidence to suggest that the size of that capability is inadequate. I have been frank about the acceleration of the capabilities where improvement had to be effected; that is happening. In fact, what was evident from Operation Polar Bear, the evacuation from Sudan, was that the Atlas acquitted itself with distinction. It got a lot of people out—more than a Hercules could ever have done—so, as I say, it is fit for purpose. I repeat: all critical operational commitments are being met.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, I refer to the two special occasions when I was exposed to the capabilities of the C-130. The first was a no less than 12-hour flight from Ascension Island to the Falklands; we refuelled at least twice in the air on the way. That flight was commanded by Wing Commander Carrington, whose younger brother is, I believe, now the noble Lord, Lord Carrington of Fulham. The second occasion was when I did a parachute jump into Poole Harbour from the back of a C-130. Happily, I was rescued very quickly by the Royal Marines.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I must observe that my noble friend is much more intrepid than I am.

Nuclear Weapons: Failsafe Review

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Monday 6th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As I said in my initial response to the noble Lord, there is a very robust system within the United Kingdom, as he will be of aware, for how we deal with the safety of our nuclear weapons—there is a surveillance programme to check that they are continuing to be reliable and safe—their security and the regulatory regime that covers our nuclear activity. We continue to invest in future capabilities to underwrite safety and performance. That includes collaboration with France under the 2010 Teutates treaty; we are jointly building and operating a hydrodynamic trials facility—EPURE—in France and a complementary capability, AWE. It is interesting that the United States last carried out a review in 1991, I think. I am aware of the noble Lord’s organisation and I pay tribute to his knowledge. His interest in this matter has been encouraging the US to carry out a review, but I reassure noble Lords that there are very robust structures within the United Kingdom.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, are not the issues addressed by this Question highly sensitive and probably better dealt with privately rather than on the Floor of your Lordships’ House?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his observation. I understand the interest of your Lordships in the general frameworks which apply, and that is something that I am happy to comment on.

Ukraine: Challenger 2 Tanks

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Let me first reassure my noble friend that the donation of the Challenger 2 tanks will be accompanied by an armoured recovery vehicle designed to repair and recover damaged tanks on the battlefield, but my noble friend will be aware of the very impressive record of the Challenger 2 in resisting attack. In addition, the AS-90 self-propelled guns will follow; there will be one battery of eight immediately battle-ready, and three further batteries in varying states of readiness to be provided to the Ukrainians to refurbish or exploit for spares. In addition to that, as my noble friend will be aware, hundreds more armoured and protected vehicles will be included. The Ukrainian Government have responded very positively to this announcement.

On the matter of money, as my noble friend will be aware, there is a fairly closely woven tapestry of timelines, which includes a combination of the integrated review refresh and the Autumn Statement of November 2022 being built on. Negotiations are currently going on between the MoD and Treasury. The Spring Budget has been announced by the Chancellor for 15 March. We await confirmation from the Secretary of State for Defence about the defence command plan publication date, when more information will be available.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, is not it the case that Challenger tanks require a unique kind of ammunition? Are we supplying ammunition with the tanks, or will the Ukrainians have to buy their own?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My understanding is, and I can reassure my noble friend, that tank ammunition is part of what is being provided. The exact quantities, he will understand, I am unable to comment on, for reasons of security.

Military Personnel: Strike Action Cover

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord will appreciate that I am here to answer questions on behalf of the MoD. However, I can say that despite the complex range of national security threats we face, our Armed Forces are also heroes of the public sector. We will always be the ultimate guarantor of national resilience. That applies equally when industrial action compromises the safe operation of core functions of the state as when flooding or fire threatens the homes and lives of British citizens. That is once again why we are so thankful to have the dedication and commitment of those professional and skilled people.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, given that the Armed Forces are trained to obey orders regardless of the circumstances, will the Government be sure not to take advantage of that situation?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As I indicated earlier, we exercise a robust test when we get a MACA request from another government department. Strict principles have to be observed, and we would never willingly offer help if we felt that it was available elsewhere in government or, indeed, from the commercial sector.