Modern Slavery Bill

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 23rd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, there is guidance as to the length of time noble Lords should address the House on Report. The noble Lord has very graphically illustrated the point he is trying to make, but I ask him to wind up this contribution on Report in the interests of the other Members present who want to hear the following business.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I can very easily move to the end. I quoted that last example because it indicates how, in the words of that fellow of 50, all migrant children are now regarded as the untouchables of Australian society. They have no place, no identity—nothing. When the Minister says that he does not think that we need to ban this once and for ever, I say that we do, because the reasons he gives for it being safe are the very reasons it happened at all. He says that it requires a court order, but it got a court order when it was done 50 years ago, relying on the fact that the order was endorsed or signed over by the orphanage or whatever local council had the authority. Therefore we cannot do that, as it is only the same situation. We have to stop the possibility of anybody doing this again in any circumstance. I want to see that point completely written into the Bill so that we ban this dreadful thing once and for all from ever happening in our society. We got it badly wrong last time; let us not even think of doing it again.

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 9th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, has consented to place her prerogative, so far as it is affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.

Clause 1: Seizure of passports etc from persons suspected of involvement in terrorism

Amendment 1

Moved by

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2014

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 30th July 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the draft order laid before the House on 7 July be approved.

Relevant document: 6th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 28 July.

Motion agreed.

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 30th July 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 45, Schedule 1, Clauses 46 to 53, Schedule 2, Clauses 54 to 66, Schedule 3, Clauses 67 to 70, Schedule 4, Clauses 71 to 74.

Motion agreed.

Data Retention Regulations 2014

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 29th July 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the draft regulations laid before the House on 21 July be approved.

Relevant documents: 7th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 7th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)]

My Lords, the regulations are made under the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act, which became law two weeks ago. They provide the detail of how communications providers can be required to retain data and the increased safeguards that will be in place for these data. They therefore form part of a wider package of protection, oversight and reviews—reviews that will be informed by, and inform, a wider public debate on these important issues.

At this point, I reiterate my thanks for the constructive approach taken by noble Lords during the passage of the Act, in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and her colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench.

These regulations relate specifically to communications data. That means the context of a communication—the who, where, when and how of a communication—and not the content. The regulations maintain the status quo, allowing those investigating such crimes to continue to have access to the evidence they need. They add no new powers; rather, they increase safeguards.

As I told the House when we debated the Act a fortnight ago, these regulations and the additional safeguards form a crucial part of our response to the European Court of Justice judgment on the EU data retention directive. That judgment called into question the legal basis for the retention of data in the UK, and these new regulations made under the Act play a key part in ensuring a new sound footing for retention. Therefore we need to have them in place before the House rises.

The regulations we are debating today are substantially the same as those we made available to Parliament during debates on the Act. As noble Lords may be aware, the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has done its usual helpful work with great speed, and I am grateful to it. Equally, I must thank my noble friend Lord Goodlad, and the members of the Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. They too have swiftly reviewed and reported on the regulations.

I now turn to the detail of the regulations. They will revoke and replace the 2009 data retention regulations. They will provide the detail and safeguards for data retention notices to be issued to communications providers under the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act. Such notices will be issued where necessary and proportionate. Under the new regulations, existing notices under the 2009 regulations will remain in force until the end of the year unless revoked. The regulations are categorical as to the types of data that communications providers may be required to retain, and these are a small subset of all the communications data that providers generate and process. These data types are no different from those covered under the 2009 regulations. Similarly, as with the 2009 regulations, security controls and provisions for financial compensation for providers are included in these regulations.

The key elements of the new regulations are the enhanced safeguards. The regulations make plain certain matters that have to be taken into account before the Secretary of State may issue a retention notice. To be clear, I state that Ministers have always taken their responsibilities when issuing notices very seriously. These regulations now set out key considerations on the face of legislation.

The regulations require the Government to take reasonable steps to consult providers before issuing them with a retention notice. Again, we have always consulted providers and have always worked closely with them as they undertake their obligations under the law. This is now included on the face of the regulations. The retention notices must also be kept under review. Further, the regulations will help us to work with communications providers by making a new data retention code of practice. In this code we will set out the best practice guidance for implementing data retention obligations.

The regulations now stipulate that a notice may require the retention of data for a maximum of 12 months. We have evidence that 12 months is an appropriate length of time for retaining data, including, as my right honourable friend the Home Secretary told the Commons during the debate on the Bill, the fact that half of communications data used in child abuse investigations is more than six months old. However, in circumstances where it is appropriate to retain data for less than 12 months, these regulations provide the flexibility to reduce the retention period.

As noble Lords who closely followed the debates on the draft communications data Bill will be aware, there was disagreement on the scope of the duties of the Information Commissioner in the 2009 regulations. These new regulations clarify that his duties include oversight of the security of data, the integrity of data and the deletion of data at the end of their retention. Further details on this oversight will also be specified in the new retention code of practice. In addition to these safeguards, we will be adding further protections that are not on the face of these regulations. These include amending the Acquisition and Disclosure of Communications Data Code of Practice to increase clarity and to reduce the number of bodies with access to communications data under RIPA.

As was discussed at length in this Chamber a fortnight ago, the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act will expire on 31 December 2016. There is no room to extend this sunset clause and these regulations will fall when that Act falls. Therefore, this House will need to return to these topics after the general election. To inform the debate ahead of new legislation, the Act requires the Interception of Communications Commissioner to produce half-yearly reports and requires a review of investigatory threats, capabilities and safeguards. David Anderson QC, the current independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, will undertake this review. These, in turn, will provide crucial background information for a Joint Committee of Parliament, sitting after the next election.

These regulations do not extend existing powers and they do not introduce elements of the draft communications data Bill. As my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has made clear, this Government still believe that the powers contained in that draft Bill are necessary to allow effective policing in the 21st century. The Government have begun the process of a wider review of investigatory powers. In combination with this, the sunset clause in the Act will require us, and for that matter those who disagree with us, to give these issues proper consideration once the review process has concluded, and after the general election next year. This will enable us to ensure that the legislative regime in this important area properly balances our rights to privacy and security.

These regulations, as with the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act which underpins them, add safeguards while otherwise maintaining the status quo. Maintaining the status quo is, however, an important job—these are vital regulations. The data that will be retained under these regulations are critical for the police and the security services to continue to do their job in keeping this country and those who live here safe. I commend these regulations to the House and I beg to move.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, as a Liberal Democrat and a former senior police officer I am acutely aware of the need to balance privacy and security. In these regulations, as my noble friend the Minister said, the Government appear to be maintaining the status quo with some additional safeguards, going a little further for example in enshrining what has been best practice to date into the new regulations. Pending the wholesale review of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act and related legislation, which we successfully negotiated with the Government and the Labour Party in the other place managed to get into the primary legislation, it is the best that we can do in the circumstances. On that basis we support the passing of these regulations.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the care he has taken in going through the detail today and to other noble Lords who have added their comments. I do not think it is necessary to repeat the arguments and debate we had during the passage of the Bill. We recognise, of course, the necessity for retaining data information and when tackling serious and organised crime. We made that clear. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, referred to our amendments in the other place. We think they improved the legislation and safeguards for the future. A complete review of RIPA was extremely important. We are very grateful that the Government accepted those.

As always, we have to be certain why and how we are collecting information. I think it is also clear that not only is that needed but these regulations were needed. When we had the debates in your Lordships’ House, the Constitution Committee recommended that these regulations did not wait until after the Summer Recess and I am grateful that the Government took that on board. We agreed with the committee and I am glad that the Government did. It makes sense and it is entirely appropriate that we have these regulations before us prior to the Summer Recess.

I have a couple of points that need clarification, if the Minister can help me. I think I am getting slightly confused on the six-monthly review about the roles of the Information Commissioner and the Interception of Communications Commissioner. Can he clarify what the relationship will be between them in undertaking the six-monthly review? Can he also confirm that when they review the legislation, because we have not had the time that we would normally have for consultation on these regulations, they will have the opportunity to review the operation of the regulations as well?

I am grateful to the Minister for making it clear and I think other noble Lords have added their expertise to that. Nothing in these regulations goes beyond the status quo and it is clear the Government have done the minimum necessary in the legislation. However, as he said, there will be further regulations required that extend the safeguards. Something we debated and discussed at some length—with differing views—was access to information. The Minister will recall the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and my noble friend Lord Rooker on this and how important it is that information is used appropriately, as well as the value of it. I know there are further regulations to come. Could the noble Lord say something about when we will see those regulations and what opportunity there will be for consultation on them? Can he also confirm that they will be approved by the affirmative procedure?

We are grateful to the Minister for bringing these regulations before us today before the Summer Recess. They have our support.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken on this. There has been a general welcome for these regulations, as there was for the Bill in general. I appreciate the support of the House in what has been a difficult matter for Parliament to resolve satisfactorily, and I believe it has done that. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that the regulations have passed in the House of Commons and so, with their passage through this House today—should that be the will of the House—they will come into force immediately. I am sure that is the wish of the House.

I am very grateful for the welcome given by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who knows how important this particular facility is in the pursuit of crime. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, speaks of course with a great deal of authority on this issue, and I am pleased that he has spoken with his successor, David Anderson, about the impact of these matters. I assure noble Lords that the correspondence which I promised at Second Reading is in the course of being prepared. I hope that it will provide suitable holiday reading for noble Lords when they go.

The Interception of Communications Commissioner has a direct role in these regulations, as noble Lords will know. Following amendments that were tabled in the House of Commons, this was included in the Act. The half-yearly reports mean that the Interception of Communications Commissioner’s functions will include reviewing and reporting to us on a six-monthly basis. That is important. David Anderson, the current independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, will also be undertaking his review of the investigatory effects, the effectiveness of the safeguards and the capabilities. Both of these reports or reviews will provide us with further guidance for considering this matter when we return after a general election. We will consider those reports and, indeed, the report of the Joint Committee that I hope will be set up by any future Parliament so that, when the sunset on the existing Act occurs, on 31 December 2016, there will be a proper succession of this important facility to keep us safe for the future.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. I asked the question because I thought that, when he spoke, he mentioned the Information Commissioner and not the Interception of Communications Commissioner. I was trying to get to the relationship between each of them when it comes to undertaking the six-monthly review.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The Information Commissioner has a role, as has been made clear. However, it is a continuing role in investigating this; it is not a question of reports or reviews. The six-monthly review is done by the Interception Commissioner, and the oversight of retained data in respect of security and deletion is a matter for the Information Commissioner. I will repeat that, because I may have got muddled in saying it: the six-monthly review is with the Interception Commissioner, while the oversight of retained data in terms of security, integrity and deletion is with the Information Commissioner. There are two different functions: one is about the review of the process, the other is about a continuing commitment to make sure that information is not retained which should not be retained. I hope I have made that clear; I am sorry for the confusion in making it so.

Motion agreed.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2014

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 28th July 2014 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2014.

Relevant document: 6th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)]

My Lords, the safe use of legal firearms is a priority for this Government. We remain committed to strengthening the effectiveness of the firearms licensing regime as necessary in order to protect people from harm. We introduced provisions in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 to ensure that people with suspended sentences of between three months and three years are prohibited from possessing a firearm. The prohibition includes antique firearms and is for five years from the second day after sentence. We took this action in response to a recommendation which was made by the Home Affairs Committee in 2010. The committee recommended that persons with suspended sentences should be prohibited from possessing firearms in the same way as those who have served custodial sentences are so prohibited. The provision, which amends Section 21 of the Firearms Act 1968, came into effect earlier this month.

It was always the Government’s intention that those individuals prohibited from possessing a firearm by virtue of being subject to a suspended sentence should have the right to apply to a court to remove the prohibition. Unfortunately, this right was not included in the original provision, which is why we are seeking an amendment now. As soon as the legislation is amended, any person affected by the prohibition will be able to apply to the Crown Court, or in Scotland to the sheriff, for its removal. It is therefore important that the provision is implemented in the shortest time possible. I commend the order to the House.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, it feels like only yesterday that we had long and ongoing discussions about the anti-social behaviour Bill, and yet here we are, back already with an amendment to it. Obviously the amendment is necessary and I am grateful to the Minister for his candour in admitting that it was a mistake at the time which needs to be rectified. That is most helpful.

The order is limited, but the Minister will recall the wider discussions we had on this issue when we debated it. I was pleased to hear him say that the Government are committed to improving the system. He knows that we were critical of these clauses, and while we welcomed the changes, we did not think that they went far enough. This order is about the appeal process, which was something that was of concern to us when we looked at the granting of certificates and licences. We were critical of the piecemeal approach to making changes, and he will recall the discussions we had at the time. One of our strongest criticisms around the issue of appeals was in the area of domestic violence. We were disappointed when the Government rejected our amendment to provide that where there was substantiated evidence of a history of domestic violence, there should be a presumption against having a firearms certificate or a shotgun licence unless there are grounds for exemption.

We raised this issue because of evidence presented to the IPCC, and then set out in its report, on the appalling and tragic death of Mrs McGoldrick by Michael Atherton. It was quite clear that one of the reasons that Atherton was able to hold a legal firearm was because of flaws in the decision-making process in that, as the IPCC put it, the fears of an appeal were placed above the evidence of domestic abuse. Given all the problems such as his drinking and his violence, the report also said that his certificates were reviewed and a final warning letter was sent that,

“advised him that any further reports indicating any form of irresponsible or irrational or uncontrollable behaviour would result in the immediate revocation of his certificates”.

They were not taken away then because of the fear about his ability to appeal and now we are discussing appeals again today.

--- Later in debate ---

We are saying to the Minister that, in looking at appeals, there needs to be a much wider consideration of the process, the place and the implications of the process of appeal in the decision to grant licences. Clearly sometimes it is inappropriate, as it was in the case of Michael Atherton, who then murdered his former partner. We support the order but hope the noble Lord can say that the Government are going to reconsider the impact of the appeals process on decision-making and that the police should be able to take into account the evidence we asked for, not just convictions, as is currently the case.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Baroness for her contribution in debate to the passage of this order. I know exactly the feeling which lies behind her comments and I think that, to a very large extent, there is some common ground between us. Certainly, both of us would view domestic violence and domestic abuse as being totally wrong, whoever the perpetrator.

This issue has moved up the political agenda. We should acknowledge that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, Theresa May, has talked frequently on it. The Prime Minister made a speech last week in which he mentioned it. The shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, has similarly pointed out the importance of tackling domestic abuse and domestic violence. I understand that. This order is not directed solely at domestic violence cases; it is a general order that enables people who have been disbarred from having a licence because of a caution or, as the law provides, a conviction, to apply for removal of the prohibition. I am sure that the noble Baroness in her support for the order does not want to remove the right of appeal from people in such circumstances.

The noble Baroness asked—and it is a fair question—whether the increase in community resolutions to deal with domestic violence will mean that more perpetrators of domestic violence are able to get firearms licences. The Government have taken decisive steps to ensure that community resolutions are used only in those cases where they are suitable. There must be cases where such resolution is suitable. We have also strengthened the way in which domestic violence is considered in relation to firearms licensing applications. New guidance was published in July last year. It is clear that evidence falling short of a conviction, which would include a community resolution, can be taken into account when deciding on suitability for a licence.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That is very helpful. Can the Minister assure me that the guidance refers to community resolution, or does it refer just to it not having to be a conviction or caution?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I cannot categorically say that, but the advice I have is that community resolution would be included. Of course, I am prepared to write to the noble Baroness; it is difficult when we are at the end of a session like this to give proper advice to her.

Each case must be assessed on its merits. I have always said that it is important that police discretion should lie at the bottom of these issues. Evidence of domestic violence will generally indicate that a person should not be permitted to possess a firearm. I say here on the record that that is the Government’s position. We have provided guidance on the updated provisions in a Home Office circular. Authorised professional practice on firearms licensing has been brought in by the College of Policing to complement the Home Office guidance and to ensure consistency and high standards across police firearms licensing departments. Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary will also conduct an inspection of firearms licensing departments in early 2015.

I have before me details of some cases which I do not think will necessarily add to the debate this evening, but if I can write to the noble Baroness, I will do so. I could include, for example, the details of the Atherton case and show how that fits into the context of these orders. As we know, domestic violence is already covered by a whole range of criminal offences. The question that I think lies at the heart of the noble Baroness’s challenge is whether there should be specific mention in law of domestic violence. We need to think very carefully about that because the graduation between violence and domestic violence is often a difficult one. The established law provides for the police to prosecute in domestic violence cases.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I do not wish to detain the Committee and I am particularly grateful for the Minister’s offer to write to me. I know it is difficult; I said to him earlier that I wanted to raise the issue and I am grateful he has allowed me to do so. From what he said there does not seem to be a mile between us on this, but the difference is that we are suggesting that a conviction for domestic violence should lead to a presumption against being able to obtain a weapon. He says that will be covered in guidance, but the IPCC was quite clear that the discretion the police had made them very nervous about rejecting a licence, even in the case of Michael Atherton, because the appeals process can be challenging and is very expensive. I will not pursue it today, but if, when he writes to me, he can look at whether the guidance that now exists would address the failures in the Atherton case, that would be very helpful. I would be grateful if he could do that.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Baroness for that. It is important to understand that the order we are considering is about an appeal to a court—the Crown Court in the case of England or the Sheriff Court in the case of Scotland. It is important not to conflate that with the police’s view of whether they should grant a licence for another situation where there is suspicion of domestic violence. I understand that the noble Baroness wished to raise it, but it is a slightly different issue. It is important not to conflate the purpose of this order with the broader question of how we tackle domestic violence. I beg to move that the order be considered.

Motion agreed.

Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd July 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the draft order laid before the House on 30 June be approved.

Relevant documents: 5th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 6th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 21 July.

Motion agreed.

Police Reform

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement on police reform that was given earlier today in the House of Commons by my right honourable friend Theresa May, the Home Secretary. The Statement is as follows.

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement about our ongoing work to ensure the highest standards of integrity in the police. I have always been clear that I believe the vast majority of police officers in this country do their job honestly, and with integrity. They fight crime in our villages, towns and cities. They deal with dangerous criminals, strive to protect the vulnerable, keep our streets safe and have shown that they can cut crime even as we cut spending. Under this Government, crime is down by more than 10% since the election, proving that it is possible to do more with less. But as I have said before, the good work of the majority threatens to be damaged by a continuing series of events and revelations relating to police conduct.

That is why, over the last 18 months, the Government have been implementing a series of changes to improve standards of police integrity. The College of Policing has published a new code of ethics, which makes clear the high standards of behaviour that are expected from all police officers. A national list of police officers’ pay and rewards, gifts and hospitality is now published online, and their final list of business interests will be published for the first time later this summer. A national register of officers struck off from the police has been produced and made available to vetting and anti-corruption officers in police forces. The Government will legislate later this year to ensure that officers cannot resign or retire to avoid dismissal in misconduct hearings. We have beefed up the Independent Police Complaints Commission so that, in future, it can take on all serious and sensitive cases involving the police. In addition to these specific measures, many of our other police reforms—the creation of the College of Policing; direct entry into the senior ranks; the election of police and crime commissioners; the changes to Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary—will make a positive difference when it comes to police integrity.

Since I began the Government’s programme of work to improve public confidence in the police, further events and revelations have reinforced the need for reform. We have had reports on the misuse of stop and search, and the poor police response to domestic violence. We have had the findings of the Ellison review, which examined allegations of corruption during the initial deeply flawed investigation of the murder of Stephen Lawrence. We have had Sir David Normington’s review into the Police Federation, which recommended change ‘from top to bottom’.

The measures we have introduced are vital, but we cannot stop there, so I want to tell the House about my plans for further change. I want to open up policing to the brightest and best recruits. The Government have already introduced direct entry to open up the senior ranks of the police and bring in people with new perspectives and expertise. In London, the Metropolitan Police received 595 applications for between five and 10 direct-entry superintendent posts. Some 26% of the applicants were from a black or minority ethnic background, compared with 8.6% of traditional recruits, and 27% were female. In addition, using seed funding that I announced at the Police Federation conference in May, the Metropolitan Police is setting up “Police Now”, the policing equivalent of Teach First, which will attract the brightest graduates into policing. However, I want to go further. The College of Policing will undertake a fundamental review of police leadership. The review will look at: how we can go further and faster with direct entry; how we can encourage officers to gain experience outside policing before returning later in life; and how we can open up the senior ranks to candidates from different backgrounds. The review will start immediately.

In addition to these reforms, I also want to ensure that the systems and processes that deal with misconduct by police officers are robust. That means, where there are cases of wrongdoing, they must be dealt with effectively, and, where necessary, appropriate disciplinary action must be taken. In March I announced I would be creating a new offence of police corruption through the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill, but this alone is not enough. The police disciplinary system is complex. It has developed organically rather than been structured to fit its purpose. It lacks transparency for the public, it is bureaucratic and it lacks independence.

So today I can tell the House that we will be reviewing the whole police disciplinary system from beginning to end. This review will be chaired by Major-General Clive Chapman, an experienced, independent and respected former Army officer, and I want it to draw on best practice from the private and public sectors. I have asked Major-General Chapman to look for ways to ensure that the disciplinary system is clearer, more independent and public focused. I intend to consult publicly on the policies that emerge from the review later this year. In addition to the review, I want to make some specific changes to the police disciplinary system. In particular, I want to hold disciplinary hearings in public to improve transparency and justice. I will launch a public consultation on these proposals later this year.

In my Statement on the Ellison review on 6 March, I said I would return to the House with proposals to strengthen protections for police whistleblowers. Police officers and police staff need to know that they can come forward in complete confidence to report wrongdoing by their colleagues. So the Government will create a single national policy for police forces on whistleblowing to replace the current patchwork approach. This will set out the best principles and practices on whistleblowing, and ensure consistency of approach across all forces. Following the publication of HMIC’s integrity inspection, I am prepared to consider putting the whistleblowers’ code on a statutory basis. We will also require forces to publish more information on the number of conduct issues raised by officers and the action taken as a result. From 2015 onwards, the Home Office will collect and publish data about conduct and complaints brought by police officers and police staff about their colleagues. But I still want to go further, so in the autumn I will launch a public consultation on police whistleblowing. The consultation will look at a range of new proposals to protect police whistleblowers. For example, I want to consider how we can introduce sealed investigations—which prevent both the force and suspects learning that an investigation is taking place—into serious misconduct and corruption by police officers.

I also want to take an in-depth look at the police complaints system. Last year, I announced reforms to the IPCC to ensure that all serious and sensitive cases are dealt with by the IPCC. This included the transfer of resources from the police to the IPCC and measures to ensure that the IPCC has the right capacity to deal with demand. As I told the College of Policing conference in October, this work is on track and the IPCC will begin to take on additional cases this year. But now is the time to build on those reforms. Public satisfaction surveys on the handling of complaints show that satisfaction levels remain consistently low. According to the Crime Survey for England and Wales, less than a quarter of those who complain to the police are satisfied with the outcome of their complaint. The overall number of complaints being handled independently is still far too low. This year, a review undertaken by Deborah Glass, the former deputy chair of the Independent Police Complaints Commission, found that 94% of cases referred to the IPCC in 2012 were referred back to be dealt with by the police.

Police and crime commissioners are locally developing new and innovative approaches to police complaints. In Thames Valley, Anthony Stansfeld has announced a complaints, integrity and ethics committee to provide scrutiny on how the force handles complaints. In Greater Manchester, Tony Lloyd has appointed an independent complaints ombudsman to resolve complaints before they become part of the complaints system. We need the police complaints system to keep up with the changes we have seen in police structures, to reflect the changes made locally by PCCs and chief constables, and to meet public expectations. So today I will launch a review of the entire police complaints system, including the role, powers and funding of the IPCC and the local role played by police and crime commissioners. The review will look at the complaints system from end to end, examining the process every step of the way and for all complaints from the most minor to the most serious. The review will commence immediately and conclude in the autumn this year. It will include a public consultation on proposals for a system that is more independent of the police, easier for the public to follow, more focused on resolving complaints locally, and has a simpler system of appeals.

The measures that I have announced today will ensure that we are able to examine the entire approach to cases of misconduct, improper behaviour and corruption. But in working to ensure the highest standards of police integrity, I want to leave no stone unturned. This year, I commissioned Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary to carry out a review of anti-corruption capability in police forces. HMIC is also carrying out an inspection of police integrity as part of its planned programme of inspections for 2014-2015. In addition, I have agreed with the chief inspector that HMIC’s new programme of annual inspections of all police forces, which will begin later this year, will look not only at a force’s effectiveness and efficiency but at its legitimacy in the eyes of the public. Every annual inspection will therefore include an examination as to whether each force’s officers and staff act with integrity.

Together these measures represent a substantial overhaul of the systems that hold police officers to account. They will build on our radical programme of police reform and they will help to ensure that police honesty and integrity are protected, and that corruption and misconduct are rooted out. That is what the public and the many thousands of decent, dedicated and hardworking police officers of this country deserve. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Baroness has picked up from where we were talking yesterday. I challenged her on how she viewed the role of the PCCs under a future Government headed by the Labour Party. She had no answer then—and it would appear that she has no answer now—as to what role they might have.

I agree with her about Bob Jones. He played an important role in the policing of the West Midlands area. I am sure she agrees with me on the role that Nick Alston plays in Essex and the important and innovative way in which he has undertaken his responsibilities there. Accountability to local communities, through the PCC, is at the heart of policing and I agree with the noble Baroness that it would be very useful to discuss these issues at a future date. I would like to hear how she plans to deal with police accountability to local communities.

The noble Baroness is right about how much we depend on the police and that they are held in high regard by all of us. She pointed to a couple of cases—Hillsborough and the tragic murder of Stephen Lawrence and the investigations thereafter—which raised questions for all of us who are interested in police integrity. I agree with her that professionalism is undermined by misconduct. I am sorry the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, is not in his place today and it is a pity that he has not participated in police debates recently, because his report was a genuine effort to look at ways of dealing with this matter. However, the Government are responsible and must take their own view of how to deal with these matters. They quite rightly chose not to merge the Independent Police Complaints Commission with HMIC but to look at the role of these bodies separately, through reviews which will report quickly, in the early or late autumn. These will find ways of making sure that the pattern of accountability which we set for the police and the ability to inquire into police misconduct effectively can be set in place promptly. It would be reckless to do that sort of thing without proper review and consultation. I make no apology on behalf of the Home Secretary for her announcement of those reviews. They are a way of making sure that in future we have a structure which is capable of satisfying demands for the highest standards of policing.

[Lord Dear (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement. I endorse its subject matter and I am delighted to see leadership mentioned. It does not get a bold headline but it is in there and Members of your Lordships’ House will know that I have pressed that subject before. The fact that leadership needs ventilation by attachment to outside bodies is well taken. I have two questions for the Minister: one on leadership and one on another matter. Does he agree that, with good-quality, robust, visible leadership, all the issues of probity, ethics, due process, professionalism and so on are almost superfluous because they would flow naturally from it? Without good-quality leadership, any of the things I have enumerated would struggle to succeed. Leadership, therefore, needs not only to be endorsed, as it is in the report, but lifted to the top of the list, together with a proper career path for those who are recruited into the service with those attributes. Will leadership be one of a number of issues or is it going to be one of the prime issues that will lead the rest through?

Secondly, if leadership is a key to the door, this is surely a door with at least two locks. We have talked about the first metaphorically. The second key to the door is the structure of the police service. There is nothing in the list we have heard today on structure. There is a balance to be struck which is, sadly, out of kilter at the moment. Wherever I go in the police service or whenever I talk to the many people who are outside the service but interested in it, the question is always why we do not have a national force or a regional force; there are too many forces. I take no view on that other than it needs addressing. I am a great believer in loyalty to cap-badge and locality but the fact that we have the National Crime Agency at one end and police and crime commissioners at the other means there is a great gulf in the middle. So my question to the Minister is: will there additionally be an in-depth review, perhaps along the lines of what has been mentioned in the Stevens report, of the whole structure of the British police service, in which leadership and everything else can flourish?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Dear, who speaks with a great deal of authority on this whole issue.

The question of leadership is at the heart of the Statement because, as the noble Lord will know, the Home Secretary recognises that leadership is the key to achieving police reform. The noble Lord will share that view. It is therefore very much a key feature of this Statement. Probity is important and the noble Lord will understand that the reinforcement of the professionalism of the police by having proper measures for probity as part and parcel of this package is a very important thing. I hope the noble Lord will also acknowledge that the establishment of the College of Policing has led to a remarkable transformation of policing. Indeed, the leadership that it is providing to the force through the code of ethics and the many other aspects of policing that it is addressing is very important.

I agree with the noble Lord that in the long term we perhaps need to look at the structure and the balance of resources. There will always be arguments. I come from a very rural part of the country, where it is very easy for people to feel almost overlooked. But there are also places where the pressures on policing are much greater than they are where I live. Those issues will not go away. What the Government have done with the formation of the National Crime Agency is facilitate the ability to deal effectively with those things that operate across borders while at the same time enabling local policing to take place, governed by local police and crime commissioners.

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that this report is a tale not so much of poor structures—although there are poor structures—but primarily of a failure of leadership in the police force, as the noble Lord, Lord Dear, suggested? Therefore, will he accept that I welcome the concept of more direct entrants into the police force, and I hope that special priority will be given to members of the Armed Forces who are being made redundant despite their fine records, who could come into the police force and do great good work? If there is a structure that needs changing, it is that we should re-establish a proper college for the senior officers of the police force to be induced into the police force and to take the leadership role in it.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I agree with my noble friend. It is certainly the case that many people who have been active in the Armed Forces have qualities that could be important in policing. I do not know that I would go as far as to say that they should be given priority but they should clearly be encouraged to apply for those posts.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, while I welcome the Statement by the Home Secretary—and clearly there are serious issues with the current investigation of police complaints and the police’s disciplinary procedures—is the Home Secretary aware of the dangers of articulating direct entry at a senior level and changes to the inspectorate of constabulary, where we now have for the first time a Chief Inspector of Constabulary who has no experience of policing and a majority of inspectors who have no experience of policing? Is she also aware of the impact on senior officers of the utmost integrity who have spent their whole careers in the police service of saying that those changes are a positive difference to police integrity, and the impression that she appears to be giving to the public about the integrity of the police service at the moment? Is the Home Secretary aware that every time she runs down the police service in this way it makes the police service less effective because the police service relies on public confidence and trust to ensure that the public give information and support the police in their work?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I refer my noble friend to the second paragraph of the Statement that I have just read, in which the Home Secretary pays tribute to individual police officers and the way in which they conduct themselves, “honestly and with integrity”.

If I am honest with my noble friend—and I think I owe it to him to be honest—the way in which he presented his question shows all the problems that policing has: it is the notion that only the police can know how to manage the police. What the Home Secretary has done with this series of reforms is to say to the police service, “There are better ways of doing these things. Other people will be able to get you to the place you want to be”. It is very important that we back those changes. At the heart of it all, the degree to which the police have seen themselves and their problems as being something for them alone is something that the public are no longer prepared to tolerate.

[Lord Blair of Boughton (CB)]

My Lords, I agree with, and congratulate, the Home Secretary and the Home Office team on a great deal of this Statement. A clear wind of change needs to blow through the police service and it is to be welcomed. A great deal, but not all—I will not tire the House with a view on PCCs; the Minister and I have discussed that enough. My question refers to an odd phrasing in the Statement that I have never come across before. The phrase of “sealed investigations”—I use that term in inverted commas—into police corruption. The police service, especially the Met, has for years carried out secret and successful investigations into police corruption.

I was talking about the Statement to the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller. We agreed that her officers had assisted the Met in some of those inquiries. I carried out an overt inquiry into police corruption which led to prosecution and convictions at the Old Bailey. The idea that I would have withheld the information I was receiving from the man in charge of running the police service from the top, who at the time was the noble Lord, Lord Condon, would be unthinkable. I ask the noble Lord to ensure that those charged with this initiative seek to learn from the previous experience of those who have spent most of their lives investigating police and other corruption, including some of those who sit in your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am very happy to take the noble Lord’s advice on that matter. What he had to say was very interesting.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

Does the noble Lord recollect, and indeed agree with, the historic words of the late Lord Callaghan in relation to the police when he said that our police are not a gendarmerie, they are not a corps d’élite, they are citizens in uniform? Does he accept that, although sophisticated systems may well assist the police, the essence of being a police officer is very much encapsulated in the words of James Callaghan? While accepting—indeed, the noble Lord will remember that I raised on many occasions the need for a comprehensive inquiry on the lines of that conducted by Sir Henry Willink in the early 1960s. There were so many problems that coalesced and it was the only way of dealing with them.

It seems to me, respectfully, that the inquiries that are now being considered are indeed wide-ranging and deep-seated. A great deal will depend on the collation of the evidence. I would ask for one matter, which has already been raised by my noble friend, to be considered in addition. We should ask ourselves the question whether, in the 21st century, we can carry on for very much longer with 43 police forces without considering a process of rationalised amalgamation.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That takes us back to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dear. I think that I explained that the issue appears different from different points of view. I am not sure that a change in size or relocating a responsibility to a regional level or whatever would necessarily lead to more effective policing—in fact, my own prejudice suggests that it would not. However, I agree with the noble Lord’s dictum. It goes back further than Jim Callaghan to Peel himself, who said that the people are the police and the police should be the people. That is the concept that lies behind the British police force, which certainly differs from police forces in other parts of the world.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, we are grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement and for telling us of this blizzard of inquiries that the Home Secretary is setting up—I see him shaking his hand as though he feels that that is being pejorative. The point to which I hope the Minister will respond is that these are all interrelated issues; they have an impact on each other. Single, separate inquiries are not necessarily the best way to resolve all these matters. There is a question of how all this will be made to cohere and to be effective in delivering the sort of police service that I am sure all noble Lords want.

The Minister also referred to requirements that would be placed on the police to report—I think that it was in relation to whistleblowers and what happens to the issues that they report. Does the Minister agree with me, with those in Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and with those in the Independent Police Complaints Commission who think that one aid to transparency would be the proper recording by the police of those instances in which they use restraint or force against members of the public, and for those statistics to be publicly available so as to be measured against any complaints that may be received?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

When I was waving my hand, I was not making an offensive or hostile gesture to the noble Lord, Lord Harris; I just wanted to explain that they are not inquiries but reviews. They are reviews that are taking place with the Home Office. He wanted to know how the reviews would work together. They are all short term and are designed to report within the next six months, with some even shorter, in order to bring together, as the noble Lord quite rightly pointed out, the parallel policy formation that will be necessary to make sure that we have coherence.

On the accountability of restraint, I will suggest that that is something that the College of Policing could consider. It is the sort of issue on which it quite rightly makes recommendations and issues guidelines. I am sure that it will be interested in the noble Lord’s comments, but I cannot comment today.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, the “Plebgate” incident at the gates of Downing Street took place on 17 September 2012. At that time, the commissioner of the Met decided to investigate himself. Does my noble friend recollect that, when he answered a Question from me on 1 April this year, 18 months after the incident had happened, he said, first, that HMG had no role in deciding who should investigate it? Therefore, I ask him whether in future it would be possible for the Commissioner of the Met to decide to investigate such an incident rather than having it independently investigated.

Secondly, my noble friend told me in his Answer that although the IPCC had requested that the Metropolitan Police should publish its report once the misconduct proceedings had been concluded, it would be for the Metropolitan Police to decide whether to publish the report. Does that example not reveal a very unsatisfactory state of affairs? And, incidentally, when will we get the final report on that incident?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I cannot answer my noble friend on the latter point. All I can say is that the events surrounding my right honourable friend Andrew Mitchell and the process that followed are among a number of issues informing the present debate about policing and the way in which the police deal with complaints. It is good that my noble friend has had the opportunity of raising the matter again today; it belongs to a whole collection of matters, including Hillsborough and the Stephen Lawrence murder, that have led us to believe that it is right for us to undertake these reviews.

EU: Justice and Home Affairs (EUC Report)

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)]

My Lords, I join in expressing gratitude to all noble Lords who have participated in this debate; fewer, perhaps, than might be considered enough to do justice to a very thorough report and a serious matter, but of course it is soon after we discussed matters last Thursday evening. I am delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Boswell of Aynho, in his place. I thank him and, through him, all members of the House’s European committee for their excellent work. They do great service to the House by the diligence with which they study these matters. I thank, in particular, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. A bit like Frank Sinatra, I cannot imagine that this is his last appearance, but this is, I am sure, his last appearance as chairman of Sub-Committee F. I am grateful to him and to his sub-committee for the work they have done on this report and I pay tribute, along with all noble Lords, to the work that he has done on a whole range of matters. It has been of great benefit to the House in European affairs and I am sure that that will continue. If not as chairman, I am sure that he will still be involved in other ways.

The sub-committee’s inquiry, to which my ministerial colleagues from the House of Commons, James Brokenshire and Shailesh Vara, gave evidence in February, was very thorough. Its subsequent report was of its usual extremely high standard and the Government were grateful for such a well considered contribution to the debate. As noble Lords will be aware, the new strategic guidelines in the field of justice and home affairs were agreed by the Prime Minister at the June European Council. The Government are pleased with the strategic guidelines, which reflect all our key priorities in this area. The Government were successful, as noble Lords will know, in securing a strong and clear reference to the need to tackle “misuse” of free movement and fraudulent claims. We welcome this and hope that it will lead to member states and the Commission being more proactive in addressing cases of fraud and abuse of human rights.

The new strategic guidelines also contain welcome references to the need to strengthen the EU’s external border, in particular through strengthening co-operation with countries of origin and countries used for transit. We were also successful in securing two explicit references to the need for action to tackle human trafficking, which reflect the importance we attach to the fight against modern slavery. Indeed, noble Lords will know that the Modern Slavery Bill is going through its Committee stage in the House of Commons at the moment. This is an area where the EU can and should be ahead of the curve and I hope that, in turn, so can we.

The overall messages of the new guidance are ones of implementation and evaluation of existing measures, and on strengthening practical co-operation rather than bringing forward new legislation. That is in keeping with the general tenor of the committee’s report. In a field where we have seen so much new EU legislation over the past few years, this is welcome. As noble Lords will be aware, the Government place particular importance on the full implementation of the prisoner transfer framework decision by all member states. We welcome the explicit reference in the guidelines to the need to improve cross-border information exchanges, particularly in relation to criminal records.

As noble Lords will know, the Government shared the disappointment of this House that a proper mid-term review of the Stockholm programme did not take place. We are therefore very pleased that we were able to secure a Council-led review mechanism in the new strategic guidelines. I think that was genuinely welcomed by all speakers when they referred to it. This review mechanism will give us an opportunity to work closely with the new Commission, and the current and forthcoming EU presidencies, to ensure that the Council continues to hold the Commission to account as concerns the proper implementation of the strategic guidelines. The Council now has a clear role in ensuring that the Commission’s future actions in this area are in line with the strategic guidelines agreed by the member states.

I will do my best to respond to all the points raised during today’s debate but, as usual, I promise to write to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, to copy all those who have spoken in on that letter and to place a copy in the Library if there are any that I do not address at this stage.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, asked specifically about the implementation of the European supervision order. I can confirm that we are preparing legislation on this matter and I hope that it will be in force by the end of this year. He also asked whether the Government would carry forward raising the proportionality issues and strengthening the yellow card procedure. As we made clear in our response to the committee’s report, the Government would like to see the yellow card mechanism strengthened. We want to have the scrutiny period extended from eight to 12 weeks and to extend the scope of the yellow card mechanism to include proportionality as well as subsidiarity. We also want to lower the threshold at which the yellow card is triggered.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, also asked whether the Government will have another look at the idea of a scorecard. I thank noble Lords for their further explanation as to how this matter would work. We will give the committee’s recommendation further reflection.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, in another of his excellent speeches, referred to Home Office culture and the need to support links in the EU where countries are weak and need support. The UK offers practical support to member states. For example, we have provided a wide range of support to Greece to assist with the implementation of its action plan on asylum and migration. It is obviously in our interests—is it not?—to make sure that the EU borders are secure and properly policed and that we do not have the difficulties at Calais which we do, simply because people have leaked through what should otherwise be secure borders.

It was nice that my noble friend Lord Maclennan of Rogart was able to speak in the gap. He asked whether the budget was adequate for work on drugs, particularly for the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction. The UK benefits considerably from the information we receive from the EMCDDA; but, as with all these negotiations, this Government have stressed the importance of budget discipline. That means that EU agencies must operate within their budget. We are satisfied that they can still do good work within that budget.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, asked me a number of questions. I will do my best to answer what I can now but I will be writing to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, as I have said, and if she does not mind I shall copy her in on that. It is a good way of making sure that everybody knows the answer.

The noble Baroness was concerned that the Government were not sufficiently focused on cybercrime and co-operation between the public and private sectors. I am surprised at that, given that whenever I speak I try to make it clear that we see it as a very serious issue. We fully support programmes that bring together the public and private sectors to share information on threats and to take co-ordinated action against them. I am happy to confirm on the record that we seek co-operation on cybercrime matters across a whole series of things, not just matters of security or even serious crime, but beyond to domestic incidents of cybercrime, which aggregated together can become very serious crime very quickly.

I am pleased that the noble Baroness noted that the report was helpful, informative and useful. I agree with her; I felt that the report did justice to the issues. I agree with her also that crime does not stop at Calais and that there is a need for European-wide co-operation in dealing with crime. I hope that she can be satisfied that when we discuss the Serious Crime Bill on Report these matters can be made clear in debate. There is no conflict between the Government’s policy on the matters contained within the report and our policy in legislating here within the UK.

I hope that noble Lords will be happy that I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, on the points that have been made and not answered in the debate.

Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014.

Relevant documents: 5th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 6th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)]

My Lords, this order was laid in Parliament on 9 July. The Government are seeking to amend the Police and Crime Commissioner Elections Order 2012, which sets out the rules governing the conduct of elections of PCCs in England and Wales.

Following the deeply sad and untimely death of PCC Bob Jones, your Lordships will be aware that a by-election for the West Midlands PCC is due to take place on 21 August. The instrument before the Committee today changes the existing provisions by making candidate addresses available online during ordinary elections and by-elections. The instrument goes further by seeking to raise voter awareness about candidates standing for PCC in their police area by providing for booklets containing candidates’ election addresses to be delivered to residential premises in the West Midlands by-election on a trial basis.

The Electoral Commission has been consulted about our proposals and it has lent its support to them. Indeed, the proposals stem from recommendations that the Electoral Commission made in its report on the 2012 PCC elections.

The police area returning officer—PARO—responsible for the by-election in the West Midlands stands ready to produce the booklets if the instrument is approved by Parliament. Before considering whether it would be appropriate to use printed booklets in future PCC elections, the Government will evaluate the impact on voter awareness during the trial.

I hope that the Committee will support these measures, which are intended to help voters make informed decisions when voting for their police and crime commissioner. Accordingly, I commend the instrument to the Committee.

[Lord Imbert (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, for putting some flesh on the bones of this proposal. None the less, I would address the cost of this.

As we know, at the time of the original elections, a YouGov poll showed that 65% of those polled did not want the system; 15% did and 20% did not know. None the less, the Government decided to go ahead with it and were a laughing stock when the election took place, when in some polling stations fewer than 10 people attended. I was told in the Chamber that the election cost £50 million.

Now, accepting that the whole system has cost £100 million to date, and if we pursue it until the regular time of the next elections we must accept that it will be another £100 million or so, is it right that this by-election money—another £4 million at the very least—should come out of the public purse as well? I know it is not in the Act, but when the Bill was passing through your Lordships’ House, like others I thought that if something happened to the police and crime commissioner, he or she would hand over to their deputy.

Did the Minister see the television production, “Meet the Police Commissioner”? If not, will he do so? It should be compulsory viewing for the whole Cabinet. It has not become a Whitehall farce but it is being talked about as a Westminster farce. It has become something of a laughing stock. When the police and crime commissioner in Kent allowed the television cameras in, she was asked by the interviewer about her daily workload. He asked, “What is the first thing you do when you arrive in the morning?”, and she said, “My nails”. She has paid herself £85,000. She has a staff of 16. When they get depressed and bored, she brings her dogs into the office to cheer them up. This really is an awful farce. If the Government do not do something to stop this, they will be the laughing stock.

If the by-election costs more than £4 million, could that come out of the money that has been set aside already for the running of the PCC system and not out of the taxpayer’s pocket, although inevitably at the end of the day it comes out of the taxpayer’s pocket anyway? I ask the Minister: how many more—and I mean more—accident and emergency departments are going to be closed in order to keep paying for it? We have already lost dozens of them. I know that the money has to come from somewhere. Would it not be better to spend that money on saving lives rather than saving red faces in the Home Office and the Government?

--- Later in debate ---

We support the order before us today. However, it is a very sad day for us for a number of reasons. We have lost a very impressive police and crime commissioner. The legislation creating police and crime commissioners has been shown to be flawed and unwanted. There has been a lack of interest and enthusiasm from the public. The unseemly haste with which the by-election is being organised is likely to disfranchise a number of people. The cost of this, when the number of front-line police officers is being cut and police stations are being closed, is to the great shame and discredit of the Government. This is a stop-gap measure, but I urge the Minister to give some clarity in response to the points that I have raised today. I would find that extremely helpful.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Imbert, for his contribution and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for her comments. The choice of the date of the by-election is not the Government’s; it does not lie with the Government.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I said at the very beginning of my comments that it had been called by two electors, one of whom I understand is now a member of UKIP. Although he was an independent candidate at the time, I wonder whether he will pop up as a candidate for another party in these elections.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for making that clear. Yes, she did say that the by-election was called by two people. All I am saying is that, in law, the Government have no locus in fixing the date of a by-election. The by-election is unwelcome both for political reasons, in the sense that having a by-election in August would not be the choice of any of us who really believe in democracy, and because of the circumstances which led to it; namely, the death of Bob Jones, who was a highly respected figure. Although, rather like the noble Lord, Lord Imbert, he was not entirely in favour of police and crime commissioners, he realised that it was an important job and he did it well.

It is important to address the question of money, because there are two sides to it. If you are going to hold an election, you need to spend the amount of money that it costs to have the clerks and the polling stations open and you need to meet the bare costs of an election. In this case, we estimate the cost to be £3 million. What we are discussing today is the cost of the leaflet and its provision. I understand, as noble Lords have said, that these are difficult times, and the Government are mindful of the need to keep public expenditure under control. However, the balance of advantage in this case is for there to be an informed electorate and the leaflet provides an opportunity for that to be the case. We consider that the leaflet will cost somewhere between £700,000 and £1 million, although we cannot be certain. We know that in certain forces the cost would have been as low as £300,000, but in the largest forces, of which the West Midlands is one, the cost is estimated to be £1 million. The Explanatory Memorandum makes that clear. I hope that there is no suggestion that this is not good value for money, because democracy never comes cheap. Those of us who have been involved in democratic politics all our lives know how important it is that people are engaged in democratic processes.

I should also emphasise that this money is not coming out of police budgets; it is coming out of direct Home Office budgets. Of course, it is funded by the taxpayer, as all government money is, but it is not at the expense of proper policing or the role that we would expect of the police.

I have to say that I did not see the “Panorama” programme; I read things about it but I have not seen it. As I think the noble Lord will understand, I am usually quite busy, not least in the House, and I do not see television during the week at all, so I missed it.

You have only to look at some of the successes that PCCs have brought. Consider the role that Bob Jones played in the West Midlands. The noble Baroness made reference to her former colleague in the Labour Government in the House of Commons, Tony Lloyd, and his role in Manchester. I can talk of Nick Alston in Essex, Adam Simmonds in Northamptonshire or Martin Surl in Gloucestershire. There are so many examples of individuals who have really made something of the job and brought something to effective policing. As someone who, I know, has spent his life extolling the importance of effective policing, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Imbert, will accept that.

The noble Baroness asked particular questions. She wanted to know about helpline accessibility. We intend to provide the booklets in alternative formats, such as Braille, and provide a helpline for the election. Of course disabled access will be available, because it is required by law at all polling stations. It is unfortunate: 21 August is not the time to hold a by-election. However, the law is the law. We have to have it on 21 August and deal with it, so not all the polling stations will be the normal ones. That is all the more reason why it is important that the electorate is informed in the proper way.

There has been a lot of ribbing about turnout. I shall not estimate the turnout. All I can say is that I am sure that all noble Lords present would want a better turnout at this by-election than the 12%-odd turnout in the West Midlands when we had the first PCC elections. Those elections were held, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said, at a time of year when we do not normally hold elections. Next time round, as she well knows, they will be in May, alongside local government elections. I believe that the opportunity of this by-election—unsought as it is—and this order will inform us about public response to the opportunity to elect their police and crime commissioners and seek to make those elections as effective as possible.

If it is necessary to bring legislation forward in future—secondary legislation, most likely—of course the Government will not hesitate to do that. I hope that we will have the general support of the Opposition in bringing it forward, because I am a little confused as to where they stand on how they are to provide for people to vote for police and crime commissioners in future if they are not fully in favour of the system. It will be interesting over the next few months, when the position will no doubt be clarified.