Police Act 1997 (Criminal Record Certificates: Relevant Matters) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2013

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the draft orders laid before the House on 26 March be approved.

Relevant document: 23rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2012-13, considered in Grand Committee on 21 May.

Motions agreed.

Sexual Offences: Investigation and Prosecution

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will invite the inspectorates of the constabulary and the Crown Prosecution Service, together with the social services agencies, to conduct an inquiry into all aspects of the investigation and prosecution of large scale sexual offences.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, sexual abuse in whatever shape or form is abhorrent and we rightly expect all agencies to learn the lessons from the horrendous cases that we have seen recently. Nationally, a joint inspection programme is being planned by Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate and the constabulary that will look at child sexual abuse and exploitation and this will address how agencies interact to protect children and ensure that offenders are brought to justice.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, I welcome very much the Minister's reply. Is it collective amnesia that has blinded us to the underlying circumstances whereby at least 27 police forces are investigating 54 alleged child grooming gangs? Why has investigating and prosecuting in so many different parts of the country taken so much time? Is it a fear of racialism or is it that many of these vulnerable girls come from care homes? I hope that what the Minister has told us will result in speedier co-operation between all the agencies.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble and learned Lord makes a very powerful case for working together across government. I think that noble Lords will know that bodies are already in place and that we already have a very considerable focus on child protection in this country. However, there has been a failure, and a failure to recognise the reality that many of these young people have experienced. That has been exposed in recent court cases. The Government are determined that the system should work. The system needs to work to protect these very vulnerable children.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that since it would appear that in only a minority of these cases—a small minority—is there a direct victim complaint, no real progress can be made until the law enforcement agencies are prepared to adopt more robust tactics, including infiltration and surveillance? Otherwise, we will only be dusting over this disgraceful practice.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think that all agencies are now very much on the alert. However, we are in effect looking back and trying to recover a situation that should never have got to this point. The intention of government should be to ensure that this does not happen again. Anyone whose job involves the protection of children should be alert to this fact. That includes local authorities, the police and those who are responsible for care homes, health agencies, schools, the probation service and housing. All these elements must come together. We have a statutory body—the local safeguarding children boards—in every local authority in this country. What are they doing if not seeking to protect the young children who are their responsibility? The Government are very alert to this and I hope that I am reassuring the House that we are determined that the system should protect the very people it was designed for.

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the themes that underpins the reporting of the child abuse scandals of the past is that the victims have failed to come forward because they did not think that they would be believed? There is plenty of evidence that the authorities charged with looking after these children did not believe the accusations when they came forward. What steps can be taken to improve the situation by ensuring that those victims coming forward—who have the courage to come forward—are going to be believed and listened to and that their complaints will be investigated?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, Damian Green, has set up a group designed to ensure that this is the case and that the police forces themselves are aware of the difficulties and the need to lend a positive ear to complaints from young children. My noble friend makes a very good point—that the point of failure in the system is that these allegations have not been listened to or taken seriously by the authorities in the past.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, the scale and type of sexual abuse has shocked the nation. Perhaps I may refer back to the Question from my noble and learned friend Lord Morris. Can the Minister confirm the number of serious, larger-scale sex abuse cases involving groups and gangs that have been investigated? My noble and learned friend suggested that there are about 54 such cases. The number is clearly over 30, which could mean that hundreds if not thousands of young people are suffering abuse at this moment. I listened carefully to the Minister’s answer and he was absolutely right about co-ordination. However, is he really confident that the Government have now got to grips with the matter and that the co-ordinated strategy which he spoke of deals with all aspects of these wicked crimes, including the reporting of them and the court proceedings?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I have in fact got a figure and it is a dramatic one: 2,409 children and young people were confirmed victims of sexual exploitation by either gangs or groups during the 14-month period from August 2010 to October 2011. Those figures speak for themselves and to the scale of what is being dealt with. I assure noble Lords that this Government are focusing their attention on the issue as much as any Government have done.

Police Act 1997 (Criminal Record Certificates: Relevant Matters) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2013

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Police Act 1997 (Criminal Record Certificates: Relevant Matters) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2013.

Relevant documents: 23rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2012-13.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, in moving for the Grand Committee’s consideration of this first order, I shall speak also to the subsequent order, as they operate jointly in addressing a common issue.

The Court of Appeal recently held that the Police Act 1997 and the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975 are incompatible with Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights in that they provide for the disclosure to employers of, and allow employers to ask about and take into account, all cautions and convictions on a blanket basis. The court held that this regime, in so far as it relates to historic and minor cautions and convictions, is disproportionate. While the Government is seeking leave to appeal this judgment because we believe that the Court of Appeal went too far in its judgment and did not give sufficient weight to the views of Parliament on these matters, it is vital that we ensure that the legislation reflects the judgment of the Court of Appeal while it remains in place and that the Disclosure and Barring Service can continue to disclose spent cautions and convictions, and that employers can take these into account, where it is necessary and proportionate to do so to protect vulnerable groups, including children. That is the purpose of the orders that I am presenting today.

The orders amend the exceptions order to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act and the Police Act so that, while maintaining important safeguards for public protection and national security, certain spent cautions and convictions will be filtered from, and no longer be automatically included on, a criminal record certificate issued by the Disclosure and Barring Service. Employers will not be able to take such filtered matters into account.

Full disclosure of cautions and convictions will continue to be required in respect of some employment decisions, such as police recruitment or posts relating to safeguarding national security. Further, all cautions and convictions for serious violent and sexual offences and for certain other offences specified in the orders, such as those directly relevant to the safeguarding of vulnerable groups, including children, will continue to be disclosed, as will all convictions resulting in a custodial sentence.

We are also changing the position in relation to service personnel and former service personnel. Currently, service personnel or former service personnel applying for any position covered by the exceptions order to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act would have to disclose previous convictions for all service offences, including those that have no civilian equivalent, such as being absent without leave. We are changing the position so that, once spent, these non-recordable disciplinary offences will no longer need to be disclosed.

For all other offences, the orders provide for the following filtering rules to be applied: cautions, and equivalents, administered to a young offender will not be disclosed after a period of two years; adult cautions will not be disclosed after a period of six years; a conviction received as a young offender resulting in a non-custodial sentence will not be disclosed after a period of five and a half years; and an adult conviction resulting in a non-custodial sentence will not be disclosed after a period of 11 years; but all convictions will continue to be disclosed where an individual has more than one conviction recorded.

The Disclosure and Barring Service will continue to see all cautions and convictions, whether spent or not, for the purpose of making barring decisions. Individuals who have been barred from working with children or vulnerable adults must not be offered such employment.

Following the Court of Appeal’s judgment, these changes will ensure that the disclosure of criminal records information remains proportionate and that, while avoiding unnecessary intrusion into people’s lives, public protection arrangements remain robust. I commend the orders to the Grand Committee for consideration.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, in principle, I certainly welcome the changes that these orders make. It is sensible to narrow the scope of the obligation to disclose convictions, particularly where they are of a less serious nature. However, there remain some issues on which I should be glad to have clarification. In particular, paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum states, as the Minister pointed out, that,

“no conviction resulting in a custodial sentence will be filtered”.

Does that include a suspended custodial sentence? I think that there is a nod from the Box—although it is not quite a Box—so I will take it that that is the case and I am grateful for the clarification.

The Minister identified the various periods of time after which disclosure need not be made. My honourable friend Jenny Chapman, in dealing with this statutory instrument yesterday, questioned the basis of the periods of time given. They are rather curious, ranging from, for example, 11 years for an adult conviction resulting in a non-custodial sentence to five and a half years for a young offender. Obviously, in the case of a young offender it should be a shorter period, but I just wonder why this rather odd figure of 11, on which the other figure is presumably based, was chosen.

My honourable friend also asked whether harassment or stalking offences should be disclosed if a perpetrator seeks to enter a profession in which they will work closely with vulnerable people. I understand that such offences will not be exempt from disclosure but perhaps the Minister can confirm that. She also raised a question about a conviction for online sexual offences—for example, downloading indecent images of children and the like. Again, I assume, but would welcome confirmation, that that also is a conviction that would have to be disclosed. It would certainly make sense if that were the case.

On the other hand—my honourable friend referred to this matter as well—in the run-up to the police commissioner elections we had a rather ridiculous set of circumstances arising where very old convictions for very minor offences served to disqualify people from being a candidate for that position. Because they were not custodial sentences, I do not know the extent to which these provisions would now change that rather absurd outcome. I hope that they would but, if not, perhaps the Minister will undertake that a review will be made of the provisions that affect the nomination and qualifications for the position of police commissioner—if that is not already in hand as a result of several people having been disqualified in the rather absurd circumstances that arose last year.

The Minister in the other place said that the matter would be kept under review—that is, how the exceptions and so on are working out and whether the list requires change at all. Perhaps the Minister could indicate how and when such a review might take place. It might take place in two or thee years’ time. Will it be conducted within the department or be subject to wider consultation?

Having said that, as I said, we certainly support the principle and, subject to answers on these rather detailed points, are happy to support the two orders, the second being consequential on the first. My honourable friends in the Commons voted against it yesterday because at that point the Minister was unable to give assurances around certain of these matters, in particular in relation to harassment and sexual offences having to be disclosed. If I am right in thinking that that has now been confirmed, of course we would accept that position. If not, we would ask the Government to think again about those categories of offence.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his welcome for these proposals. They are a rational response to the court’s decision. We have had an interesting exchange of views. I hope that I will be able to satisfy the noble Lord on all the points that he raised. To the extent that I do not, I hope that he will allow me to drop him a line on the matter.

The point that he made and that I would like to emphasise is that notwithstanding the changes, public protection, particularly of children and adults in vulnerable circumstances, is of paramount importance to the Government. In the Chamber earlier today I had to give some horrendous figures which gave us all a chance to reflect on these things. It is also right that we should acknowledge individuals’ wishes to put their past behind them, and to allow that to happen in circumstances where we can be fairly confident that public protection will not be compromised.

The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act aims to aid the employment and resettlement of ex-offenders who put their criminal past behind them. It does this by declaring certain convictions to be spent after a specified time has elapsed after the conviction. A spent conviction is deemed for most purposes never to have existed, and an ex-offender will not have to reveal it in many circumstances, including when applying for most jobs. The rehabilitation periods are determined according to the sentence imposed, in order to reflect the severity of the offence. Currently, a conviction resulting in a custodial sentence of more than 30 months can never be spent.

There must be a balance to ensure that members of the public, especially those groups at greatest risk of harm, such as children and adults in vulnerable circumstances, are adequately protected. The exceptions order of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act seeks to achieve this balance by excluding certain employment positions, bodies and proceedings from the general application of the Act. This means that where an individual applies for a specified job or role, such as working with vulnerable groups, including children, their spent convictions must be made available to the employer and may be taken into account.

Linked to this, the Police Act requires that all cautions and convictions, whether spent or not and regardless of how old or minor they may be, are disclosed on criminal record certificates issued by the Disclosure and Barring Service. It is this regime that the Court of Appeal has found to be incompatible, and which the orders we have debated seek to address.

I will go through some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. Perhaps I may begin by explaining that the orders introduce a mechanism to ensure that certain old and minor spent cautions and convictions no longer need to be disclosed and are no longer automatically included on criminal record certificates issued by the DBS. The introduction of such a filtering mechanism is a significant modification of the current public protection arrangements, and it is important that we approach the proposed changes with care. With that in mind, I am grateful for the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, to the debate today.

The noble Lord asked about what was a conviction and what was a custodial sentence. A conviction, which is any determination of guilt by a court, regardless of the sentence imposed, and a conditional and absolute discharge are both sentences following a conviction. A custodial sentence includes any sentence of imprisonment, including a suspended sentence. I hope that that helps the noble Lord in that respect and confirms the nod that he may have seen from my officials behind me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beecham]

I am grateful. There is one matter that I ought to have raised before: the provision is in relation to the dispensation from disclosure only if there is no other conviction on the individual’s record. Does that mean a conviction of any kind, or would the conviction have to be of a category that would otherwise create the obligation to disclose? If it is the former, then for a long time a very minor offence could require the disclosure, which would otherwise not necessarily be the case.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I agree with the noble Lord but, in fact, any conviction subsequent to a previous conviction will bring that particular element into play. I suspect that we will consider this area when we see how the new regime works. Is there not an enormous incentive for people who have a conviction not to get another? This is one of the real drivers of why these changes, which have been forced upon us by the Court of Appeal, may be welcomed for giving people an opportunity to rebuild their lives in such a positive way.

Therefore, I hope that the measures being proposed strike a balance between enabling offenders to put their past behind them while ensuring that public protection is not compromised. With that, I commend them to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975 (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2013

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975 (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2013.

Relevant documents: 23rd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2012-13.

Motion agreed.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Thursday 9th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to reply to this, the first substantial day of debate on Her Majesty’s gracious Speech. I think I am the 37th speaker and I thank all Members of the House for their contributions in these important subject areas. They have ranged far and wide, and way beyond the areas I have been briefed on, but that is the nature of having to wind up a debate of this kind. However, we have dealt with topics such as constitutional affairs, equalities, home affairs, justice and the law. My noble friend Lord Cormack complained that this is a thin Queen’s Speech, but I think noble Lords will agree that his definition of thinness perhaps differs from mine. He was a little concerned that this House would not have enough work to do. I think that is an unnecessary anxiety. As one who will be partly responsible for seeing through elements of this programme, I have to say that there will not be a shortage of things for noble Lords to do. It is very much in the tradition of this House that we scrutinise in a proper fashion.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, obviously has plenty of time because he can watch television programmes that I have never even heard of, but fortunately someone else spotted it while I was trying to assemble my notes. He asked me about the Constitution Committee report on the pre-emptive scrutiny of legislation. The report has only just been published and we have 60 days in which to respond. If we take that time, it is because we want to respond to it properly, but we will respond within the time. We take pre-emptive legislative scrutiny seriously, as we do post-legislative scrutiny. These things help to improve the quality of government.

As noble Lords have said, this debate has been a two-man operation. My noble friend Lord McNally and I work together well and quite a lot of this legislation will indeed be joint Ministry of Justice and Home Office legislation. Our two departments work closely together to, I think, very great effect.

Perhaps I can move on to some of the issues that noble Lords have raised. We heard that the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill will radically reform the way in which anti-social behaviour is tackled. Generally, it has been warmly welcomed by noble Lords. Through the introduction of the community remedy and the community trigger, it will focus response on the needs of victims and communities, which all too often are let down by the current system. That will give front-line professionals—the police, councils, housing providers and others—more effective and streamlined powers. As noble Lords will have heard, the Bill will also address a number of other important crime and policing matters, including making it easier for landlords to take swift and decisive action against their tenants, thus creating a powerful deterrent against problem behaviour. It will tackle irresponsible dog ownership. Although that has caused some amusement, it is certainly a very serious issue and one which, when I was a Minister in Defra, I was much exercised about. It will extend to any place the offence of owning or being in charge of a dog that is dangerously out of control. It is a measure that I think is long overdue. It will explicitly make an attack on an assistance dog, such as a guide dog for the blind, an aggravated offence. In addition, the Bill will target not only people who use illegal firearms but those who import or supply them. We need to send a clear message that people who are involved in this trade are as responsible as those who actually pull the trigger for the terrible harm that gun crime causes.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter both talked about the community trigger and expressed some concern about how effective it will be. There was a suggestion that there needed to be several complaints before the process came into play. It will become evident, when we take the legislation through the House, that this is not the case. The duty already exists on local agencies to deal with every report of an ASB incident, and many agencies already respond quickly. The community trigger will be used in situations where victims’ problems have been ignored and will give victims the right to demand that agencies take action. There is some evidence that some individuals have been ignored in the past in this regard, and this empowers them to demand that their complaints be taken seriously.

A number of noble Lords raised the issue of minimum unit pricing, including the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lichfield, and the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, who made a very powerful speech demonstrating his concerns that this issue has been ignored. In March 2012, the Government proposed a range of measures in the alcohol strategy to radically reshape the approach to alcohol and reduce excessive drinking. Public consultation closed on 6 February and we are carefully considering the views expressed. It is right that we consider these matters carefully before we rush to legislate and we will set out our proposals in due course. The noble Lord will know that the court in Scotland had indeed determined the issue, but the drinks industry is appealing against that. We do not want to get ourselves in a duplicate litigious battle on this. We are working on an alcohol strategy which will come to this House when we have it in place.

My noble friend Lady Harris was concerned about the effectiveness of the police force following budget cuts and thought that this might perhaps harm the degree to which police were able to tackle ASB. Again, this is not the case. Every part of the public sector has to play its part in cutting the country’s budget deficit, but police forces across the country are showing that they can meet this challenge. I pay tribute to them because crime is falling and front-line policing has largely been unaffected by these cuts.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, expressed concern about our immigration proposals, and other voices expressed concerns that there would be problems with those policy initiatives indicated in the gracious Speech. It is evident that there is clear support for ensuring that this country has tough immigration laws that prevent abuse of the system. We have been clear that people who do not meet our rules should leave the country and that foreigners who commit serious crimes should be deported from the UK in all but the most exceptional circumstances. I have no doubt that the House will want to support the proposed legislation to ensure that courts take notice. The noble Baroness suggested that our reforms would be ineffective. That is not the case; the reforms are bold and will bring about real change. There will be consultation with those organisations that are affected by these matters.

It is not true to say that landlords are feeling exposed by the suggestion that they, too, will have responsibility for making sure that properties are not let. The National Landlords Association has made it quite clear that it supports these measures to help regularise the legitimate letting of properties. This will be particularly effective in making sure that illegal immigrants cease to find it easy to get housing. Health workers, too, will have a responsibility for ensuring that the system is proportionate. People will not have to present a passport every time they see a GP but it is not unreasonable that health service provision in this country is available only to those who are legitimately allowed access to it.

The Government welcome people with the skills we need who want to come to this country to study, to work hard, to invest and to contribute to our society. However, in order to continue to attract those people, and to protect hard-working people here, the system has to be fair. It is only fair to expect people to contribute to our public services before they benefit from them. It is only fair to prevent those with no right to be here from accessing public services. It is only fair that hard-working taxpayers do not end up funding the “benefits tourism” that has been all too prevalent in recent times.

As noble Lords are clearly aware, Her Majesty’s gracious Speech referred to proposals to enable the protection of the public and the investigation of crime in cyberspace. We will bring forward our proposals as soon as possible, which may involve legislation. Noble Lords will wish to note that the cross-party Joint Committee that scrutinised our draft provisions concluded that,

“there is a case for legislation which will provide the law enforcement authorities with some further access to communications data”.

Turning to the offender rehabilitation Bill, all the contributions recognised that this was an important area and indeed welcomed the Government’s focus on it. Reoffending has been too high for too long. The case for a new approach is clear. We spend more than £3 billion a year on prisons and almost £1 billion annually on delivering sentences in the community. Despite this investment, almost half of all offenders released from prison offend again within 12 months. The very highest reoffending rates are among prisoners sentenced to custodial sentences of less than 12 months: nearly 60% reoffend within a year of release. Our reforms to rehabilitation will ensure that offenders are given targeted support to help them turn away from crime for good.

A number of noble Lords, including the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lichfield, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hollins, Lady Howe and Lady Williams, and the noble Lords, Lord Dholakia, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Lord Thomas and Lord Phillips of Sudbury, voiced their concern about the professionalism that supports the probation service. Professionalism lies at the heart of so much of public service. I understand that people are concerned that the rate and pace of change might affect the professionalism involved. However, we believe that it will be possible to bring together the best of the public, voluntary and private sectors and give them the freedom to innovate and focus on turning round the lives of offenders. We heard examples of where voluntary and third sector services had been remarkably successful in this area. We can build on that success, and I assure noble Lords that there is no intention that these contracts should be given just to big organisations. They will be given to voluntary and third sector organisations as well.

We expect the majority of staff who are currently in probation roles to transfer to new providers. It will be a managed transition, carried out under statutory provisions set out by Parliament. However, we must not forget our responsibility for public safety. That is why we are creating a new probation service, building on the expertise and professionalism already in place that makes an important contribution to public protection. I support the comments of noble Lords who have spoken on this subject. I think that we will have some good debates in this area and am grateful for the general welcome given to this important and overdue measure, which will provide an opportunity to tackle offenders with some of the highest reoffending rates.

The Government’s plans for criminal legal aid have come in for considerable criticism. As my noble friend Lord McNally, said, we are in consultation. It is a genuine consultation; the Government have not made up their mind. If noble Lords wish to have a meeting with my noble friend, he will be very happy to talk to them about their points of view so that the Government can bear them in mind.

We have an excellent tradition of legal aid—we have the best legal aid and the best legal profession—but we cannot close our eyes to the fact that legal aid costs far too much. We are clear that the system will continue to uphold everyone’s right to a fair trial, but that does not mean that we should not look at the way in which it operates. The consultation does not close until 4 June and the legal profession is actively engaged with my noble friend in discussing this matter, but, as I have said, the opportunity for discussion is extended to Members of this House. Our proposals present the fairest way to reduce the overall bill for advocacy at a time when businesses across the country are having to adapt to a very difficult climate.

Perhaps I may turn to the justice Bill. It is intended that an essentially dual-purpose justice Bill will be brought to Parliament later in this Session. First, it will reform the administration of Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service to ensure value for money for the taxpayer while maintaining quick and effective access to justice. Secondly, it is our intention that measures in the Bill will help us to disrupt the business models of organised crime groups. It will ensure that law enforcement agencies have the right tools and powers to disrupt their activities, including those of enablers and “kingpins”—if one might call them that—who may never come into contact with illegal commodities but who play a key part in directing crime.

Although the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill was not included in the Queen’s Speech, I suppose it was inevitable that it would be a matter for discussion. We heard from my noble friend Lord Fowler a passionate advocacy of the fairness and justice behind this Bill. Similarly, I respect the concerns of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Carey, and the noble Lord, Lord Dear, about the Bill. There is no subterfuge involved in this Bill not being mentioned in the Queen’s Speech.

[Lord Cormack]

Will Ministers in this House have a free vote as they had in the other House?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I can confirm that that will be the case. I for my part will be supporting the Bill, but that is my own position. I have listened to my noble friend Lady Stowell speak on the issue. I am sure that she will convince a vast majority of noble Lords of the rightness of this Bill, which is about giving those who want to get married the opportunity to do so while protecting the rights of those who do not agree with same-sex marriage. No one stands to lose, but we all stand to gain by building on a tradition of tolerance and inclusiveness. I must sum up, because I am going on a bit longer than I should.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I do not want to detain the noble Lord, but he is always generous and courteous in seeking to answer questions raised in the course of the debate. I raised a specific point about individual voter registration and the reserved power that the Government have over the Electoral Commission. I appreciate that he will not have time tonight, but if he could write to me on that specific point, I would be very grateful.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes, certainly I will. I have no information about any decision to be made on that.

[Lord Fowler]

Can my noble friend give some indication about Leveson and the Government’s reaction to the alternative royal charter put forward by the press? I simply want to know the Government’s position on that.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I have a note on that, and I realise that that was an important issue that was raised in discussion. Any proposed royal charter is submitted not to Parliament but to the Privy Council and must be considered against the Privy Council’s set criteria. The draft charter submitted by the newspaper industry has now begun that process. However, I should inform noble Lords that the royal charter published on 18 March and proposed by all party leaders has the support of all three party leaders. I hope that makes the position clear. I have little doubt that it will continue to be debated in this House, but the royal charter as proposed when we introduced it into the Crime and Courts Bill still has the support of party leaders.

[Lord Fowler]

Forgive me, but in summary does the royal charter which all three party leaders supported remain government policy?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes, that is a correct analysis of the position.

On devolution, there has been a lot of comment on Sir William McKay’s report. It takes a positive step forward on an important issue. Again, we will provide a suitable response to it in due course.

The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, among others, mentioned the SIA, a body for which I have enormous respect, and I have enormous respect for the work that she did there. The proposals are working their way through and we are looking to try to match the timetable that we have set ourselves. I was with the leaders of the SIA only the other day to agree the fee structure under the new arrangements.

I apologise if there are matters that I have not covered. I will write to noble Lords. This has been an engaging debate. The truth of the matter is that we will have plenty of opportunity of going into these matters in considerable detail when the Bills come to this House. I look forward to engaging with noble Lords on those occasions. Meanwhile, I thank them.

The debate adjourned until Monday 13 May.

Tourism: Visa Restrictions

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have assessed the economic impact on the United Kingdom tourism industry of new visa restrictions for visitors from Brazil.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, Brazil is an important partner for the UK and we are investing greatly in our diplomatic and economic ties. We have no plans to impose a visitor visa regime in Brazil. In the non-visitor categories, visa applications from Brazil in 2012 were up by 8% when compared with 2011, while in the same year almost 90% of those applications were successful and visas were issued.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, that is instant clarification and I thank the Minister for that. However, does not this kind of media misunderstanding and reporting demonstrate the fact that the tourism sector, despite its importance and huge potential for job creation, still believes that it is the Cinderella of British business sectors? Does this not argue for a much more joined-up, strategic approach between the Home Office and other government departments in partnership with the industry to ensure that Britain’s visa policy is not a disincentive to visitors and actually builds on the Olympic legacy?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think I can reassure the noble Lord that the Government do have a joined-up approach to visa policy and, indeed, to the tourism industry. Seeing visitors enjoying aspects of our life here and understanding more about this country is a key part of our strategy, and we want to encourage it. There is no difference of approach between government departments, and the Home Office is working hard to make sure that we have an efficient visa service.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, in the context of visas from Brazil, will the Minister pay some attention to the question of those coming over to Cardiff to the WOMEX world music festival, which is due to be held in October? One of the largest contingents is due to come over from Brazil. Can we have an assurance that there will be no difficulties whatever in getting visas for that purpose?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I have to thank the noble Lord for advising me of the date of this event, which I shall put in my diary. I was not aware of it. All I know is that the Home Office does try to assist events of this nature. I have certainly noted the context of the noble Lord’s question and I will make sure that the Home Office is aware of it. It is our intention that visitors to this country should be encouraged.

[Baroness Hooper]

My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister aware that not only Brazil, with its great potential, has difficulties over visas? Only yesterday, eight distinguished parliamentarians from Peru visited our Parliament. Not only did they have to send their valued diplomatic passports to Brazil for the issue of the visas, but they had to pay up to $800 each in order to obtain them. Is it not time that we returned to the tried and trusted system of the issuance of visas by our embassies abroad, where local knowledge and discretion can be applied?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

In the vast majority of cases, that is exactly what happens. If the delegation from Peru had some difficulty and had to pay the premium price for speedy and accelerated service, that lies in its own hands. It is important that people recognise that all processes, particularly ones that are designed to protect our security, have to be thorough. I reinforce the point that there is no problem with visas from Brazil. There are no visitor visas from Brazil.

[Lord Soley]

Are the Government taking seriously the triple whammy that has hit the tourism industry of the visas, the air passenger tax and the lack of runway space in the south of England? It means that British Airways goes to Madrid from South America, so of course many of the visitors from South America now stay in Spain and continental Europe. It is a triple whammy for the tourist industry, which would tell the Government that if they would only listen to them.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I accept what the noble Lord says, although he broadens the question way beyond the immediate and perhaps beyond my competence to answer it. All I can say to him is that we welcome visitors to this country, and that we as a department want to play our part in making sure that people who want to come here can do so as easily as possible.

[Baroness Chalker of Wallasey]

I am sure my noble friend is aware that it is not only tourist visas that occasionally give us major problems. In recent months, I have had instances not only from Brazil but from many other countries, particularly where people live outside a capital and where the visas are being issued only in a neighbouring country. I earnestly ask him to get the Home Office and the Foreign Office to look at this situation again, because it is denying us return visits that are well tied up with British investment.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend has a distinguished record as a promoter of British interests around the world, and I take very careful note of what she says. However, I reiterate that where we are dealing with countries where we require biometric co-ordinates, it has to be done properly, which sometimes necessitates it being an out of country application. I apologise that I cannot give particular details in response to my noble friend’s question, but I hope that assists her.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of recent reports from the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration, who has highlighted some very serious issues that cause delays in decisions on visa applications? Previously, the chief inspector has complained about his recommendations being accepted but not acted upon. This, as I know the noble Lord understands, causes huge problems for our economy and for our reputation abroad. Can the Minister give the House an update on the action that is now being taken to give effect to the inspector’s recommendations to address this problem?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think the noble Baroness is well aware that the Home Office has taken a decision about the UKBA, which will mean that the processing of visas is separate from enforcement from now on. This will make a considerable difference. I know John Vine and have a great deal of respect for him. His reports are always very high value and I believe that the UKBA is learning an enormous amount from the advice that he is giving them. The Home Office takes his report seriously.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, following the advice given to me by the Minister, I have been encouraging Iranian women applying for visas to this country to continue to do so. Unfortunately, however, I understand that while they are in an Arab country that can give them visas, they are required to stay for a long period before they can actually get them. The expense therefore remains prohibitive, which means that many students who wish to study here, whom the Government assure us they wish to come, cannot do so simply because of the delay and the huge expense of living outside their countries, where they cannot get their money out anyway.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Baroness makes a point that is based, I think, on her experience, and I take note of it. All I can say is that the visa service has to be deliberative because we have to maintain our security in this country. I am sure that the noble Baroness will understand that. However, it is our intention to make sure that it is as efficient as possible and encourages the maximum number of visitors, and indeed students, to this country.

Human Trafficking

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McColl of Dulwich]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the letter from Lord Henley to Lord McColl of Dulwich (DEP 2012-0194) of 1 February 2012, which has been placed in the Library of the House, what further steps they have taken to ensure compliance with European Union Directive 2011/36/EU on preventing and combating trafficking in human beings and protecting its victims, given the passing of the compliance deadline on 6 April.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend’s efforts to bring human trafficking to wider attention. The Government are confident that the UK fully complies with the requirements of the EU directive. We have extended extraterritorial jurisdiction so that we can prosecute UK nationals for trafficking regardless of where the offence occurs; expanded one labour trafficking offence; and amended legislation to protect trafficking victims in court proceedings. The victim care contract for England and Wales also reflects the directive.

[Lord McColl of Dulwich]

I thank the Minister for that reply, and for introducing the trafficking people for exploitation regulations, which have been very useful. However, because the Government have failed to notify the European Commission of the transposition of the directive, when I spoke to agents of the European Commission yesterday, they felt that we were still in breach. What plans does the Minister have to complete the process?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I can say that the UK has notified the Commission of the measures taken to transpose the directive. Compliance with the EU directive is of course only one of the ways in which we can fight that terrible crime. The Government’s human trafficking strategy is clear as to how the UK will identify and support victims, work with source countries, take action at the border and better co-ordinate UK law enforcement efforts under the direction of the interdepartmental ministerial group.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says, but is it not true that having escaped rape and misuse, these people then find themselves without jobs or finance? What is the Minister doing to encourage local authorities to support those individuals, who are often alone, without any language skills or advocacy, and who cannot get back to their homeland but cannot survive in this country?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Baroness for that question. If noble Lords have the time today, they should go to the Upper Waiting Hall on the Grand Stairway to the Committee Room Corridor and visit the exhibition there, because it demonstrates how vulnerable those people are. Local authorities have a big responsibility in this regard. We have recently commissioned a review by the Children’s Society and the Refugee Council which will consider the experience of trafficked children in local authority care and try to establish good practice for local authorities. The review will report later this year.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware of this week’s Lords EU Committee report, which stated that to opt out of EU policing and justice measures would,

“weaken the ability of the United Kingdom’s police and law enforcement authorities to cooperate with … other Member States regarding cross-border crime”.

Last year, 420 requests were made to the UK for immigration and human trafficking offences under the European arrest warrant. I am genuinely puzzled. I hope that the Minister can help me, because I know that he cares about the issue. How do the Government believe that opting out would fulfil the Prime Minister’s pledge to make Britain a world leader in the fight against human trafficking?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I do not see any conflict between our policy objective of re-evaluating our relationship on a number of European matters with our strategy for human trafficking which, by definition, involves co-operation with other countries, responding to other countries’ requests and making sure that other countries work with us to tackle this problem at source. We have representatives in vulnerable countries making sure that we are well aware of the scale of these operations overseas and are doing our best to stop at source the crime of young people being picked up to be brought to this country, as we know too well they are.

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, the 54 pages of advice that the UK Border Agency provides to its staff on identifying and working with suspected victims of trafficking are admirable, but how many front-line staff have been trained face to face in the identification of potential victims?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The Government have already recognised through the 2012 interdepartmental ministerial group the need to strengthen awareness training for front-line professionals. Police, immigration personnel and prosecutors across the UK have access to e-learning packages on human trafficking. In addition, the Government recently provided funding to three organisations to develop and deliver training to professionals working in a range of environments, including social care, youth offending teams and local authority housing.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, in welcoming what the Minister said about tackling the long-term reasons for trafficking, has he read the excellent article by the right honourable Gordon Brown about the coalition that has been created to try to place more emphasis on the need for education as the way to break the cycle of disadvantage? We have only 1,000 days to go before the millennium development goals expire. Does not the Minister agree that children on the periphery, particularly trafficked children, those taken as child brides and those taken into child slavery, are incredibly vulnerable and that the way to break that cycle is by ensuring that children in many countries where they do not enjoy education do so?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I read an awful lot but I have not read that particular article. It sounds as if it is worth my attention, and I can understand the noble Lord drawing it to my attention. Yes, a lot of the battle on this issue lies in the originating countries, but it also lies here in ensuring that we detect and pick up these vulnerable individuals when they arrive, so it is a dual policy. I agree with the noble Lord that education is probably one of the most important factors.

[Lord Spicer]

My Lords, the letter to my noble friend Lord McColl states clearly that primary legislation is required. Will this be in the Queen’s Speech?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think that noble Lords know the convention, and there are only a few more days to wait.

Police: Racism

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the allegation made by the Metropolitan Black Police Association that the Metropolitan Police Service is institutionally racist.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, the Government do not believe that the Metropolitan Police Service is still institutionally racist. It has worked hard to improve relations with communities and the representativeness of its workforce since the Stephen Lawrence inquiry. The commissioner has been clear that he will not tolerate racists in the force, and has publicly stated his determination to ensure that the force looks more like the community that it serves.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

I thank the Minister for that reply. The Metropolitan Black Police Association has made very serious allegations to the effect that the Metropolitan Police is still institutionally racist, 20 years after the infamous Lawrence case. It has referred to the wholly disproportionate number of stop-and-search cases involving the black and Asian communities compared with the white. What is being done to address this alleged—I repeat “alleged”—situation?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My right honourable friend Damian Green, the Minister for Policing, recently met the National Black Police Association to discuss its concerns about race in policing and offered to work in partnership with the College of Policing because, as noble Lords will know, that new institution will be important in strategies such as this. There have been suggestions that elements in policing, as with other institutions, still sustain racist attitudes, but it is clear from the comments of the commissioner of the MPS, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, that he is determined, and he is supported by the Government in this regard, to stamp it out.

[Lord Waddington]

My Lords, does this not come close to the pot calling the kettle black? What could be more institutionally racist than insisting on having a black police association?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

For my part, I am reassured that any drivers that ensure that the police more fully reflect the communities that they serve must be a good thing, so I cannot join with my noble friend in this regard. A lot of progress has been made in increasing the number of police officers from BME backgrounds but there are still too few, and there are still too few in the higher ranks of the police force. I hope that one of the considerations of the direct entry scheme will be to ensure that some of the higher levels of the policing profession are from British minority ethnic backgrounds.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us how many senior officers of ACPO rank there are from black and minority ethnic communities as a proportion of the total? Can he also say what steps will be taken to ensure that individuals who come in by direct entry from those communities are not set up to fail because they will not have been through the normal ranks structure?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Of course, that hazard would apply to any candidate. However, I am confident about that policy and I believe it will enhance the policing profession. I have some figures here. There are 6,604 BME officers in the 43 forces in England and Wales, representing 5% of total police officer strength. The proportion of those of chief inspector rank or above is only 3.7%. I think that bears out the point that the noble Lord is making, one with which I do not disagree. There are too few at that level.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for a very helpful Answer. Does he not agree that, 20 years after Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to death and after the Macpherson report on institutional racism, it is time to look at this issue again? In particular, does he not agree that it would be right to ask HM Inspectorate of Constabulary to undertake a thematic review of race relations policies to see what progress has been made since then?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Since the Macpherson report, which was the initial report, as noble Lords will know, there have been a number of allegations. Indeed, currently there is a review investigating allegations of a conspiracy to cover up this case. We will take that review seriously. It does not alter the fundamental strategy, which is to try to make sure that police numbers and the ethnic make-up of policing reflect the communities that they serve.

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, I recently had the pleasure of spending six days out with team A of Southwark Metropolitan Police Service. During that time, we conducted a stop and search of a black man outside the Damilola Taylor Centre. Including myself, there were three representatives of the Metropolitan Police Service handling the coercive power of the state, and every single person who walked past us was from the black community in the area. When will my noble friend the Minister insist that all police services raise their levels so that they reflect the populations that they serve, give a time limit for that to take place and perhaps even make it a performance indicator?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend reinforces much of what I have been saying. In January 2012, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police initiated the “stop it” campaign as a way of trying to ensure a better balance. The police must use stop and search in a proportionate fashion, and we will consider the outcomes of that strategy. I commend my noble friend on joining in that particular exercise. I attended a dinner here with the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police the other evening for the parliamentary police programme, which is widely supported by parliamentarians—indeed, Members of this House were present. I commend that programme. Anything that makes us, in politics, more aware of the decision-making and the thoroughness with which the police do their work is worth while.

Police: Convicted Officers

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the Metropolitan Police Service regarding the arrangements for assessing the continued suitability of officers convicted of serious criminal offences.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, the Government have not had any specific discussions with the Metropolitan Police Service regarding the arrangements for assessing the continual suitability of officers convicted of serious criminal offences. The Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime is responsible for holding the commissioner to account for his decisions in this regard. My noble friend will know, and I have written to him on this matter, that I share his concern that police officers should meet the highest standards of professional behaviour.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. Although precise numbers are difficult to come by, as he says, is it not the case that there are several hundred police officers still serving in the Metropolitan Police who have been convicted of serious criminal offences but who continue to serve—including, no doubt, giving evidence on oath in other criminal cases? Is that really satisfactory?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I understand the noble Lord’s concern, particularly as it is based on those figures, but in fact those figures are not accurate. I have been able to obtain some accurate figures. In 2005, a total of 46 officers were serving in the MPS who had a criminal conviction. That went down to 25 in 2010, and in 2012 there was a further decline to a total of 15 officers serving with the MPS with a criminal conviction. Of these 15 officers, the majority of convictions, 10 of them, were for traffic offences including excess alcohol.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I kindly put it to the Minister that 45 years ago, as I know for a fact, the police regulations covered all manner of conduct, positive and negative, in relation to police officers. Is there now an equivalent covenant which relates to all police officers in England and Wales, and, if so, does it refer to criminal offences?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The Police (Conduct) Regulations 2012 set out the standards that all police officers are expected to maintain. The standard on discreditable conduct, for example, states that police officers behave in a manner that does not discredit the police or undermine public confidence in them, whether on or off duty, and that police officers report any action taken against them for a criminal offence, any conditions imposed on them by a court, or the receipt of any penalty notice.

[Baroness Doocey]

My Lords, Home Office guidance states that police forces should reject potential recruits with convictions for serious offences. However, I am not aware that there is any guidance about what forces should do if serving police officers then go on to be convicted of serious offences. Is it not about time that the Government took the lead on this and issued clear guidance to forces about the suitability of officers who have been convicted of serious offences and the fact that they should no longer be allowed to serve in the police force?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend is right about the vetting procedures. The Government are committed to improving the integrity of the police. As noble Lords will know, on 12 February, the Home Secretary announced a package of measures to improve police integrity, and yesterday, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and the police Minister Damian Green discussed police integrity with police and crime commissioners, who, as my noble friend will know, are responsible for making sure that these standards are maintained within their force areas.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, but he sounds a bit complacent about it. He is absolutely right that the integrity of the police is important not just to the public but to other serving police officers, who are dismayed that so many of their colleagues have convictions for serious offences. He says that he has had discussions; can he tell me what action will follow from them?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I have already talked about the 12 February announcement made by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The noble Baroness will know that part of our policy for improving standards within the police lies with the establishment of a College of Policing, which is leading a programme of ways to improve police integrity. It is important that the police generate these standards from within their own experience. It is not necessary for the Home Office to impose a standard on the police service. We are great believers that the integrity of the police force and the capacity for maintaining it lie within the police service itself. The figures that I have given have shown exactly that.

[Lord Dear]

Noble Lords will perhaps not be surprised when I say that I view the emerging picture of misconduct and, sometimes, criminality in police forces with great concern. There are a number of issues in this matter but one of them has to be attracting the right calibre of recruits in the first place, and then accelerating and developing leadership within the service. Can the Minister reassure the House that he, too, sees this as a fundamental priority? Can he reassure your Lordships’ House that when the results of the recently concluded consultation on leadership and fast-tracking have been evaluated in the Home Office, the Government will address this particular issue urgently and with all possible speed?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I can give the noble Lord that assurance. Earlier I referred to the vetting procedure also referred to by my noble friend Lady Doocey. The key thing is to make sure that you get the right people into the police in the first place. The vetting procedure set up by ACPO states that police forces should not recruit people with convictions, cautions and judicial or any other form of disposals which may call into question the applicant or their role in the service. It also states that each case must be judged on its individual merits; I think that the noble Lord will agree with that. Where standards have not been met, decisions about what action to take are for chief constables, based on the circumstances of each case. Other than in London, those decisions are monitored by the police and crime commissioners.

Draft Enhanced Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill: Joint Committee Report

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, I will conclude this interesting if intimate debate by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Plant, for introducing it. The way in which he did so informed the Committee of the background in a very thorough fashion. In some ways, that makes it easier for me to demonstrate the Government’s thinking on this issue. I thank all noble Lords, and all honourable Members, who participated in the Joint Committee, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Plant, and my noble friend Lady Doocey. Despite what the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, said, the Government take the scrutiny of this committee extremely seriously.

As the noble Lord, Lord Plant, described, an enhanced TPIM Bill would be introduced only in exceptional circumstances that necessitate the use of more restrictive powers than those normally available in the TPIM Act 2011. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, rather pushed me to go into more detail about what those exceptional circumstances might be. I do not think that I can genuinely do that. However, the Government will never put national security at risk. Protecting the British public will always be our top priority, and prosecution and conviction will always be the best option for dealing with terrorists.

As the noble Lord, Lord Plant, said, TPIMs were introduced following the counterterrorism powers review. They provide a better balance than control orders between controlling people who are engaged in terrorism-related activity and ensuring that if they re-engage in that activity we can collect evidence that can lead to their conviction. TPIMs assist the police and the Security Service by providing effective powers to manage the risk posed by a small number of terror suspects who pose a threat to our security but who cannot be prosecuted or, in the case of foreign nationals, deported.

TPIMs allow the Home Secretary to impose a powerful range of measures to protect the public. We have also provided substantial extra resources for the police and Security Service to help them manage the risk that such individuals pose, and to maximise the opportunities to put them on trial in open court. TPIM powers give the police and the Security Service a range of powers that, along with additional resources, will be adequate to protect the public from terrorism in all but exceptional circumstances. We made clear when legislating for TPIMs that in future exceptional circumstances may necessitate the use of more restrictive measures. This would be in the event of a very serious terrorism-related risk that the Home Secretary, on the advice of the Security Service, judges cannot be managed by any other means. We maintain that these more stringent measures should be available only in exceptional circumstances.

The example of the Olympics was raised in this debate by my noble friend Lady Doocey. That we did not introduce these powers speculatively in advance of a significant event shows our commitment to do so only in response to specific circumstances that warrant them being on the statute book. As noble Lords will know, we were commended by David Anderson, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, on the restraint shown in the run-up to the Games.

The Government agree that it is right that this legislation receives proper parliamentary scrutiny. That is why we published the draft ETPIM Bill over 18 months ago, in September 2011. We did this so that it was clear what enhanced measures would be introduced and to enable the draft Bill to receive the detailed scrutiny of both Houses through pre-legislative scrutiny. I welcome this opportunity further to debate the draft Bill today, and am grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Plant, has tabled this debate.

In his introduction, the noble Lord carefully analysed the Government’s position and whether ETPIM powers should be in the 2011 Act, and my noble friend Lady Doocey shared his concern. Perhaps I can clarify. We consider that these powers will not be routinely needed, and that the 2011 Act will provide robust powers to protect the public in almost all circumstances. We consider that the enhanced powers should be introduced only if they are needed, and should be specifically agreed by Parliament. Our view is that they should not be routinely available on the statute book. That is why we have prepared, but do not intend to introduce until needed, the ETPIM Bill. If we introduced that Bill, we would consider whether to incorporate the enhanced powers into the TPIM Act when the renewal of that Act comes before Parliament at its five-year renewal point, taking into account the circumstances at that time.

Should this legislation ever need to be introduced, the Government will seek to brief Members appropriately. This will need to be done in the context of the as yet unknown circumstances in which it would be introduced, which may well mean that only a limited number of suitably cleared people could be briefed. It would be for both Houses to decide whether those circumstances were exceptional enough to justify the introduction of these enhanced powers.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that the Home Secretary has discussed with the ISC its potential role in an emergency legislation situation and the need to assure the House. The exact most appropriate mechanism to assist Parliament will depend on the precise circumstances involved, but noble Lords will know that we have recently debated a Bill that sets out the role of the ISC clearly as a committee of Parliament.

As I have said before, I do not think that it is appropriate to prescribe the circumstances in which the Home Secretary would seek to introduce the ETPIM regime. This is draft emergency legislation to deal with a potential threat that is, by its very nature, unknown. It would be difficult and unwise to attempt an exhaustive hypothetical definition. However, situations in which the draft enhanced TPIM Bill might be introduced are if there was credible reporting pointing to a series of concurrent attack plots, all of which appeared imminent, or in the wake of a major terrorist attack where there was a potential prospect that there may be further attacks. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that an individual may pose a particular threat to national security such that it is necessary to introduce the ETPIM Bill.

The enhanced TPIM Bill makes available a range of more stringent powers that are not available under TPIMs. These include relocation to another part of the UK without consent; the requirement to be in a named residence for up to 16 hours; geographical boundaries beyond which they may travel only with permission; a total ban on access to communications equipment such as computers and mobile phones; and further restrictions on association. The noble Lord, Lord Plant, went into those in his introductory remarks. As the noble Lord identified, there are clear differences between control orders and ETPIMs, and I thank him for setting them out so clearly. They include the higher legal test, the limit on restrictions that can be imposed and the two-year limit.

The noble Lord asked how ETPIM notices would be enforced, and specifically what confidence I would have in a private contractor performing this role. Of course we hope that the ETPIM Bill never comes into force, but if we had to impose an ETPIM notice, enforcement, as with TPIMs, would be a matter for the police, and I am confident that they would not take a step that put public safety at risk. They would make a judgment that conformed to the seriousness of the situation and the national security risk involved.

The ETPIM Bill also includes some important safeguards. First, the enhanced powers will be available only if Parliament believes that they are necessary. The enhanced measures will also be subject to a higher legal test, as I said, in order to impose them. The Secretary of State must be satisfied that the person is or has been involved in terrorism-related activity on the balance of probabilities. That is a higher threshold than “reasonable belief”, which is the test for a standard TPIM notice. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Rosser that the ETPIM Bill is clear that new terrorist-related activity is that which has been committed after the imposition of an ETPIM notice. That is quite clear in the draft Bill.

The Government agree with my noble friend Lady Doocey that it is important to develop a clear exit strategy for each TPIM subject. Noble Lords will appreciate that I cannot go into detail on this work, but I confirm that there is a multiagency approach to ensure that all options are considered. We continue to believe that prosecution and conviction is the best approach to combat the risk of terrorism, and that the best place for a terrorist is in a prison cell. In addition, the police and Crown Prosecution Service continue to keep under review whether a successful prosecution could be brought against those subject to a TPIM notice. We will also continue to keep under review whether further tools are required to enable the prosecution of terrorists.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Plant, that the Government maintain the fully independent Crown Prosecution Service to apply the public interest test. It is a two-stage test, as it is in all prosecutions: first, that there is a realistic prospect of conviction based on the evidence available; and, secondly, that it is in the public interest to prosecute. To apply this test, it considers the evidence that can be put forward in an individual case, including where there may be any national security concerns. This is why the Government are conducting an extensive and detailed review to assess the benefits, costs and risks of introducing intercept as evidence. This work continues under the guidance of the cross-party group of privy counsellors and will report in due course. The former and current independent reviewers of counterterrorism legislation and my noble friend Lady Doocey have said that IAE would not remove the need for TPIMs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser]

If the Minister is about to close, is he able to address the question that I asked about what happens to those who are on TPIMs at present? I understand that at least some, if not all, TPIMs will come to an end at the beginning of next year. What is going to happen to them? I asked whether, if those people were still considered a threat to national security, the Government could seek an ETPIM in respect of them or whether they would fail to meet the criteria if they had not committed any “new” terrorist activity. I also asked whether, if someone is subject to an ETPIM, the Government envisage renewing it or extending it in any form because presumably, under their own definition, they could do so only if the individual had committed some “new” terrorist activity while under the EPTIM which, if the EPTIM was being effective, the individual would not have done.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think that I can answer the noble Lord best by saying that all cases are reviewed properly. I gave a description in response to my noble friend Lady Doocey’s question about the disengagement of subjects from a TPIM order. The future conduct of individuals who have been subject to a TPIM or an ETPIM will be subject to review regarding the nature of the threat that they present to national security. That is how this legislation works in relation to the individuals who are subject to it.

I was going on to say, about the introduction of this draft Bill and the exceptional circumstances that might lead to its presentation to Parliament, that I am sure noble Lords will say that they hope that such circumstances never arise, that this diligent work conducted by noble Lords may not be necessary and that we do not face the exceptional circumstances that would mean that the Government were forced to present the Bill to Parliament. I thank noble Lords.

[Lord Plant of Highfield]

My Lords, I will not detain colleagues for more than a minute or two, but there are one or two issues that I would like to leave in colleagues’ minds. I was grateful for the Minister’s speech. However, perhaps it is my suspicious mind but I thought that his response on private security firms was possibly a little oversubtle. I do not know whether he meant that it would still be down to each police force that was responsible for an ETPIMs controlee to decide for themselves, in the light of the national security position, whether or not they should contract out the supervision and the way of imposing the ETPIM order on an individual. Is there any prohibition on that, or is it up to each police service?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think that I made it clear that it is up to the police to make that judgment and that they would do so on the grounds of national security. There may of course be some elements of the TPIM that might well be most effectively done by a contractor and not a police force, but that is up to the police to decide. It is not for us to discuss in detail here because I do not think that that is particularly appropriate. The police are charged with implementing these orders, and they will do so in the most effective way. That is how the police carry out their duties.

[Lord Plant of Highfield]

I thank the noble Lord for that clarification. I am not sure that I am entirely reassured, but at least I now know exactly what he meant.

The Minister spoke eloquently and correctly about the role of the CPS and the police in deciding whether or not to prosecute. The response of the Government is:

“It is for the Crown Prosecution Service, in consultation with the police, to decide whether to bring a prosecution, not the Government”.

I am sure that that is constitutionally right. I am just a bit worried, though; certainly, evidence that was given to us said fairly baldly that the previous Government had abandoned two prosecutions because of the way in which the disclosure of information would affect national security. According to the evidence—and it may be wrong; I do not know—the Government had made that decision, rather than the CPS or the police acting on their own. If that is right, it is not the case, as stated in the Government’s response, that:

“It is for the Crown Prosecution Service, in consultation with the police, to decide whether to bring a prosecution, not the Government”.

We will just leave that hanging in the air unless the Minister has further information.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

All I can say is that it is obviously for the Government to decide whether it would be in the public interest to present that evidence within a prosecution. That could influence the decision of the Crown Prosecution Service on whether or not to pursue a prosecution. As noble Lords will know, we have recently passed some legislation that has perhaps made this decision slightly easier for the Government.