Licensing Act 2003
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
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Viscount Falkland
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the aims and objectives of the Licensing Act 2003 have been adequately met with regard to the control of social disorder resulting from late night drinking in residential areas.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)
My Lords, the Government have rebalanced the Licensing Act 2003 to give local communities stronger powers to achieve the Act’s objectives, including reducing crime and disorder. For example, licensing authorities can now raise a contribution from premises that supply alcohol late at night towards the costs of policing and wider action. Newcastle is scheduled to be the first area to introduce a late-night levy, as it is called, on 1 November.
Viscount Falkland (CB)
My Lords, I thank the Minister; that was a more encouraging reply than I had expected. I am glad that the scenario that he describes is likely to cover all of England. The dossiers that have been compiled on matters that concerned both Houses of Parliament in 2003 are very surprising. It was a major concern of the two Houses that there would be proper protection for residents in areas where they might find their peace damaged as a result of late-night licences. In my area the offences have been quite extraordinary. If, when I spoke during the Bill’s passage, I had thought that there would be behaviour of this kind between midnight and 3 o’clock in the morning in my area in south London, I would have been much more active about it. Is there is a way to protect older and vulnerable people from the disorder that comes from late-night drinking, particularly after people come out of venues? People who live in almshouses near me tell me that their lives have been made quite impossible.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
There may be particularly vulnerable people, of course, and old people are among them. One of the things that we have done with the existing licensing laws is to rebalance the Licensing Act so that there is a vicinity test; as long as evidence exists within a local community concerning the disruption that can be caused by late-night drinking, it is able to submit this to the licensing authorities. I can give the noble Viscount more encouragement: Milton Keynes has also voted in favour of a late-night levy, which is likely to come in next year. The Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill will also encourage the noble Viscount it is making its way through the Commons and will shortly arrive here, and will greatly empower communities in this regard.
Lord Avebury (LD)
My Lords, the Government’s alcohol strategy puts the cost of alcohol harm to the economy as a whole at £21 billion. That includes £3.5 billion for the health service, where overstressed A&E departments, for example, have to cope with an influx of people after midnight who have drunk far too much. Has my noble friend any estimate of the benefits, in terms of reduced costs, of the Government repealing the 2003 Act altogether?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
No, that calculation has not been made, but I can give my noble friend the figure for the cost to the health service: £7.3 billion for alcohol-related incidents.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, I acknowledge that the Government have made some changes. However, is the noble Lord content that the rebalancing has moved sufficiently? Many people believe that it has not. During the debates in the Commons on the Bill to which he has just referred, there have been attempts to extend the way in which licensing authorities can take into account public health issues. Given the Government’s commitment to devolution on public health issues, why will they not move on this front, in the way that the Scottish Government are now moving?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Lord has taken a great interest in this subject. I have always valued his contributions and look forward to his contribution to the debates we are likely to have on this Bill. I am sure that these arguments will be presented when we have the opportunity. Meanwhile, I am grateful for his acknowledgment of the progress that the Government have made in this difficult area.
Baroness Browning (Con)
Will my noble friend continue to liaise with the Department of Health to ensure that we reduce the number of people admitted to A&E departments who are clearly the worse for drink—often as a deliberate ploy, having had what they regard as a good night out? If we could tackle it from that end, perhaps we could help to move the culture change on even further.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Noble Lords will know that there have been a number of ideas on this issue. Chief Constable Adrian Lee from Northamptonshire suggested the idea of drunk tanks, which I had to read about to understand. This has generated some public debate; it is the sort of thing which clearly the Government will look at, because anything that can relieve the burden on hospitals must be a good thing.
Lord Condon (CB)
My Lords, I declare my usual interest. Is the Minister aware of the excellent project in Ipswich, Suffolk, that has been going on over the past year? On a voluntary basis, retailers, major supermarkets and off-licences, working with police and others, have withdrawn the sale of the strongest canned and bottled beers and lagers. On that voluntary basis, it seems to have had a beneficial effect on the quality of life for people, particularly in the centre of Ipswich, and has reduced anti-social behaviour. Does the Minister agree that this should be encouraged in other city centres?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Yes, I would certainly vouch for that. There has been a lot of co-operation from the retail trade. I met representatives of the Association of Convenience Stores at the Conservative party conference, where they had a meeting. They are very supportive of retail initiatives of this sort. This morning I met Richard Antcliff, the chief anti-social behaviour officer in Nottinghamshire, and I went to Nottingham to see the work being done in that city to reduce alcohol abuse. Communities can do an awful lot on this issue and the Home Office would encourage any such initiatives.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
My Lords, following on from the last question, does the noble Lord not agree that although there are obviously deficiencies in the way that the 2003 Act has operated, which give rise to some of these difficulties, one of the main problems is the enormously wide availability of alcohol at very low prices? Do the Government have any plans at the moment to address that?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Licensing of alcohol in retail outlets is, of course, in the hands of licensing authorities, but the pricing has been challenged—and, indeed, I have been challenged by noble Lords in this House on this issue. The Government have announced the policy on this; there will be a policy whereby drink cannot be sold at cost plus duty plus VAT, which in effect puts a floor on cheap sales of alcohol. I think that that should be encouraged.
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Guidance on the Making or Renewing of National Security Determinations) Order 2013
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That the draft order laid before the House on 10 June be approved.
Relevant document: 6th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 17 July.
Alcohol: Minimum Pricing
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Taverne
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare an interest as a trustee of the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, last week the Government published their response to the recent consultation on the alcohol strategy. This sets out our next steps for reducing alcohol-related harm. These include banning the sale of alcohol below the level of duty plus VAT and tightening up restrictions on irresponsible promotions. Minimum unit pricing will not be taken forward at present but it will remain a policy under consideration.
Lord Taverne
My Lords, alcohol has been shown to be much the most harmful of all the addictive drugs if one takes into account its social as well as its physical impact. As the latest figures show, the physical impact is becoming more serious and it seems likely that liver disease will soon overtake heart disease as the biggest killer. In 2008, the Government’s own research department showed that increasing the price of alcohol led to a steep decline in alcohol consumption and was a most effective way of dealing with it, and lots of other research confirms that. Why, then, have the Government changed their mind? They announced their intention to increase alcohol pricing and it was widely welcomed. Why do they ignore the evidence on this urgent issue when there is scientific evidence showing that action would save lives, reduce hospital admissions and reduce crime?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, the Government are not ignoring the evidence; in fact a study published recently by Sheffield University is very interesting in this subject area. That is why the Government have introduced the whole business of duty plus VAT—so that, for example, low-alcohol beer cannot be sold below 40p a can and strong lager below £1.15. This has been a long-standing problem which Governments of all types have not been prepared to deal with. This Government have a strategy now to deal with it and I hope that it has the support of the House.
Baroness Hollins
My Lords, my interest is as chair of the Board of Science at the British Medical Association. I understand that research commissioned by the Department of Health shows that this policy on its own will not have any impact. How much of an increase in price does this new policy represent? I estimate that the policy will mean a minimum shop price of 21p per unit for beer and 28p for spirits—considerably less than the 45p minimum unit price previously being considered.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I have some figures that might inform the House. In 2008—the latest figures that I have available—retailers sold 220 million litres of alcohol below cost. Six out of seven supermarkets sell alcohol below cost. That is what we are tackling with duty plus VAT. It is part of a combination of strategies to reduce alcohol and binge drinking in this country.
Lord Morris of Handsworth
My Lords, in the light of the number of substance-related deaths, will the Government consider returning to the policy of requiring cigarettes to be in plain packaging? The House will recall that this is the policy on which Mr Lynton Crosby has never lobbied the Prime Minister.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, that is a slightly different issue from alcohol but I can see the relation between the two. As for Mr Lynton Crosby, I have no doubt that Australians have been able to give lessons to all of us. I am sure that the Labour Party is taking great note of its sister party in Australia as regards how to deal with the party leadership.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
The evidence is quite clear that minimum unit pricing has two dramatic effects. First, it cuts the level of alcohol-related deaths and sharply reduces admissions to hospital, as my noble friend has said. Equally importantly, it drives drinkers steadily towards lower-strength alcohol from high-strength alcohol—which has nothing to do with the Minister’s proposal about VAT and all the rest of it. Given the latest evidence from Saskatchewan and from Sheffield University with regard to the United Kingdom, will the Prime Minister and the Cabinet readdress this issue, at a time when many thousands of English and Scottish people suffer from the effects of serious alcohol, including not least in domestic violence?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I reiterate to my noble friend that the minimum unit pricing policy remains under consideration. It has not been shelved.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am surprised by that answer. On several occasions I have asked the noble Lord from this Dispatch Box about this so that I might understand why the Government have moved from absolute certainty that they would introduce minimum alcohol pricing to equivocation and a consultation, and now seem to be moving to total rejection. Following David Cameron’s evasive answers at the weekend, the lobbyist and Prime Minister’s adviser, Lynton Crosby, has stated that he has never spoken to the Prime Minister about plain packaging for cigarettes. Can the Minister give us the same assurance about minimum alcohol pricing? Do the Government consider that Mr Crosby should now declare all his lobbying clients?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Baroness has been in government and I am sure that she knows the procedures and the way in which Ministers behave in relation to advisers. I give that assurance in the knowledge that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will vouch for that himself.
EU: Police and Criminal Justice Measures
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, I am sorry about the noble Baroness’s unwillingness to support the Government on this Motion. If people say that there is no passion or conviction in British politics, they should have been listening to this debate, because it has shown that there is indeed a lot of passion and conviction on this issue.
Before I address the points that have been made during the debate, I join my noble friend Lord McNally in thanking the noble Lords, Lord Boswell, Lord Hannay and Lord Bowness, for their chairmanship of the committee, which produced a formidable body of work for the Government to consider, and its ongoing role in scrutinising this matter. The Government are appreciative of the committee’s high-quality and thoughtful report, which has been integral to the decision-making process behind our decision to table the Motion this evening. I look forward to working with the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, as chairman of Sub-Committee E.
The Government have today replied. Noble Lords have said that it is plenty late enough, but we have replied to the committee’s report on the matter. Copies of the reply are available and I am sure that a number of noble Lords have taken the opportunity to look at it. We would like noble Lords to consider it alongside the letter of 18 July, sent to the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, which can be found in the Library of the House.
To return to today’s business, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and to my noble friend Lord Bowness for meeting me yesterday. It was incredibly helpful to me personally, and the amended Motion that we have tabled reflects the outcome of these discussions. I hope that the whole House can support the government Motion. I would regret it if that were not the case.
On 9 July, the Home Secretary reaffirmed the Government’s intention to exercise the opt-out. Noble Lords will be aware of the background to the opt-out and there is no need to remind them of its origins. However, as I listened to the speeches from the Benches opposite, I wondered why, when they were in office, they negotiated the opt-out. They must have believed in it once, so what has happened to that belief? As my noble friend Lord Hodgson asked, why did they take such care to ensure that the Lisbon treaty contained this protocol, the provisions of which we now seek to exercise?
In the other place on 15 July, there was a debate on this issue and a vote to exercise the opt-out and rejoin the measures where it is in the national interest to do so. I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Sharkey, Lord Bowness, Lord Eccles and Lord Hodgson—and many other noble Lords—who said that they find the 35 measures that the Government seek to rejoin sensible. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, also agreed that these were sensible measures for the Government to seek to rejoin.
I must reassure my noble friend Lord Blackwell that the Government have made a considered judgment on this issue. They are confident that, in using the test of the national interest, they have properly identified those 35 measures that they will seek to rejoin. These 35 measures listed in the Command Paper represent government policy. My noble friend and I will have to agree to differ about whether we are right to seek to rejoin those 35 measures.
It might help noble Lords if I explain what happens next. On that point, I must return to the question of scrutiny and the work of the European Union Committee. I think that all noble Lords accept that the European Union can play an important role in tackling cross-border crime. This Government understand that, but equally we understand that decisions taken at EU level, or about the EU’s role in dealing with crime, must be subject to rigorous scrutiny. That is only correct and the UK Parliament must be sovereign in exercising this scrutiny.
Scrutiny can be an iterative and long-running process, especially on a matter such as this. That is why today’s Motion from the Government invites the European Union Committee to give a further view on what measures it believes we should rejoin. I hope that Command Paper 8671, which sets out those measures that the Government believe are in the national interest to rejoin, provides a useful starting point. I hope sincerely that the House can endorse that list today, but let me be clear that any endorsement cannot pre-empt the work of either the committee here or the committees in the other place in looking at all the measures. I expect that that is the point at which the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, can apply his scrutineering endeavours, since he went through various measures on which he had comments to make. I expect our committee in this House to come back with a thorough examination of the Government’s decision and I look forward to receiving it.
However, I have to ask the House to note that the Government have committed to not beginning formal discussions with the EU institutions or other member states until November. That is to ensure that the committee in this House and the relevant committees in the other place have time to report. All the reports will be carefully considered by the Government. Further to that, noble Lords will know that there are methods whereby committee reports can be brought before the House for debate. I hope that those will be promptly exercised in this instance as I look forward to a prompt debate on our committee’s report.
Lord Bowness
My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend, but while he is talking about process and procedure can he perhaps explain to me, if to no one else, the following? In the debate in the other place, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary said that the mandate that she was seeking that evening would lead to the UK exercising the opt-out. Precisely when is it envisaged that we will give formal notice to the Council of our intention? Is it to be after we have passed, if we do, the Motion tonight or will it be after there has been consideration of the reports by the relevant committees?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The Government do not have to give formal notification until 31 May, but the votes in this House and in another place provide authority for the Government to commence negotiations with the European institutions, which is why this debate is important. It provides an opportunity for those informal negotiations that will lead, post November, to formal negotiations with the European institutions. Perhaps I may turn—
Lord Richard
I am much obliged to the Minister. He says that this vote tonight is necessary so that negotiations can begin. Why is it that the House of Commons was not asked to endorse the Government’s view that the 35 measures were in the national interest, whereas in this House we have been asked to endorse that? Why is there that difference between the Motions that have been put to the two Houses?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Noble Lords conduct their own business in this House and I think that the Motions—
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
We have presented to noble Lords the Motion that we believe reflects the position of this House.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I will give way to the noble Lord, but I want to make this point absolutely clear. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, is plucking at straws. Let us get to the substance of this. There is a Motion before the House this evening that gives Members of the House an opportunity to express an opinion on both the opt-out and the rejoining of 35 measures. That is quite clear and it was the purpose of tabling this Motion. It is up to noble Lords to decide how they react to it, but there is nothing devious or obscure in the way in which the Motion has been derived.
Lord Richard
With great respect, I am not clutching at any straws at all. Having been drawn into a conversation with the noble Lord, I think that I am entitled to put this point to him. It is a question not of clutching at straws but of asking a very simple question of the Government. Why have they asked this House to endorse their proposals when they did not ask the House of Commons to endorse them? Why is there a difference between the Motions put to the two Houses?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I can give no other answer and I will give no other, because I have given the noble Lord an answer.
I should like to get to the substance of this debate. We can talk around it, but we should get to the substance. I was challenged by my noble friend Lord Maclennan and by the noble Lords, Lord Tomlinson and Lord Grenfell.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I want to get clarification on something that he said before he started the exchange with the noble Lord, Lord Richard. He said that the Motion before the House tonight, which endorses the Government’s list of 35 measures in the Command Paper, would be the basis on which the Government would start informal consultations with our partners. Can he confirm that that is true?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Exactly. There will be informal negotiations to start with because, until the reports from the sub-committee are produced in November, the Government do not intend to open up formal negotiations. The noble Lord is exactly right and I am grateful. I should have given way to him earlier. It was a very helpful intervention on his part.
I was going on to say that the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, challenged my noble friend Lord McNally on the whole business of the referendum. The noble Lords, Lord Tomlinson and Lord Grenfell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, repeated this. There is a very clear answer and I will read it. The European Union Act sets clear criteria for when a referendum would be necessary. These are set out in Section 6 of the Act. This decision is not one of the areas where a referendum is required. Changes to the Treaty on European Union, the TEU, or the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the TFEU, or a decision made under Article 48(6) of the TEU potentially attract a referendum under the European Union Act 2011. The 2014 decision is not a treaty change, nor a decision under Article 48(6) of the TEU. Instead, it is something that flows from the existing treaty and, as such, it is not subject to a referendum. I hope that that categorical assurance reassures the House on this issue.
There have been some discussions about whether we are right to exercise the opt-out. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, raised doubts early on in the debate about whether this was a wise decision. My noble friend Lord Taverne questioned whether we were doing the right thing and a number of noble Lords have also done so. The Government are of the view that we should exercise the opt-out for three reasons: principle, policy and pragmatism. On principle, it is our view that the UK’s international relations in the field of police and criminal justice are a matter, first and foremost, for the Government. For example, the Government believe that, if necessary, we should have the option to amend our bilateral UK-US extradition and mutual legal assistance treaties as we and the US wish. However, currently any changes would need to be in conformity with the EU-US agreements.
In terms of policy, the UK has and will continue to have the ability to choose whether it should opt in to any new proposal in the field of justice and home affairs. It is therefore only right that we take the opportunity to consider on a case-by-case basis whether we wish to retain the pre-Lisbon measures and allow the CJEU to exercise jurisdiction over them. The key question that the Government have asked themselves in this regard is whether it is in the national interest to rejoin a particular measure.
Finally, we are being pragmatic. We are not going to be in a position to implement Prüm, for example, which requires member states to allow reciprocal searching of their databases for DNA profiles, vehicle registration and fingerprints, before December 2014. Implementation is likely to take years and require substantial funding. By choosing to remain bound by Prüm after 1 December 2014, we run the very serious risk of being infracted for failing to meet our obligations under the EU. The Home Secretary and Justice Secretary set all this out in a letter last Thursday. Others can disagree with it, but the case has been made and that is the Government’s position.
There is some concern, which has been stressed again by noble Lords, about why we are having this vote today. I think the nub of the question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, was, “Why do we need a vote today?”. We need, as I have said, to begin these informal discussions but we need also to allow some time for scrutiny of the measures and the decisions as they go along. The EU Committee has suggested in its report that the Government should have started negotiations at a much earlier stage. However, the Government would have been presumptive to have done so without allowing Parliament to have a say on the matter. The Commission DG for Justice, Françoise Le Bail, has said:
“But I guess the key issue is to have a decision by the British Government. There is nothing else we can do before that”.
That is why we have asked for this vote today. In effect, from this moment, we will be able to enter into those informal negotiations.
A lot of anxieties have been expressed, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, repeated the point about the risk of a gap between our opting out and our rejoining. Noble Lords will of course understand that there will be a transitional arrangement. The timetable is that the actual opt-out does not occur until 1 December 2014, so there is a period for negotiations, which we believe will include transitional arrangements. We do not see a gap as being a serious obstacle for us in presenting to our European colleagues a proper case for renegotiation in respect of those bodies that we want to opt in to. Indeed, all the discussions that we have had with colleagues in Europe have given us the feeling that we can be confident that they will be pleased that we have actually made a decision on this matter and that we will be in a positive position in respect of the 35 measures to which we will be opting in.
Lord Blackwell
Can my noble friend give me one more assurance? Can he confirm that, once the British Government have concluded their negotiations and we know what the conditions will be for opting back in to, for example, the European arrest warrant, Parliament will then have an opportunity for a final say on whether or not it agrees with those opt-ins?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Yes, that is indeed provided for. After 31 May, not only will impact assessments be generated for each of the measures to which we are opting back in but there will be a second vote on the 2014 opt-ins. This is a journey which Parliament and Government have to undertake together. I understand the passions of noble Lords on this issue but I hope that we can establish, on the terms of the debate that we have had this evening, a proper dialogue so that we can actually discuss these issues and give those people who disagree with the Government a proper sense that they have an opportunity for dialogue with us.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
The noble Lord has just said something a little startling. He assured the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, that the second debate and vote will take place after 31 May—that is, after the date that we have to give a legal notice to the European Union that we are opting out. I do not quite see how a vote after that date can vary that decision in any way.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
There will be a second vote on the whole package after 31 May.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
There will be a deadline of 31 May. The Government will make the decision but it will be up to Parliament to endorse it in a vote after 31 May. This is a matter where the Government and Parliament will be in constant dialogue. As I have said, there will be a debate in this House, I hope, in November. I hope that noble Lords will be furnished with arguments by the committee of this House that will enable us to discuss this issue properly at that time.
This has been a good debate. This Government are not frightened of criticism and are prepared to seek to answer it. The choice before us is whether we exercise the opt-out and rejoin measures, where it is in the national interest to do so, or we do nothing. I am firmly of the view that we should opt out, but it is most certainly in the national interest to seek to rejoin measures that help to combat cross-border crime and keep our country safe. I hope that the House will also endorse the measures in Command Paper 8671 and strengthen the Government’s negotiating hand. I know that the European Union Committee can further help the Government and this House by further scrutinising the measures that it feels the Government should rejoin. This can only enhance the debate. I am very pleased that the terms of today’s Motion have encouraged the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, not to press his amendment. I hope that I have also shown that the Government are prepared to listen to these concerns.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am sorry; I am not going to give way. I have some important information for the House. The brief I had that said that the vote would be after 31 May was incorrect. It has now been corrected. The vote will be before 31 May, which I am sure reassures noble Lords. It certainly makes my life a little easier, if I may say so.
I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me. It is late and I am coming to the end of my remarks. There will be another vote before we formally apply to rejoin these measures. Today is not the end of the process but just a step along the road. I hope that noble Lords will support the position set out by the Government. It gives us a chance to be involved in a continuing discussion on this issue. I commend the Motion in the name of my noble friend to the House.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I confirm what I said at the end of my intervention—that I do not propose to divide the House on the amendment in my name on the Order Paper.
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Code of Practice for Surveillance Camera Systems and Specification of Relevant Authorities) Order 2013
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Code of Practice for Surveillance Camera Systems and Specification of Relevant Authorities) Order 2013.
Relevant documents: 4th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 6th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Code of Practice for Surveillance Camera Systems and Specification of Relevant Authorities) Order 2013 and the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Guidance on the Making or Renewing of National Security Determinations) Order 2013, along with copies of the attendant surveillance camera code of practice, which I will refer to as the code, and the guidance on the making or renewing of national security determinations, which I will refer to as the guidance, were laid before Parliament on 4 June and 24 June respectively. Both orders are made under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. This Act delivers important changes to the law, ensuring that we strike the right balance between respecting the rights of individuals and protecting the public, which reflects a key commitment of this Government. I will explain each order in turn.
The first order, on the surveillance camera code of practice, follows on from Section 30 of the 2012 Act and reflects a coalition agreement commitment to the further regulation of CCTV. The Government support the use of CCTV, automatic number plate recognition—ANPR—systems and other surveillance camera systems to cut crime and protect the public. In general terms, the public support their use. However, that support is conditional on these cameras being used proportionately to meet a legitimate aim and being used effectively in meeting their intended purpose. For too long we have seen the use of CCTV and the advance of technology develop without a proper regulatory framework, with ever greater potential for surveillance and ever greater potential to interfere with citizens’ rights and freedoms.
This code seeks to reassure the public about the use of surveillance camera systems and applies to England and Wales. Section 34 requires the appointment of a Surveillance Camera Commissioner, whose role is to encourage compliance with the code, review its operation and provide advice about it. Noble Lords may be aware that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has considered this draft order, and the draft code, and has drawn the special attention of the House to these documents on the basis that they may imperfectly achieve policy objectives. My belief is that bringing the code into force will be a critical step in our incremental and measured approach to regulation.
We have worked closely with our partners including the police, local authorities, the Information Commissioner, the Chief Surveillance Commissioner and the Surveillance Camera Commissioner in developing this code. The code is based on 12 guiding principles which are applicable to any overt operation of CCTV in public places. Those who work to these guiding principles will be better placed to reassure the public about their intentions and to share images and information of evidential value with the police and the criminal justice system to help investigate crime and bring criminals to justice. The commissioner will provide additional information which complements the guiding principles and helps system operators turn them into reality.
We have always been clear that our approach to further regulation in this area is to be incremental and measured, starting with state surveillance and getting the basics right, then taking further steps as necessary, informed by advice from the Surveillance Camera Commissioner. This order also exercises powers under Section 33(5)(k) and seeks to add the three non-territorial police forces—the British Transport Police, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the Ministry of Defence Police—and the Serious Organised Crime Agency to the list of relevant authorities which will be placed under a duty to have regard to the code from the outset. Each has been consulted over the proposal and each has consented to it. Our intention in expanding the list to additional forces is to provide further assurance to the public that overt surveillance by the state is being effectively and transparently regulated.
I turn to the second order before the Committee today, which brings into force the guidance on the making or renewing of national security determinations as provided for by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. This order implements an important element of the Government’s commitment, set out in the coalition’s programme for government, to restore balance between the protection of individuals’ rights and protecting the public in respect of police retention of DNA and fingerprints.
We propose to commence the substantive powers in the 2012 Act from October this year. This will mark an important change. From this point, with the exception of convicted individuals, DNA and fingerprint material will not be held indefinitely. This guidance deals with a limited exception whereby it may be necessary to extend retention for the purposes of national security. We want to ensure that, in exercising their powers to extend retention by the making of a national security determination, chief officers and chief constables are doing so in an open, transparent and consistent way. This guidance seeks to achieve that. The guidance is introduced pursuant to Section 22 of the 2012 Act and is applicable throughout the United Kingdom. It sets out the basic principles underpinning the new powers, specific requirements governing consideration of necessity and proportionality and clear processes for making or renewing a national security determination, including appropriate direction as to the responsibilities of chief officers or chief constables.
The Act establishes for the first time a comprehensive regime for the retention, destruction and use of biometric material held for national security purposes. This regime is to be independently overseen by the new commissioner for the retention and use of biometric material—the Biometrics Commissioner, Mr Alastair MacGregor QC. The retention of biometric data by the state is a justifiable interference with the right under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights where it is necessary and proportionate to do so and where it is in accordance with clearly defined law. The Act’s provisions, coupled with the guidance and the robust independent oversight we rightly and confidently expect from the Biometrics Commissioner, in my view achieves this objective.
We consulted extensively over the preparation of the code and the guidance which are before your Lordships for consideration today. The code and the guidance were published in draft form on 7 February and 26 March respectively for public consultation. There was broad support for these changes. A summary of the consultation responses and resultant changes made for each have been published on the Home Office’s website.
These orders are intended to build and maintain public confidence in both overt surveillance camera activity in public places and in the retention, destruction and use of DNA and fingerprint material held for national security purposes now and in the future. I commend them to the Grand Committee.
The Earl of Erroll
My Lords, I will say a few words because this is an area in which I take an interest. In principle, I have no trouble with using surveillance cameras around the place to find out what happened after an event and, in some cases, to anticipate what might happen. The only thing that has ever worried me is when things are linked together to try to surveil and track a population around. From that point of view, ANPR cameras could be used for purposes other than traffic management and could start to be used for tracking people. A lot of that stuff involves data protection, so all this looks fairly innocuous.
The main thing that I am worried about is whether it really does anything. At the end of it all, these are all good words. Are we just adding more cost and stuff than can be more effectively used elsewhere? It looks like we have just invented a couple of extra posts, which will be very nice for someone; it will do a bit more box-ticking so everyone will think that it has all been covered. However, if it starts being really effective, it will interrupt other people’s jobs where they do need cameras, and make them more difficult.
So I am giving a few words of caution: let us not waste public money on something that is merely a cosmetic exercise. At the same time, many of the issues that do matter in this are covered by the Data Protection Act, for instance accurate databases and things like that. So they are already covered elsewhere. Will having an extra commissioner really make a difference? It is obvious that I am sceptical about it. It does not really address the big problem about the surveillance state and things like that, but we do not have that yet, thank goodness.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, for his contribution and for that of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. It is the first time that we have had the chance to debate these issues, and some of the questions that she asks me arise because we have not had a chance to discuss these matters before. I am pleased to be able to seek to answer her uncertainty about these measures.
I have to say to the noble Earl that this is not a cosmetic measure; it is not designed as a patch, to cover something up. The recent report of the British Security Industry Association made it clear that there are a very large number of cameras in this country, and these measures will apply to just 2% of the cameras in place, because the vast majority are in commercial premises or private situations.
One feature of the current surveillance apparatus that we have in this country, which is extensive, is the relatively random way in which it has developed and the lack of quality assurance that exists within it. The whole focus of this code—and Andrew Rennison and I had a meeting today about his work in overseeing it—is going to be on improving the effectiveness of surveillance. An awful lot of cameras can take an image which is then of little or no evidential value because the camera systems have been installed to improve public confidence but do not necessarily provide images which can be used in the fight against crime. This is one of the purposes of the code of practice and the appointment of the Surveillance Camera Commissioner.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord and am grateful to him for giving way. However, he said that I asked about the cost of the commissioner. I did not do so as I referred to that matter in my comments. What I was asking about were the powers of the commissioner and how they could be enforced, not the cost.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The powers are clearly laid out in the instrument which places those bodies identified under a statutory obligation to comply with the code. That is what the statutory instrument is about. Those are the powers of the commissioner and his power is, of course, to see that the code is enforced by those public authorities so affected.
As I say, the Home Office will take an early and visible lead in the voluntary adoption of the code and, along with the Surveillance Camera Commissioner, will show how working with the 12 guiding principles can help build and maintain public confidence. Along with the Surveillance Camera Commissioner, we will be raising awareness of the code and its guiding principles. There will be practical advice on how to apply those principles so that where CCTV is needed it is effective in meeting its purpose. Maintaining public confidence is in itself an incentive for voluntary adoption. Not to adopt the code will be to risk reputational damage by appearing to be unwilling to engage with the public or to follow good practice.
The number of cameras is not really the issue. The BSIA’s recent report was clear that the issue is whether the cameras have the ability to meet their purpose and adhere to legal requirements.
The additional costs—the noble Baroness may care to take notice of this—incurred by a local authority are estimated to be on average £2,000 a year, and on average £23,000 for a police force. These are modest costs and are expected to bring the benefits of better quality images and help in investigating crime and bringing criminals to justice and greater public confidence. Placing a monetary value on these benefits cannot be done easily, as I think that the noble Baroness accepted, and yet they are important.
The Surveillance Camera Commissioner plans to generate a self-assessment test, which will be a speedy and efficient mechanism for an organisation—or a business in the case of voluntary adoption of the code—to assess whether it is complying with the code. This will be faster than digesting the code in its entirety and will help to demystify the principles in the code and any technical terminology used. There is no mandatory requirement to replace an existing system but organisations will be encouraged to work to approved operational and occupational standards. This can be done by better use of the existing resources. So I have focused once again on the effectiveness of the systems in delivering what is needed.
CCTV and ANPR are used in a variety of settings for a variety of purposes. Therefore, if some of the definitions are vague and general rather than specific, that is because the code does not contain a detailed, prescriptive and one-size-fits-all guidance which defines every circumstance. Some may regard it as vague but it is a matter for operators to assess necessity and proportionality when using CCTV and ANPR, and to then test their judgment with the public and their partners. This code and the Surveillance Camera Commissioner will provide a framework within which they can exercise their discretion to do so.
The commissioner will provide advice on approved operational, technical and competency standards. He is already meeting with relevant certified accreditation bodies to explore a formal certification scheme for CCTV. In addition, he is developing a self-assessment template, as I have said, to help system operators to assess compliance and to follow the code.
The noble Baroness asked about SOCA. Currently, of course, when Ministers say SOCA they mean the National Crime Agency, which will be its successor. I can demonstrate to her how public authorities have viewed the establishment of the CCTV and surveillance commissioner and his role by the response of authorities such as SOCA and, for that matter, the non-territorial police forces which have been pleased to sign up to this code. They can see the huge advantages of being part of a group of law enforcement agencies that receive the support and technical assistance of the commissioner and the reassurance that the commissioner’s appointment offers.
The noble Baroness also asked about the mechanism for enforcing compliance with the code. Perhaps I may explain. Local authorities and the police will be under a duty to have regard to the code when exercising their functions. The SI will place a statutory duty on them. When a local authority or police force fails to do so, it will be vulnerable to judicial review for a breach of that statutory duty. The possibility of being subject to such a legal challenge will incentivise local authorities and the police to adhere to that statutory duty.
Before I go on, I shall talk about DNA and the noble Baroness’s comments in that area. This is complex legislation, as she will appreciate, and considerable work has been carried out to date to prepare the relevant systems and to consult law enforcement authorities. Having made the policy decision, we undertook a full public consultation and carefully considered the responses before we brought this guidance forward. I am satisfied that it is in time and is specifically designed to address the concerns that the noble Baroness raised.
The noble Baroness particularly asked about the current legislative framework against which decisions have been made. The current legislative regime whereby material is held by the police and other law enforcement authorities is still in effect. There have been no applications to extend the retention period on national security grounds and no material has been destroyed as a result of not extending the time period on those grounds. There have been no applications, but the framework has not ceased to exist.
I am sure that the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, will be pleased to hear that under guiding principles one and two we are clear that the use of CCTV or ANPR must be in pursuit of a legitimate aim and meet a pressing need and must take account of privacy, which, as I have tried to emphasise, is the countervailing balance that this code is designed to reconcile. These first principles establish the need for surveillance and reassure the public that it is necessary.
The Government’s intention is to give communities confidence that camera systems are used to meet a legitimate aim, that they are necessary and proportionate —words which noble Lords will fully understand—and that they are used effectively to meet a stated purpose. The vast majority of systems are operated privately. However, local authorities and the police are key organisations in ensuring the safety and security of our public places—which is where the code is initially focused—and therefore have a significant interest in the use of CCTV. That is why the starting point of our journey of incremental and measured regulation is to place them under a duty to have regard to the code. CCTV is used in a wide variety of settings for a wide variety of purposes. Therefore, the code does not contain detailed, prescriptive, one-size-fits-all guidance which attempts to define every circumstance. Some may regard this as vague, but it is for operators to assess necessity and proportionality when using CCTV and then to test their judgment with the public and partners. This code will help them do so.
In this complex and challenging arena we have always been clear that our approach to regulation will be incremental and measured. Andrew Rennison characterised this as taking small but practical steps, and I am sure that that is a strategy that the noble Baroness will endorse. We are taking action to reassure the public and as a driver of public standards. We in government remain committed to ensuring that, where the powers which these orders seek are granted, they are necessary, proportionate and transparent and, crucially, that their use goes hand in hand with respect for our long-held individual rights and freedoms. Both the orders before the Committee today go to the very heart of that matter, and I commend them to the Committee.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister, who has sought to address the points that I have made. However, I am not convinced that he has addressed them all. I am still unclear on the point, which he did not answer, on the enforcement or monitoring powers of the Surveillance Camera Commissioner. He said that it was a statutory duty on local authorities or the police, so the fear of judicial review would ensure that they carry this out. My experience of local authorities is that the fears of the cost of judicial review often lead them not to take an action that they would otherwise take. My fear would be that the costs of a judicial review—and there are 12 principles under which they could be judicially reviewed—could lead a number of local authorities to say that they will just not bother with this because it is too much effort.
I am disappointed that the Minister described what I think are genuine concerns as hyperbole. The place to question such issues is your Lordships' House; that is our role, as well as scrutiny. I am sorry that the Minister was unhappy with that position.
On the final order, the Minister said that there have been no applications to destroy biometric information, and none had been destroyed. Can I take it that that means that there have been none over three years old? Those are a couple of points that were not raised. I shall take this back and read the Hansard to see from what has been said whether my points have been addressed.
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Guidance on the Making or Renewing of National Security Determinations) Order 2013
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Guidance on the Making or Renewing of National Security Determinations) Order 2013.
Relevant document: 6th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Alcohol: Minimum Pricing
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Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will publish their response to their consultation on the introduction of a minimum unit price for alcohol.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, the public consultation on the Government’s alcohol strategy closed on 6 February. We will publish our response in due course.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
I am grateful for small mercies. Will the Minister confirm that the principal problem leading to more than 10 million people drinking excessively is the easy availability of cheap alcohol? Will he also confirm that that is still the central plank of the Government’s policy in their alcohol strategy? Secondly, when are we likely to start to see some progress on this issue, and will the Government please embrace it with the kind of enthusiasm which the previous Labour Government did when they were tackling the difficult issue of the tobacco industry and smoking? Until we take on the drink industry and some of the vested interests we will not start to see the problem resolved in the way that we need it, given the issues that arise for the health service from excessive drinking.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Lord rightly focuses on the elements of the Government’s alcohol strategy that were put out to consultation. I have explained that a response to that consultation will be delivered in due course. Availability is one of many factors but to suggest that this Government have not been tackling the problem underestimates what has been achieved. The late-night levy has been introduced. The early morning alcohol restriction order, which was created under the previous Government but not commenced, has been commenced by us and we have sought to rebalance the licensing arrangements so that the ability of individuals in the vicinity to object to licences is now greatly strengthened. I totally accept what the noble Lord has said and indeed the Government’s strategy will demonstrate that.
Baroness Hollins
Canada has introduced and evaluated a minimum unit price for alcohol. By introducing a 10% increase in the minimum unit price for some drinks there has been a decrease of 33% in wholly alcohol-related deaths. Given this evidence, when will the Government commit to including a minimum unit price as part of their alcohol strategy?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
This is just the sort of evidence being evaluated by the Government. I accept that we also have the Scottish experience whereby the Scottish Parliament has passed legislation on this issue. That is subject to a court appeal but we are taking note of what is going on elsewhere.
Lord Avebury
My Lords, I am sure that the Government have looked at the evidence produced by the Institute of Alcohol Studies which shows that a 50p minimum unit price would reduce deaths per year by 3,000, hospital admissions by 98,000 and crime incidents by 40,000. Have the Government made any estimate of the savings to the public purse that that reduction would produce?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The cost of alcohol to society is estimated at £21 billion, £11 billion of which is due to alcohol-related crime. These figures are part and parcel of the consideration the Government are giving to the issue.
Lord Turnberg
My Lords, there is a clear relationship between the price of alcohol and severe liver disease—we have known about that for ever—and the number of hospital admissions and deaths from liver disease are closely related to the price of alcohol. The Government can talk about it for a long time, but when will we see some action?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, the figure of 1.2 million admissions to hospital in 2011-12 in England speaks for itself.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I think noble Lords are well aware how long “due course” may be.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, for all the talk of consultation, the consultation on the alcohol strategy specifically ruled out consulting on minimum alcohol pricing. It said that the Government were committed to introducing a minimum unit price, but added:
“However, in other areas, this consultation seeks views”.
The Home Secretary said:
“We will … introduce a minimum unit price for alcohol”.
What has changed the Government’s mind? Has private lobbying forced this U-turn?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I can certainly counter that allegation. The response will be a comprehensive review of alcohol and the way in which we tackle alcohol abuse in this country, and it will be available in due course.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
When do the Government plan to start to pilot sobriety schemes as a way of reducing reoffending rates among those whose crimes have been alcohol-fuelled?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
That is an interesting suggestion. I have no information on it but will certainly take it up.
Lord Glentoran
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the previous Government had at least 10 years in which to react to this and that the price of alcohol and alcohol pricing will do nothing other than probably damage the Government’s income? It will do nothing to achieve what we need to achieve—that, surely, is about getting in among communities.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I certainly agree with my noble friend that the price of alcohol is not the only issue at stake. Lots of local communities are taking positive action in this area. I have been to see the night-time economy in the centre of Nottingham. Street ambassadors, taxi marshals and street pastors have helped to make that area of Nottingham safe at night, which has done a lot to improve the economy of the area. There is a big role for community: it is not just a matter of the price of alcohol.
Lord Rea
My Lords, further to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, about the Canadian experience, does the Minister agree that it has reduced sales and off-sales at supermarkets and the like—the very places to which binge drinkers go to “tank up” before a night out?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The information that the noble Baroness gave was helpful and I am grateful for it.
Visas: Foreign Domestic Workers
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Hylton
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the impact on the well-being of foreign domestic workers of the introduction in April 2012 of the one-employer visa regime.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, the reforms to the route for overseas domestic workers restored the original purpose of the route as a way to accompany an overseas employer visiting the UK, and included measures to minimise the risk of ill treatment. All overseas domestic workers receive written information about their employment rights. The Government have seen no persuasive evidence of any deterioration in the treatment of overseas domestic workers since the April 2012 reforms.
Lord Hylton
My Lords, the Minister is responsible for safeguarding vulnerable people. Will he therefore personally investigate why, in 24 out of 29 cases, such workers were paid no wage at all, while not being allowed out unescorted, having their passports taken away from them and not even having a room to themselves? Will the Government accept that their safeguards often prove ineffective, since domestics are too frightened to go to the police or employment tribunals? Is it not time to prevent such domestic slavery happening?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I understand the noble Lord’s concern and thank him for asking this Question. The Government are aware of the report from Kalayaan, and my honourable friend Mark Harper, Minister for Immigration, has agreed to meet Kalayaan the Tuesday after next. I have been invited to join that meeting. I understand that the report was based on the 29 individuals on the new visa who sought Kalayaan’s advice in 2012. I have to say that this contrasts with the 156 who went to Kalayaan under the old regime last year and the 300 it would normally get in the preceding years. In turn, that compares with the 15,000 to 16,000 domestic visas issued annually—a figure that has not in fact varied since this new procedure was put in place.
Baroness Cox
Is the Minister aware that the new visa system, which ties migrant domestic workers to one employer, removes all their protections and deprives them of any resort in terms of challenging, appalling conditions of employment and abuse, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, said, is in effect a form of modern-day slavery? How will Her Majesty’s Government ensure that such trafficked domestic workers will receive legal representation if they need it, given that, as their visas are limited to six months under proposed legal reforms, they would not pass the residency test of at least one year’s residence in the UK?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I understand the noble Baroness’s concerns, and indeed this is one of the issues that the Minister for Immigration is considering. However, perhaps I may put into perspective what the April 2012 reforms require. The control of the scheme is itself one of the protections in place. Previously there was a five-year period, and a six-month period obviously enables us to discipline that particular application so much better. We require evidence of an existing employer-employee relationship and 12 months of overseas employment before the visa application can be made. We also require that written terms of condition of employment accompany that visa application and are produced with it. Employees are still entitled to the protections in UK employment law, and they are provided with a letter in a number of languages setting out their rights under the law.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, nobody wants to see the visa system abused. However, I am confident that the Government do not think it is right that anybody working in this country should be made more vulnerable to slavery or physical, sexual or mental abuse, with effectively no power to take action to protect themselves, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. Will the noble Lord consider, in the meeting that he will shortly have with Mark Harper MP, what action the Government will take to ensure that those who are responsible for such crimes will be brought to justice, and not allowed to get away with it by deporting the evidence?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Indeed, anybody who violates the trafficking laws in this country is subject to the full force of the criminal law. Given that individuals have already worked for their employer for 12 months overseas, it is reasonable to assume that there is a normal employer-employee relationship between those individuals.
Lord Tebbit
It is my understanding that there is a great deal of abuse of such people, most often Filipinos, by the embassies of certain nations which we need not mention. What can my noble friend do about that? Embassies claim diplomatic immunity, and they abuse those people, Filipinos in particular, who then essentially escape from the embassies and become illegal immigrants here. What can we do to help them?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
We are bound by the Vienna convention in terms of the employment of staff at embassies, so the extension of British employment law in that regard is not possible. I think that this Question focuses, legitimately, on those who come here under the new six-month visitor domestic service agreements, which is a different arrangement.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I declare an interest as co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Human Trafficking. One of the great problems is that if these women who have been trafficked—and I suspect that there is a substantial minority about whom we do not know—cannot get another job, they will be sent home and may be re-trafficked. The Government need to recognise that this is a real problem.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I have tried to make it clear that these people are not casually trafficked. They must be in the employment of the employer for 12 months before they come to this country. It is designed for people accompanying overseas visitors, who I think this country seeks to encourage. However, I do not think that the scenario that the noble and learned Baroness points out actually exists. There is the national referral mechanism. Any information on trafficking represents a criminal offence, and we would not hesitate to prosecute.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, will the Minister undertake at his meeting next week to reconsider his statement that there is security in knowing that people have been in employment for 12 months? The conditions in which they may have been in employment in some other countries may be equally bad.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I give that undertaking, and course I am aware of what the noble Baroness is suggesting. However, this country’s power to deal with such matters is limited to their treatment here in the UK.
Immigration and Security
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, sat down rather promptly, so I apologise for not having my speech quite to hand. I wondered when he was going to stop flinging around data which I scarcely recognise from my experience as a Home Office Minister—some of them are open to challenge. I would rather concentrate on the theme of the debate, which has been useful because it has shown the background against which all immigration policy has to be conducted.
I thank my noble friend Lord Marlesford for tabling the debate. The relationship between effective immigration controls and the interests of national security is a key focus for the Government. Securing the border is a major challenge each day and needs an effective and efficient organisation with a real focus on law enforcement and security driving it forward. Intelligence is also key in strengthening border and immigration processes—a number of noble Lords referred to that. My noble friend was particularly eloquent about the vulnerability of a liberal democracy such as ours to threats from authoritarian or theocratic states and jihadists.
Border transformation is a key focus for the Government. Maintaining a secure border is about detection, interruption, disruption and prevention as far upstream in the process as possible. It is about making sure that we are in the right place at the right time, with the right information, to stop the threat at source before it even reaches our shores.
The work that we do overseas is vital to maintain our strong border. At our embassies and high commissions, staff deal with large volumes of applications to travel to the United Kingdom. Biometric visas are a vital step in maintaining a secure border. I think that the development of biometric visas has been widely welcomed by all in this debate.
We keep our visa regime under constant review to ensure that it is in line with risk and remains the most secure in the world. The UK’s Risk And Liaison Overseas Network, RALON, works with airlines overseas in a training and advisory capacity in relation to the adequacy of documents held by passengers seeking to travel to the UK. While RALON officers have no legal powers, their role allows them to remind carriers of potential financial penalties if they allow boarding to somebody who may be inadmissible to the UK. As a consequence of their interventions, around 8,000 passengers were denied boarding in 2011-12. Equally importantly, RALON assists local authorities in the identification of facilitators and racketeers involved in the organised movement of inadequately documented passengers, identifying and leading or supporting criminal investigations overseas and in the UK.
We also have a robust visa application process. The Home Office refused more than 330,000 visa applications last year, playing a key role in ensuring that only genuine travellers are granted a right to enter the UK, and we are committed to providing an ever improving service to support this. We have already introduced a number of service enhancements to ensure a good customer experience and are constantly seeking improvements.
Border technology is an integral tool in helping to protect the UK against potential acts of terrorism, serious crime and abuses of the immigration system—it was mentioned by my noble friend Lady Hamwee. When we are able to assess passengers and crew in advance of travelling, it greatly assists our ability to control borders. Our technology, combined with our robust visa regime, means better protection and a stronger border than ever before.
We continue to see the benefits of advanced passenger data collection on both inbound and outbound journeys. It provides early warning of the arrival of people of interest and the departure of individuals giving concern from a security, immigration or customs perspective. We now check the movements of more than 148 million passengers and crew a year from passenger information provided by 147 carriers on 4,790 routes into the UK. Since 2005, we have collected and analysed data on almost 600 million passengers and crew movements. My noble friend Lord Hodgson talked about the scale of what we are dealing with in this hugely mobile world. These figures give us an indication of the sheer capacity that we require to keep control of our borders.
Border Force was created on 1 March 2012 as a separate operational command within the Home Office with direct ministerial oversight—as has been correctly pointed out, it is headed up by Vice-Admiral Montgomery—separating border control functions from the wider immigration functions of the Home Office. The aim is to bring a genuine law enforcement culture to Border Force. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, expressed some concern about the different elements of responsibility within the command structure of immigration and migration control policy. However, we believe that properly focused management is an important aspect of our responsibility to maintain a secure border.
Border Force continues to make a significant contribution to cutting crime. In 2012-13 we made nearly 70,000 seizures, including more than £200 million-worth of smuggled tobacco and cigarettes, and more than £100 million-worth of smuggled alcohol. Many people are still trying to enter the UK illegally or without the appropriate documentation. Border Force refused entry to almost 10,000 people at ports in 2012, and another 4,000 were stopped at juxtaposed controls in France and Belgium before they could even enter the country.
In 2012-13, for those passengers for whom we have measured the queuing times, more than 99% were cleared through immigration control within our published service standards, which is exceeding the target. I frequently travel by air and I know how frustrating it is to arrive at an airport at the end of journey feeling a little bit tired, but the new system is providing a much faster throughput than was the case a few years ago.
As the Minister in the Home Office with responsibility for identity, I listened carefully to my noble friend Lord Marlesford, as I always do; indeed, I always listen to my noble friend Lord Selsdon when he talks about identity. My noble friend Lord Marlesford raises a valid point in relation to dual nationals and of how the authorities keep tabs on the movements of people who travel using one passport to get out of the country and another passport to get into the country. This is an issue worthy of further consideration, and I can tell my noble friend that I will think through what he says very carefully before returning to him on this matter.
A number of noble Lords asked about exit checks. The Government have made a commitment to reintroduce exit checks by 2015. We are currently exploring how advance passenger information can support this and what, if any, further changes are necessary to deliver the exit checks and our e-borders capability. We continue to see the benefits of advance passenger data, providing early warning of the arrival and departure of individuals giving concern from a security, immigration or customs perspective.
There have been a number of noble Lords who have mentioned the announcement on 26 March by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, which I repeated here. It laid out her reasons for dissolving the UK Border Agency. I think that the debate has recognised that the UK Border Agency was not working. One of the aims of the restructure was to split the work of the agency to create two entities with two distinct structures. In its place will be an immigration and visa service and an immigration law enforcement organisation; two commands within the Home Office and directly accountable to Ministers in the exactly the same way as Border Force is directly accountable to Ministers.
The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, points out the importance of people and direction in, if I may say so, leadership in making sure that these forces are effective. I might not share all of the analysis in his critique, but he rightly identifies the work of John Vine and how invaluable his critical assessment of performance in those agencies is proving to be.
By creating two entities instead of one, we will be able to create distinct cultures. The first is a high-volume service that makes high-quality decisions about who comes here, with a culture of customer satisfaction for businessmen and visitors who want to come here legally. The second is an organisation that has law enforcement at its heart and gets tough on those who break our immigration laws.
Physical embarkation controls are carried out on a targeted, intelligence-led basis. Border Force and immigration enforcement officers perform checks targeted at immigration and customs crime, including identifying overstayers and detecting smuggled cash proceeds of crime. During 2012, electronic exit checks resulted in 566 police arrests on outbound passengers.
The Home Office has already shown that it can deliver for the country, despite budget pressures. Immigration reforms are working. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that we have achieved net migration cuts of more than one-third. The evidence shows that our policy reforms are not inhibiting growth or putting people off coming to the UK. I reiterate that there are no restrictions on student numbers coming to this country. We are striving to ensure that the brightest and best come to the UK to study. Increases in visa fees will ensure that those coming to the UK contribute accordingly. Fee increases will be matched by substantial improvements to visa processing services to ensure that the UK remains open for business. There was a 5% increase in visas issued for skilled individuals under Tier 2 in the year to March 2013, showing that we are attracting the brightest and best to the UK and supporting the growth agenda.
That brings me on to what has been probably one of the most remarkable speeches that we have heard today, that of my noble friend Lord Hodgson. He put the current management of our borders and the conduct of our immigration policy in the perspective of the sheer scale of recent migration and the global nature of the world in which we live. There is much to debate in the issues that he raises, not least the whole thrust of the argument in my comment that there was a 5% increase in visas issued for skilled individuals under Tier 2. That is tremendously important for the UK economy, but what is the corresponding impact on the developing world? There is a strong argument for saying that Britain as a force for good in the world has a huge role, in soft diplomatic terms, in providing a place where people can come to study and take those skills away or indeed develop them here within our own community.
I will address a few points made by my noble friend Lord Marlesford. He made a strong attack, and one or two others mentioned this, on what he perceived to be corruption within our border force—not the Border Force, but the old border agency. Our corruption strategy is focused on proactively reducing the motive and opportunity for corruption and fraud by increasing our deterrence and prevention activity. In creating an anticorruption culture, we are enhancing our capability proactively to identify more corrupt activity, and we are creating a centre of investigative excellence in anticorruption by developing the skills and capabilities of the investigators and enhancing the processes utilised for the management of anticorruption activity.
My noble friend also asked a number of questions about e-Borders. To date, e-Borders has cost the UK £475 million. The activity of e-Borders has now been absorbed within the wider and more comprehensive border systems programme for which Sir Charles Montgomery is the senior responsible officer. The e-Borders element of the programme forms part of a procurement proposal that is likely to last 12 to 14 months. Subject to approvals contracts, new supplies should be in place by late 2014. Thereafter, the service will move across to the newly contracted suppliers over a six- to nine-month period.
The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, asked about border policing command. This will brigade the National Crime Agency’s operational response overseas and at the UK border into a single entity. The border policing command will better co-ordinate intelligence and operational activity through co-location within Border Force, Special Branch, and other partners and intelligence teams at the border to identify more criminal groups operating across the UK border and to increase disruptions. It will lead proactive investigations at the border, such as into corruption and evasion of controls at small ports, that will limit the ability of criminals to move and operate across the UK border.
There are a few points in noble Lords’ speeches to which I would like to refer. I mentioned that my noble friend Lord Marlesford talked about the anarchy of the failed state and the threat that it posed to this country. He felt that the quality of our staff in the border service was not adequate. I think that I answered that in describing the new leadership that is being provided through this. This is the right approach for the future of our border services.
My noble friend Lady Hamwee emphasised the use of intelligence to combat crime and a terrorist threat. My noble friend Lord Bridgeman asked about the attraction of the UK for Asians, but mentioned how within communities it was quite easy for those who came here and were not desirable to get lost. This is an issue of which we are very conscious.
My noble friend Lord Hodgson’s speech was a remarkable contribution. To my noble friend Lord McColl of Dulwich I say that the team to deal with trafficking remains in place. We recognise that this is an important issue, and we want to make sure that we have effective controls in detecting trafficking and prosecuting those responsible for it.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Rosser—perhaps I surprise him again—in saying that intelligence and technology are the heart of secure borders. They must be the heart of what we do. I add to that good leadership of the people engaged in this task, which I take from the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. Effective immigration controls in the interests of national security are key. Work to secure our border begins far beyond the UK’s shores. We work around the world to ensure that we are in the right place at the right time with the right information to stop the source of the threat before it reaches our shores.
Immigration Rules: Impact on Families
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)
I thank all noble Lords for contributing to a good debate and in particular my noble friend Lady Hamwee for tabling the Motion. It can but be a proper function of this House to scrutinise government and what it does. In this area, noble Lords have indicated in their speeches today sincere and genuine interest in the application of policy.
As noble Lords know, the Government are determined to reform the immigration system and restore public confidence in it. In that context we implemented in July 2012 a major set of reforms of the requirements to be met by non-European Economic Area nationals seeking to enter or remain in the UK on the basis of family life. The Government welcome the report of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Migration on its inquiry into the impact of the new family migration rules. In monitoring this impact, we will consider carefully the findings of the report.
Many noble Lords have spoken of their concerns about these new rules. The passion of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and the challenges from my noble friends Lord Teverson, Lord Avebury and Lord Taylor of Warwick have provided us with a test. I enjoyed the speeches of the noble Lords, Lord Parekh and Lord Kilclooney. I am not entirely sure that I enjoy the testing standards of my noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno, but I am pleased that in his closing speech the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, demonstrated that we agree on many of the key issues and recognise the heart of them for government. I hope he does not believe that I presume too much.
Perhaps I can start by setting out the background to the changes introduced last year. My noble friend Lord Teverson focused very strongly on his concerns about family life in this country. The Government welcome those who want to make a life in the UK with their families, to work hard and to make a contribution, but family life must not be established here at the taxpayer’s expense. That is fundamental for the income test and is the reasoning behind the income threshold. We expect the new income threshold to prevent burdens on the taxpayer and promote successful integration. Those wishing to establish their family life here must be able to stand on their own feet financially. That is not an unreasonable expectation as the basis of sustainable family migration and good integration outcomes, on which I am sure all noble Lords agree.
The previous requirement for adequate maintenance was not, as it turned out, an adequate basis for sustainable family migration and good integration outcomes. It provided little assurance that UK-based sponsors and their migrant partner could support themselves financially over the long term. One of its considerable downsides was that it involved a complex assessment of the current and prospective employment income of the parties and their other financial means, including current or promised support from third parties. This was not conducive to clear, consistent decision-making.
That is why the Government decided to establish a new financial requirement for sponsoring family migrants. The level of the threshold was based principally on expert advice from the independent Migration Advisory Committee. The levels of income required are those at which a couple, once settled in the UK and taking into account any children, because children can be included in the threshold by an additional threshold sum, generally cannot access income-related benefits. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and my noble friend Lord Taylor of Warwick said that a family policy needs to be fair. The Government believe that this is a fair and appropriate basis for family migration. It is right for migrants, local communities and the UK as a whole.
The Government agreed with the Migration Advisory Committee’s conclusion that there is no clear case for varying the income threshold across the UK. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, will understand that it would be impossible to set a threshold for migration to Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales. What would become of freedom of movement within the United Kingdom? It is unreal, and that is the principal reason why it has been ruled out. A requirement that varied by region could lead to sponsors moving to a lower threshold area in order to meet the requirement before returning once a visa was granted. It could also mean that a sponsor living in a wealthy part of a relatively poor region could be subject to a lower income threshold than a sponsor living in a deprived area of a relatively wealthy region. A single national threshold also provides clarity and simplicity for applicants and caseworkers. I think all noble Lords will agree that the Immigration Rules are complex enough. They have been complicated by politicians and lawyers, and we need to make the rules as simple as we can if we want an efficient and effective way of determining outcomes.
We have built significant flexibility into the operation of the threshold allowing for different income sources to be used towards meeting the threshold as well as significant cash savings. Employment overseas is no guarantee of finding work in the UK, and the previous and prospective earnings of the migrant partner are not taken into account in determining whether the threshold is met. If the migrant partner has a suitable job offer in the UK, they can apply under tier 2 of the points-based system.
We have also made significant changes to the adult and elderly dependent relative route, ending the routine expectation of settlement in the UK for parents and grandparents aged 65 or over. A number of noble Lords were concerned about this. The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, made an eloquent speech about it. Close family members are now able to settle in the UK only if they require a level of long-term personal care as a result of their age, illness or disability that can be provided only in the UK by their relative here. The route is now limited to those applying from outside the UK. These changes reflect the significant NHS and social care costs to which these cases can give rise.
The report highlights some cases affected by the changes that we have introduced to this route. The new criteria for adult dependent relatives more clearly reflect the intended thrust of the requirement of the old rules that parents and grandparents aged under 65 and other adult dependent relatives of any age be allowed in the most exceptional compassionate circumstances to settle in the UK.
There should be no expectation that elderly parents and grandparents who are self-sufficient or who can be cared for overseas should be able to join their children or grandchildren in the UK. That is the policy intention and the cases which have been highlighted are not unintended consequences. They demonstrate how the policy is intended to work.
The new family rules are intended to bring a sense of fairness back to our immigration system. The public are rightly concerned that those accessing public services and welfare benefits have contributed to their cost. The changes we have made are having the right impact and they are helping, I hope, to restore public confidence in the immigration system.
The number of partner and other family route entry clearance visas issued in the year ending March 2013 is 37,470. It has fallen by 16% compared with the year ending March 2012. I can assure all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate—the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, approached this with a great deal of understanding of the issues—that we will continue to monitor the impact of the rules. Since last July we have made some adjustments to the rules in response to feedback from customers and caseworkers. These include allowing those in receipt of research grants paid on a tax-free basis to count the amount on a gross basis and counting investments transferred into cash savings within the period of six months before the date of application. My honourable friend Mark Harper has also indicated, in a parallel debate in another place, that he would consider representations made on parts of detail about the operation of other aspects of the rules. I hope noble Lords feel that this debate has been worth while. Certainly the report of the APPG has been worth while.
Lord Judd
The Minister, in his usual way, is replying with great courtesy and concern. We all appreciate that. He referred to the complexity in the regulations and the difficulties for caseworkers and, indeed, we might add, border officials and the rest in applying those regulations. Does he not agree that that is why it is so important that certain salient points of guidance should be expressed all the time by Ministers and others, such as the paramount importance of the child, the rights of the child and the situation of the child in the midst of this jungle of complexity?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I would agree with the noble Lord that our policy here within the UK is a strong focus on family—and indeed on children. It could be argued that there is a dichotomy here between an immigration policy that is designed to limit numbers and reduce net migration and the maintenance of family structures.
I was going on to seek to answer the noble Lord’s points on a number of issues because he did ask about the impact on children. We recognise the importance of the duty under Section 55 of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009 to safeguard and promote the welfare of children in the UK. The consideration of the welfare and best interests of children is taken into account in immigration policy. The noble Lord came in right on cue even if I have not been able to satisfy him totally.
My noble friend Lord Avebury asked whether any adult dependent relative visas have been issued since October 2012. I can give him an answer to that. In the year ending March 2013, 5,066 visas were issued to other family members according to published Home Office statistics. These figures do not separately identify adult dependent relatives of British citizens and settled persons in the UK.
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, asked what consideration of the impact of policies on boys denied contact with the fathers, and of the impact of policies on both boys and girls, was taken into account in the development and implementation of the new rules. We do not know how many children are affected by the rules. Where the effects of refusal under the rules would be unjustifiably harsh, there is a provision to grant leave outside the rules on a case-by-case basis if there are exceptional circumstances.
I said before that this has been a good debate, not least because there have been three John D Taylors speaking in it. I am grateful to all noble Lords, however, for their contributions. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Hamwee for bringing the report to the attention of the House and of the Government. We welcome all contributions to the debate on how best to ensure that family migration is done on a properly sustainable basis. I am grateful to have the chance to hear the views on these issues. I am conscious that I have not replied to every point that has been raised in this debate but, with the leave of noble Lords, I will write a commentary on the debate, covering all points made, addressed to my noble friend Lady Hamwee and copied to all participatory Peers, and place a copy in the Library.