Future Defence Capability

Debate between Lord Stirrup and Lord Coaker

Wednesday 26th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The Chagos deal is extremely important for our own security and that of the US. When the deal is finalised, it will be put before Parliament with the costings and then Parliament can debate it. The future of the base at Diego Garcia, which is crucial to us and our allies, is secured, and that is the important point of any deal that is finalised.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister said the ministry will put “NATO first”. NATO, through SACEUR, has defined the force structure it believes necessary if the alliance is to deter Russian aggression. It has also set out the contribution it wishes the UK to make to that force structure. What action has the Ministry of Defence taken to cost NATO’s request, and how does it compare to our currently available military capabilities?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My understanding is that discussions have taken place between ourselves and NATO and SACEUR about the capabilities that they would expect from us. We are currently looking at both the cost and our ability to provide the capabilities. It is my understanding that those negotiations are still under way. If that is incorrect, I will write to the noble and gallant Lord.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Debate between Lord Stirrup and Lord Coaker

Committee stage
Monday 24th March 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I shall speak very briefly to this set of amendments, really to provide some balance, because I feel that we should hear both sides of the argument. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, in introducing these amendments, said that the commissioner should not be visiting without the Secretary of State being aware, and I entirely agree with that. Obviously, the Secretary of State is the person with political responsibility, who needs to know what is going on and whether the commissioner has identified a potential problem. However, not being aware is not the same as having seven days’ notice. There is a very large gap between those two things.

What we have just heard from the noble and gallant Lord about the commanding officer having the right to deny access is, I am aware, not directly in line with these amendments. However, on day one in Committee we talked about how the ombudsman, as structured, has not worked and has not had sufficient powers. We have to be careful to make sure that we are not putting a commissioner in the same position here. We have to be realistic: there may be a systemic issue, such as those we talked about on the previous day in Committee, and a concern about the treatment of female service people. We might hope that a commander would always want that issue to be exposed and understood, but we cannot guarantee that, and it is really important that we do not disempower the commissioner with changes to this Bill before they are even created and put in place.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, back to her place today; I know she was busy elsewhere in the House of Lords on our first day. It is welcome to see her here. Both she and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, asked about the opportunity to discuss the points that have been made, and we can of course meet between Committee and Report to do so. I can promise the meeting, but I cannot promise the outcome. To be frank, as noble Lords will know, that is how we in this House conduct business, improve legislation and achieve the objective that we all want: the commissioner being effective and having the appropriate powers to do the task they undertake.

As noble Lords know, I like to make some general remarks before making formal points; I hope that is helpful to the Committee. I understand the noble Baroness’s point about the balance between the powers of the Secretary of State and of the commissioner, and I will say something about that. We have tried very hard to balance those powers. I also hear the point made by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, about the importance of national security. There may be elements of a particular base that one would expect the commissioner to be precluded from visiting for national security reasons, even if it is not the whole base; there is also the role of the commanding officer to consider.

On the question of intention, if we take the example of a normal decision of the commissioner to visit a base, the noble Baroness and the noble and gallant Lord will see that there is a requirement in the Bill for the commissioner to notify the Secretary of State that they are visiting a particular base:

“If the Commissioner proposes to exercise the power under subsection (1), the Commissioner must give the Secretary of State notice of the proposal within such period before exercising the power as the Commissioner considers appropriate”.


The noble Baroness’s amendment would require that that happen at least seven days before the commissioner intends to exercise the power. The expectation would be that the Secretary of State would then tell the commanding officer that such a visit was to take place.

However, as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, pointed out, under the Bill a confidential list will be drawn up saying where the Secretary of State believes it inappropriate for the commissioner to visit because of national security reasons. That will be shared with the commissioner, although it will remain confidential. But we will take up the point made by the noble and gallant Lord about how that will work with a base only a small part of which may be subject to national security concerns.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

The Minister said that, ordinarily, the commissioner will give notice to the Secretary of State. But equally—this comes back to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle—we know that, in order to be truly effective, in some circumstances the Armed Forces commissioner will need to give little or no notice. That is fine because that helps the effectiveness of the commissioner, but a commanding officer is then exposed to the possibility of the commissioner wanting access to a site to which he or she should not properly be allowed access, because of national security. So, in proposing that the commanding officer have a backstop ability to deny access, we are seeking to improve the power and authority of the commissioner, because that then reduces the need for undue notice on their behalf.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Debate between Lord Stirrup and Lord Coaker

Committee stage
Wednesday 19th March 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

That is a really helpful comment from my noble friend. These are draft regulations; we are not going to legislate them now. The Bill will give us the power to create secondary legislation, and those draft regulations can be changed when people make various comments, including the ones my noble friend has made. Those can be taken into account and, if there needs to be change, there can be.

The whole point of the draft is that it gives the opportunity for noble Lords to make various comments on them. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, may reflect that kinship is not covered in the way she would expect, and therefore could make that point in response to the remarks I have made and will make. That is the whole point of what we are discussing. If this draft is not drawn tightly enough, of course it will have to be changed.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

In my time, I have seen some mind-bogglingly complex family arrangements, some of which would not be comprehended by these regulations. I say to the noble Lord that I do not believe that it would be possible to write something out that will cover all possible contingencies. I wonder what degree of flexibility there will be in all of this to take account of the unforeseen when it comes to very complex family arrangements.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

One would expect the complexity of modern family life to be reflected in the regulations. In the end, one would hope that the commissioner would exercise some professionalism and care with respect to that. I take the noble and gallant Lord’s point and my noble friend’s point, but it is extremely difficult to do this and to capture every single potential arrangement.

However, as I said in response to the noble Baroness, we are trying to have as broad a definition as we can, including as many different arrangements as we can, with some flexibility to try to capture the sorts of arrangements that we may not have thought of—such as those who are engaged and so on. As my noble friend pointed out, in his view, this does not adequately capture that; we will have to reflect on that and, where necessary, change it. A point was made about the difficulty of this; one has to try to do it, but we are ultimately dependent on the sensitivity of the commissioner, which is what I would hope we would do. The noble Baroness will have to reflect on the kinship point.

I totally agree with the points that the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, made about attestation. The commissioner has a responsibility for the particular individual from that time. I will refer to that again in my remarks, but I totally agree with what the noble Lord said.

I thought the intervention of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, was extremely pertinent. Many of us here are concerned about the abuses that we have seen. He made a particular point with reference to recruit training and the balance there must be between rigorous training to make sure somebody is fit for service with the abilities and aptitudes that one would expect and ensuring that that training is not inappropriate, bullying or in any way abusive. Certainly there is an expectation that, were that a concern or something that is brought to the commissioner’s attention, they would look into it.

It is good to see the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, here with the experience that she can bring from her role. She is somebody who has shown that the “So what?” question can be answered, and she has made a very real difference with respect to victims. The “So what?” question is really important to the whole of the Committee.

Many of us who have served are sick and tired of reading report after report, but there are changes happening and improvements taking place. At the same time, in the evidence given yesterday to the Defence Select Committee by the Chief of the General Staff, the First Sea Lord, the Minister for Veterans and others, they were openly talking about their complete disgust at some of the things that still happen and their desire to continue to work for changes. In fact, noble Lords may have seen some of the changes that they suggested, one of which was the establishment of a specialist tri-service team to deal with the most serious complaints. This tries to take them out of the single service that they would normally go to, by having a tri-service complaint system. That was something that the Chief of the General Staff and others talked about yesterday.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

One of the issues that we discussed at Second Reading was the challenge of people actually accessing the commissioner. This seems to be a particular concern for those in recruit training. Old lags in the system will generally know how it works and will have friends around who can tell them; they will understand what they need to do to get the commissioner involved. However, recruits will be a bit hazy on all that and extraordinarily reluctant, in the environment in which they find themselves, to complain. This comes back to the point I made earlier: is there not a need for a particular set of arrangements for those undergoing recruit training beyond those applied to the broader swathe of service personnel?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord makes a good point. Let us reflect on that and see where we get to. But I could not agree more with him about the nervousness that you would expect from a recruit who has just joined and done the attestation and is part of the Armed Forces, but who feels that it is what is happening with respect to him or her is inappropriate.

UK Defence: Hypersonic Missiles

Debate between Lord Stirrup and Lord Coaker

Monday 3rd March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I do believe that the United States—let us say again, we have a special relationship with the United States—is a really important ally for this country, if not the most important. We should state that now and we should state that as we go forward. In terms of AUKUS, we remain totally confident with respect to both pillar 1 and pillar 2, along with Australia. Australia, the UK and the US will develop AUKUS and that too, in terms of hypersonic capability in pillar 2, remains an important part of the work we are doing to defend our country and our freedoms, and democracy across the world.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, space-based surveillance plays a key role in hypersonic missile defence of the future. Can the Minister assure the House that this case has been made with sufficient vigour to those conducting the strategic defence review, not least because of the potential of leveraging the excellent satellite manufacture and delivery capacity in Scotland?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord makes an important point on the importance of space and satellites. That case has been made with vigour to the defence review and we await the outcome of that. On the second part of the noble and gallant Lord’s question and his point about Scotland, of course it is important. Part of what we are saying with the growth in defence spending is that we need to ensure that there is an emphasis on UK manufacturing and on the regions and every nation of the UK, so that they too can benefit from that. It informs and helps develop the Government’s growth agenda.

Major Defence Contracts

Debate between Lord Stirrup and Lord Coaker

Monday 3rd February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, when the defence review finally appears, it is hard to imagine that it will not include a requirement for an innovative, agile and scalable defence industry. What impact does the Minister think that the continued uncertainty over funding, alongside the treatment being meted out to the defence industry at some of our academic institutions, will have on the long-term investor confidence so necessary to the future health of this crucial sector?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I say to the noble and gallant Lord that of course the defence industry will be an important partner for His Majesty’s Government. He will know that we are currently consulting on a new defence industrial strategy. That consultation finishes at the end of February and we will come forward with various proposals to deal with the defence industry and promote it in the future.

This gives me a chance to take the point he made, which I think most noble Lords will take. He made the point about the inability of the RAF to go to certain university campuses to recruit and the inability of certain defence industries to go to certain university campuses to promote, quite legitimately, their sales and defence jobs. That is an absolute disgrace. I hope the universities take that on board and do something about it.

Undersea Internet Cables

Debate between Lord Stirrup and Lord Coaker

Thursday 16th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Of course, we are keen to support any country which supports international law and freedom of navigation, and Finland acted appropriately. As a member of JEF, we work very closely with Finland. The noble Lord will know—no doubt this will come up in many of the questions that follow—that the UK Government are leading a number of Joint Expeditionary Force operations. Operation Nordic Warden, for example, involves operations with respect to the Baltic. NATO is taking action with Baltic Sentry. All of us are acting more robustly with respect to the threats, as we see them, in the Baltic Sea and beyond, to ensure that we protect critical underwater infrastructure.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, NATO’s launch of Operation Baltic Protector and the other initiatives the Minister has mentioned are to be welcomed, but of course, the threats to our undersea infrastructure extend far beyond the Baltic and one or two isolated areas. What action is being taken to extend this initiative to a more comprehensive approach to our vulnerabilities? What discussions are being had to ensure that the actions of the military are fully co-ordinated with civilian investment in redundancy and resilience to ensure that we have a properly comprehensive approach to this very dangerous situation?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The need for greater resilience across government is something that the Government are taking up. We understand the need for all departments, not just the Ministry of Defence, to take action on resilience. The noble and gallant Lord will also have seen that the Ministry of Defence has taken action on other threats that have occurred in other areas, including the channel and the North Sea. We expect further attention to be given in the defence review to what resources and capabilities are needed to ensure we deal with what is an increasing and emerging threat.

Drones: RAF Bases

Debate between Lord Stirrup and Lord Coaker

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

That is obviously a matter of real importance, and the defence review is looking at what we should do with respect to air defence in the round, including defence of the homeland, as the noble Baroness asks.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, this is a question not just of defence sites but of much wider national resilience. We have seen the extensive use of drones in Ukraine against non-military targets. Can the Minister reassure the House that the Government will look at this problem in that much wider context? Quite clearly, we cannot mount air defence systems around every single part of our critical national infrastructure, and we have to ensure that we have some other method of protecting them against this new threat.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble and gallant Lord for that important comment, and I will make sure that it is reflected upon within the Ministry of Defence. He makes a really important point about air defence—of course that is an important aspect of it—but there are other ways of protecting our sites and other ways of conducting warfare. Ukraine has shown us the importance of hybrid warfare, and that certainly is something that the defence review will look at. But I will take his very important comments back to the MoD.

Defence: 2.5% GDP Spending Commitment

Debate between Lord Stirrup and Lord Coaker

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister knows that defence requires 2.5% of GDP now if it is to avoid cuts in capability and will require even higher spending in future. When the men and women of our seriously underresourced Armed Forces are required to confront the increasingly perilous situation in Europe and beyond over the next decade and their lives are on the line, how much consolation does he think they will take from repeated protestations about a £22 billion black hole?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord raises a serious point. The Government have given a cast-iron guarantee to reach the cap of 2.5%. As he knows, I meet the forces all the time, and I would give them the reassurance that we are seeking to ensure that they have the capability they need to meet the future threats that will be identified by the defence review. We make that commitment.

Combat Air Capability

Debate between Lord Stirrup and Lord Coaker

Thursday 10th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

We certainly do understand that: 3,500 people are already employed in the development of this, £2 billion has already been invested in the research and development of the programme and further money will be invested, as we go forward. As the Prime Minister said a few weeks ago, the Global Combat Air Programme is “important” and

“we are making significant progress … There is … a review going on but … it is an important programme”.

I think that gives the reassurance that the noble Baroness is looking for.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, as I highlighted in Grand Committee yesterday, on current plans, by 2040 the UK will be down to just three combat air squadrons. Irrespective of the debate over the type and nature of future platforms, would the Minister agree that this position is wholly untenable for any Government who care about the security of this country?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord makes a good point. He is really referring to investment in our defence capabilities as we go forward. The review will look at the threats that we need to meet, but this Government have made an absolute commitment to go to 2.5% of GDP as soon as we can. I think that gives some reassurance to the noble and gallant Lord.

Ministry of Defence: Expenditure

Debate between Lord Stirrup and Lord Coaker

Thursday 25th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I think she slightly gets in front of herself. We have made a commitment to 2.5%, and that is a cast-iron guarantee. The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is in his place and has heard the points she has made. We look forward to a deliverable, affordable plan that will meet the threats we will face in the future—not the threats now or in the past, but in the future. That is why the review of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is so important. The money that we spend has to be spent to deliver the capabilities needed to meet those threats. That is the fundamental principle that underlies what we are doing, and it will be maintained.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, we are still awaiting the outcome of the review, and in the light of the undoubted financial pressures it faces, can the Minister assure the House that his department will not view as easy options for in-year savings levels of training upon which military capability so crucially depends, and the adequate maintenance of infrastructure, which is already in a poor condition and is an important factor in the retention of experienced personnel?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord makes an important point. Of course there are competing pressures on any budget, whatever its size, but infrastructure—the hangars, runways and accommodation—is an important consideration. He also makes a point about the level of skills training. He will know, as will many Members in this House, that there are serious skills shortages in all the Armed Forces, and we face a challenge to meet the requirements we have because of that skills shortage. Skills training, accommodation and infrastructure will play an important part in any review that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, conducts.

Tempest Global Combat Air Programme

Debate between Lord Stirrup and Lord Coaker

Tuesday 23rd July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his important Question. The strategic defence review is a root-and-branch review to look at the capabilities that our Armed Forces will need as they meet the threats of a changing world. It will look at defence in the round—and, of course, it will look at programmes across the whole of defence. Can I just pick up on one point from my noble friend? As he says, in the review we do emphasise the importance of the deterrent as well as support for Ukraine and AUKUS.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

With the global combat air programme, will due weight be accorded to the importance of breaking into the Japanese defence programme for the first time in any substantial way, with the associated financial and technological benefits that will bring and the linkages it will create in a crucial strategic area?