Ministry of Defence: Expenditure

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Thursday 25th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they have made any decisions to pause expenditure on Ministry of Defence programmes; and, if so, on which programmes.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)]

Work continues on our programmes within existing allocated funding as the strategic review progresses. This review will consider the threats Britain faces, the capabilities needed to meet them, the state of the UK Armed Forces and the resources available. It will set out a deliverable and affordable plan for defence.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the Minister and congratulate him on his appointment, and welcome him to the Front Bench. My Question was predicated on an already stretched defence budget and government opaqueness about the future. The commitment to spend 2.5% of GDP is very welcome, but we do not know when—it is jam for an uncertain tomorrow. The Leader of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said to this Chamber on Tuesday evening, referring to the strategic defence review, expected to report early next year, that it

“will inform how the amount is reached”.—[Official Report, 23/7/24; col. 424.]

The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is deserving of much admiration, but his expertise is defence, not macroeconomics and certainly not Treasury fiscal wizardry. This is the Government’s most important responsibility; we have to stop pussyfooting around. How can there be any informed strategic defence review when the chief reviewer has not been told what the budget he is working on is?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her welcome to the post; it is an honour to follow her, as well as the noble Earl, Lord Minto. We have made a clear commitment to 2.5%, and the timetable for that will be announced at a future fiscal event. Alongside that, as the noble Baroness will know, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is conducting the review. As we think is important, the noble Lord will come forward with the capabilities needed to meet the threats of the future, and then we will know what we should be spending the money on, rather than just flying blind, without any idea as to the threats we will face and the capabilities needed to meet them.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

On a much narrower point, where do we stand on the order for the fleet solid support ships, bearing in mind the dreadful financial position of Harland & Wolff?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble Lord will know that the situation with respect to the Belfast shipyard and Harland & Wolff is a difficult one. Our expectation is that those ships will be able to be built. Clearly, the company is looking for a private sector business to support it, and we will look to do what we can to support it in that.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister able to reassure the House, and perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, that this is intended to be a defence-led review, not a Treasury-led review? If the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, and his colleagues in the review find that expenditure needs to be not a vague 2.5% at a certain point but 3% or more, would His Majesty’s Government be willing to spend whatever is necessary?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I think she slightly gets in front of herself. We have made a commitment to 2.5%, and that is a cast-iron guarantee. The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is in his place and has heard the points she has made. We look forward to a deliverable, affordable plan that will meet the threats we will face in the future—not the threats now or in the past, but in the future. That is why the review of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is so important. The money that we spend has to be spent to deliver the capabilities needed to meet those threats. That is the fundamental principle that underlies what we are doing, and it will be maintained.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, we are still awaiting the outcome of the review, and in the light of the undoubted financial pressures it faces, can the Minister assure the House that his department will not view as easy options for in-year savings levels of training upon which military capability so crucially depends, and the adequate maintenance of infrastructure, which is already in a poor condition and is an important factor in the retention of experienced personnel?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord makes an important point. Of course there are competing pressures on any budget, whatever its size, but infrastructure—the hangars, runways and accommodation—is an important consideration. He also makes a point about the level of skills training. He will know, as will many Members in this House, that there are serious skills shortages in all the Armed Forces, and we face a challenge to meet the requirements we have because of that skills shortage. Skills training, accommodation and infrastructure will play an important part in any review that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, conducts.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister does his job extremely well. Can he clarify whether the Government are still fully behind the Storm Shadow missile programme? Will he use this opportunity to clarify whether those Storm Shadow missiles will be deployable within Russia?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

We are of course committed to the Storm Shadow programme. As the Prime Minister has made clear, under Article 51 of the UN charter Ukraine has a clear right of self-defence against Russia’s illegal attacks. That does not preclude striking military targets inside Russia, provided strikes comply with the law of armed conflict and international humanitarian law. As the Prime Minister said, it would be inappropriate to go into the operational detail of how Ukraine uses UK-provided systems. I should say to the noble Lord that that is exactly the same policy that the previous Government pursued.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that we need a proper plan so that we do not end up having aircraft carriers without planes? Is it not about time that we plan for the future, rather than wait for it to happen?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for his important question. Whether it is aircraft carriers and planes, the number of soldiers, technology or other capabilities, you have to have the capability you need to meet the threat that you face. My noble friend is right to point that out. That is the fundamental principle that underlies the review of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, and why he will be working closely with others. I say to all noble Lords that it is an open review and anyone is welcome to contribute to it.

[Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that, at this moment, the Government should remain open-minded on all areas of discretionary defence spending that do not directly contribute to keeping Ukraine in the fight and restoring the credibility of deterrence in Europe?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

Of course we should remain open to any capability that is necessary. The noble and gallant Lord makes a very important point. We are open to all these considerations and factors in the defence of Ukraine, but also in the wider security picture that we face across the globe. No doubt that will be something that the review takes forward. I would welcome the noble and gallant Lord’s contribution to that review, to make the very point that he has just made.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as director of the Army Reserve. The Public Accounts Committee identified a black hole of some £16.9 billion in our capital programme. That sounds a lot, but over 10 years it is actually less than 5% of the programme and manageable. However, as night follows day, there will be deferrals or cancellations of capital projects within the MoD. Normally, it is the smaller, short-term projects that are deferred or cancelled, as opposed to larger, long-term projects. In order to meet the Chief of the General Staff’s aim of doubling the lethality of the British Army in the next three years, it is these very short-term, small projects that are required. When it comes to the balance of investments, will this desire be taken into account?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question and for all the work he does in his position outside this House. He makes an important point. For me, it is not whether it is a small capital project or a large capital project; the important point is how it contributes to the lethality of our forces and how it contributes to us defending not only our country but freedom and democracy across the world. Whether it is a small project, a medium-sized project or a large project, its utility should be decided on that basis. The noble Lord makes a very important point, and I will make sure it is taken into consideration.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, the change of Government has already resulted in a delay to the announcement of the location of the joint government headquarters for the trilateral British, Japanese and Italian fighter jet project, GCAP. Is it true that this project is now dependent on the result of the strategic defence review, or has the Minister been able to give reassurance to the visitors at the Farnborough airshow this week, including the Japanese Defence Minister, that it will go ahead regardless?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The noble Lord will have heard what I said. Not only did I give reassurance to Italy and Japan and our defence companies at Farnborough, I hosted a reception for all those partners last night in your Lordships’ House. It was very well received. We reassured people that work continues on that project, alongside the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is conducting a review that will look at the defence programme across the piece. They were very pleased with what I had to say, and I spent my time reassuring them, here in your Lordships’ House.