Brexit: The Customs Challenge (European Union Committee Report)

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 1st April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for not being polemical, but being very precise in helping us with our arguments. It also gives me a chance to share with the House my favourite moment of the march last Saturday, which was more than 1 million strong as far as I could see—certainly if you counted the people who were not able to get on to the march without wandering around and making London their home for the day. There were many placards, many of them very witty and erudite, some rather clever, and some a bit rude and certainly not to be repeated in polite company. My favourite, because I am sure that we all have one, was one I saw just about half way round. Of course, stupidly, I managed to drop my camera and could not pick it up in time to take a picture of it to give it to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. It said very simply, in bold Times font: “I concur with John Kerr”.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

He was holding it!

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I hear calls that it was he himself; it was not. I actually have no idea what it means, but it says quite a lot about the debate. I thought it was rather good.

This has been a useful and helpful debate on a report that probably had its peak impact a few months ago, but is nevertheless important. I want to explain why as we go through it.

Today we have been reminded of what was in that report and heard speeches from four of the committee members. These helped to explain why it was such a good report. They all said that it was a well-run and well-organised series of sessions with good evidence. Out of that, a fine report, crafted by the staff but signed on by the committee, was done.

We have also attracted an equal number of external Members who have contributed to the debate. That is always to the good and does not always happens in these debates on committee reports. Our committee system is one of the strengths of your Lordships’ House. It is a source of tremendous information, evidence and good and important things that we need to consider. It is therefore very sad that the Government have not honoured it here with a response. That is disrespectful to the committee itself, to the House and to the country. I hope that when the Minister comes to respond, he will have a satisfactory explanation as to why we have been let down in this way. Unless the Government are prepared to support the committee system by providing timely responses to its work, we will lose the quality which we currently have.

The debate today has ranged far and wide, because I think we all share a worry about how to respond to a report that was of its time and is perhaps no longer quite so on the debate. With events happening only a few yards away in another place, it is difficult to be precise and draw conclusions from this report in relation to what we might hear later and which is probably pinging out on the news channels as we speak. However, the evidence that was presented to the committee from those who wrote in to submit it, as well as those who attended, provided a very interesting narrative about the situation described in the report. We would be foolish not to learn lessons from that for any scenario going forward. There has been a tendency in some speeches to use the committee report for a wider debate, but I will try to restrict my comments to the report itself, and hope that the Minister will respond in kind when he comes to reply to the debate as a whole.

The first section is about what happens if the UK fails to secure a deal with the EU. This is still relevant, and therefore it is quite important to understand what the committee was saying. It would be interesting to get a response from the Government to the recommendation in paragraph 86, regarding the administrative burdens that businesses involved in trade will have. Have the Government made any assessment of that and, if so, where might we find consideration of it? There will be considerable extra work for anybody involved in trade, whether or not it is on WTO terms. These burdens need to be assessed.

In paragraph 88, there is a familiar point for the Minister, who I think has had to answer this question on a number of occasions. I am sure he is well briefed on this occasion. Of 145,000 VAT-registered UK businesses trading only with the EU, and 100,000 businesses under the VAT threshold who may be trading—we do not know that—how many have now registered on this magical form which will give them all the answers they want? I think the last number was just 52,000. I am sure that it has gone up, and that he will be able to update us. This is important.

In paragraph 90, the report records that HMRC has estimated that the cost to UK businesses under no deal would be about £18 billion per year. I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to the point made in the report that HMRC could provide an itemised breakdown of those figures. The committee was keen to see it but were unable to get it. It would be helpful if we had that read into the record. If it is not possible to provide it today, perhaps he could write to those who have spoken in this debate.

In paragraph 92, there is a question about technological solutions. This comes up a number of times in the report, here with reference to the Northern Ireland border, where trade under any sort of rules requires, or at least might imply, the reintroduction of a hard border. At the time the committee was meeting, technological solutions were being prepared. Could the Minister update us? Is it still the Government’s assertion that in the event of no deal a technological solution is available to help with that problem? In relation to the points made on paragraph 93 by a number of members of the committee—including the chair—about the impact of checks at ports, particularly the Port of Dover, we all understand that there has clearly been further work on that, including various trial runs. Again, it would be helpful if the Minister could support that.

The main issue in this part of the report was a bit difficult for the committee to get into because it did not know what the tariff regime would be. Many of us in this House have been asking for a number of weeks and months for such detail; it is now available and has been published. I cannot remember the total number of pages but it is very large and there are 4,000 lines of tariff information, which have to be read and understood if one is to get to its basis. Luckily, most of the tariffs are zero so it is a relatively straightforward issue but the reason that they are zero is sometimes elusive. I am sure that the Minister will want to respond to that.

The best comment I have seen on that issue is from the UK Trade Policy Observatory at Sussex University. That organisation has done a number of pieces of work on the customs impacts that are likely to arise from deal or no deal. Its conclusion on the tariffs—I will not quote it but put it in general terms—was that even these tariff arrangements, which I think most commentators have broadly welcomed, will result in a negative impact on the UK economy. Although there are some positives in having a more liberal policy with regards to tariffs, there will still be additional costs, competitive pressures on firms and difficulties. The results also highlight that the policy means that with zero as the main tariff line, even though there are exceptions for certain goods which are protected, the scope for using those tariff lines for any future negotiation in any trade is very limited.

One wonders why we go on and on about how tariffs in relation to goods are going to be so important to any future negotiations when it is quite clear that, when all tariffs are at zero or close to it, you have no room for negotiation as far as goods are concerned. That has always been the case in the UK’s economy; the issue is about non-tariff regulations in services, about which the Government are still very quiet. No doubt this agenda item might be recommended to the chair of the committee as something that it might want to look at in its next workload.

Having dealt with that I can move on to mitigations, where there is only one issue which I wanted to ask the Minister to respond on. It is to make sure that, as in paragraph 120, there is some sense of what the Government’s plan will be,

“to ensure fair and equal treatment of all imported goods coming in on most-favoured nation terms”.

If he is able to respond on that, it would be helpful.

On the third and final part of the report, which is the broader discussion about the facilitated customs arrangement, two points need to be answered. First, when Ministers were giving evidence to the committee, the information from the Government was predicated largely on the role that was to be played by authorised economic operators. I think that scheme is not yet fully developed so I would be grateful if the Minister could give us a bit of an update on where it has got to, in particular whether there is any chance that special arrangements will be made for SMEs. It is argued in the report that SMEs will have difficulty accessing that scheme. Clearly, if they are to be successful—they may well be the way forward—AEO schemes will need a lot more support from government. Where is that going to come from?

Secondly, in paragraph 189 there is a very important question about the rules of origin, which perhaps do not get as much discussion as they need in the customs debate. In that paragraph there is the suggestion that the Government should elaborate on their intended definitions for the “sufficient transformation” of intermediate goods. Again, I would be grateful if the Minister could help us on that.

It is clear that the majority view in the debate today, at least for those who have participated in it and possibly in the House, is that we should be staying in the EU. I do not dissemble from that but it is not an option that this House will be able to exercise much influence on, given that the responsibility must lie with the elected House. For instance, the noble Lord, Lord Horam, and others made the point that even if we are leaving the EU we should stay in a customs union because of the need to maintain frictionless trade, because of the way that it solves the Irish problem, because of rules of origin difficulties and because, as he put it, we actually benefit from the ability to secure deals with other nations based on being within a market of over 500 million people, compared to that of our own.

These are all crucial points, and I end with one thought to which I invite the Minister to respond. As was said by the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, and others, the ambition of the Government in their deal is to have a free trade agreement with the EU that is sans pareil. It is the best, most inclusive and intensive deal, so much so that it would appear able in many ways to be judged by the WTO as a customs union. If that is the case, why is it not possible for the Government to accept that that is where we need to be? A customs union and the ability to be part of the single market are what industry wants and what the trade unions have argued for. It is clear to just about everybody in the country now that that is what we want. There is little point in trying to argue whether there is a difference between a fully-fledged FTA plus engagement with the single market and staying in the EU, but if we are moving out that must be the way forward. Perhaps the Minister could respond.

Trade Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

45: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause—
“Future partnership with the European Union: services
It shall be the objective of an appropriate authority to take all necessary steps to implement a future trade agreement with the European Union that—(a) ensures no additional barriers to trade in services between the European Union and the United Kingdom are erected after exit day;(b) protects—(i) the right of UK nationals and businesses to provide or receive services in the European Union, and(ii) reciprocal rights for EU nationals and businesses to provide or receive services in the United Kingdom;(c) protects—(i) the right of UK businesses to establish a company in an EU member state, and(ii) reciprocal rights for EU businesses to establish a company in the United Kingdom.”

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 45 is in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for whose support I am very grateful. We are reaching the last quarter of our time on this Bill in Committee, and we have never touched, in any serious way, the question of services, which make up 80% of our GDP; they are an important part of our economy now and will be in the future. That curious absence of services has prompted this amendment; it is a probing amendment in the sense that I do not think there is any issue between the Government and us on this. We both recognise the importance of it and want to make sure that it is successful, but it is an opportunity for the Government to set out clearly what they intend to do in this area and to bring forward any thoughts they have about how the importance of services might continue, as the negotiations, which are currently with the EU and will return to the other place shortly, progress.

We hear a lot, importantly, about manufacturing and the physical goods that this country makes and imports. We do not hear nearly as much about services, and that is curious. It is important to be clear why that is. Direct trading of services across borders by purchasing or selling architecture, legal opinion or forms of insurance is a well-known measure of activity. This area has grown considerably and the UK economy is strong and strengthened by that. Business services, financial services and other aspects such as travel, including the tuition fees of foreign students who study in the UK, transportation and telecommunication information services make up the huge proportion of our activity in this area. Most trading of this type is with the EU. It is over 50% if Switzerland is included in the figures, but we also have considerable trade outside the EU and we should not forget that.

It is also important to recognise that, in some senses, exactly how this takes effect is hidden from plain sight. I should explain: we know a lot about the physical movement of things like car parts, because we are told, time and again, that the issue in modern-day trade is not so much the individual purpose of creating a particular object, machine or type of equipment; it is the assembly of the various parts. In the case of a car, bumpers, injectors and all sorts of things that go into the modern car cross the channel several times before being assembled, either here or elsewhere, in the final product, which is then sold. We are concerned about that and much of the Bill has this as part of its process, but the point is that this is not just about physical material. There is also a question about knowledge, intermediate input, services, financing and having the right people in the right place, which is necessary for this complicated pas de deux to work.

The single market, which underpins all this in the EU, plays a pivotal role in facilitating this process of increasing specialisation, because it includes as its basic point—this is derived from consideration within the GATS treaty under the WTO—the four freedoms for moving goods, services, capital and people. Hence, a focus on manufacturing the individual item sees only part of the story.

Why do services not feature more strongly in our discussion and debate? There are three reasons. First, services agreements are a relatively new form of trade negotiation. There are not that many around. They are difficult, because you have to negotiate and consider individual aspects, often regulatory and non-tariff barriers, to the way the trade happens. They cannot always be done by fiat from government; they have to involve large numbers of other companies and organisations. They are bureaucratic; they are not necessarily all organised from a particular aspect in government, such as BEIS or the Department for International Trade, because regulators and government departments will be involved in legal services and other areas. Finally, because different regulations belong to different bodies, it is more difficult to trade one sector, as it were, against another. There is not really an easy route through this, and that may explain why it is often left to the last.

I welcome the Government’s response on that, but it is a cynical response. We have done so well in services trade in recent years and our performance is one of the strongest in the world. We have more to lose in trade negotiations that focus on individual hardware and machinery parts if they do not also make sure that those trading in legal and other services are considered as well. We are in a quandary. We can argue the easy option of a goods-only agreement, because the rules for that are relatively straightforward: the tariffs are already very low anyway and we are not talking about substantial changes to the way in which we would do it. But if you include services then we are talking about a whole range of new activities, new players and the offering of new types of discretion. I will wait to hear the Government’s response, but it could be argued that we in Britain are not yet ready to engage with that successfully.

In that context, the opportunity is there for the Government to respond positively on how we are going to take forward this issue and how important it is to make sure that we get it right, and to make sure that we in this country do not suffer simply because the dog that did not bark—services—is still not barking. I beg to move.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for moving the amendment, which I happily signed. It will be no surprise that we on these Benches favour, still, the United Kingdom continuing as part of the single market of the European Union. However, in many respects this is a mitigating amendment on the basis that, if we are to leave the European Union, the most significant non-financial services sector for the British economy is, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, the services sector. It is right, therefore, that we give proper focus to it in this Bill.

Up until this point, we have discussed the emerging elements of the continuity agreements. We have seen so far only one published, that of Switzerland, and are awaiting others. In the continuity agreement, Switzerland has components on services, and guarantees free movement of people for those providing services. That is beyond the elements in the immigration White Paper and in the withdrawal agreement from the European Union, and it is beyond what the Government have said. There are, however, some indications that the Government recognise that services are critical to the British economy. But it goes beyond that, as do our discussions with Switzerland, which are on the gold market and property.

This affects all parts of the United Kingdom. The UK is more dependent on services, especially non-financial, than perhaps any other country in the world. We export more in absolute terms than any country other than the United States. We have been able to get to that position because we have been doing so within an integrated market of the European Union. In many respects, we in the United Kingdom have been the driving force of the emerging integrated markets in the European Union. It is an irony that, as the architects of this approach to developing the services markets across the European Union to benefit our country, we are going to leave it.

If we are to have a future relationship, it is critical that we focus not only on tariffs and non-tariff barriers but on what is necessary to ensure that we can continue to benefit, at least to some degree, from a services relationship with the European Union. This applies particularly in digital services, as well as in the wider elements of research and development.

Many months ago, your Lordships’ committee reported on this, and in December 2017, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, this House had an opportunity to debate the significance of the non-financial services sector to the British economy. Now, we have the Government’s clear position: we will be leaving it. We are choosing to leave an integrated market, which we have led, so how do we focus on some of the component aspects?

In the withdrawal agreement, we have seen some elements of mutual recognition of qualifications and some elements of professional standards being aligned so that those working in the services sector can be part of a wider operation on the continent and with the European Union. However, this is only a very small aspect of the overall need to have a much closer alignment. It requires government honesty: we may well be leaving the single market, but it needs to be clear what very close alignment would look like.

This applies to the discussions taking place this week and next week on the alternative to a backstop. The arrangements for the Northern Ireland backstop were as much to do with the continuity of the services sector for those providing professional and trade services from north to south and south to north as they were with the checking of the origin of goods at a border for tariff purposes. The all-Ireland economy is, by and large, an all-Ireland economy because of services. We are treaty-bound to protect that, so it is very important to have more clarity from the Government on what they expect to see as alternative arrangements to the Northern Ireland protocol if we are to protect the core elements of an all-Ireland services economy.

We know that we cannot rely on a much wider alternative, which is the WTO. In its last set of discussions, it could not even agree on a communiqué about taking forward future services agreements on a WTO basis. We know that the USA and China are in dispute not only on trade in goods, but also on services, and we know, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, the complexity of even the European Union introducing services components to third-party trade agreements. If we know that it has been difficult, with the UK as the driving force, to secure agreements with other third countries, why do the Government think that it will be easy for the European Union to do it with us?

This amendment, therefore, is very important. I hope that it will allow the Government to be much clearer, because the services sector of the United Kingdom has, in many respects, been the driving force of growth in the UK, one that we cannot afford to put at risk.

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[Lord Bates]

I am grateful for that clarification. I shall make sure that that is what is addressed.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, it sounds as if we are starting off a new train of activity or various letters. I suspect that it might also be helpful if we had a short meeting on some of the issues just to draw them together. Like the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, I was entranced by the detailed nature of the early part of the Minister’s response and I got a bit lost—I think it was on the fourth point the second time round. We will need to read him and understand not only what he was saying but where these points are to be found in more detail. The chance to be able to do that in the context of the very rich debate we have had would be helpful.

That is not to say that I think there is that much between us: with friends like the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, how can I complain? We are on the same side here, most unusually and extraordinarily, agreeing on points of some substance. There is some progress, it has not always been easy going and I think the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, was right to point out that this is partly because we are centring on an agreement which is brokered by the WTO through the GATS system. He is correct—his background in the chambers of commerce means that he reads these documents carefully and understands their provenance—that the wording of the amendment is indeed taken from the four pillars, but I was unable to get the fourth pillar in; the clerks would not accept that. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, managed to get it into the next amendment but one, so we will have that debate shortly. That complication sets us off in slightly the wrong direction: we are not trying to change that structure in essence, because that is the overarching world system and we have to be careful we do not try to take on too many battles at the same time.

The political declaration is not the same as the agreement and of course all that gets wrapped up into some form of yet-to-be-understood free trade agreement which may or may not include both customs elements and services agreements. I think the noble Baroness is right to pick up the question of how all that melds together: will we be able to trade off some aspects of our services in order to achieve a better tariff arrangement, or is it better to keep them separate and deal with the different arrangements? I do not think we have a clear answer to that, but I do not think we are very far apart on it. We want this to be the best for Britain. We have done pretty well, against all the odds. Why change it if it is not certain that the changes are going to be beneficial to us?

Having said that, the question from my noble friend Lord Davies is right: what is the point of this amendment if it does not improve where we are? That is where the test has to be. We must look carefully at the responses and make sure we have the right view. There may be some argument for having something, either in this Bill or in the non-continuity Bill yet to come, if that is the Government’s intention. However, at this stage we are unable to say that, so with that in mind, but with thanks to all who have contributed to a very rich debate, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 45 withdrawn.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Fox has introduced his amendment extremely eloquently and convincingly. In supporting it, I highlight the fact that without the right deal on movement of talent and skills, our creative industries will face major challenges. Some 5.7% of the UK workforce is made up of EU 27 nationals. However, 6.1% of the creative industries workforce is made up of EU 27 nationals. More than that, 10% of the design, publishing and advertising workforce are EU 27 nationals. Some 25% of our visual effects in film—VFX—workforce is from the EU, and that rises to 30% in gaming. We are highly dependent, in those areas of the creative industries, on EU 27 nationals.

Take the music industry, for example. Some £2.5 billion was generated by music in export revenue. Germany, France and Sweden are among our top export markets, and are major destinations for our musicians. In the recent ISM survey of musicians, 39% said that they travel to the EU more than five times a year; 12% travel to the EU more than 20 times a year. More than one in eight performers had fewer than seven days’ notice between being offered work and having to take it, and more than a third of musicians said they received at least half their income from working in the EU 27. There are warnings from these musicians from their experience with the rest of the world. More than a third of musicians had experienced difficulties with visas when travelling outside the EU. In fact, of those experiencing difficulties, 79% identified visas as the source of those difficulties. Musicians in particular rely on being able to work and tour in Europe freely, easily and often with little notice.

It is equally important that the other people vital to touring, such as roadies and technical staff, are able to travel on the same basis. It is also vital that instruments and equipment can be moved around easily, and this must be a reciprocal arrangement. On touring, the Government have said that the UK will look to reach an agreement allowing musicians and museums to tour major events with their equipment and goods. What is considered a major event is not clarified and there are few details on what an agreement would look like.

The Government propose that the new immigration system will preserve the current rules for employing non-visa nationals for short-term work to join a UK production. This allows them to work for up to three months without a visa, requiring only a certificate of sponsorship from their employer, which is cheaper and easier to obtain. For periods longer than three months, the Government are reaffirming that the current tier 5 creative and sporting route, which caters for creative workers such as musicians, actors or artists who are working and touring in the UK, will continue. This is welcome but, again, without the right reciprocal provisions, Brexit is likely to make touring much more difficult for musicians and crews to move across Europe. Increased red tape will make it harder to promote music overseas.

Then, if the withdrawal agreement is agreed, from January 2021 non-visa nationals looking to take up permanent employment in the UK, such as VFX workers, will need to obtain a tier 2 visa. This requires sponsorship from an employer, which must pay a skills charge to make the recruitment. Workers must meet a minimum salary requirement to be eligible for a tier 2 visa. Like my noble friend, I welcome that the Government now plan to consult on the appropriate level for this requirement in the coming year, but the Migration Advisory Committee—MAC—has recommended that it stays at £30,000. There will need to be considerable changes to these proposals if the Government are to ensure that sectors such as the creative industries continue to thrive post Brexit. As the Creative Industries Federation has said,

“high skills do not always command a high salary”.

There is still a huge lack of clarity. The UK Screen Alliance has criticised the plans for a post-Brexit visa system. It says the Bill’s proposed visa system will “severely limit” the VFX and animation industries’ access to international talent. It also says that expensive new EU visas will add significantly to operating costs and impact on the sector’s competitiveness in the global market. Alan Bishop, the chief executive of the Creative Industries Federation, said about the White Paper:

“Unfortunately there is very little in this white paper which will give creative businesses and freelancers in the UK any confidence for the future … government has failed to recognise the challenges freelancers face within the current immigration system—a significant challenge for the Creative Industries Federation where 35% of creative workers are self-employed. Freedom of movement has given British businesses access to the best and brightest freelancers from the EU, presenting those businesses with opportunities to grow and contribute to the continuing health of the UK economy. For international non-EEA freelancers however, the current immigration system provides no long-term route. This is why the Federation has called for the introduction of a freelance visa”.


Those are the words of two significant organisations in this field.

The Government have had plenty of time to consider all these issues and have had plenty of sound advice, not least from quarters such as the July report of the House of Lords European Union Committee, Brexit: Movement of People in the Cultural Sector. That is why this amendment is so important, and I very much hope that the Minister will reflect in his response that the Government fully understand the needs of the creative sector.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, a powerful case has been made by the party to my left. My sadness is that the framing of the amendment before us deals largely with how any future trade agreement with the EU should have a relaxed approach to the mobility framework and, picking up the point of our earlier debate, tries to insert in some measure the fourth pillar of the GATS process, which allows for individuals to travel in support of goods and services.

The case we heard, and the emotion it raises, are about the much broader ideas of freedom of movement and the ability to transfer skills, particularly in the creative industries. Although it was not specifically mentioned, presumably it seeks to try to loosen the way in which the Government currently treat overseas students. There is a wider, richer, deeper and more important argument about the need for mobility, its importance for any modern nation state and the contribution it can make to our economy and our culture. That needs to be answered, but it is not picked up particularly by this amendment.

We too discovered this problem when tabling amendments. The title of the Bill means that we can not have as broad a discussion as we would wish. However, there is an immigration Bill coming, and others in your Lordships’ House will want to pick up many of the points made here and raise them in the context of a much wider and more appropriate set of immigration conditions and arrangements, which will satisfy much of the discussions we have heard this afternoon.

On the narrow question of where we move, it would be wrong to try to seek a broader solution to the problems identified through a generic approach. There is no doubt that what appeared to be—and it was appearance rather than reality—unbridled immigration was a factor in the referendum that led to the formation of the Brexit arrangements. We would be stupid to ignore that. There are probably answers and solutions that would be satisfactory to all concerned, but not in this amendment. Nevertheless, I will listen carefully to what the Minister says in response to this point. This issue will not go away and we look forward to returning to it at a future stage.

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for introducing this amendment, which deals with an important area already touched on this afternoon. It will of course be pored over in some detail as the immigration Bill makes its way to your Lordships’ House.

There is no dodging the key line in the political declaration. At paragraph 56, I think, it makes it clear that free movement will end as the UK leaves the EU. The noble Lord is passionate in his advocacy of free movement, and he has expressed his view that it is a stupid idea—I think I quote him correctly—to get rid of it. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, identified, this issue is more complex. To use his term, unbridled immigration was an issue, and we would be stupid to ignore that. Therefore, there is a difference of views here but, as the noble Lord invites me to set out the Government’s position, I will put it on the record if I can.

I appreciate the desire to ensure that businesses and individuals who trade in services and goods between the UK and the EU will have the ability to move across borders to do so. The Government are committed to securing the best deal for UK businesses. We have set out a clear proposal for an ambitious future relationship with the European Union, including a reciprocal framework for mobility. This was reflected in the political declaration on our future relationship. The detail will be discussed in the next phase of our negotiations.

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[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, against the framework of what the future relationship will be, I do not think that the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Lea, that we do not follow the procedure set by Article 50 for withdrawal but instead combine a withdrawal agreement-plus with seeking to accede or re-accede to EFTA would find much support among our European friends and partners. They would say that that is not what Article 50 says.

The noble Lord has made clear on many occasions his view that the UK should seek the softest possible Brexit, and his amendment would achieve that. If we were to become a member of EFTA—I think that Norway, for one, has not expressed any enthusiasm for our accession or re-accession—it is true that we would escape the jurisdiction of the ECJ and instead be subject to the EFTA Court, but that court follows closely ECJ judgments.

The leader of Norway’s European Movement has stated clearly that it is in neither Norway’s nor the UK’s interest for the UK to become again a member of EFTA. Continued membership of the EEA would require us to accept future EU rules and regulations, but without a seat at the table and with a greatly reduced voice in the formulation of those rules and regulations. It would also prevent the UK having its own trade policy and remove the raison d’être of my noble friend the Minister and the Department for International Trade. We would not be able to enter new free trade agreements with other countries or accede to broader free trade partnerships such as the CPTPP, which includes Japan, an enormously important trade and investment partner, and leading Commonwealth countries such as Australia, Canada and New Zealand, whose trading regulations, policy and law share origins with our own.

The EEA/EFTA proposal would make this Bill redundant, because we would have no need to novate existing EU FTAs and it would negate the whole upside of Brexit, leaving us as effectively a vassal state of the EU. That is not what the people voted for and your Lordships’ House would not be serving the nation’s interest by supporting the amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I hesitate to become too involved in this debate, which seems rather above the level at which I am accustomed to operating, but one or two things came to mind. As the noble Lord, Lord Lea, explained to me and as came through in his address, the purpose of the amendment is to make sure that we explore all possible options before coming to a conclusion on the many difficult issues before us today. He has done that clearly and it will be interesting to hear what the Minister has to say in response.

It would probably defeat any prospect for active negotiation to play the card that has been played in this amendment at this point, but it is worth bearing in mind the issues that it raises and the much broader point that the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, was keen to explore: so many strands to our positioning are being coalesced into a single deal/no deal debate, squeezing out our opportunities for further, richer and more flexible solutions to the long-term problems that we have all recognised and debated today. At this point, it would be best to hear from the Minister what the official line is and then see whether there are issues that we need to come back to on Report.

[Lord Bates]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lea, for setting out the rationale for his amendment. He was sincere in his attempt to persuade us and very thorough, as I would expect of a distinguished economist, in setting out in some detail his thoughts on where this option might go. Whether it is plan B, C, D or E, the reality is that it is a proposal that the Government take seriously and I want to respond to it in that manner.

As my noble friends Lord Finkelstein and Lord Trenchard have mentioned, the very topic of EEA membership was debated in another place in relation to the EU withdrawal Act on 13 June last year and again in relation to this Bill on 17 July. The outcome was clear: the EEA is not the right model for the UK.

Membership of EFTA and the EEA would mean accepting the continued free movement of people, which both Conservative and Labour manifestos pledged to end at the last election—which I suspect is why the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, suggested that this might be a debate that the Labour Front Bench wished to sidestep; of course, on the Government Bench we do not have that luxury.

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[Baroness Fairhead]

My Lords, I think I have reiterated just how important climate change is to the Government’s priorities. The question is: what is the appropriate and most effective way to discuss climate change and to get rules put in place? There are differences of view over the most effective mechanisms, and many would say that trade agreements are not the right place. Others are more effective on that point. However, as we have tried to do and as the noble Baroness will have seen with our most recent trade agreements, such as CETA, we also include references to environmental standards.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am trying to help both sides come to an arrangement. I do not think that the noble Baroness whose amendment we are talking about is trying to set out a route map for the Government—if she is, she is doing it in a very gentle and responsive way. I think she is struggling, as we all are, with the question: if you want to make changes—which she so evidently does, and which a lot of us would support—what is the best way of doing that? Obviously, the noble Baroness has made it clear that you can do it on three levels. You can do it on a case-by-case basis as trade agreements come up, inserting the points you want to make. Alternatively, you can go through the United Nations, which is separate but still obviously influential as regards the wider tone and context in which these matters operate. But the central point, as the noble Baroness said, is that the WTO itself is in some difficulty. It may be all we have and the only way we can do it, but is the Minister seized of the arguments being made that the status quo is not satisfactory in so many ways that there needs to be some sort of movement around the whole issue, but presumably focusing on the WTO, and does she support that?

[Baroness Fairhead]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. Absolutely; I hope I restated that the WTO needs reform in areas such as digital, speed of processing and a number of others. We will continue to be an active participant in those discussions. Therefore, I can say yes to reform. On the particular area of climate change, we also have a clear objective: the Government want to improve the culture of climate change and the approach to it. It is about what is the best way to achieve that, and that is what we are focusing on. With those clarifications, I ask the noble Baroness to consider withdrawing her amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

77: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause—
“Territories forming part of a customs union with UK: amendment to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018
(1) The Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 is amended as follows.(2) Omit section 31(5) (customs union with UK: import duty).”

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Although this group of amendments points in different directions, the amendments have a common starting point, and it is therefore not inappropriate that they should be debated together. Amendment 77 is in my name, joined by other noble Lords, and others have put their names to Amendments 78, 79 and 80, to which I shall also speak.

The history is important, because it raises a wider point than we have recently discussed, although we have from time to time touched on it: the fact that the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act and this Bill are really two sides of the same coin. They deal with aspects of trade which need to be in place in the unfortunate event that we crash out of the EU, but they are also pointers towards how we would carry out our trade policy and activity in the event of either crashing out or, as the Government would wish, having an extended period during which various other agreements would be added to the withdrawal agreement and political declaration.

The question that underlies the amendments is: are we in a good place to take forward those future discussions, given the two pieces of legislation that we are looking at? Because of how the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill was defined as it went through the other place, it came in a form expertly handled by the Minister but which allowed us only a limited degree of comment and an occasional question, which he was of course well able to answer but which did not allow us to either amend or question in any serious way how the Bill was framed or where it pointed.

In addition, at a very late stage in the process in the Commons, the Government accepted a group of amendments tabled by the rather quaintly named European Research Group which, to many people, were tabled very late, rather surprising and subject to little debate—they certainly did not go through Committee. So the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill, unscrutinised by your Lordships’ House, was not even scrutinised to any great extent in the Commons after the later amendments arrived which changed its nature.

At the time, we felt that there were issues that could have been raised in debate, but we were unable to do so. Of course, the presence of the Trade Bill before your Lordships’ House and its ability to amend previous legislation opens up the opportunity to make some changes, if the House feels that to be an appropriate way forward.

In crude terms, Amendments 77 to 80 would reverse the late amendments made by the European Research Group to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill in the other place. In so doing, obviously one looks at the impact that those amendments had and tries to frame our amendments in relation to both the Bill and wider policy arrangements. Briefly, it is fair to say that the conclusion that we on this side have come to is that those amendments do not strengthen our position in general terms and that it should be the duty of this House carefully to consider whether they should be removed, because that would return the Bill to a much better place in terms of where we may require powers set out in the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act to be utilised.

For example, Amendment 77 removes the restriction in Section 31 on creating a customs union with the European Union by requiring a separate Act of Parliament to be passed before the designated powers could be used. We think that that should be amended because the restriction under the previous amendment will make it difficult for the Government to negotiate a customs union—or even the customs union—should that be the way that they wish to move in forthcoming discussions.

As it stands, the collection of taxes and duties on behalf of the European Union would be banned unless there are reciprocal arrangements, but Amendment 78 would change that. I think the debate has moved on here, and it could be argued that Amendment 78 is probably the least important of the group. Nevertheless, it was a change perhaps made in haste and, at leisure, the Government may come to the view that it is not the best way to try to open a negotiation if the possibilities one is offering are already restricted by the Act.

Amendment 79 would make it legal for the Government to enter into arrangements that would see Northern Ireland forming a separate customs territory from the rest of the UK. Although I gather that this has support from the DUP, it still makes it a very different situation and context for any discussion about the backstop arrangements. Other noble Lords may expand on that issue. As it stands, the Bill seems again to cut off an opportunity for future discussion and debate—which is even more important than when the amendments were tabled.

Amendment 80 concerns a rather significant change to the way in which VAT is charged in a customs union. It is perhaps of some interest to your Lordships’ House that we have not, within the duopoly of legislation with which we are currently dealing—the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act and the Trade Bill—dealt with the question of why the VAT rules that operate within the EU have not also been subject to attention. It will be interesting to hear the Minister’s response.

Of course, VAT is dealt with under separate rules under a separate agreement among the countries in the EU; it is not part of the EU as such, nor part of any other arrangements which normally interpose with trade. To that extent, the Schedule 8 arrangements in the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act are distinct and different. It is therefore important that we should have some response from the Government about how this should be taken forward.

The amendment proposed by the European Research Group and inserted into the Act is not the only story that needs to be told on this, but we may not wish to go all the way down that route, although expertise is available should we wish to do so. The Government should be very clear about how they intend to take this forward. I beg to move.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Purvis, and the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, who asked me to mention that he is unable to be here but that he continues to support the amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, introduced the amendments admirably and explained very clearly why those parts of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act which we seek to change are either unnecessary or damaging. He is absolutely right to say that the least important is probably the European Research Group amendment passed at a very late stage in the Commons, which we had no chance to intervene on effectively when it came through this House because it was a money Bill.

However, one part of it makes collection of customs duties possible only if the European Union collects customs duties and gives them to us. The original idea was that we would collect duties on behalf of the European Union; this was an essential part of the—now lost in the mists of time and buried deep under the soil—Chequers plan. The European Research Group amendment, frankly, neutered the Chequers plan, but as the European Union was never going to accept it anyway and made it clear at Salzburg and later that it would not accept it, there seems no point leaving it on the statute book.

The last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, relating to Amendment 80 about VAT is actually extremely important. Anyone who seriously believes that preventing the British Government maintaining a VAT union, if you would like to call it that—a system that enables trade across borders between us and the European Union without the need for extremely elaborate VAT calculations, inspections, payments and so on—and doing away with that which exists now and going back to where we were before that existed will not put a huge amount of friction on our trade simply does not understand the realities. The VAT aspect is just as important as the tariff aspect and is separate from it. Unfortunately, the European Research Group—in its usual extraordinarily constructive way—has managed to insert something here that would be really damaging to our interests if it is sustained when we go into negotiations with the European Union about future trade arrangements. The only sensible thing to do—I hope the Government will give careful thought to this—is to get rid of this now and take it out of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act.

We cannot be certain now what the Government and the European Union will do when negotiating our future trade arrangements. The Government are quite right to say they cannot guarantee how that will go. But they can remove this great ball and chain around their ankle, put there by the European Research Group, which would be really damaging to us if it ever came to be a central part of our future trade relationship. To say that relationship will be frictionless if the VAT aspect is not dealt with is just a bad joke, frankly, if you have to have VAT inspections, payments and all that sort of thing on goods that are passing. After all, the VAT levels are different in every member state, and the current system enables us to live with that without slowing down or impeding trade; that would go. So I really hope the Government—if not tonight, at least before Report—could say that they will take out that amendment, which should never have been allowed in. This is the single most important amendment in this group of four.

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[Lord Bates]

I am very happy to give an undertaking to the noble Lord that I will reflect with colleagues, particularly my noble friend Lady Fairhead, on the comments made on these amendments, notwithstanding the points that I have put on the record about the Government’s position. We can return to these on Report and I will seek to give some further information in the gap in between Committee and Report. I hope, in the meantime, that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

That was an interesting and enlivening evening. I have come up with a brilliant title for my forthcoming novel—Seven Degrees of Lunacy, or could it be eight? That might be easier, although I doubt it. I have speculated at length about whether we are in Alice in Wonderland, as was suggested, but my favourite suggestion is that we are in Gormenghast, because we seem to be trapped in structures not of our own making, with a design that is not of our wish and with an outcome that is very uncertain and probably leads to madness. But enough of that.

One unifying thought was summed up neatly by the Minister in his last remarks when he said that we needed to think a little harder about what the problem is. Everyone who has spoken, other than the Minister, took the view that these issues had a common theme—the reasons may be different but the theme is that they all have the potential to derail us later down the track. The Government should think about that issue rather than the particularities of these issues. If it is going to be problematic to get an agreement in both Houses on a Motion for an extension of a customs union, because of the argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, about the inherent asymmetry of one set of rules for the US and another for the EU, that may not be helpful. I do not think we are saying any more than that. There is an opportunity here to do something to ease the roadblocks that we can see down the track, whichever track we go down.

Amendment 78 was part of the Chequers arrangements but is now otiose and it is not beyond the wit of others to point out that it still exists in statute and might cause difficulty further down the line. Amendment 79, as my noble friend Lord Hain said, bears directly on the backstop. Is it really sensible to have this power hanging over us in another piece of legislation as we get to the later stages of that, if that is what is going to happen? On VAT, it is not really about the agreement that might be coming but a broader issue about VAT in general, because there might be a better way of collecting VAT that originates outside the UK. It is complicated and a short meeting might be a way to find the common ground that we want to take forward. I am grateful to the noble Lord for wading through that and having the doubtful honour of assigning his name to it in Hansard. It is useful to have it there and we will study it carefully.

I think there is time to have another look at this. Even if we disagree on some of the issues, it cannot be right for Parliament to pass legislation that it knows is not going to be of any use. I think that was the point the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, was making. If this is where we are, why do we just not do it? We could do it differently and see if we can use the time to clear it up properly. That is the way I would like to see it go forward but it is not in my hands. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 77 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I have some sympathy with my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering but for a quite different reason. As I said all those months ago at Second Reading, we need a highly professional team to look after the UK’s trade interests, but I am not convinced that we need a new authority separate from the trade department. I may be out of date, but my recollection is that the work in Brussels is done by the Directorate-General for Trade, not by a special agency—and it seems to get along very well, as we keep hearing.

I might not be able to convince my noble friend the Minister, but I emphasise that the proposed body must be of a very special type. The agency, if we must have it, should be run by people who are independent-minded with Civil Service values, not representatives of any particular stakeholder sector. Such people must be able to stand up to the vested interests who will approach them in the way that they approach Brussels under the current arrangements. I remember lobbying DG Trade on bra quotas in Brussels. I have to say that I was one of many very fluent stakeholders interested in the cargos that were sitting on the sea and not arriving in the shops in Britain.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, we are dealing with a clause stand part amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. But she and the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, have raised a number of points that actually come in the next group. I wonder if for the convenience of the House we should merge these groups and hear now the speech by my noble friend Lord McNicol, which I have had the privilege of seeing. It covers much the same ground as that covered by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, will probably come in on the ceramics aspects. It might be easier to finish this group together, so I suggest that my noble friend Lord McNicol speaks next.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

I am grateful to the noble Lord and will be content as long as my noble friend the Minister can answer my specific questions. My only concern is that they do not get lost in the general wash of the next grouping, as they are very specific.

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[Baroness Fairhead]

I confess that I am unaware of the protocol in this regard. It is a ways and supplies Act and was deemed by the Speaker to be such, but I will leave that point to those who are more au fait with protocol.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am not sure that this will help very much, but a negative procedure is a negative procedure. It can be questioned, but the way to do so is by tabling an amendment within the requisite period after the order has been laid that would be fatal to it. That is normally described as the nuclear option, which suggests that it does not happen very often—in fact, it has happened only once in the past five years, I think; and we on this side of the House are certainly chary about doing it. The affirmative procedure is actually not that much more effective: you still need the nuclear option, but at least there is a requirement on the Government to bring it to the House, so it will be debated, irrespective of their wishes.

[Baroness Fairhead]

I thank the noble Lord for that clarification.

My noble friend also raised the economic interest and public interest tests and how they would be interpreted by the courts. The economic interest test will be based on the list of economic criteria set out in the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act—I think I will call it the TCBTA for brevity. The TRA must take all of those into account, and so must the courts. With regard to the public interest, as part of the final decision-making, the Secretary of State will have an opportunity to intervene where there are circumstances in which the imposition of trade remedy measures are not, in his or her view, in the public interest. This could include national security considerations, for instance, but other examples may arise in individual cases, so it is important that the Secretary of State has a degree of discretion in this area such that all wider public interest considerations are taken into account. The ability of Ministers to undertake a final sense check in this way is a common feature in many comparable regimes, such as Australia and Canada.

Stakeholders have expressed their support for the establishment of the TRA. The CBI said that it strongly supported the initiative to set it up, and the British Ceramic Confederation called for the Government to prioritise the TRA to ensure that it will be fully operational by the March 2019 deadline, and this must include appointing the board.

The final area raised by my noble friend was about whether poor social and environmental standards would be taken into account. We recognise that the EU has recently introduced reform to take poor social and environmental standards into account. The UK plays an active role in upholding labour and environmental standards across the world both as a member of the ILO and by actively promoting human rights. However, our view is that trade remedy cases are not an appropriate vehicle for such issues, and these factors are not referred to in the WTO. We want to ensure that economic growth, development and environmental protection go hand in hand. We are exploring all options in the design of future plurilateral and bilateral trade and investment agreements, including with regard to human rights and environmental and labour protections. In practice, any cost advantages enjoyed by an exporting country as a result of low labour or environmental standards or costs will be reflected in its export prices and hence will already be taken into account when calculating the injury margin.

I turn now to Amendment 82, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and Amendment 83, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. I assure the Committee that Clause 10(1)(b) already allows the Secretary of State to seek,

“advice, support and assistance … in connection with the … functions of the Secretary of State relating to trade”.

This could include the conduct of trade within a customs union and the impact of third-country trade remedy measures on UK consumers. Were we to accept this amendment, it could undermine the intended non-exhaustive nature of the current drafting and potentially make it less effective.

On Amendment 84, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, we appreciate the need for the TRA’s activities to be transparent. Paragraph 31 of Schedule 4 already requires the TRA to report annually on the exercise of its functions. We would therefore expect the TRA to record any requests from the Secretary of State for advice, support and assistance in its annual report. This is because this would be considered part of the TRA’s statutory functions. We therefore do not feel that this amendment is required.

Turning to Amendments 101A and 103B, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, whom I met last week, I confirm that we are committed to supporting UK manufacturers and producers. That is why we have engaged so extensively with industry during the establishment of the TRA. However, we do not believe that representatives of any specific organisation should be on the TRA board. It is vital that it is, and is seen to be, wholly impartial, and for the membership to be based on securing the right blend of skills and expertise. That said, I assure the Committee that the TRA chair job description makes it clear that they will be expected to maintain effective relationships with stakeholders—including manufacturers, trade unions and the devolved Administrations—and to incorporate their perspective into board discussions where appropriate. We will also ensure that the appropriate terms on working with stakeholders are included in the terms of the TRA chair’s contract. Some of the TRA’s wider senior leadership, including its non-executives, may have experience in a particular sector, devolved nation or region. However, that alone must not be why they were chosen. The noble Baroness, Lady Brown, also asked whether we could have specific representatives. We believe that could possibly undermine the TRA’s independence and impartiality, and we want to make sure that the TRA’s expertise is complete by allowing the board members to be appointed not on the basis of where they are from but because they have the right skills and expertise for the blend of skills required on the TRA.

On Amendment 102, I assure the Committee that we are committed to ensuring the independence, impartiality and expertise of the board. That is why the Secretary of State has requested that the Commissioner for Public Appointments regulates all public appointments to the TRA.

My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe asked why we were setting up a new body rather than just exercising the function within government. I agree entirely that the important thing is that the board has to be independently minded. Decisions on these cases can have a profound impact on the markets. That is why we need an objective and independent investigation process that businesses can trust. The TRA will be responsible for carrying out detailed technical investigations and delivering impartial recommendations on trade remedies to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State will then be responsible for making a final determination on whether to accept or reject recommendations to impose measures.

We have also been asked—again, by my noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lord Lansley—why we have not established the TRA as an executive agency. We looked at best-practice comparable agencies across the world, and we are trying to ensure the right balance between independent, impartial, objective investigations that our businesses and trading partners can trust and accountability. That is the critical thing that we looked at.

The Commissioner for Public Appointments will be responsible for providing independent assurance that the Secretary of State follows the Governance Code on Public Appointments when appointing TRA non-executives. He or she will be required to comply with the governance code, which outlines rules around term lengths and renewing the appointments of non-executive members. Executive members will be TRA public servant staff, whose recruitment will be made in compliance with the usual public sector rules. The governance code makes it clear that:

“The ultimate responsibility for appointments … rests with Ministers”.


It states that there is an important role for Parliament in ensuring Ministers are held,

“accountable … for their decisions and actions”.

However, this scrutiny should not extend to approving or vetoing their appointments. This would be an expansion of standard Select Committee powers.

Amendment 103, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, concerns maintaining safety and public confidence in the food we eat. She is not here, so all I can do is confirm that this Government will remain committed to environmental protection standards once we have left the EU.

Amendments 103A and 107A were tabled by my noble friend Lord Lansley. I reassure noble Lords that this power is intended simply as an operational contingency measure in the TRA. As such, it can be used only before the first chair has been appointed. My noble friend and other noble Lords asked whether that still makes sense given we now have a chair-designate. I will definitely reflect on that, because it is a good point. On appointing the chair, as I said, the chief executive will be a public servant and, as my noble friend Lord Lansley agreed, it would not be appropriate for a Select Committee to be involved in their recruitment. I assure the Committee that the chief executive-designate has been recruited on merit following a fair and open competition, in line with the Civil Service Commission Recruitment Principles. All future TRA chief executives will be appointed on the same principles.

My noble friend Lord Lansley and the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, asked whether the ITC should conduct pre-appointment scrutiny. It is the view of officials in the department that the TRA chair role does not meet the Cabinet Office’s criteria for determining whether public appointments should be subject to Select Committee pre-appointment scrutiny. However, we are committed to ensuring that appointments are conducted in the right way, consistent with standard practice across government. The governance code states:

“Ministers when making appointments should act solely in terms of the public interest”,


and, likewise:

“All public appointments should be governed by the principle of appointment on merit”.


We therefore feel that there is already sufficient oversight and scrutiny of that process in place.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I will intervene before the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, does—I am sure he was just about to. I do not want to extend this, but the noble Baroness has just spent slightly longer than three or four minutes playing up how important this role is and how crucial the new body will be to the future of our trading policy. She explained, in some detail, the difficult position, the reason it is independent and everything else. She cannot also then argue that it does not fulfil the very clear lines given by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, on the important need for independence and for it to be seen to have the trust of all concerned, including Parliament. Will she take that back?

[Baroness Fairhead]

I am happy to take that back. I have heard the point. I asked whether there was a practice and was advised that this was the view we had arrived at, but I will certainly reflect on what the noble Lord said and take it back for further consideration.

On Amendment 104, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, it is important that the Secretary of State has the ability to ensure that the TRA has the right leadership in place. Again, I reassure the noble Lord that the practices and procedures will be followed.

My noble friend Lord Lansley speculated on whether we could use an existing arm’s-length body rather than create a new one. There are two reasons why we believe we need to create a new non-departmental public body. First, no existing NDPB possesses the required pool of talent and expertise, or, secondly, offers the right balance of independence and ministerial oversight, to deliver the trade remedies framework as set out in the TCBT Act. I can confirm that we reached that decision following a thorough review of the arm’s-length bodies landscape.

Amendments 105 and 106 refer to the Secretary of State, rather than the chair, appointing executive members of the TRA board, and would therefore expand the Secretary of State’s appointment powers. We believe that might undermine the TRA’s independence. It would also be undesirable to include a statutory requirement to have regard to this set of criteria, as it might be unnecessarily restrictive. My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe has great expertise in this area. As she knows, it is important to have the right skills and the right blend on a board. For example, it may be important for some executive members to have HR or finance experience to ensure the TRA’s smooth operation. This would be a decision for the TRA chair.

Turning to Amendment 107, under paragraphs 9 and 10 of Schedule 4, the TRA chair is able to remove an executive member of the TRA board, and the Secretary of State a non-executive member, if they consider that person,

“unable or unfit to carry out the functions of the office”.

This already allows the TRA chair and the Secretary of State to determine whether to remove board members in the event that they become insolvent, receive a criminal conviction or are otherwise deemed unsuitable. We therefore do not believe that this amendment is necessary. In addition, all members of the TRA will be required to comply with the Cabinet Office’s Code of Conduct for Board Members of Public Bodies, which sets out the seven principles of public life that should govern the behaviour of public officeholders.

Turning to Amendment 108, let me assure noble Lords that the TRA will be required to follow the relevant provisions in Managing Public Money, which sets out that arm’s-length bodies must maintain a register of gifts. We would also expect the TRA to record in its annual report any gifts it receives.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for tabling Amendment 109. We welcome the devolved Administrations’ interest in the TRA and understand the need to ensure that they are able to engage with it in the right way. I can confirm that the Secretary of State has committed to sharing the TRA’s annual report with the devolved Administrations once he has received it. I can also confirm that we have been in contact with, and will shortly be writing to, the devolved Administrations setting out further commitments.

On Amendment 110, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, there are certain situations where the Secretary of State will need to issue guidance to the TRA. That is why it would not be appropriate to set out certain detail in legislation. Issuing guidance instead of legislation would give the TRA the operational flexibility it needs to be able to decide how to deal with matters on a case-by-case basis. However, to protect the TRA’s independence, and to ensure that this power is used only in appropriate circumstances, we have placed clear statutory restrictions on the Secretary of State’s ability to issue that guidance.

I am aware that I possibly have not fully answered the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Brown of Cambridge. We recognise the critical role played by producers and manufacturers: that is exactly why we have put a system in place and engaged extensively. We look forward to continuing to do so.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh suggested that it was not adequate that the Secretary of State was required only to have regard to the independence, impartiality and expertise of the TRA. The imposition of a duty on the Secretary of State is a common approach and can be found in other relevant legislation. For example, the Higher Education and Research Act 2017 requires the Secretary of State to have regard to the need to protect the institutional autonomy of English higher education providers when issuing guidance to the Office for Students. These are statutory requirements and cannot be ignored.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

85: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause—
“Appeals against decisions by the TRA and Secretary of State
(1) This section applies to the following decisions—(a) a decision by the TRA under provision made by or under Schedule 4 to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018,(b) a decision by the Secretary of State under provision made by or under Schedule 4 to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018.(2) A person affected by a decision to which this section applies may appeal against it to the Upper Tribunal.(3) The means of making an appeal is by sending the Tribunal a notice of appeal in accordance with Tribunal rules.(4) The notice of appeal must be sent within the period specified, in relation to the decision appealed against, in those rules.(5) The notice of appeal must set out—(a) the provision under which the decision appealed against was taken; and(b) the grounds of appeal.(6) The grounds of appeal must be set out in sufficient detail to indicate—(a) to what extent (if any) the appellant contends that the decision appealed against was based on an error of fact or was wrong in law or both; and(b) to what extent (if any) the appellant is appealing against the exercise of a discretion by the TRA, by the Secretary of State or by another person.(7) In this section references to a decision under Schedule 4 to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 includes a decision not to use an action available under the powers in that Schedule.(8) For the purposes of this section a decision to which effect is given by the exercise or performance of a power or duty conferred or imposed by or under an enactment shall be treated, except where provision is made for the making of that decision at a different time, as made at the time when the power is exercised or the duty performed.”

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

We can be relatively brief on these amendments; they are substantial in their drafting, and the points have been made so we do not need to repeat them. We have been dealing until now with the procedures and set-up of the new body. These are proposals for guidance on some of the ways in which future policy might be developed and taken forward. Having said that, Amendment 85 follows an exchange in the other place, where it was confirmed that there would be an appeals mechanism, but there is still no reference to that in the Bill, as far as I can see. This is a suggestion for a way in which the appeals mechanism—which should be there or, as agreed in principle, will be there—against decisions by the TRA and the Secretary of State might be set out. I offer it to the Government for their consideration.

[Lord Lansley]

I am not clear. Is the noble Lord’s intention behind the amendment that the Upper Tribunal would look at the merits of the decision or simply at the processes? Are we simply talking about a judicial review process?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I read that a few moments ago and now I have lost it. I think it is on the merits and on the process. To that extent, because this is a probing amendment, I will not push this too hard and it is for the Government to decide. In my limited experience in your Lordships’ House, every time that I have led on a Bill we have come up against this question of what an appeal actually means. I have detected that the Government have gradually been moving away from merits-based appeals, because they seem to take up an awful lot of time, and argue that appeals done simply on a JR basis are becoming increasingly softer-edged, rather than being simply about the process. Therefore, the two come together and the legislation has tended towards being purely on the procedural elements.

I retain the rather purer view that there should always be an appeal system in some way, in which case it should not simply be limited to the procedures because that just restarts the clock. It should also include merits. But that is a matter for the Government to consider. The question was: if, in the other place, the Secretary of State has confirmed that there would be an appeal system, what is it and can we please have it clearly explained before we get to Report?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

Has the noble Lord considered whether one could have an appeal to the courts? Of course, on the EU model that we were discussing earlier, the appeal is to the ECJ.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I will get through this very quickly and then questions can flow in. Amendment 85, which has already been accepted, therefore sets out an appeals process for the Government to respond to. Amendment 86 relates to how these are disposed of and the procedures for that. The two go together and will be difficult to separate, but again the Government must take that forward.

We have already had reference to how recommendations from the TRA for action or no action would be based on two issues—an economic interest test and a public interest test—but we do not have any definition of those. They are obviously good ideas and sensible approaches, around which decisions can be placed, but the narrow question of what they constitute and, more importantly, how they would be kept in scope with how people’s views change over time, is not dealt with in the Bill. Therefore, Amendment 87, which deals with the public interest test, and Amendment 88, which deals with the economic interest test, set out not so much the detail of what they consist of but the process under which they might be organised.

[Lord Lansley]

I agree that the public interest test is not defined anywhere, but is the economic interest test not defined in paragraph 23 of Schedule 5 to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act?

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his interventions, which are always helpful, but I was going on to say that the economic interest test is different from the public interest test because some aspects of it are fleshed out. But the intention of Amendment 88 is to extend that slightly to ensure that two things happen. The first is that there should be a consultation about what the economic interest test is among those whose interests might be affected by it. Those involved in,

“employment, economic health and prosperity, and productivity”,

which includes trade unions, businesses and consumers, should be consulted on how one constitutes the economic test.

Secondly, it is important that the test must reach not just for a national economic view but down to a regional, or even sub-regional, point of view. The suggestion would be for the devolved Administrations and for the various regions of England to be parts of a group that could respond on things. Clearly, an economic test dealing with a small aspect of the ceramics industry based in a particular area will be different from one dealing with a major national employment issue.

Again, these amendments are not meant to be accepted as written, but they are probing suggestions to get the Government to flesh out in more detail their thinking behind this.

We always talk about what is in the public interest but never define what that means. I am not trying to define it. I am saying that it would be useful to have a process under which, from time to time, a Secretary of State who wished to employ that as part of the process for the TRA had to consult and then come forward with proposals through Parliament for what that constituted. That is what these amendments are all about.

Finally, Amendment 89 in my name suggests that TRA investigations can be considered complete only when they involve the devolved Administrations and the devolved authorities. I hope that will also commend itself to the Government. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am very grateful to the Minister for that very full response. I think she covered most of the points that I raised. I am very happy to read Hansard but I am sure I will be satisfied when it comes to it.

The only issue that I would like to leave with her and her team is that she said, with particular reference to the operation of the public interest test and the economic interest test, that if they were not working they would be changed. Obviously learning from experience must be right, but my question is: are there powers in the existing draft legislation to allow that? If not, would it not be sensible to take them at this stage? We would be happy to co-operate on that in those circumstances. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 85 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

98: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause—
“Conditions of commencement
The provisions in Parts 1 to 3 of this Act may only come into force if—(a) a withdrawal agreement and a framework for the future relationship have been approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown for the purposes of section 13(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, or(b) the House of Commons has passed a motion “That this House approves of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union without a withdrawal agreement and a framework for the future relationship”.”

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

By this stage of the proceedings the Minister is usually tearing up her notes and packing her bag while the team are leaving the Box, and the Committee is allowed to descend into a sort of torpidity at the end of a long and heavy day—day four, in this case—while we heave a sigh of relief. However, I have always wanted to table an amendment about the commencement of a Bill because it is something that we always forget to look at.

I was mulling this over a few weeks ago and thinking about what aspects of commencement one could look at. It is all very straightforward, although Clause 7(1) has a strange thing where it says:

“Regulations under section 1(1) or 2(1) may … make transitional, transitory or saving provision”.


I was wondering what on earth they were and thinking about a suitable probing amendment when I happened to run into the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who said, “I’ve been thinking about commencement and we ought to do something about it”. Out of that we hatched this wonderful amendment, which is the last one that we are going to move tonight, and I hope the Committee will accept it as it stands. It provides a sensible and clear exposition about what position Ministers should be in before they begin to implement these procedures. It is very simple, inserting a new clause further to Clause 15(2), which says that the powers that would otherwise,

“come into force on such day as a Minister of the Crown may by regulations made by statutory instrument appoint; and different days may be appointed for different purposes”,

Those are two quite clear conditions that have to be met. I beg to move.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I am happy to contribute to the successful realisation of the noble Lord’s ambition to have an amendment on commencement.

I want to make two final comments because I know the Committee has been working hard in offering scrutiny to the Bill, but before I do so I wish to thank the Ministers, and indeed the whole team, who have tried to answer on what was on some occasions an impossible situation. Earlier the noble Lord, Lord Bates, aptly commented on how fast things have been moving, and I think the Ministers have had a degree of sympathy from the Committee. However, this is serious. As the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, said, businesses need urgency as they operate. They need urgency in their day-to-day practices but also when it comes to knowing what the Government’s position is.

In advance of the next stage, if there is one, it is helpful that all the usual channels are here. I do not think the Committee needs any reminding of the decision of this House, very clearly stated, that greater information is needed on both the Government’s policy and intentions on how it sees trade agreements being put in place, as well as the relationship with the devolved Administrations. If that is not forthcoming, the House has sent a clear signal that there will not be a Report stage. However, on the basis that there will be, the information that is needed on the current position on the intended trade agreements needs to be forthcoming. There also needs to be clarity on—if we are going to be crashing out on WTO rules—the position of operating on non-certified WTO rules.

The relationship with the devolved Administrations, while a little clearer, needs more fleshing out. This is not just about constitutional courtesies with the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments and Northern Ireland authorities. Trade agreements could disproportionately affect parts of the United Kingdom, which will affect livelihoods and public services in those areas. They need to be not just consulted, but involved. Contrary to the Government simply wanting continuity agreements for trading relationships, we also want to see the rolling over of the same amount of parliamentary scrutiny that the European Parliament would afford trade agreements, which this Parliament will be denied unless this Bill is amended.

Finally, we need to be looking forward to the future. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and others, have made very constructive contributions. If we are to have a customs arrangement—which, if it covers the majority of our trade with our biggest market, will be a customs union—then the clarity about how that will be conducted will be important. While we are at the end of the Committee stage, I hope that the Minister has received strong signals that there are still questions that need to be answered. Those answers need to be forthcoming before this House will consider the Report stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Fairhead]

My Lords, I am delighted to allow the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, to realise his ambition, but I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, that this is important. Therefore, no torpidity is allowed, even at this late stage.

As this is the last group of amendments, I hope the Committee will indulge me with a short concluding comment, allowing me to record my appreciation to noble Lords who have taken part in all the debates. The quality and constructive nature of the engagement has been incredibly valuable—not just in the Chamber, but outside in meetings. I particularly thank the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson, Lord McNicol and Lord Purvis. On a personal level, I also thank the Bill team for some tremendous work, and my valiant and true noble friends Lord Bates and Lord Younger.

The Committee has provided us with a valuable opportunity to probe the detail of the Bill. It has also allowed all sides to listen to other noble Lords’ sometimes conflicting points of view. We now have some time in which to reflect on the views we have heard in these debates. We shall be using that time carefully, and I look forward to debating the Bill further on Report.

Before addressing the specifics of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, it is important to outline the Government’s approach to leaving the European Union in the light of recent events in the other place. As this House is aware, the other place rejected the proposed withdrawal agreement and political declaration, with just 202 MPs voting in favour. However, following the debate last week, a majority of MPs have now said they would support a deal with changes to the backstop.

Combined with measures to address concerns over Parliament’s role in the negotiation of the future relationships and commitments on workers’ rights, the Government are now confident that there is a route that can secure a majority in Parliament for leaving the EU with a deal. The Government will now take this mandate forward and seek to obtain legally binding changes to the withdrawal agreement that deal with concerns on the backstop, while guaranteeing no return to a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

As the Prime Minister said, we acknowledge that there is limited appetite for change in the EU, and negotiating it will not be easy. However, in contrast to a fortnight ago, Parliament has made it clear what it needs to approve the withdrawal agreement. Tuesday’s vote shows that Parliament does not want to leave the EU without a deal, and the Government are therefore working hard to achieve one. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, eloquently talked of the importance of the EU trade deal.

However, simply opposing no deal is not enough to stop it, and the Government must now redouble its efforts to get a deal that Parliament can support. The Prime Minister has agreed to discuss the best way the Government can deliver what I would call the Spelman amendment.

The amendment to the Trade Bill here today would not prevent a no deal. The only ways to prevent a no-deal outcome are either with a deal or by revoking or extending Article 50, which is not government policy. The Trade Bill cannot therefore be used as a sort of proxy to prevent the UK leaving the EU without a deal. This amendment, or other tweaks, will not stop a no deal, but will simply increase the risks of a worse outcome in a no-deal scenario. We are clear that the very best way to leave the EU is with a deal and an implementation period, and that is absolutely the aim of this Government.

I also repeat that, although leaving with a deal which ensures an implementation period is our clear aim, any responsible Government must also develop contingency measures in case of no deal.

I turn to Amendment 98, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson, Lord Hannay and Lord Purvis, and my noble friend Lady Altmann. I have welcomed the debate and your Lordships’ scrutiny of the Bill, which really underlines the value of this House. The challenge has been constructive, extremely helpful and underpinned by the genuine knowledge of so many noble Lords. The Government will reflect carefully on the points; we have committed to come back with proposals and will do so before Report. Having gone through Committee, I hope the whole Committee will acknowledge the importance of the provisions in the Trade Bill, and the need for any responsible Government to bring forward these provisions whether or not there is a deal with the EU.

As the Committee will be aware, the Trade Bill covers four important and essential areas to ensure continuity for consumers, businesses and our international trading partners. The purpose, as we said—I was trying to keep the number of repetitions low—is continuity. The Bill provides: powers needed for the UK to implement the GPA, maintaining the access of UK companies to some £1.3 trillion-worth of business, and to ensure that we get the best deal for taxpayers; powers to enable the UK to transition trade agreements that currently exist between the EU and other countries, and to which we are currently a signatory via our membership of the EU to prevent any disruption to UK businesses or our consumers; critical powers to establish a new UK Trade Remedies Authority to provide that critical safety net to protect domestic industries from unfair practices; and powers to collect and share data on trade. This will help us build a richer picture of UK trading patterns to help the Government identify new opportunities, and provide data to support TRA investigations. I hope the Committee will recognise that these are sensible measures and that any reasonable Government would be legislating in these areas in the light of our exit from the EU.

Last week’s vote in the other place shows us that Parliament does not want to leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement and future framework. Although I recognise the position of many in this House is not to leave without a deal, as I said at the start, this mandate from Parliament is not enough on its own to stop no deal. That is why the Government will now redouble their efforts to get a deal that Parliament can support. It is for those reasons that I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am grateful to the Minister for her kind words and the way in which she turned down our hope of a late but well-deserved goal. I always say to my colleagues that they must stop using sporting metaphors because they do not work for half the population of the House but here I am, about to refer to the second half. I am sorry about that.

In her thanks, the Minister should have also recognised herself; I will do it for her because I am sure she is too embarrassed to do it. It is almost impossible to believe that this is the Minister’s first Bill. She has handled us with considerable assurance and a wonderful sense of calm. Every time she rises it is a great balm to those who might otherwise want to cause trouble and do terrible things in a House which is noted for its civility and gentility. I do not know what the word is for sororal approaches—I will probably get in trouble for that as well. It has been a very good experience so far; we look forward to the second half—sorry about that. We think we can work together and there are things here we can work together on, and we should try to hammer out such agreements that we have. There may be differences—quite principled ones which we need to address—but I do not think we should worry about that; the House should be asked for its views on a number of points that we have covered in Committee. It has been a good experience and I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 98 withdrawn.

Trade Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th January 2019 Lords Chamber

I have one other question for the Minister: does he also accept that we have an additional problem not referred to so far in these discussions, in relation to data adequacy? It will be necessary, as I understand it, for there to be a data adequacy agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union before we will be able to participate in any way in the various bodies referred to in these amendments. Margot James said in the other place that in the event of an agreement, it would take two years. If it was a no-deal Brexit, it would take considerably longer. If that is the case, is it the Minister’s belief that we may have a huge gap between exit day and when we can even begin to have that close working relationship with the variety of groups referred to in these amendments, and which the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and I believe is so important?

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I have to say a few words because my noble friend Lord Grantchester, who would have spoken to a couple of amendments which have not been touched on, unfortunately is unable to be with us this evening as he has a family illness which he had to attend to. I am sure your Lordships will want to send best wishes to him.

The two amendments which have not been referred to are Amendments 47 and 49. One is on time-sensitive goods and the worries here concern the arrangements, particularly around the Channel Tunnel, for goods that are required for immediate delivery. The question underlying the amendment, which the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, also put her name to, was whether the Government had any further information about developments, since if the current arrangement is not going to work, other arrangements will need to be brought into place, as time-sensitive goods are what they say on the tin.

Other noble Lords have spoken about medical isotopes. On behalf of my noble friend Lord Grantchester, I wanted to mention the time-sensitivity of these, not only in the general sense but particularly with air travel, which is often used to transport them. We have experience of problems which have occurred, particularly in Northern Ireland, because the route for radioisotopes required in Northern Ireland is through Coventry Airport, and even under existing arrangements, we have had delays which caused problems for patients, including the cancellation of treatments. Again, any comments from the Minister would be helpful.

On Amendment 49, the pet travel scheme has raised interest among those who travel to Europe with pets, particularly dogs and ferrets, which are the two main groups carried. The existing scheme is thought not to be very effective, and there is a chance to revisit it when it collapses after Brexit. Are Ministers aware that the BVA has set out 16 recommendations on changes to pet travel rules after Brexit? Many of these are sensible and needed, and this would be an opportunity to give the Committee an update on where they are on this matter.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred to the pet travel scheme. The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, started the debate by talking about transport. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, referred to arrangements for UK-EU chemicals through REACH in particular. My noble friends Lady McIntosh and Lady Hooper talked about legal services. My noble friend Lord Risby talked about horseracing and the tripartite agreement. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about transport. My noble friend Lord Lansley talked about authorised economic operators. My noble friend Lord Trenchard talked about horseracing and financial services. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, focused very much on financial services. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, talked about telecoms and broadcasting.

That is a flavour of the catch-all that we have here, with 17 amendments. I am looking at the representatives of the usual channels: I am not sure how the grouping of these amendments happened, but they cover a very wide range of agreements. We have heard 12 excellent speakers. They have ranged extensively and generated some 24 questions, to which it falls to me to respond. I am conscious of the time. I will bring my best endeavours to this, but I have the feeling that rather a lengthy letter will be winding its way to noble Lords.

Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 4th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak very briefly to reinforce the point made by a number of the speakers on all sides of the House, particularly by my noble friends Lord Browne and Lord Whitty: that we share the view of many people that this Bill is inexplicably linked to the Trade Bill. As I will be leading for the Opposition on that Bill, I thought I would dwell on a couple of the points that link the two Bills, in a way that I hope will be helpful to the future debate.

Having said that, it is important to recognise that the Bill as drafted is, in the narrow sense, a supply Bill—it undeniably deals with taxation issues and tariff arrangements—but it lacks a wider context in which these things can be properly assessed. Scrutiny would have been one way forward on that, but I think there will be room within the Trade Bill to pick up on some of the points made today. I give notice to the Government that, given that the Trade Remedies Authority is dealt with in the Trade Bill, it would seem possible to amend that Bill and thereby change what is currently going through in the customs Bill before us.

This has been a good debate, which has exposed many issues that will need to be returned to during the Trade Bill debate or elsewhere. Like many others, I do not think there is much point in repeating those issues here. For me, what still needs to be addressed, perhaps during that Bill’s Second Reading next week, is: what exactly constitutes a trade Bill appropriate for an independent United Kingdom? I say this not in any political sense but because there has been an absence of debate and discussion on this throughout the country since we lost direct responsibility for it in 1972. During that period, two big things have happened.

First, people have become more interested in trade as a social policy issue—something that needs to be looked at and interrogated more directly than it currently is. Within that, there needs to be further consideration of how to get away from understanding trade in terms of a physical movement of goods. Clearly, services are heavily involved and need their own consideration, but opportunities are now rare to purchase goods without having to consider the services that relate to them. However, it is not restricted to that. As the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, said, we have to think carefully now about other barriers to trade. Whether they are regulatory or done to restrict access or use, all these things have an impact on trade which will not be dealt with if we focus only on the tariffs to be charged, now or on behalf of others, then collected and passed on.

Secondly, we have to look at trade policy as decisions on it are taken which affect other aspects such as employment, development impacts in third countries, impacts on the environment and human rights. These issues are much more widely discussed and debated in civic society today; many Members of the House will have been lobbied in anticipation of the Trade Bill, which will raise these issues. I am not saying that we will necessarily want to espouse all of them, as some involve rather narrow interests. Nevertheless, they raise a rather wider context in which we have to debate our trade policy and we must not ignore them.

On the narrow point of the role and function of the Trade Remedies Authority, there will be a series of debates on amendments which will be brought forward. They will look at its independence and explore what these two new concepts of public interest and economic interest will be in practice because without understanding those, it is not possible to understand how decisions will be taken by that body and what impact they will have on our trade activities.

We have touched in a number of ways on the role of the devolved Administrations in trade policy. If that is to be brought back from Brussels and given to the devolved Administrations, it must follow that structural changes will be needed in how we organise matters relating to trade policy to accommodate their views and aspirations, and the changes that they would like to see. At the moment, the Board of Trade is a possible way in which to do that but there are other issues, which I know the Government are thinking about. We will need to have more detail about committee structures in Parliament and on whether there will be something jointly between the two Houses, or perhaps a role for the House of Lords to develop its expertise, pursuant to the loss of work that will come through for the European Union committees. It could have a role in sectoral issues and of course in geographical issues, which will need to be brought forward. In any case, if we are to at least emulate what is happening in Europe on trade policy at the moment, we will need to find ways of bringing into the process the civic society elements which are currently excluded from discussions on trade policy in the UK. A role must be found for them: whether that is through some form of joint committee, or a process which will allow those who have views to take them forward in some form of debate or discussion, has yet to be decided.

Looking back on the history of this Bill, we are perhaps omitting from our debate today the fact that it had to be stopped earlier in the process because it was felt that it would not be able to deal with the issues that had been raised. It is a mystery to me why the Government decided that they were in a position to get the Bill through and that there would be some value in that result. Perhaps they might still consider whether there would be some benefit if this whole Bill were subsumed into the Trade Bill, and consideration given in the round as we go forward. It may be too late to stop the machine in its tracks—I do not look hopefully at the Minister for that—but it would be wrong to make a decision about a Bill dealing with a narrow issue when there is the prospect of a wider debate and discussion on the Trade Bill, which is coming down the track.

LGBT Action Plan: Gender Recognition

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I join others who thanked the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for securing this debate, and for the interesting way in which he introduced it. I am not sure that Hansard will be able to pay due credit to the flourish with which he unveiled the colours behind his jacket, but I hope that some means will be found of expressing it. Without the props, which we are not really supposed to have, it would have lacked a little. It was an important contribution to the debate, and the noble Lord made some very sensible points. We should also thank others who have spoken, including my noble friend Lord Cashman and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, who dealt with their personal experiences and brought in their wider experience on this issue.

I want to focus on the references in the excellent report to non-binary people and to intersex, which is an area I have become interested in because I myself suffer from a condition called hypospadias. I have not often talked about it because it leaves strong psychological burdens which I struggle with, even today. Having got that out of the way, I did manage to set up a small charity which reached out to those in our society who have the hypospadias problem. It brought me into contact with other organisations mainly to do with hypospadias but also involved in campaigning around intersex and non-binary issues.

It came across strongly to me that the two main concerns were not just the recognition of gender identity, although that was mentioned very strongly by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. It is a very important issue to which I want to come back. As he said, and others have mentioned in other debates, there is extraordinarily aggressive treatment meted out to young people and children who are too young to be aware of what is happening to them. There are those who have a vision about a society that is strongly bi-gendered—in other words, the male and female sides are easily identified both in terms of their physical look and subsequently in the way in which they are brought up. This is something that has to stop and I hope that, when the report is finally received, we can look forward to some legislation because it is a very important issue.

In working on my charity, and in helping those who suffer from hypospadias, I have come across areas where activity has been followed by legislation. I draw attention in particular to a recent law in Malta which deals with gender identity, gender expression and sex characteristics. It is a model that could be translated easily into British law, and I recommend it to the Minister as an issue that she might pick up when it is right to do so. The Maltese Act deals with and identifies gender expression and gender identity. It talks about gender marking and lived gender, which are all issues that those with problems of gender expression and sex segregation are familiar with. It is important to see these things in statute, and I recommend that to the Minister.

The Act also talks about sexual characteristics, often used as a test or diagnostic, leading to further medical treatment, which is appalling and must be stopped. It deals with the way in which everybody in Malta, perhaps since the passing of the Act, now has the right of recognition of their gender identity. By that it means a person’s internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth, including the personal sense of the body—of appearance, functions, medical, surgical or other means. These issues are so important, and it would be wonderful to see them in our own statute book.

The question of a change of gender identity is raised in the Act. Those who have concerns about how minors are treated are dealt with. Towards the end, it deals very importantly with the need to protect bodily integrity and physical autonomy, issues that I think have been left too long out of the scope of our legal processes. I just read this particular section:

“It shall be unlawful for medical practitioners or other professionals to conduct any sex assignment treatment and/or surgical intervention on the sex characteristics of a minor which treatment and/or intervention can be deferred until the person to be treated can provide informed consent”.


This is such an important passage, which raises matters such as other interventions in children. It should be picked up and used in any future discussions in this area.

I would hope that the report that will be generated by the GEO, which I welcome, will improve the understanding that we all should have about the issues facing non-binary people and the issues facing people who are intersex. But that in itself will not be sufficient, and I call for action.

Household Debt

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans on the first of the double header that he has this week. He has been very successful and he must tell us how that is done. It would be much easier if one could get more opportunities to raise issues under the QSD heading. I think that he will be happy with the speeches in the debate so far, which have been wide-ranging and covered a lot of ground. They have picked up on the points that he outlined and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Of course, this is a tragic situation. The current levels of household debt are extraordinary and will be a real problem in the future. Moreover, the human cost, which everyone has mentioned, is important. Anyone who, like me, has listened in at the sharp end to phone calls from the Money Advice Trust, Christians Against Poverty or StepChange, of which I am the former chairman, will have heard the agony of people who are struggling with debt that they want to clear but simply lack any ability to do so. It is a really awful situation.

What do we do about it? I have five things that I want the Government to do: first, we have to look at pay. If there is not more money circulating in the economy, there will not be the resources to pay back the debts that are necessary for people to enjoy the lives that they want. The living wage would be a start, but there is also training to get people better jobs, along with better management of those jobs. Secondly, affordable credit needs to be made much more widely available. The problem is that people are squeezed to get the credit they want and have to pay far too much for it. It is too easy to borrow, as has been said, but we should be thinking about how to ban the usurious rates that are used. We still have problems with payday loans and we still have problems getting information around, so we need real-time credit sharing information. Consumers must also be treated more fairly by the regulator concerned. The regulator must stop being dominated by the fair markets and look at what consumer needs are. They do not require high-end usurious products.

The information that is available is one thing, but the financial products people need must also be made available on a fairer and more equitable basis. I take as an example insurance. Of course there is compulsory insurance, but there is also the discretionary kind, in particular household contents insurance. Would it not be fantastic if people could have access to what they actually need, but 39% of UK adults do not have household contents insurance, a figure that rises to more than 72% for those in rented accommodation? That is 10.5 million people without the basic cover required if they suffer a fire or are burgled. They cannot afford it. I do not have to remind the party opposite that it was people like Churchill who saw this early, going back almost 100 years. He wrote:

“If I had my way, I would write the word ‘insure’ over every door of every cottage and on the blotting pad of every public person because I am convinced that for minor sacrifices, families can be secured against catastrophes which otherwise would smash them forever”.


Mr Churchill got a lot of things right, and I commend him.

We need proper debt advice and insolvency arrangements. We have talked about bailiff reform, which is also important, to which I would add the breathing space issue raised by my noble friend Lord McKenzie. That needs to come in under the Bill that is before us and I hope that will be the case. The Government need to focus on this. I noticed that in their response to the excellent report by the Select Committee of your Lordships’ House on financial exclusion, the Government repeated a lot of the problems that that committee was trying to get at. In particular there is the worry about why the Government split their responses to financial inclusion, which is run by the Treasury, from those to financial exclusion, which is run by DWP. This is not helpful and we need something done about it.

We also need to pay more attention to the paradigm under which we operate. The Minister needs to respond to some of the worries about this. The paradigm under which most people tend to operate is to try to get as much education as they can and then to borrow a loan for a house, for instance. They then repay that over the years as they get better jobs and when they are able to repay the borrowing, they eventually retire on their pensions. I do not think that paradigm works any more and I wonder what thinking the Treasury is doing about which paradigm should replace it. My children do not expect to be in jobs for the rest of their lives—they do not expect to be in careers, in the tradition that we had when we were growing up. They are very worried about how they are going to survive. The Government have a responsibility to lead on this and explain what they want people to do, so that they do not have the worry and distress that is so common and which has been exemplified by the speeches today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I appreciate the Minister giving way as this is a time-limited debate. I wonder whether we can reflect for a minute on that. We have tabled an amendment for Third Reading of the Financial Claims and Guidance Bill, which was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins. What the Minister has just said does not square with where we think we are on that issue.

[Lord Bates]

The consultation period is ongoing now. There is a schedule coming forward for Third Reading, which will be discussed. I was outlining the call for evidence that we have had and the consultation that we will have upon it. Of course the Government will make their position clear in respect of any specific amendment that may be brought forward at Third Reading.

The Monetary Policy Committee has made its decision to raise interest rates on a broad set of economic data, working closely with the Financial Policy Committee to understand its impact on households’ balance sheets. The independent FCA is responsible for the regulations in place to protect customers in their dealings with financial services firms. They include at their heart the requirement that firms must deal fairly with customers in payment difficulties. Its rules require lenders to consider a variety of options to help a borrower cope with difficulties. The right reverend Prelate paid tribute to a number of organisations that are working in the area of debt resolution. I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, with StepChange and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, with the Money Advice Trust. I have seen the work of Christians Against Poverty. What it is doing is quite extraordinary, but more needs to be done.

The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, asked when the financial inclusion forum will be set up. The forum’s objective is to bring together Ministers in departments with a remit to promote financial inclusion, regulators, especially the FCA, and key stakeholders to address financial exclusion. The financial inclusion forum will be co-chaired by the Economic Secretary and the Minister for Pensions and Financial Exclusion. The forum will be attended by Ministers from other departments, regulators and representatives from industry and consumer groups. It will meet on a biannual basis and review recent initiatives and progress.

The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, asked how concerned the Government were about the rapid growth in consumer credit as a potential risk to the economy. The FPC’s most recent assessment of the growth in consumer credit is that it does not present a material risk to economic growth, as consumer credit represents 11% of overall household debt. But again, that is not to suggest that we do not consider that it is a significant factor. The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, also asked what the Government are doing about the high cost of credit. The Government have transformed regulation of consumer credit through the use of the Financial Conduct Authority’s review of high-cost debt. We put a cap on payday lending and the egregious interest rates that were being charged there, which has led to payday loans halving in number since it was introduced.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asked specifically about car finance. Car finance companies are required to meet the standards the FCA expects of lenders, including making affordability checks and providing adequate pre-contractual explanations to customers. The FCA’s chief executive, Andrew Bailey, who the noble Lord referred to in his speech, said that he does not see the growth in personal contract purchase finance as a problem per se, as it recognises that a car is an asset. The FCA is looking at the car finance market to assess whether consumers are at risk of harm. The FCA is focusing on four areas: affordability checks; conflicts of interest between lenders and dealers, a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy; quality of information from firms to consumers, and whether firms are adequately pricing risk.

The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, asked whether advice agencies have enough funding. We set up the Money Advice Service, which has spent £49 million, and over 440,000 free-to-client debt advice sessions have been undertaken. We are setting up a new single financial guidance body, bringing together the Money Advice Service, Pension Wise and the Pensions Advisory Service. This will be more efficient, and I think less confusing for customers, and will direct money to front-line services.

The right reverend Prelate, the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, referred to universal credit. DWP research shows that the majority of people claiming universal credit are comfortable managing their budget, and any need for financial or budgeting support is discussed at the outset. For those who cannot wait until their first payment, advances are available which provide up to 50% of a claimant’s indicative award straightaway, although I accept the point made by the noble Baroness—

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way. I gather that what is called inspiration may have arrived from the Box in response to my earlier point, and I would like to give him the opportunity to correct the record before we finish.

[Lord Bates]

I am very grateful for that. In response to the noble Lord’s earlier intervention on breathing space, the position has changed since that section of my speech was last drafted, and I will write to him—this is dynamic government, unfolding by the minute and of course responding, as always, to the reasoned arguments presented by the noble Lord.

The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, asked what we are doing to ensure that workers in the gig economy are protected from problem debt. Information, advice and guidance is available for free from the Money Advice Service, which provides specialist support for the self-employed through its funding of the Business Debtline, which supports sole traders in dealing with debts that they may incur. Around 25,000 small business owners were supported by Business Debtline last year, and 90% of those who accessed support from it stabilised or reduced their debt after its help. Again, that relates to the right reverend Prelate’s point that people out there who are facing considerable distress need to recognise that help is available and that the sooner they call on that help, the easier their problems will be to solve.

Finally, the right reverend Prelate asked whether the Government will be bringing forward legislation on a breathing space. I do not want to go over that territory again, so I will simply say that it has been a fascinating debate for all Members of the House, not least the Minister. I thank the right reverend Prelate for pursuing this matter, giving us the opportunity to debate these important issues which touch many people’s lives, and we look forward to continuing our discussion.

Financial Inclusion: New Technology

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Thursday 6th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I should declare my interest as a former chair of StepChange, the debt charity and, alongside the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, I am also a member of the Financial Inclusion Commission; I will refer to some of its recent report on this area in concluding my remarks. We are all very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, for securing this debate and leading with his chin on some of these issues. When I read the wording of the Question, I was hoping—I am sure others were as well, including the Front Bench opposite—to have a bit of a seminar on what he meant by,

“open access to payment infrastructure”,

and “distributed ledger technology”. I am sure he has the expertise hidden away and can share it with us at a moment’s notice. I am certainly still struggling, but I am sure the Minister will enlighten us to the extent he feels necessary as we move forward. It is a question that hangs over the debate, as to what exactly he would have done with that sequence.

Having said that, the noble Lord made an excellent speech, following his excellent speech yesterday. He does not need any lessons in productivity—two speeches coming from his heart, commitment, knowledge and experience, and both very well worth listening to. We are all grateful to him for that. Of course, he also brought in two blow-ins, who decided that they ought to join in the fun; I am sure they were not just sheltering in the wonderful ice-cold atmosphere here and escaping from the blazing heat outside. They asked rather good questions. The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, asked how this all fits together with social cohesion—a really sharp observation that we need to bear in mind. The young get this technology very quickly and can be brought into it in a socially cohesive and helpful way; we should think very hard about how that can work. The noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, with all the art and artifice that goes with being an experienced politician, asked the obvious question in a way that I think will cause considerable difficulty to the Minister. Of course, the answer to her question is that this is not happening yet in schools but, as she hinted, that should be where we start. I hope she will pursue that as we move this debate forward.

The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, mentioned in his substantive address the G20, which happens to be meeting this weekend, so it was an appropriate reference to make. The high-level principles it has been working on since 2010 are a substantial piece of work—I had already given notice to the Minister that I might raise this—and it is worth thinking about them, because they set the tone for this arrangement. The idea is that digital financial inclusion will benefit from an approach using fintech—we have enough evidence now to express that. We are talking about a major issue and the G20 paper echoes this in its introductory remarks. Two billion adults globally do not have access to formal financial services and are excluded from opportunities to improve their lives, but digital financial services, together with effective supervision—an important regulatory requirement—are essential to closing these gaps. Digital technologies offer affordable ways for the currently financially excluded, the majority of whom are women—an important point to make, following the preceding debate in your Lordships’ House—to save, make payments, get business loans, send remittances, buy insurance and do all such day-to-day activities around the world in a way that allows them to engage directly and reduces the poverty penalty. Importantly, by making access more democratic, the barriers to effective inclusion are also reduced, through the digital route towards the financial inclusion activity.

I would like for a moment to focus on the principles. The G20 encourages countries to provide action plans relating to their own country context and national circumstances to try to ensure that the advanced economies move together on this issue. That is obviously a necessary but not sufficient condition for this to work. But of course, the key question is: what has happened to our action plan? I hope that the Minister will be able to enlighten us, because surely if the G20 has recommended it, we will be doing it.

Some of the principles are motherhood and apple pie and I would not want to go through too much of them in detail. However, they start with the premise that without,

“coordinated, monitored, and evaluated national strategies”,

the work that needs to go into adopting a digital approach to financial inclusion will be worthless. That is worth reflecting on. There is a balance to be struck between innovation and risk. It is all very well getting carried away with bitcoin or distributed ledger technology, but if we do not understand them and the risks they raise, it will end in tears. It is important that somebody work on this—presumably the FCA, but other areas of government, which we might hear about, might deal with it.

Principle 3 talks about making sure that there is a,

“proportionate legal and regulatory framework for digital financial inclusion”.

There is a bit of a tension here which is worth exploring, albeit we cannot necessarily do it today. The basics of financial activity will always be the same. There are those who have resources and those who do not, and those who need to buy goods and services. Money or an equivalent authorisation needs to flow between those who are acquiring stuff and those who supply it, but basically the system will not change. That is the basic underlying truth, but the way it happens will be radically different. What is the role of money in this? Physical notes and coins will probably not survive the financial revolution, if it goes forward, because authorisations—provided identity is secure and other safeguards are in place—may well replace them. However, it is important that a balanced and proportionate legal and regulatory framework is at the heart of this. Again, I ask the question: is this happening and if so, when will we see evidence that the Government’s thinking is bearing fruit?

Principle 4 states that the system must be all-inclusive. There is no point trying to tackle only parts of it. It needs to include services, goods and all people. That is probably obvious but it is important to reflect on it because it implies that there has to be physical infrastructure to support that work. This Government in the last Parliament brought forward a much touted digital Bill. It contained the basics—which we support—of a universal service obligation for broadband. However, it was noticeable that in the debates and discussions we were unable to persuade the Government to set a high standard. The basic understanding is that we must have high-level, high-quality broadband. We proposed—and, indeed, got such an amendment through this House—an ambitious 2 gigabit target for the speeds that should apply to the USO. That was reduced by the Government to 30 megabits. There is no comparison between the two. If we are going to have this, it has to be done properly and well.

We sought to prioritise small and medium-sized enterprises getting early access to broadband. The Government resisted that. We suggested that all the work going forward on the new generation of broadband should start in rural areas—as is done in Germany—and then network back to the cities, on the grounds that investment is most needed where the need is greatest and the resources are smallest. However, the Government did not accept that. I ask the Government again: is it not about time to rethink this, because without a proper infrastructure and real support, we will not get to where we want to be?

Principle 5 seeks to:

“Establish Responsible Digital Financial Practices to Protect Consumers”.


That is probably self-evident.

“Digital and Financial Literacy and Awareness”,


starting in school comes under Principle 6. Principle 7 refers to the need to consider identity in the virtual space. It is far too easy to conflate this with ID cards or their equivalents, but the digital space is very different. It is populated by objects and avatars—things that one cannot imagine. It is not populated by real people, but we need to be able to identify and nail down who is carrying out these things. Not enough work is being done on that in the virtual space. And, of course, we should track what success is achieved. These are broad, high-level principles, but they set an agenda which the Government should consider seriously, as it would be to their advantage to do so. I hope we will hear from the Minister that that work has already started

I mentioned the Financial Inclusion Commission. It has produced a substantial report which has already been referred to. Large amounts of it were picked up in the ad hoc Select Committee of your Lordships’ House and I will not go further on that, other than to repeat the request to know when there will be a response to it. The report made 22 very good recommendations. One has already been implemented, as we know, but 21 remain to be implemented. There is a Bill going through the House and perhaps we should use that.

Finally, I have a suggestion for the new Financial Inclusion Minister, whose appearance in government circles is very welcome. I hope that he will be given support, as he cannot do this on his own. It is a major initiative that needs to be thought about very carefully. It will probably be difficult for him to do it independently of the Treasury, because the Treasury controls the purse strings on many of the issues that we have been talking about here.

It would be good if two things happened—one of which we mentioned yesterday, which I would like to return to. It should be part of the government response to financial inclusion to try to create a sense of engagement across Whitehall, and I hope that that will be thought of as worth while. In previous Governments, where a cross-departmental issue was difficult to land among the various departmental interests, a system of champions was devised under which a nominated Minister in each department was given responsibility to work with the lead Minister. My suggestion is to have a Cabinet committee joining those people up. The Minister will probably say that organisation of government business is way above his pay grade. I understand but I hope that he will take the message back, because it seems to me that this is another of those wicked issues which, if there is not a co-ordinated and considered approach, will wither on the vine, which seems sad.

Finally on this point, I think it would be helpful to the new Minister if there were a facility to create a group of experts involved in this work to advise him and his team from the outside. A number of groups could fulfil that role. This strategy was adopted in relation to financial inclusion in its first iteration, when a work group established by Sir Brian Pomeroy was appointed to advise the Treasury on how to implement a financial strategy. It worked very well. That has now stopped but it is something that the Minister should perhaps consider again. I hope that that will be helpful to the Minister when he responds.

Tourism: Music

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Thursday 11th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Storey, on securing this debate and thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I should declare an interest, I suppose: I am a participant in the subject of this debate since I sing in the Parliament Choir, which is well known for attracting tourists to come and listen to us. I also sing in a festival choir, which gathers for a week and sings in a glorious cathedral of the type mentioned by the right reverend Prelate. I mention this only because it also has a tourist dimension which I do not think has been widely noticed yet. There seems to be a growth in choral tourism. When we sat down on the first day to rehearse the Mozart “Requiem” we were about to deliver we were joined by three substantial Russian contraltos who told us that they spent their lives going round the globe singing in such events. They popped up everywhere and after they had sung in our event they were going to Salzburg to sing in the Mozart “Requiem” that was being performed there. There is a tourism aspect to all aspects of music.

This is my third tourism debate and I have noticed that there is a tendency among those who participate—not that I wish to decry it in any sense —to indulge in a tour d’horizon of their favourite tourist spots or, in this case, the events they have enjoyed on a trip around the UK. This debate did not disappoint. We have a glorious range of opportunities, starting in Liverpool, reaching far up to Scotland and spending quite a lot of time in East Anglia. This is all to the good. We learn a lot more about what we should be doing in this House.

Tourism is exceptionally important to the UK economy. It is the sixth largest industry, third largest export earner, and accounts for around 9% of employment if its indirect impacts are taken into account. It generates more than £3 billion in tax for HM Treasury. It is a very interesting industry because it has quite wide economic effects. It employs a lot of non-full-time workers and more women than men. The proportion of jobs in tourism is much higher in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland than it is in England and it encourages entrepreneurship as there are some 200,000 SMEs in the tourism sector, most with a very low turnover but still making a contribution.

Of course, there is a soft power dimension to this. Culture, which was defined in a recent Demos report as,

“the means we use to express ourselves through art, film, music, dance, literature and so on”,

provides a bridge between people. No less a person than the Chinese former leader Hu Jintao regretted the fact that although Chinese economic power was huge the soft cultural power still resides with Europe, in particular in Britain. It is something we have to account of and it is distinctively different from any other sector of the economy.

In the debates I mentioned, particularly those sponsored by the noble Lord, Lord Lee of Trafford, who has been a stalwart in this area, we have covered some of the problems affecting the tourism sector. As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, reminded us, there is a need for a joined-up approach in government. Tourism is exceptional in the degree to which it cuts across different policy areas, organisations, government departments and geographic areas. The industry would like to see a cross-government co-ordination group, particularly on regulation. I would be grateful if the Minister might refer to that when she sums up.

A number of noble Lords brought up the problem of air passenger duty, which needs to be addressed. The issue of visas has come up every time we have debated this subject. The UK visa regime is a major drag on in-bound tourism and it particularly affects those involved in the music industry.

There is also concern about the way promotion of tourism is going. The current Great campaign will cost about £100 million but at the same time core grant in aid funding has been reduced and it is not clear yet whether the campaign is going to achieve its very ambitious targets. I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to that.

It is believed right across the industry, and we have heard it today, that British music has the ability to help VisitBritain achieve its goal of 9 million more tourists by 2020, but the debate actually asks the Government what plans they have to support and promote the impact of music on tourism. In other words, what is the structure under which these issues will be addressed? What can the Government do to help?

The noble Lord, Lord Black, reminded us that if the Government are to will the end they must also will the means. We have heard that we need a strategy to maintain our advantage in music tourism and to support the industry that drives it. That includes, I think, the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, about the Digital Economy Act and the issue that has been raised more recently in relation to the Intellectual Property Bill about the rather damaging split between the approach being taken by the DCMS and that now being taken by BIS. Can more be done with UKTI? That is an important issue, because that aspect of support and underpinning of export potential is very important.

We need a skills and training regime that ensures that a new generation of the people who actually do the work in many music activities—the riggers, the technicians and managers, as well as, of course, musicians—are supported. What do the Government plan on that? There is also a need to access specialist finance to ensure new music-related businesses develop and flourish. We know that bank lending is down, but what about the special additional problems posed in the hit-based industries, such as music and film?

One problem at the root of some of these issues is that it is very difficult to get a proper measure for the success or otherwise of the industry. Current SIC and SOC codes, which give us the national economic picture, are totally inadequate for music, especially live music. The millions of jobs supported by live music are coded in many different ways. According to ONS data, of the 10,000 businesses represented by PRS for Music and PPL, only 14% were accurately coded by ONS in the national accounts. That is something that the Minister should respond to when she sums up.

I took from today’s discussion a theme that we are good at music and also a good tourist destination but that we could do better. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say to inspire us about that.

Transport: HS2

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, for securing this debate. I declare an interest, as my home is in Little Missenden, which is close to the current preferred route for phase 1. Of course, being a nimby may encourage some others to devalue my comments, but without that close connection, I would probably not have studied the Government’s proposals in the way I have.

I want to make two points. I support investment in our national rail network and I am in favour of introducing a high-speed network for the UK, although I would start in a different place, both literally and metaphorically. I would start in the places that actually need high-speed connectivity, such as the south-west, Wales, the north-west of Scotland, and Scotland more generally—a contribution, perhaps, to a united kingdom.

I would insist on interconnectivity with other transport systems. Why on earth does HS2 no longer stop at Heathrow? Why does it not connect properly with HS1, through Stratford and thence to the continent? I would follow existing major transport corridors, such as the M40 from Heathrow to Birmingham, or the M1 through Milton Keynes. I would pay proper regard to areas of ancient woodland and precious areas of natural beauty, even if it means that journey times are slightly extended. I would consult properly on all the possible alternatives so that the best choice is made and I would certainly have a much better compensation scheme.

My second point is about the route through the Chilterns. The presentation of HS2 Ltd of the case for the “Y” route north of Birmingham trumpeted that it,

“avoids national parks, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty and registered parks and gardens”.

I welcome this, but it throws into stark relief the fact that the Chilterns is now the only AONB along the entire HS2 route that is adversely affected by the proposed scheme. My local campaign groups, Conserve the Chilterns and Countryside and the Chiltern Ridges HS2 Action Group have suggested a tunnel through the entire Chiltern AONB, which I support. However, HS2 Ltd clearly wants nothing to do with it. It claims it will increase costs by some 10 times the amount that we calculated it would cost but, of course, it will not publish its calculations to prove that.

A continuous full tunnel through the Chiltern AONB would not be necessary if HS2 was routed from Heathrow, up the M40, or through the M1 travel corridor to Milton Keynes. If the Government are intransigent on this, however, the continuous full tunnel would enhance the current phase 1 route because it better protects existing natural assets, meets local concerns, reduces the total phase 1 construction time and saves landscape-related costs of more than £65 million.

The Government should re-consult on the HS2 phase 1 route to allow proper and effective consideration of all alternative options, including those relating to the Chiltern AONB. They should ensure that the Chilterns tunnel proposals are included in the forthcoming environmental impact assessment, or else adopt the Labour Party’s proposals for hubs at Heathrow and Stratford.

Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Thursday 8th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, on securing this debate. It has been of high quality and interesting to listen to. I, too, welcome the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, and congratulate him on his excellent maiden speech. Although we will, of course, be sorry to lose the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, we hope to welcome the noble Lord very soon to the Front Bench and will enjoy debating with him. As the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, recognised in an important way, the Olympic and Paralympic Games were an all-party event. They were bid for and planned by one Government and delivered by another. As my noble friend Lady Ford said, we must not forget that the Games, the brilliant locations, the volunteers, the cultural Olympiad, the opening ceremony and the national journey of the Olympic flame were a huge success, part of that superb summer of sport in 2012.

It seems to be part of the British psyche—and certainly in our media—to attack and diminish our national successes. Thankfully, the Games in all the aspects that I just mentioned were such a success that the normal carping and sarcasm were trumped. The spirit of the Games triumphed and the Olympic stardust was widely spread, enhanced by the brilliant broadcasting by both the BBC and Channel 4. It is worth recalling that when in Singapore London won the right to host the Games, we made a promise to the International Olympic Committee and the people of this country that we would inspire a generation of young people through sport. This was the defining promise of the Games, not just because it was a good idea in and of itself—and it is—but because sport is the best medicine for so many of the problems that our society currently faces. Inactivity may well be the biggest public health problem of the 21st century.

The current recommendations are for adults to achieve a total of at least 30 minutes of moderate activity on five or more days a week; and for children to do a minimum of an hour’s moderate exercise every day. Physical inactivity and poor diet have led to an epidemic of obesity. I believe the latest figures are that 26% of adults and 30% of children are now classified as obese. That is the fourth highest level in the world. We are sitting on a time bomb. Sport can be the best medicine for improving emotional resilience and motivating kids to do their best at school. Evidence also suggests that high-quality PE and sport programmes, managed by committed and trained teachers and coaches, can boost attendance among certain groups of children at school, challenge anti-social behaviour and boost academic performance. There are, of course, other associations with regular, physical activity, including reducing stress, anxiety and depression.

All the available evidence suggests that simply mounting a successful Olympic and Paralympic Games would not of itself bring about a sustained increase in sports participation. For example, a study by Canterbury Christ Church University found that there is no direct inherent link between elite events and community participation in physical activity. That is why in the years running up to the Olympics, the previous Government invested year on year in school and community sport. Between 2002 and 2010, the number of young people doing at least two or more hours of sport a week rose from 25% to 90%; and 55% were doing three or more hours a week. By 2010, the average secondary school offered 25 different sports, including Olympic sports such as judo, cycling and badminton, where we have seen so much progress in recent years. However, since 2010 we have seen some of this sporting progress begin to disappear. There has been a reduction overall all of 69% in funding to school sport.

As has been mentioned, Labour set a target to get 2 million more adults physically active as a result of the Games and a million more active through sport. To achieve this, £480 million was invested through Sport England into “whole sports plans” for national sporting bodies to drive up participation across 46 different areas of sport. This money has now been cut and by 2010-11, those active in sport aged 16 and over had gone down for the first time since we won the Olympic bid in 2005. Furthermore, the latest active people survey also shows that of the 30 sports the survey measured, only four have seen an increase in participation and there have been decreases in 19. Research by the programme “You and Yours” has indicated that the swingeing cuts to local authority budgets have resulted in 36% of local authorities cutting back or closing sports facilities in the last three years. Since the June 2010 cut in support for free swimming, there has been an 11% decline in the number of people who go swimming at least once a week. That is nearly 350,000 people.

Over the last seven years, all the mainstream political parties came together to make the Olympic and Paralympic Games a success. Is it now time that they did the same for the sporting legacy? Team GB’s success inspired the nation. I believe that the future of sport could be above party politics, so I urge the Government to hold talks on a cross-party basis, along with all those organisations that are responsible for making sport happen in our country, to produce a long-term plan for sport. Some of the actions that need to be taken are: first, to reverse the downward trend in public funding for sport and physical activity. In the long term, any investment that raises participation in sport, both among young people and adults, is likely to save the Government through reduced costs to the National Health Service as a result of inactivity-related disease. Sport can also be an important tool for other social goals, as I have said. In future, perhaps we should decide our level of sports funding on the basis of what the potential long-term savings might be.

Secondly, we need to look at the structures that are responsible for sport in this country and whether they provide the most effective means to improve participation. Primary schools have already been mentioned because they are the area that is in most acute need of this support. Habits for sport and exercise are set early in life and all the available evidence indicates that expert coaching at an early age is the best route to installing a lifelong sporting habit. It is clear that school sports partnerships had a huge impact in improving the sporting offer available in schools. When great sporting nations such as Australia, Brazil and Canada have all made use of this programme, we should examine how we can begin to redevelop a comprehensive support system in schools that can motivate young people to play more sport, more often.

Thirdly, we need to reinvigorate the structures that exist to drive community participation in grass-roots sport, which have sadly fallen down in recent years. Fourthly, we need to look again at this vexed question of selling off school playing fields. In particular, I want the Minister to explain why the Government changed the Education (School Premises) Regulations 1999 which, when they were passed, set up minimum requirements for,

“minimum area of team game playing fields for schools”.

The replacement, the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, introduced just before the Olympics, simply states that “suitable” outdoor space must be provided.

Fifthly, given the extensive interest in the Games in your Lordships’ House, I wonder whether there is a case for setting up a Lords committee to keep an eye on the legacy issues that have been discussed in this excellent debate today. The committee could be charged to keep those toes that need to be burnt close to the fire, to use the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey.

Although I spent many hours trying, I did not manage to get tickets for the Games, although, through the kindness of friends, I and my family managed to get to three events and enjoyed them immensely. I was also privileged—and that is the right word—to be invited to participate in the medal ceremonies at the stadium at the last day of the athletics in the Paralympic Games. It was a truly wonderful occasion. I met some extraordinary athletes who happened to have a disability. Attending, watching or participating, you could not help but be inspired by the Olympic spirit, as mentioned by so many noble Lords this morning. You had your hopes raised that that new spirit will continue once the memory of the Games has faded.

There are some areas where effort is required. We have a choice. We either continue to hope that the various elements which are required to deliver a credible legacy and build on the Olympic spirit do what is needed, but do it by themselves; or we could try to build on the all-party consensus which delivered the Games and really get behind the legacy. That might, just might, do something special.