Trade Bill

Lord Bates Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, 80% of the UK economy—in fact, I think the figure is 85%—comprises services. I support the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Purvis, in bringing forward this probing amendment although, for the reasons given by my noble friend Lord Lansley, I am not convinced that we should change the Bill and make ourselves rule-takers on services. If noble Lords will allow, I would like to keep the issue of the free movement of people separate. The question is: do we lose as much from losing the single market on services? It is not very well developed at all. I know this because I tried to cut down barriers on services within the EU when I led the presidency work in BEIS in 2016.

Last week the Chancellor spoke at the UK Finance dinner, which I attended. I was sorry as a result of that—the timing was unhelpful—to miss the last group of amendments, of which mine formed part. The Chancellor talked about liberalising trade in services—a sort of WTO services round—going forward. Of course, this would also extend to the European Union if it were to happen.

I have two questions about services for my noble friend the Minister, the answers to which will help me when we consider the Bill on Report. First, can he elaborate on the Chancellor’s idea, or emerging Treasury ideas, of doing something on services beyond the European Union, which would help us in the European Union as well? Secondly, can he confirm that the Government’s proposed deal—the withdrawal agreement or the political declaration—would not get in the way of bilateral deals with third countries on services, given that the multilateralism that I love is very hard going? In other words, would we be able to conclude a deal with the US—again, very tough—or, perhaps more realistically, with the emerging and already emerged countries of Asia, where we are now selling a lot of services and where it seems that aligning some of the rules on services could be extremely valuable?

[The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, on behalf of all those who have spoken, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Purvis, for bringing forward Amendment 45, the purpose of which is to provide an opportunity for the Government to put some remarks on the record about our approach to services which, as we all agree, is of crucial importance. So, before coming to some of the specific questions that have been raised during this short debate, I will take advantage of that opportunity to set out the Government’s position as it now stands.

As my noble friends Lady McIntosh and Lady Neville-Rolfe, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, the UK’s services economy is a global success story. Our internationally competitive industries play host to world-leading firms as well as thriving small and medium-sized enterprises, and we have undertaken significant engagement with the sector on issues related to EU exit.

I would like to reassure the House that the Government are seeking arrangements for services and investment that cover all modes of service supply—my noble friend Lord Lansley correctly referred to the variations; that provide substantial sectoral coverage, including measures on professional business services, which my noble friend Lady McIntosh referred to; that go well beyond both sides’ WTO commitments as set out in the General Agreement on Trade in Services, which my noble friend Lord Lansley also mentioned; and that build on the provisions in existing EU agreements.

Moreover, through the political declaration we have secured a commitment from the EU 27 that our future trading relationship will be ambitious, comprehensive and balanced, and will include market access commitments to ensure that service suppliers and investors do not face quantitative restrictions such as monopolies, economic needs tests or joint venture requirements, which my noble friend Lord Hamilton expressed concern about; national treatment commitments, to ensure that UK service suppliers and investors are not discriminated against by the EU 27 and vice versa, as my noble friend Lady McIntosh referred to; new arrangements on financial services, grounded in economic partnership, providing greater co-operation and consultation than is possible under existing third country frameworks; appropriate measures on the recognition of qualifications, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, to support UK professionals practising in the EU 27 and vice versa; arrangements that allow for temporary entry and stay in each other’s territories for business purposes, including visa-free travel for short-term visits, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, rightly identified from his extensive work examining the internal market as a member of the Select Committee; and mechanisms to promote voluntary regulatory co-operation to guard against the introduction of unnecessary barriers to services, trade and investment, to which my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe referred. I pay tribute to the work that she did at BEIS in seeking to remove those barriers.

We have also been clear that after we leave the EU, the UK will have an independent trade policy covering all aspects of goods and services. To deliver that objective, it will be important to retain regulatory freedom where it matters most for the UK’s services-based economy.

I turn to some of the points that have been raised.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

Before the Minister moves on to detailed points, perhaps this might be a good moment for him to tell the Committee, out of all the countries with which we would like to have our own free trade agreements after we leave the EU—if we leave it—how many have indicated that they wish in principle to negotiate and sign such an agreement with this country; how many have said that they would do so on terms identical to their existing free trade agreement with the EU; and how many have indicated that they would not want to pursue such a negotiation at all?

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord will remember from day three of Committee last week that one of the questions asked was whether we could provide the Committee with some running status on where we are with all those free trade agreements. That is a perfectly reasonable approach and it is something that my noble friend Lady Fairhead agreed to take back to look at and come back on ahead of Report. Rather than using this opportunity to rehearse that, I will say that it is something that we are looking at. Specifically on the EU and Japan, I was going to come to that topic and say that there is a working group with Japan to seek to replicate its effect as part of the continuity arrangements.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, on the point about freedom of movement, I have two specific questions for the Minister. I accept what he has said, but I would like to quote a personal example and declare an interest. For a period, my wife was chief executive of the English National Ballet. It was a requirement for the success of the English National Ballet that ballet dancers from all over the world were able to join, but the ENB had great difficulty with ballet dancers from outside the EU because they do not earn anything like the money that is put down in the Immigration Rules to justify easy entry. Are the Government prepared to be flexible on the earnings requirement to enable cultural organisations, which are very important to the British economy, to easily access talent from the EU, where people’s salaries will not initially be that high?

Secondly, if you are a small business in services and trying to expand by getting jobs, projects and contracts on the continent, one of the obvious business strategies you would pursue is recruiting young people from the countries in which you hope to do business. You take them into your consultancy, or whatever, and that gives you language and personal links into the markets you are trying to target. Again, there is no guarantee that, under the immigration policy outlined by the Home Secretary, young people coming from European countries would be able to get jobs in that kind of situation. We asked for a clear statement of the Government’s trade policy. The Government have to be clear on these issues before we can proceed on the Bill.

[Lord Bates]

I am happy to do that, and perhaps get some notes—I know we have a group coming up on the mobility framework, to which those points will perhaps be pertinent. I will, if I can, address them there. I also draw the noble Lord’s attention to section 9 of the political declaration, paragraphs 50 to 59 inclusive, which sets out the Government’s position on that.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and my noble friend Lord Hamilton pointed to or asked a very important question on bilateral services-only trade agreements. There is no precedent for a bilateral services-only trade agreement. Where service agreements exist, they are notified to the WTO alongside a wider agreement that also covers goods. We are leaving the customs union so that we can set our own tariffs and have an independent trade policy tailored to the strengths and requirements of our economy, which therefore includes—by implication and explicitly—the importance of services to our economy. The political declaration sets out a plan for a UK-EU free trade area for goods, including no tariffs, with ambitious customs agreements. This will be the first such agreement between an advanced economy and the EU.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, referred to the situation in relation to Northern Ireland. Without wanting to revisit that whole area in this group, the situation is that in Northern Ireland, under the common travel area, the rights to work, study and access social security and public services will be preserved on a reciprocal basis for UK and Irish nationals in the other state.

I turn to the questions raised by my noble friend Lady McIntosh and, in particular, the two questions raised by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe. My noble friend referred to the Chancellor’s speech on liberalising services and looking for a more ambitious way forward. I am sure that is at the core of government policy, otherwise the Chancellor would not have said it. I do not have the text in front of me, so I cannot comment on its full meaning, but I will write to my noble friend on that point. My noble friend Lady McIntosh also asked a three-pronged question. For a company setting up in the UK, what would its situation be in the event of no deal on day one; in the event of the implementation period; and at the conclusion of a future economic framework? Some of those outcomes will depend on the extent of the negotiation, which we have set out in the heads of agreement in the political declaration. Between Committee and Report, I will write on my noble friend’s specific point relating to that. Again, I thank the noble Lord for giving us an opportunity to raise this very important issue.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

Can my noble friend clarify the point about services and goods? I asked whether we would be able to continue to do deals on services if we had a tight agreement—a customs union or whatever —with the EU. He was saying that goods and services tend to be linked in trade agreements and are never separate. Would that mean that we could not have services agreements, assuming we got something quite tight on goods? That would obviously be a problem. I know that they are linked—often, the service for your car and the computer in it are as important as the car itself—but I had seen them as distinct in the WTO. If my noble friend could write to me on that, I would be very interested.

[Lord Bates]

I will be glad to do so. In a lot of such agreements, especially for the major manufacturers, the bulk of the value of the trade or the deal is the service package and the support provided thereafter. I will be very happy to write to my noble friend ahead of Report.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

In the early part of his speech, the Minister read out an impressive list of points that had been achieved or secured before he moved on to his brilliant ex tempore dealing with the questions raised in debate. I confess that I did not recognise those points. I cannot remember seeing them in the withdrawal agreement. Was he perhaps referring to the relevant part of the political declaration, in which case surely those points have not been secured or achieved and what has been agreed is that all these things may be discussed over the next three, four or five years as the long-term relationship is considered?

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[Lord Bates]

Yes, except that the political declaration was of course part of the withdrawal agreement negotiated with the EU 27, so one hopes that it will form the basis of our future economic partnership.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and I have referred to the WTO. My understanding is that there have been objections to the UK’s submission of services schedules to the WTO and therefore they are unlikely to be certified if we leave at the end of March. We can still trade on them, but they are likely to be uncertified. Can the Minister give a little context about what concessions we might make or what discussions we would have with those countries that have lodged their objections? Clearly, they feel that we will not provide the same kind of market access to UK services as under the existing agreements. We could be starting from a situation that is much worse than simply carrying on with where we are at the moment at the WTO. If the Minister cannot respond at the moment, perhaps he could write.

[Lord Bates]

I am very happy to give further detail on that in the general update between Committee and Report, but, as the noble Lord knows, the schedules were tabled in December followed by a 90-day consultation period. There can be a variety of perspectives on them before they are finally adopted. I will get an update as to where we are on that before Report.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To clarify, my concern is about British companies establishing their services in what will be a third country, another EU country. I would be happy for my noble friend to write to me.

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful for that clarification. I shall make sure that that is what is addressed.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, it sounds as if we are starting off a new train of activity or various letters. I suspect that it might also be helpful if we had a short meeting on some of the issues just to draw them together. Like the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, I was entranced by the detailed nature of the early part of the Minister’s response and I got a bit lost—I think it was on the fourth point the second time round. We will need to read him and understand not only what he was saying but where these points are to be found in more detail. The chance to be able to do that in the context of the very rich debate we have had would be helpful.

That is not to say that I think there is that much between us: with friends like the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, how can I complain? We are on the same side here, most unusually and extraordinarily, agreeing on points of some substance. There is some progress, it has not always been easy going and I think the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, was right to point out that this is partly because we are centring on an agreement which is brokered by the WTO through the GATS system. He is correct—his background in the chambers of commerce means that he reads these documents carefully and understands their provenance—that the wording of the amendment is indeed taken from the four pillars, but I was unable to get the fourth pillar in; the clerks would not accept that. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, managed to get it into the next amendment but one, so we will have that debate shortly. That complication sets us off in slightly the wrong direction: we are not trying to change that structure in essence, because that is the overarching world system and we have to be careful we do not try to take on too many battles at the same time.

The political declaration is not the same as the agreement and of course all that gets wrapped up into some form of yet-to-be-understood free trade agreement which may or may not include both customs elements and services agreements. I think the noble Baroness is right to pick up the question of how all that melds together: will we be able to trade off some aspects of our services in order to achieve a better tariff arrangement, or is it better to keep them separate and deal with the different arrangements? I do not think we have a clear answer to that, but I do not think we are very far apart on it. We want this to be the best for Britain. We have done pretty well, against all the odds. Why change it if it is not certain that the changes are going to be beneficial to us?

Having said that, the question from my noble friend Lord Davies is right: what is the point of this amendment if it does not improve where we are? That is where the test has to be. We must look carefully at the responses and make sure we have the right view. There may be some argument for having something, either in this Bill or in the non-continuity Bill yet to come, if that is the Government’s intention. However, at this stage we are unable to say that, so with that in mind, but with thanks to all who have contributed to a very rich debate, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Lansley for moving this amendment. He has managed to get on to prime time in this territory. I once represented a seat on Teesside, which is very close to my heart. The idea has been advocated by the excellent mayor there, Ben Houchen, and by some of the local MPs, such as Simon Clarke and Rishi Sunak.

To reassure my noble friend, the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979—CEMA—allows for the designation of free zones, as he mentioned. The Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act, which the Government passed through your Lordships’ House last September, allows HMRC to make regulations regarding goods kept in a free zone. Under CEMA, operators are free to apply to become a free zone. The Government are open to any ideas that might deliver economic advantages for the UK and will continue to examine the role that free zones may play as part of this. Assuming that we will have an independent trade policy, we will be able to have these types of examinations and innovations.

Existing customs facilitations in the UK offer the same benefits as free zones, but are not geographically limited and can be accessed anywhere across the country, thereby potentially having more widespread benefits for the UK as a whole. For example, a manufacturer could import materials for its products and store them in a customs warehouse anywhere else in the country, without duties being paid on them. The manufacturer or its supply chain could then use those materials in its manufacturing process under inward processing relief and could export the finished goods without any UK customs duty ever having to be paid. Those existing facilitations, therefore, avoid the distortions to which the noble Lord, Lord Davies, referred, which can arise from free zones where a manufacturer or its supply chain would be required to locate on the same site to benefit.

The UK’s ability to formulate a free zone that diverges from the Union customs code will depend on the future relationship with the European Union. The Government have also been clear that it is a commercial decision for operators to make on whether they want to apply for designation of an area as a free zone, and we will review any applications made. I am not able to be more helpful than that to my noble friend at this point, much as I may wish to be.

[Lord Lansley]

Since there is no recent substantial experience of free zones, does my noble friend not think it would be helpful—if we arrive at the point where we exit the Union customs code—for the Government at least to initiate a consultation to look at the criteria that would be applied in examining the designation of free-zone status?

[Lord Bates]

My noble friend will be aware that “consultation” has a specific meaning now in legal terms, which is quite an onerous responsibility of the process. We could seek ways to discuss—perhaps with BEIS as part of the industrial strategy—or to engage with others who are interested. He mentioned Humberside, Teesside and others, and I think we could look at ways in which that could be done. I am very happy to take that thought back to the Treasury and write to him further on that.

[Lord Lansley]

Once again, I am grateful to my noble friend and that is a very welcome comment. I look forward to further discussion about that but, on that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, a powerful case has been made by the party to my left. My sadness is that the framing of the amendment before us deals largely with how any future trade agreement with the EU should have a relaxed approach to the mobility framework and, picking up the point of our earlier debate, tries to insert in some measure the fourth pillar of the GATS process, which allows for individuals to travel in support of goods and services.

The case we heard, and the emotion it raises, are about the much broader ideas of freedom of movement and the ability to transfer skills, particularly in the creative industries. Although it was not specifically mentioned, presumably it seeks to try to loosen the way in which the Government currently treat overseas students. There is a wider, richer, deeper and more important argument about the need for mobility, its importance for any modern nation state and the contribution it can make to our economy and our culture. That needs to be answered, but it is not picked up particularly by this amendment.

We too discovered this problem when tabling amendments. The title of the Bill means that we can not have as broad a discussion as we would wish. However, there is an immigration Bill coming, and others in your Lordships’ House will want to pick up many of the points made here and raise them in the context of a much wider and more appropriate set of immigration conditions and arrangements, which will satisfy much of the discussions we have heard this afternoon.

On the narrow question of where we move, it would be wrong to try to seek a broader solution to the problems identified through a generic approach. There is no doubt that what appeared to be—and it was appearance rather than reality—unbridled immigration was a factor in the referendum that led to the formation of the Brexit arrangements. We would be stupid to ignore that. There are probably answers and solutions that would be satisfactory to all concerned, but not in this amendment. Nevertheless, I will listen carefully to what the Minister says in response to this point. This issue will not go away and we look forward to returning to it at a future stage.

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for introducing this amendment, which deals with an important area already touched on this afternoon. It will of course be pored over in some detail as the immigration Bill makes its way to your Lordships’ House.

There is no dodging the key line in the political declaration. At paragraph 56, I think, it makes it clear that free movement will end as the UK leaves the EU. The noble Lord is passionate in his advocacy of free movement, and he has expressed his view that it is a stupid idea—I think I quote him correctly—to get rid of it. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, identified, this issue is more complex. To use his term, unbridled immigration was an issue, and we would be stupid to ignore that. Therefore, there is a difference of views here but, as the noble Lord invites me to set out the Government’s position, I will put it on the record if I can.

I appreciate the desire to ensure that businesses and individuals who trade in services and goods between the UK and the EU will have the ability to move across borders to do so. The Government are committed to securing the best deal for UK businesses. We have set out a clear proposal for an ambitious future relationship with the European Union, including a reciprocal framework for mobility. This was reflected in the political declaration on our future relationship. The detail will be discussed in the next phase of our negotiations.

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[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, earlier the Minister mentioned crossing borders. Would that include onward movement, which is a particular concern of not only individuals and self-employed people in this country but British people living in Europe? Time and again, I have heard that that is a particular concern.

[Lord Bates]

I may not be able to get a categorical answer on that, but I am happy to undertake to write to the noble Earl ahead of Report to clarify that point.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

The Minister said that perhaps this amendment would be better placed elsewhere, but I wondered why, in the sequence of events, the UK did not agree a temporary arrangement with Switzerland on continuity, for example, in the case that I raised earlier in Committee. Instead, the Government have agreed a permanent relationship arrangement with the Swiss for free movement of people for three months a year if they are providing services. Clearly, the Government thought it was not sufficient to wait until we debated the Immigration Bill, when we could have considered that aspect of our relationship with Switzerland and others. But the Government have made a decision. So as my noble friend Lord Fox indicated, it is right that we press the Government much more. Why did the Government make a case for giving Swiss nationals a permanent right of visa-free travel and work for three months a year, but are taking a distinct approach to other countries, including our EU partners?

[Lord Bates]

Obviously, those are discussions that will have to be concluded in the future framework. On the specific point about Switzerland, however, the noble Lord suggested that the services elements were additional to the Government’s policy on immigration as set out in the Immigration Bill. That is not correct; it is not inconsistent with the provisions in that Bill.

On the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, on onward movement for EU nationals, the UK pushed strongly for the inclusion of onward movement rights during the first phase of negotiations on citizens’ rights in the withdrawal agreement but the EU was not ready to include them at that time. I made that point about reciprocity earlier. We recognise that onward movement opportunities are an important issue for UK nationals in the EU and we remain committed to raising this during detailed discussions on our future relationship. That is the latest position we have at the present.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

There has been a lot of concern in the past that the position of the Commonwealth, relative to that of the EU, has been bad—that EU citizens and EU goods can come to this country without let or hindrance, whereas people and goods from the Commonwealth are unable to do so and have to take their place with the rest of the world. As I understand it, following our departure from the EU, our Commonwealth will be in the same position as people from the EU, and indeed the rest of the world. Can we be assured that the Government’s future policy in relation to the Commonwealth will ensure that it will have equal access?

[Lord Bates]

I listened very carefully to the final words that the noble Lord used when he talked about “equal access”, and I draw back from that a little. But on the broad principle, when we talk about the scheme of preferences and economic partnership agreements that we have with Commonwealth countries, if we have an independent trade policy, of course we will be able to take that into account. We would be free to do that. Similarly, if we are not part of free movement within the EU and have our independent immigration policy, we are in a position to set out the terms on which we want to admit people to work in this country. I hope that is helpful to the noble Lord.

[Lord Fox]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for the minimal debate that we have had around this. I will look closely at Hansard, but I did not hear the Minister refer to the £30,000 threshold issue and the false dichotomy between skilled and unskilled. Between now and Report, I would like the Minister to come back to that, and I apologise if he did indeed raise it.

[Lord Bates]

Before the noble Lord sits down—I have always wanted to say that—I did have some notes on that. Perhaps I could intrude on the noble Lord’s wind-up to say that the Government are committed to ensuring that the future immigration system works in the international interests of all the UK. The Migration Advisory Committee advised that the £30,000 salary threshold should still apply. The Home Office is undertaking an extensive programme of engagement on its White Paper proposals and will discuss with business and a variety of other sectors, including the creative industries, what a suitable threshold should be. If a skilled job is considered to be in shortage in the UK, a lower threshold is likely apply. I hope that helps the Committee and the noble Lord.

[Lord Fox]

It helps somewhat, and I urge the Government to consult extensively with the care and food service sectors. Hygiene skills, for example, benefit the food sector a lot. I am sure most employees there earn less than the scheduled threshold. There is also the issue of freelancers and self-employed people. I will not get the Minister up again but I will be looking for a response on that. I also did not hear from Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition anything other than what I would call a very weak response. It was, frankly, disappointing. With that proviso, I beg leave to withdraw.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I hesitate to become too involved in this debate, which seems rather above the level at which I am accustomed to operating, but one or two things came to mind. As the noble Lord, Lord Lea, explained to me and as came through in his address, the purpose of the amendment is to make sure that we explore all possible options before coming to a conclusion on the many difficult issues before us today. He has done that clearly and it will be interesting to hear what the Minister has to say in response.

It would probably defeat any prospect for active negotiation to play the card that has been played in this amendment at this point, but it is worth bearing in mind the issues that it raises and the much broader point that the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, was keen to explore: so many strands to our positioning are being coalesced into a single deal/no deal debate, squeezing out our opportunities for further, richer and more flexible solutions to the long-term problems that we have all recognised and debated today. At this point, it would be best to hear from the Minister what the official line is and then see whether there are issues that we need to come back to on Report.

[Lord Bates]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lea, for setting out the rationale for his amendment. He was sincere in his attempt to persuade us and very thorough, as I would expect of a distinguished economist, in setting out in some detail his thoughts on where this option might go. Whether it is plan B, C, D or E, the reality is that it is a proposal that the Government take seriously and I want to respond to it in that manner.

As my noble friends Lord Finkelstein and Lord Trenchard have mentioned, the very topic of EEA membership was debated in another place in relation to the EU withdrawal Act on 13 June last year and again in relation to this Bill on 17 July. The outcome was clear: the EEA is not the right model for the UK.

Membership of EFTA and the EEA would mean accepting the continued free movement of people, which both Conservative and Labour manifestos pledged to end at the last election—which I suspect is why the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, suggested that this might be a debate that the Labour Front Bench wished to sidestep; of course, on the Government Bench we do not have that luxury.

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[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords, I support Amendment 77 for the reason that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has just given, and I strongly support Amendment 80, for the reason that my noble friend Lord Hannay gave.

Amendment 78, however, is very strange. I support it, but we are in Alice in Wonderland territory here. It is an entirely academic interest, because it seems to me implausible that Mr Barclay and Mr Paterson, and their high-powered alternative arrangements group, would come back to this alternative arrangement—the Chequers proposal—given that they ambushed the Government to take it out by their amendment to the taxation Bill.

It was always rather a fanciful idea anyway. In its brief life, it had several forms. First, it was proposed as a reciprocal arrangement. The foreigners would have to clog up Rotterdam, Antwerp, Hamburg and Bremen collecting our tariffs and operating our quotas, segregating our goods from goods going to the EU, which would be charged EU tariffs and subject to EU quotas. Once segregated, in some magic way, our goods would then proceed to the United Kingdom, having paid UK tariffs at their first European port of entry. That was never going to happen.

The second form, once noises from Brussels had been heard, was that we would do it for EU goods but the EU would not be required to do it for our imports at its ports. It was that, I think, which provoked the ire of the ERG: why should we collect foreign tax? But there was no possibility of the EU at any stage agreeing that we should collect its tariffs at our ports.

There are several degrees of lunacy here, and we have this very strange prohibition on the statute book. I think that the statute book should not contain nonsenses, and so I support the amendment. However, it does not matter. The EU would never agree this proposal in any of its incarnations. Mr Paterson, Mr Barclay and these other trade experts are not going to come up with it as an idea in the alternative arrangements committee, because they were dead against it. Therefore, although I support the amendment, I do not think one need spend a lot of time on it.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I rise more in hope than expectation of being able to persuade your Lordships. I pick up the sense from the Committee that this is probably something that your Lordships will want to return to in more depth on Report. Perhaps the best service I can offer at this stage is to put on record the Government’s position, respond to some of the precise points and then await further developments as they may unfold between now and Report.

Amendments 77, 78, 79 and 80 relate to changes passed in the other place during the passage of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018. This Act is important legislation as the UK leaves the EU. It enables the Government to create a stand-alone customs regime by ensuring that the UK can charge customs duty on goods, set and vary the rates of custom duty, and suspend or relieve duty in certain circumstances.

I turn now to the substance of the original amendments to the Act, which these amendments seek to remove. Amendment 77 relates to Section 31(5), which requires further parliamentary scrutiny in the event that the power under Section 31(4) is used to implement a customs union with the EU. The Government support the principle of further parliamentary scrutiny in this case. My noble friend Lord Lansley suggested that this was perhaps reflective of the politics of the movement. As a distinguished former Leader of the House in another place, he will be very familiar with how that side of things works. However, as this House is aware, the Government have made it clear that they are not seeking to be in a customs union with the EU as part of our future economic partnership—I say that without wishing to reopen the many debates we have had on “a” and “the”.

It is important to reflect why the Government have taken this view and to consider what leaving the EU means. It means the ability to strike out on our own to forge new trade deals. In order to do this, one important element is to have the ability to set our own tariffs. Being in a customs union would deny the UK this ability and fundamentally undermine our capacity to negotiate new trade deals with old friends and new partners.

The noble Lord kindly outlined, as he saw it, the way in which Amendment 78 arrived, referencing first the Bill and then the amendment. The Government have been clear in their White Paper that the arrangement they are seeking will ensure that both the UK and the EU get their fair share of the revenues from the rest of world trade. Section 54 of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act is in line with the proposals that the Government set out with a view to achieving just that.

Turning to Amendment 79, Section 55 of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 requires a single UK customs territory. This is a statement of government policy and ensures that the Government will not act incompatibly with the commitments made in the joint report of December 2017, where they committed to protect the constitutional integrity of the UK.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

I apologise for interrupting the Minister. I want to add perhaps another degree of lunacy to the several mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. New Section 31 of the taxation Act, which Amendment 77 seeks to rectify, contains the following phrase:

“In the case of a customs union between the United Kingdom and the European Union”.


The Government said that that would not apply because the customs territory they are seeking to have will not be a customs union. So even if just to make the legislation neater, it should be taken out.

On defining the scope of the single customs territory, which we are seeking to do, the Government’s Legal Position on the Withdrawal Agreement, command paper 9747, says it is that,

“under which the UK aligns itself with the Union’s external tariff and there can be no tariffs or quantitative restrictions on imports and exports between the UK and the EU. The single customs territory therefore constitutes a customs union for the purposes of GATT19, but it is not the EU’s customs union as defined in Article 28 TFEU”.

It can either be one thing or the other, but the Government’s own document on the legal position says that the customs territory will be a customs union.

[Lord Bates]

I will make some progress, but I will come back to that point—when inspiration arrives.

No UK Government, regardless of their political leanings, could ever accept such a carving up of the United Kingdom—I am referring here of course to the division between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Indeed, on 15 October, in another place, the Prime Minister said:

“We have been clear that we cannot agree to anything that threatens the integrity of our United Kingdom, and I am sure that the whole House shares the Government’s view on this. Indeed, the House of Commons set out its view when agreeing unanimously to section 55 in … the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 on a single United Kingdom customs territory, which states: ‘It shall be unlawful for Her Majesty’s Government to enter into arrangements under which Northern Ireland forms part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain.’ So the message is clear not just from this Government but from the whole House”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/10/18; col. 410.]


Turning to Amendment 80—before I come to some of the points raised during the debate—the Government’s position is that they will not seek to be in a customs union with the EU. We have debated this issue in this House and in the other place throughout the passage of this Bill—leaving aside the very clear response that is on its way to the noble Lord; he should be prepared for that. As has already been highlighted to the House, at Report stage in the Commons, MPs rejected an amendment seeking to keep the UK in a customs union with the EU.

On the specific points relating to import VAT, it is clear that the Government are highly cognisant of the concerns raised. I will deal with that point now because the noble Lord asked some very good questions on VAT treatment, and it is good to have an opportunity to put the position on the record. Goods from third countries are treated as imports, with VAT due accounted for on import or by the 15th of the following month as duty of customs. This means that, unlike acquisitions, there is a cash-flow impact because traders have to pay the import VAT and potentially recover it later when they submit their VAT returns. It also means that there needs to be an option to pay import VAT on the border, as not all businesses have the necessary guarantee to defer payment until the following month. Generally, import VAT is paid sooner on goods from non-EU countries than on goods from EU countries. This provides a cash-flow benefit to companies importing goods from the EU compared to businesses that import from non-EU countries. Without an UK-EU agreement to retain this treatment, goods entering the UK from the EU would be treated as imports and would be subject to the same rules as businesses moving goods from non-EU countries. This would mean businesses paying VAT on imports from the EU sooner, affecting their cash flow. The Government published a series of technical notices in August 2018 to help businesses prepare for the unlikely event of a no-deal scenario. The VAT technical notice, “VAT for businesses if there’s no Brexit deal”, announced that the Government will introduce postponed accounting for import VAT on goods brought into the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked why we accepted Section 54—originally New Clause 36—of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018. The Government did so because it was consistent with our position. It requires the Government to negotiate a reciprocal arrangement for the collection and remittance of VAT, customs and excise duties. The Government have been clear that both the UK and EU should agree a mechanism for the remittance of relevant revenue. The Government set out in their July White Paper that they propose a revenue formula that takes into account goods destined for the UK entering via the EU and goods destined for the EU entering via the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked whether the customs territory is a customs union under GATT, and he deserves a full answer to his detailed question, so I commit to writing to him. That should be very clear to the noble Lord and all Members of the House—well worth waiting for.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

I ask this question as someone who is not a politician and who therefore sometimes gets quite confused about the repetition of entrenched views, which have led us to the undoubted stalemate that we are in. This really concerns the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I heard the Minister’s response, but it seems to me that everything I hear about Brexit suggests that the Northern Ireland backstop is a real sticking point. Is it not conceivable that, to get around that problem, the Government might have to consider some form of customs union?

[Lord Bates]

It is a challenge when someone with the noble Lord’s intellect begins a sentence by apologising for not being a politician and then asks for clarity at the present time. We are discussing this legislation, but we all know that we are in one of the most fast-moving, dynamic episodes of negotiation that this country has ever entered into. We are gradually working our way through. The White Paper was published at a moment when we were seeking to flesh out exactly what the Government’s position was in response to the Commission saying, “We don’t know what the UK’s position is; we don’t know what they want”. Therefore, the White Paper was introduced at that point. Then there was the clamour for clarity for business—what it would do in the event of no deal—so the technical notices were issued. Then, we got to the position where we reached an outline agreement with the European Commission in December, against many people’s expectations, along with heads of terms for what a future economic partnership might be. That was then presented to the other place and roundly rejected. Therefore, we have now begun another process, so I readily accept that if one wants to score points by stopping the clock at various stages along the process and pointing to certain inconsistencies in it, the Government are pretty easy fare for that.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

The Minister is making a very gallant effort and I applaud it. I enjoyed many of the things he said, particularly when he referred to a no-Brexit deal. I thought that was a very encouraging concept. I really cannot let him get away with where he is now, in this fast-moving situation he describes. Put yourself in the place of the EU 27: what are they supposed to think when the Prime Minister scuttles her own fleet? She orders her party to vote down the backstop in the treaty. The backstop is 21 articles, 10 annexes and 172 pages. The Prime Minister’s officials have negotiated that line by line, month by month and it is there because we asked for it. Then she decides that the best thing to do with it is to replace it with alternative arrangements, which are now being devised by Mr Owen Paterson and Mr Stephen Barclay. The Minister tells us that this is a fast-moving situation and it is quite hard to keep up with it, but there is nothing happening in Brussels but sheer astonishment at the failure of our system.

[Lord Bates]

That is the noble Lord’s position on this: the reality is that the Prime Minister is seeking an agreement that can command a majority in the other place and that requires compromise. That is what the agreement represents. The House made its view on the withdrawal agreement clear; she is now seeing whether that can be addressed with the Commission. Personally, I wish her well and every possible success, as opposed to my own mis-speaking. Lest it be on the record, I am sure that Sigmund Freud would have observed that perhaps I had momentarily let slip an inner feeling, which, of course, has nothing to do with the position of Her Majesty’s Government, which I consistently seek to put forward from this Dispatch Box and proudly support.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked about support for government amendments that preclude the facilitated customs arrangements. We would argue that there is nothing about the amendments made to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act in the other place that is inconsistent with the draft political declaration that will inform the future relationship. On the point made by the noble Lords, Lord Hannay and Lord Stevenson, about insufficient focus on VAT implications, the Government have been clear that we are aware of the potential impact on businesses of any move away from the concept of acquisition VAT, but we have also set out that in any scenario we are seeking to avoid any adverse effects. Amendment 80 does not affect that in our view.

[Lord Fox]

On that last point, we keep talking about 29 March, but of course sales are already being made and shipping has already been arranged that may well arrive in this country or continental Europe after 29 March. The business decisions to invest, to make things and try to sell them have already been made, so minimising the impact is not possible. The impact has already started.

[Lord Bates]

Yes, there is a reason why we have brought back the agreement—to resolve the situation.

As for whether the amendments have been considered in the other place, the other place voted for two of the original amendments and had the opportunity to vote on another two but decided not to do so, so the other place made its view clear on that point.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

On this point about VAT, I hope the Minister will forgive me for saying that he and I are probably slightly out of our depth on the detail of how this will work. From what he just said and from the guidance that he read out at some stage, it sounds as though the Government and HMRC understand that potential friction will come into our trade with the EU if we do not ensure that something like the present arrangements continue. Back in the 1980s, when I was involved in the matter, we avoided a perfectly appalling idea by Lord Cockfield of having a clearing house in Brussels into which everyone would pay all this VAT. We have a frictionless system and it sounds as though the Government understand that that should be preserved. But I rather doubt that that is consistent with the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act, because of the amendment on VAT that was put in by the ERG.

The best thing that we could ask of the Minister this evening is to go back and consider very carefully whether the Government should either accept Amendment 80 or give some fairly lengthy explanation of what they will do and how that is—if it is—consistent with the Act now on the statute book. That would be best. Then, when we return to this on Report, we will all have probably learned quite a lot.

[Lord Bates]

I am very happy to give an undertaking to the noble Lord that I will reflect with colleagues, particularly my noble friend Lady Fairhead, on the comments made on these amendments, notwithstanding the points that I have put on the record about the Government’s position. We can return to these on Report and I will seek to give some further information in the gap in between Committee and Report. I hope, in the meantime, that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

That was an interesting and enlivening evening. I have come up with a brilliant title for my forthcoming novel—Seven Degrees of Lunacy, or could it be eight? That might be easier, although I doubt it. I have speculated at length about whether we are in Alice in Wonderland, as was suggested, but my favourite suggestion is that we are in Gormenghast, because we seem to be trapped in structures not of our own making, with a design that is not of our wish and with an outcome that is very uncertain and probably leads to madness. But enough of that.

One unifying thought was summed up neatly by the Minister in his last remarks when he said that we needed to think a little harder about what the problem is. Everyone who has spoken, other than the Minister, took the view that these issues had a common theme—the reasons may be different but the theme is that they all have the potential to derail us later down the track. The Government should think about that issue rather than the particularities of these issues. If it is going to be problematic to get an agreement in both Houses on a Motion for an extension of a customs union, because of the argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, about the inherent asymmetry of one set of rules for the US and another for the EU, that may not be helpful. I do not think we are saying any more than that. There is an opportunity here to do something to ease the roadblocks that we can see down the track, whichever track we go down.

Amendment 78 was part of the Chequers arrangements but is now otiose and it is not beyond the wit of others to point out that it still exists in statute and might cause difficulty further down the line. Amendment 79, as my noble friend Lord Hain said, bears directly on the backstop. Is it really sensible to have this power hanging over us in another piece of legislation as we get to the later stages of that, if that is what is going to happen? On VAT, it is not really about the agreement that might be coming but a broader issue about VAT in general, because there might be a better way of collecting VAT that originates outside the UK. It is complicated and a short meeting might be a way to find the common ground that we want to take forward. I am grateful to the noble Lord for wading through that and having the doubtful honour of assigning his name to it in Hansard. It is useful to have it there and we will study it carefully.

I think there is time to have another look at this. Even if we disagree on some of the issues, it cannot be right for Parliament to pass legislation that it knows is not going to be of any use. I think that was the point the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, was making. If this is where we are, why do we just not do it? We could do it differently and see if we can use the time to clear it up properly. That is the way I would like to see it go forward but it is not in my hands. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.