Trade Bill

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Although this group of amendments points in different directions, the amendments have a common starting point, and it is therefore not inappropriate that they should be debated together. Amendment 77 is in my name, joined by other noble Lords, and others have put their names to Amendments 78, 79 and 80, to which I shall also speak.

The history is important, because it raises a wider point than we have recently discussed, although we have from time to time touched on it: the fact that the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act and this Bill are really two sides of the same coin. They deal with aspects of trade which need to be in place in the unfortunate event that we crash out of the EU, but they are also pointers towards how we would carry out our trade policy and activity in the event of either crashing out or, as the Government would wish, having an extended period during which various other agreements would be added to the withdrawal agreement and political declaration.

The question that underlies the amendments is: are we in a good place to take forward those future discussions, given the two pieces of legislation that we are looking at? Because of how the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill was defined as it went through the other place, it came in a form expertly handled by the Minister but which allowed us only a limited degree of comment and an occasional question, which he was of course well able to answer but which did not allow us to either amend or question in any serious way how the Bill was framed or where it pointed.

In addition, at a very late stage in the process in the Commons, the Government accepted a group of amendments tabled by the rather quaintly named European Research Group which, to many people, were tabled very late, rather surprising and subject to little debate—they certainly did not go through Committee. So the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill, unscrutinised by your Lordships’ House, was not even scrutinised to any great extent in the Commons after the later amendments arrived which changed its nature.

At the time, we felt that there were issues that could have been raised in debate, but we were unable to do so. Of course, the presence of the Trade Bill before your Lordships’ House and its ability to amend previous legislation opens up the opportunity to make some changes, if the House feels that to be an appropriate way forward.

In crude terms, Amendments 77 to 80 would reverse the late amendments made by the European Research Group to the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill in the other place. In so doing, obviously one looks at the impact that those amendments had and tries to frame our amendments in relation to both the Bill and wider policy arrangements. Briefly, it is fair to say that the conclusion that we on this side have come to is that those amendments do not strengthen our position in general terms and that it should be the duty of this House carefully to consider whether they should be removed, because that would return the Bill to a much better place in terms of where we may require powers set out in the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act to be utilised.

For example, Amendment 77 removes the restriction in Section 31 on creating a customs union with the European Union by requiring a separate Act of Parliament to be passed before the designated powers could be used. We think that that should be amended because the restriction under the previous amendment will make it difficult for the Government to negotiate a customs union—or even the customs union—should that be the way that they wish to move in forthcoming discussions.

As it stands, the collection of taxes and duties on behalf of the European Union would be banned unless there are reciprocal arrangements, but Amendment 78 would change that. I think the debate has moved on here, and it could be argued that Amendment 78 is probably the least important of the group. Nevertheless, it was a change perhaps made in haste and, at leisure, the Government may come to the view that it is not the best way to try to open a negotiation if the possibilities one is offering are already restricted by the Act.

Amendment 79 would make it legal for the Government to enter into arrangements that would see Northern Ireland forming a separate customs territory from the rest of the UK. Although I gather that this has support from the DUP, it still makes it a very different situation and context for any discussion about the backstop arrangements. Other noble Lords may expand on that issue. As it stands, the Bill seems again to cut off an opportunity for future discussion and debate—which is even more important than when the amendments were tabled.

Amendment 80 concerns a rather significant change to the way in which VAT is charged in a customs union. It is perhaps of some interest to your Lordships’ House that we have not, within the duopoly of legislation with which we are currently dealing—the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act and the Trade Bill—dealt with the question of why the VAT rules that operate within the EU have not also been subject to attention. It will be interesting to hear the Minister’s response.

Of course, VAT is dealt with under separate rules under a separate agreement among the countries in the EU; it is not part of the EU as such, nor part of any other arrangements which normally interpose with trade. To that extent, the Schedule 8 arrangements in the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act are distinct and different. It is therefore important that we should have some response from the Government about how this should be taken forward.

The amendment proposed by the European Research Group and inserted into the Act is not the only story that needs to be told on this, but we may not wish to go all the way down that route, although expertise is available should we wish to do so. The Government should be very clear about how they intend to take this forward. I beg to move.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Purvis, and the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, who asked me to mention that he is unable to be here but that he continues to support the amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, introduced the amendments admirably and explained very clearly why those parts of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act which we seek to change are either unnecessary or damaging. He is absolutely right to say that the least important is probably the European Research Group amendment passed at a very late stage in the Commons, which we had no chance to intervene on effectively when it came through this House because it was a money Bill.

However, one part of it makes collection of customs duties possible only if the European Union collects customs duties and gives them to us. The original idea was that we would collect duties on behalf of the European Union; this was an essential part of the—now lost in the mists of time and buried deep under the soil—Chequers plan. The European Research Group amendment, frankly, neutered the Chequers plan, but as the European Union was never going to accept it anyway and made it clear at Salzburg and later that it would not accept it, there seems no point leaving it on the statute book.

The last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, relating to Amendment 80 about VAT is actually extremely important. Anyone who seriously believes that preventing the British Government maintaining a VAT union, if you would like to call it that—a system that enables trade across borders between us and the European Union without the need for extremely elaborate VAT calculations, inspections, payments and so on—and doing away with that which exists now and going back to where we were before that existed will not put a huge amount of friction on our trade simply does not understand the realities. The VAT aspect is just as important as the tariff aspect and is separate from it. Unfortunately, the European Research Group—in its usual extraordinarily constructive way—has managed to insert something here that would be really damaging to our interests if it is sustained when we go into negotiations with the European Union about future trade arrangements. The only sensible thing to do—I hope the Government will give careful thought to this—is to get rid of this now and take it out of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act.

We cannot be certain now what the Government and the European Union will do when negotiating our future trade arrangements. The Government are quite right to say they cannot guarantee how that will go. But they can remove this great ball and chain around their ankle, put there by the European Research Group, which would be really damaging to us if it ever came to be a central part of our future trade relationship. To say that relationship will be frictionless if the VAT aspect is not dealt with is just a bad joke, frankly, if you have to have VAT inspections, payments and all that sort of thing on goods that are passing. After all, the VAT levels are different in every member state, and the current system enables us to live with that without slowing down or impeding trade; that would go. So I really hope the Government—if not tonight, at least before Report—could say that they will take out that amendment, which should never have been allowed in. This is the single most important amendment in this group of four.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I am very happy to have my name attached to these amendments. It shows the Government there is a degree of cross-party consensus that it is important that these aspects—which, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson said, did not get the level of scrutiny they deserved in the Commons—get scrutiny in Parliament. This is after the event, because in effect we are scrutinising legislation, but there is no harm in a bit of post-legislative scrutiny of the taxation Act. In an exchange the Minister and I had during the very brief proceedings in this House on the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill, the Minister said there would be ample opportunities for scrutiny, such as during the upcoming Trade Bill, so we are taking him at his word and offering the Government a chance to give a full-throated defence of the ERG amendments passed in the Commons.

As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said, there are perhaps some unintended consequences of these amendments that we now need to properly scrutinise. It is an extraordinary position we find ourselves in where Members of the Government’s party moved amendments to the Government’s Bill that would in effect render the Government’s then policy on the facilitated customs arrangement largely inoperable. Now those same Members are meeting the same Government today to breathe new life into the very systems of a facilitated customs arrangement that they themselves rendered largely inoperable by their amendments. I was struggling for an analogy on the way to the Chamber this afternoon. I could not find one as ridiculous as the position we now find ourselves in. If it is the purpose of the so-called alternative arrangements working group that is now meeting to try to find solutions to the problems that they themselves created, I do not think that any alternative arrangements will come out of this working group.

The ERG amendments now sit most uncomfortably with the process under way, so it is right that we give them proper scrutiny. The Government say one of the amendments they accepted—that there would need to be a stand-alone statute for any customs arrangement agreed with the European Union—is not necessary for any other trade agreements. If I understand it correctly, the positon of the Government is that the free trade agreement with the European Union would undergo a CRaG process, which is an affirmative process to be approved because there is a treaty, but a secondary customs arrangement that would come with that would have to have a stand-alone statute. Why? What is the Government’s rationale for that? In the Commons, the Government simply said they thought it would be appropriate that there would be a stand-alone statute. I do not understand why, so I hope the Government might be able to tell us why that would be the case.

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[Lord Bates]

Yes, there is a reason why we have brought back the agreement—to resolve the situation.

As for whether the amendments have been considered in the other place, the other place voted for two of the original amendments and had the opportunity to vote on another two but decided not to do so, so the other place made its view clear on that point.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

On this point about VAT, I hope the Minister will forgive me for saying that he and I are probably slightly out of our depth on the detail of how this will work. From what he just said and from the guidance that he read out at some stage, it sounds as though the Government and HMRC understand that potential friction will come into our trade with the EU if we do not ensure that something like the present arrangements continue. Back in the 1980s, when I was involved in the matter, we avoided a perfectly appalling idea by Lord Cockfield of having a clearing house in Brussels into which everyone would pay all this VAT. We have a frictionless system and it sounds as though the Government understand that that should be preserved. But I rather doubt that that is consistent with the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act, because of the amendment on VAT that was put in by the ERG.

The best thing that we could ask of the Minister this evening is to go back and consider very carefully whether the Government should either accept Amendment 80 or give some fairly lengthy explanation of what they will do and how that is—if it is—consistent with the Act now on the statute book. That would be best. Then, when we return to this on Report, we will all have probably learned quite a lot.

[Lord Bates]

I am very happy to give an undertaking to the noble Lord that I will reflect with colleagues, particularly my noble friend Lady Fairhead, on the comments made on these amendments, notwithstanding the points that I have put on the record about the Government’s position. We can return to these on Report and I will seek to give some further information in the gap in between Committee and Report. I hope, in the meantime, that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I am happy to contribute to the successful realisation of the noble Lord’s ambition to have an amendment on commencement.

I want to make two final comments because I know the Committee has been working hard in offering scrutiny to the Bill, but before I do so I wish to thank the Ministers, and indeed the whole team, who have tried to answer on what was on some occasions an impossible situation. Earlier the noble Lord, Lord Bates, aptly commented on how fast things have been moving, and I think the Ministers have had a degree of sympathy from the Committee. However, this is serious. As the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, said, businesses need urgency as they operate. They need urgency in their day-to-day practices but also when it comes to knowing what the Government’s position is.

In advance of the next stage, if there is one, it is helpful that all the usual channels are here. I do not think the Committee needs any reminding of the decision of this House, very clearly stated, that greater information is needed on both the Government’s policy and intentions on how it sees trade agreements being put in place, as well as the relationship with the devolved Administrations. If that is not forthcoming, the House has sent a clear signal that there will not be a Report stage. However, on the basis that there will be, the information that is needed on the current position on the intended trade agreements needs to be forthcoming. There also needs to be clarity on—if we are going to be crashing out on WTO rules—the position of operating on non-certified WTO rules.

The relationship with the devolved Administrations, while a little clearer, needs more fleshing out. This is not just about constitutional courtesies with the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments and Northern Ireland authorities. Trade agreements could disproportionately affect parts of the United Kingdom, which will affect livelihoods and public services in those areas. They need to be not just consulted, but involved. Contrary to the Government simply wanting continuity agreements for trading relationships, we also want to see the rolling over of the same amount of parliamentary scrutiny that the European Parliament would afford trade agreements, which this Parliament will be denied unless this Bill is amended.

Finally, we need to be looking forward to the future. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and others, have made very constructive contributions. If we are to have a customs arrangement—which, if it covers the majority of our trade with our biggest market, will be a customs union—then the clarity about how that will be conducted will be important. While we are at the end of the Committee stage, I hope that the Minister has received strong signals that there are still questions that need to be answered. Those answers need to be forthcoming before this House will consider the Report stage.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, did me a great favour by alleging that I had partial paternity of this amendment, but I will leave that to one side. It is a very simple amendment, setting in statute the view that has been expressed twice by this House, by massive majorities, and once in the House of Commons last week: that leaving the European Union on 29 March by default without an agreement should be excluded. That is what this amendment proposes to do. It does not prevent this Act, as it would be, coming into effect in the event of the meaningful process being successfully completed in the other place. Nor does it do so if the other place should, in the extraordinarily unlikely circumstances, actually decide that we should leave without a deal. However, it rules out leaving by default as a condition for the entry into force of the provisions in this Act. No more needs to be said, and I have a feeling that we may wish to debate that rather more decisively on Report.

[Lord Lansley]

My Lords, I am speaking on behalf of my noble friend Lady Altmann, who is unable to be here and asked me to extend her apologies. I think she would have shared the view of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that Amendment 98 would not prevent our exit without an agreement, which is the default situation under the statute law as it remains, but it would certainly enable one to put into the equation consideration of the damage and chaos that would result if one were to leave by default without an agreement and without the statute book and continuity agreements being in place. Both Houses would have to think hard about that. It is a contest between different visions of what kind of chaos might ensue. Unfortunately, that is essentially where we are.

My noble friends on the Front Bench have done a grand job, not least in keeping us on track, wherever possible, in understanding the importance of getting this legislation into the right structure rather than being distracted too often and too far into discussion of Brexit. I think we agreed at Second Reading that the Bill is occasioned by Brexit but is not really about it; nor, technically, is it about the future processes and structures of free trade agreements. Their approach has enabled us to have what I think will be some interesting, positive and constructive discussions on Report, arising out of this Committee, when we can really focus on one or two specifics. My noble friends will have been given an indication of what kinds of considerations will be important to the House in thinking about free trade agreements as they come along.